IN THE CIRCUIT COURT FOR PINELLAS COUNTY, FLORIDA
CASE NO. 00-5682-CI-11
DELL LIEBREICH, as Personal
Representative of the ESTATE OF
LISA McPHERSON,
Plaintiff,
vs. VOLUME 9
CHURCH OF SCIENTOLOGY FLAG
SERVICE ORGANIZATION, JANIS
JOHNSON, ALAIN KARTUZINSKI
and DAVID HOUGHTON, D.D.S.,
Defendants.
_______________________________________/
PROCEEDINGS: Defendants' Omnibus Motion for
Terminating Sanctions and Other Relief
DATE: May 14, 2002. Afternoon Session
PLACE: Courtroom B, Judicial Building
St. Petersburg, Florida
BEFORE: Honorable Susan F. Schaeffer
Circuit Judge
REPORTED BY: Debra S. Turner
Deputy Official Court Reporter
Sixth Judicial Circuit of Florida
_________________________________________________
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
TAMPA AIRPORT MARRIOTT HOTEL (813) 224-9500
ST. PETERSBURG - CLEARWATER (727) 821-3320
Volume 9, Page 1121
1
APPEARANCES:
2
MR. KENNAN G. DANDAR
3 DANDAR & DANDAR
5340 West Kennedy Blvd., Suite 201
4 Tampa, FL 33602
Attorney for Plaintiff
5
6 MR. LUKE CHARLES LIROT
LUKE CHARLES LIROT, PA
7 112 N East Street, Street, Suite B
Tampa, FL 33602-4108
8 Attorney for Plaintiff
9
MR. KENDRICK MOXON
10 MOXON & KOBRIN
1100 Cleveland Street, Suite 900
11 Clearwater, FL 33755
Attorney for Church of Scientology Flag Service Organization
12
13 MR. LEE FUGATE and
MR. MORRIS WEINBERG, JR. and
14 ZUCKERMAN, SPAEDER
101 E. Kennedy Blvd, Suite 1200
15 Tampa, FL 33602-5147
Attorneys for Church of Scientology Flag Service
16 Organization
17
MR. ERIC M. LIEBERMAN
18 RABINOWITZ, BOUDIN, STANDARD
740 Broadway at Astor Place
19 New York, NY 10003-9518
Attorney for Church of Scientology Flag Service Organization
20
21 MR. BRUCE HOWIE
5720 Central Avenue
22 St. Petersburg, Florida.
Counsel for Robert Minton
23
24
25
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
Volume 9, Page 1122
1 APPEARANCES: (Continued)
2 MR. THOMAS H. MCGOWAN
MCGOWAN & SUAREZ, LLP
3 150 2nd Avenue North, Suite 870
St. Petersburg, FL 33701-3381
4 Attorney for Stacy Brooks
5
ALSO PRESENT:
6
Ms. Donna West
7 Mr. Rick Spector
Mr. Allan Cartwright
8 Ms. Lara Cartwright
Ms. Sarah Heller
9 Mr. Ben Shaw
Ms. Joyce Earl
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
Volume 9, Page 1123
1 (The afternoon session began at 1:33 p.m.
2 Ms. Stacy Brooks is still the witness.)
3 THE COURT: We don't have Mr. Fugate at the
4 moment, so we'll wait for him.
5 (Mr. Fugate entered the courtroom.)
6 MR. FUGATE: Thank you very much, your
7 Honor.
8 THE COURT: You're welcome.
9 I had a chance just recently to read the
10 filing this morning from the Church, memorandum in
11 further support of omnibus motion for terminating
12 sanctions and other relief.
13 Did the plaintiffs get a copy of this?
14 MR. LIROT: Yes, we did, your Honor.
15 THE COURT: I think that you're on notice
16 that one of the bases upon which they plan to ask me
17 to dismiss this case at the conclusion of this hearing
18 is that -- their belief that there was no foundation
19 to file the fifth amended complaint.
20 MR. LIROT: That certainly appears from the
21 face of that, although they are not specific. There's
22 a lot of case law, but there's certainly no specific
23 allegation in that -- in that memorandum.
24 THE COURT: Well, it's specific enough for
25 me, that I know that what I'm going to be asked to do
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
Volume 9, Page 1124
1 is to dismiss this, stating that, number one, there
2 was no good-faith basis to file the complaint that is
3 in existence in this case, which would be the last
4 complaint --
5 MR. LIEBERMAN: Correct.
6 THE COURT: -- which is the fifth amended
7 complaint.
8 MR. LIEBERMAN: Yes.
9 THE COURT: And I think you're on notice. I
10 don't think we're that far into the hearing. And I'll
11 be candid with you all, I have some serious questions
12 about this. I raised this --
13 MR. LIROT: Yes.
14 THE COURT: -- yesterday.
15 MR. LIROT: Yes.
16 THE COURT: I said at some point in time
17 we've got to know this. We just can't go to trial
18 wondering if there's any basis to support this
19 complaint.
20 And I think now they've made it an issue in
21 this hearing, as I said. If we were three-quarters of
22 the way through, I would gasp and say, "Oh, dear lord,
23 we're going to have to do it again." But I don't
24 think we do, and I think this would be evidentiary in
25 nature.
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
Volume 9, Page 1125
1 And again, I'm not requiring you necessarily
2 to put on your entire case.
3 MR. LIROT: Right.
4 THE COURT: But I think that this fairly
5 puts this at issue, which is that this complaint --
6 and I'm talking now about the complaint that I didn't
7 exactly understand how it was filed, that being that
8 the Church allowed this lady to die intentionally.
9 MR. LIROT: Yes.
10 THE COURT: That's what it says.
11 MR. LIROT: I'm aware -- I'm aware of the
12 allegations, your Honor.
13 THE COURT: Yes. And so I would suspect
14 that in the process of your -- and -- and due to that,
15 if there's anybody that's been called in the previous
16 hearing -- you know, the only people called up there
17 were Mr. Dandar and Ms. Liebreich and Mr. Minton --
18 MR. LIROT: That is correct, Judge.
19 THE COURT: -- that's been called. So if
20 this witness is on the stand and you have anything
21 that you want to ask of her to support this aspect of
22 this -- this motion, you may feel free to expand. If
23 there's nothing that you want to ask her about this,
24 that's fine.
25 MR. LIROT: I -- actually, Judge, I was
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
Volume 9, Page 1126
1 going to incorporate that into some of my questions
2 this afternoon.
3 THE COURT: Good.
4 MR. FUGATE: May we approach the bench, your
5 Honor?
6 THE COURT: Yes.
7 Do you want this on the record?
8 MR. FUGATE: No.
9 (An off-the-record bench conference was held
10 between Mr. Fugate and Mr. Lirot.)
11 (Mr. Howie entered the courtroom.)
12 THE COURT: Ms. Brooks, I know you were
13 probably hopeful that you would be done today, and you
14 may be. I doubt that you had a chance to read all
15 those affidavits at lunch.
16 THE WITNESS: I didn't.
17 THE COURT: Okay. So in any event, if
18 there's to be some inquiry made about those
19 affidavits, it will have to be made --
20 THE WITNESS: Thursday.
21 THE COURT: -- Thursday. I've explained to
22 counsel that I would assume this -- this -- it doesn't
23 matter really what it is. It's an allegation that the
24 complaint should be dismissed because there's no
25 good-faith basis to file it. And consequently, you --
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
Volume 9, Page 1127
1 they may have some questions of you regarding that
2 they haven't asked now that this has been squarely put
3 at issue, not lies as much as was there a good-faith
4 basis.
5 THE WITNESS: All right. I understand that.
6 THE COURT: So if they expand their inquiry,
7 you end up being with us more than you thought you
8 were going to be, why, that's the reason. I've
9 allowed that. Otherwise, they would have to bring you
10 back, so -- okay?
11 THE WITNESS: Okay.
12 THE COURT: You may continue.
13 So I'm assuming this is now at issue in this
14 hearing.
15 MR. FUGATE: Yes.
16 THE COURT: And that if there's any evidence
17 that anybody wants to put on, they need to put it on.
18 MR. LIEBERMAN: Yes.
19 MR. LIROT: Acknowledged, Judge.
20 THE COURT: Good.
21 THE WITNESS: Your Honor, am I allowed to
22 know what that is?
23 THE COURT: Yes.
24 THE WITNESS: I mean, what it says.
25 THE COURT: It says:
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
Volume 9, Page 1128
1 "Under Florida law, the complaint is
2 improper, not only where the attorney knows
3 factual allegations to be false, but also that
4 the plaintiff lacks evidence to support his
5 factual allegation and where the complaint is
6 based on speculation and surmise."
7 And so that is, in a nutshell -- this goes
8 on for eight -- well, not really --
9 MR. LIEBERMAN: I kept it down to seven
10 pages.
11 THE COURT: Seven. Yes, you did, Counsel.
12 -- seven pages and citations, but they're
13 really sort of putting us on notice that they're not
14 just talking about allegations being false, but that
15 if a complaint is filed because it's a "maybe" or
16 "we're guessing," that they're going to make -- I
17 don't know if they're right or not -- they're going to
18 make a legal argument that I should dismiss the
19 complaint because it was either lies or there was no
20 good-faith basis or it was based on conjecture.
21 THE WITNESS: I see. Okay.
22 THE COURT: And as I said, you were a
23 consultant at this stage, so there may be some
24 matters --
25 THE WITNESS: Yes.
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
Volume 9, Page 1129
1 THE COURT: -- that they want to raise with
2 you, which we'll allow them to do.
3 THE WITNESS: All right.
4 MR. LIROT: Very good. Thank you, Judge.
5 THE COURT: You're welcome to read this, if
6 they want to give you a copy of it. But that's it in
7 a nutshell.
8 THE WITNESS: All right. Thank you, your
9 Honor.
10 THE COURT: If counsel wants to give you
11 more --
12 CROSS-EXAMINATION OF STACY BROOKS, CONTINUED
13 BY MR. LIROT:
14 Q Ms. Brooks, you were going through your
15 affidavit, the one that you signed on April 29th, and I
16 think I had gotten to paragraph 9. And I asked you to read
17 that paragraph. Would you like to refresh your memory and
18 read it over again?
19 A I just did.
20 Q Just read it, all right.
21 THE COURT: And I would assume by that
22 motion that that motion means that they're going to
23 ask that this be dismissed with prejudice.
