Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida
Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500
Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500
1450
1 IN THE CIRCUIT COURT FOR PINELLAS COUNTY, FLORIDA
CASE NO. 00-5682-CI-11
2
3
4
DELL LIEBREICH, as Personal
5 Representative of the ESTATE OF
LISA McPHERSON,
6
7 Plaintiff,
8 vs. VOLUME 11
9 CHURCH OF SCIENTOLOGY FLAG
SERVICE ORGANIZATION, JANIS
10 JOHNSON, ALAIN KARTUZINSKI
and DAVID HOUGHTON, D.D.S.,
11
Defendants.
12
_______________________________________/
13
14
15 PROCEEDINGS: Defendants' Omnibus Motion for
Terminating Sanctions and Other Relief.
16
DATE: May 16, 2002. Afternoon Session.
17
PLACE: Courtroom B, Judicial Building
18 St. Petersburg, Florida.
19 BEFORE: Honorable Susan F. Schaeffer,
Circuit Judge.
20
REPORTED BY: Lynne J. Ide, RMR.
21 Deputy Official Court Reporter,
Sixth Judicial Circuit of Florida.
22
23
24
25
1451
1 APPEARANCES:
2 MR. KENNAN G. DANDAR
DANDAR & DANDAR
3 5340 West Kennedy Blvd., Suite 201
Tampa, FL 33602
4 Attorney for Plaintiff.
5 MR. LUKE CHARLES LIROT
LUKE CHARLES LIROT, PA
6 112 N East Street, Street, Suite B
Tampa, FL 33602-4108
7 Attorney for Plaintiff.
8 MR. KENDRICK MOXON
MOXON & KOBRIN
9 1100 Cleveland Street, Suite 900
Clearwater, FL 33755
10 Attorney for Church of Scientology Flag Service
Organization.
11
12 MR. LEE FUGATE and
MR. MORRIS WEINBERG, JR. and
13 ZUCKERMAN, SPAEDER
101 E. Kennedy Blvd, Suite 1200
14 Tampa, FL 33602-5147
Attorneys for Church of Scientology Flag Service
15 Organization.
16
MR. ERIC M. LIEBERMAN
17 RABINOWITZ, BOUDIN, STANDARD
740 Broadway at Astor Place
18 New York, NY 10003-9518
Attorney for Church of Scientology Flag Service
19 Organization.
20
21 MR. MICHAEL LEE HERTZBERG
740 Broadway, Fifth Floor
22 New York, New York 10003
Attorney for Church of Scientology Flag Service
23 Organization.
24
25
1452
1 APPEARANCES: (Continued)
2
3 MR. BRUCE HOWIE
5720 Central Avenue
4 St. Petersburg, Florida.
Attorney for Robert Minton.
5
6 MR. THOMAS H. MCGOWAN
MCGOWAN & SUAREZ, LLP
7 150 2nd Avenue North, Suite 870
St. Petersburg, FL 33701-3381
8 Attorney for Stacy Brooks.
9
10 ALSO PRESENT:
11 Ms. Donna West
Mr. Rick Spector
12 Ms. Lara Cartwright
Ms. Sarah Heller
13 Mr. Ben Shaw
Mr. Brian Asay
14 Ms. Patricia Greenway
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
1453
1 MR. DANDAR: Judge, I had just two more
2 exhibits to identify, then I'll be done.
3 THE COURT: All right.
4 BY MR. DANDAR:
5 Q Ms. Brooks, I handed you Plaintiff's Exhibit 39.
6 MR. DANDAR: And, Judge, I handed up to you 39
7 and 40, which I'm going to hand her.
8 THE COURT: Okay. These are my copies?
9 MR. DANDAR: Yes.
10 BY MR. DANDAR:
11 Q Can you identify 39?
12 MR. FUGATE: Judge, 39, is that what appears to
13 be a magazine article?
14 MR. DANDAR: No.
15 MR. FUGATE: Oh.
16 MR. DANDAR: E-Mail.
17 MR. FUGATE: Sorry. I'll reserve.
18 BY MR. DANDAR:
19 Q Is that your E-Mail? Or is that a posting?
20 A Yes.
21 Q Which one is it? A posting?
22 A A posting.
23 Q Is that posted by you to alt.religion.Scientology?
24 A Yes.
25 Q The date of this is August 10 of '98?
1454
1 A Yes.
2 Q And at that time, Jesse Prince, when you talk
3 about Jesse Prince in this posting, you are talking about
4 him coming to work for FACTNet. Is that correct?
5 A Well, was actually coming to work for Bob Minton.
6 Q Was that at FACTNet?
7 A Well, that was one of the things he did. He also
8 did other work.
9 Q What other work?
10 A Mmm, he went out and did some work with
11 Mr. Leipold.
12 Q Okay. Could you turn to Page 1 and read out loud
13 the last paragraph which starts with, "It is obvious --"
14 A "It is obvious to me that this latest vicious
15 attack is because of Jesse Prince. I have known Jesse since
16 1976. He and I were good friends when we were in the Sea
17 Org and he was also a good friend of Vaughn's. Jesse and I
18 were friends because he never lost his sense of humanity,
19 even in his darkest hours as a senior executive in RTC. He
20 never crossed that final threshold like people like Marty
21 Rathbun had done. He never totally sold out to Miscavige.
22 He never became a Nazi. He paid dearly for refusing to
23 kowtow to DM, as did Vaughn and I. They broke him badly and
24 for five years after he finally escaped, Jesse was virtually
25 in hiding."
