IN THE CIRCUIT COURT FOR PINELLAS COUNTY, FLORIDA
CASE NO. 00-5682-CI-11
DELL LIEBREICH, as Personal
Representative of the ESTATE OF
LISA McPHERSON,
Plaintiff,
vs. VOLUME 10
CHURCH OF SCIENTOLOGY FLAG
SERVICE ORGANIZATION, JANIS
JOHNSON, ALAIN KARTUZINSKI
and DAVID HOUGHTON, D.D.S.,
Defendants.
_______________________________________/
PROCEEDINGS: Defendants' Omnibus Motion for
Terminating Sanctions and Other Relief
DATE: May 16, 2002. Morning Session
PLACE: Courtroom B, Judicial Building
St. Petersburg, Florida
BEFORE: Honorable Susan F. Schaeffer
Circuit Judge
REPORTED BY: Debra S. Turner
Deputy Official Court Reporter
Sixth Judicial Circuit of Florida
_________________________________________________
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
TAMPA AIRPORT MARRIOTT HOTEL (813) 224-9500
ST. PETERSBURG - CLEARWATER (727) 821-3320
Volume 10, Page 1299
APPEARANCES:
MR. KENNAN G. DANDAR
DANDAR & DANDAR
5340 West Kennedy Blvd., Suite 201
Tampa, FL 33602
Attorney for Plaintiff
MR. LUKE CHARLES LIROT
LUKE CHARLES LIROT, PA
112 N East Street, Street, Suite B
Tampa, FL 33602-4108
Attorney for Plaintiff
MR. KENDRICK MOXON
MOXON & KOBRIN
1100 Cleveland Street, Suite 900
Clearwater, FL 33755
Attorney for Church of Scientology Flag Service Organization
MR. LEE FUGATE and
MR. MORRIS WEINBERG, JR. and
ZUCKERMAN, SPAEDER
101 E. Kennedy Blvd, Suite 1200
Tampa, FL 33602-5147
Attorneys for Church of Scientology Flag Service
Organization
MR. ERIC M. LIEBERMAN
RABINOWITZ, BOUDIN, STANDARD
740 Broadway at Astor Place
New York, NY 10003-9518
Attorney for Church of Scientology Flag Service Organization
MICHAEL LEE HERTZBERG, ESQUIRE
740 Broadway, 5th Floor
New York, NY 10003
Attorney for Church of Scientology
Flag Service Organization
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
Volume 10, Page 1300
APPEARANCES: (Continued)
MR. BRUCE HOWIE
5720 Central Avenue
St. Petersburg, Florida.
Attorney for Robert Minton
MR. THOMAS H. MCGOWAN
MCGOWAN & SUAREZ, LLP
150 2nd Avenue North, Suite 870
St. Petersburg, FL 33701-3381
Attorney for Stacy Brooks
ALSO PRESENT:
Ms. Donna West
Mr. Rick Spector
Ms. Lara Cartwright
Ms. Sarah Heller
Mr. Ben Shaw
Mr. Brian Asay
Ms. Patricia Greenway
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
Volume 10, Page 1301
1 (The proceedings began at 9:05 a.m.)
2 THE COURT: Good morning.
3 SEVERAL SPEAKERS: Good morning.
4 THE COURT: Did we all enjoy our day off?
5 MR. LIROT: Yes, we did.
6 THE COURT: Okay. Good. I just had Sue
7 pull up my calendar for the week after next. I don't
8 know. It seems as if we're rolling along rather
9 slowly, so I don't know if we'll finish or not.
10 I have no idea what your schedule looks
11 like. I'll let you take a look. But Monday is
12 Memorial Day. Tuesday, you are scheduled to be with
13 me for the pretrial all day. So we can continue this
14 if we're not done. No sense of a pretrial at this
15 stage. And I'm booked Wednesday, Thursday, and
16 Friday. But I could get a senior judge, probably.
17 So --
18 MR. WEINBERG: Is Friday the 31st?
19 THE COURT: You know, I don't know.
20 MR. WEINBERG: That's the day that I'm
21 leaving with my family to go to Massachusetts for my
22 son's graduation.
23 THE COURT: Okay.
24 MR. WEINBERG: And I get back on -- late on
25 the 3rd.
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
Volume 10, Page 1302
1 THE COURT: Which is a?
2 MR. WEINBERG: Which is a --
3 MR. LIEBERMAN: Monday.
4 THE COURT: Okay. Well, take a look at your
5 calendars to see. You know, as I said, I'd kind of
6 like to get through this so we know what we're doing.
7 And I think that I can get authorization for senior
8 judge time. So Friday will be fine. So I have
9 pretrials, and I kind of like to do those myself. So
10 that will work good. Check then, if you all will, on
11 Wednesday and Thursday.
12 MR. FUGATE: 29 and 30, right, Judge?
13 THE COURT: I'm sorry, I don't have a
14 calendar.
15 MR. FUGATE: It is, that's correct.
16 THE COURT: Okay? So look. If we can do
17 it, I'm going to ask for senior judge coverage so I
18 can get into the mix while there's still some
19 available.
20 MR. DANDAR: Judge, what about this Monday?
21 THE COURT: What is it?
22 MR. DANDAR: Are you still going to
23 Tallahassee this Monday?
24 THE COURT: Yes. I'm afraid I couldn't get
25 out of it.
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
Volume 10, Page 1303
1 MR. DANDAR: And, Judge, Plaintiff objects
2 to cancelling all these discovery depositions of
3 experts while this hearing is going on. We have three
4 attorneys. One of them can be here. They have
5 dozens. They can certainly conduct discovery
6 depositions in preparation for trial. And we just
7 object to this continuation of all these discovery
8 depositions of experts that are being cancelled.
9 THE COURT: Tell me -- give me an idea, like
10 what experts? I've seen -- I read so many, I don't
11 know what's left to be done.
12 MR. DANDAR: Well, when this started, we had
13 two set in San Francisco, the defendants' nephrologist
14 and a --
15 THE COURT: The defendants' nephrologist?
16 MR. DANDAR: -- and a kidney pathologist.
17 THE COURT: Both defendants' experts?
18 MR. DANDAR: Yes, yes.
19 THE COURT: Okay.
20 MR. DANDAR: And we cancelled the
21 plaintiff's vocational rehab expert for today.
22 Cancelled on Monday was Dr. Buchan in Tampa because of
23 the hearing three days ago. Cancelled on Tuesday was
24 another expert of the defense.
25 THE COURT: Could you all --
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
Volume 10, Page 1304
1 MR. FUGATE: That was Dr. Knight, who was
2 actually set for Monday. That was the doctor that
3 broke his leg, which we announced in Court.
4 THE COURT: Right.
5 MR. FUGATE: And the one that's set for
6 Monday is Dr. Wild, who we were bringing here to
7 testify because he's leaving the country. And I think
8 when we understood you were going on Monday, that was
9 cancelled and he's going, I think, to Argentina.
10 So other than that, we can -- we can do
11 whatever, I mean, whatever the Court directs us to do.
12 But the two that I'm aware of, Dr. Knight obviously
13 couldn't come over, couldn't fly. He could be here I
14 think the second week of June. We can reschedule him.
15 And then Dr. Wild, we would have to get a time when he
16 comes back, because we were actually bringing him
17 here, as opposed to California, because we cancelled
18 California.
19 MR. LIROT: I thought it was in New York.
20 MR. WEINBERG: Well, here's the problem.
21 Those depositions, the expert depositions, the medical
22 expert depositions, as Ken knows, I have done all of
23 them. And I'm here, and this -- and we don't have --
24 THE COURT: Are you planning on
25 participating in this hearing?
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
Volume 10, Page 1305
1 MR. WEINBERG: Yes --
2 THE COURT: Obviously, you're
3 participating --
4 MR. WEINBERG: -- I am.
5 THE COURT: -- by your presence, but are you
6 going to be questioning?
7 MR. WEINBERG: I thought I would be
8 participating earlier, but we seem to be going at a
9 slower pace. Yes, I am.
10 THE COURT: Okay. You know, I think we -- I
11 think that's fair. He's counsel that's going to be
12 doing these expert witnesses at trial. I think he has
13 a right to attend the deposition. He says he's here
14 and he's going to participate here. So I think they
15 need to be cancelled. I mean, I'm not happy about it,
16 needless to say, but, you know, he's --
17 I presume you're kind of chief trial
18 counsel, are you not?
19 MR. WEINBERG: Yes, I am.
20 THE COURT: And he's done all the experts as
21 far as I know in all the matters before me. And I
22 would think he would have a right to be there and make
23 sure that -- especially since expert depositions could
24 be introduced at trial in the event the expert is not
25 available. I would think he might want to ask
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
Volume 10, Page 1306
1 questions and he knows --
2 MR. WEINBERG: I've got to prepare them. I
3 mean, we've done these for years. Mr. Dandar has had
4 time to prepare his experts. I have a right to
5 prepare our experts.
6 THE COURT: I agree.
7 So, Counselor, I think that if it's an
8 expert and it's somebody that he plans to put on the
9 stand in the trial, if there is a trial, then he
10 should be permitted to attend the depositions. So I
11 will allow those to be cancelled.
12 If you have some other type witnesses who
13 are, you know, fairly short witnesses that maybe you
14 aren't even going to put on at trial, they're local,
15 they're going to be here, then I say those should go
16 on.
17 MR. WEINBERG: I understand.
18 MR. DANDAR: There's a second matter that I
19 would like to bring up maybe during a break, but I
20 would like to start Ms. Brooks --
21 THE REPORTER: I'm sorry, you would like Ms.
22 Brooks?
23 MR. DANDAR: I would like to start finishing
24 up on cross-examination.
25 THE COURT: Okay. You have some matter you
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
Volume 10, Page 1307
1 want to bring up at a later time?
2 MR. DANDAR: Yes.
3 THE COURT: All right. That's fine.
4 MR. WEINBERG: I'm sure we've got time for
5 that.
6 THE COURT: What's that?
7 MR. WEINBERG: I'm sure we have time for
8 that.
9 THE COURT: Yes, indeed.
10 I can't see Mr. Moxon.
11 MR. MOXON: And I can't see you either, your
12 Honor.
13 THE COURT: That's all right. I don't need
14 to see you.
