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Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 234 1 IN THE CIRCUIT COURT FOR PINELLAS COUNTY, FLORIDA 2 CASE NO. 00-5682-CI-11 3 DELL LIEBREICH, as Personal 4 Representative of the ESTATE OF LISA McPHERSON, 5 6 Plaintiff, 7 vs. VOLUME 3 8 CHURCH OF SCIENTOLOGY FLAG SERVICE ORGANIZATION, JANIS 9 JOHNSON, ALAIN KARTUZINSKI and DAVID HOUGHTON, D.D.S., 10 Defendants. 11 _______________________________________/ 12 13 PROCEEDINGS: Defendants' Ominbus Motion for Terminating Sanctions and Other Relief. 14 DATE: May 6 , 2002. Afternoon Session. 15 PLACE: Courtroom B, Judicial Buiding 16 St. Petersburg, Florida. 17 BEFORE: Honorable Susan F. Schaeffer, Circuit Judge. 18 REPORTED BY: Lynne J. Ide RMR. 19 Deputy Official Court Reporter, Sixth Judicial Circuit of Florida. 20 21 22 23 24 25
235 1 APPEARANCES: 2 MR. KENNAN G. DANDAR DANDAR & DANDAR 3 5340 West Kennedy Blvd., Suite 201 Tampa, FL 33602 4 Attorney for Plaintiff. 5 MR. LUKE CHARLES LIROT LUKE CHARLES LIROT, PA 6 112 N East Street, Street, Suite B Tampa, FL 33602-4108 7 Attorney for Plaintiff. 8 MR. KENDRICK MOXON MOXON & KOBRIN 9 1100 Cleveland Street, Suite 900 Clearwater, FL 33755 10 Attorney for Church of Scientology Flag Service Organization. 11 MS. HELENA KOBRIN 12 MOXON & KOBRIN 1100 Cleveland Street, Suite 900 13 Clearwater, FL 33755 Attorney for David Houghton. 14 MR. LEE FUGATE and 15 MR. MORRIS WEINBERG, JR. and ZUCKERMAN, SPAEDER 16 101 E. Kennedy Blvd, Suite 1200 Tampa, FL 33602-5147 17 Attorneys for Church of Scientology Flag Service Organization. 18 MICHAEL LEE HERTZBERG 19 740 Broadway, Fifth Floor New York, New York 10003 20 Attorney for Church of Scientology Flag Service Organization. 21 MR. ERIC M. LIEBERMAN 22 RABINOWITZ, BOUDIN, STANDARD 740 Broadway at Astor Place 23 New York, NY 10003-9518 Attorney for Church of Scientology Flag Service 24 Organization. 25
236 1 APPEARANCES: (Continued) 2 MR. THOMAS H. MCGOWAN MCGOWAN & SUAREZ, LLP 3 150 2nd Avenue North, Suite 870 St. Petersburg, FL 33701-3381 4 Attorney for Stacy Brooks. 5 ALSO PRESENT: 6 Ms. Donna West 7 Ms. Dell Liebreich Mr. Rick Spector 8 Mr. Allan Cartwright Ms. Lara Cartwright 9 Ms. Sarah Heller Mr. Ben Shaw 10 Ms. Joyce Earl 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
237 1 THE COURT: Okay. Let's do a few little 2 preliminary things here. 3 In the event we don't finish tomorrow, I have 4 two trial weeks coming up, next week and the week 5 after. Both of those weeks I'm available five days 6 a week. I expect to get this thing done. 7 So -- yes? 8 MR. DANDAR: Judge, we have, of course, 9 scheduled a slew of expert depositions. 10 THE COURT: Sure. 11 MR. DANDAR: One of them is tomorrow, Joyce T. 12 Eastridge, the defendant's economist. 13 THE COURT: Tomorrow? 14 MR. DANDAR: Tomorrow. My brother can cover 15 that deposition. They have a dozen lawyers over 16 there and they canceled it on their own because of 17 this hearing. And I would request that you order 18 one of them to appear for that deposition so there 19 is no delay in preparing for trial. 20 THE COURT: Why can't one of you-all cover that 21 deposition? 22 MR. HERTZBERG: Your Honor, for a factual 23 record, we received a notice from Mr. Dandar last 24 week that tomorrow would be taken up with this 25 hearing. He actually noticed this particular
238 1 hearing. When we got that, I wrote him a letter 2 immediately saying that, in light of that, we were 3 assuming that deposition was not going forward. And 4 that witness now is not -- she's not available. 5 THE COURT: Why not? 6 MR. HERTZBERG: She's on call, I believe, in a 7 case in West Palm Beach. And, you know, we never 8 got a response from that letter. I sent that letter 9 to Mr. Dandar immediately last week when he said 10 that tomorrow would be taken up with this hearing. 11 And so far as I know, although I have not been back 12 in my office in New York since then, I have no word 13 that any kind of response to my letter, which was 14 faxed -- 15 THE COURT: Call that witness and see if he's 16 available. If he's just on call, he ought to be 17 available, especially if that trial doesn't -- he 18 has somebody that can cover it, and you have a slew 19 of lawyers to cover it. I only need one here and 20 let's get it done. 21 MR. HERTZBERG: To be candid with you, at this 22 point now we have not had any preparation with that 23 witness. 24 THE COURT: Well, take a day and prepare, 25 whatever.
239 1 MR. HERTZBERG: Your Honor, I invited 2 Mr. Dandar to give me alternative dates. We'll 3 reschedule it as soon as we can, but we are -- we 4 are not going to be ready to go forward tomorrow. 5 And I sent him a very precise letter on this exact 6 topic. And never got a response. So we just 7 assumed it was off. 8 THE COURT: Who accepted that -- who had set 9 the deposition? 10 MR. DANDAR: Pardon me? 11 THE COURT: Who accepted that -- who had set 12 that deposition? 13 MR. DANDAR: I did. We sent it with a big 14 conference with Judge Beach. 15 THE COURT: And you unilaterally canceled it. 16 MR. HERTZBERG: He did by sending the notice 17 out. He sent us a notice saying there would be a 18 hearing that would take up last Thursday, Friday, 19 today and tomorrow. And I sent him a letter. I 20 wish I had a copy with me; I don't believe I do. 21 But I sent him a letter saying, "In light of your 22 notice, we assume we'll be rescheduling this in the 23 future. In fact, that we'll be rescheduling it. 24 Would you please notify me what days you are 25 available so I can reschedule it with you."
240 1 In the interim, frankly, I told the witness 2 that we had a hearing that was going to supersede 3 her deposition, that I have not heard back from 4 Mr. Dandar, and she sent me a notice saying that she 5 was on call for this case in West Palm Beach. 6 THE COURT: Counselor, call her. See if she's 7 available tomorrow. If she's available tomorrow, 8 one of you -- surely when the only possible issue 9 here is net accumulations to an aunt who ought to be 10 able to recover, it ought to take a two pages to get 11 it done. If she's on call, go where she is, do what 12 is necessary, try to get it done. There is no 13 reason to delay that. 14 MR. HERTZBERG: Okay. 15 THE COURT: Okay? Now, if the witness can't be 16 available because she's been called off, she made 17 other plans, there is not much we can do about that. 18 MR. HERTZBERG: Right. 19 MR. FUGATE: Your Honor, on a similar note, I 20 sent a letter to Mr. Lirot and Mr. Dandar today. 21 The deposition -- based on what you just said, the 22 deposition that we had scheduled for Monday, 23 May 13th, with Dr. Bernard Knight, the fellow from 24 Wales, he's broken his leg in several places and 25 they inserted a plate and pins in his ankle and he
241 1 notified us he -- we were flying him over to 2 accommodate counsel, and he can't come on Monday. 3 So we would have, I assume, Monday available if the 4 Court wanted to use Monday. 5 THE COURT: I have two weeks. I plan to go 6 starting that Monday until we're done. You all have 7 a slew of lawyers. You make do. You know, there 8 are two of you-all, Mr. Dandar, you don't need to 9 sit here. You can be out doing whatever you have to 10 do. Mr. Lirot can handle this hearing. Whatever 11 you have scheduled, you do it. I'm just telling you 12 come that Monday I have two weeks, ten days, and I 13 plan to finish this hearing. 14 MR. FUGATE: I understand what you said now. I 15 was just going to say that is available, but we'll 16 be here. 17 MR. WEINBERG: The Monday you are talking about 18 is the 13th? Is that the Monday? 19 THE COURT: Yes, the 13th. 20 MR. WEINBERG: All right. 21 THE COURT: You know, frankly, if -- let me 22 make sure I'm going to be available all those two 23 weeks. I am. So if you all have something 24 scheduled one of those days, you know -- I mean, if 25 it is something you all need to be at, you have a
242 1 deposition scheduled, because I just learned that we 2 have a slew of senior judge coverage. So, quite 3 frankly, if it weren't that I have a hearing 4 tomorrow and the next that I just have to cover, 5 because it is kind of one of those continued 6 hearings where I have already done two or three days 7 of it, we'll keep going after tomorrow. 8 MR. DANDAR: We actually had a hearing set at 9 1:30 today to strike witnesses they want to depose. 10 That would also free up more time during this two 11 trial weeks. One is Tom Haverty, who you saw 12 sitting here last week. He's one of my 13 investigators and consultants. They want to take 14 his deposition. He's protected under work product. 15 THE COURT: Why do you want to take his 16 deposition? At least -- maybe you might want to 17 take it at a later proceedings, but why in the 18 wrongful death? He's an investigator or something 19 working with Mr. Dandar. I'm not going to allow 20 that. 21 MR. MOXON: Your Honor, we were prepared to 22 argue that, but I was going to tell you, Mr. Haverty 23 was the one that organized some of the experiments. 24 He did the experiment with respect to the Jeep 25 crash. He bought the Jeep, he had the Jeep. There
243 1 are issues about the embolism and the bruise to her 2 knee. And Mr. Haverty was the one specifically 3 knowledgeable about that, worked with the accident 4 reconstruction man, and apparently actually owns 5 this Jeep, too. He also is the one that set up this 6 other experiment, which may be moot now. 7 THE COURT: Which one is that? 8 MR. MOXON: The bugs. Cockroaches. 9 THE COURT: Oh, I think that is moot. 10 MR. MOXON: Yes, he also has been, for quite 11 some time, has been taking photographs and doing 12 whatnot. He has been taking photographs of counsel 13 and going to some places where the depositions were 14 and -- and outside surreptitiously taking 15 photographs. That might be an issue. 16 THE COURT: What -- how might that be an issue 17 for deposition? It might be an issue for the Court, 18 but it is hardly an issue to take a lawyer's 19 consultant's or a lawyer's investigator's 20 deposition. 21 MR. MOXON: What might be left is the accident 22 reconstruction -- 23 THE COURT: I don't think I'll allow a lawyer's 24 investigator to be deposed until you have something 25 you'll allow him to be called for.
