Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida
Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500
Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 431 1 IN THE CIRCUIT COURT FOR PINELLAS COUNTY, FLORIDA CASE NO. 00-5682-CI-11 2 3 4 5 DELL LIEBREICH, as Personal 6 Representative of the ESTATE OF LISA McPHERSON, 7 8 Plaintiff, 9 vs. VOLUME 4 10 CHURCH OF SCIENTOLOGY FLAG SERVICE ORGANIZATION, JANIS 11 JOHNSON, ALAIN KARTUZINSKI and DAVID HOUGHTON, D.D.S., 12 Defendants. 13 _______________________________________/ 14 15 16 PROCEEDINGS: Defendants' Ominbus Motion for Terminating Sanctions and Other Relief. 17 DATE: May 7, 2002. 18 PLACE: Courtroom B, Judicial Buiding 19 St. Petersburg, Florida. 20 BEFORE: Honorable Susan F. Schaeffer, Circuit Judge. 21 REPORTED BY: Lynne J. Ide RMR. 22 Deputy Official Court Reporter, Sixth Judicial Circuit of Florida. 23 24 25
432 1 APPEARANCES: 2 MR. KENNAN G. DANDAR DANDAR & DANDAR 3 5340 West Kennedy Blvd., Suite 201 Tampa, FL 33602 4 Attorney for Plaintiff. 5 MR. LUKE CHARLES LIROT LUKE CHARLES LIROT, PA 6 112 N East Street, Street, Suite B Tampa, FL 33602-4108 7 Attorney for Plaintiff. 8 MR. KENDRICK MOXON MOXON & KOBRIN 9 1100 Cleveland Street, Suite 900 Clearwater, FL 33755 10 Attorney for Church of Scientology Flag Service Organization. 11 MS. HELENA KOBRIN 12 MOXON & KOBRIN 1100 Cleveland Street, Suite 900 13 Clearwater, FL 33755 Attorney for David Houghton. 14 MR. LEE FUGATE and 15 MR. MORRIS WEINBERG, JR. and ZUCKERMAN, SPAEDER 16 101 E. Kennedy Blvd, Suite 1200 Tampa, FL 33602-5147 17 Attorneys for Church of Scientology Flag Service Organization. 18 MICHAEL LEE HERTZBERG 19 740 Broadway, Fifth Floor New York, New York 10003 20 Attorney for Church of Scientology Flag Service Organization. 21 MR. ERIC M. LIEBERMAN 22 RABINOWITZ, BOUDIN, STANDARD 740 Broadway at Astor Place 23 New York, NY 10003-9518 Attorney for Church of Scientology Flag Service 24 Organization. 25
433 1 APPEARANCES: (Continued) 2 MR. THOMAS H. MCGOWAN MCGOWAN & SUAREZ, LLP 3 150 2nd Avenue North, Suite 870 St. Petersburg, FL 33701-3381 4 Attorney for Stacy Brooks. 5 ALSO PRESENT: 6 Ms. Donna West 7 Ms. Dell Liebreich Mr. Rick Spector 8 Mr. Allan Cartwright Ms. Lara Cartwright 9 Ms. Sarah Heller Mr. Ben Shaw 10 Ms. Joyce Earl 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
434 1 THE COURT: Good morning. All right, we are 2 ready for you, Mr. Lirot, to proceed. You can stay 3 there if you like. 4 MR. LIROT: Good morning. Thank you, Judge. 5 BY MR. LIROT: 6 Q Ms. Brooks -- 7 A Excuse me, Mr. Lirot, I'm sorry about this, but I 8 can't see you very well all of the way back there. I would 9 rather you sit/stand at the podium, if you wouldn't mind. 10 THE COURT: I'm going to let him stay there. 11 Just do the best you can. 12 THE WITNESS: All right. 13 THE COURT: And the reason is, is because his 14 co-counsel there -- it's very distracting to me, 15 with co-counsel coming up. 16 THE WITNESS: I understand. 17 MR. LIROT: Very good, thank you, Judge. I 18 apologize, I'll make myself as visible as I can 19 here. 20 THE WITNESS: It's not your fault, it's my 21 eyesight. 22 BY MR. LIROT: 23 Q I wanted to ask you some questions initially about 24 your affidavit. And this would be -- 25 MR. FUGATE: Excuse me, which affidavit?
435 1 MR. LIROT: I was going to get there. I was 2 going to describe it. I think it is Exhibit 72. 3 MR. FUGATE: Okay. Thank you. 4 BY MR. LIROT: 5 Q The one I guess you signed on April 29, it has 6 certificate of service for April 30th. I think Mr. McGowan 7 signed it -- 8 THE COURT: Do you have that? 9 THE WITNESS: Yes, I do, your Honor. 10 THE COURT: I do, too. 11 BY MR. LIROT: 12 Q You had mentioned yesterday that -- 13 THE COURT: Oh, that is not an exhibit. That 14 is -- just actually has been filed -- oh, it's 72 15 to -- 16 MR. FUGATE: To the memorandum -- 17 THE COURT: But it's not in evidence in this 18 case. It's 72 to the memorandum, and it has been 19 filed with the court. 20 MR. FUGATE: Right. 21 THE COURT: Okay. 22 BY MR. LIROT: 23 Q I guess I'll ask you some questions -- 24 THE COURT: Oh, before I get started -- 25 MR. LIROT: I'm, Judge --
436 1 THE COURT: -- I wanted to bring something to 2 everyone's attention in the courtroom. I have been 3 advised that there have been some discussions with 4 witnesses or attempt to speak to witnesses outside 5 of the courtroom or otherwise coming from both 6 sides. It's got to stop. Before you know it, those 7 can be considered tampering with witness charges. 8 We can expand this hearing well beyond this. 9 So this is important to anyone in the audience, 10 and I presume you'll pass it on to the witnesses and 11 anybody else. You're not to talk, directly or 12 indirectly, to any of the witnesses that are going 13 to be called in this case. 14 MR. LIROT: I'll pass it on, Judge. 15 THE COURT: All right. 16 BY MR. LIROT: 17 Q Now -- 18 THE COURT: And -- I'm sorry, if you have 19 witnesses that aren't present or if you have people 20 that aren't present that regularly attend otherwise, 21 would you please, for both sides, pass that on to 22 them? 23 MR. WEINBERG: Yes. 24 MR. LIROT: Very good, Judge. 25 THE COURT: I have made this as an order.
437 1 There is to be no contact with any witness, directly 2 or indirectly, in this hearing throughout the 3 pendency of this proceeding. 4 MR. LIROT: Very good. 5 THE COURT: Thank you. 6 BY MR. LIROT: 7 Q Ms. Brooks, I guess you said that you had met with 8 Ms. Yingling. Bring me up to how you got from your original 9 concerns about Mr. Minton's I guess traumatized state. How 10 did you describe it? You saw that Mr. Minton wasn't talking 11 to people and was very distraught? 12 A Yes. 13 Q Well, describe his condition to me a little more, 14 if you would. 15 A Mmm, he was becoming very distraught. He was 16 depressed. He was very frightened about what the courts 17 were going to do to him in this case and in the breach case. 18 Judge Schaeffer and Judge Baird. I think that is -- 19 Q And that was it? Those were the only things that 20 he mentioned to you about his concern? Or was that just 21 your perception? 22 A That is what he was worried about. He was very 23 concerned about Judge Baird and Judge Schaeffer. 24 Q And that was it? 25 A Yes.
438 1 Q Those were the only things? 2 A Well, that was a pretty big thing. He was -- he 3 was -- he was feeling that -- 4 Q Well -- 5 A -- that both judges in both cases were -- well, he 6 was feeling basically that -- you know -- both of the judges 7 in both of the cases were going to find him in contempt, put 8 him in jail; that he was -- he had lied to both Courts, and 9 he basically felt like he was in a situation that had no way 10 out. He felt really trapped. He felt like Mr. Dandar was 11 holding him hostage to the case now. 12 Q Well, how could that be? How can Mr. Dandar hold 13 Mr. Minton hostage to anything? 14 A Because Mr. Minton felt that Mr. Dandar had 15 encouraged him and pressured him to lie under oath, and that 16 Mr. Dandar knew that this had happened. He had tried to 17 talk to him about another way to -- the only other way that 18 either of us could think to avoid -- or to get out of this 19 situation was to drop the case. And Mr. Dandar had said on 20 several occasions, in my presence, "But, Bob, even if you go 21 to jail, it won't affect the case." And so -- 22 Q So he's not held hostage? 23 A Excuse me. I'm not finished. 24 And so Mr. Minton felt very strongly that 25 Mr. Dandar had betrayed him and used him and -- and -- and,
439 1 Mmm, he was very, very depressed about it. 2 Q Well, what was to stop -- I take it that you were 3 Mr. Minton's confidant. You talked to Mr. Minton about 4 things that troubled him. You are close to Mr. Minton. You 5 see that he's in -- I think in a distraught state. Why not 6 just go to the Court? Why not go to the Court, say, "Hey, I 7 lied about a check, I lied about this agreement people are 8 talking about"? Why go to the opposition? Why try to get 9 the case dismissed? I guess I'll ask the first question. 10 Why would you go to your opponents when your 11 concern is not with your opponents but with statements made 12 under oath to the Court? 13 A Because the only other possibility -- well, that 14 is a lot of questions you just asked me. 15 I think the best way to answer it would be -- and 16 I think I have said this before, but I'll say it again -- 17 Mr. Minton felt a very strong sense that he would be 18 betraying the whole cause if he came forward to the Court. 19 He felt a very strong sense that, Mmm, all of the people 20 that he's worked with, all of the people that have very 21 strong feelings against Scientology, would turn against him 22 if he did something that would hurt the case. 23 Q Well -- 24 A And the only other possibility that we could see 25 was to try to settle with Scientology and get them to let us
440 1 both walk away from this whole thing. 2 THE COURT: Quite candidly, ma'am, was there a 3 bigger fear of the opponent than there was of the 4 Court? 5 THE WITNESS: I'm sorry? 6 THE COURT: I mean, I'm not sure if that is 7 responsive or not. The question is why did you go 8 to the opponent rather than the Court. Sounds like 9 what you said, that information could have been 10 brought through Mr. Howie, through your counsel, to 11 the Court, as well as going to the other side. So 12 is there -- 13 THE WITNESS: Right. 14 THE COURT: -- some thought that you were 15 afraid of the opponent just like you were of the 16 Court? 17 THE WITNESS: Well, we basically got to the 18 point where we felt like there really wasn't any 19 place to turn, there wasn't really any good road for 20 us to go down. We -- Mr. Minton was extremely 21 afraid of what the Court would do, very afraid of 22 what the Court would do, and -- and as I said, 23 hoping that Scientology would let him walk away from 24 this thing and not -- and, thereby, allowing him not 25 to have to go through what we're now going through.