24 MR. LIEBERMAN: That's correct, your Honor.
25 THE COURT: In other words, they're going to
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
Volume 9, Page 1130
1 ask that it be dismissed and not be allowed to be
2 amended.
3 MR. LIEBERMAN: Yes.
4 THE COURT: Which is another issue, but
5 that's --
6 MR. LIEBERMAN: Yes.
7 THE COURT: -- as I was reading that, I
8 didn't see that, but I just made that assumption,
9 which I'm sure you --
10 MR. LIROT: I assumed the same from the
11 pleading, Judge.
12 THE COURT: Okay.
13 BY MR. LIROT:
14 Q Now, Ms. Brooks, paragraph 9, I think you had
15 testified that in mid-1998 you were a resident of
16 Washington state. You were living in Seattle?
17 A Yes.
18 Q Okay. And at that point, were you still married
19 to Mr. Young?
20 A Yes.
21 Q And I think your testimony was that you were
22 working on three other cases involving the Church of
23 Scientology?
24 A I don't remember if your question concerned
25 mid-1998 or -- I don't remember what your question was
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
Volume 9, Page 1131
1 earlier.
2 Q I was actually trying to find out what different
3 activities you were involved with in mid-1998, and that
4 might be the easiest way to answer that. What were you
5 doing in mid-1998?
6 A I was on the board of FACTNet with Mr. Minton.
7 Q Okay.
8 A The FACTNet lawsuit was still ongoing. As I
9 recall, I was working with Mr. Leiphold on that case, as
10 well as the Wollersheim case was also still ongoing, and
11 the wrongful death case.
12 Q Okay. You weren't doing anything with Mr. Dandar
13 in '98, though, were you?
14 A Yes.
15 Q All right. What -- what participation in the
16 wrongful death case did you have in 1998?
17 A As I recall, in the fall -- and actually, I
18 believe this is in my affidavit -- Mr. Prince -- Mr. Minton
19 and I had Mr. Prince begin working with Mr. Dandar at that
20 time. And I was working directly with Mr. Prince on it, as
21 well as being in touch with Mr. Dandar directly.
22 Q Well, I think you've got that in paragraph 11,
23 and I'm talking about mid-1998, focusing specifically on
24 paragraph 9. And you specifically say you became
25 Mr. Minton's eyes and ears in Mr. Dandar's office.
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
Volume 9, Page 1132
1 A Well, I think -- I think if you read it
2 correctly, it says, "By mid-1998, Mr. Minton had begun to
3 pay me to assist him in his anti-Scientology activities."
4 THE COURT: Slow down, please.
5 THE WITNESS: Sorry.
6 Did you get that?
7 THE REPORTER: (Nodded affirmatively.)
8 A And then the next sentence is, "With regard to my
9 work on the wrongful death case, once I began working for
10 Mr. Minton, I became his eyes and ears."
11 I believe that it was in the fall -- I don't -- I
12 believe in the summer -- which, when I say mid-1998, I mean
13 mid to late summer. I believe I did have some contact with
14 Mr. Dandar towards the late summer, but more in the fall.
15 BY MR. LIROT:
16 Q Okay. Well, this says mid-98, and I guess my
17 question would be, in mid-98, how many times had you been
18 in Mr. Dandar's office?
19 A I -- I don't recall when the first time was that
20 I was actually in his office. I don't recall. It may have
21 been later than mid-1998. But again, when I said
22 "mid-1998," what I was saying there was that by then
23 Mr. Minton had begun to pay me to assist him, and it wasn't
24 just the wrongful death case.
25 Q Well, to me, this suggests, to be somebody's eyes
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
Volume 9, Page 1133
1 and ears, that you're pretty much there all the time
2 keeping an eye on this case. What does that mean? You --
3 it's your -- it's your phrase. I don't know what that
4 means, "Mr. Minton's eyes and ears in Mr. Dandar's office."
5 A Okay.
6 Q And you're -- and this is your affidavit, and
7 obviously your testimony was that you wanted to put a lot
8 in here. You wanted to set the record straight. And now
9 your testimony --
10 MR. McGOWAN: Object to the form. This is a
11 speech.
12 THE COURT: Sustained. She never testified
13 she wanted to put a lie in here.
14 MR. LIROT: I'm sorry, Judge.
15 THE COURT: I thought that's what you said,
16 you wanted to put a lie in here.
17 MR. LIROT: No, no, no, no. I didn't say
18 that.
19 THE COURT: Oh, okay. What did you say?
20 MR. LIROT: "Eyes and ears." She wanted to
21 be Mr. Minton's eyes and ears. I didn't say -- I
22 didn't say lies. I wasn't accusing Ms. Brooks of
23 lying. I'm just -- I'm just wondering if --
24 BY MR. LIROT:
25 Q What do you mean by that? How could you possibly
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
Volume 9, Page 1134
1 be Mr. Minton's eyes and ears if you've got all this other
2 litigation, or at least three other cases, you're still
3 living in Seattle, and by your own testimony, this doesn't
4 really happen until late 1998. I guess on paragraph 11 you
5 make that statement.
6 MR. WEINBERG: Your Honor, I would object.
7 It's argumentative. If he could just ask one
8 question, just a question.
9 THE COURT: Sustained.
10 When did you become Mr. Minton's eyes and
11 ears?
12 THE WITNESS: Once I began working for
13 Mr. Minton.
14 THE COURT: And was that mid-1998 or was
15 that later in 1998?
16 THE WITNESS: Well, with regard to the work
17 on the wrongful death case, I believe it was later in
18 1998. It was probably in the fall. Yes.
19 BY MR. LIROT:
20 Q Well, then, this doesn't set the record straight.
21 This kind of slants it to a different direction, doesn't
22 it?
23 MR. McGOWAN: Argumentative.
24 THE COURT: Sustained.
25 BY MR. LIROT:
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
Volume 9, Page 1135
1 Q Now, in paragraph 10 -- if you could read that,
2 please.
3 A Yes.
4 Q How many conversations did you have with
5 Mr. Dandar where he said, "How could we bring pressure to
6 bear on Scientology?"
7 A I would estimate as many as 20, perhaps more.
8 Q And this is all in mid to late '98?
9 A No.
10 Q Okay.
11 A No.
12 Q In mid to late '98, how many conversations would
13 you have had with Mr. Dandar relative to the issue of
14 bringing pressure to bear on Scientology?
15 A I don't remember how many in that particular time
16 period. When I say as many as 20, I mean during the course
17 of the time that I was working with him on this case.
18 Q Now, you also say that you advised him to
19 concentrate on attacking the upper echelon of Scientology.
20 And what was your basis in advising him to do that?
21 MR. McGOWAN: This has been asked and
22 answered. We're just going over this.
23 THE COURT: I'm sorry, I was off in my own
24 world here. What was the question?
25 MR. McGOWAN: The question was what was the
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
Volume 9, Page 1136
1 basis of her wanting to concentrate on attacking the
2 upper echelon of Scientology. I think the testimony
3 has been she developed a strategy, and she and
4 Mr. Dandar went over it a number of times.
5 THE COURT: I'm going to allow it to be
6 asked again.
7 BY MR. LIROT:
8 Q It says in paragraph 10, "In each conversation, I
9 advised him he should concentrate on attacking the upper
10 echelon of Scientology." And that's your strategy, isn't
11 it? Isn't that the strategy that you said you developed?
12 A Yes.
13 Q All right. Now, you developed that strategy, and
14 I guess you have a lot of Scientology documents in the Lisa
15 McPherson Trust that I think you earlier testified to that
16 you shredded because of some fear of copyright. Is that
17 correct?
18 A That was in 2000.
19 Q Okay. Well, did you have those -- those
20 documents? Did you have Scientology documents in mid to
21 late 1998?
22 A Yes.
23 Q And you'd been with Scientology for 15 years,
24 correct?
25 A About 14 1/2.
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
Volume 9, Page 1137
1 Q Okay. So -- and I think your testimony was that
2 certainly in some of your declarations and the one that I
3 think we entered into evidence before today, you articulate
4 what your responsibilities were. And certainly you were
5 part of the -- of the OSA, correct?
6 A Correct.
7 Q All right. And that's part of the higher
8 echelon, sort of the Office of Special Affairs? Is that
9 what it is?
10 MR. McGOWAN: It's a compound question, your
11 Honor.
12 THE COURT: Pardon me? That's true.
13 MR. McGOWAN: Object to the form.
14 MR. LIROT: All right.
15 THE COURT: But we do know OSA, what it is.
16 She's told us that.
17 MR. LIROT: Correct, Judge.
18 BY MR. LIROT:
19 Q And OSA is the upper echelon of Scientology.
20 Isn't that correct?
21 A No.
22 Q Okay. OSA has knowledge of how the upper echelon
23 of Scientology is constructed. Is that correct?
24 A No.
25 Q All right. What was OSA's responsibilities when
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
Volume 9, Page 1138
1 you were a member?
2 A Well, it's -- it was what I testified they were
3 earlier.
4 MR. LIROT: Okay.
5 THE COURT: I agree that was testified to;
6 and if not, she very clearly defines it on the time
7 line of Scientology's harassment of Robert S. Minton.
8 I'm looking right at it. She puts it in the one
9 sentence, tells us quite clearly what she says it is.
10 MR. LIROT: All right.
11 BY MR. LIROT:
12 Q In working on all the different declarations that
13 you produced for these other lawsuits, you held yourself
14 out to be an expert, correct?
15 A Correct.
16 Q And you were offering your services as an expert
17 with somebody that was knowledgeable about the upper
18 echelon of Scientology. Isn't that correct?
19 A Yes.
20 Q All right. What did you base your knowledge on
21 regarding your knowledge of the upper echelons of
22 Scientology? Corporate structure, however you referred to
23 it in your declarations.
24 A Primarily I'd spent I believe six months working
25 in an organization called Author Services, Inc.
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
Volume 9, Page 1139
1 Q Okay. And what was Author Services, Inc.,
2 A-U-T-H-O-R?
3 A Author --
4 Q Author.
5 A -- as in writing a book.
6 Q Okay. What was Author Services, Inc.?
7 A Well, this was in 1982, and it was established to
8 be a literary agency for L. Ron Hubbard's fiction work.
9 Q Okay. And what were your responsibilities with
10 that corporation?