15 MR. MOXON: Well, I'd like to see you,
16 Judge.
17 THE COURT: Oh, that's nice.
18 MR. MOXON: I don't know how this works.
19 THE COURT: Maybe when he brings in my other
20 chair, it will be better, because I'm sitting way down
21 here in the hole.
22 MR. WEINBERG: Did you find out who took it?
23 THE COURT: Pardon me?
24 MR. WEINBERG: Did you find out who took it?
25 THE COURT: No, I did not. I suspect maybe
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
Volume 10, Page 1308
1 Judge Lenderman, who had to be moved to my courtroom,
2 because that's my courtroom, the big one. This is
3 his. And so he was going to do his trial over there,
4 so I suspect he had his chair and he moved it. And
5 although I -- all right.
6 Continue, Counselor.
7 MR. DANDAR: Thank you.
8 CROSS-EXAMINATION OF STACY BROOKS (RESUMED)
9 BY MR. DANDAR:
10 Q Ms. Brooks, what is your date of birth?
11 A April 8th, 1952.
12 Q And what is Mr. Minton's?
13 A October 3rd, 1946, I believe.
14 Q Now, you've had a chance to review the
15 declarations that we marked as Exhibits 17, I believe,
16 through 29 over the day off we had yesterday?
17 THE WITNESS: Your Honor, I'd like to say
18 something about those.
19 THE COURT: Okay.
20 THE WITNESS: As long as he's --
21 THE COURT: Well, you can at the appropriate
22 time, but, I mean, he asked you first of all -- you
23 need to answer that question -- did you have a chance
24 to review it?
25 A Yes.
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
Volume 10, Page 1309
1 BY MR. DANDAR:
2 Q Okay. And did you find that those declarations
3 were declarations by you made under oath with the penalty
4 of perjury?
5 A I found that I'm not comfortable authenticating
6 these as my declarations, and I would prefer to have signed
7 copies. There were too many errors in these. There were
8 whole sentences that seemed to have been left out, and I
9 would prefer to work with actual copies that I can
10 authenticate of these declarations, please.
11 Q And you haven't done that, correct?
12 A Excuse me?
13 Q You haven't done that over the day off? You
14 haven't looked at your own signed declarations that
15 these --
16 MR. McGOWAN: Objection, your Honor.
17 THE COURT: Wait a minute until he asks his
18 question.
19 BY MR. DANDAR:
20 Q You haven't reviewed your own signed declarations
21 of which these exhibits were copies of?
22 MR. McGOWAN: Objection, your Honor. She
23 just said they're not copies of them. She was given
24 postings off Internet sites to review. She reviewed
25 those, and she can't authenticate them.
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
Volume 10, Page 1310
1 THE COURT: His question was has she
2 reviewed copies of her signed declarations. If she
3 has them, she can answer that question. If she
4 doesn't have them, then the answer is no, she doesn't
5 have them or she does have them and hasn't reviewed
6 them. So your objection is overruled.
7 MR. McGOWAN: Your Honor, he injected into
8 that question a statement that the documents she
9 reviewed are indeed copies of declarations, and she
10 just said they weren't.
11 THE COURT: I did not take it that way. I
12 thought he was talking about copies of signed
13 declarations. These are not signed, so these could be
14 different documents. So your objection is still
15 overruled.
16 MR. McGOWAN: Then there's an improper
17 foundation because --
18 THE COURT: Counselor, overruled. Sit down.
19 BY MR. DANDAR:
20 Q Do you have the original of these declarations?
21 A No.
22 Q Do you have signed copies of these declarations?
23 A No.
24 Q Do you have -- do you know where they are?
25 A I don't.
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
Volume 10, Page 1311
1 Q They're not in Atlanta?
2 A No, Mr. Dandar. Some of these are nine years
3 old. I haven't seen these in many, many years.
4 Q Do you have any way to access the copies of the
5 original declarations that you have signed over the years?
6 A In order to do so, I would have to get the --
7 contact the courts where these were filed and ask for
8 copies from the Court.
9 THE COURT: What we'll do, Counselor, is
10 this. If you want to get those, you get them. She'll
11 have to come back.
12 MR. DANDAR: I'll do that.
13 BY MR. DANDAR:
14 Q But how did they get put up on the Lisa McPherson
15 International Web site that you control?
16 A First of all, I think I clarified that earlier.
17 I don't have anything to do with the -- putting the
18 information up. I'm not really sure what the process is.
19 I believe some of these were taken from other Web sites on
20 the Internet. I'm not sure how they were put up there.
21 Q Who controls the Lisa McPherson Trust
22 International Web site?
23 A Well, there are various people who have various
24 functions with regard to it.
25 Q Who are they?
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
Volume 10, Page 1312
1 A Mark Bunker has put material up in the past,
2 Ingrid Wagner has put material up, Dee Phillips has put
3 material up. I wasn't even aware that many of these
4 declarations were up and still at this moment can't say
5 that they are, as I haven't seen them up on the Web site.
6 Q And those folks who put these up on the Web site,
7 at the time they put them up on the Web site, they were
8 employees of the Lisa McPherson Trust?
9 A If they put them up prior to the dissolution of
10 the corporation, they were.
11 Q All right. And after the dissolution of the Lisa
12 McPherson Trust, Incorporated, which occurred I believe you
13 said in December of 2001, what entity now is in control of
14 the Web site, Lisa McPherson Trust International? What
15 person or entity?
16 THE COURT: You mean there is still a Lisa
17 McPherson Trust International?
18 MR. DANDAR: (Nodded affirmatively.)
19 THE COURT: Oh, okay. I thought --
20 THE WITNESS: No, your Honor. That's the
21 name of the Web site --
22 THE COURT: Oh.
23 THE WITNESS: -- but there is no entity.
24 A I can tell you that I'm still paying a couple of
25 those people, but I am not reviewing what's being put up on
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
Volume 10, Page 1313
1 the Web site.
2 BY MR. DANDAR:
3 Q In order to put something up on the Web site, the
4 person who is doing that has to have codes that are secret
5 to access the Web site, correct?
6 A I don't know, actually.
7 Q All right. Who are the people that still have,
8 as far as you know, that you're still paying, to maintain
9 the Web site?
10 A Mark Bunker.
11 Q Who else? Is that the only person?
12 A Yes.
13 Q All right. And you write him a check on your
14 personal account?
15 A Yes.
16 Q Now, after the dissolution of Lisa McPherson
17 Trust, Incorporated, the Florida corporation, in December
18 of 2001, Jesse Prince was still paid $5,000 a month,
19 correct?
20 A Yes, by me.
21 Q You personally?
22 A Yes.
23 Q Until April 4th of this year, correct?
24 A That's correct.
25 Q All right. And you haven't paid him since,
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
Volume 10, Page 1314
1 correct?
2 A No.
3 Q And what was he doing that you --
4 THE COURT: Well, wait a minute. I don't
5 know what the answer is.
6 MR. DANDAR: I'm sorry.
7 THE COURT: When you say "correct" and she
8 says "no," I don't know if that means "no, that's not
9 correct" or "yes, that is correct."
10 MR. DANDAR: Bad question.
11 THE WITNESS: I'm sorry.
12 THE COURT: That's all right. It's when a
13 lawyer says "correct" or "isn't that true," that is a
14 leading question. You've heard us talk about leading
15 questions. That means it's kind of suggesting the
16 answer.
17 So if the answer is wrong, then that's kind
18 of a "no." If the answer is right, the answer is
19 "yes" when they say "correct" or "isn't that true."
20 So I don't know what she's saying. You'd
21 better fix that.
22 BY MR. DANDAR:
23 Q Why were you paying Jesse Prince --
24 THE COURT: No, I want that question and
25 that answer -- I want to be sure that's the correct
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
Volume 10, Page 1315
1 answer.
2 Madam Court Reporter, go back to that
3 question and answer because I don't know what the
4 answer is.
5 MR. DANDAR: And I don't remember the
6 question.
7 (The reporter read back as follows.
8 Question: All right. And you haven't paid
9 him since, correct? Answer: No.)
10 THE WITNESS: The answer should have been
11 yes, that's correct, I have not.
12 THE COURT: See what I mean?
13 THE WITNESS: Yes, I do, your Honor.
14 THE COURT: Okay.
15 BY MR. DANDAR:
16 Q Now, why were you paying Mr. Prince in January
17 through April 4th of this year?
18 A Because Mr. Prince had no other possible source
19 of income. I felt sorry for him. I felt he needed some
20 help.
21 Q Okay.
22 A I convinced Mr. Minton that we should continue to
23 help Mr. Prince.
24 Q All right. The money you were paying Mr. Prince,
25 was that $5,000 a month?
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
Volume 10, Page 1316
1 A That's correct.
2 Q And was that money coming from Mr. Minton?
3 A Yes.
4 Q All right. So Mr. Minton was giving you money to
5 put in your personal checking account so then you could
6 turn around and pay Mr. Prince out of your personal
7 checking account?
8 A Not only Mr. Prince, but any of the other
9 expenses that were still occurring as a result of what
10 needed to be done to wind down the Lisa McPherson Trust.
11 Q That included paying Mark Bunker?
12 A Yes.
13 Q That included paying for the Web site?
14 A Paying for the Web site?
15 Q Yes. You have to pay a monthly fee to the
16 Internet service provider?
17 A I haven't done that.
18 Q All right. Does Mark Bunker do that?
19 A Not as far as I know.
20 Q Who does?
21 A I don't know.
22 Q All right. Why is it that Mr. Minton can't pay
23 these people to wind down the Lisa McPherson Trust out of
24 his own checking account?
25 A He could, but he prefers that I deal with the
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
Volume 10, Page 1317
1 day-to-day details of doing it. It's been my job to do
2 that for some time.
3 Q Does he give you a check every month to cover
4 these expenses, or does he just -- did he give you a lump
5 sum?
6 A He doesn't give me a check every month.
7 Q So how much did he give you to cover these
8 expenses?
9 A I believe about $100,000.
10 Q And when did that occur?
11 A Sometime in the fall.
12 Q Of 2001?
13 A Yes.
14 Q Was that written on his personal check, or was it
15 an anonymous check from a Swiss bank?
16 A I believe it was a personal check.
17 Q Did the Lisa McPherson Trust accept donations in
18 the fall of 2001 --
19 A No.
20 Q -- from third parties?
21 A No.
22 Q Can you sit here today and recall any declaration
23 you ever filed in a court case that you actually lied under
24 oath?