441 1 BY MR. LIROT: 2 Q How does Scientology have the ability to do 3 anything about something that you have stated under oath 4 that is a lie? I don't -- 5 A Well -- 6 Q Explain that to me, please. 7 A Okay. Because -- and I mean, you know, this was 8 probably incorrect, but our thinking was that -- sorry -- 9 our thinking was that if -- 10 Q I'm listening. 11 A Our thinking was that if we settled with 12 Scientology, then they would stop any further discovery into 13 either one of us, and the whole issue of us would just not 14 be a part of the case any more and we could just be free of 15 all of it. 16 Q Well, that is not worried about, what you have 17 already done. That is a fear about what may happen in the 18 future. Right? 19 A That is what we were -- that's what he was so 20 afraid of. He was afraid of what was going to happen with 21 Judge Schaeffer's order that he -- Mmm, you know, go back in 22 deposition. There was an ongoing, Mmm, situation before 23 Judge Baird. And he was very afraid of what was going to 24 happen in the future. That is what we were trying to deal 25 with.
442 1 THE COURT: Let's see if I understand this 2 correctly. And if I understand this correctly, you 3 thought that if the case were dropped, the 4 Scientology would not -- the Church would not pursue 5 any additional discovery and then, I guess, 6 therefore, there would be no need to reveal the 7 perjury. 8 THE WITNESS: Exactly, your Honor. But not -- 9 we weren't thinking that -- well, we didn't feel 10 that getting the case dropped was an option any 11 longer, but we were hoping that Scientology would 12 let us settle and thereby stop the discovery and 13 thereby get us out of this. 14 BY MR. LIROT: 15 Q Well, what was it in that discovery that bothered 16 you? What specifically? 17 A Because Scientology kept asking questions about 18 the money and questions about these -- this agreement. 19 Every time he would go into deposition. 20 Q And nobody objected that those questions were 21 asked and answered? I mean, wasn't that -- 22 THE COURT: You know what, Counsel, she 23 explained this several times. If you think there 24 are other motives or reasons, get to it and ask her. 25
443 1 BY MR. LIROT: 2 Q All right. Well, let me draw your attention to 3 this time line you did. I think this was Exhibit 4 4 yesterday, your Honor. And this was the time line we spoke 5 about. 6 Do you have a copy of it? 7 A Let's see. 8 MR. LIROT: Judge, we made some clean copies 9 off the website yesterday -- 10 THE COURT: Okay. 11 MR. LIROT: -- and I -- 12 A No, I don't. 13 MR. LIROT: If I may approach, your Honor. 14 THE COURT: You may. 15 I read through this last night just a little 16 bit, but frankly, I didn't see any notes on my copy. 17 My copy just seemed to have pages penned in, so I 18 don't need another copy so -- 19 MR. LIROT: I'll give this one to the clerk 20 then. 21 THE COURT: What is that? I didn't have that. 22 MR. LIROT: This is the same thing, Judge, if I 23 could hand that to you. 24 What that is, your Honor, that is -- I guess it 25 depends on what the computer capability is. This is
444 1 just the text, and I guess that one has actually the 2 photographs. 3 But as I understand it, it's the same document. 4 THE COURT: Is this the one to be filed? 5 MR. LIROT: Yes, please. 6 THE COURT: All right, Madam Clerk. 7 It's got a picture on it. 8 MR. LIROT: This one has a picture and I think 9 the text is identical. I don't know of any other 10 differences but -- 11 THE WITNESS: Mr. Lirot, mine is all cut off on 12 the side, the words are all cut off. It's not a 13 full copy. 14 THE COURT: Let me see this, Madam Clerk. So 15 is this one. 16 MR. LIROT: Well, then I guess we'll have to 17 give you another clean copy, Judge. 18 MR. WEINBERG: So is ours. 19 MR. LIROT: Let me have that one back and let 20 me take a look at it. 21 MR. FUGATE: It's on the side. The same thing. 22 MR. LIROT: Well, then, Judge, apparently I 23 don't have any explanation for this. 24 THE COURT: Is that just the first -- no, it's 25 all of the pages?
445 1 MR. LIROT: No, the whole thing is like that, 2 Judge. 3 THE COURT: Well, I can't give up mine because 4 I made notes on it and because I -- 5 MR. LIROT: No, that is the other one. The 6 other one should not be cut off. The one I 7 introduced yesterday should have the full text. 8 THE COURT: Let me see that one because I 9 didn't see any notes. So let's see what they 10 introduced yesterday. And I'll look it over. If 11 there aren't any notes -- 12 THE CLERK: Is that the one we were to get a 13 clean copy? We never got it. 14 THE COURT: You never got it? 15 THE CLERK: No. 16 THE COURT: Well, it's all right. You still 17 need to get a clean copy that has the -- 18 MR. LIROT: I will. Judge, during the break 19 I'll have a copy of the one that we handed up -- 20 THE COURT: All right. 21 MR. LIROT: -- copied in the law library. I'll 22 make sure we get a clean copy of that. I apologize. 23 THE COURT: Does Ms. Brooks have that one to 24 review for this questioning? Do you have -- 25 THE WITNESS: No, I only have the one that is
446 1 cut off. 2 MR. FUGATE: Judge -- make sure, Judge, we are 3 talking about the same thing. 4 THE COURT: It's the same thing. 5 MR. LIROT: Let me just -- 6 MR. FUGATE: This is the one -- 7 MR. LIROT: 1 to 52; 51, 52? 8 MR. FUGATE: Yes, okay. 9 MR. LIROT: That is the one. 10 MR. FUGATE: Thank you, judge. 11 MR. LIROT: Judge, the document I'll be 12 referring to is hand-numbered -- 13 THE COURT: Do you have a copy for the witness? 14 MR. LIROT: 1 through 52. And this one has 15 pages 1 through 40. But as I understand it, this 16 has the full text. I'm just going to be referring 17 to the dates, Judge, so I'll hand this up to the 18 witness. I'll not be referring to any of the page 19 numbers. 20 THE COURT: Okay. 21 MR. LIROT: And I'll take this incomplete copy 22 back. 23 THE COURT: Maybe this isn't the same thing. 24 Mine ends with -- no, it's the same thing. Okay. 25 MR. LIROT: I apologize for the confusion,
447 1 Judge. I -- I'll approach. Every time you print 2 these off the computer, I guess it depends how the 3 margins are set and -- 4 THE COURT: Probably. 5 MR. LIROT: -- and a variety of other issues 6 there. 7 All right. So for the record, Judge, my 8 questions will be based on the document that we 9 provided yesterday, time line of Scientology's 10 harassment of Robert S. Minton and colleagues. 11 THE COURT: Which is what number? 12 MR. LIROT: I believe it was Number 4. Exhibit 13 4 yesterday. 14 THE COURT: All right. 15 MR. LIROT: And I think she authenticated this 16 and talked about it a little bit. 17 THE COURT: Yes. 18 MR. WEINBERG: Could I ask one question? 19 THE COURT: Yes. 20 MR. WEINBERG: As I understand it, the witness 21 only has part of that exhibit now? 22 MR. LIROT: She has the whole exhibit. 23 MR. WEINBERG: I thought you said she had 1 24 through 40. 25 MR. LIROT: It's the same exhibit. It's just
448 1 in a smaller type face. 2 THE WITNESS: But this is really different 3 because there is -- if you look at this, it looks 4 like things have been typed in separately. And this 5 is not readable and so it's not really the same. 6 THE COURT: Use my copy. Or, better yet, if 7 you all have more than one copy, I could have my own 8 copy. Do you have more than one? 9 MR. FUGATE: I have got the one -- yes, Judge. 10 THE COURT: All right. You let me have mine 11 back and they'll give you one. 12 THE WITNESS: All right. 13 MR. FUGATE: May I approach? Or -- 14 THE COURT: You may. 15 MR. LIROT: It is 1 through 52? 16 MR. FUGATE: Well, I didn't look. So I'm 17 guilty as -- it's 1 through 52. 18 THE COURT: And that is the one I have. 19 MR. LIROT: Thank you, Mr. Fugate. 20 BY MR. LIROT: 21 Q All right, now, you have a copy of the time line 22 pages 1 through 52? 23 A Yes, I do. 24 Q We all have the same sheet music here. All right. 25 Now, you authored this document for a large part,
449 1 didn't you? 2 A For the most part, yes. 3 Q All right. And I guess there is an introduction 4 here that talks about Mr. Minton's, I guess, background and 5 his degree. And it says he has a bachelor of science, and 6 then talks about his interest in the Internet -- 7 THE COURT: Counselor, please. We don't need 8 to have you read something you have introduced into 9 evidence. So get whatever it is you want to get to. 10 BY MR. LIROT: 11 Q All right, on the bottom of the fourth paragraph, 12 the last sentence there where it says that with his first 13 public protest in Clearwater, he became -- he now came to 14 the attention of the Scientology's Office of Special 15 Affairs. 16 What is that? I think you describe it in the next 17 paragraph. 18 A Mmm, well, I think I describe it in the next 19 paragraph. 20 Q Well, why don't you tell the Court what it is, in 21 your own words? 22 A Office of Special Affairs is the part of 23 Scientology that I used to be a part of when I was in 24 Scientology for most of my career in Scientology. And it 25 has basically the -- its role is to deal with, you know,
450 1 basically all of the different -- well, basically its role 2 is to interface with various aspects of society for 3 Scientology, including the courts, the media -- well, 4 primarily the courts and the media, and -- and they also are 5 the part of Scientology that deals with, you know, critics 6 of Scientology, like I was -- like I was, or Mr. Minton, you 7 know. 8 I mean, they basically deal with everything that 9 would distract from what Scientology is supposed -- is 10 trying to do, you know, with their own people. Does that 11 make sense? 12 Q In this it says that OSA's methods include 13 harassment of the individual and his or her family and 14 associates. 15 Have you seen that happen? 16 A Yes. I think I described it yesterday. 17 Q And it says, "Causing the individual legal 18 problems in whatever ways possible. Isolating the 19 individual from family and friends and, where possible, by 20 either legal or illegal means, causing the individual to be 21 arrested." 22 Explain that to me. What instances of that did 23 you see? 24 A Illegal means, I'm not -- I'm not able to give you 25 examples of. Where are you reading from? I'm not --
451 1 Q I'm at the bottom of the fifth paragraph, 2 basically in the middle. Three lines up, four lines up from 3 the bottom? 4 A Okay. I see that. I see that. 5 Q Did you write this part? 6 A Yes, I wrote the whole thing. 7 Q All right. Well, you continue on here, it says, 8 "Causing the individual to be arrested, tried and convicted 9 of criminal acts." Then it says, "By bringing about a 10 criminal conviction, Scientology would of course be able to 11 discredit the critic and thereby neutralize his or her 12 effectiveness." 13 Did you see that happen? 14 A I'm just trying to remember what I was thinking 15 about when -- when I wrote that. The last sentence -- 16 THE COURT: Let me ask you this. Did you think 17 that that might be what was going on with the Jesse 18 Prince arrest and prosecution? 19 THE WITNESS: Yes, your Honor. 20 THE COURT: So would that be an example of what 21 you were referring to? 22 THE WITNESS: That would be an example. 23 THE COURT: Had Jesse Prince been convicted of 24 a felony and had he come in and been convicted, he 25 would come in and be asked have you ever been