11 A I was in charge of taking care of the personnel.
12 Q Okay. What else were your job functions?
13 A That was my job function.
14 Q So you were taking care of all the personnel for
15 Author Services, Inc.?
16 A Yes.
17 Q And that was an organization created to supervise
18 or distribute all of L. Ron Hubbard's fictional work?
19 A It was an organization created to be L. Ron
20 Hubbard's -- a literary agency for L. Ron Hubbard's
21 fiction.
22 Q Okay. How did that interplay with other
23 Scientology organizations?
24 A Well, when it was first established,
25 Mr. Miscavige was the chairman of the board of ASI.
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
Volume 9, Page 1140
1 Q Author Services, Inc.?
2 A Yes.
3 Q All right. And he was the chairman of the board.
4 How did he -- how did he get named to that position?
5 A I don't know.
6 Q What other positions did he hold in the Church at
7 that time?
8 THE COURT: Who are we talking about?
9 MR. LIROT: David Miscavige.
10 THE COURT: Don't we all know -- I mean,
11 there's no dispute over this, is there? Mr. Miscavige
12 took over for L. Ron Hubbard, and he is the head of
13 the Church and everything -- am I wrong here?
14 MR. WEINBERG: No. You're right. But he
15 was asking about 1982, which was four years before
16 Mr. Hubbard died.
17 THE COURT: I'm sorry, okay.
18 MR. LIROT: I guess what I'm asking,
19 Judge -- and I'll frame the question to the witness.
20 BY MR. LIROT:
21 Q What personal knowledge did you have about the
22 corporate structure of Scientology that you felt entitled
23 you to create the declarations where you would go through a
24 description of this corporate structure?
25 A Well, it was fairly anecdotal, but I had heard
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
Volume 9, Page 1141
1 various things about the project that existed at that time,
2 which was I believe begun in 1981, perhaps 1980, in which
3 the corporate structure of the Church was being
4 reorganized. And so I had some general knowledge that that
5 was occurring.
6 Q How did you have knowledge that the corporate
7 structure was being reorganized -- reorgi- -- reorganized?
8 MR. FUGATE: I think she just testified to
9 that, Judge. I object. It was asked and answered.
10 THE COURT: I'm going to allow it.
11 A Well, I --
12 THE COURT: I can't seem to keep my focus
13 here. I don't know whether I'm just off in la-la land
14 or what. If she just said it, I didn't hear it, so --
15 MR. WEINBERG: What she said was it was
16 mostly anecdotal.
17 THE COURT: Okay. I'm going to listen. I'm
18 going to watch you now.
19 All right. Go on ahead.
20 A I had several occasions in which I observed
21 Mr. Miscavige interacting with his subordinates. I knew, I
22 think, two or three of the people that were on the
23 particular project that did the reorganization. I had had
24 several conversations with one of the people who was on
25 staff in ASI about it. And basically what I did was to
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
Volume 9, Page 1142
1 take that -- what I was asked to do was to take the actual
2 experience that I had and turn it into a pattern of
3 conduct.
4 BY MR. LIROT:
5 Q Who asked you to do that?
6 A Well, I was asked for the pattern of conduct by
7 Mr. Berry, Mr. Leiphold, Mr. Dandar.
8 Q Not back then, Mr. Dandar didn't ask you to do
9 anything?
10 A I don't think you asked me in a particular
11 timeframe. You just asked me who asked me to do that.
12 Q Fair enough. Now, at that point, did David
13 Miscavige direct all of the -- I guess the business
14 organizations?
15 MR. WEINBERG: My objection is that they're
16 flying all over the place. She was talking about
17 Leiphold and Berry, which is in the '90s. Now he's
18 talking about, at that point, Mr. Miscavige. I think
19 we were talking about like 1981, right? Or '82. Can
20 we like focus on a date?
21 THE COURT: Okay. Are we talking about 1981
22 or '82?
23 MR. LIROT: I'm talking about the dates in
24 which she has -- she set forth in her declarations
25 that she has some knowledge of the corporate structure
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
Volume 9, Page 1143
1 or the leadership structure of the Church. So my
2 questions deal with those periods of time.
3 THE COURT: Okay. In her -- are you
4 speaking of her affidavits that's filed in this case
5 that dealt with the corporate structure?
6 MR. LIROT: Well, I think her affidavits
7 filed in this case say it was all speculation, and she
8 was, I think, trying to slant -- the later affidavits
9 is that she was trying to slant the information she
10 gave for whoever was asking for it.
11 THE COURT: Okay. I'm sorry. I thought I
12 had just read some affidavit -- which I only read the
13 affidavits that pertain to this case -- where she was
14 talking about some structure.
15 MR. LIROT: All right. Well, let's --
16 THE COURT: I don't know what period of time
17 you're referring to.
18 BY MR. LIROT:
19 Q You prepared some affidavits for this case, for
20 the wrongful death case?
21 A No.
22 Q All right. Did you allow the use of other
23 affidavits where you described the corporate structure of
24 Scientology for use in the wrongful death case?
25 A I believe so.
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
Volume 9, Page 1144
1 Q And you signed an affidavit or something saying,
2 "I incorporate" -- "I incorporate these other affidavits?"
3 A That may be. I haven't actually seen what's
4 being referred to as my affidavits.
5 Q All right. And you tendered this information to
6 at least two other attorneys besides Mr. Dandar, stating
7 under oath that everything that you've stated in whatever
8 declarations or affidavits you filed was true and correct.
9 Is that true?
10 A As a general statement, yes.
11 Q All right. And --
12 THE COURT: Maybe I'm wrong. Maybe what I
13 read had to do with different files, maybe not --
14 maybe it wasn't the corporate structure.
15 Here's, ma'am, is what I read. This is what
16 I'm referring to. I'm referring now to a notice of
17 filing dated the 3rd of February of '98. Ms. --
18 Ms. Young at that time did file an affidavit in this
19 case, basically stating, "I find as an independently
20 retained consultant in this matter, and attached
21 hereto is a genuine copy of another affidavit by
22 affiant --"
23 THE WITNESS: By a what?
24 THE COURT: "Another affidavit by affiant on
25 August 12th, 1983, in the case of Dickerson vs. Sally
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
Volume 9, Page 1145
1 Jesse Raphael" -- that's a new one -- "et al., finding
2 all the statements contained in the attached affidavit
3 are true and accurate."
4 That affidavit -- and I'll show it to you --
5 deals apparently more with various files and whether
6 they would be confidential or non-confidential.
7 I think that's what I was referring to. I
8 was wrong. I did not read one that was dealing with
9 corporate structure.
10 MR. LIROT: Judge, I think the ones
11 regarding corporate structure were incorporated in
12 this case. Prior declarations that described the
13 corporate structure I think were incorporated into
14 this case. Obviously, the record would speak for
15 itself.
16 THE COURT: Okay. Is that -- maybe that's
17 this declaration, which I didn't have a chance to
18 read.
19 MR. DANDAR: Yes, that's the one.
20 MR. LIROT: That's correct, Judge.
21 THE COURT: Okay.
22 MR. LIROT: Apparently there's no cover
23 sheet on that one, but as I understand it, that was
24 one of the declarations that was incorporated into the
25 record in the wrongful death case.
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
Volume 9, Page 1146
1 THE WITNESS: I don't need to look at this
2 one.
3 THE COURT: I guess not.
4 THE WITNESS: Okay.
5 THE COURT: Well, did she ever file a
6 declaration or an affidavit with that one stating it
7 was true?
8 MR. DANDAR: Yes.
9 MR. LIROT: Ms. -- apparently yes.
10 MR. DANDAR: Not like the other one.
11 That -- that one there on the corporate structure was
12 filed with the plaintiff's motion that had all the
13 parties in October '99. She did not file a separate
14 affidavit saying "The attached affidavit is true."
15 THE COURT: So you filed a motion and as
16 part of your motion attached this as an exhibit
17 showing it was an affidavit in another case.
18 MR. DANDAR: Correct. That was our
19 substantive evidence to support the fifth amended
20 complaint which they're now seeking to dismiss.
21 THE COURT: What, this one that --
22 MR. DANDAR: That was just one of them.
23 THE COURT: -- Ms. Young is looking at now?
24 MR. DANDAR: Yes.
25 THE COURT: Okay. Well, then I didn't read
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
Volume 9, Page 1147
1 that in its entirety. I guess I'd better.
2 Not right now. You go ahead and look at it
3 so you know what they're referring to.
4 THE WITNESS: Okay, your Honor.
5 THE COURT: If we're talking about the
6 corporate structure and whether or not David Miscavige
7 is the top of Scientology, I don't know that there's a
8 soul that would doubt that. I mean, I think everybody
9 knew that.
10 You certainly knew that.
11 THE WITNESS: Yes, your Honor.
12 THE COURT: That's not an issue, is it?
13 MR. LIROT: I understand, Judge.
14 THE COURT: Okay.
15 THE WITNESS: May I hold this?
16 THE COURT: Sure. That's -- I need that
17 back, though --
18 THE WITNESS: All right.
19 THE COURT: -- at the end of the day.
20 MR. MOXON: If we could get the date of the
21 affidavit that she's got now.
22 THE WITNESS: It is March 13th, 1997. It
23 was apparently filed in the Wollersheim case. Let me
24 see.
25 I believe it was filed in the Wollersheim
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
Volume 9, Page 1148
1 case. I'm not sure.
2 MR. LIEBERMAN: Your Honor?
3 THE COURT: Yes.
4 MR. LIEBERMAN: I just want to address the
5 comment you made just to make sure the record is clear
6 with respect to Mr. Miscavige, because you used terms
7 like "the head of Scientology" or whatever. They're a
8 little imprecise.
9 Mr. Miscavige is the senior ecclesiastical
10 official in the Scientology religion. He is the
11 chairman of the board of the Religious Technology
12 Center, which has various specific functions of
13 insuring the purity of the Scientology religion. He
14 didn't replace Mr. Hubbard's role, which is unique
15 within the religion and can't be replaced.
16 But he is -- it is true to say he is the
17 senior -- most senior ecclesiastical official in the
18 Church, in the religion, but each individual Church
19 has its own individual corporate leadership. And I
20 just want to be clear of what our position is on that.