25 A No.
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
Volume 10, Page 1318
1 Q When you put postings on the Internet, are those
2 postings truthful, or are they -- can they contain lies
3 made by you?
4 A I don't intentionally lie.
5 Q Not even in a posting, correct, to the Internet?
6 A Correct.
7 Q I didn't hear you.
8 A Okay. I said "correct."
9 Q Okay. Now, your prior testimony that started all
10 this recantation is that you and Bob Minton decided that
11 both of you needed to file recantation affidavits following
12 the statements made by either Mr. Rinder or Mr. Rosen to,
13 quote, set the record straight, close quote. Is that
14 right?
15 A I would say that it -- the process began earlier
16 than that.
17 Q When?
18 A When Mr. Minton decided that he wasn't willing
19 any longer to cover for you anymore for the wrongful death.
20 Q All right. What do you mean by cover for me in
21 the death case? What do you mean by that?
22 MR. McGOWAN: Your Honor, I believe we've
23 gone over this. This is asked and answered.
24 THE COURT: I think we have, haven't we?
25 MR. DANDAR: No. This is the first time I
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
Volume 10, Page 1319
1 heard it started before they met Mr. Rosen and
2 Mr. Rinder.
3 THE COURT: That's true.
4 A I think that it's not the first time. I think I
5 testified earlier --
6 THE COURT: It just happens I overruled the
7 counsel's objection, so we'll have to have it again.
8 True or not?
9 You have to understand, my memory is
10 stretched here because of the number of days. And,
11 you know, truthfully, while this may be y'all's
12 primary case and you may be dwelling on it every day,
13 I have got lots of cases. And consequently, my mind
14 goes from this case to many, many other cases. So
15 should I think that something has not been covered and
16 it has, it's not that I'm trying to drag this out,
17 trust me. If I can't remember it, I can't remember
18 it, so . . .
19 BY MR. DANDAR:
20 Q So when did you and Mr. Minton get together and
21 decide not to cover for Ken Dandar anymore?
22 A Well, as I testified earlier, Mr. Minton was
23 becoming increasingly concerned about the legal troubles
24 that you were getting him into. And by -- by the time you
25 came up to ask him, beg him, for more money in February, he
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
Volume 10, Page 1320
1 was extremely upset with you and the position that you had
2 put him in and told you so and told you that he didn't want
3 to have anything more to do with the wrongful death case.
4 And you begged him and pleaded with him, and he then gave
5 you more money for the case.
6 MR. DANDAR: I move to strike all this as
7 non-responsive.
8 BY MR. DANDAR:
9 Q My question is simple. When did you and
10 Mr. Minton decide not to cover for Ken Dandar anymore in
11 the wrongful death case?
12 A I was answering that.
13 Q I think the question is --
14 THE COURT: Well, that does require a date,
15 not all the long explanation.
16 BY MR. DANDAR:
17 Q The date. Is it February of 2002?
18 THE COURT: Is that when Mr. Dandar came up
19 there? Is that the time --
20 THE WITNESS: I would say --
21 THE COURT: -- that you were explaining --
22 THE WITNESS: I would say right after that.
23 THE COURT: I've forgotten. Was that in
24 February?
25 THE WITNESS: In the beginning of March.
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
Volume 10, Page 1321
1 THE COURT: Okay. And that was around the
2 time frame when you all decided this --
3 THE WITNESS: Yes.
4 THE COURT: Okay.
5 BY MR. DANDAR:
6 Q So up until the first week of March, 2002, you
7 and Mr. Minton had continued to agree to cover for Ken
8 Dandar in the wrongful death case?
9 A No.
10 Q All right. So my question is, When did you
11 first, both of you, decide not to cover for Ken Dandar in
12 the wrongful death case?
13 THE COURT: She just answered that. Oh.
14 But your question was up till then.
15 MR. DANDAR: I thought she said the first
16 week of March. But I said, "That's the first time?"
17 And she said, "No."
18 BY MR. DANDAR:
19 Q So my question is, When was the first time?
20 A Well, when I decided and when he decided are two
21 different dates.
22 Q All right.
23 A I had decided quite some time earlier than that,
24 Mr. Dandar.
25 Q When?
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
Volume 10, Page 1322
1 A I would say the decision was really made in
2 August of 2001.
3 Q By you?
4 A Yes.
5 Q All right. What were you covering for Ken Dandar
6 on the wrongful death case that you decided not to cover
7 anymore in August of 2001?
8 A Well, I was attempting to keep this case on --
9 keep this case going by -- I believe I told you this
10 earlier -- especially in that August 2001 deposition that
11 you attended in which your trial consultant Dr. Garko
12 advised me that Mr. --
13 MR. DANDAR: Hearsay, hearsay.
14 THE COURT: I'm sorry, Counselor, you asked
15 the question.
16 MR. DANDAR: No, I asked the question of
17 what it was that she decided not to cover.
18 THE WITNESS: Well --
19 THE COURT: I'm going to let her respond,
20 and if it includes hearsay, that's what it does.
21 MR. DANDAR: It's also work product.
22 THE COURT: I would suspect there's been a
23 lot of work product revealed here. I mean, you asked
24 the question. I'm going to let her finish answering.
25 A It was in the August 2001 deposition that
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
Volume 10, Page 1323
1 Dr. Garko turned to me at a break and told me Mr. Minton
2 was about to go to jail on orders of Judge Baird and that
3 he'd better answer all the questions that he was being
4 ordered to answer, at which point I realized that Dr. Garko
5 didn't understand what was being done and that Mr. Minton
6 was testifying the way he was in depositions at your
7 request and that Dr. Garko didn't know that. And that made
8 me extremely upset.
9 THE COURT: Are we talking about the
10 deposition where the Fifth Amendment was taken?
11 THE WITNESS: No. This is my deposition,
12 your Honor --
13 THE COURT: Oh.
14 THE WITNESS: -- on August 15th, 2001. It
15 was a very major turning point for me, because in that
16 same deposition, Dr. Garko told me that Mr. Minton was
17 about to go to jail and Judge Beach told me that I was
18 about to go to jail.
19 THE COURT: Well, I guess that I don't
20 understand, because I really don't know what went on
21 in front of Judge Baird. But was Mr. Minton about to
22 go to jail in front of Judge Baird because Mr. Minton
23 had claimed the Fifth or because Mr. Minton wasn't
24 answering the questions or what was --
25 THE WITNESS: Because Mr. Minton was trying
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
Volume 10, Page 1324
1 to -- well, basically because Mr. Minton was trying to
2 avoid going in the deposition at all so that he could
3 avoid answering the questions, which he didn't want to
4 answer because --
5 THE COURT: Well, your -- I'm sorry, I don't
6 mean to interrupt you, but I thought you had said
7 Dr. Garko had said if Mr. Minton doesn't start
8 answering the questions, and that's what my question
9 is. What questions? The only ones I recall that he
10 didn't answer were the ones where he took the Fifth.
11 THE WITNESS: Right. But --
12 THE COURT: Was there a deposition he
13 missed? I mean --
14 THE WITNESS: Yes.
15 THE COURT: Okay.
16 BY MR. DANDAR:
17 Q Are you saying, Ms. Brooks, that Mr. Minton
18 violated Judge Baird's order to show up for deposition in
19 the summer of 2001 because I told him not to show up?
20 A No, I'm not saying that.
21 Q And isn't that the only reason that Judge Baird
22 issued an order to show cause is because Mr. Minton
23 willfully refused to come to deposition in Clearwater in
24 the summer of 2001, as he was ordered to appear on a
25 certain date?
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
Volume 10, Page 1325
1 MR. McGOWAN: Objection, your Honor. She's
2 having to testify to legal cause as to why Judge Baird
3 issued an order.
4 THE COURT: Well, she can testify if she
5 knows or if she thinks she knows. I mean, I don't
6 know myself, so . . .
7 A I believe that is what was happening. The reason
8 Mr. -- one of the reasons Mr. Minton was so concerned about
9 going into any deposition at all, either in Judge
10 Schaeffer's court or Judge Baird's court, was because of
11 the things that you wanted him to cover up for you under
12 oath in depositions.
13 BY MR. DANDAR:
14 Q Okay. So the question: What are those things
15 that I wanted him to cover up?
16 A I believe those have been covered.
17 Q Are you talking about this one check in May of
18 2000? Is that one of them?
19 A You were asking him to give a false answer to the
20 amount of money that he had given to the case.
21 Q Is that the one check in May of 2000?
22 A Yes, $500,000.
23 Q Okay. What else did I ask him to cover up?
24 A About the meeting that you told him -- that had
25 never occurred, that you in deposition actually elicited
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
Volume 10, Page 1326
1 perjury from him about, and about the agreement.
2 Q The meeting that I and -- as you said on Tuesday,
3 Dr. Garko also denied Mr. Minton was ever at that meeting?
4 A I didn't say that.
5 Q Didn't you have a conversation with Dr. Garko in
6 April of 2002 when he told you at your beach hotel in
7 Clearwater that Mr. Minton was never at a meeting where
8 David Miscavige was discussed as being added on as a party?
9 A He said he didn't remember it, and later he said
10 he did.
11 Q When did he tell you he remembered?
12 A He told Mr. Minton later.
13 Q When?
14 A Several days later.
15 Q Where?
16 A On the telephone.
17 Q Pardon me?
18 A On the telephone.
19 Q And where were you and Mr. Minton staying at that
20 time?
21 A I don't recall.
22 Q Were you staying on Clearwater Beach?
23 A I don't recall.
24 Q Was this call made by Dr. Garko to Mr. Minton?
25 A Perhaps.
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
Volume 10, Page 1327
1 Q Were you in a hotel room when the call was
2 received?
3 A I don't recall. I believe it was on a cell
4 phone.
5 Q On Mr. Minton's cell phone or yours?
6 A Mr. Minton's, I believe.
7 Q Okay. Were you in Clearwater at the time?
8 A Yes.
9 Q And you remember the date?
10 A I don't.
11 Q Okay. Was it in April of 2002?
12 THE COURT: Counsel, she said, "I don't know
13 what the date of the meeting was where Dr. Garko went
14 to the hotel." She said it was a few days after that.
15 MR. DANDAR: Okay.
16 THE COURT: So if we know when that was, a
17 few days after that.
18 BY MR. DANDAR:
19 Q When was the meeting with Dr. Garko at your beach
20 hotel?