244 1 MR. MOXON: We'll take it up then. We can hold 2 in abeyance. We already indicated we were not going 3 to take his deposition until this matter was -- 4 THE COURT: I'm telling you now, unless you can 5 come into court and show me some cause other than 6 just he might have -- I mean, all investigators have 7 some knowledge about certain things. You just don't 8 get to take their deposition. 9 So his deposition is out, unless you can show 10 me something really good as to why it should be 11 taken. 12 MR. MOXON: Fair enough. 13 THE COURT: Talk to their accident 14 reconstructionist or some piece of the puzzle that 15 he just simply can't fill in, I imagine we can get 16 it to you in some other fashion, like an affidavit 17 or something. 18 You don't depose lawyers' investigators, 19 lawyers' secretaries, lawyers and those type of 20 people. That isn't done, should not be done, and 21 it's not going to be done unless there is some super 22 reason. I haven't heard one. 23 MR. FUGATE: At a break we can get together and 24 determine what is on everyone's calendar and get it 25 resolved so we can abide by your ruling.
245 1 THE COURT: Let's just assume we'll start on 2 Monday, and unless I hear something you have set, 3 we'll just go until we are done. 4 MR. DANDAR: The other deposition they 5 scheduled two days in Dallas, Texas. 6 THE COURT: The lady that will work as far as 7 this -- if this lady is unavailable because you have 8 been called off, I hope it doesn't take ten days. 9 MR. DANDAR: I hope not. 10 THE COURT: Yes. 11 MR. DANDAR: But the other thing they 12 scheduled, which we noticed for today, is that they 13 want to take the half brother and sister of Lisa 14 McPherson from her father's first marriage who have 15 not seen Lisa McPherson since she was a baby. 16 THE COURT: Mr. Dandar, file motion to exclude 17 that. 18 MR. DANDAR: I did. 19 THE COURT: Then I'll hear it, and unless they 20 have some awfully good reason, that won't be 21 allowed. 22 MR. DANDAR: It was set for 1:30. I just 23 wanted to let you know that. 24 THE COURT: Today? 25 MR. DANDAR: Yes.
246 1 THE COURT: Let's hear it. 2 MR. MOXON: I didn't see any such notice. We 3 have not subpoenaed them. We have not asked for 4 out-of-state -- we haven't received his motion, 5 either. 6 MR. DANDAR: I didn't file the motion. 7 THE COURT: Then in that case, we can't hear 8 it. 9 MR. DANDAR: I'll set it for Monday. 10 THE COURT: You can set it for next week if you 11 want. 12 MR. DANDAR: All right. 13 THE COURT: We need to get this thing down to 14 where, if it's going to be tried, depositions are 15 being taken of people who know something about the 16 case. It doesn't sound like those folks would. 17 I also want to inform you that if this case 18 goes on to trial, that we had kind of scheduled this 19 tentatively for the June trial docket which would 20 have been starting on the second week. I know we 21 also talked kind of tentatively about using that for 22 motions and pretrial matters and stuff like that. 23 And that is still fine with me. 24 I thought I should tell you that the next week, 25 I think that is the week -- yes, the next week, I
247 1 have to be in Tallahassee to address the Supreme 2 Court on the 18th. And that requires me to go to 3 Tallahassee the night before. Which means that kind 4 of messes up my day. So I'm going to be sort of 5 tentatively unavailable the 17th and 18th. I have 6 got a meeting in Naples -- I don't remember where it 7 is, wherever the circuit judges conference is -- 8 Naples, all day the 21st of that week. And I'm 9 going to be on a panel on the 24th of that week. I 10 am moving on the 28th of that week. 11 So I'm kind of giving you just an idea that 12 you'll have -- you all kind of blocked for two to 13 four months for this, so what I'm telling you, we're 14 going to have time in June. I won't get started 15 with the jury until we can get started and go, 16 unless we just want to bring in 50 at a time and 17 take the days that we've got and do it kind of 18 piecemeal. 19 MR. FUGATE: Judge, I would ask we not do 20 anything on the 17th at all, because as I indicated, 21 my daughter will get married on the 15th, which is a 22 Saturday. 23 THE COURT: We'll keep the 17th open. We have 24 the 17th open, the 18th open, the 21st -- well, 25 open -- closed, unavailable, you know, 21st is
248 1 closed, 24th is closed. 2 MR. FUGATE: The 28th is the Friday? 3 THE COURT: The 28th is closed. And really 4 there is -- 5 MR. DANDAR: Is this all in June? 6 THE COURT: All in June. So our hope of 7 getting this started in June -- everything started 8 falling into this June mess. 9 So I think what we'll do is say this. I think 10 we'll kind of assume that we have got June in 11 between motions that we'll still have, things that 12 are still going on, maybe depositions that -- that 13 you haven't had a chance to take. We'll have days 14 where we can fit things in, but we won't plan on 15 actually starting the trial in June. Just got too 16 many odds and ends. 17 So if this case ends up in trial, maybe we can 18 start July. I bet you -- I don't know if we have 19 the 5th off. Is the 5th a court holiday? Does 20 anybody know? 21 MR. WEINBERG: Do you know what day of the week 22 the 4th is? 23 THE COURT: The 4th is a Thursday. A lot of 24 times the 5th becomes a court holiday. That is all 25 right. It might take us a good four or five days to
249 1 get a jury. So maybe when we have our case 2 management conference we can settle this down a 3 little bit and see what days we have and what have 4 you. 5 But as I'm looking at this and as I'm hearing 6 this, it may be very hard for us to get much done. 7 It's the week of the 10th -- see, that is a good 8 week for me, and it's probably a good week for 9 you-all, but the problem is, I said we pretty much 10 would take that week and finish up anything we still 11 have hanging on. 12 So just be aware that the month of June is 13 going to be fairly flexible, and you all will have 14 some time to work on your case. Unless you get 15 bogged down taking depositions up until the last 16 minute, you can kind of spend some of that time 17 preparing your case. 18 MR. WEINBERG: If you recall, the beginning of 19 June I would be gone to my son's graduation from 20 college up in Massachusetts, but that will be okay, 21 basically, what you just said. 22 THE COURT: Yes, that will work. So I'm just 23 kind of advising you of all those little problems. 24 I wrote down a couple of things -- so I want to 25 start next week -- I think I'll go ahead and do my
250 1 regular calendar. We'll just go this afternoon, all 2 day tomorrow, see where we end up. If we can finish 3 Ms. Brooks and Mr. Minton, that is the end of your 4 case, I think you said. 5 MR. FUGATE: We've got some documents. But 6 other than that, that will be the live witness 7 testimony. 8 THE COURT: We can at least finish that part of 9 it. 10 MR. DANDAR: And the defense witnesses, 11 unfortunately, after tomorrow, are gone and will not 12 be available again until the 15th. 13 THE COURT: Where are they gone? 14 MR. DANDAR: Out of state. Jessie Prince will 15 be gone Wednesday to go to California on the 16 Wollersheim Scientology case, and Peter Alexander is 17 on the road after tomorrow. Those are two key 18 witnesses. And they will not be back until the 15th 19 or after the 15th. 20 THE COURT: Well, as I said, I have the week of 21 the 10th and the week of the 17th. 22 MR. DANDAR: All right. 23 THE COURT: We have a lot of senior judge days 24 left all, of which have to be used by July, so I'm 25 in a real good position of getting all I want.
251 1 I told you all that -- this is only to correct 2 the record -- that I had never held but one 3 defendant in contempt, and that is true. But I did 4 hold the St. Petersburg Times in contempt once. A 5 reporter from the Times. Probably the only judge to 6 ever successfully hold the St. Pete Times in 7 contempt. It was affirmed on appeal, and they 8 withdrew their cert position for the Florida Supreme 9 Court. It is not listed as the St. Pete Times. I 10 didn't make the case against them. I made it 11 against the reporter. But I had every Times editor 12 up to the top here for the hearing. You'll -- I 13 didn't put her in jail; I suspended her sentence and 14 fined her. 15 But I forgot about that, so I actually had two 16 contempt cases that had to do with -- she had agreed 17 with me not to publish something and the very next 18 day it was in a big story and I couldn't allow that 19 to happen. 20 I want to know from Ms. Brooks' attorney, you 21 are here, as I indicated at some point in time in 22 this hearing, it's very difficult for the Court to 23 hear witnesses admit they have committed perjury. 24 And I'm involved in all kinds of hearings. Because 25 of that, and not consider orders to show cause,
252 1 should I file an order to show cause, I need to know 2 whether you will accept service for your client. 3 MR. McGOWAN: I shall, your Honor. 4 THE COURT: Mr. Howie, will you accept service 5 from your client? 6 MR. HOWIE: Yes, your Honor, we will. 7 THE COURT: I can only go that far now because 8 they are the only two that admitted to me committing 9 perjury. If we have more than that that I decided 10 have, we'll go from there. 11 So as I said, I don't have the time right now 12 to worry with it, but if that time comes, I'll just 13 mail it to you and you'll accept service if that is 14 okay, rather than -- 15 MR. McGOWAN: Right. 16 THE COURT: I got to thinking about it, that is 17 what I did for the Times. I called and had them -- 18 said, "Would you like me to mail this to you, or 19 just hand it to you." He said yes, he would accept 20 service. 21 Now, the last thing I want to do, I want to get 22 this hearing finished so you-all know whether you 23 have a trial or not, who will try the case, so I can 24 make arrangements to get this thing done. And I 25 think that would be good for all of the lawyers, and
253 1 I have already told you that. 2 So with that in mind, Ms. Brooks is on the 3 stand. And Mr. Lirot -- 4 MR. McGOWAN: Your Honor, may it please the 5 Court -- 6 THE COURT: I'm sorry? 7 MR. McGOWAN: Request to produce had been 8 furnished on Ms. Brooks, and the Court instructed us 9 to comply with it as of today, which we've done, and 10 I can file the response to the Court. 11 I wanted to advise the Court that we have 12 complied, and probably overcomplied, as far as 13 documents -- we attached a lawsuit which is not 14 exactly responsive, but in an -- 15 THE COURT: Is that the notice to produce filed 16 in the other case? 17 MR. McGOWAN: It was filed in this case -- 18 THE COURT: The only notice to produce I saw 19 was one filed by the plaintiffs in this case, and I 20 thought it was -- 21 MR. McGOWAN: It could be in the other case. 22 It is Church versus Dell Liebreich, you are right. 23 And it was sought -- it sought production of various 24 confidentiality agreements, any evidence of 25 blackmail or extortion by the Church.