21 THE COURT: Without either offending or not
22 offending anybody, when I think of the Catholic
23 Church, I think of the Pope as being the head of the
24 Catholic Church. When I think of the Church of
25 Scientology, I think of David Miscavige as being the
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
Volume 9, Page 1149
1 head of that Church, just like I think of the Pope
2 being the head of the Catholic Church. That's the
3 reference I meant. When I said he's the head, he's
4 the top ecclesiastical leader.
5 MR. LIEBERMAN: I understand.
6 THE COURT: I guess -- and I don't know
7 because I've never, thank God, had to deal with the
8 corporate structure of the Catholic Church, but I'm
9 sure there's a lot of it.
10 MR. LIEBERMAN: Right.
11 THE COURT: And so I'm sure there's this and
12 there's that and the other thing. But if I were going
13 to refer to the Church, I would say the Pope is the
14 head of the Church. That's how I refer to David
15 Miscavige.
16 MR. LIEBERMAN: That's right. But each --
17 just to following the analogy -- then I'll sit down --
18 each archdiocese of the Catholic Church is a separate
19 structure. And usually it's the archbishop or the
20 cardinal who will have authority over the temporal
21 affairs in any particular jurisdiction.
22 THE COURT: And I guess the bishop -- and
23 apparently sometimes the bishop has some control,
24 because it seems to me like they're saying the bishops
25 need to do something about these allegations of sexual
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
Volume 9, Page 1150
1 abuse on children or what have you, like the bishops
2 have some control over the cardinals. I don't know,
3 and I don't want to go there.
4 MR. LIEBERMAN: Right.
5 THE COURT: When I refer -- when I made my
6 reference, as I said, my reference was that that's how
7 I perceived it. Everybody in this courtroom would
8 assume that he was the head ecclesiastical officer.
9 MR. LIEBERMAN: That's right, your Honor.
10 The bishop -- as you said, the bishop might have
11 authority over a particular matter. And while he
12 could have reported something to the Pope, it doesn't
13 mean that he did.
14 THE COURT: Right.
15 MR. LIROT: Unless he was on the ski slopes
16 at the right time, Judge.
17 BY MR. LIROT:
18 Q Now, didn't Mr. Miscavige, during the early '80s
19 when you were still a member of Scientology, run the Author
20 Resource Corporation? Wasn't that a for-profit business
21 that supervised most of Scientology's commercial endeavors?
22 A Excuse me.
23 MR. MOXON: Objection, foundation.
24 THE COURT: Well, I think she can say she
25 doesn't know.
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
Volume 9, Page 1151
1 MR. MOXON: Well --
2 MR. WEINBERG: I think she already said that
3 he was the chairman of the board of Author Services.
4 I object to all the dialogue after that. She said he
5 was chairman of the board of Author Services. She --
6 and she also explained what she understood Author
7 Services was, which was not what Mr. Lirot said. So
8 that was my objection, was to the form.
9 THE COURT: Okay. I think she can answer
10 his question.
11 A Okay. What was the question again?
12 BY MR. LIROT:
13 Q Wasn't Mr. Miscavige in charge of all of the
14 for-profit endeavors of Scientology when you were a member,
15 under I guess the umbrella of Author Resources,
16 Incorporated?
17 A Oh, you mean Author Services.
18 Q Author Services, I'm sorry.
19 A Okay. Perhaps I should clarify. Author Services
20 was a literary agency that was established to take care of
21 L. Ron Hubbard's fiction work. And that was a for-profit
22 corporation that dealt with L. Ron Hubbard's fiction works.
23 Q Did it run other nonprofit Scientology
24 corporations?
25 A No.
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
Volume 9, Page 1152
1 THE COURT: I'm sure there's a point here
2 where you're going to tell us what the relevance of
3 this is.
4 MR. LIROT: Yes, Judge --
5 THE COURT: Okay.
6 MR. LIROT: -- just basically that
7 Mr. Miscavige had knowledge of these upper echelon
8 operations and that essentially -- she testified about
9 the change in the corporate structure. I was going to
10 ask her about that.
11 THE COURT: Okay.
12 MR. LIROT: Okay.
13 BY MR. LIROT:
14 Q What do you know about -- you testified in the
15 '80s there was a major change in the corporate structure.
16 A Yes.
17 Q When did that occur?
18 A Well, I'm not sure when it was finalized. There
19 was an ongoing project, and I believe it was begun in 1981.
20 I don't know that it was actually completed until perhaps
21 1985. But the overall goal of the corporate structure, as
22 I understood it, was to reorganize what was at that time
23 sort of the mother church corporation, which was called the
24 Church of Scientology of California.
25 Q Do you know why that reorganization took place?
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
Volume 9, Page 1153
1 A Again, it was my understanding that -- that had
2 sort of been the first corporation. And then Scientology
3 grew, and it ended up that Church of Scientology of
4 California had various parts of Scientology under it that
5 it couldn't really -- or, that it wasn't really in charge
6 of anymore. And so that -- and again, this is my
7 understanding.
8 But I think the overall idea was to reorganize
9 the corporate structure so that it would more closely
10 resemble or align with the actuality of, you know, what
11 organizations were in charge of what and what Church of
12 Scientology of California actually controlled.
13 MR. WEINBERG: Your Honor, I have an
14 objection, which is lack of foundation. I think when
15 I hear her saying, again, "this is my understanding,"
16 I think what she's saying is she doesn't have personal
17 knowledge of any of this, I think. And that's my
18 objection.
19 THE COURT: Okay. I think that would be
20 accurate.
21 Do you know this or --
22 THE WITNESS: Your Honor, I wasn't ever
23 directly involved in the reorganization. But I --
24 this is what I heard --
25 THE COURT: I mean --
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
Volume 9, Page 1154
1 THE WITNESS: -- pretty much.
2 THE COURT: -- was this discussed as -- I
3 don't know, as a member, whatever member -- were you a
4 Sea Org member?
5 THE WITNESS: Yes, your Honor.
6 THE COURT: All right. Was this discussed,
7 the corporate reorganization or why the corporate
8 reorganization was occurring, with the Sea Org
9 members?
10 THE WITNESS: We were briefed, yes, your
11 Honor.
12 THE COURT: So while you were briefed,
13 you're giving us your best opinion as to what you were
14 told?
15 THE WITNESS: Yes.
16 THE COURT: Overruled. So it may not be
17 true, but apparently she's giving us her information
18 as she believes it to be. I'm not sure where we're
19 going here. I really am not, Counselor.
20 MR. LIROT: I'll bring it back to the
21 affidavit, Judge.
22 BY MR. LIROT:
23 Q Looking at your paragraphs 9 and 10 of your
24 affidavit, you talk about --
25 A Which affidavit?
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
Volume 9, Page 1155
1 Q April 29th, 2002.
2 A Okay. Well, we were talking about another one,
3 so I'm just clarifying that.
4 Q That's all right. I appreciate that.
5 THE COURT: What paragraph, Counselor?
6 MR. LIROT: I'm looking at paragraphs 9 and
7 10 for a question based -- there are two sentences
8 here.
9 BY MR. LIROT:
10 Q In paragraph 9, it says you wanted to make sure
11 that Mr. Dandar emphasized the Scientology aspects of the
12 case as much as possible.
13 A In paragraph 9?
14 Q In paragraph 9, at the end.
15 A Oh, okay, m'hum (affirmative).
16 Q And then in paragraph 10 at the end, it says, "In
17 each conversation, I advised him he should concentrate on
18 attacking the upper echelon of Scientology." What exactly
19 were you telling Mr. Dandar to do?
20 THE COURT: It says "particularly
21 Mr. Miscavige," it says. You've got to finish that.
22 BY MR. LIROT:
23 Q Okay. Well, "upper echelon, particularly
24 Mr. Miscavige." My question is, During this time in 1998,
25 what exactly are you telling Mr. Dandar to do with the
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
Volume 9, Page 1156
1 case?
2 MR. McGOWAN: Your Honor, as to paragraph 9
3 or paragraph 10? There's two different --
4 THE COURT: Oh, I thought you were going to
5 say "asked and answered."
6 MR. McGOWAN: It has been asked and
7 answered.
8 THE COURT: Sustained.
9 MR. WEINBERG: It takes a while to get
10 there.
11 MR. LIROT: All right. Moving right along,
12 Judge.
13 BY MR. LIROT:
14 Q Paragraph 11, would you read that paragraph,
15 please, the August -- excuse me, April 29th, 2002
16 affidavit.
17 THE COURT: We're going to assume, unless
18 you tell us otherwise, all references to "affidavits"
19 now, you're going through the April affidavit.
20 MR. LIROT: That's correct, Judge.
21 THE COURT: April 2002.
22 MR. LIROT: April 2002 affidavit.
23 THE WITNESS: Yes.
24 BY MR. LIROT:
25 Q All right. You say that -- you're talking about
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
Volume 9, Page 1157
1 Mr. Prince. And it says: "Mr. Prince agreed that this was
2 the way to put pressure on Scientology, although we had no
3 evidence to link Miscavige in any way to the events
4 surrounding Lisa McPherson's death." How would you know
5 what Mr. Prince knew?
6 A Mr. Prince had left Scientology in 1992, Mr.
7 Lirot. How could he have any evidence to link
8 Mr. Miscavige to Lisa McPherson's death in 1995? That's
9 what I meant.
10 Q Okay. And you wouldn't have any personal
11 knowledge of that either, would you.
12 A I left Scientology in 1981 -- in 1989.
13 Q And nobody would have any personal knowledge
14 except the people that were in the hotel at the time she
15 died. Isn't that correct?
16 A I wouldn't know who else might, but certainly not
17 someone who wasn't there.
18 Q But Mr. Prince certainly had knowledge of the
19 corporate structure, so to speak, of Scientology. Is that
20 correct?
21 A Are you asking me my understanding of
22 Mr. Princes's understanding?
23 Q I'm asking -- well, are you aware of what
24 position Mr. Prince held in Scientology when he was a
25 member?
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
Volume 9, Page 1158
1 A Yes.
2 Q What was that position?
3 A He was -- his job title was, I believe, deputy
4 inspector general external for a certain part of the time
5 that he was in Scientology.
6 Q Okay.
7 A I mean, he had other positions as well, but that
8 was one position that he held.
9 Q Was that the highest position that he held?
10 A I believe so. That's why I'm saying that one.
11 Q How high a position is that, based on your
12 knowledge of the corporate structure?
13 A That was -- he was directly under the deputy
14 inspector general, who at the time that he was on that
15 position was Vicki Aznaran.