21 A Sunday -- whatever the Sunday was after the
22 Tuesday, April 9th, hearing.
23 Q Well, that Sunday was April 14th.
24 A Okay.
25 Q That's the same Sunday --
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
Volume 10, Page 1328
1 A Jesse Prince came later.
2 Q Jesse Prince came later.
3 A With Mr. Minton, yes, that's right, the very same
4 day.
5 Q Now, who set up this meeting between you, Bob
6 Minton, and Dr. Garko?
7 A Dr. Garko wanted to come over and see us. He was
8 very upset with you. You told him you weren't going to pay
9 him.
10 THE COURT: You're past the question, which
11 was who set it up. So if we're going to move this
12 along -- if you have to explain it, then explain it.
13 But when it's something like who set it up, you just
14 need to --
15 THE WITNESS: Sorry, your Honor.
16 THE COURT: -- answer the --
17 THE WITNESS: He's being extremely hostile
18 to me.
19 THE COURT: If he is hostile to you, I'll
20 tell you, this is very mild compared to what I
21 consider hostile cross-examination.
22 BY MR. DANDAR:
23 Q So Dr. Garko called Bob Minton and said, "I want
24 to come over and talk to you." Is that your recollection?
25 A That's my recollection.
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
Volume 10, Page 1329
1 Q Okay. Was this in the morning, the afternoon, or
2 the evening of Sunday, April 14th, 2002?
3 A Afternoon.
4 Q Before Jesse Prince arrived?
5 A Yes.
6 Q Up till the time that Jesse Prince arrived on
7 April 14th -- that was in the evening, correct?
8 A Correct.
9 Q Up until that time, you and Bob Minton thought
10 that Jesse Prince was agreeing with what Bob Minton was
11 doing in reference to testifying against Ken Dandar. Is
12 that right?
13 A We were beginning to have some doubt.
14 Q What's -- when was the first time you had some
15 doubt about Jesse Prince's alliance or allegiance to Bob
16 Minton?
17 A You mean -- you're talking about in this last
18 little bit of time?
19 Q Yes, before April 14th, 2002.
20 A You mean in his whole life? Or do you mean just
21 this last little meltdown that happened?
22 Q The last little meltdown.
23 A Well, two things happened that caused me to have
24 some doubt.
25 Q Okay. Tell me what those are.
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
Volume 10, Page 1330
1 A When was I at -- Jesse had expressed to me some
2 concern that he needed counsel in order to move forward
3 with this. And I had told him that he -- that I would be
4 willing to cover the costs for him if he wanted to speak to
5 my attorney, Tom McGowan, about this.
6 Q Okay. When was that?
7 A Probably Tuesday or Wednesday or maybe -- yes,
8 when I spoke to him after the Tuesday hearing day. It was
9 either Wednesday or Thursday.
10 Q So April 10th or 11th.
11 A If that's Wednesday or Thursday.
12 Q Yes. The 9th was Tuesday.
13 A April 10th or 11th.
14 Q Okay. And did he say, "Okay, let me talk --"
15 A He said, "Great, yes, I appreciate that."
16 Q Did he talk to Tom McGowan?
17 A He went and talked to him on Friday morning, as I
18 understood.
19 Q Okay. And did Tom McGowan agree to represent him
20 then?
21 A No. I asked Jesse how it went. Jesse said it
22 went great. Then I had occasion to talk to Tom McGowan,
23 and Tom McGowan --
24 MR. McGOWAN: Judge, privileged.
25 THE COURT: Okay. Sustained.
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
Volume 10, Page 1331
1 BY MR. DANDAR:
2 Q Okay.
3 A Well, from what Tom McGowan told me, I had reason
4 to think --
5 THE COURT: If your lawyer said privilege --
6 Now if she wants to waive it, she can. So,
7 I mean --
8 THE WITNESS: Okay. So I can't say anything
9 about it at all?
10 MR. McGOWAN: It's your privilege to waive.
11 MR. DANDAR: You can waive it if you want
12 to.
13 THE WITNESS: I don't want to waive my
14 privilege.
15 BY MR. DANDAR:
16 Q Okay. So as a result of that conversation,
17 whatever it might be, you started to think, "Gee, Jesse
18 Prince isn't agreeing with our position"?
19 A Well, I started to think that Jesse was doing
20 something other than what he was telling me.
21 Q What -- what was he telling you?
22 A He was telling me that he was really excited
23 about getting out of this whole sordid business, that he
24 didn't want to have anything to do with it anymore, but he
25 was very glad that Bob and I were giving him an opportunity
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
Volume 10, Page 1332
1 to extricate himself from this and from his involvement in
2 this.
3 Q And how is it that what you and Bob were doing
4 was going to get Jesse out of his involvement in something?
5 A Now, I for sure testified about this whatever day
6 was the last day I testified. But I'll testify again.
7 Q No. Is it the same answer?
8 THE COURT: What was it?
9 MR. DANDAR: I'd have to go look it up. I
10 don't remember.
11 THE COURT: Okay.
12 BY MR. DANDAR:
13 Q As quickly as you can, what was the reason why he
14 wanted to get out and what was he wanting to get out of?
15 A Well, now, that's not what you just asked me.
16 You just asked me why we wanted to help him. Which do you
17 want me to answer?
18 Q Answer that one.
19 A Which one?
20 THE COURT: Ask a question.
21 MR. DANDAR: Let me start over again.
22 BY MR. DANDAR:
23 Q Jesse -- you said Jesse Prince was all excited
24 because you and Bob Minton were testifying against Ken
25 Dandar. Is that your testimony?
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
Volume 10, Page 1333
1 A That's not what I said at all, Mr. Dandar.
2 Q All right. Jesse Prince was all excited about
3 what?
4 A Being able to extricate himself from the mess
5 he'd gotten himself into.
6 Q Okay. What was the mess that he had gotten
7 himself into?
8 A Do you want me to tell you my opinion?
9 Q No. I want you to tell me what Jesse told you.
10 A I just did. That's what Jesse said.
11 THE COURT: He said he wanted to get out of
12 the mess he'd gotten himself into?
13 THE WITNESS: He was very glad to be able to
14 get himself extricated out of this mess, the same as
15 we were going to extricate ourselves from it.
16 THE COURT: Is the mess -- maybe I'm
17 confused. Is the mess this case? Or is the mess this
18 whole scenario of testifying in cases and --
19 THE WITNESS: The whole scenario of
20 testifying.
21 THE COURT: And giving affidavits --
22 THE WITNESS: Yes.
23 THE COURT: -- in cases and being paid for
24 being a consultant expert slash -- consultant slash
25 expert?
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
Volume 10, Page 1334
1 THE WITNESS: Yes.
2 THE COURT: The whole thing, not just this
3 case?
4 THE WITNESS: Correct.
5 THE COURT: This was one of several?
6 THE WITNESS: Yes.
7 THE COURT: Okay.
8 BY MR. DANDAR:
9 Q Well, certainly Jesse Prince didn't say he was
10 excited to get out of the Lisa McPherson wrongful death
11 case, did he?
12 A Yes, he did.
13 Q He was already out of the Lisa McPherson wrongful
14 death case, wasn't he?
15 THE COURT: She may not know that, whether
16 he was or wasn't. Frankly, I'm not sure.
17 BY MR. DANDAR:
18 Q You ordered -- you ordered him to withdraw as an
19 expert, you say, in August of 2001.
20 A That's correct. However, after that you had him
21 sign an affidavit and filed the whole severe sanctions
22 motion, which dragged him right back into the thing. And
23 he was very upset about that, and he was very, very much
24 looking forward to getting out of it. That's what he told
25 us.
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
Volume 10, Page 1335
1 Q Okay.
2 A I understand that it's not what he's been telling
3 you, Mr. Dandar, but that is what he told us. He tends to
4 tell people what they want to hear.
5 Q So Jesse Prince, since you've known him since
6 1976, is a habitual liar? Is that what you're saying?
7 A I am saying that I have discovered since he was
8 arrested for drugs in 2000 -- in August 2000 that he tends
9 to lie a lot. He has lied to me, he's lied to Mr. Minton,
10 he's lied to you.
11 Q Are you sure he was arrested for drugs in August
12 of 2000?
13 A Whenever he was arrested for drugs.
14 Q Okay. What was the other reason -- you mentioned
15 two. What was the other reason that Jesse Prince -- that
16 you thought Jesse Prince was not going to follow down the
17 road with you and Bob Minton?
18 A The other reason that I thought that Jesse Prince
19 was lying to me about what he's doing is that he lied to me
20 about what he was doing on Saturday, August -- April 13th.
21 Q Because when you called his house, he wasn't
22 there and the kids told you later that he was there, or
23 something like that?
24 A No.
25 THE COURT: She did -- whatever it was. I
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
Volume 10, Page 1336
1 remember she testified.
2 BY MR. DANDAR:
3 Q That had nothing to do with the case, though,
4 right? I mean, he -- his kid said he wasn't home, and you
5 found out he was home. Is that -- am I right?
6 THE COURT: Whatever she said, she said.
7 MR. DANDAR: All right.
8 THE COURT: It hasn't changed, whatever it
9 was.
10 THE WITNESS: No.
11 THE COURT: All right.
12 MR. DANDAR: Okay.
13 BY MR. DANDAR:
14 Q Now --
15 THE COURT: My memory was good if it was
16 just a few days ago. It's not too good if it was more
17 than a few days ago.
18 BY MR. DANDAR:
19 Q Now, at the time you contacted Mr. Rinder -- I
20 think you said in February of this year. Is that right?
21 A I don't believe I said that.
22 Q All right. When did you first contact Mr. Rinder
23 to start talking to him about you and Bob Minton wanting to
24 negotiate a settlement?
25 A Well, Mr. Howie contacted Mr. Pope in January, I
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
Volume 10, Page 1337
1 believe, but I believe Mr. Minton first looked to
2 Mr. Rinder sometime in March.
3 Q Was that over the phone?
4 A Yes.
5 Q Okay. And the meeting with Rinder and Rosen and
6 Yingling in New York City on March 28th, that wasn't the
7 first meeting, was it, with Rosen and Rinder in person?
8 A Yes.
9 Q Wasn't there a meeting a week before that?
10 A No.
11 Q Do you recall calling Dr. Garko on his cell phone
12 while he and I were before Judge Schaeffer on another case
13 before March 28th?