254 1 THE COURT: Yes, and I think they meant for it 2 to be filed here, but I think they styled it in the 3 other case. So I don't have a problem if you want 4 to file your original here since this was the day of 5 return and you are here and then send a copy up 6 there. 7 MR. McGOWAN: Fine. That is what we've done. 8 THE COURT: Okay. 9 MR. McGOWAN: Just so the Court knows, two of 10 the items that were requested -- 11 THE COURT: First of all, is that all right 12 with you-all? 13 MR. DANDAR: Yes. Yes, it is. 14 THE COURT: All right. 15 MR. McGOWAN: One of the items requested was 16 Stacy Brooks' personal income tax returns for the 17 past five years. As a practical matter, they are in 18 Atlanta where she lives. 19 As you know, she was here Friday, and it's a 20 30-day request, so she couldn't get them. 21 We also objected to the production of those. 22 We don't know what -- whether they calculate or not 23 calculate it will lead to discovery of admissible 24 evidence, at least for purpose of this hearing, and 25 also we think it is an invasion of privacy,
255 1 burdensome and oppressive. 2 In terms of the tax returns of the Lisa 3 McPherson Trust, likewise there was one filed for 4 one year, and there was another that would be due 5 for 2001 that has not been even prepared, so it 6 doesn't exist. That return is in Atlanta -- 7 THE COURT: We can't hear that all. Just go 8 ahead and file what you have. 9 MR. McGOWAN: I just wanted to tell you what we 10 didn't comply with and what we objected to. 11 THE COURT: Did you make a copy for me, by any 12 chance? 13 MR. McGOWAN: This is the original. I -- 14 THE COURT: Counsel, somebody needs to make a 15 copy for me. 16 MR. McGOWAN: Okay. 17 THE COURT: Since it has to do directly with 18 this hearing. Okay? 19 Madam clerk, you want to take this? Would you 20 rather have it since it is styled in that case filed 21 up there? It might be better thing to do, file it 22 up there and copy here? 23 MR. DANDAR: Either way. 24 THE COURT: Madam clerk, we can get it stamped 25 in today so it shows whatever is complied with is
256 1 complied with as of today and then make a copy for 2 this case. 3 THE CLERK: Yes. 4 THE COURT: Send the original up to Clearwater, 5 but file it today. And while you are making the 6 copy for here, maybe you can make me an extra copy. 7 THE CLERK: I will. 8 THE COURT: Will you do that? 9 THE CLERK: Yes, I will. 10 THE COURT: And get it to me by tomorrow? 11 THE CLERK: Yes. 12 MR. McGOWAN: The other thing is housekeeping. 13 There was a scrivener's error in Ms. Brooks' 14 affidavit. Basically Paragraph 18, it could have 15 been misread, it had payments to two individuals. 16 She just clarified the meaning of the sentence. 17 It's not very substantive, but I wanted to file that 18 with the Court while she was on the stand. 19 THE COURT: All right. 20 MR. FUGATE: One housekeeping matter -- 21 THE COURT: Wait a minute, let's see if he's 22 done. 23 MR. FUGATE: Sorry. 24 THE COURT: If he's done, we'll go on to the 25 next person with housekeeping matters.
257 1 MR. McGOWAN: That is all I have. 2 THE COURT: All right. 3 MR. FUGATE: I understand after I left that you 4 were handed up a copy of all of Mr. Minton's 5 depositions. I have a copy which I'll hand up to 6 the Court and tell the Court and counsel they are 7 all of Dell Liebreich's depositions, in case the 8 Court needed those. 9 THE COURT: I may have hers. I'm not sure. 10 MR. FUGATE: If you don't, I'll leave this up 11 here, if I can approach. 12 THE COURT: That is good. I don't know if that 13 contained all of Mr. Minton's depositions. It 14 contained all of the ones up through an April 8 15 date, but I don't know if he's been deposed after 16 that, because it seemed there was one -- supposed to 17 be one deposition where he was to purge himself of 18 this -- of this perjury and it was not in there. 19 MR. FUGATE: I think that was the hearing -- 20 the sentencing hearing on Friday. 21 THE COURT: So there was no deposition before 22 the hearing? 23 MR. DANDAR: There was -- 24 MR. FUGATE: There was -- 25 MR. DANDAR: There is a deposition on April 8
258 1 in Wally Pope's office of Mr. Minton. They didn't 2 finish, and they were supposed to continue that on 3 April 9 in the afternoon after the hearing. There 4 was a hearing before Judge Baird to purge Mr. Minton 5 of his contempt. My brother showed up at Wally 6 Pope's office at one o'clock or so for the 7 deposition, and Wally Pope told him it was canceled. 8 So we never got the chance to cross-examine 9 Mr. Minton before the Judge Baird hearing went 10 forward on disqualification. 11 THE COURT: Okay. Well, then, I do have that 12 deposition. And that is the last -- it was not 13 really very much related to this case. 14 MR. DANDAR: Nothing at all. 15 THE COURT: LMT -- 16 MR. DANDAR: Nothing at all. 17 MR. FUGATE: I stand corrected. You have that 18 one, and then the other testimony I think is the 19 9th, which is the sentencing before Judge Baird. 20 THE COURT: I have all that. 21 MR. FUGATE: Okay. 22 THE COURT: Okay. Any other housekeeping 23 matters? No? Okay. Let me look through my notes 24 here. And you may inquire. 25 MR. LIROT: Thank you, judge. May it please
259 1 the Court, counsel. 2 CROSS-EXAMINATION 3 BY MR. LIROT: 4 Q Ms. Brooks, I'm Luke Lirot. I want to ask you 5 some questions about some of your earlier testimony and some 6 of the affidavits that you filed in this case. 7 And I would like to start off by asking you about 8 the meetings that you testified to relative to trying to 9 settle -- reach global settlement with the Church of 10 Scientology. When did you first consider doing that? 11 A Oh, I believe the subject first came up during a 12 series of conversations that I had with Mr. Howie, perhaps 13 in January -- probably that began in January. 14 Q January of 2002? 15 A Yes. 16 Q This year? 17 A Yes. I think so. 18 Q All right. And prior to that you didn't have any 19 interest in trying to reach any global settlement on any of 20 these issues involving the Church of Scientology? 21 A Mmm, I believe it was in January when -- when I 22 spoke to Mr. Howie as I began to -- 23 Q Okay. Was Mr. -- 24 THE COURT: Wait a minute, she may not have 25 been done. She said, "When I began to," and --
260 1 MR. LIROT: I'm sorry, Judge. 2 THE COURT: Had you finished? 3 THE WITNESS: I had. I think I'm taking too 4 long, your Honor. But when I began to think that 5 that might be a resolution of this situation. 6 THE COURT: Okay. 7 BY MR. LIROT: 8 Q All right. Was Mr. Howie your counsel at that 9 point? 10 A No. He wasn't. He was Mr. Minton's counsel. 11 Q Okay. Why would you be getting in touch with 12 Mr. Howie? 13 A Well, at that time, Mr. Minton -- I think I 14 testified on Friday, Mr. Minton was very distraught and very 15 upset and depressed about the situation that he found 16 himself in. And he was not being very communicative with 17 anyone, including his own attorney. And I was very 18 concerned about -- about him. 19 Q Okay. 20 A And so I was speaking to Mr. Howie about my 21 concerns. 22 Q How would you know all this about Mr. Minton's 23 distraught nature and I guess what would clearly appear to 24 be some intimate knowledge about his personal feelings? 25 A Well, I live with him.
261 1 Q Okay. And what is that living arrangement? 2 A Mmm, well, for the most part, I'm at his house in 3 New Hampshire, and we also now have a house in Atlanta. But 4 we haven't spent very much time there. So the house had to 5 have some work done on it in Atlanta. So for the most part, 6 we live in New Hampshire. 7 THE COURT: I think what he's trying to get at, 8 nobody is trying to be embarrassing here, but are 9 you-all living together in some sort of a friendship 10 relationship? Or is it more than that? 11 THE WITNESS: Your Honor, I love him and we 12 live together in a relationship of two people who 13 love each other. 14 THE COURT: Okay. So it's an intimate 15 relationship, when you talk about those type of 16 things? 17 THE WITNESS: Yes. 18 BY MR. LIROT: 19 Q How did that relationship evolve? When did you 20 first meet Mr. Minton? 21 A In September of 1997. My husband at the time, 22 Vaughn Young, made a posting on the Internet in which he 23 described a situation that we were in in which Scientology 24 was basically harassing us in ways that was causing us to 25 feel that we were going to need to stop doing any
262 1 anti-Scientology work. 2 Q What were they doing to you? 3 A Oh, they -- well, at the time, I had a cat 4 sanctuary, or at least the beginnings of a cat sanctuary. 5 And I was -- and it sort of had grown more than I had meant 6 for -- not more than I meant for it to, but more than I 7 planned. So I had more animals in this house that we were 8 renting than the residential regulations allowed. 9 And it was my belief, and my husband's belief, 10 that the Scientology was responsible for a number of 11 anonymous phone calls being made to animal control, and then 12 after that calls that were being made to the zoning 13 department. Because the animal control calls -- you know, 14 animal control would come out every day because they had 15 these complaints. And the house was really clean and -- and 16 it was okay. So then phone calls were made to the zoning 17 department. And, you know, we were violating the zoning 18 regulations. 19 So our landlord -- 20 THE COURT: This is a lot more than I need to 21 know about this. 22 MR. LIROT: I think you are right, your Honor. 23 BY MR. LIROT: 24 Q I appreciate your thorough nature -- 25 THE COURT: To say nothing for the fact I read
263 1 it in Mr. Minton's deposition so I already knew 2 about it. 3 MR. LIROT: Well, I didn't know about it, 4 Judge. 5 BY MR. LIROT: 6 Q In any event, this cat sanctuary, was this just 7 something you did as a hobby or did you get paid for that 8 or -- 9 A Mmm, it was something that I really cared deeply 10 about. In fact, I'm still involved in that kind of work 11 with animals. And -- 12 Q My question was, were you getting any money for 13 it? Or was this just -- I mean, did you sell any of the 14 cats? 15 A Well, it wasn't a situation where the cats would 16 be sold. It was -- well, I guess it is semantics, but when 17 a cat would be adopted -- because what we would do would be 18 rescue a cat and find a good home for it. And so -- 19 Q Did you get any money -- 20 A Yes. 21 Q -- at all? 22 A So -- 23 Q You were making money? 24 A So when a person would adopt a cat, they would pay 25 a fee for the cat.