16 MR. FUGATE: Could we just date it so we
17 know kind of where we are, whenever she is talking
18 about?
19 What year was that?
20 THE WITNESS: Uh --
21 THE COURT: When Mr. -- whenever Mr. Prince
22 was --
23 MR. FUGATE: Right, held the highest
24 position.
25 THE COURT: Right.
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
Volume 9, Page 1159
1 A I believe that was nineteen eighty- -- perhaps it
2 was 1985 to somewhere in early 1987. I may be -- I may be
3 mistaken about that, but I believe that is when he held
4 that position.
5 BY MR. LIROT:
6 Q What were his responsibilities?
7 A Again, this is going to be based on what he told
8 me. Well, there was a little bit of an understanding that
9 I had --
10 THE COURT: That's hearsay. Sustained.
11 BY MR. LIROT:
12 Q Okay. What was your understanding, other than
13 what you had heard from Mr. Prince, about his
14 responsibilities?
15 MR. McGOWAN: It's kind of back-door
16 hearsay, same question.
17 THE COURT: Unless -- I don't know, were you
18 all in the Church at the same time?
19 THE WITNESS: Yes.
20 THE COURT: And did you know him when you
21 were in the Church?
22 THE WITNESS: Yes, your Honor.
23 THE COURT: Well, to that extent, she has
24 some knowledge.
25 I don't know how high up he was or how high
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
Volume 9, Page 1160
1 up you were, to tell you the truth. I don't know
2 where he fell in the echelon or where you did. But to
3 the extent she has knowledge, you can tell him.
4 A Well, I didn't have direct dealings with
5 Mr. Prince when he had that position. But it was my
6 understanding when I was in Scientology that his job
7 involved hiring of attorneys -- well, in other words, when
8 it says "external," it -- deputy inspector general
9 external, the "external" was referring to matters external
10 to the Church itself, so that his duties included things
11 like hiring attorneys for various litigation that the
12 Church was involved in, I believe also dealing with other
13 matters that had to do with matters external to -- you
14 know, external to the internal workings of Scientology,
15 basically.
16 BY MR. LIROT:
17 Q Is -- I don't understand. External -- "internal"
18 would mean just within the Church itself?
19 A Yes. There was a deputy inspector general
20 internal --
21 THE COURT: I've got just a -- just a
22 general question here. It seems as if -- and I
23 realize -- and this is by no means insulting, but --
24 and I don't mean this to be, but Mr. Dandar, it seemed
25 like he had -- I don't know that he asked these
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
Volume 9, Page 1161
1 questions.
2 MR. DANDAR: I'm a witness.
3 THE COURT: I mean, I don't know -- what
4 difference does it make? There's no jury here.
5 I mean, it seems like he's having to tell
6 you everything that you're saying, and I understand
7 that, because this probably is not in your knowledge
8 to date, necessarily. And if it is in his, it seems
9 like we could get there faster if he could just ask
10 the questions direct.
11 MR. LIROT: If you will bear me with a
12 little longer --
13 THE COURT: I will.
14 MR. LIROT: -- I think I can get there.
15 THE COURT: I guess I will, but I'm saying
16 it will not offend me if Mr. Dandar were to
17 participate. He is co-counsel in this case and
18 therefore is permitted to make inquiry.
19 MR. LIROT: All right.
20 THE COURT: Just because he's a witness in
21 this hearing does not mean that he is -- he is
22 co-counsel in this case and therefore can at any time
23 ask questions.
24 MR. LIROT: I think I was operating from a
25 different assumption, Judge, so I appreciate your
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
Volume 9, Page 1162
1 attitude in that.
2 THE COURT: Well, I don't know that they
3 asked me to, and I will allow him to ask questions. I
4 will sustain that. I think he is co-counsel. He has
5 not been removed. This is a motion to dismiss this
6 case --
7 MR. LIROT: Yes, it is.
8 THE COURT: -- throw it out.
9 MR. LIROT: That's correct.
10 THE COURT: This has been his case for five
11 years.
12 MR. LIROT: That's absolutely correct.
13 THE COURT: And you just got in on it at the
14 last minute, so I -- I don't mean at the last minute,
15 but you certainly have been added --
16 MR. LIROT: I'm a new arrival.
17 THE COURT: You're a new arrival, and a very
18 welcome arrival, Mr. Lirot. But a lot of this
19 information has been acquired, I assume, by Mr. Dandar
20 through years of working on this case. And I have no
21 qualms at all about his asking any witness, including
22 this one, Mr. Minton, or anybody else, questions.
23 Just because he's a witness doesn't mean he can't make
24 inquiry for his client, whose case is at risk.
25 MR. LIROT: I understand that. Well, Judge,
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
Volume 9, Page 1163
1 in light of that, seeing as it's 2:30, I think the old
2 saying is measure twice, cut once. Can we take five
3 minutes, and I can talk with Mr. Dandar to see if
4 there's a way to expedite this.
5 THE COURT: Sure. Am I crazy here? I mean,
6 this is a motion to dismiss the case. Just because
7 Mr. Dandar is a witness doesn't mean he can't ask
8 questions.
9 MR. FUGATE: Do you think I'm going to say
10 you're crazy, Judge?
11 THE COURT: I mean, I understand if a lawyer
12 is a witness in a jury trial where their credibility
13 is at issue -- and, naturally, this is a trial before
14 the Court, the credibility is at issue. But he
15 certainly is a lawyer in this case until removed, and
16 this is an issue that some of this has nothing to do
17 with his credibility. It has to do with what -- the
18 plaintiff wants to ask of these witnesses to get in
19 this record. The faster we can do that, the better.
20 MR. FUGATE: I don't disagree with that
21 analysis, Judge.
22 MR. WEINBERG: And we never asked that he
23 not participate.
24 THE COURT: Okay. Well, I didn't know that.
25 You certainly have not asked me.
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
Volume 9, Page 1164
1 MR. WEINBERG: No.
2 THE COURT: So I'm perfectly willing to let
3 him help you or actually make inquiry.
4 MR. LIROT: All right. Judge, can we take a
5 10-minute break and let me talk to him about that?
6 THE COURT: Absolutely. Go on ahead and
7 take a 10-minute break. I'm just kind of thinking to
8 myself. I'm not sure what I'm thinking.
9 THE BAILIFF: All rise. Court is recessed
10 for 10 minutes.
11 (Break taken at 2:30 p.m. until 2:37 p.m. )
12 THE COURT: You may continue.
13 MR. LIROT: Judge, Mr. Dandar is going to
14 continue the questioning.
15 THE COURT: All right.
16 CROSS-EXAMINATION
17 BY MR. DANDAR:
18 Q Ms. Brooks, have you ever testified in a
19 declaration that David Miscavige as the captain of the Sea
20 Org runs all of Scientology?
21 A Probably.
22 Q Is that a truthful statement?
23 A I don't recall.
24 Q Is that a truthful statement if it's in your
25 declarations in other cases?
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
Volume 9, Page 1165
1 MR. FUGATE: He should direct her to a
2 particular affidavit if we're going to start asking
3 about affidavits.
4 THE COURT: About an affidavit, I think you
5 can ask her if that's accurate, according to an
6 affidavit.
7 MR. DANDAR: (Gestured.)
8 BY MR. DANDAR:
9 Q If you said it in a prior declaration, it would
10 be accurate, correct, truthful?
11 A If I said what?
12 Q If you said David Miscavige as the captain of the
13 Sea Org controls all of Scientology?
14 A I don't recall the wording that I used. But what
15 is accurate is that Mr. Miscavige does control Scientology,
16 and Mr. Miscavige is the chairman of the board of RTC.
17 Q All right. My question is, If you said in a
18 prior declaration --
19 THE COURT: Well, I think if you're going to
20 say in any prior declaration, if you can find it, you
21 really ought to find it and show it to her.
22 BY MR. DANDAR:
23 Q Did you advise me when I first met you and your
24 husband up in Seattle in the spring of 1997 that David
25 Miscavige controls all of Scientology, not in his position
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
Volume 9, Page 1166
1 as the chairman of the board of RTC, but as captain of the
2 Sea Org?
3 A I don't believe I did.
4 Q Do you --
5 A I wouldn't use those words.
6 Q Do you recall your husband, Vaughn Young, telling
7 me that?
8 A I don't.
9 Q Okay. I'd like to have this marked as our next
10 exhibit. It's the Sea Org News.
11 THE COURT: Do you have one for the witness?
12 MR. DANDAR: Yes. This is 31, of the
13 plaintiff's.
14 MR. MOXON: Can we date this, Mr. Dandar?
15 MR. DANDAR: I'll ask the witness that.
16 How come I don't have one? I'll take this
17 one back.
18 THE COURT: Are these dated? I don't know.
19 Is there a date on here?
20 MR. DANDAR: I believe there's a -- yes,
21 there is, 1982, October 17th, San Francisco,
22 California.
23 THE COURT: Were you in the Church at that
24 time?
25 THE WITNESS: Yes, I was, your Honor.
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
Volume 9, Page 1167
1 THE COURT: Okay.
2 BY MR. DANDAR:
3 Q And while you were a member of -- were you a
4 member of OSA at the time, or the Guardian's Office, at the
5 time in 1982?
6 A No.
7 Q Okay. The Sea Org News, do you recall you and
8 your husband giving me this copy of the Sea Org News?
9 A We probably did. I used it in a declaration.
10 Q And the Sea Org News goes into great detail of
11 how Mr. Miscavige came into the San Francisco mission and
12 removed the corporate officers of that San Francisco
13 corporation. Is that correct?
14 A That is correct.
15 Q Okay. And he did that because he was the captain
16 of the Sea Org. Is that correct?
17 A That's not correct.
18 Q Well, how did he do it?
19 A He did it from his authority as -- as RTC. He
20 did it from RTC's authority, and I believe one of his
21 attorneys was also there to make that clear. But I do --
22 but I did say to you that this could be used to show him as
23 head of the Sea Org.
24 Q I'm sorry. Back then his position was Commodore
25 David Miscavige. Is that correct?
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
Volume 9, Page 1168
1 A That's incorrect.
2 Q Well, look at page 2, middle column, right below
3 the word "audience" at the bottom of the column.
4 A Yes.
5 Q Does that say Commodore David Miscavige?
6 A No.
7 Q What does that say?
8 A It says "commander."
9 Q Commander, okay. Was that the highest position
10 in the Sea Org at that time outside of Mr. Hubbard's
11 position?