14 A No, but perhaps you could refresh my memory.
15 Q If you don't remember, that's fine. Now, at the
16 time that you and Mr. Minton and Mr. Jonas's attorney met
17 with Mr. Rosen, Mr. Rinder, and Ms. Yingling in New York
18 City, the only one that was facing contempt charges before
19 Judge Schaeffer and Judge Baird was Robert Minton, correct?
20 A Yes.
21 Q No one has filed any motion for contempt or order
22 to show cause against you in any case. Isn't that correct?
23 A That's -- I think there was one filed in the
24 Penick case, if I'm not mistaken, but not in this case.
25 Q If there was one, that had to do with violating
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
Volume 10, Page 1338
1 an injunction, right?
2 A Right.
3 Q Now, in the motion to add on David Miscavige and
4 RTC and CSI that was filed by the estate in August -- or,
5 September of 99, you signed an affidavit which incorporated
6 prior affidavits that you had filed in other cases. Do you
7 remember that?
8 A I believe Judge Schaeffer showed me an affidavit
9 the other day.
10 Q And those affidavits under oath by you spoke of
11 the power of David Miscavige as the captain of the Sea Org.
12 Do you recall that?
13 A I'd like to see it.
14 MR. McGOWAN: They speak for themselves, and
15 this has been asked and answered.
16 THE COURT: Yes. If she's --
17 MR. DANDAR: I'm trying to lay a foundation.
18 THE COURT: If she says those are true, they
19 speak for themselves. Whatever she said, she said, if
20 they're true.
21 BY MR. DANDAR:
22 Q All right. Did you review the brand-new 1999
23 affidavit of your husband at the time, Robert Vaughn Young,
24 that was filed with the motion to add on parties in the
25 wrongful death case?
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
Volume 10, Page 1339
1 A If I did, I don't recall.
2 MR. DANDAR: Okay. Judge, I wanted them to
3 make a copy before I asked about this, but they said
4 the copier is too noisy. Can we have this copied
5 before I ask her questions about it?
6 THE COURT: Yes.
7 THE WITNESS: Can we take a little break?
8 THE COURT: Right now?
9 THE WITNESS: Just a few minutes.
10 THE COURT: Okay. Well, the witness needs a
11 break, so we're going to take a break. It's a quarter
12 to 10:00. It's early to take our break, but if we're
13 going to take one, let's take it. We'll be in recess
14 until 10:00. This will be our morning break a little
15 early.
16 (Break taken at 9:45 a.m. until 10 p.m.)
17 MR. McGOWAN: Your Honor, may we approach
18 for a moment?
19 THE COURT: Yes.
20 MR. McGOWAN: Thank you.
21 (Off-the record discussion held.)
22 THE COURT: Do you want this on the record?
23 MR. McGOWAN: Yes.
24 THE COURT: Madam Court Reporter.
25 (Off-the record discussion held.)
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
Volume 10, Page 1340
1 THE COURT: Sit down.
2 MR. McGOWAN: Your Honor, I want some
3 guidance from the Court on objecting to
4 asked-and-answered questions because I know sometimes
5 they're overruled and sometimes they're sustained.
6 And I understand, you know, that there's been many
7 days of testimony. And I don't want to make
8 unnecessary objections, but if I make them, it's
9 because I believe it's been --
10 THE COURT: You may feel free to make any
11 one you want. As I said, if I overrule it, it's
12 because I don't remember it.
13 MR. McGOWAN: That's fine. I just didn't
14 want to --
15 THE COURT: It doesn't mean that I'm, you
16 know, suggesting -- you might remember it, but if I
17 don't remember it, I'll overrule it.
18 MR. McGOWAN: That's fine.
19 THE COURT: If I do remember it, believe me,
20 I'll sustain it.
21 MR. McGOWAN: Okay. Thank you, your Honor.
22 THE COURT: So feel free to make them.
23 And trust me, we're not going to go back
24 through all these meetings, because she did testify
25 about those.
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
Volume 10, Page 1341
1 BY MR. DANDAR:
2 Q Okay. What's marked as Exhibit 33 by the clerk
3 is now in front of you, and it's your ex-husband's
4 declaration, Robert Vaughn Young, from December 26, 1999.
5 Is that correct?
6 A It seems to be, yes.
7 Q Okay. And in this declaration on --
8 (A cell phone sounded.)
9 THE COURT: Well, it's nice to know that
10 both sides can be guilty of inappropriateness in the
11 courtroom.
12 BY MR. DANDAR:
13 Q Turn to paragraph 37.
14 THE COURT: What page, Counselor?
15 MR. DANDAR: Page 20, paragraph 37, of the
16 declaration.
17 BY MR. DANDAR:
18 Q And Vaughn is talking about reviewing Jesse
19 Prince's affidavit that was filed also to add on additional
20 parties at this time and states, quote: "Declaration is
21 either true by my personal knowledge or fully consistent
22 with what I know about this organization and its policies
23 and its history."
24 Do you have any factual basis to tell us today
25 that what your -- Vaughn Young said then was false?
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
Volume 10, Page 1342
1 A I can't really speak for Vaughn Young.
2 Q Okay.
3 A I didn't even -- I don't recall ever seeing this
4 affidavit prior to now.
5 Q Okay. Paragraph 38, Vaughn Young states under
6 oath that Lisa McPherson was, quote, "Held against her will
7 with the knowledge and consent and direct orders of
8 Scientology executives that would come directly from the
9 Religious Technology Center," close quote. Do you have any
10 facts today that would indicate that that statement by
11 Vaughn Young is false?
12 A As I said, I can't speak for Vaughn Young.
13 Q Okay. On page 21, at the top of the page is the
14 continuation of the paragraph 38, where Vaughn Young states
15 that, quote: "The Scientology maxim is the greatest good
16 for the greatest number. When it comes to protecting the
17 organization itself, that determines the morality of the
18 act. It is the end justifies the means. That is why she
19 was isolated. That is why there are records missing. The
20 organization and its command must be protected at all
21 costs. That is why Lisa McPherson died."
22 Do you have any facts today that would indicate
23 that those statements made by Vaughn Young under oath on
24 October 6th, 1999, are false?
25 A I know he couldn't know that they were true.
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
Volume 10, Page 1343
1 THE COURT: That wasn't the question.
2 You'll answer that question.
3 BY MR. DANDAR:
4 Q Do you have any facts as you sit here today to
5 indicate that the statements made that I just read are
6 false?
7 A Again, as I said, I can't speak for Vaughn Young.
8 Q Okay. He also in this affidavit talks about the
9 corporate lines of Scientology being a sham, all
10 controlled -- all corporations of Scientology being
11 controlled by one person, Mr. Miscavige, since 1982. Do
12 you have any facts today that would indicate that that
13 statement by Vaughn Young under oath was false?
14 A I can't speak for Vaughn Young.
15 THE COURT: Maybe saying that some other
16 different way, is this -- I mean, in your own
17 experience, having been in the Church, do you agree
18 that that's true?
19 THE WITNESS: Your Honor, I think I've
20 testified a number of times previously that Vaughn
21 Young and I worked together as partners, as paid
22 witnesses --
23 THE COURT: I'm sorry, I wasn't clear. The
24 hierarchy is such that David Miscavige would control
25 all of Scientology, whatever that question was. In
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
Volume 10, Page 1344
1 other words, would you believe that to be true?
2 THE WITNESS: I believe that Miscavige has
3 an enormous amount of control in Scientology -- as you
4 said the other day, like the Pope.
5 THE COURT: By the way, I have to be on a
6 conference call with a couple of justices at 12:30, so
7 my lunch break is going to probably be here
8 accordingly. And I don't know how long it's going to
9 go on. So I'll probably break around 12:30 for lunch.
10 MR. DANDAR: Judge, in that same package on
11 the notice of filing additional affidavits that were
12 delivered to you yesterday at your request, there is
13 an affidavit in there of Stacy Brooks. And I'm pretty
14 sure it was marked as an exhibit.
15 THE COURT: Did I request this whole thing?
16 I mean, I'm happy to have it, but --
17 MR. DANDAR: Yes, you did.
18 THE COURT: Okay. Whenever I requested it,
19 I requested it in open court, right?
20 MR. DANDAR: Yes.
21 THE COURT: Okay. I didn't want anybody to
22 think I was calling him on the telephone to make the
23 request.
24 MR. DANDAR: If I can see it, I could
25 maybe --
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
Volume 10, Page 1345
1 MR. FUGATE: Judge, what he did, I think --
2 Mr. Lirot introduced these affidavits, and they were
3 connected to or attached to the motion. And he said,
4 "I would like to have the motion made a part of that
5 exhibit," which I take it has been done.
6 THE COURT: I don't know if it has or not,
7 but did he deliver me a copy of the motion and the
8 attachment, what all went with the motion. And I
9 assume that I asked for it.
10 MR. FUGATE: You did, Judge. I just want to
11 make sure that we're --
12 MR. DANDAR: Let me find it. It's the one
13 that starts off looking like this. And it's dated --
14 it's dated -- it's dated March 13th, 1997, at Seattle,
15 Washington, by Stacy Young.
16 THE WITNESS: He showed me that yesterday,
17 your Honor, I believe.
18 THE COURT: Nothing -- well, I don't know
19 about anybody showing anything yesterday --
20 THE WITNESS: I mean day before, day before
21 yesterday.
22 BY MR. DANDAR:
23 Q Okay. And since you previously testified that
24 all of your declarations filed at any time anywhere are
25 accurate, this one from the Wollersheim case --
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
Volume 10, Page 1346
1 A I didn't say they were accurate. I said they
2 were true.
3 Q Okay. This one from the Wollersheim case of
4 paragraph 9 --
5 A What is this?
6 Q That's the filing that we made.
7 MR. WEINBERG: Could we just possibly for
8 the record note exactly what --
9 MR. DANDAR: It's the March 13th, 1997,
10 Wollersheim affidavit declaration filed by Stacy
11 Brooks in the Wollersheim case, which is part of the
12 plaintiff's notice of filing additional affidavits and
13 other documents in support of plaintiff's motion to
14 add parties --
15 THE COURT: In this case.
16 MR. DANDAR: -- in this case.
17 THE COURT: And as part of that, her
18 affidavit in the other case is attached.
19 MR. WEINBERG: I understand. It was
20 attached to her affidavit in this case --
21 THE COURT: Yes.
22 MR. WEINBERG: -- this and one other
23 affidavit. Right?