264 1 Q Okay. Well, I think in your affidavit you said 2 that during that period of time your sole source of income 3 was drafting what was referred to, I guess, as 4 anti-Scientology affidavits. 5 A I believe I said it was my primary source of 6 income. 7 Q You didn't say it was your sole source of income? 8 A Well, let me check. 9 Q It's all right. The affidavit will speak for 10 itself. And I'm not trying to pick on you about -- you 11 know, I'm sure whatever you made from selling a cat here and 12 there is probably not an extensive amount of money. I'm 13 just trying to check the facts. 14 A I'm not seeing it right now, but I believe I said 15 primary. 16 Q All right. Now, let me backtrack a little bit. 17 So in 1997, you had an opportunity -- or I guess you said 18 your husband at that time, Mr. Young, had posted something 19 on the Internet that apparently Mr. Minton responded to. 20 What was that? 21 A Yes, it was a very lengthy posting in which he 22 described our circumstance. And basically it was meant as 23 an explanation for people as to why we were going to go -- 24 become inactive in our anti-Scientology work. 25 Q Why you were going to become inactive?
265 1 A Why we were going to become inactive. Yes. 2 Q So as I understand it then, there was some 3 announcement that you and Mr. Young, who had been 4 Scientologists for I think what you testified to as 15 years 5 for you, 20 years for him? 6 A 15 years. 7 Q You both left Scientology? 8 A In 1989. 9 Q I think that clearly there was some discontent 10 after you -- 11 A We were very disgusted, yes. 12 Q Why? 13 A Mmm, we both had some really, really bad 14 experiences during the time we were in Scientology. 15 Q Okay. Now, I mean, I guess my question would be, 16 you had bad experiences, then your testimony was that 17 lawyers would track you down and get you to sign these 18 affidavits, or -- 19 A No. That wasn't my testimony. 20 Q Well, you prepared a number of affidavits. 21 A Yes, I did. 22 Q How many do you think you prepared? 23 A Oh, probably, I would estimate, as many as 10. 24 THE COURT: Excuse me just a second. I'm up 25 here trying to listen, but I'm getting frustrated.
266 1 I can't seem to put my hand on Ms. Brooks' main 2 affidavit. I have one here that is four pages, but 3 that was the first one. 4 Then we had -- 5 MR. LIROT: Judge, I think it is Exhibit 72, if 6 I'm not mistaken, of the omnibus motion. 7 THE COURT: All right. But I had another copy 8 of it, too. 9 THE WITNESS: Do you want to borrow mine, your 10 Honor? 11 THE COURT: No. I'll find it. All right. I 12 got it. Go on ahead. 13 MR. LIROT: All right. 14 BY MR. LIROT: 15 Q Let me bring you back to 2002, Ms. Brooks. I'll 16 ask you some questions about the past later. 17 2002, apparently Mr. Minton is distraught. You 18 get a hold of Mr. Howie. Didn't Mr. Minton have Mr. Merrett 19 as counsel at that point in time, John Merrett? 20 A In January of 2002? I believe not. If he hadn't 21 formally discharged him as counsel, he was not considering 22 him to be counsel at that time, as I recall. 23 Q All right. So January 2002, you call Mr. Howie, I 24 guess on behalf of Mr. Minton. And at that point in time, 25 you indicated you wanted to reach some global settlement
267 1 with Scientology? 2 A Mmm, I don't believe that that is how the 3 conversation went. But we did -- Mr. Howie actually brought 4 up the possibility of settlement in the breach of contract 5 case. And when he brought that possibility up, I said to 6 him, "I know Scientology won't settle just one case with 7 Mr. Minton. If -- if you -- Mmm, if you approach them to 8 settle just one case, I guarantee you that they will come 9 back and say they want a global settlement." 10 Then Mr. Howie asked me to explain to him what 11 that meant. And I told him what I thought it meant. 12 Q Okay. 13 THE COURT: Mr. Howie really hadn't been 14 involved in this case up until then. Is that right? 15 THE WITNESS: Mmm, I don't believe so. I think 16 he had been just on the breach case at that point. 17 But -- I don't know if there was anything going on 18 in regard to Mr. Minton in the case at that time. 19 MR. WEINBERG: Your Honor, here is a copy if 20 you want. 21 THE COURT: Thanks. I finally got to it, 22 but -- is that an extra one? I'll take it. 23 MR. WEINBERG: Yes, that is an extra one. 24 THE COURT: Thank you. The reason I was 25 looking for mine, I read it and I made some notes on
268 1 it, but, you know, I'll just have to make new ones. 2 Go ahead. 3 BY MR. LIROT: 4 Q Do you know how it was Mr. Minton came to retain 5 Mr. Howie as his counsel? 6 A Oh, yes. 7 Q Was he referred by Mr. Dandar? Did Mr. Dandar 8 help him find Mr. Howie? 9 A No. 10 Q Mr. Dandar had nothing to do with telling 11 Mr. Minton that Mr. Howie was a good attorney and that he 12 was available to serve as counsel? 13 A No. 14 Q Well, how did Mr. Minton find Mr. Howie? 15 A Mr. Minton had a criminal trial maybe in 2000. 16 And he retained Denis DeVlaming as his criminal counsel. 17 And Mr. Howie was an attorney who worked with Mr. DeVlaming 18 on a regular basis. And Mr. DeVlaming brought Mr. Howie in 19 on that case. 20 And then Mr. Howie -- well, Mr. Minton at first 21 had Mr. DeVlaming representing him in another case that was 22 before Judge Penick regarding an injunction. And then 23 Mr. DeVlaming felt that it was going on -- going into areas 24 that really weren't his area of expertise. And so Mr. Howie 25 ended up becoming Mr. Minton's counsel in that case.
269 1 Q All right. Do you know Dr. Garko? Do you know 2 who he is? 3 A Yes. 4 Q All right. I don't know if the Court knows, but 5 can you tell the Court who Dr. Garko is? 6 A Dr. Garko is Mr. Dandar's trial consultant. 7 Q Okay. Were you aware that Mr. Dandar and Mr. -- 8 and Dr. Garko were trying to get Attorney DeVlaming to 9 represent Mr. Minton at that time? 10 A Are you saying -- 11 Q Prior to -- prior to Mr. Minton retaining 12 Mr. Howie? 13 A That Mr. Dandar helped Mr. Minton find 14 Mr. DeVlaming? 15 Q No, that he was trying to get Mr. DeVlaming to 16 represent him at that point in time? 17 A You mean for his criminal trial? 18 Q For any proceedings in early January of -- excuse 19 me, January of 2002? 20 A 2002? 21 Q January -- let me just back up a little, ma'am. 22 You had testified that Mr. Howie had gone, met 23 with Mr. Minton, and at that point there was consideration 24 for working out a settlement with the Church of Scientology. 25 My question was --
270 1 A That is not what I testified to. 2 Q I'm sorry? 3 A That is not what I testified to. 4 Q My question was, how did Mr. Minton end up with 5 Mr. Howie? And I'm just asking if you remember that -- 6 A I'm telling you. 7 Q I understand, but do you recall Mr. Dandar trying 8 to get Denis DeVlaming to assist as Mr. -- Mr. Minton in the 9 breach case prior to retaining Mr. Howie? 10 A I don't know if it was in the breach case, but I 11 know Mr. Dandar, when he was in New Hampshire, at the end of 12 February, said -- offered to go and see Mr. DeVlaming and 13 see if he would come in as -- as another counsel for 14 Mr. Minton. 15 Q So Mr. Minton already had Mr. Howie as counsel at 16 that point in time? 17 A Yes. 18 Q Did Mr. Howie come up to New Hampshire to discuss 19 the possibility -- 20 A No. 21 Q -- of settlement? 22 A No. 23 Q Did you come down here or communicate with him 24 over the phone? 25 A It was over the phone, as I recall. I don't
271 1 believe we had a meeting with him in person. 2 Q All right. So as I understand it, Mr. Minton 3 retained Mr. Howie to try to settle the breach case as we're 4 referring to it -- 5 A Well, he already had Mr. Howie as his attorney. 6 Q Okay. But in early January of 2002, Mr. Minton 7 decided that he would talk to Mr. Howie and they were going 8 to try to work out a settlement of the breach case. Is that 9 correct? 10 A Yes. That is correct. 11 Q All right. And after that, apparently you 12 interjected some concern that it would be useless to settle 13 that case because Scientology wouldn't give you the benefit 14 of any -- any resolution of that case unless there were 15 other cases resolved. Is that correct? 16 A That is not correct. 17 Q All right. Correct me. 18 A All right. 19 Q Tell me what really happened. 20 A What really happened is what I just said. Which 21 was that Mr. Howie and I had conversations in which 22 Mr. Howie suggested that because the costs involved in the 23 breach case were so low, that it would probably be a fairly 24 simple matter for him to broach the Scientology attorneys 25 with an offer of settlement on Mr. Minton's behalf.
272 1 And I said, "Well, they probably won't be willing 2 to do that, but I -- I want to talk to Mr. Minton and see if 3 he will authorize you to make that approach." 4 So then I talked with Mr. Minton and told him what 5 Mr. Howie had said and asked him if he would authorize 6 Mr. Howie to make that approach for settlement in the breach 7 case. And -- 8 Q Again, I'm sorry, maybe I'm not listening close 9 enough. What was the deal? What did you want to do in the 10 breach case to get Mr. Minton out of that case? 11 A Mmm, well, Mr. Howie said to me that -- like I 12 said, that the costs involved in the breach case were fairly 13 low, so that he -- 14 Q What kind of costs? I don't understand. Attorney 15 fees paid by -- 16 THE COURT: Counsel, you'll have to let her 17 finish when you ask a question, write it down, 18 because she does tend to go on and on. 19 MR. LIROT: I'm sorry, I will watch myself. 20 THE COURT: You have to let her finish. Okay? 21 You can continue. 22 THE WITNESS: Okay. I'll try not to go on and 23 on, your Honor. 24 THE COURT: I didn't mean that disparagingly. 25 But sometimes we learn more than we need to learn.