452 1 convicted of a felony, and he would say yes and he 2 would be discredited? 3 THE WITNESS: Exactly. 4 BY MR. LIROT: 5 Q What about Mr. Minton's arrest? Wasn't Mr. Minton 6 arrested here in Clearwater? 7 A Yes. Let me just add one thing. 8 The only thing that I would correct is that I 9 don't believe there was any illegal means used. 10 Yes, Mr. Minton was arrested. 11 THE COURT: So you are telling us now that you 12 don't believe in your printing here that you ever 13 saw the Church use illegal means to cause an 14 individual to be arrested, tried and convicted of 15 criminal acts? 16 THE WITNESS: No, I don't believe I did. 17 BY MR. LIROT: 18 Q Now, in the next paragraph you began, and this is 19 on Page 2, it says, "In 1980, a number of high-ranking 20 Scientologists were themselves convicted of criminal conduct 21 as a result of illegal actions taken to silence critics." 22 What personal knowledge do you have of that? 23 A Oh, I was in Scientology when -- when this 24 happened, when the arrests -- when the convictions occurred. 25 My characterization of it as being the result of illegal
453 1 actions taken to silence critics was a little bit for the 2 purpose of this document that I was writing. 3 What actually happened was a number of people who 4 were in the guardian's office, which is what the Office of 5 Special Affairs -- what used to be -- what used to deal with 6 those same functions, Mmm, some of the people that were in 7 the guardian's office did commit illegal acts, breaking and 8 entering into government offices. It was part of a program 9 in which they were trying to correct what they considered to 10 be false reports in government files about Scientology. And 11 some of these people did -- 12 MR. FUGATE: Judge, excuse me, I'm being 13 patient, but this affidavit describes this as 14 happening in 1980 and I don't know what the 15 relevance of it would be to this motion. And all 16 those people, as I understand it, were discharged 17 from the Church, so I don't know what the 18 relevance -- 19 THE COURT: Well, the relevance is if she 20 thought the Church would be pursuing Mr. Minton to 21 be arrested and -- and charged with a criminal act, 22 then that may be some motive for their actions, 23 which is what I believe he's trying to -- 24 MR. FUGATE: I'm only objecting to this 1980 25 reference to guardian's office because as I
454 1 understand it that is no longer -- hasn't been in 2 effect since 1980, and I don't know what relevance 3 it has to these proceedings. That is my objection. 4 THE COURT: Your objection is overruled. 5 A This 1980 incident is sort of always what critics 6 of Scientology hold up as -- critics always kind of hold it 7 up as something that is like the same kinds of things that 8 are happening now in Scientology. That is -- that is why I 9 brought it up in this thing. I mean, you'll see that 10 brought up by -- 11 BY MR. LIROT: 12 Q I think you say the exact same thing at the bottom 13 of that paragraph? 14 A That it's the same -- 15 Q The Office of Special -- 16 A It -- 17 THE COURT: Wait, we can't have everybody 18 talking at the same time. So go on ahead, Counsel. 19 BY MR. LIROT: 20 Q It says, "However, the Office of Special Affairs 21 replaced the Guardian's Office, and evidence reveals that 22 the same tactics have continued uninterrupted to this day. 23 Mr. Minton will soon discover how relentless OSA can be." 24 You wrote that? 25 A I did. And you can see by that sentence, you
455 1 know, I was writing this to be as -- sorry -- I was writing 2 it to be as dramatic as I possibly could. And, you know, I 3 think I created quite a -- quite some drama here. 4 Q Well, I guess depending on which computer you use, 5 you have got 52 pages of entries here. Wouldn't you say 6 that that certainly shows that whatever -- whatever was 7 happening would certainly be justifiably called relentless? 8 A Yes, I'm just -- 9 Q I don't think that is a lot of editorial liberty, 10 are you? 11 A No, I'm just saying the way it is written is to 12 create the most dramatic effect possible. That is why I 13 brought up with regard -- the thing that happened in 1980. 14 I mean, I -- I realized that the people that committed those 15 crimes and were convicted of them were, I guess, discharged, 16 as Mr. Fugate said, and that -- you know, I mean, there 17 isn't anybody in Scientology that I know of that condoned 18 what those people did, but -- 19 Q Okay. 20 A But what I'm saying is critics used that as, you 21 know -- I mean, it was a really, really bad thing to happen, 22 and critics use it to paint Scientology in the worst 23 possible light. 24 Q You talk about, in the next paragraph, you talk 25 about Mr. Minton. And I think you make reference to
456 1 Mr. Minton provided -- I'm starting in the middle here of 2 the second paragraph on the page hand-numbered 2. 3 "Mr. Minton also provided financial assistance to 4 several Scientology critics, including Grady Ward, Keith 5 Hensen, Lawrence Wollersheim and Arnaldo Lerma, who had 6 become targets of Scientology's infamous 'Fair Game' 7 practices, in which anyone who is identified as an 'enemy' 8 can be tricked, sued, lied to or destroyed for the good of 9 Scientology." 10 What is the Fair Game practice or policy? 11 MR. FUGATE: Your Honor, first of all, I object 12 to that because it's my understanding that that is 13 no longer -- that that was a writing that occurred 14 years ago and it was withdrawn. And I don't know 15 what her knowledge of it is in its current state, 16 and I would object to it on that basis. 17 THE COURT: Well, it is overruled because this 18 all goes to the right to cross-examine to see 19 whether or not this court will believe their 20 rationale for coming forward with this perjury, and 21 therefore whatever is in her mind is relevant. 22 Now, your objection, therefore, is overruled at 23 this time. 24 MR. FUGATE: I'm objecting for the record, 25 Judge.
457 1 THE COURT: All right. I understand. 2 BY MR. LIROT: 3 Q What did you know about the Fair Game practice? 4 A Well -- 5 Q Let me ask you another question. What years were 6 you a member of Scientology? 7 A Mmm, from 1975 until 1989. 8 Q Okay. 9 THE COURT: I hate to do this, but, more 10 importantly, at the time you all were trying to work 11 something out with Scientology, at the time when 12 Mr. Minton was distraught and you were telling him 13 what you believed, what he believed, did you think 14 this Fair Game practice could be used against you 15 and Mr. Minton? 16 THE WITNESS: Mmm, I thought that what 17 Scientology was doing was using the legal system to 18 get us in as much trouble as they could. 19 THE COURT: I don't know what the Fair Game -- 20 is that the Fair Game policy? 21 THE WITNESS: Well, no, the Fair Game policy -- 22 and again, your Honor, you know, the Fair Game 23 policy is another thing that -- I mean, you have to 24 understand, you know, I was -- I was part of a group 25 of advocates. I was part of a group of very,
458 1 very -- Mmm, how do you say it -- you know, who had 2 a very clear agenda to destroy Scientology. 3 And Fair Game policy is another one of these 4 sort of buzz words that the critic community uses 5 and that I use a lot to paint Scientology in the 6 worst possible light. 7 What the Fair Game policy -- I mean, Mr. Fugate 8 is correct when he says that the policy itself is 9 cancelled back in the '60s sometime, but, you know, 10 anybody who is a critic of Scientology -- and when I 11 say critic of Scientology, I mean that is sort of a 12 broad term for this community of people who feel 13 very strongly that Scientology should be done away 14 with. 15 Fair Game is a term -- well, it is basically 16 what I say here, you know, that anybody who is a 17 critic of Scientology can be basically destroyed for 18 the good of Scientology. That is how critics feel 19 about it. 20 THE COURT: And even though -- I'm sorry, but 21 even though the policy itself has been undone, I 22 take it, and they say we don't do that anymore, we 23 don't have a Fair Game policy, if they ever had one, 24 in your mind and in Mr. Minton's mind, whether they 25 did away with it or not, that is what you feared --
459 1 well, this is what you wrote, this is what you 2 feared would happen and continue to happen if you 3 didn't pull yourselves out of this litigation and 4 all of the other litigation? 5 THE WITNESS: Yes. And -- and, Mmm, you know, 6 we basically came to feel that -- you know, we found 7 ourselves in such a terrible position because we -- 8 we -- and I -- and I really can't explain this to 9 you because we don't understand it -- but we were in 10 a situation where not only was Scientology closing 11 in on us legally, but the critic community had 12 totally turned against us, too. 13 There were very few people, really only a 14 handful of people any longer, who -- I just can't 15 begin to describe to you -- you know, we -- another 16 aspect of the reason Mr. Minton was so upset, and I 17 think he covered this in his affidavit, you may have 18 read about this -- but when he had told Mr. Dandar 19 that he wasn't going to fund the case anymore, this 20 smear campaign had been launched against him and me 21 within the critic community. 22 THE COURT: And that is part of this, I read 23 part of it last night. 24 THE WITNESS: No, this isn't in the time line. 25 THE COURT: Oh, okay. Was that in something
460 1 else I read? 2 THE WITNESS: No. You did read some posts in 3 here, but these are not the ones I'm talking about. 4 Those were anonymous postings we believe were being 5 done by Scientologists. Whether they were being 6 done by Scientologists or not, I can't tell you. 7 They were anonymous posts. 8 But then what started happening was after he 9 stopped funding the case, Mmm, a lot of the critics 10 who were working with Mr. Dandar just totally turned 11 on Mr. Minton and me and really put us in a 12 situation where it was a worse attack against us 13 than even what was happening from Scientology or 14 what they had ever done. 15 And so we kind of found ourselves wondering, 16 why are we doing this anymore? You know, what's the 17 use? I mean, it really -- it really was the most 18 discouraging experience you could imagine. 19 And it caused us to start to wonder, really, if 20 we had been right about our feelings about 21 Scientology. And I think -- I think I would have to 22 say that the thing -- 23 THE COURT: I think you are well past the 24 answer to the question. 25 MR. LIROT: I think so, Judge.