1455
1 Q Like your other postings to
2 alt.religion.Scientology, is that a truthful statement?
3 A As I said earlier, yes. It wasn't false.
4 Q And the bottom of Page 2, could you read the last
5 sentence which starts with, "But Jesse --"
6 A "But Jesse felt strongly that he has a
7 responsibility --"
8 THE COURT: Wait, I can't find where you are
9 reading. "But --"
10 MR. DANDAR: Right here at the bottom of
11 Page 2.
12 THE COURT: Okay. Thank you.
13 BY MR. DANDAR:
14 Q Go ahead.
15 A "But Jesse felt strongly that he has a
16 responsibility to tell the world what he knows. And he
17 wasn't frightened by Scientology's intimidation and
18 harassment tactics."
19 Q I'm sorry. Read the next sentence.
20 A "He and I teamed up that weekend in Columbus and
21 he has been working with Bob, Lawrence, Vaughn and I ever
22 since."
23 Q Turn to Page 3 and read the middle paragraph which
24 starts out by saying, "What I will say."
25 A "What I will say, though, is I have never seen
1456
1 Scientology as frightened as they have been in the past
2 several weeks since they discovered that Jesse Prince, Bob
3 Minton, Lawrence Wollersheim and Vaughn Young --" oh, and I
4 "-- all joined forces to expose them. There are a few other
5 key former members about to join us. And I can assure you,
6 when they do, Scientology's attacks on all of us will become
7 more vicious than ever."
8 Q Thank you. Turn to Exhibit 40.
9 A Uh-huh?
10 MR. FUGATE: My objection, if I may, on Exhibit
11 40 is, A, I can't read it. The print is too small.
12 B, I don't see a date on it, so I don't know that I
13 could make much more of an objection than that.
14 THE COURT: As far as your not being able to
15 read it, I can, so you'll have to get some better
16 glasses. As far as not having a date on it --
17 MR. FUGATE: Oh, you have a different version
18 than I do. I see why. Mine is a reduced version.
19 THE WITNESS: Mine is, too. That is much
20 better. I can't read mine, either.
21 THE COURT: Okay. Well, this one -- is this --
22 MR. DANDAR: That is for you, Judge. But if
23 you want the witness to look at that, and we can
24 make copies like that again.
25 THE COURT: Let me look and see if I see a
1457
1 date.
2 MR. DANDAR: I have the original. And the
3 original says, "1997 RTC copyright."
4 THE WITNESS: Thank you, your Honor.
5 THE COURT: You bet.
6 MR. DANDAR: Would you like to look at the
7 original while she's looking at that?
8 THE COURT: Sure.
9 BY MR. DANDAR:
10 Q Do you recognize this as an official publication
11 of RTC?
12 A Well, it looks like -- it looks like one.
13 Q Would you like to look at the original? Would
14 that help you better?
15 A That looks more like one.
16 Q Okay. I'll hand this back to the judge then.
17 A Yes.
18 Q How often -- when you were in Scientology, how
19 often did RTC put out a newsletter?
20 A I never saw one.
21 Q All right. On the back of that, at the top, and
22 if you go to the top middle column and start reading the
23 last paragraph and continue on to the third column, read
24 that out loud.
25 MR. FUGATE: What page? Could I just see --
1458
1 may I approach the witness? Because here is what my
2 problem is, just so you don't think I'm fooling with
3 the Court.
4 THE COURT: No, I didn't think you were
5 fooling.
6 MR. FUGATE: I can't see --
7 MR. DANDAR: I'll get you a better copy.
8 THE COURT: I actually can read that, too, so
9 maybe you just need to go to the eye doctor.
10 MR. FUGATE: All right.
11 THE COURT: Notice I have glasses. And you
12 don't. Yet.
13 MR. FUGATE: Thank you, Judge. I'm getting
14 old.
15 THE COURT: That's it.
16 BY MR. DANDAR:
17 Q Go ahead.
18 A "Read through the list and become familiar with
19 the different matters of concern so you can easily recognize
20 them. Keep the list on hand for future reference. You must
21 inform RTC if you encounter any such situations, regardless
22 of any other action taken. If you wish to report a
23 situation and are not sure whether RTC should be informed,
24 write the report to your ethics section and send a copy to
25 RTC. You may also write the RTC reports officer and request
1459
1 a copy of the knowledge reports policy letter."
2 Q Now, in the far right-hand column of the
3 situations entitled -- under ethics, does there appear to be
4 a listing for PTS Type III?
5 A Yes.
6 Q Does that mean PTS Type III people need to be
7 reported to RTC?
8 MR. FUGATE: Your Honor, I would object to this
9 as being outside of her knowledge. This is a '97
10 publication.
11 THE COURT: That is true. I think the article
12 speaks for itself. If she has no more knowledge
13 than what it says, she can be asked there.