24 MR. DANDAR: It's Exhibit 4 to that filing,
25 which is dated October 7th, 1999, and Exhibit --
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
Volume 10, Page 1347
1 THE COURT: I've got notes on that. You
2 know, I read these things and make notes. I don't
3 want either of you looking at my notes. So if I've
4 got notes on it, give it back to me.
5 MR. DANDAR: Oops. There's no notes on this
6 one --
7 THE COURT: All right.
8 MR. DANDAR: -- not on this page, anyway.
9 THE COURT: I didn't get to it entirely. So
10 maybe if that's at the end, I didn't get to it.
11 MR. DANDAR: Okay. I'm sorry, paragraph 28
12 on page 9.
13 MR. FUGATE: I'm sorry. Mr. Dandar?
14 MR. DANDAR: Paragraph 28 on page 9.
15 MR. WEINBERG: Do you mind if I walk over
16 there?
17 THE COURT: No, I sure don't. You all may
18 feel free to move about the courtroom.
19 BY MR. DANDAR:
20 Q Can you read that, please, of your declaration.
21 MR. WEINBERG: Read it to herself or out
22 loud?
23 MR. DANDAR: Out loud.
24 A Which paragraph?
25 BY MR. DANDAR:
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
Volume 10, Page 1348
1 Q 28.
2 A "I can state from personal knowledge from my
3 observation in Scientology that all Scientology
4 corporations are a sham and that David Miscavige and his
5 key aides can and do control every aspect of every
6 Scientology corporation and can at any time directly take
7 over and seize all practical control of any and all
8 Scientology corporations."
9 Q Okay. Thank you.
10 MR. FUGATE: Is there a question there?
11 BY MR. DANDAR:
12 Q That statement in your declaration is truthful,
13 correct?
14 MR. FUGATE: Your Honor, I object to that.
15 She's already testified it wasn't of her own personal
16 knowledge on Tuesday.
17 THE COURT: Overruled.
18 A It was truthful, but it was embellished.
19 BY MR. DANDAR:
20 Q That was based upon your personal knowledge as it
21 states in paragraph 28, correct?
22 A Yes, but I think I -- you could say I exaggerated
23 my personal knowledge.
24 Q So does that make it a lie?
25 A No.
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
Volume 10, Page 1349
1 Q Thank you. Let me show you what we'll have
2 marked as our next exhibit entitled "Integrity of Source."
3 34.
4 Exhibit 34 entitled the Integrity of Source, is
5 that a document, as far as you know, published by the
6 Church of Scientology International?
7 A Well, either -- well, I don't know if it was
8 published by the Church of Scientology International, but I
9 have seen it before.
10 Q The document actually states at the bottom, it's
11 published by the Watchdog Committee for the Church of
12 Scientology International, correct?
13 A Well, it says CSI colon WDC colon GAL.
14 Q No, above that.
15 A But it usually has a heading on the document, and
16 that's not here for some reason.
17 Q When you were in Scientology working --
18 A It's not dated. I don't believe this is an
19 accurate copy of this. There's no date.
20 Q Okay. So there should be a date on there?
21 A In my experience.
22 Q Do you have any -- any facts as you sit here
23 today that the second paragraph, which states, quote, "No
24 one except RLH may cancel --"
25 MR. WEINBERG: I'm going to object.
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
Volume 10, Page 1350
1 THE COURT: It's RH.
2 MR. DANDAR: What did I say?
3 THE COURT: RLH.
4 MR. DANDAR: Oh, my goodness. Sorry.
5 MR. WEINBERG: I have an objection. My
6 objection is, if she can't authenticate this, I don't
7 think Mr. Dandar should be reading from this document.
8 It's not in evidence. He showed it to her. She said
9 she can't authenticate it, doesn't have the dates on
10 it, doesn't have the normal headings on it.
11 THE COURT: Since he can't introduce it, I
12 think he can read from it and ask her whether that
13 statement is accurate or not. In other words, he can
14 ask her anything and ask her if it's accurate or not.
15 He can't assume from that that it comes from some
16 edict from the Watchdog Committee because by this
17 time --
18 MR. WEINBERG: He can ask -- so what
19 you're -- he can formulate a question from text, but
20 not suggest somehow that the text is --
21 THE COURT: From the Church, unless it can
22 be authenticated it's from the Church.
23 MR. WEINBERG: Okay.
24 BY MR. DANDAR:
25 Q You've seen a document before entitled the
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
Volume 10, Page 1351
1 Integrity of Source, correct?
2 A Yes.
3 Q Did you see that while you were a Scientologist?
4 A I believe so.
5 Q And the document that you saw while you were a
6 Scientologist entitled the Integrity of Source concerned
7 and made it clear that anything that Mr. Hubbard wrote
8 could not be cancelled or changed in any manner except by
9 him. Is that correct?
10 A Yes. But the reason that I'm noting that there's
11 no date on this document is because I believe this was
12 written while Mr. Hubbard was still alive.
13 Q Okay.
14 A I mean, I think it was. And I believe that, from
15 my recollection, this issue was -- or, this directive was
16 published --
17 THE COURT: The truth of the matter is this
18 thing isn't in evidence. So we don't care about this,
19 if it's not in evidence. He just asked you a
20 question, and you've answered it, I believe.
21 A Okay. When he was alive, that was a true
22 statement.
23 BY MR. DANDAR:
24 Q Okay. So has it been changed by somebody?
25 A I don't know. I haven't been there since 1989.
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
Volume 10, Page 1352
1 Q And this concept or this firm Church policy that
2 nothing can be changed that was written by Mr. Hubbard or
3 cancelled except for typographical errors at the bottom,
4 that policy has enabled you to testify about the policy of
5 the Church of Scientology in the '90s because that policy
6 has never changed since you left the Church.
7 MR. WEINBERG: Objection as to the form.
8 She said she hasn't been in the Church since 1989 --
9 THE COURT: Sustained.
10 MR. WEINBERG: -- so how would she know?
11 THE COURT: I think that's true. I mean, I
12 don't know. Maybe it has changed.
13 BY MR. DANDAR:
14 Q Do you know if the policy in the Church of
15 Scientology has changed since you left in '89?
16 MR. McGOWAN: That was asked and answered.
17 THE COURT: No, it wasn't. Overruled.
18 A No, I don't.
19 THE COURT: I've read an awful lot of stuff
20 in this case that seems to suggest that the doctrine,
21 whatever Mr. Hubbard has written, is, in effect, the
22 scriptures -- I'm sure I'm saying this incorrectly,
23 but it is the doctrine of the Church. Do you have any
24 reason to believe that they have decided to do away
25 with some of his teachings or writings?
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
Volume 10, Page 1353
1 THE WITNESS: Your Honor, I think that
2 you're absolutely right that the bulk of the
3 Scientology doctrine is from L. Ron Hubbard, and he is
4 considered the founder of Scientology. So I would
5 imagine that it still is true that his writings formed
6 the heart and soul of the organization. But --
7 THE COURT: And during your tenure there,
8 whatever his writings were, were not to be changed by
9 anyone else in the Church. Is that true?
10 THE WITNESS: That's correct.
11 THE COURT: And I guess --
12 THE WITNESS: As long as he was alive.
13 THE COURT: Okay. And you were in the
14 Church after he died?
15 THE WITNESS: Yes.
16 THE COURT: For how long?
17 THE WITNESS: Three years.
18 THE COURT: Okay. And during those three
19 years, were the writings of L. Ron Hubbard changed or
20 cancelled or anything like that as far as you knew?
21 THE WITNESS: Well, I think that there were
22 some administrative procedures that may have been
23 revised just because -- for practical reasons or
24 whatever.
25 THE COURT: Because they were new
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
Volume 10, Page 1354
1 administrators?
2 THE WITNESS: Yes.
3 THE COURT: Okay. But whatever it is he
4 wrote about Scientology, was any of that changed?
5 THE WITNESS: No.
6 THE COURT: And I guess the last question,
7 if you can answer it, is do you have any knowledge
8 since you've been out -- I mean, this can be from
9 hearsay or otherwise -- that the writings or teachings
10 of L. Ron Hubbard have been changed or have been
11 deleted or are allowed to be changed by Mr. Miscavige
12 or anybody else?
13 THE WITNESS: Well, from some hearsay, I
14 guess I would have to say I understand that some of
15 his things have been revised.
16 THE COURT: His -- his basic -- or, his
17 administrative matters or substantive writings?
18 THE WITNESS: I think more administrative.
19 THE COURT: Okay. And I think that's all
20 she can testify to.
21 MR. DANDAR: Okay. That's fine.
22 MR. FUGATE: Judge, I have this one that
23 says "policy." I don't know what the point is that
24 we're getting to.
25 THE COURT: This is not in evidence --
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
Volume 10, Page 1355
1 MR. FUGATE: Okay.
2 THE COURT: -- so it doesn't matter.
3 BY MR. DANDAR:
4 Q Now, here's a foundation statement, and then I'm
5 going to get to my question. Previously you testified that
6 the first time Mr. Rinder ever approached you to recant
7 sworn declarations that you or husband made was in 1994.
8 Is that correct?
9 A Yes.
10 Q He offered you $200,000 to do that. Is that
11 correct?
12 A No.
13 Q He offered you more than that, didn't he.
14 A Well, the way you're characterizing the meeting
15 is not exactly accurate.
16 Q How much money did he offer you in the
17 discussions, the eight days of discussions you and your
18 husband had with Mr. Rinder?
19 A I believe it was close to $200,000.
20 Q Are you sure it wasn't 450,000?
21 A I don't believe he ever offered that.
22 Q Now, isn't it true that you wanted to accept that
23 offer and recant your sworn testimony that you had given to
24 Attorney Graham Berry, but your husband, Vaughn Young, did
25 not?
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
Volume 10, Page 1356
1 A No.
2 Q Did you ever tell your husband, Vaughn Young,
3 that you wanted to accept their offer and take the money?
4 A Yes.
5 Q And he said no. Correct?
6 A Correct.
7 Q All right.
8 A I wanted to settle with them at that point, and
9 he didn't.
10 Q Now, Mr. Rinder --
11 THE COURT: The only question I have, was
12 there any reason to recant your testimony, your
13 affidavit at that time?
14 THE WITNESS: No, your Honor.
15 THE COURT: So the request was to recant a
16 truthful affidavit?