461 1 THE WITNESS: But I just -- I just wanted to 2 say -- 3 MR. LIROT: May I approach? 4 THE WITNESS: -- that was probably the thing 5 that started us on this path more than anything 6 else. 7 BY MR. LIROT: 8 Q Let me hand you two pieces of documents here. 9 MR. LIROT: Judge, I'll give my copy to the 10 clerk. I think these would be Plaintiff's 8 and 9. 11 MR. FUGATE: Judge, these I would object to for 12 the very reason I stated before. I think this is 13 the policy and the cancellation, and I don't know 14 that it is relevant at all. 15 MR. LIROT: Well -- 16 THE COURT: Well, I -- 17 MR. MOXON: This is not the policy, your Honor. 18 I have to take diversion from Mr. Fugate because he 19 doesn't know. 20 MR. LIROT: We'll get into that, judge. 21 THE COURT: All right. 22 MR. MOXON: This is not a policy of the Church. 23 Except for the cancellation, Fair Game, it's the 24 kind of issue that I would like to address with you 25 in some detail. And obviously it's the kind of
462 1 thing Mr. Dandar would like to bring into this case 2 to cast dispersions on the Church because this 3 witness already testified even this term was 4 cancelled in the 1960s. 5 THE COURT: If that is an objection, Counsel, 6 you have made it and it is overruled. 7 BY MR. LIROT: 8 Q Ms. Brooks, in your activities I guess as a 9 consultant or expert witness, you provided copies of the 10 Fair Game policy to attorneys working for clients that had 11 interests adverse to the Church, did you not? 12 A Yes. And I advised them to bring it up at every 13 opportunity with the Court. 14 Q Okay. Describe to me what -- Page 1 apparently is 15 entitled: "Hubbard Communication Office, Saint Hill Manor, 16 East Krinstead, Sussex." 17 A It is Grinstead. 18 Q Grinstead? I'm sorry. Tell me what that document 19 is. 20 THE COURT: Well now, Counsel, we just don't 21 need it. I can read it. I can see what it says, 22 and I'm about to sustain their objection. You are 23 not -- 24 MR. LIROT: All right. 25 THE COURT: -- doing what you need to do to
463 1 make this relevant to this case. If she doesn't 2 believe, despite the cancellation, that this policy 3 was still in effect, it has no relevancy. I think 4 she said that. So at this point in time I just 5 would move on. 6 MR. LIROT: All right. 7 THE COURT: I mean, the fact of the matter is 8 whatever the Fair Game policy is in writing, 9 whatever it was, it was cancelled. That is what 10 they said. 11 MR. LIROT: I'll explore that, your Honor. 12 THE COURT: All right. Then she said that the 13 critics didn't believe it. They still believed that 14 the very thing that the Fair Game policy was -- 15 anyone who is identified as an enemy can be tricked, 16 sued, lied to or destroyed for the good of 17 Scientology, that the critics still believe this is 18 exactly what occurred. 19 So that makes it relevant. I don't know if it 20 makes it relevant what it was or what the policy is 21 or whether this is it or whether it isn't it. 22 Okay. 23 BY MR. LIROT: 24 Q Would you say that what you described in this time 25 line pretty well shows -- and I guess this spans from '96,
464 1 '97, to 2001, would you say that what is included in here 2 generally shows that whatever the Fair Game concept was, it 3 was still alive and well throughout your experience for 4 these matters that you have described in the time line? 5 A Well, that is certainly what I was trying to say. 6 Mmm, however, I would -- I have to tell you that I provided 7 this document to a number of people -- well, I should say 8 attorneys -- trying to get them to use my time line as -- as 9 evidence of Fair Game. And I wasn't able to convince them 10 that what was contained in my time line amounted to what I 11 described as Fair Game. 12 Q You weren't able to convince the attorneys that 13 what was in your time line amounted to -- 14 A To Fair Game. 15 Q Okay. Well, let me take a look at the time line 16 with you. If you'll turn to Page 3, I believe that -- I 17 draw your attention to where you have on the lower half of 18 the page marked 1997. 19 A Yes. 20 Q About -- apparently on September 16, '97, did you 21 write this one? Did you put in this entry? 22 A Yes, I did. 23 Q It says: "Mr. Minton received a telephone call 24 from Elliott Abelson, one of Scientology's attorneys, 25 inquiring about his health after the Clearwater protest he
465 1 had attended in March. Mr. Minton had visited the emergency 2 room at Massachusetts General Hospital after his return to 3 Boston." 4 It says, "Clearly, Mr. Abelson wanted Mr. Minton 5 to know that he knew about the visit, thereby letting 6 Mr. Minton know for the first time he was under surveillance 7 by Scientology. Mr. Abelson made subtle threats at 8 retaliation if Mr. Minton did not start helping 9 Scientology's critics." 10 Does that sound like Fair Game? 11 A Well, I think, you know, like I said, I was 12 writing this whole thing to try to make it all sound like 13 Fair Game. So yes, it all sounds like Fair Game. 14 Q All right. You think -- you think Mr. Abelson 15 called Mr. Minton at the hospital in Massachusetts to make 16 him feel better? 17 A No. I think Mr. Abelson called Mr. Minton to let 18 him know that he was now someone that Scientology was 19 watching. 20 Q And why -- 21 THE COURT: Excuse me just a minute so the 22 record is clear. Maybe this is true, but where is 23 it that you think in this September 16 that it says 24 that Mr. Minton was called at the hospital? 25 THE WITNESS: Yes. He wasn't called at the
466 1 hospital. 2 THE COURT: I read that to assume it was after 3 he returned home he was called to say he was there. 4 Is that -- which is accurate? 5 THE WITNESS: That is correct, your Honor. 6 THE COURT: The way I interpreted it? 7 THE WITNESS: Yes. 8 BY MR. LIROT: 9 Q The next entry you have on October 10, it says -- 10 THE COURT: What that has to do with this case, 11 is it in your mind and in Mr. Minton's mind, as you 12 all discussed this, so you don't know that this was 13 true as to what he thought -- you don't have to say 14 that. But assuming you and he discussed it, in your 15 mind you thought that Mr. Minton was under 16 surveillance? 17 THE WITNESS: Yes. 18 THE COURT: And I suppose that that is 19 something you were trying to get -- you were coming 20 forward to try to get that to go away? 21 THE WITNESS: Yes. 22 BY MR. LIROT: 23 Q Ms. Brooks, you have an entry for -- 24 THE COURT: And to make it clear, you do 25 believe that?
467 1 THE WITNESS: I do believe? 2 THE COURT: That Mr. Minton was under 3 surveillance by the Church of Scientology or 4 somebody working for them? 5 THE WITNESS: Yes, I do. But, you know, your 6 Honor, I point out, I have been -- I have been doing 7 this work since 1993. This whole -- 8 THE COURT: It doesn't really matter whether it 9 is true or not. In other words, we're -- I think 10 what he's trying to explore is motives and what have 11 you. 12 THE WITNESS: I understand. 13 THE COURT: And whether or not what you are 14 saying now is true, or what you said was -- what you 15 are saying now as perjured was true, that is what 16 this hearing is sort of about. 17 THE WITNESS: I understand. 18 THE COURT: So it is what you thought, not 19 necessarily what is accurate. When you make your 20 objections, I think your objections are sometimes 21 made on the basis that is not so. It is all what 22 this lady's mind is, what her mind-set is. 23 MR. FUGATE: Judge, let me make myself clear. 24 I don't want to interfere in your ability to judge 25 her credibility. I just want to make objections
468 1 such as to Fair Game and the cancellation -- 2 THE COURT: I understand and I have no problem. 3 I'm just trying to explain to you that at certain 4 times certain objections you make might be 5 well-founded, and in this hearing everything has to 6 do with what was in her mind when she came forward 7 to make this settlement. And so it's what she 8 believed. 9 I mean, I'm not trying to suggest when I ask 10 her if you believe that, that the Church was or 11 wasn't surveilling her. It's just what she 12 believed. 13 MR. FUGATE: I -- I understand that, your 14 Honor. 15 THE COURT: And whether Fair Game was cancelled 16 or whether it wasn't cancelled, if she knew of the 17 policy and it's what she described, whether she 18 believed that that is what could and would happen if 19 they didn't back off. So I just -- just so I'm 20 clear as to why I'm letting this stuff in, okay? 21 THE WITNESS: Your Honor, if I might just make 22 one final comment on what you are saying. Mmm, I 23 have been doing this work as -- basically as a paid 24 critic since 1993. And, you know, obviously I 25 wasn't frightened enough of Scientology to quit for
469 1 the last nine years. 2 What Scientology -- you know, the things that 3 are contained in this time line were not things that 4 were causing either Mr. Minton or me to want to stop 5 doing this work. 6 What caused Mr. Minton and me to stop wanting 7 to do this work is what has happened to us as a 8 result of this wrongful death case. And the perjury 9 that was about to get us both what we believed to be 10 in jail. 11 THE COURT: I understand that. And I 12 understand it clearly from what you have testified 13 to and what your affidavit said, that that is your 14 testimony. They obviously -- by they, I mean the 15 opposition in this hearing -- do not believe that. 16 And so they are exploring the truthfulness of that 17 in the way that -- that they believe. And -- 18 THE WITNESS: Well -- excuse me. I think they 19 do believe it. And I think they are trying to 20 disprove it. 21 THE COURT: Well, and I'm telling you that they 22 don't, so -- 23 BY MR. LIROT: 24 Q Let me draw your attention back to that second 25 page, the cancellation of Fair Game.