273 1 THE WITNESS: Yes, okay. 2 A Oh, okay. So, well, you know, I'm not exactly 3 sure, but I guess it was attorney fees or whatever kind of 4 costs it is that you do when you settle a simple case. I'm 5 not really sure what that is. 6 But -- but -- but Mr. Howie said to me that the 7 costs were going to be fairly low in the breach case 8 because -- you know, I don't remember exactly -- but he did, 9 maybe -- he said something about Florida law, in Florida 10 costs are low. I don't know. Something like that. 11 In any case, he thought it would be a fairly 12 simple matter to settle that case. 13 BY MR. LIROT: 14 Q With the Church? On behalf of Mr. Minton? 15 A Right. 16 Q Were you named as a party in the breach case? 17 A Yes. 18 Q All right. Individually? Or as the operator of 19 the Lisa McPherson -- 20 A No. 21 Q Okay. What was alleged against you in that case? 22 What was the Church's complaint about what you did to bring 23 you into that case? 24 A I can't remember exactly. 25 THE COURT: You were named as an individual, as
274 1 well as LMT? Or just LMT? 2 THE WITNESS: Just the LMT. 3 THE COURT: You were the representative? 4 THE WITNESS: I am LMT, so -- 5 BY MR. LIROT: 6 Q All right, do you remember what Mr. Minton's role 7 was? What the Church complained Mr. Minton did to bring him 8 in as a defendant in the breach case? 9 THE COURT: Are we talking about the case up in 10 Clearwater? 11 MR. LIROT: I'm -- Judge, I'm getting to the 12 global settlement here. 13 THE COURT: I know, but is that what we are 14 talking about? 15 MR. LIROT: Right, we call it the breach case. 16 THE COURT: That is the one where they said 17 they breached a contract that prohibited 18 Mr. Dandar -- or Mr. Liebreich, actually, from 19 bringing in David Miscavige. And they did so and, 20 therefore, they breached their agreement when they 21 did so, is that it? 22 MR. LIROT: I understand that aspect. I have 23 no idea how LMT or somebody else that is not part of 24 the agreement gets brought in as defendant. 25 THE COURT: I see what you are saying. If she
275 1 knows then. 2 MR. LIROT: If she knows. 3 THE COURT: All right. 4 BY MR. LIROT: 5 Q If you know, what was their complaint against 6 Mr. Minton? Did you know one way or another if Mr. Minton 7 was part of this contract or agreement that was being 8 allegedly breached? 9 A Well, you know, I haven't -- I haven't seen the 10 breach complaint in a while. But I can tell you that 11 generally speaking, Scientology was bringing Mr. Minton and 12 LMT into everything. And basically saying that -- you know, 13 generally saying, without using legal terms, that Mr. Minton 14 and LMT in the case were all the same thing. So I would 15 imagine -- although I don't remember too well what the 16 breach case said, I would imagine it followed that same 17 general theory. 18 Q Clarify. You said generally -- 19 THE COURT: Well, wait a minute. I don't know 20 myself. Mr. Minton wasn't originally a party there, 21 was he? 22 MR. DANDAR: No. 23 THE COURT: So wasn't he kind of brought in 24 when all of this -- the thought being that -- that 25 Mr. Minton was having influence over Mr. Dandar by
276 1 paying him money, and he was having influence over 2 this decision, the very thing that we're arguing 3 about here and, therefore, the motion was made to 4 add him as a party at that time? 5 MR. LIROT: That is my question. 6 MR. DANDAR: That -- 7 THE COURT: Isn't that it? 8 MR. DANDAR: That is it. 9 MR. LIROT: Okay. Well, I guess, Judge, this 10 opens another question. 11 BY MR. LIROT: 12 Q You said generally. Were you and Mr. Minton named 13 in other lawsuits where the Church of Scientology was a 14 party? 15 A Well, I'm not sure if it happened yet or not. But 16 I think we were going to be named in the counterclaim. 17 Q Why would you want to settle a suit if you are not 18 named yet? 19 A We weren't settling that one. We were settling 20 the breach. 21 Q Were you already named as a party in the breach? 22 A I think so. Well, Mr. Minton was for sure. 23 Q So he's in it for sure. And Mr. Howie apparently 24 says we can probably get out of this one for some relatively 25 menial -- you know, it is reachable, the costs would be a
277 1 reachable event? 2 A Yes, in other words, it wouldn't be too much of a 3 burden on Mr. Minton to settle it. 4 THE COURT: When you say costs, ma'am, are you 5 talking about -- when you settle a case, you 6 normally settle for damages. In other words, you 7 settle because you are going to get a judgment -- 8 THE WITNESS: In Florida, is there a limit on 9 that? Are they low in Florida or something? 10 THE COURT: No, it is just normally I wouldn't 11 expect a lawyer to be talking about settling a case 12 for costs. He would probably say we can settle 13 this, but I don't imagine the damages would be too 14 big. 15 THE WITNESS: That would probably be the same. 16 BY MR. LIROT: 17 Q But, either way, you make it sound like it was a 18 relatively appealing manner of settlement. Is that true? 19 A Well, Mr. Howie thought it would be -- you know, 20 Mr. Howie thought that he could arrange a settlement with 21 them that would be appealing enough to Mr. Minton that he 22 would do it. 23 Q Okay. And what did you do next in that regard? 24 A I asked Mr. Minton if he would authorize Mr. Howie 25 to make that approach.
278 1 Q And -- 2 A And -- 3 Q I'm sorry. 4 A And -- 5 Q Go ahead and finish. 6 A I was jumping ahead. Sorry. 7 Q So basically you asked Mr. Minton, said, "Hey, can 8 I talk to Bruce Howie and we can try to work this out?" 9 A Yes. 10 Q What was your discussion with Mr. Minton? 11 A That Mr. Howie thought that he could come to a 12 reasonable settlement on the breach case. That I told him 13 that I was concerned that Scientology wouldn't agree to just 14 settling one case, but that I thought it was certainly 15 something that Mr. Howie should try to do. 16 Q So originally -- 17 A Something like that. 18 Q I'm sorry. Originally, you thought it was a good 19 idea Mr. Howie would just settle the breach case? 20 A I thought it would be great if they would. I just 21 didn't think that they would. 22 Q All right. Now, why is it that you are acting as 23 the go-between with Mr. Minton and Mr. Howie? 24 A Well, as I said earlier, Mr. Minton was in very 25 bad shape. He wasn't wanting to talk to anybody. He was
279 1 hardly leaving his house at all. And I was very concerned 2 about him, and he was speaking to Mr. Howie about my 3 concerns. 4 Q So Mr. Minton is not leaving the house at all, for 5 what reason? Why is he so distraught? 6 A Because Judge Baird had already been about to put 7 him in jail in October. Judge Schaeffer was -- he was 8 afraid Judge Schaeffer and Judge Baird were going to 9 continue to come after him on contempt charges. He was 10 perjuring himself in depositions, and he was afraid that the 11 courts were going to -- well, he was just extremely afraid 12 that he was going to be destroyed over the whole situation. 13 Q So basically, as I understand your testimony, that 14 there was -- there were some depositions taken of 15 Mr. Minton, and he testified about this alleged agreement, 16 the agreement to, I guess, fund the Lisa McPherson Trust, 17 that was one concern. Is that correct? 18 A Yes. 19 Q All right. And the other concern was about some 20 checks that I guess were not from Mr. Minton's account. 21 That was another concern? 22 A Well, he had testified that he had given 23 Mr. Dandar a certain amount of money, which was a lie, 24 because he had given Mr. Dandar a lot more money than he was 25 testifying to.
280 1 Q Okay. We'll get a chance to explore that. I'm 2 just trying to isolate your concerns, or at least what you 3 felt Mr. Minton's concerns were since you were acting as his 4 communicator, I guess. 5 A Well, I wouldn't characterize myself as his 6 communicator. 7 Q You were communicating messages between Mr. Minton 8 and Mr. Howie. Is that correct? 9 A Not really. I was just having a conversation with 10 Mr. Howie on my own, really. I wasn't acting as a 11 go-between because Mr. Minton was in such apathy about the 12 whole situation that he wasn't thinking that his attorneys 13 could even help him. 14 Q Well, I'm confused here. If he's apathetic and 15 he's not on the phone and you are making the phone calls, 16 that doesn't make you the communicator? I mean, does 17 Mr. Minton make any of these phone calls? 18 A He did after Mr. Howie and I spoke. 19 Q Okay. So basically you gave him a ray of hope, 20 said hey, maybe there is a way we can get you out of all 21 this. What I'm trying to ask, you are concerned about his 22 testimony about the agreement, or lack thereof, or whatever 23 he testified to -- 24 A No. That is not what I said. 25 Q All right. I'm just -- I'm asking the question
281 1 here. What were your primary concerns? You mentioned 2 perjury -- 3 A You want me to tell you? 4 Q -- false statements? And you described this 5 overall fear. I want to know specifically what it was -- 6 A I'll tell you. 7 Q -- that Mr. Minton was afraid of? 8 A I'll tell you. 9 Q Please. 10 A Well, actually, you have asked me several 11 questions. Let me answer it one at a time. 12 Q Please. 13 A The first question you asked was what was I 14 concerned about. What I was concerned about was 15 Mr. Minton's state of mind. That is what I was concerned 16 about. I was speaking to Mr. Howie, hoping that Mr. Howie 17 could do something that would cause Mr. Minton to feel 18 better than he was feeling. Because he was feeling really, 19 really bad. Mr. Minton's concerns, he wasn't particularly 20 voicing them at the time. I knew, generally speaking, that 21 he was very concerned about his perjury. But Mr. Minton was 22 not being very communicative, even to me. 23 All I knew was that the only possibility I could 24 see on the horizon for any help for Mr. Minton at all was 25 his attorney, Mr. Howie, and Mr. Jonas. So I was talking to
282 1 them, seeing if they could come up with any ideas for how to 2 help Mr. Minton in this situation he was in. 3 Q Well, so that sounds like it was a lot more than 4 concern about perjury. 5 A What? Why are you saying that? 6 Q I didn't say it. I think what you said was he's 7 concerned about perjury, but what I was concerned with was 8 his overall malaise, his discontent, he seemed to be 9 overwhelmed with angst. 10 A All I'm saying, Mr. Lirot, is that my concern was 11 Mr. Minton's state of mind. What Mr. Minton's particular 12 concerns were, he wasn't going into detail with me about. I 13 knew, generally speaking, that he was very concerned about 14 the situation that Mr. Dandar had -- or that he felt that 15 Mr. Dandar had put him in. That is what I knew. And that 16 is what I was talking to Mr. Howie about. 17 Q Okay. What exactly did you know about what 18 Mr. Minton was concerned with? You said about the perjury. 19 You said, "That's what I knew." And I'm trying to find out 20 if it is about the agreement and about a check. That is the 21 perjury. The alleged perjury? 22 A Well, what I knew then and what I know now, I'll 23 try and separate the two. 24 Well, I knew -- I for sure knew about the lying 25 about the agreement because I had also done that. You know,
283 1 saying that there was no agreement when there was. 2 Q Okay. 3 A So that I knew about for sure at that time. 4 Q So -- 5 A I also -- 6 Q You know for sure you lied about it in your 7 deposition? 8 A That is correct. 9 Q You lied about the agreement? 10 A Yes. I said that there was none when I knew there 11 was. 12 MR. FUGATE: Your Honor, I just object to 13 counsel cutting off her answers. 14 THE COURT: Sustained. 15 I forget, too, you know, you get in hearings 16 and you break for the weekend and you read 17 depositions and you don't remember whether this has 18 been covered or not. I'm sure it maybe has, but I'm 19 going to ask because I can't remember. 20 What exactly is this agreement? Are we 21 referring to the agreement regarding some proceeds 22 from the lawsuit? 23 THE WITNESS: The bulk of the proceeds. 24 THE COURT: This is this unwritten bulk, 25 substantial, understanding, is that it?