12 A I don't know, but I do know that he does have the
13 highest position.
14 Q Sorry.
15 THE COURT: What does "RTC" stand for again?
16 MR. FUGATE: Religious Technology Center.
17 THE COURT: Okay.
18 BY MR. DANDAR:
19 Q How could I use this to show the power of
20 Mr. Miscavige in the Sea Org and throughout all of
21 Scientology, Ms. Brooks? How did you tell me to use it?
22 A How could you?
23 Q Yes. How did you tell me to use it?
24 A Well, basically what I said in my -- in one of my
25 declarations -- and I think I testified to this earlier,
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
Volume 9, Page 1169
1 Mr. Dandar -- that since you had -- well, during what time
2 period are you talking about or speaking about this?
3 Q In 1982.
4 MR. WEINBERG: She asked about when you
5 spoke to her.
6 BY MR. DANDAR:
7 Q In the spring of '97.
8 A Oh. I'm not -- I'm not clear on why you would
9 have been concerned about Mr. Miscavige as anything other
10 than chairman of the board of RTC in 1997, because it
11 wasn't until Judge Moody said that you couldn't name him as
12 head of the RTC that you needed to be able to name him in
13 some other capacity.
14 Q This is back in the spring of '97, before we ever
15 had a hearing with Judge Moody, which did not take place
16 until two years later.
17 A All right.
18 Q So I'm asking you back in November or the spring
19 of 1997, when I first met you and your husband in Seattle,
20 isn't it true that you told me that the person that runs
21 all of Scientology is Mr. Miscavige through his position in
22 the Sea Org?
23 MR. WEINBERG: That's asked and answered,
24 your Honor. She said no, it wasn't through the Sea
25 Org; it was through his position as chairman of the
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
Volume 9, Page 1170
1 board of Religious Technology Center, the exact same
2 question.
3 THE COURT: Sustained.
4 THE WITNESS: Are we done with this one?
5 MR. LIROT: We're done with that. The
6 document speaks for itself.
7 Your Honor, I would like to have this income
8 tax return marked as our next exhibit. This will be
9 No. 32.
10 MR. MOXON: Is that the LMT?
11 MR. DANDAR: Lisa McPherson Trust.
12 THE COURT: Is that the one we have that I
13 got today?
14 MR. DANDAR: Yes.
15 THE COURT: I think I've got a copy of it.
16 MR. DANDAR: Do you have a copy?
17 THE COURT: I think I do.
18 MR. DANDAR: Okay. If you don't, I have an
19 extra. Here you go, right there.
20 BY MR. DANDAR:
21 Q There you go (handing). Who prepared this income
22 tax return? The Lisa McPherson Trust for the year 2000.
23 A An accountant.
24 Q Was this filed?
25 A Yes.
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
Volume 9, Page 1171
1 Q Did you sign for it, or sign for it on the first
2 page as the corporate officer?
3 A I believe I did, although this one doesn't have
4 the signature for some reason.
5 Q Is this an accurate copy of what was filed with
6 the IRS?
7 A I would assume so.
8 Q Do you have any reason --
9 A I would need to see -- I would need to see a
10 signed copy in order to know that for sure.
11 Q Okay.
12 THE COURT: Well, I take it this is what you
13 produced.
14 THE WITNESS: I believe this may be.
15 MR. McGOWAN: Yes, it is. This was faxed to
16 me from the CPA in Jacksonville, whose name appears
17 here, pursuant to a request by Ms. Brooks.
18 THE COURT: Okay. So you have no reason to
19 doubt --
20 THE WITNESS: I would assume it is, yes,
21 your Honor.
22 BY MR. DANDAR:
23 Q And the CPA is in Jacksonville. That's because
24 Mr. Merrett found the CPA for you?
25 A Yes.
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
Volume 9, Page 1172
1 Q Okay. Now, the Lisa McPherson Trust was
2 incorporated by me at the request of Mr. Minton, correct?
3 I filed the papers for the trust?
4 A Yes.
5 Q Okay. It's incorporated as a for-profit
6 corporation?
7 A Yes.
8 Q And Mr. Minton funded the corporation, correct?
9 A Yes.
10 Q And that fund by Mr. Minton, was it a loan or a
11 gift?
12 A It was a loan.
13 Q All of the money?
14 A Yes.
15 Q Okay. So turn to page -- and it was a loan to
16 the corporation?
17 A Yes.
18 Q Okay. Turn to what's numbered at the top in the
19 right-hand corner page 5, and look at line 19.
20 THE COURT: Page 5?
21 MR. DANDAR: Yes.
22 MR. FUGATE: There's a fax page 5 and
23 there's a form page 4.
24 MR. DANDAR: Fax page 5, form page 4.
25 BY MR. DANDAR:
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
Volume 9, Page 1173
1 Q Loan from shareholders --
2 THE COURT: Wait a second. I want to make
3 sure I have the right -- oh, okay, I have got it, fax
4 page 5, form page 4.
5 BY MR. DANDAR:
6 Q "Loan from shareholders" is blank. Is that
7 correct?
8 A Yes.
9 Q Can you explain to us why Mr. Minton's loans are
10 not placed there?
11 A I would imagine because he wasn't a shareholder
12 when this was done.
13 Q When did he cease --
14 A I'm not sure.
15 Q -- being a shareholder?
16 A Perhaps March.
17 Q What year?
18 A Of 2000. I'm not -- I'm not sure about that, but
19 I believe that's the case.
20 Q And this corporation that shows -- this corporate
21 return that shows no income whatsoever but an $829,449
22 loss, was that taken by you as a personal loss on your 2000
23 return?
24 A No.
25 Q This is a Sub S corporation, isn't it?
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
Volume 9, Page 1174
1 A Does it say that somewhere on this form?
2 Q Well, let me just ask you if you're aware of
3 that.
4 A I don't know what that means.
5 THE COURT: If it was 1120-S, it would say
6 1120-S. It doesn't. I mean, I don't know if it's
7 Subchapter S or not. But most of the time, people say
8 1120 or 1120-S.
9 MR. DANDAR: Okay.
10 THE COURT: So I'm going to assume from
11 looking at this that it is an 1120, which means it's a
12 regular corporation.
13 MR. DANDAR: I think there are corporate
14 returns somewhere in the pile of exhibits.
15 THE COURT: There's a huge difference.
16 1120-S, the loss flows through to an individual. On
17 an 1120, it does not.
18 MR. DANDAR: Right.
19 THE COURT: So if this is an 1120 and
20 neither she nor Mr. Minton took this as a loss, it's
21 probably improper.
22 MR. DANDAR: Okay.
23 THE COURT: If it's an 1120-S, they would
24 have some ability to flow the loss through to their
25 1040.
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
Volume 9, Page 1175
1 MR. DANDAR: Okay.
2 THE COURT: Did you know that I worked for
3 the IRS?
4 MR. DANDAR: This is wonderful. I didn't
5 know that.
6 THE COURT: Yes. I was an agent. That's
7 why I understand about income tax.
8 MR. DANDAR: Great. Okay.
9 BY MR. DANDAR:
10 Q Now, one thing I wanted to clear up. When Jesse
11 Prince was looking for an attorney for the thing that
12 happened to him, the tampering with the witness, I referred
13 him to Mr. McGowan. Is that correct?
14 A When he was looking for an attorney to sue
15 Scientology?
16 Q Right.
17 A Yes.
18 Q Right. And you and I and Mr. Prince went to
19 Mr. McGowan's office for a conference, correct?
20 A Yes.
21 Q Okay. And then when the LMT got sued in the
22 breach of contract case before Judge Baird, isn't it true
23 that you called me up and asked me for a referral to an
24 attorney, and I referred you to Mr. McGowan after I first
25 talked to him to see if he was interested in representing
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
Volume 9, Page 1176
1 you or the LMT? Isn't that correct?
2 A You say it with a lot of forcefulness, and so it
3 may be.
4 Q You don't remember that?
5 A I don't, really.
6 Q It's just a few months ago, isn't it?
7 A Okay. I don't remember that.
8 Q Okay.
9 A I'm not saying it didn't happen, Mr. Dandar.
10 Q Okay. Now, did you ever tell me that you were a
11 spy for Mr. Minton whenever you would come to my office and
12 I would ask you questions as a consultant?
13 A I didn't characterize it that way.
14 Q Why do you characterize it that way in your
15 affidavit of April 29th --
16 A Because it's --
17 Q 2000?
18 A Because it's basically what I was.
19 THE COURT: Is that -- "eyes and ears," is
20 that the spy?
21 MR. DANDAR: She used the word "spy."
22 BY MR. DANDAR:
23 Q Did you not? As well as eyes and ears in your
24 affidavit of 2002.
25 A Yes, I did, and I believe you were acutely aware
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
Volume 9, Page 1177
1 of the fact that I was reporting everything to Mr. Minton,
2 and that's why you would couch everything that you would
3 say to me the way you did, Mr. Dandar.
4 Q So you weren't a very good spy if I knew you were
5 being a spy then, were you? Are you saying that I knew you
6 were a spy?
7 A That's your position.
8 Q Are you saying that I knew you were a spy for
9 Mr. Minton?
10 A You knew that everything that you were saying to
11 me was being reported to Mr. Minton.
12 Q Okay.
13 A And that's why you didn't like talking to me very
14 much.
15 Q Isn't it true in 1998 you introduced me to Jesse
16 Prince?
17 A Yes.
18 Q And isn't it true the first time that Jesse
19 Prince came into my office was when you and he were
20 reviewing the Lisa McPherson PC folders?
21 A That could be.
22 Q And isn't it true that that happened in November
23 of 1998?
24 A That could be.
25 Q And from those -- your examination with
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
Volume 9, Page 1178
1 Mr. Prince for a few days of the PC folders, you and
2 Mr. Prince told me to go ahead and get the 1995 folders
3 only at that point in time.
4 A Why do we -- what was the -- what were we doing
5 at that time? Can you refresh my memory?
6 Q You don't remember?
7 A Why --
8 Q You were reviewing the PC folders. Do you
9 remember that?
10 A Yes.
11 Q In my office on O'Brien Street?
12 A In the conference room.
13 Q Right, the three-story building that has no
14 elevator? Do you remember that?