470 1 MR. FUGATE: Which page? 2 MR. LIROT: This is the second page of Exhibit 3 Number 9. 4 MR. FUGATE: Of the affidavit? 5 MR. LIROT: Not of the affidavit. It says 6 cancellation of Fair Game. 7 BY MR. LIROT: 8 Q And I guess the argument is that the policy was 9 cancelled or you said that the policy was cancelled, the 10 practice was cancelled? 11 A I think Mr. Fugate is the one that said that. 12 Q Well, your testimony was that it was cancelled or 13 disbanded or done away with and the critics just kept 14 focusing on it. Is that your testimony? 15 A Well, I -- I should say that I -- when I was in 16 Scientology, I never seen this. I didn't see it until after 17 I got out. And I began to use that policy. I was very 18 happy when I found it. And I used it beginning in 1993 when 19 I began to do this work in litigation. It clearly paints 20 Scientology in an extremely bad light. 21 Q Well, what I think it says, just that. I need to 22 ask you some questions based on your experience, and I guess 23 it says, "Cancellation of Fair Game. The practice of 24 declaring people Fair Game will cease. Fair Game may not 25 appear on any ethics order. It causes bad public
471 1 relations." I think that speaks for itself. But it says, 2 "This PL does not cancel any policy on the treatment or 3 handling of an SP." 4 What is a PL? 5 A That means policy letter. 6 Q Okay. So, "This policy letter does not cancel any 7 policy on the treatment or handling of an SP." What is an 8 SP? 9 A That is a suppressive person. In Scientology, the 10 belief is that there are people who are -- well, are 11 basically out to destroy other people or -- 12 Q SP -- 13 A You know, that there are people that are very 14 destructive. 15 Q Well, is an SP anybody that takes any stance 16 adverse to Scientology? 17 A Mmm, I -- I think that is a little bit too broad. 18 I mean, as a critic, that is how I described it. But I 19 think that is not really quite accurate. 20 THE COURT: Would you be an SP? Would you be 21 considered by the Church of Scientology an SP? 22 THE WITNESS: I think they have considered me 23 to be one. 24 THE COURT: Would Mr. Minton be considered to 25 be an SP?
472 1 THE WITNESS: I think he would have been. 2 BY MR. LIROT: 3 Q What were those policies on the treatment of 4 handling SPs that weren't cancelled? 5 A There is a whole stack of policies. I mean, where 6 do you want me to start? You know. 7 Q Well, I guess -- 8 MR. MOXON: Object, your Honor. Apparently he 9 wants to get into her interpretation of religious 10 policies now. 11 THE COURT: Overruled. This is what she 12 thought. This is all under her motive for coming 13 forward and saying what she has said. He's 14 exploring it and he's going to be allowed to explore 15 it. Overruled. 16 BY MR. LIROT: 17 Q So an SP is a suppressive person? 18 A Yes. 19 Q And I guess there is a thick packet of policies on 20 the treatment and handling of suppressive persons? 21 A Well, I'm just saying there are many, many 22 policies in Scientology that talk about -- sorry -- about 23 suppressive people. 24 Q And -- 25 A I think --
473 1 THE COURT: I'm going crazy here. I'm doing 2 the best that I can. And I'm just trying to be as 3 patient as I can, and I jump on Mr. Fugate all of 4 the time about this. You need to move into the 5 issues here. I can't do your work for you. But I 6 could roll this thing along and I could be done with 7 this witness in an hour. I could have been done 8 with their side in an hour, too. This is not a 9 discovery proceeding. 10 MR. LIROT: I understand, Judge. 11 THE COURT: I'm not going to conduct a 12 discovery proceeding. 13 MR. LIROT: I understand. 14 THE COURT: I want you to get to the issues. I 15 know what the issues are. My God, I'm sitting up 16 here, I could ask the questions myself. Get to it. 17 MR. LIROT: All right. I'll get to it. 18 THE COURT: I mean, if you think I'm going to 19 sit here and go through a stack of stuff this big 20 already in the record somewhere, I have seen them 21 before. 22 I mean, the long and short of it is this lady 23 believed what she wrote in here. She thought it was 24 accurate. She was scared. She was as scared of 25 them as she was of me, and she wanted to settle it
474 1 with them and with me and with Baird. And you need 2 to get down to why she was afraid of them, if she 3 was, what was really going on in her head. Get to 4 it. 5 MR. LIROT: All right, I'll get to it. 6 BY MR. LIROT: 7 Q Now, one question. Mr. Dandar, was he deemed an 8 SP? Would he meet the characteristics to be a suppressive 9 person? 10 A Well, you are asking me to speculate what 11 Scientology was labeling people. But I would imagine that 12 they would have considered him to be suppressive of 13 Scientology, yes. 14 Q And basically that meant all those policies and 15 treatment that they had against SPs could be used against 16 Mr. Dandar? 17 MR. FUGATE: Objection. 18 MR. MOXON: Objection. 19 A Let's qualify -- 20 THE COURT: Overruled. 21 A But let me just clarify something here. 22 BY MR. LIROT: 23 Q It's just a yes or no question. 24 THE COURT: I think it is. 25 THE WITNESS: What?
475 1 THE COURT: Well, I mean, I don't know but 2 that -- 3 THE WITNESS: Well, what I was going to say, 4 your Honor, is the treatment and handling of an SP, 5 for the most part what this is referring to is 6 procedures to bring a person out of that destructive 7 state of mind. There are some policies which are 8 strictly for the Office of Special Affairs where, 9 you know, they are supposed to investigate a person 10 for criminal background and expose their criminal 11 background or things like that. 12 But I just want to clarify -- and this is 13 certainly not the way -- the way I have ever 14 described it when I was working for people who were 15 on the other side of Scientology -- but what this 16 policy is actually talking about is the treatment or 17 handling of an SP. There is a lot of, you know, 18 tech, technology, in Scientology about the treatment 19 of an SP. 20 BY MR. LIROT: 21 Q Well, I'm not particularly worried about the tech. 22 I'm worried about the -- 23 A Right, I understand. 24 Q -- the acts -- 25 A I understand that.
476 1 Q The Judge's admonition is something I'm going to 2 bring close to heart. 3 A I'm just clarifying. 4 Q Let me bring you back to the time line. 5 A I'm just clarifying what the policies are talking 6 about. 7 Q Let's explore the policies as I think they may be 8 manifest in your time line. You have an entry here on 9 October 14 that -- "October 14, 1997, Mr. Minton received a 10 call himself from Mary Frances Newey. She threatened that 11 Scientology was prepared to attack him in a number of areas 12 if he didn't stop lending his support to the critics of 13 Scientology. She told him he would be attacked in the 14 following areas: family, children, ex-wife, ex-business 15 partners, state and federal taxes." 16 What do you know about that allegation? 17 THE COURT: I'm sorry, did you say Page 14? 18 THE WITNESS: No. No. No. 19 MR. LIROT: Page 3, October 14, 1997. 20 THE COURT: Okay. 21 A That is what he told me. 22 BY MR. LIROT: 23 Q And he told you that is what Miss Newey told him, 24 that he was going to be attacked in those areas? 25 A Yes.
477 1 Q It seems to me that -- and at that time was there 2 any perjury that anybody was concerned with? Had there been 3 any depositions given or any -- any statements made by -- 4 A No. 5 Q -- about any agreement? 6 A Not at that time. 7 Q At that point there is already some concern on 8 Mr. Minton's part in these areas that are designated. 9 Right? Family, children, ex-wife? 10 A Well -- 11 Q He believes that. Right? 12 A Well, he -- he -- he did receive a phone call. 13 But he wasn't afraid. 14 Q I'm not asking if he was afraid. 15 A I thought that is what you said. 16 Q I'm just asking if a threat was made? 17 A A threat was made, but it didn't frighten him. 18 Q Now, the next entry on the next page, I have some 19 concerns on Page 4. You have October '97, and I think it 20 talks about Mr. Minton contacting you and -- and your 21 husband at that time, Vaughn. And then the fourth line 22 down, the first sentence says, "Through anonymous telephone 23 calls, Scientology operatives had nearly succeeded in having 24 the Youngs evicted from their house and their rescued cats 25 confiscated and killed." You didn't mention a thing about
478 1 that yesterday. 2 A That is what I was talking about when I said there 3 was an anonymous -- campaign of anonymous phone calls to 4 animal control. That didn't work. Then there was -- then 5 it was switched over to anonymous phone calls to zoning, and 6 that did succeed in having our landlord tell us that we 7 would either have to get rid of all of the cats, or we would 8 be evicted. So -- so -- 9 Q You didn't say anything about the cats being 10 killed yesterday. 11 A Well, that was what I was afraid was going to 12 happen. But, I mean, you know, I'm not saying anything 13 different than what I said here. 14 Q You didn't mention that at all yesterday. 15 A I said -- 16 Q You -- 17 A I described -- 18 THE COURT: Counselor, make the argument to me, 19 not to this witness. 20 MR. LIROT: All right. 21 BY MR. LIROT: 22 Q What was the 60 Minutes expose you talk about in 23 this paragraph? 24 A I was interviewed on -- for a 60 Minutes segment 25 that aired in December of '97. It was about Scientology,
479 1 and I was interviewed as a critic of Scientology. 2 Q And did Scientology -- were they happy about that? 3 MR. FUGATE: Judge -- 4 A No. I wouldn't assume they were. It was critical 5 segment -- it was critical of Scientology. 6 BY MR. LIROT: 7 Q All right. What did they try to do -- what did 8 they do to you to try to get you not to appear on 60 9 Minutes? 10 A Well, I felt like all of this harassment was 11 because of that. 12 Q Well, what harassment? I mean, what did they do 13 to you to get you not to appear on 60 Minutes in a position 14 that was critical to Scientology? What did they do to you? 15 MR. MOXON: Objection, your Honor, vague. 16 Vague. 17 BY MR. LIROT: 18 Q What did the Church -- 19 THE COURT: Counselor, you know better than 20 that. When there is an objection, please give me 21 the opportunity to rule. 22 MR. LIROT: I'm sorry, Judge. 23 THE COURT: Overruled. 24 A Mmm, they didn't do anything that stopped the 25 show. I didn't cancel my interview, and the show aired.