284 1 THE WITNESS: Yes. Your Honor, it was the one 2 where the bulk of the proceeds of any judgment would 3 go to the LMT. 4 THE COURT: Right. And that bulk was never 5 defined? 6 THE WITNESS: Well, it would be defined, you 7 know, as far as a percentage, no. 8 THE COURT: And I read this weekend, I thought, 9 the only word ever used was bulk, but that wasn't. 10 I heard it defined now as substantial. 11 THE WITNESS: Yes. 12 THE COURT: I have heard it defined as two or 13 three other terms, I think bulk most of the time. 14 The long and short of it, you are talking about some 15 understanding but not a written understanding and 16 not something that is put in legal terms. 17 THE WITNESS: Correct. 18 THE COURT: All right. 19 BY MR. LIROT: 20 Q Why would you lie about an agreement if there was 21 or wasn't one? 22 A Mr. Dandar had made it very clear that it was bad 23 for the case to talk about this agreement, that this 24 agreement needed to stop existing because Scientology was 25 using this agreement as something to try to, you know, put
285 1 some nefarious motive on all of us, so we needed to counter 2 this attempt to Scientology's part to make some -- to create 3 the impression of the nefarious motive by making that 4 agreement go away. 5 Q Okay. What nefarious motive? What is wrong with 6 having an agreement? 7 A Well, there wasn't anything wrong. But at the 8 time, especially after Judge Moody left the case and Quesada 9 came on the case, Judge Quesada -- Mr. Dandar started to 10 lose quite a number of motions. And he felt that -- I mean, 11 he felt that Judge Quesada was being blackmailed by 12 Scientology. He felt that the court system had been 13 corrupted by Scientology. He felt that there was a lot 14 of -- you know, Wally Pope he felt was being blackmailed. I 15 mean, the scenario that we were facing was kind of this 16 corrupt court system and this, you know, evil empire 17 corrupting this court system. And we had to counter all of 18 this manipulation of the court by the evil empire by doing 19 everything we possibly could -- it might be easier if he 20 just stood next to you, rather than jumping up and down. 21 THE COURT: That is disconcerting. 22 MR. LIROT: Do you want me to inquire from 23 counsel table? 24 THE COURT: That would be a lot easier. I 25 don't like it and --
286 1 MR. LIROT: I understand that, Judge. 2 THE COURT: The only reason I'm not fussing 3 here, because I know you came on this case late. 4 MR. LIROT: Thank you, Judge. 5 THE COURT: If they were doing it, it would be 6 fussing at them. 7 MR. LIROT: I appreciate your indulgence. 8 MR. FUGATE: For the record, so it is clear, 9 Mr. Dandar was walking back and forth from the 10 podium. 11 THE COURT: Yes, and that is all right. 12 MR. FUGATE: Just for the record. 13 THE COURT: He's counsel and he's -- they are 14 co-counsel here, and I think he's probably letting 15 Mr. Lirot handle this, but obviously Mr. Lirot is 16 not up to the same speed that Mr. Dandar is, so I 17 have no problem. I just don't like people getting 18 up and down, up and down. 19 MR. LIROT: Thank you, Judge. 20 Mr. Dandar said he thought Judge Quesada was 21 being blackmailed by Scientology? 22 THE WITNESS: Yes. 23 THE COURT: Was he talking -- saying that about 24 me? 25 THE WITNESS: Well, Mmm, yes, your Honor.
287 1 THE COURT: Okay. 2 BY MR. LIROT: 3 Q Did you know that to be true? 4 A What? 5 Q Was anybody being blackmailed? Did you know? 6 A Mmm, we certainly thought so. 7 Q Why? 8 A Why? Because why else would a judge be making 9 rulings against Mr. Dandar? I mean, what judge in their 10 right mind would be making rulings in favor of Scientology. 11 That is how we felt. So if a judge was making rulings in 12 favor of Scientology, it must be blackmail. That was -- 13 Q Well -- 14 A -- the -- the thinking. 15 Q I guess you have been around the block with 16 Scientology. Is that something that you had seen them do or 17 were aware of them doing in the past? 18 MR. FUGATE: Your Honor, I object to that as 19 outside of the scope of -- 20 THE COURT: Overruled. 21 A To blackmail someone? 22 BY MR. LIROT: 23 Q Yes. 24 A No. But I certainly thought it was something 25 that --
288 1 Q I just -- I don't want to interrupt you, but that 2 is just a yes or no for that one. 3 A Okay. 4 Q So Scientology had done that in the past, yes or 5 no? 6 A Not that I know of. 7 Q You don't have any knowledge of Scientology 8 blackmailing anybody in the past? 9 A Mmm, is there some knowledge I have that you know 10 of? Because if there is, tell me. 11 THE COURT: Well, no, that is what he wants you 12 to answer. If he does, he'll undoubtedly slip it on 13 you and say gotcha. So he's asking you and you need 14 to tell the truth. If you know it, you have to say 15 it. If you don't, you don't. 16 A As I'm sitting here right now, I don't know of any 17 time that Scientology blackmailed somebody. 18 BY MR. LIROT: 19 Q How in the heck does this idea come up? You are 20 the one with the familiarity with Scientology. And, you 21 know, as far as this belief, I had some judges rule against 22 me and I don't automatically think my opponents are 23 blackmailing the judge. So how does this come up? 24 A Well, as I testified on Friday, there is a certain 25 degree of deamonizing that was going on. It is sort of
289 1 similar to the way Israel and Palestine are deamonizing each 2 other. The anti-Scientology side was deamonizing 3 Scientology in every possible way, as similar to the way the 4 Scientology side was deamonizing the anti-Scientology side, 5 as well. 6 I'm not saying this was one-sided, but it was -- I 7 mean, there is a large community of people today, as we 8 speak, who -- who see the situation in very black-and-white 9 terms. You know, Scientology is all bad. Mr. Dandar is all 10 good. Mmm, if something happens bad to Mr. Dandar, it is 11 because Scientology has done something bad. I mean, that is 12 just -- it was the thinking -- my thinking, it was the 13 climate in which we were operating. 14 Q So you just thought that this overwhelming cloud 15 of discontent with Scientology justified you to lie about 16 something regarding this amorphous agreement? 17 A No, it wasn't a cloud of discontent. It wasn't a 18 cloud of discontent. It was feeling -- it was a feeling 19 that Scientology was doing things that were illegal, and 20 they were corrupting the court system, and they were putting 21 Mr. Dandar and the case in jeopardy by coming after us. And 22 we had to do whatever we could to protect the case, help the 23 case. And as I said on Friday, there was an overall feeling 24 that the end justified the means. 25 Q Well, how does coming after you jeopardize a
290 1 wrongful death case that you are not a party to? 2 A Have you read -- have you read the pleadings and 3 the depositions of Mr. Minton and me? Mr. Lirot, if you 4 have read these things, you can't possibly be asking me that 5 question. Every question that they were asking of either 6 Mr. Minton or myself was about this wrongful death case. 7 Q Okay. 8 A There was no question about that. 9 Q Well -- 10 A That -- that the attempt was to harm the wrongful 11 death case through Mr. Minton and myself. There was no 12 question about that. And if you read the -- the previous 13 things that have happened in this case, I think that would 14 be clear. 15 And so Mr. Dandar was very, very concerned -- 16 Q Go ahead. 17 A Let me finish. 18 Q Yes? 19 A Mr. Dandar was very, very concerned to make sure 20 neither Mr. Minton nor I said anything that was going to 21 hurt the case. 22 THE COURT: What difference? I'm just kind of 23 curious. If the judges were being blackmailed, 24 there really wasn't much you could do about it, was 25 there? I mean, that doesn't make a great deal of
291 1 sense to me. Because if you back off an agreement 2 or you go forward with an agreement, if the other 3 side is paying off a judge or blackmailing a judge, 4 it doesn't really matter what you do. 5 THE WITNESS: But the way it was working -- in 6 other words, because Judge Quesada -- see, what 7 happened, Judge Moody had been limiting discovery 8 very, very narrowly from Mr. Dandar's side. Then 9 when Judge Quesada took over, he -- he started 10 ruling -- I mean, he just sort of threw out Judge 11 Moody's rulings and allowed for much, much broader 12 discovery of Mr. Minton and me. 13 So the problem that Mr. Dandar was trying to 14 solve was that Mr. Minton and I were being asked a 15 lot of questions in deposition that Judge Moody 16 hadn't allowed us to be asked. But now Judge 17 Quesada was allowing us to be asked. 18 And the feeling was that these questions 19 shouldn't be being allowed to be asked in the first 20 place. So that, you know, our -- you know, we 21 shouldn't be having to answer these questions. 22 And -- 23 THE COURT: So just go on ahead and come in and 24 commit -- I hate to tell you this, ma'am, but all of 25 a sudden, ma'am, it is making no sense.