15 A Yes.
16 Q Okay. And isn't it true that at that time I was
17 not paying you at all?
18 A That's correct.
19 Q And I didn't pay Mr. Prince to do that either.
20 Isn't that true?
21 A I don't know. I know what he was being paid by
22 Mr. Minton directly. I thought he was also being paid by
23 you then. Perhaps you didn't start paying him until
24 December.
25 Q Do you have any idea when I started to pay
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
Volume 9, Page 1179
1 Mr. Prince?
2 A Do I have any idea why?
3 Q Yes -- when.
4 A I believe it was at the end of -- end of 1998 or
5 perhaps it was at the beginning of '99.
6 Q Did you give me orders to hire Mr. Prince?
7 A Did I? No.
8 Q Did anyone give me an order to hire Mr. Prince as
9 an expert witness?
10 A As I understand it, I think Mr. Minton strongly
11 suggested that you should.
12 Q When did that take place?
13 A I don't remember. When did you hire him as an
14 expert?
15 Q Would it surprise you to know that I decided -- I
16 am the only one that decided to hire Mr. Prince?
17 A That would surprise me.
18 Q Really. And when did I -- when did Mr. Minton
19 suggest strongly that I hire Mr. Prince?
20 A Beginning -- before he came to Clearwater in '98.
21 Q So you don't know that I actually retained
22 Mr. Prince in June of 1998? You don't know that, do you?
23 A I just said I don't remember when.
24 Q Okay.
25 A But I know that Mr. Minton was supporting him,
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
Volume 9, Page 1180
1 either directly or indirectly, since July of 1998, which is
2 what I testified to.
3 MR. FUGATE: Your Honor, I do have an
4 objection to the form that's being utilized. He's
5 testifying and asking the witness is it true or not
6 and then commenting. And I don't think that's what we
7 anticipated, nor did I think the Court anticipated
8 that. If he's got questions, he asks questions. But
9 he testifies and then says "isn't that true" or "you
10 didn't know that."
11 THE COURT: Actually, to some extent that's
12 what a leading question is. You know, a leading
13 question is just sort of that. It's a lawyer
14 testifying.
15 MR. FUGATE: I understand that. But in this
16 particular instance, I just object to that being
17 utilized in the form of his stating things as a fact.
18 THE COURT: If in fact he -- if in fact he
19 does not testify, I will not take any of that as
20 testimony from Mr. Dandar.
21 MR. FUGATE: Thank you.
22 THE COURT: But he can lead this witness.
23 As a matter of fact, leading questions are --
24 MR. FUGATE: I have no problem with that,
25 Judge. It's just that when he testifies, "you didn't
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
Volume 9, Page 1181
1 know anything about that," that's testimony. That's
2 not cross-examination, in my judgment.
3 BY MR. DANDAR:
4 Q Just for the record, you used the word "spy" in
5 paragraph 22 of your April 2002 affidavit. Is that
6 correct?
7 A Let me take a look, Mr. Dandar.
8 Q All right. Right after you say "eyes and ears."
9 A Sorry?
10 Q Right after you say "eyes and ears."
11 A Yes.
12 Q Okay.
13 THE COURT: In paragraph 22? Oh, I see it,
14 okay. Thank you.
15 BY MR. DANDAR:
16 Q Now, Ms. Brooks, when I first met you and your
17 husband in the spring of 1997 in Seattle, you did not want
18 to participate at all in being my consultant in the Lisa
19 McPherson case. Isn't that correct?
20 A I don't recall that that was the case.
21 Q Do you recall that it was your husband, Vaughn
22 Young, that wanted to be the expert and help me as an
23 expert or a consultant in the Lisa McPherson case?
24 A Would you like me to tell you what I recall?
25 Q No, just yes or no is all I need.
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
Volume 9, Page 1182
1 A Okay. What was the question again?
2 Q Isn't it true that your husband, Vaughn, is the
3 one that wanted to be my expert and consultant in the Lisa
4 McPherson case? When I first met you --
5 A Okay. It's true that Mr. Young wanted to be your
6 consultant. That is true.
7 Q And isn't it true that he actually testified on
8 behalf of the estate as an expert in Scientology practices?
9 A I believe he was deposed and filed a declaration.
10 Q And didn't he also participate in a video trial
11 deposition because of his progressive cancer to preserve
12 his testimony for trial?
13 A Oh. Well, okay. I thought that was a
14 deposition, but if that was what it was, that's fine. I
15 attended.
16 Q Now, isn't it true that your husband, Vaughn
17 Young, as my expert slash consultant is the one that
18 educated me on Scientology when I first visited up there in
19 the spring of 1997 at Seattle, Washington?
20 A It's true that he did that.
21 Q Isn't it true that he also helped draft many
22 paragraphs of the first amended complaint that deal with
23 Scientology?
24 A I believe that is true.
25 Q Which also included --
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
Volume 9, Page 1183
1 THE COURT: Are you getting ready to look at
2 the first amended --
3 MR. DANDAR: Yes.
4 THE COURT: -- complaint?
5 MR. DANDAR: Yes.
6 BY MR. DANDAR:
7 Q Which also includes paragraph 12 --
8 THE WITNESS: Are we done with this now?
9 MR. DANDAR: Yes, we are. Let me take that
10 away.
11 THE WITNESS: Okay. Wait, wait, wait.
12 There's something underneath that.
13 MR. DANDAR: Okay. Do you need that?
14 THE WITNESS: Do I?
15 MR. DANDAR: Do you need to read that?
16 THE COURT: Is that the one that was mine?
17 THE WITNESS: This was filed -- oh, yes,
18 this is yours.
19 BY MR. DANDAR:
20 Q In fact, the one you just handed back to the
21 Judge, that was a declaration of yours from another case
22 that you had given me --
23 THE WITNESS: I need it back. Thank you.
24 MR. DANDAR: I'm sorry.
25 BY MR. DANDAR:
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
Volume 9, Page 1184
1 Q -- that you had given me to support the estate's
2 motion to add on David Miscavige as a defendant in the
3 case.
4 A I believe so.
5 Q Okay.
6 A Are we done with it now?
7 Q Yes. Yes, we're done with it now.
8 THE WITNESS: Thank you.
9 BY MR. DANDAR:
10 Q So paragraph --
11 MR. FUGATE: Just for the record, which one
12 were we talking about?
13 THE COURT: This is the one that has been
14 filed in this case.
15 MR. FUGATE: Okay.
16 THE COURT: And it's a declaration -- it
17 supposedly was attached to a motion that they're going
18 to provide to us. In other words, this is a
19 declaration of Stacy M. filed in this case, and that's
20 what it says, "Declaration of Stacy M."
21 MR. WEINBERG: Right. And does it have a
22 date on it at the end?
23 THE COURT: It does not that I can see.
24 MR. DANDAR: Judge, let me correct you.
25 That's a declaration from another case that was filed
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
Volume 9, Page 1185
1 in this case, attached to the motion to add.
2 THE COURT: 13th of March of 1997 --
3 MR. WEINBERG: Right.
4 THE COURT: -- in Seattle. That's the date
5 of this declaration. But as I understand, it was
6 attached to a motion --
7 MR. DANDAR: Yes.
8 THE COURT: -- filed in this case. And
9 you're now saying it was a motion to add David
10 Miscavige.
11 MR. DANDAR: Yes. But that particular
12 declaration came from another case where Ms. Young,
13 Ms. Brooks, was an expert witness.
14 THE COURT: Okay.
15 BY MR. DANDAR:
16 Q Do you remember the name of the case, Ms. Brooks?
17 THE WITNESS: Could I have it back?
18 THE COURT: Sure.
19 A If you would just let me look at it for a minute,
20 I can probably tell you.
21 MR. WEINBERG: While she's looking, the
22 motion you're talking about is your September 7, '99
23 motion to add David Miscavige?
24 MR. DANDAR: Probably.
25 THE COURT: Well, there were a couple, I
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
Volume 9, Page 1186
1 think. One was granted and one was denied.
2 THE WITNESS: Oh. I think this was the one
3 that was filed in the Wollersheim case, your Honor.
4 BY MR. DANDAR:
5 Q Okay. And that talks about the corporate
6 structure as being on paper only, otherwise ignored in
7 practice?
8 A Yes.
9 Q All right. That was a truthful declaration,
10 correct?
11 A It was true.
12 Q Thank you. Now --
13 A To the best of my belief.
14 Q All right. When -- when you started to meet with
15 Mr. Rosen in March of 2002 and thereafter with Ms. Yingling
16 and Mr. Rinder --
17 THE COURT: Are we done going through her
18 affidavit?
19 MR. DANDAR: No.
20 THE WITNESS: I thought that's what we were
21 going to do.
22 BY MR. DANDAR:
23 Q Well, I'm going to come right back to that,
24 because this reminded me --
25 A Are we done with this one?
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
Volume 9, Page 1187
1 Q I'm sorry. First amended complaint,
2 paragraph 12, talks about David Miscavige running all of
3 Scientology, doesn't it.
4 A Let me just read it, okay?
5 Q All right.
6 A Okay.
7 Q Is that what it talks about?
8 A And this is -- what is this? The first amended
9 complaint?
10 Q Right.
11 A Okay.
12 Q Isn't it true that that paragraph was drafted by
13 your former husband, Mr. Young, back in the spring of 1997?
14 A I don't -- either I don't know or I don't
15 remember.
16 Q Okay. And if it was drafted by Mr. Young back in
17 the spring of 1997, it was certainly before you, I, or
18 Mr. Young ever met personally and talked to Mr. Minton,
19 correct?
20 A It -- I'm not sure what you're saying. I never
21 met Mr. Minton until October -- or, November actually.
22 Q Okay.
23 THE COURT: Of '97?
24 THE WITNESS: Yes, your Honor.
25 BY MR. DANDAR:
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
Volume 9, Page 1188
1 Q Now, the question that I have is that in
2 paragraph 23, you talk about --
3 MR. FUGATE: Of what?
4 A Of the affidavit?
5 BY MR. DANDAR:
6 Q Now we're back to the affidavit of April 2002,
7 paragraph 22.
8 A Twenty-two?
9 Q Yes. You talk about being my consultant in the
10 Lisa McPherson case. And you have been my consultant in
11 the Lisa McPherson case, correct?
12 THE COURT: Are you -- are you skipping over
13 some of the paragraphs in between?