480 1 BY MR. LIROT: 2 Q That is not responsive to my question. 3 A Well, you just asked me, what did they do to stop 4 the show. 5 Q What did they do to you to get you not to appear 6 on the show? Obviously you appeared on the show? 7 A Right. 8 Q What, if anything, did they do to you to try to 9 stop that from happening? 10 A Well, it was my feeling at that time this whole 11 campaign, these anonymous phone calls, were being done by 12 Scientologists in an effort to silence me. That is how I 13 felt at the time. It didn't work. 14 Q Did anybody specifically tell you that? 15 A No. 16 Q This was just a big coincidence to you? 17 A No. 18 THE COURT: This is what she believed, 19 Counselor. She just gave you the testimony you 20 need. When you get it, move on. 21 MR. LIROT: All right. 22 BY MR. LIROT: 23 Q Now, you talk on November 18, I guess, something 24 about statements made by Mr. Abelson. And I guess it talks 25 about in here, on the fifth line down, it says, "Mr. Abelson
481 1 went to state that: Association with lawbreakers such as 2 these, combined with the monetary demands that inevitably 3 accompany their involvement or similar fertile --" 4 THE COURT: I'm sorry, I don't know where you 5 are reading. 6 MR. LIROT: I'm sorry, in November 18. 7 THE WITNESS: Your Honor -- 8 MR. LIROT: I'm trying to jump ahead. 9 THE WITNESS: It is here (indicating). 10 THE COURT: Thanks. 11 BY MR. LIROT: 12 Q I think the gist of this paragraph is they are 13 accusing Mr. Minton of fostering some climate of hatred, and 14 I guess they talk about threatening him with lawsuits and 15 things like that. 16 Did you believe all that to be true? 17 A Where is the threat of lawsuits? 18 THE COURT: You know, I guess I'm just 19 confused, Counselor, and I'm going to take a break 20 because I'm frustrated. This lady has said that she 21 believed this when she wrote it. And that, 22 therefore, you have this whole document in and you 23 can refer to it anyplace, anytime you want to. 24 I just don't get it. Why are we going through 25 each one of these things to see if she's going to
482 1 admit that she already admitted unless you want her 2 to expand on something? 3 MR. LIROT: There are some things I want her to 4 expand on. 5 THE COURT: Well, okay. 6 MR. LIROT: All right. 7 BY MR. LIROT: 8 Q Let me jump ahead a little bit here. 9 THE COURT: I don't mean to push you. I 10 understand this is very serious. And I'm sorry. It 11 just seems as if you had this whole document in, and 12 that she has basically stated at the time she wrote 13 it she believed it to be accurate. And I just don't 14 know why you couldn't use it for any purpose that 15 you might want to use it. 16 So I guess I'm a touch frustrated, but I don't 17 mean to suggest you are going to annoy me enough 18 that you can't do what you want to do. It's your 19 cross-examination. 20 MR. LIROT: Judge, I don't want you to be 21 frustrated. 22 THE COURT: I'm trying not to be. I'm going to 23 lay back here and meditate and -- that is not true 24 because I'm not meditating. 25
483 1 BY MR. LIROT: 2 Q Let me fast-forward you to December 9, 1997 on 3 Page 5. 4 THE COURT: Oh, that is speed. 5 MR. MOXON: Slow forward. 6 THE COURT: That's right. We'll call that let 7 us inch along here. All right. 8 BY MR. LIROT: 9 Q At this blinding pace here -- 10 THE COURT: Right pace. 11 BY MR. LIROT: 12 Q It says the possible -- 13 THE COURT: Tell us where we are. 14 MR. LIROT: I'm on -- 15 THE COURT: You know where we are. 16 MR. LIROT: December 9, 1997, I'm on the second 17 entry, Judge -- 18 THE COURT: Okay. 19 BY MR. LIROT: 20 Q -- Church officials. It says, "The Boston Globe 21 printed an article entitled --" 22 THE COURT: You are doing realtime, so when you 23 have something you can read, you go real fast, but 24 it's very hard for her to take down. 25 MR. LIROT: I understand, Judge.
484 1 BY MR. LIROT: 2 Q "The Boston Globe printed an article entitled 3 'Gifts of cash fuel battle of principle' by Diego 4 Ribadeneira." It says, "The article stated, "Church 5 officials acknowledged that they have conducted their own 6 investigation into Minton's funding practices." 7 What was the investigation into Minton's funding 8 practices? What do you know about that? 9 A Mmm, I hardly met Mr. Minton at that point. I am 10 not real sure. 11 Q All right. Well, throughout this entire document 12 it seemed to me that a lot of the things that you talk 13 about, there are statements about dead cats on people's 14 doorsteps and picketing and fliers. And it looks to me like 15 there was almost an unrelenting attempt to place fliers 16 everyplace that Mr. Minton frequented, contact -- 17 MR. FUGATE: I'll just object to that as 18 argumentative. 19 THE COURT: Sustained. Plus it sounds like 20 testimony. 21 MR. LIROT: Well, I'll back up a little bit. 22 BY MR. LIROT: 23 Q There are several entries in here that talk about 24 the Church's investigation into Mr. Minton's financial 25 practices. Isn't that correct?
485 1 A Yes. 2 Q All right. I think -- 3 A Well, specifically work that he did in the late 4 '80s and early '90s before he retired. 5 Q All right. And I guess my question would be that 6 you have all these entries. Now, you met Mr. Minton when? 7 A Mmm -- 8 Q When does your personal relationship with him 9 start to the point we can figure out how close you are to 10 these facts? Because I take it before you became 11 intensively involved with Mr. Minton most of this is just 12 based on what he provided to you? 13 A Or -- 14 MR. FUGATE: Those are multiple questions 15 there. I object. 16 THE COURT: Sustained. 17 BY MR. LIROT: 18 Q What date did you become involved with Mr. Minton? 19 A Mmm, I would say by the late spring of '98, I had 20 more of the direct knowledge. 21 Q And throughout this period of time, was -- you 22 know, from that time to the end of this time line, was it 23 your belief that Mr. Minton had private investigators 24 following him almost all of the time that had some 25 relationship with the Church of Scientology?
486 1 A Yes. 2 Q I think -- 3 A I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I missed the time frame 4 you're talking about. 5 Q From the time line, the span of this time line. 6 A Mmm, well -- 7 MR. LIEBERMAN: That wasn't the question. 8 A -- probably not the span of the time line. But 9 for a good part of it. 10 BY MR. LIROT: 11 Q So were you followed by private investigators? 12 A I felt that I was. 13 Q Do you have any specific information or -- or were 14 there any overt acts that gave you an indication to believe 15 you were being followed? 16 A Well, for example, when I worked at the LMT, one 17 night I drove to my house and as I pulled my car into the 18 garage a process server swooped into my driveway and blocked 19 my car and served me papers, leading me to feel that he had 20 been sitting there waiting for me to come home. You know, 21 stuff like that. 22 Q Let me draw your attention to Page 7, the entry 23 next to last, January 23rd, 1998. It says, "Scientology 24 private investigators and OSA operatives launched a campaign 25 to harass and intimidate Mr. Minton's friends and former
487 1 business associates not only in the United States but also 2 in England, Turkey, Brazil, Nigeria, Switzerland, South 3 Africa and Hong Kong. This campaign would continue over the 4 next three years and would result in further isolating 5 Mr. Minton from his friends and associates." 6 How did that work? What led you to put that entry 7 in there? 8 A There was a private investigator who I believe was 9 based in London who was contacting Mr. Minton's friends and 10 business -- former business associates and interviewing them 11 for information about Mr. Minton, you know. I had reason to 12 believe -- he had reason to believe and told me -- that 13 people had been contacted in those different countries as 14 part of this investigation of Mr. Minton. 15 Q And what led you to put that in there? 16 A Well, what do you mean? 17 Q I mean, how extensive was this investigation? How 18 many -- how many private investigators are we talking about 19 here? 20 A We didn't know. We weren't sure. But it seemed 21 to be a team of them. 22 Q And they contacted all of Mr. Minton's business 23 associates? 24 A Well, a number of them. 25 Q And they contacted his wife -- it appears to be
488 1 all over the world, followed his wife everywhere she went, 2 Spain, England? 3 A Mmm, yeah. He felt that she was being followed. 4 She was -- she was in England at one point and was -- and a 5 letter was hand-delivered to her to the house where she was 6 staying. 7 Q So it was more than a feeling. There was clear 8 indication that they were following his family all over the 9 world; they're talking to his business partners all over the 10 world. Isn't that all true? 11 A Oh, I didn't -- 12 MR. MOXON: Objection, your Honor. I assume 13 for all of these questions that everything that 14 doesn't include personal knowledge, it's all 15 speculation, her belief? Obviously every question 16 calls for hearsay and speculation and -- 17 THE COURT: It has to do with her belief, that 18 is right. And really hers and Mr. Minton's, if, in 19 fact, they discussed it and she knows this is one of 20 the things that concerned him. 21 MR. MOXON: I object then on hearsay as to what 22 she believes his belief is. 23 THE COURT: Well, since her belief is what the 24 issue here is as far as what her state of mind was 25 when she made this statement -- these statements,
489 1 that is overruled. 2 A To answer your question, I don't -- I didn't mean 3 to imply that it was just a feeling. We were -- Mr. Minton 4 was very angry about it and so was I. It certainly didn't 5 frighten us. It angered us. 6 BY MR. LIROT: 7 Q All right. Let me draw your attention to Page 8 8 and the entry on the -- the last entry on that page. I'm 9 going to draw your attention four lines from the bottom -- 10 five lines. I guess you typed this statement. It says, "By 11 now Scientology was publishing outrageous lies about 12 Mr. Minton in an attempt to goad him into filing suit 13 against them." 14 THE COURT: It says "apparently," right? 15 MR. LIROT: Yes, that is correct, Judge. 16 BY MR. LIROT: 17 Q "By now Scientology was publishing outrageous lies 18 about Mr. Minton, apparently in an attempt to goad him into 19 filing suit against them. However, several experienced 20 attorneys advised Mr. Minton not to sue as Scientology would 21 use the litigation to further harass him and exhaust his 22 financial resources, ultimately forcing him to cease his 23 outspoken criticism." 24 Is that what happened here? Is it -- is it -- 25 A What?