292 1 But you continue on, Counselor. 2 BY MR. LIROT: 3 Q I guess that is my question. Why, if Judge 4 Quesada is making these harsh discovery rulings, would it 5 ever occur to you to lie about an agreement as a way to get 6 out of that? Where do those parallel lines intersect? 7 Please explain that to me. 8 A Well, because -- Mmm, basically what was happening 9 was that the case was taking a very bad turn with Judge 10 Quesada. And the discovery that Judge Quesada was allowing 11 was turning all of the attention onto Mr. Minton and the 12 LMT. And Mr. Dandar was trying to keep the attention from 13 going on to Mr. Minton and me -- or Mr. Minton and the LMT. 14 And -- 15 Q Okay. 16 A -- he was trying to minimize the involvement of 17 Mr. Minton and the LMT in the court's eyes. 18 Q Why? 19 A Because he didn't want -- he didn't want these 20 things to be coming out that were showing -- that would show 21 Mr. Minton's involvement in the case and the LMT's 22 involvement in the case. 23 MR. FUGATE: I object to the speculation, your 24 Honor. She's speculating. 25 THE COURT: I'm going to allow it.
293 1 BY MR. LIROT: 2 Q Well -- 3 THE COURT: For a little while. 4 BY MR. LIROT: 5 Q I have read the depositions. Don't most of the 6 questions talk about the LMT and the money in the LMT and 7 the records of the LMT that just don't have anything to do 8 with the wrongful death case? 9 A Are you talking about my deposition or 10 Mr. Minton's? 11 Q Let's ask you what you know about yours. Wasn't 12 it all LMT? 13 A There were a lot of questions about the LMT. In 14 fact, all of it was about the LMT, including was the LMT 15 going to be getting the bulk of the proceeds of the case. 16 Q Why does that affect the wrongful death case? 17 A Whether the LMT would get the bulk of the 18 proceeds? 19 Q Yes. 20 A Well, as I said, Scientology was claiming that 21 because the LMT was going to get the bulk of the proceeds, 22 this was why -- you know, basically why Mr. Minton was 23 controlling the case, this was why he was so involved in the 24 case and things like that. And Mr. Dandar was trying to 25 downplay those aspects of the case.
294 1 Q Because it wasn't true. Right? 2 A Mmm -- 3 Q It wasn't true, was it? 4 A Excuse me, but yes, it was. Yes, it was. 5 Q That -- your position is that the agreement was 6 true that Mr. Minton was going to get some bulk of the 7 proceeds to fund the Lisa McPherson Trust? 8 A The LMT was going to get the bulk proceeds. 9 Q So what? Why is that a bad thing? 10 A Well, in fact, in -- in -- you know, in the 11 general scheme of things, it's not a bad thing. There is 12 nothing wrong with it. But it was being painted in a very 13 bad light, and Mr. Dandar was very concerned about having 14 that come out, because he was afraid of how Scientology was 15 going to be able to use it to discredit the case. 16 Q But -- 17 A Because they were trying -- 18 Q Weren't they already trying it? 19 I didn't mean to interrupt you. 20 A Go ahead. 21 Q Weren't they already trying to discredit this case 22 by making suggestions that you knew to be false? 23 Let me ask you this? Did Mr. Minton have a 24 nefarious motive in funding or loaning or giving or 25 transferring or in any way giving Mr. Dandar a penny in any
295 1 capacity for the wrongful death case? Is there something 2 wrong with that? 3 A Mmm -- 4 THE COURT: There are two different questions 5 there, Counselor. The first one is did Mr. Minton 6 have a nefarious motive. And I presume that 7 question needs to be answered first. Then the next 8 question, I guess, is there anything wrong with 9 that. I suppose it depends on maybe what the answer 10 is. Maybe -- you know, maybe you don't know. Did 11 Mr. Minton have some bad motive in funding the Lisa 12 McPherson case? Or giving money to Mr. Dandar so he 13 could pursue the case? 14 THE WITNESS: No, your Honor. He felt like he 15 was, you know, fighting the good fight and, you 16 know, crusading against something that was really 17 bad. 18 THE COURT: And that was Scientology, as far as 19 he was concerned, the Church of Scientology? 20 THE WITNESS: Yes, your Honor. 21 THE COURT: So he gave money to Mr. Dandar, I 22 suppose, as I read many of his depositions, as much 23 as he had given money to other folks involved in 24 some litigation against Scientology, needed money to 25 carry on?
296 1 THE WITNESS: Yes, your Honor. 2 THE COURT: Okay. So I guess that brings you 3 to the second part of the question. 4 Was there anything bad about that? In other 5 words, he had no -- he had no nefarious intention so 6 there couldn't have been anything bad about it, 7 Counselor, so we don't even need to get to the 8 second one. 9 MR. LIROT: Okay. 10 BY MR. LIROT: 11 Q So why would you lie about the agreement -- 12 THE COURT: Counselor, asked and answered. You 13 may not like the answer but she answered it three 14 times. 15 MR. LIROT: All right. 16 THE COURT: I know what her answer is, and it 17 will be the same if you ask it six times so really I 18 don't need it again. 19 MR. LIROT: I'll move on, Judge. 20 BY MR. LIROT: 21 Q So you talked about the agreement. 22 What else was it that concerned you? Checks? 23 Money? Was that the additional concern of perjury? 24 A What concerned me? 25 Q Yes.
297 1 A Because what I already said was what concerned me 2 was Mr. Minton's state of mind. 3 Q Okay. But you said his state of mind, as I 4 understand it, was based on concerns about the impact of 5 committing perjury in these cases. Is that correct? 6 A Correct. 7 Q All right. And we've identified what I understand 8 your testimony to be, two issues about that perjury, one 9 about this agreement, whether there was or wasn't an 10 agreement, and the other is about some checks. Is that 11 correct? 12 A Mmm, I believe -- I believe so. 13 Q Okay. 14 A There may have been other things but -- 15 Q What would those be, what other things? 16 THE COURT: What he wants to know is everything 17 that you knew that was bothering Mr. Minton when you 18 made this call to Mr. Howie. 19 THE WITNESS: Right, I know. 20 THE COURT: I think we're talking about the 21 perjury that you mentioned, and you told him one was 22 the agreement, one was the checks. 23 And is there anything else that you know that 24 he committed perjury about, in general terms? 25 THE WITNESS: I think at that time those were
298 1 the two things I knew about. 2 BY MR. LIROT: 3 Q All right. After that, do you know of anything 4 else? 5 A Well, now, as I sit here, I know of other things. 6 But I think at that time, that was what he had talked to me 7 about. 8 Q What other things would those be? 9 A That I know about now? 10 Q Sure. 11 A Mmm, I believe he testified -- Mmm -- I would have 12 to review his affidavit. But at that time in January those 13 were the two main things. I don't really remember, as I'm 14 sitting here, what else. But I think there are other things 15 covered in his affidavit. 16 Q Would you agree the two big things are this 17 agreement and the check? 18 A Well, the two things that I knew about in January 19 were those two things. 20 Q Okay. Now, the Judge was right, I had talked 21 about the agreement. Let's talk about the check. What 22 check was it he seemed to be concerned about? 23 A Mmm, I don't recall that he was very specific 24 about this with me. He just was very, very upset with 25 Mr. Dandar because he had perjured himself about how much
299 1 money he had given to the case. 2 Q Do you know on what basis he felt he had perjured 3 himself? 4 A I don't believe he went into much detail with me 5 about that. But by that time, January of 2002, he was -- 6 Mmm -- very upset with Mr. Dandar. 7 Q Okay. Did you have knowledge that the Church 8 already knew about a significant sum of money that 9 Mr. Minton had tendered in some fashion to Mr. Dandar? 10 The Church already knew Mr. Dandar received some 11 money from Mr. Minton. Is that true? 12 A I'm sure that's true. 13 Q Okay. Over a million bucks, does that sound like 14 a fair round number? 15 A I believe they did. I believe they did. 16 Q So the Church already knows that Mr. Minton -- and 17 I'll just say gave, for practical purposes, without that 18 reflecting any legal analysis of the money -- Mr. Minton 19 gave Mr. Dandar over a million dollars and the Church 20 already knew all about that. Right? 21 A I think Mr. Minton loaned over a million dollars 22 to the estate would be more accurate. 23 Q Okay. All right. But it's no secret that there 24 is money flying around. Is that correct? 25 A That there is money flying around?