14 MR. DANDAR: I hope not.
15 THE WITNESS: No, your Honor. I think we've
16 done it.
17 THE COURT: Have we? Okay.
18 THE WITNESS: Twenty-two, yes.
19 BY MR. DANDAR:
20 Q You have been my consultant in the Lisa McPherson
21 case, correct?
22 A Yes, you had hired me, along with Vaughn, my
23 husband, in 1997, both of us.
24 Q And in fact, do you recall that I only sent one
25 check that had your name on it and your husband's name on
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
Volume 9, Page 1189
1 it? All the other checks just had Vaughn's name on it. Do
2 you recall that?
3 A I don't, but it would be in keeping with the way
4 Vaughn and I always used to get paid. The checks didn't
5 need to be paid to both of us. We had a joint account.
6 Q Okay. Now, when you handed over my work product
7 letter of -- Exhibit 73, I believe, of the defense, where I
8 talked about Miscavige and what evidence do you have and
9 make sure that I had enough evidence to add him on or to
10 consider him as a party defendant, in May of 1997, that
11 letter that you handed over to the Church of Scientology --
12 A They already had a copy, Mr. Dandar.
13 Q Well, I'm not so sure. How would they get a copy
14 of that letter?
15 A I'm not sure. I'm not sure.
16 Q Do you recall testifying last week that you
17 handed it -- you went to Atlanta to get that letter --
18 A Yes.
19 Q -- and handed it to them?
20 THE COURT: She also testified she thought
21 they had it.
22 BY MR. DANDAR:
23 Q And did they have it?
24 A I believe they did.
25 Q So when you handed them this letter, they said,
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
Volume 9, Page 1190
1 "Oh, here, we've already got another copy right here"?
2 A No, they didn't say that.
3 Q Well, how did you come to say now that you think
4 they already had that letter?
5 A I didn't say that now; I said that last week.
6 Q Well, whenever you said that the first time.
7 What makes you say that? What are you basing that on?
8 A My recollection.
9 Q And who produced that letter that you saw for you
10 to testify that they already had the letter that I sent to
11 you and your husband in May of '97?
12 A I believe it was part of papers that Mr. Rinder
13 provided to us.
14 Q What date?
15 A I don't remember.
16 Q Saturday after Judge Schaeffer's hearing?
17 A No. It was much later.
18 Q Did you ask them how they got that letter?
19 A No, I didn't.
20 THE COURT: But you did tell us that you
21 weren't surprised that they had it.
22 THE WITNESS: I wasn't, your Honor. And to
23 be -- to tell you the truth, it's possible that I
24 turned it over in earlier discovery, but I don't
25 recall. I do know that I was --
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
Volume 9, Page 1191
1 THE COURT: You weren't suggesting that you
2 weren't surprised because you thought they got it out
3 of your house or your husband's house or Mr. Dandar's
4 office?
5 THE WITNESS: No. I didn't think that.
6 BY MR. DANDAR:
7 Q Now, you retained an attorney for the Lisa
8 McPherson Trust in paragraph 23, John Merrett, that
9 Patricia Greenway referred you to, correct?
10 A Yes.
11 Q And she found him on the Internet chat channel,
12 correct?
13 A That's what she told me.
14 Q All right. Now, you say here that Mr. Merrett
15 is, quote, "an extension of Mr. Dandar." What do you mean
16 by that?
17 A Well, I think -- I think it speaks for itself in
18 this paragraph.
19 THE COURT: What paragraph are we on? I'm
20 sorry.
21 MR. DANDAR: Twenty-three.
22 THE WITNESS: We're on 23 now.
23 THE COURT: Thank you.
24 MR. DANDAR: Bottom of 23, four lines from
25 the bottom.
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
Volume 9, Page 1192
1 THE COURT: Okay.
2 BY MR. DANDAR:
3 Q So he's an extension of Mr. Dandar simply
4 because, quote, "he's coordinating with him on pleadings he
5 filed and arguments he made"?
6 A Well, if you recall, you were concerned about
7 representing everybody and thought it would be a good idea
8 for us to get another attorney.
9 Q In fact, I only represented the LMT once, and
10 that was before Judge Penich on a restraining order, is
11 that correct, that Mr. Howd and the Church of Scientology
12 filed against Mr. Minton and the LMT?
13 THE COURT: We know you were the
14 representative to file the corporate papers.
15 MR. DANDAR: Well, that's true. That's one
16 time.
17 THE COURT: Well, that's then another time.
18 BY MR. DANDAR:
19 Q All right. Is that the only time I represented
20 the LMT, the incorporation papers in that one hearing with
21 Judge Penich in early 2000, I told you --
22 A You certainly represented --
23 MR. FUGATE: I object to that because it
24 misstates -- that question misstates the record in
25 this case.
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
Volume 9, Page 1193
1 THE COURT: I only know of those two times.
2 There may be more, I don't know, but that's all I know
3 of at this point. So I'm going to overrule it based
4 on my knowledge at this point.
5 BY MR. DANDAR:
6 Q Is there any other time that I represented the
7 LMT that you know?
8 A Well, I believe you represented me and
9 Mr. Minton. I'm not sure about the corporation.
10 Q When did I represent you?
11 A Well, there were a number of times when there
12 were hearings and you were the only attorney.
13 Q Okay.
14 A And you -- you were concerned about being the
15 only attorney representing everybody and thought it would
16 be a good idea to have another attorney to separate things
17 out.
18 Q Are you -- from this statement in your affidavit,
19 are you inferring that I was in control of Mr. Merrett?
20 A Did I say that?
21 Q No. I'm asking if you're inferring that.
22 A I would be implying that, but I don't believe I
23 am.
24 Q All right. You're not implying that, right?
25 A I don't believe I said that.
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
Volume 9, Page 1194
1 Q Okay. All right. And by the way, you mentioned
2 or the Court mentioned this, and I just want to clear
3 something up. Isn't it true that I have never participated
4 in a picket of Scientology except the vigils that were held
5 in honor of Lisa McPherson that were held in the evening
6 that were not pickets?
7 A What about the one outside the criminal
8 courthouse, Ken?
9 Q Was that a picket? Is that your testimony? I
10 need to clarify that.
11 THE COURT: You sure it wasn't a vigil?
12 MR. DANDAR: No. It was just a picture. It
13 wasn't a picket. I wasn't holding a sign.
14 THE COURT: Whatever it was, Mr. Dandar,
15 until this case is over, I would hope that I don't
16 have to see them again.
17 MR. DANDAR: But I'm not --
18 THE COURT: Do what you want to do, but
19 frankly, I didn't like it when I saw it. I still
20 don't like it. I don't think it's appropriate for
21 lawyers to be pictured like that. So whatever it was,
22 in all candor, I think it ought not be lawyers
23 representing people participating in it.
24 I mean, it's a First Amendment, you can do
25 it. You have every right to do it. So does everybody
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
Volume 9, Page 1195
1 else. But I don't think lawyers ought to be out
2 carrying signs. I don't think it's a good thing.
3 BY MR. DANDAR:
4 Q Isn't it true, Ms. Brooks, I was not carrying a
5 sign at the courthouse?
6 THE WITNESS: Your Honor, I don't think he
7 was actually carrying a sign.
8 THE COURT: Okay.
9 THE WITNESS: But he was walking with us
10 carrying signs.
11 THE COURT: I'm sorry, I thought I saw you
12 with a sign.
13 MR. DANDAR: Would you like to see the
14 picture?
15 THE COURT: Yes. The one out in front of
16 the courthouse or the one in Clearwater?
17 MR. DANDAR: No, just the one in front of
18 the criminal complex after Mr. Minton came out of a
19 hearing. We stood there and had our picture taken.
20 THE WITNESS: Well, now, you know,
21 Counselor, here I'm looking at "Lisa's blood on
22 Scientology's hands. Scientology, Hubbard's Third
23 Reich." And here's a lawyer. I mean, I just don't
24 know. If it were me, when I was a lawyer, I wouldn't
25 have been in that picture. I mean, you know, you have
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
Volume 9, Page 1196
1 a First Amendment right to be -- those are not signs
2 that lawyers ought to be taking pictures with, in my
3 humble opinion.
4 MR. DANDAR: Judge, I am not holding --
5 THE COURT: It will have nothing to do with
6 my decision in this case.
7 MR. DANDAR: All right.
8 THE COURT: I think it was in poor taste.
9 BY MR. DANDAR:
10 Q I am not holding a picket sign, for the record,
11 correct?
12 A Yes. I just told the judge that.
13 Q All right. Now, you recall that there was a
14 great concern by you and Mr. Minton in the year 2000 and
15 2001 to set the record straight in this court as to the
16 involvement of the LMT and Mr. Minton with the wrongful
17 death case?
18 A Yes.
19 Q And Mr. Minton and you both signed affidavits
20 talking about the -- denying that there was any agreement
21 between the estate and Mr. Minton and the LMT?
22 A Yes, Mr. Dandar, we did.
23 Q And isn't it true, Ms. Brooks, that those
24 affidavits were prepared by your attorney, Mr. Merrett?
25 A I'm not sure if they were prepared by him or you.
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
Volume 9, Page 1197
1 We were up in New Hampshire, and you're the one that wanted
2 us to sign them. I know that for sure. Whether you and
3 Mr. --
4 THE WITNESS: Sorry, your Honor.
5 THE COURT: I was just going to say, is the
6 answer you don't know? You don't know who prepared
7 it?
8 THE WITNESS: I don't.
9 MR. DANDAR: Okay.
10 A I mean, I assumed it was you. It may have been
11 him. But it was certainly -- whether it was you or him, it
12 was at your behest. You're the one that was talking to
13 Mr. Minton about the need to sign it. You're the one that
14 got Mr. Minton to sign a false affidavit. You're the one
15 that told him to lie.
16 THE COURT: You're really well past the
17 question. The question is whether or not Mr. Merrett
18 prepared --
19 THE WITNESS: Sorry, your Honor.
20 THE COURT: The answer to that is "I don't
21 know." Then that's where that can stop. I mean, I've
22 heard this other before, so I don't need to hear it
23 again.
24 THE WITNESS: Okay. Sorry, your Honor.
25 BY MR. DANDAR:
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
Volume 9, Page 1198
1 Q Let's jump -- let's jump to August of '99.
2 A Jump back.
3 Q In August of '99, you in your affidavit
4 somewhere -- I just don't have a paragraph in front of