490 1 Q -- is Mr. Minton -- are you and Mr. Minton trying 2 to get this resolved so that he doesn't lose his money? 3 A No. In fact -- in fact, I would have to say that 4 at every -- every time -- each one of these entries 5 represents an incident or an experience that -- that had the 6 absolute opposite effect on us from -- from getting us to 7 want to stop this work. 8 Every time something happened it made us -- and 9 Mr. Minton for sure -- angrier and angrier, and he -- and he 10 became absolutely -- he absolutely wanted more and more and 11 more to go after Scientology because -- as a result of all 12 of the things that I'm talking about in here. 13 You know, it did not have the effect of 14 frightening him, and it didn't have the effect of 15 frightening me, and it is not how come we are now recanting 16 our perjury. 17 Q I understand that is your statement. But let me 18 draw your attention to Page 10. Your entry for May and July 19 of 1998. The lower half of the page. It says, "From May to 20 July 1998 Mr. Minton had a series of three meetings 21 totalling 15 hours with two of the top leaders of 22 Scientology. He hoped to enter into a dialogue about ending 23 Scientology's criminal conduct, including fraud, practicing 24 medicine without a license, child abuse and human rights 25 violations.
491 1 "He met with Mike Rinder, the head of OSA 2 International, and Marty Rathbun, head of the Religious 3 Technology Center and second in command of Scientology under 4 its dictator, David Miscavige. Unfortunately, the 5 Scientologists had no interest in discussing their criminal 6 conduct. Their interest was solely to convince Mr. Minton 7 to stop providing funds to Scientology critics. They told 8 Mr. Minton point-blank that if he would quit giving 9 financial support to critics, Scientology would stop 10 harassing and intimidating Mr. Minton and his friends and 11 family. 12 "At the end of the third meeting, Mr. Minton made 13 it clear he would not stop his financial support until 14 Scientology ceased destroying peoples' lives through fraud 15 and criminal abuse. In response, the Scientologists 16 intensified their campaign against him." 17 Were you in any of those meetings with Mr. Minton? 18 A Yes, I was at the first one. 19 Q All right. Tell me about that meeting. Where did 20 it take place? 21 A In Los Angeles. At -- at a building called the 22 Manor, where the Celebrity Center is. 23 Q I take it this happened between May and July of 24 '98. Was this in May of 1998? 25 A Mmm, the one I went to was in May. Yeah.
492 1 Q All right. Who set up the meeting? 2 A Mmm, Mr. Minton. 3 Q All right. And how did he get in touch with the 4 people that attended the meeting? 5 A Mmm, I think he called Mr. Rinder, if I'm not 6 mistaken. I don't remember exactly. 7 Q What was -- what was his desire in calling these 8 meetings? 9 A Mmm -- 10 THE COURT: Go ahead. 11 THE WITNESS: Me? 12 THE COURT: No, I would wonder why we wouldn't 13 be talking about the meetings involved in this case, 14 though, rather than meetings in 1998. She already 15 indicated this is what she -- I mean -- I mean, what 16 is it we're trying to gain out of this, this 17 questioning regarding this? 18 MR. LIROT: Well, Judge, I think there is a 19 pattern here that has developed. 20 THE COURT: All right. 21 THE WITNESS: Oh, do you think that those 22 meetings were an attempt to settle? That is not 23 true. Mr. Minton kind of considered himself at that 24 time to be a spokesman for the critic community. 25 And he thought that it would be useful to sit down
493 1 with the leaders of the Scientology and basically 2 communicate a list of the critics' grievances and 3 try to have dialogue with them about these things. 4 It certainly wasn't anything to do with -- I 5 mean, absolutely -- that is not the reason these 6 meetings happened was for any kind of attempt on 7 Mr. Minton's part to settle with Scientology. In 8 fact -- 9 THE COURT: You have responded. 10 THE WITNESS: Okay. 11 BY MR. LIROT: 12 Q Let me draw your attention to August 24, 1998, on 13 Page 13. And the last full paragraph on Page 13. It says, 14 "In one of the first indications that Scientology -- that 15 Scientology was investigating Mr. Minton's work in Nigeria, 16 the flier stated: 'Minton and Smith did business in 17 Nigeria. Minton made a lot of his money, he says, by 18 helping the country's dictatorial leaderships to 19 successfully default on multi-million dollar loans. 20 Everyone with the inside knowledge benefited but as events 21 and statistics showed, the people suffered. While millions 22 were siphoned off in 'commissions' and lenders had to write 23 off huge losses, the leaders of the country completely 24 ignored the human suffering and misery of its citizens. Is 25 this how a man of principal acts?"
494 1 What indications did Mr. Minton relate to you 2 about the Church checking into any of his financial 3 dealings? 4 A Mmm, well, I think I just said before that there 5 was an investigation in which, you know, people that he 6 worked with were interviewed -- or contacted, you know, 7 things like that. 8 Q Well, on Page 16 you talk about on September 28, 9 1998, about Mr. Franks' meeting with Mr. Smith. Who is 10 Mr. Smith? 11 A He was one of Mr. Minton's former partners. 12 THE COURT: You have gone ahead of me now. 13 Page 16 is what? 14 MR. LIROT: Page 16 on the top, Judge. 15 THE COURT: All right. Thank you. 16 BY MR. LIROT: 17 Q September 28, 1998. It says, "Peter Franks, a 18 British private investigator hired by Scientology, spread 19 the word to many of Therese Minton's friends in England and 20 to Mr. Minton's former business partner, Jeff Schmidt, 21 that --" 22 A It is Therese. 23 Q Therese, I'm sorry "-- that Therese, the Mintons' 24 two daughters, and Mr. Schmidt were going to be followed in 25 order to bring pressure on Mr. Minton to stop his policies
495 1 concerning Scientology." 2 What happened to make you put that statement in 3 there? 4 A Well, I think it speaks for itself. It certainly 5 infuriated Mr. Minton and Therese. And it -- it had the 6 opposite effect on Mr. Minton, I can assure you. 7 Q It says in the next paragraph that Mr. Schmidt's 8 office had been picketed and leafletted at this point for 9 several weeks. How many locations were picketed? This time 10 line, that you can recall? If you could just give me a 11 list, because obviously the Judge will not be patient with 12 me asking about every one of them. 13 A You mean by us or by Scientology? 14 Q By Scientology. 15 A Oh. Well, they were kind of picketing in 16 retaliation of our picketing, as far as I could tell. Every 17 time Mr. Minton would picket, then they would picket. You 18 know, it was like Judge Penick called it, picket -- 19 THE COURT: What -- 20 A I think Judge Penick called it picket chicken. 21 BY MR. LIROT: 22 Q Did you picket in England? 23 THE COURT: I might call it counterproductive 24 to both sides. 25 THE WITNESS: I think I would agree with you on
496 1 that, your Honor. I never did like that 2 picketing -- 3 THE COURT: I don't think it speaks well for 4 anybody, to tell you the truth. 5 THE WITNESS: Neither do I. 6 BY MR. LIROT: 7 Q Did you -- did you ever picket in England? Did 8 Mr. Minton ever picket in England? 9 A No, not in England. This is Jeff Schmidt's house 10 in New Hampshire. 11 Q So all of the pickets and leaflets and fliers and 12 all of the rest of that was all isolated to the United 13 States? 14 A Mmm, I think there was some fliers handed out when 15 we were in Germany. 16 Q Well, it appears here that there were some times 17 where that Mr. Minton's -- I guess the farmhouse would be 18 picketed or that -- 19 A Yes. 20 Q -- you would be harassed for days on end? 21 THE COURT: Are you trying to get the lady to 22 say one of the things she wanted to do was get 23 Scientology off her back? I think she would say 24 that. 25 MR. LIROT: Well, Judge --
497 1 THE COURT: If that is what your point is. So 2 you are able to lead here. You can lead, suggest 3 the answers and see if you can get it. If you 4 can't, you can move right on. 5 MR. LIROT: Judge, I'm really -- 6 THE COURT: I'm sorry, you know, go ahead. 7 BY MR. LIROT: 8 Q I want to draw your attention to the second 9 paragraph of September 28, 1998. It says, "Mr. Schmidt's 10 office had been picketed and leafletted at this point for 11 several weeks, as had his home where his wife and children 12 were there. Franks threatened to go after Mr. Schmidt's 13 clients, one of which was the Nigerian government. 14 "Franks said they would arrange picketing of the 15 Nigerian delegation to the International Monetary Fund 16 meeting in Washington, D.C. which was set for October 4 17 through 8 of next month. Franks promised Mr. Schmidt would 18 be caught in a web of IRS tax investigation of Mr. Minton 19 and in his own problems with the England Revenue Service, 20 England's equivalent of the IRS." 21 THE COURT: I'm sorry, I missed what you were 22 reading from. I didn't want to interrupt you. Tell 23 me the page. 24 MR. LIROT: Page 16, second paragraph under the 25 September 28, 1998 heading.