300 1 Q That it is no secret -- please, I don't want to be 2 flip. 3 A That was a little flip. 4 Q At that point the Church of Scientology was well 5 aware that Robert Minton, in some form or another, had put 6 over a million dollars into the wrongful death suit 7 involving Lisa McPherson? 8 A Yes. 9 Q So they already knew that? 10 A Yes. 11 Q So what difference would more money make? What 12 possible difference, in your mind, would getting more money 13 make if they already know about a million dollars? 14 A I don't know. 15 Q I don't, either. Why lie about it? 16 MR. FUGATE: Excuse me, your Honor, I object to 17 the gratuitous comment. 18 THE COURT: Sustained. 19 MR. LIROT: I won't argue. I'm sorry. 20 THE COURT: We don't need any editorializing. 21 Save that for me. 22 MR. LIROT: I apologize, your Honor. 23 THE COURT: I think what he's trying to say -- 24 THE WITNESS: Yes, I wasn't clear. 25 THE COURT: I think this is what he's trying to
301 1 say: If the Church already knew that Mr. Minton had 2 given over a million dollars, any way you want to 3 look at it, to assist in funding this case, why 4 would they want to lie about more? In other words, 5 a million dollars is a lot of money. And we now 6 know we are talking about two more checks, one for 7 $500,000, one for $750,000. Those are the two main 8 checks. 9 THE WITNESS: Well, there was one for 500 and 10 one for 250, and the one for 250 had not been 11 written yet -- 12 THE COURT: One for 500. So I guess the 13 question was, if the Church already knew that 14 Mr. Minton had given, to assist somebody, over a 15 million dollars, why would it matter if he had given 16 him, at that point, a million-five? 17 THE WITNESS: Well, your Honor, I think that is 18 a question that Mr. Minton would better be able to 19 answer than I. 20 But -- but as I understand it, Mr. Dandar had 21 not reported the $500,000 check to the Court and had 22 asked Mr. Minton not to report the $500,000 check to 23 the Court. Why he asked him not to report it, I 24 don't know. 25 THE COURT: So -- so, if I understand you
302 1 correctly, Mr. Minton was doing a favor for 2 Mr. Dandar. He didn't know anything -- he wasn't 3 thinking how that would affect the case; he was 4 thinking Mr. Dandar said, "I haven't reported it so 5 I don't want you to report it." He was trying to do 6 his friend, Mr. Dandar, a favor. 7 THE WITNESS: And, Mr. Dandar, you know, why it 8 would make a difference, $500,000, more or less, I 9 can't answer that question. But -- I mean, all I'm 10 telling you now is what I have been told by 11 Mr. Minton. 12 THE COURT: Right. 13 THE WITNESS: You know. But what I understood 14 from him was that this was also part of this attempt 15 to try to minimize Mr. Minton's involvement in the 16 case. Why $500,000 would do that one way or 17 another, I don't know. But, you know, Mr. Dandar 18 wanted him not to report that money. Mr. Dandar 19 told Mr. Minton that he wasn't reporting it because 20 he was trying to minimize Mr. Minton's involvement 21 in the case, as far as I understood. I may be wrong 22 about that. But -- 23 BY MR. LIROT: 24 Q Well, I want to explore what you did know. I 25 guess you responded to the judge it was two checks, one for
303 1 500 and one for 250? 2 A What I was explaining to the judge is that at the 3 time when you are talking about, the $250,000 check had not 4 been written yet. 5 Q So we're talking about one check for $500,000? 6 A Yes. 7 Q After it's already common knowledge that 8 Mr. Dandar has gotten over a million from Mr. Minton? 9 A I think you said that before. 10 Q But you agree with me on that? 11 A I think I already did. 12 Q Okay. Was there any order for Mr. Dandar to 13 provide evidence or -- or do you know of any reason 14 Mr. Dandar would have had to say anything about the $500,000 15 check? 16 A Apparently so. Apparently -- but again, I'm 17 probably not the best person to ask this. But from what I 18 understood, he made some sort of a proffer to the Court and 19 had not included that check. 20 Q Were you following the case closely at that point 21 in time? 22 A No. 23 Q All right. What were you occupying yourself with 24 at that point in time? 25 A At which point?
304 1 Q During the time this check changed hands? I guess 2 this is May of 2000? 3 A I was working at the LMT. 4 Q So did -- when did Mr. Minton tell you that he had 5 lied about this one check? 6 A After the LMT was closed down, I believe -- or, 7 no -- Mmm, perhaps -- I'm not sure when a deposition came up 8 about that. It may have been at the end of the summer of 9 2000 or end of 2000. I'm not really sure when it first came 10 up for him. 11 Q I'm sorry, so my time frame is we have a $500,000 12 check that is not drawn on Mr. Minton's account. Are you 13 aware of that? It doesn't have Mr. Minton's name on it, it 14 is just a $500,000 check? 15 A I am now. 16 Q You are now? And it was May of 2000 or 17 thereabouts, right? 18 A As I understand it, yes. 19 THE COURT: Can we establish something? Do we 20 know now if -- matter of fact, I would like to know 21 if this check is from Mr. Minton or wasn't. Do we 22 know that as a matter of fact yet? 23 MR. LIROT: We don't know that, Judge. 24 THE COURT: Okay. 25 MR. WEINBERG: Mr. Minton says it is. He
305 1 testified it was his money. 2 THE WITNESS: Well, Mr. Dandar knew it was. 3 THE COURT: But, I mean, we don't have an 4 agreement from both sides that there is some number 5 that equates back to some bank and that bank says 6 that is an account registered to Robert Minton? 7 THE WITNESS: I think -- 8 THE COURT: Wait a second, I'm asking the 9 lawyers now. 10 MR. FUGATE: Judge -- 11 MR. LIROT: Judge, I would just respond from 12 our perspective, we've heard testimony, but we don't 13 have anything other than the testimony of Mr. Minton 14 regarding that, and we're still not even sure 15 exactly what he said about that check. As we 16 recall, in looking at the -- and I'm sure they'll 17 correct me if I'm wrong, but I think the testimony 18 was, "I caused it to be issued," was his testimony. 19 Now, whether that means it was his or he put the 20 money somewhere, we don't even know. 21 THE COURT: Okay. 22 MR. FUGATE: Judge, I think the record of the 23 testimony before Judge Baird was that he had caused 24 the checks to be issued and that he -- that it was 25 from his account, and it went to Mr. Dandar and he
306 1 gave it or handed it to Mr. Dandar. 2 THE COURT: Of course, Mr. Minton admitted to 3 committing perjury? 4 MR. FUGATE: Yes. 5 THE COURT: So we have that -- we can't 6 necessarily just assume everything that he said was 7 true. Maybe what he said before was true. We don't 8 know. 9 I'm asking you, do you have any proof that is 10 his money? 11 MR. FUGATE: I think -- 12 THE COURT: I'm not asking what he would say. 13 I'm asking you, do you have any proof that is his 14 money? 15 MR. FUGATE: It's my understanding that is his 16 money and that he produced a copy of the check to 17 indicate it was his money. 18 THE COURT: Where did he produce it? 19 MR. FUGATE: At the hearing. There is a copy 20 of the check produced in the Baird hearing. 21 THE COURT: Well, that doesn't have his name on 22 it. I saw that. That is a bank check. 23 MR. FUGATE: You asked me a question. That is 24 my answer. 25 THE COURT: So you don't have proof it is his
307 1 other than his word? 2 MR. FUGATE: That's right. 3 THE COURT: All right. So we don't know if 4 it's his money or not yet. Other than he says it 5 is. 6 MR. LIROT: Fine. 7 THE COURT: Let me ask you something, while I'm 8 thinking about it, if I may, ma'am. 9 MR. FUGATE: Judge, he did cause that check to 10 be produced by calling his bank and having copies 11 from his bank sent to him -- 12 THE COURT: I want to know if we have something 13 from that bank that says this account -- this money 14 came from an account that is registered in the name 15 of Robert Minton. If it doesn't -- 16 MR. FUGATE: I don't have anything. 17 THE COURT: I just want to know if you had that 18 kind of proof. If you don't, that is all I need to 19 know. Thank you. Mr. -- I noticed in reading 20 depositions of Mr. Minton I heard that -- well, 21 let's put it this way, in reading the testimony of 22 Mr. Dandar, Mr. Dandar indicates that this money, 23 according to Mr. Minton, came from some third party, 24 unknown anonymous source. And I felt that was 25 fairly outrageous that anybody would believe you
308 1 could get $500,000. To me, that is a huge sum of 2 money, from somebody that nobody knew from Europe. 3 And so as I'm reading this deposition of 4 Mr. Minton, I see where Mr. Minton said over and 5 over the same thing about LMT. Which is your 6 corporation. That you got $300,000, because that is 7 the money he put in, from some -- I can't remember 8 who this guy is, some fellow, apparently also an 9 anti-Scientology person, with a German name. 10 THE WITNESS: Yes. 11 THE COURT: Mr. Lund or something like that. 12 MR. DANDAR: Andreas Heidal-Lund.-- 13 THE WITNESS: Yes. 14 THE COURT: Then LMT got a $500,000 anonymous 15 donor from someplace in Europe, is that true? 16 THE WITNESS: At that time, that is -- 17 THE COURT: I'm asking you now, is that true? 18 THE WITNESS: No, it's not. 19 THE COURT: Where did the money from? 20 THE WITNESS: From Mr. Minton. 21 THE COURT: So Mr. Minton forgot to tell us he 22 lied about that, too. 23 Proceed. 24 BY MR. LIROT: 25 Q Now --
309 1 THE COURT: That is something difficult, that 2 is another one of these anonymous things that I 3 thought was about as weird as what I had heard 4 Mr. Dandar say. But apparently that is something 5 Mr. Minton likes to say. So it may not be so weird. 6 Apparently he likes to say it. He said it under 7 oath at least once, if not twice, and I don't 8 believe he recanted that. So you best be hurrying. 9 Proceed. 10 MR. LIROT: All right. 11 THE COURT: I thought that was weird when I 12 read it for the second time. 13 BY MR. LIROT: 14 Q Ms. Brooks, apparently you did not know about that 15 check at the time that -- let me back up a moment. 16 You said it's a relatively recent revelation that 17 the check Mr. Minton testified about not coming from him 18 actually was his money? 19 A No. I don't believe that is what I said. If I 20 did, that is not correct. 21 Q Well, when did he tell you that he had lied about 22 that money, the $500,000 check? 23 A That is -- I don't remember when he went into 24 deposition after it happened. I know that he told me about 25 the money that he had given Mr. Dandar very soon after he
310 1 gave it to him in May of 2000. 2 Q This is the $500,000? 3 A Yes. 4 Q And he told you it was his money? 5 A Yes. 6 Q All right. Were you there -- 7 A He told Mr. Dandar it was -- 8 Q How do you know? 9 A Mmm -- 10 Q I'll ask it another way. Were you there when 11 Mr. Minton said, "Here is $500,000"? Were you there? 12 A I don't believe so. 13 Q You have no idea what Mr. Minton told Mr. Dandar? 14 A Only what he told me. 15 Q Only after the fact. So my question is, what do 16 you know specifically Mr. Minton told Mr. Dandar upon the 17 tender of the $500,000 check? 18 A Only what he told me he said. 19 Q Okay. Who told you that it was his money? 20 A Mr. Minton. 21 Q All right. Did the Church tell you it was his 22 money? 23 A Mmm, I don't believe so. What do you mean? When? 24 Q I'm -- 25 A Ever?
311 1 Q Did they know? 2 A Sorry? 3 Q Ever? Did the Church ever say, "We know this 4 $500,000 is Mr. Minton's"? 5 THE COURT: Are you talking about during these 6 confidential meetings that went on? 7 MR. LIROT: That would include that, Judge. 8 THE COURT: Why don't you include that because 9 that would be the most -- the time she might have 10 heard it. 11 BY MR. LIROT: 12 Q Okay. During these meetings did you ever hear 13 from the Church, "Mr. Minton, we know this is your money, we 14 know you lied about it, you are in some hot water here"? 15 A No. 16 Q Never once? 17 A Never once. 18 Q Okay. 19 A Mr. Minton was the one who brought that up. 20 Q Did you lie about that check in your deposition? 21 A I don't believe it came up in my deposition. 22 Q Okay. So the only lies you told were about the 23 Lisa McPherson Trust agreement for the bulk of the money or 24 something like that? 25 A Well, I don't know if you see my recantation, but