17 THE WITNESS: Actually, that -- there was no
18 request in that way.
19 THE COURT: Okay.
20 THE WITNESS: That's why I was having
21 trouble answering his question.
22 THE COURT: Well, what were you to recant?
23 I mean, when I think of recanting, you recant
24 something untrue and make it true.
25 THE WITNESS: Your Honor, we weren't asked
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
Volume 10, Page 1357
1 to recant. The word "recant" never came up.
2 THE COURT: Okay.
3 BY MR. DANDAR:
4 Q What was the word he used to get you to somehow
5 change, alter, or withdraw your affidavits that you had
6 given to Graham Berry?
7 A The only issue that came up in that regard was
8 Mr. Rinder had reason to believe that Mr. Berry had -- had
9 had me -- I'll just speak for myself -- had had me sign an
10 affidavit, and then later Mr. Berry had added more pages to
11 the affidavit after I'd signed it. He had reason to
12 believe that because apparently -- apparently; this is
13 hearsay -- but that did happen to someone else.
14 Q Who?
15 A Vicki Aznaran. And Vicki Aznaran wrote it up, an
16 affidavit about that.
17 Q So you were willing to accept his offer and file
18 something saying that Mr. Berry had indeed --
19 A No.
20 Q -- supplemented your affidavit?
21 A No, I was not willing.
22 Q What were you willing to do?
23 A I was willing to accept their offer, which was to
24 help us get on our feet.
25 Q And not -- not file anything in any court papers?
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
Volume 10, Page 1358
1 A Yes. The idea of signing any affidavit in
2 which -- that idea that I had signed an affidavit and then
3 Mr. Berry had added pages to it later didn't come up until
4 the very last morning of our talks.
5 Q And you knew that allegation by Mr. Rinder was
6 false?
7 A Right. That's why we didn't sign the affidavit.
8 Q Now, Mr. Rinder did get Vicki Aznaran, after she
9 filed affidavits and gave depositions, to recant her
10 testimony, correct?
11 THE COURT: I'm sorry, who?
12 MR. DANDAR: Vicki Aznaran, A-z-n-a-r-a-n.
13 THE COURT: Had done what now? I'm sorry, I
14 was thinking about something else.
15 MR. DANDAR: Okay. I'll do it again.
16 BY MR. DANDAR:
17 Q Isn't it true that Mr. Rinder did succeed in
18 getting Vicki Aznaran to file recantation affidavits after
19 she testified in depositions and gave declarations in
20 another case?
21 MR. WEINBERG: Objection, foundation. If he
22 can establish a foundation that she has knowledge --
23 THE COURT: If she has knowledge.
24 BY MR. DANDAR:
25 Q Do you have knowledge of that?
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
Volume 10, Page 1359
1 A The only knowledge I have is that -- what I just
2 said, that she filed an affidavit later saying that
3 Mr. Berry had -- had her sign an 8-page affidavit and then
4 later she was shown something like a 17- or 18-page
5 affidavit with information in it that she hadn't written.
6 Q And who told you that?
7 A I saw it.
8 Q You saw her declaration saying that?
9 A Yes.
10 Q How much money was she paid?
11 THE COURT: I think the foundation has been
12 laid, so I'll allow it.
13 BY MR. DANDAR:
14 Q How much money was she paid?
15 A I have no idea.
16 Q She was the former president of RTC, correct?
17 A She was the deputy inspector general.
18 Q Okay. She wasn't the president?
19 A I know that she was the deputy inspector general.
20 She was Jesse Prince's senior.
21 Q Okay. Now, Mr. Yanny, an attorney for RTC, whose
22 declarations we filed in that same stack of October '99,
23 along with yours and Vaughn Young's declarations, he
24 also -- was he asked to recant his prior declarations?
25 MR. WEINBERG: Objection. Foundation.
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
Volume 10, Page 1360
1 THE COURT: If she knows.
2 BY MR. DANDAR:
3 Q If you know.
4 A I have no idea.
5 Q Okay. Do you recall Mr. Rinder going to former
6 Scientologist Gary Scarff and asking him and succeeding in
7 getting him to file recantation affidavits or declarations?
8 A I don't know about that.
9 Q Do you know who Bill Franks is?
10 A Yes.
11 Q Who was -- what was his last highest post in
12 Scientology?
13 A Back in 1982, I believe, he was executive
14 director international.
15 Q Was he appointed executive director international
16 for life by Mr. Hubbard?
17 A I don't know.
18 Q Was he ousted from the Church --
19 THE COURT: Wait. I didn't even hear an
20 answer to that. Maybe she doesn't know.
21 MR. DANDAR: I think she said she doesn't
22 know.
23 THE WITNESS: I said I don't know.
24 THE COURT: Oh, okay, I'm sorry.
25 BY MR. DANDAR:
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
Volume 10, Page 1361
1 Q Was he ousted from the position in the Church of
2 Scientology by Mr. Miscavige?
3 MR. WEINBERG: Objection, your Honor.
4 Relevance. What's this have to do with this
5 proceeding, questions about Mr. Franks?
6 THE COURT: I would suspect that the
7 relevance is that Mr. Miscavige has authority over all
8 of Scientology.
9 MR. WEINBERG: Well, this is the person that
10 Mr. Dandar is now trying to substitute as a religion
11 expert.
12 THE COURT: Who?
13 MR. WEINBERG: Bill Franks -- Mr. Dandar is
14 now trying to use Mr. Franks as a religion expert. It
15 has nothing to do with this proceeding at all, as far
16 as I know.
17 MR. DANDAR: This proceeding is two-fold, as
18 you said yesterday and warned me --
19 THE COURT: Overruled.
20 MR. WEINBERG: All right. And then my
21 objection is foundation again to her personal
22 knowledge.
23 THE COURT: And I think she understands by
24 now that if she doesn't know that she will say she
25 doesn't know. So if she says she knows or she's read,
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
Volume 10, Page 1362
1 then it comes in. If she doesn't know, she'll say she
2 doesn't know, and we'll move on to the next question.
3 BY MR. DANDAR:
4 Q Were you in the -- were you in OSA at the time
5 Mr. Franks was ousted from his position in the Church of
6 Scientology?
7 A No.
8 Q What post did you have at that time? Beginning
9 of '81 and beginning of '82.
10 A I was in the Guardian's Office.
11 THE COURT: Who is Mr. Franks again? This
12 is somebody you're going to ask to add --
13 MR. DANDAR: This is what I was going to
14 address this morning and asked to do it later. But
15 I'll tell you right now that I was fortunate to find
16 him in Tampa yesterday --
17 THE COURT: What is his name?
18 MR. DANDAR: Bill Franks.
19 THE COURT: Okay.
20 MR. DANDAR: And I had him subpoenaed. And
21 he called me up after I had him subpoenaed and let me
22 know that he was leaving the Tampa area tomorrow at
23 6 p.m., if I wanted him to testify about whatever it
24 is, if I could get him on the stand by 4:00 tomorrow
25 so he can make his plane connection. And I was going
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
Volume 10, Page 1363
1 to bring that up with you.
2 THE COURT: Okay. So we'll deal with that
3 at the right time.
4 MR. DANDAR: Right.
5 BY MR. DANDAR:
6 Q So anyway, do you have -- the Guardian's Office,
7 just so the record is clear, the Guardian's Office, after
8 Mary Sue Hubbard and some others were prosecuted and
9 convicted of breaking into government offices, that
10 office's name was changed to the Office of Special Affairs.
11 Is that correct?
12 A Well, the Guardian's Office was actually done
13 away with and a new organization was created called the
14 Office of Special Affairs.
15 Q And are you aware that your husband, Vaughn
16 Young, who served in both offices, disagrees with what you
17 just said, that it was done away with?
18 MR. WEINBERG: Objection as to the form.
19 THE COURT: Sustained.
20 BY MR. DANDAR:
21 Q Okay. The Guardian's Office is Department 20, is
22 it not? Was it not?
23 A Yes, it was.
24 Q Department 20? And isn't the Office of Special
25 Affairs also Department 20?
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
Volume 10, Page 1364
1 A Yes.
2 Q And don't they basically do the same -- they have
3 the same function for the Church of Scientology?
4 A They have some of the same functions, yes.
5 Q Now, are you sure that when you saw Jesse Prince
6 leave the hearing in front of Judge Baird on April 9th,
7 2002, while Mr. Minton was testifying, that he left because
8 he thought Mr. Minton was going to jail?
9 A I'm sure that he told me that.
10 Q Did he also tell you that he left because he saw
11 his friend, Bob Minton, lying under oath in front of Judge
12 Baird?
13 A No. He told you that. He told me something
14 else.
15 Q How do you know what he told me?
16 A Well, I'm assuming he told you that because
17 you're asking me that and thinking that he told me the same
18 thing he told you, I guess.
19 Q So -- we can't have that. We can't speculate
20 what -- I mean, that's why I asked you. How do you know
21 what Jesse Prince told me? You're just guessing, right?
22 A That's right.
23 Q You're just guessing?
24 THE COURT: That's right, Counselor, unless
25 she has read it or seen it or something.
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
Volume 10, Page 1365
1 BY MR. DANDAR:
2 Q Okay. What did Jesse Prince tell you that he
3 heard Bob Minton say in front of Judge Baird that led Jesse
4 Prince to conclude --
5 THE COURT: Although, actually, if she has
6 seen Jesse Prince's affidavit --
7 I think you may have said that.
8 THE WITNESS: That's true.
9 THE COURT: Did you read Jesse Prince's
10 affidavit?
11 THE WITNESS: Yes, I did.
12 THE COURT: I think that was in the
13 affidavit.
14 MR. DANDAR: I just wanted to make sure it
15 wasn't a conversation.
16 THE COURT: So with that in mind that she
17 saw it, she has her reasons for suggesting that he may
18 have told you one thing and told her something else.
19 BY MR. DANDAR:
20 Q What did Jesse Prince tell you --
21 THE COURT: Asked and answered.
22 MR. DANDAR: No --
23 THE COURT: Sorry.
24 MR. DANDAR: No, it hasn't. I don't think
25 so.
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
Volume 10, Page 1366
1 THE WITNESS: Thank you, your Honor.
2 THE COURT: She just told us.
3 BY MR. DANDAR:
4 Q What did Jesse Prince tell you he heard Bob
5 Minton say in front of Judge Baird that led him to the
6 conclusion that Bob Minton was going to jail?