498 1 THE COURT: Okay. 2 BY MR. LIROT: 3 Q The Church oftentimes would threaten Mr. Minton 4 with IRS investigations. Is that correct? 5 A Mmm, well, the -- what was happening was more 6 like -- 7 THE COURT: Now, that needs to be a yes or no, 8 ma'am. 9 THE WITNESS: Oh, sorry. 10 A No. But I can explain if you want me to. 11 BY MR. LIROT: 12 Q Well, it seems the time line statement seems a 13 little different than that answer. You can explain. 14 A Well, this -- this guy Franks was really nasty, 15 and he was going around threatening all kinds of things. 16 And it just infuriated Mr. Minton. 17 Q What kind of things was he threatening? 18 A Well, like it says here. You know, what you just 19 read. 20 Q IRS tax investigation? 21 A Oh, that. Mmm, you know, this thing about he was 22 going to go after Mr. Schmidt's clients, that they were 23 going to -- you know, go after the Nigerian government to 24 stop his work with them. I mean -- 25 THE COURT: What was his work with the Nigerian
499 1 government? 2 THE WITNESS: Mr. Schmidt? 3 THE COURT: No, Mr. Minton. 4 THE WITNESS: Oh, well, Mr. Minton is retired. 5 But -- and this stuff that he's talking about here 6 for the September 28 thing that I wrote had to do 7 with Mr. Schmidt's work. 8 THE COURT: I see. Okay. 9 THE WITNESS: And, you know, it's some sort of 10 financial work. I don't know exactly. 11 BY MR. LIROT: 12 Q Well, wasn't there a debate at some point in time 13 about Mr. Minton's involvement with the Nigerian government? 14 A Yeah. That -- I don't know where that entry is. 15 Oh, I think it was -- 16 Q It's on Page. 30, it looks like June 11, 2000 on 17 Page 30? 18 A Yes, it was in the summer of 2000. Yes, there 19 was. There was a big -- it wasn't -- it wasn't exactly a 20 debate. It was -- it was -- Mmm, it was an opportunity for 21 Mr. Minton -- he was invited to address a number of people 22 at Howard University about the whole Nigeria thing because 23 this big report had come out accusing Mr. Minton of a lot 24 of -- well, criminal stuff, basically that wasn't true, and 25 he went to -- and talked with all these people and gave them
500 1 all kinds of documents and explained the work and all that 2 kind of stuff. 3 Q But they were threatening Mr. Minton about 4 criminal transactions involving international monetary 5 exchanges and things like that? 6 A No, they weren't threatening. They were accusing 7 it. They were saying it. They weren't threatening. 8 Q They were accusing him and threatening him to take 9 action, right? 10 A No. They were taking action. I mean, it wasn't 11 threats. It was happening. 12 THE COURT: Who is they there? Who is the 13 they? 14 THE WITNESS: Well, people that were working 15 for Scientology is what we thought. 16 THE COURT: Okay. 17 BY MR. LIROT: 18 Q Let me draw your attention to Page 32, the 19 June 23rd -- 20 THE COURT: What action were they taking about 21 this? 22 THE WITNESS: Well -- 23 THE COURT: Excuse me, Counsel, just for a 24 second. 25 THE WITNESS: First of all, they had -- I mean,
501 1 we have reason to believe that it was Scientology, 2 so I'll just put it in those terms. But, you know, 3 there had been this whole investigation that had 4 been going on about Mr. Minton, like we talked 5 about, you know, where people were interviewed and 6 stuff like that. And then this whole big report was 7 put together by this guy John Fashanu in which 8 Mr. Minton was implicated in things that -- criminal 9 things that the dictator of Nigeria, Abacha, had 10 done. But Mr. Minton's work was over before Abacha 11 ever came to power. So Mr. Minton was trying to set 12 the record straight on all this stuff when he went 13 to Howard University. 14 THE COURT: What were the allegations, I guess 15 I'm saying? What illegal things did they think he 16 had done? 17 THE WITNESS: They were saying he was money 18 laundering. And other things. But -- 19 THE COURT: Right. 20 BY MR. LIROT: 21 Q Well, and that was described in what was known as 22 the fashion report, isn't that correct? 23 A Right. 24 Q What was the Fashanu report? 25 A It was -- well, first of all, I have never seen
502 1 it. But it's been described in the newspaper articles. 2 Like I just said, John Fashanu said that -- 3 THE COURT: Can you spell that for me, Fashanu? 4 A Yes. It is F-A-S-H -- I think it is 5 F-A-S-H-A-N-U, Fashanu. He's a Nigerian soccer player, sort 6 of a celebrity sports figure in England. 7 BY MR. LIROT: 8 Q And he's a Scientologist, too, right? 9 A Not that I know of. 10 THE COURT: This Fashanu report, I'm sorry, 11 maybe I misunderstood, did you believe the Church of 12 Scientology was behind that report? 13 THE WITNESS: Yes. 14 THE COURT: And in that report that you thought 15 somehow the Church of Scientology had something to 16 do with, they accused Mr. Minton of racketeering 17 using illegal gains to launder it through legitimate 18 business? Is that sort of what they were accusing 19 him of? 20 THE WITNESS: Yes. They were accusing him 21 basically of -- you know, I might not get this 22 exactly right but basically working with this 23 dictator to launder funds out of Nigeria. 24 THE COURT: Money laundering in whatever form 25 it is, being an illegal activity.
503 1 THE WITNESS: Right. 2 THE COURT: Because they were not saying this 3 was legal; they were saying this was illegal money 4 laundering? 5 THE WITNESS: Right. 6 THE COURT: Okay. 7 THE WITNESS: And, of course, Mr. Minton said 8 that it was totally not true. And, you know, this 9 was particularly infuriating to Mr. Minton because 10 of the fact that he's very proud of the work he did. 11 And he feels very strongly to this day, I'm sure 12 he'll tell you this, too, that the work he did was 13 really good for the country. And again as I said, 14 he wasn't even doing any work by the time Abacha 15 came to power. 16 So, you know, this really made him mad that 17 this was being done. You know, it was almost as if 18 the thing that he was most proud of was being hit, 19 really made him mad. 20 BY MR. LIROT: 21 Q They sent out a bunch of fliers in Germany 22 accusing Mr. Minton of being a money launderer? 23 THE COURT: What time did we start this 24 morning? I have a contract with my court reporter. 25 MR. WEINBERG: 9:30.
504 1 THE COURT: We'll take a little break because 2 she needs it. We'll be in recession for 15 minutes. 3 (WHEREUPON, a recess was taken.) 4 THE COURT: I'll try to break for lunch about 5 12:30. Continue on. 6 MR. LIROT: Thank you, Judge. 7 BY MR. LIROT: 8 Q Ms. Brooks -- 9 THE COURT: By the way, Counselor, I notice -- 10 I think what the rules are for a witness on the 11 stand, I'm being gracious here in allowing her to 12 confer with you. I don't think she has that right. 13 I don't want to exclude her overnight or for a long 14 break, but during the breaks you should not be 15 talking with her. 16 MR. FUGATE: Judge, may we approach, Mr. Lirot 17 and I, on a separate issue? 18 THE COURT: Yes. 19 (Bench conference had off the record.) 20 THE COURT: All right, continue on, please. 21 BY MR. LIROT: 22 Q Ms. Brooks, I was asking you some questions about 23 contact between Church investigators or -- and I guess in 24 here you refer to some of these people as OSA operatives. 25 What is an OSA operative?
505 1 A Well, that is my word for anybody who was involved 2 in any of these investigations. 3 Q All right. And Mr. Schmidt was Mr. Minton's 4 business partner? 5 A His former partner. Yes. 6 Q And I guess did his wife leave him over all of the 7 harassment that Scientologists or somebody related to 8 Scientology gave him? 9 A Who? 10 Q Mr. Schmidt's wife? 11 A Not that I know of. 12 Q Did Mr. Schmidt ultimately have to pay some taxes 13 that he didn't pay as a result of harassment or anything 14 that Scientology did to him? 15 MR. FUGATE: I'll object -- 16 THE COURT: Counselor -- 17 MR. FUGATE: -- speculation. 18 THE COURT: I don't think you can assume he 19 paid taxes because of harassment. He may have had 20 to pay taxes because he owed it. 21 BY MR. LIROT: 22 Q Did they find out Mr. Schmidt owed a lot of tax? 23 Do you know if Mr. Schmidt had to make tax payments for 24 taxes he didn't make prior? 25 A I'm not aware of that.
506 1 Q Were you aware that I guess Mr. Minton's daughter 2 had flown -- how old are his daughters? 3 A Mmm, at this point they are 14 and 16. 4 Q Obviously they were in their early teens or I 5 guess 11, 12, a couple years ago? 6 A You can do the math. 7 Q Were you aware that Mr. Minton's daughters were 8 followed at some point when they went to have a visit on 9 Long Island? 10 A I believe it's in the time line, isn't it? 11 THE COURT: The question was, are you aware of 12 that, ma'am? 13 THE WITNESS: I believe one of his daughters 14 was. Or at least he thought she was. 15 BY MR. LIROT: 16 Q Do you have any reason to believe that that is not 17 true? 18 A Mmm -- 19 Q You don't know? 20 A You know, at this point I'm sort of out of the 21 business. So whether it's true or not, I don't really know. 22 Q All right. 23 THE COURT: But you believed it at the time you 24 wrote the time line? 25 THE WITNESS: Yes. Well, I believe it is in
507 1 the time line. And -- and -- you know, yeah. 2 BY MR. LIROT: 3 Q All right. I think I'm going to -- did Mr. Minton 4 have to give up a partnership or an interest in an 5 automobile dealership because his partners were upset at all 6 of the -- I guess the attention he was getting from 7 Scientology? 8 A No. They were upset about -- 9 MR. FUGATE: Judge, could we hold on for a 10 second. I'm having trouble hearing. I think they 11 may be breaking or something. 12 THE COURT: I think maybe the jurors -- don't 13 say anything, Mr. Bailiff. I can't stand it when 14 the judge sends somebody out to quiet a crowd. 15 It -- 16 MR. FUGATE: I didn't mean for that to happen. 17 THE COURT: But I can't stand it for judges 18 sending somebody out to say, "Keep it down." 19 MR. FUGATE: I have been there before. 20 THE COURT: I have, too. My secretary and I 21 might be frivolous about something and the judges 22 would come out and tell me to be quiet. 23 MR. FUGATE: I can hear. 24 THE COURT: Madam court reporter, repeat that 25 question if you would.
508 1 THE REPORTER: "Question: All right. I think 2 I'm going to -- did Mr. Minton have to give up a 3 partnership or an interest in an automobile 4 dealership because his partners were upset at all of 5 the -- I guess the attention he was getting from 6 Scientology?" 7 A I believe they were upset because they got 8 picketed, if I recall correctly. And they did ask him to 9 let them buy him out. And he did let them buy him out. 10 BY MR. LIROT: 11