7 THE COURT: Okay. That's not been asked and
8 answered.
9 A He didn't tell me.
10 BY MR. DANDAR:
11 Q When he told you that he left the hearing because
12 he thought Bob Minton was going to jail, did anyone ask him
13 to explain that?
14 A When he told me that, he was extremely distraught
15 about it, and I was more or less just listening to what he
16 was saying. And it wasn't really making much sense.
17 Q Now, the affidavit that you filed, your second
18 one, which is 34 paragraphs long, which we're just about to
19 get back into --
20 THE COURT: What affidavit are we talking
21 about?
22 MR. DANDAR: The one that is the recantation
23 affidavit that is 34 paragraphs long.
24 THE COURT: We're not going to go through
25 old stuff.
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
Volume 10, Page 1367
1 MR. DANDAR: No, no. I'm going to pick up
2 where I left off.
3 THE COURT: All right.
4 MR. DANDAR: Hopefully do it quickly.
5 THE COURT: Oh, yes, that's the one you
6 thought you could finish the other day, and I said no,
7 you can't, we're going to stop. All right. Is that
8 going to be the end? Are you going to be done then?
9 MR. DANDAR: No.
10 THE COURT: Oh, all right.
11 MR. DANDAR: But real close.
12 THE COURT: Good.
13 MR. DANDAR: That --
14 MR. LIEBERMAN: Only a few more days, Judge.
15 BY MR. DANDAR:
16 Q This affidavit came after your first recantation
17 affidavit, correct?
18 A Okay. Now we're talking about my one that I
19 signed on April 29th again?
20 Q Yes.
21 A All right. So we're back to that.
22 Q Do you have that in front of you?
23 A Yes.
24 Q Okay. In the first recantation affidavit, you
25 stated that upon information and belief, you thought there
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
Volume 10, Page 1368
1 was a secret agreement between the Estate and Bob Minton
2 and the Lisa McPherson Trust. Do you recall that?
3 A Let me just pull that out.
4 THE COURT: It looks like he wants to talk
5 about the affidavit that's signed 17 April --
6 THE WITNESS: Yes, your Honor.
7 THE COURT: -- 2002. And then the other one
8 is April 29th.
9 THE WITNESS: Yes. I was just pulling both
10 of those out.
11 THE COURT: All right.
12 THE WITNESS: Okay.
13 BY MR. DANDAR:
14 Q Why did you phrase it "upon information and
15 belief"?
16 THE COURT: What -- tell me where you are so
17 I can look.
18 MR. DANDAR: I'm on --
19 THE COURT: Which affidavit?
20 MR. DANDAR: The April 17th affidavit, page
21 2 of 4, paragraph 8A.
22 THE COURT: Okay. I see where you are.
23 A I think I testified earlier that my attorney
24 drafted quite a bit of this affidavit. So wherever you see
25 legal language like that --
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
Volume 10, Page 1369
1 BY MR. DANDAR:
2 Q Isn't it true, Ms. Brooks, that you have never
3 filed a declaration or affidavit using that language prior
4 to this time?
5 A That's probably true. It isn't something that I
6 would say.
7 Q And isn't it true that the reason why you used
8 this language "upon information and belief" is because you
9 don't know of any secret agreement personally, within your
10 personal knowledge, between the Estate and Bob Minton or
11 the Lisa McPherson Trust?
12 A No.
13 Q That's why this kind of shaky language is used?
14 A No.
15 MR. FUGATE: Excuse me.
16 MR. McGOWAN: "No," and then that was the
17 answer. Move to strike that.
18 THE COURT: Move to strike what?
19 MR. McGOWAN: The comment of counsel after
20 the no, about the shaky language.
21 THE COURT: Well, I'm not sure if he was
22 done with his question --
23 MR. DANDAR: I wasn't.
24 THE COURT: -- and she started to answer it
25 before he was done.
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
Volume 10, Page 1370
1 MR. McGOWAN: Okay.
2 THE COURT: But as far as the "shaky" or
3 whatever, that's just -- you know, I just understand
4 lawyers use language, and that part of it is not
5 important. I don't know if that's shaky or not. I
6 think that's how people do things sometimes.
7 BY MR. DANDAR:
8 Q Now, I'm going to just go ahead and try to finish
9 this affidavit, and then I'll get back to something here.
10 Look at paragraph -- let's go to April --
11 MR. FUGATE: Just so I'm clear, I was
12 confused on the end of the question and the answer.
13 Could we have it read back? Did he say that that's
14 true and she said no or --
15 THE COURT: No, I don't think so. I think
16 he said "isn't it true that."
17 MR. FUGATE: Oh.
18 THE COURT: And she said, "No, that is not
19 true." In other words, I presume from that it is her
20 testimony that she was aware of an agreement.
21 MR. FUGATE: Well, if you've got that --
22 THE COURT: I got that.
23 MR. WEINBERG: I got that too.
24 THE COURT: Did I get that right?
25 THE WITNESS: Yes, your Honor.
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
Volume 10, Page 1371
1 BY MR. DANDAR:
2 Q This is the first time you ever used the phrase
3 "upon information and belief"?
4 THE COURT: I understood that too.
5 BY MR. DANDAR:
6 Q All right. Here we go. Put that away and take
7 out the April 29th one and turn to paragraph 28.
8 A Okay.
9 Q And the second sentence that starts out, "I told
10 him I wanted to call Mrs. Liebreich and set up a meeting."
11 Do you see that?
12 A Wait a second.
13 Q I'm sorry. Okay? And you say, "I wanted to tell
14 her we could not continue our lies because Scientology was
15 closing in." What do you mean by "Scientology was closing
16 in"?
17 A I think I made that pretty clear in paragraph 27.
18 No, I'm sorry, not paragraph 27; paragraph 26. I was
19 becoming increasingly concerned, as I think I've said
20 several times, that Scientology's discovery actions with
21 regard to me and Mr. Minton were -- were getting to be such
22 that he and I both were -- were on a course of action that
23 was going to get us in a lot of legal trouble.
24 Q That concerned the not complying with discovery
25 orders of the Court, as you say in paragraph 26, correct?
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
Volume 10, Page 1372
1 A And particularly Mr. Minton's perjury.
2 Q Well, where do you say that? Where do you say
3 that in particular, "Mr. Minton's perjury"? That's not in
4 paragraph 26, 27, or 28.
5 THE COURT: But she does say in paragraph 28
6 it's only a matter of time before "our" perjury. I
7 assume that means "our," hers and Mr. Minton's.
8 THE WITNESS: Yes. Yes, your Honor. I made
9 it as clear as I could.
10 BY MR. DANDAR:
11 Q Okay. Now, you also say in here that Mr. Minton
12 agreed with you to call up Dell Liebreich in August of 2001
13 and -- or, go meet with her to tell her to drop the case.
14 A Yes. He wanted me to do that, although, as it
15 says here, he didn't believe that she would.
16 Q Now, did you ever talk to Mr. Minton after he
17 gave his October 2001 deposition to Mr. Rosen in the case
18 before Judge Baird where he denied having any prior
19 knowledge of you trying to go see Dell Liebreich on your
20 own?
21 A I'm not familiar with that deposition transcript.
22 Q So if Mr. Minton testified that he didn't know
23 until you were about to go and told you not to go, that
24 wouldn't be a true statement, would it, according to
25 paragraph 28 of this April 29th affidavit.
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
Volume 10, Page 1373
1 A Correct.
2 Q Did you ever tell Mr. Minton he needed to recant
3 that statement in his October 2001 deposition since it was
4 a lie?
5 A I didn't know he made that statement.
6 Q Did you read that deposition?
7 A No.
8 Q In fact, in that deposition, that answer in front
9 of Mr. Rosen, he used the F word to describe and quote what
10 he told you about your idea to go to see Dell Liebreich by
11 yourself. Do you know that?
12 A I think I just said I didn't read it.
13 THE COURT: Look, it isn't important if she
14 read it.
15 I suppose the real question is, Did he do
16 that? I mean, when this occurred, whatever this
17 discussion was between you all about calling Dell
18 Liebreich, did he tell you --
19 What was your question? Not to --
20 MR. DANDAR: Yes.
21 THE COURT: Using the F word and telling you
22 not to?
23 BY MR. DANDAR:
24 Q "No blanking way are you going to go see Dell
25 Liebreich." Did he ever tell you that?
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
Volume 10, Page 1374
1 A He may have used the F word, but not in that
2 sentence.
3 Q Okay.
4 A He would have used the F word in saying this
5 thing that I say here, in somewhat more genteel language,
6 that he did not believe she would drop the case.
7 Q Now, look at paragraph 30. Paragraph 30, you
8 talk about what's going on in August of 2001, when you did
9 [sic] go see Ms. Liebreich, and you wanted to distance
10 yourself more from the wrongful death case --
11 A When I did go see Ms. Liebreich? What --
12 Q Paragraph 30. It says you wanted to distance
13 yourself -- you, Mr. Minton, the LMT -- from the wrongful
14 death case.
15 A But I think what you said was after I did go see
16 Ms. Liebreich. I didn't.
17 Q No, after you did not go to see Ms. Liebreich --
18 A Oh, okay.
19 Q -- it starts off in paragraph 30.
20 A All right.
21 Q Go down in the middle there where it says you
22 informed Mr. Dandar that "I would not appear as a witness
23 in the case." Are you saying under oath in this
24 declaration affidavit that you informed me in August of
25 2001 that you would not be a witness in the case?
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
Volume 10, Page 1375
1 A Yes.
2 Q Isn't it true, ma'am, that you have never been
3 listed as a witness in the wrongful death case?
4 A No.
5 Q When were you listed as a witness?
6 A Well, the whole reason all this stuff was
7 happening and Scientology was being able to pull me into
8 all these depositions and all this discovery is because I
9 had been variously identified by you as either a consultant
10 or an expert witness.
11 Q You were never listed by the Estate as a
12 testifying expert witness for trial, were you?
13 A Was I --
14 (A cell phone sounded.)
15 THE COURT: Mr. Bailiff, we can't just have
16 this. These phones just go off regularly. Nobody
17 cares a thing about the fact that I don't want phones
18 to go off in here.
19 THE BAILIFF: There's a sign out there.
20 I'll talk to her.
21 THE COURT: Put up a big sign. Write it on
22 a piece of paper and p