14 BY MR. DANDAR:
15 Q Okay. Do you have more knowledge than what it
16 says there?
17 A No.
18 MR. DANDAR: Judge, I'll keep the original,
19 unless you want it.
20 THE WITNESS: You can take that one.
21 MR. DANDAR: And the copy that Mr. Fugate
22 couldn't read is marked as an exhibit.
23 THE COURT: All right.
24 MR. DANDAR: And I have no other questions.
25 THE COURT: All right. Mr. Fugate.
1460
1 MR. FUGATE: Thank you, your Honor.
2 THE COURT: I'm sorry, could I ask one
3 question. D/inspector, is that deputy inspector?
4 THE WITNESS: Deputy.
5 THE COURT: General office?
6 THE WITNESS: Deputy inspector, general office.
7 Yes.
8 Excuse me, but do you need this?
9 MR. DANDAR: Yes. Thank you. And the witness
10 just handed me the clerk's Exhibit 39. I'm handing
11 it to the clerk.
12 THE COURT: All right.
13 MR. FUGATE: May I proceed?
14 THE COURT: You may, indeed.
15 REDIRECT EXAMINATION
16 BY MR. FUGATE:
17 Q Good afternoon, it seems like a long time ago
18 since I was here.
19 A Good to see you again.
20 Q I'm going to try to shorten this up as much as I
21 can and I'm going to try to ask a couple of housekeeping
22 matters and I'm try to keep track of things.
23 MR. FUGATE: Sometimes, Judge, I'll just have
24 to try to dig out an exhibit. I was trying to do
25 that over lunch and they are a little confused.
1461
1 BY MR. FUGATE:
2 Q Is it your testimony, Ms. Brooks, that Mr. Howie
3 is the person that started the settlement process that leads
4 us to where we are, at least, today?
5 A Yes, it is.
6 Q And the meetings that took place in New York on
7 the 28th and 29th that we've heard about in March, who
8 initiated the calls that set those into motion? Do you
9 recall?
10 A Mr. Minton, I think.
11 Q Mr. Minton?
12 A I think so.
13 Q Now, one of the demands or the requests that you
14 made that -- that you and Mr. Minton made at the meetings,
15 correct me if I'm wrong, was that you wanted to -- I'm
16 saying you collectively, both of you.
17 MR. FUGATE: Judge, if there is a problem,
18 you'll correct me, I guess.
19 BY MR. FUGATE:
20 Q But that you wanted to continue or stop the
21 contempt proceedings that were scheduled in front of Judge
22 Baird and Judge Schaeffer. Is that one of the requests or
23 demands that were made?
24 A Yes.
25 Q And that demand -- how was that demand met?
1462
1 A Rudely, I thought.
2 Q And what was the response?
3 A Well, the response was from Mr. Rosen. And he
4 said, "Absolutely not. We will not stop any of our ongoing
5 proceedings."
6 Q And so essentially when you left those meetings,
7 and I don't want to go back through it and rehash those,
8 believe me, but when you left those meetings, there was no
9 deal, no settlement, no nothing, and the proceedings that
10 were scheduled in Pinellas County were still scheduled to go
11 forward. Is that correct?
12 A Yes.
13 Q And then we've heard about the -- the contempt
14 proceeding in front of Judge Schaeffer on April 5. My
15 question to you would be the next day, if I listened to the
16 testimony correctly, that you met with Mr. Rinder and
17 Ms. Yingling, was on April 6. Is that correct?
18 A Yes. On that Saturday.
19 Q And there were a series of questions about that as
20 to did you have counsel, was counsel present, et cetera.
21 And I'm going to ask you to take a look at a letter --
22 MR. FUGATE: Judge, I would like to give that
23 to you.
24 THE COURT: Is this the defendant's next in
25 number?
1463
1 MR. FUGATE: Yes, it will be.
2 THE COURT: And Madam Clerk, do you know what
3 that is?
4 THE CLERK: 75.
5 THE COURT: 75?
6 THE CLERK: Yes.
7 BY MR. FUGATE:
8 Q I ask you to take a look at what I handed up to
9 you as Defendant's Exhibit 75 and ask you if you have seen
10 that, can you identify it and does it refresh your
11 recollection as to how the meeting on April 6 took place?
12 THE COURT: I thought she was talking
13 previously about the meeting in New York.
14 THE WITNESS: That was a different letter, your
15 Honor.
16 MR. FUGATE: That was, I think, Mr. Jonas. I
17 didn't want to go back through all of that.
18 THE COURT: Okay.
19 MR. FUGATE: There was a question, Mr. Lirot
20 asked a couple questions, about where was counsel,
21 et cetera. And I just wanted to ask you --
22 BY MR. FUGATE:
23 Q First of, all have you seen that letter before?
24 A Yes.
25 Q And is that letter accurate as far as you recall
1464
1 in how the meetings took place, how they went forward
2 without Mr. Howie there?
3 A Yes. And I believe I may have misspoken earlier.
4 I don't remember if I said it was a letter from Mr. Howie,
5 but -- but I do recall now that this is the letter that I
6 saw during the contempt proceeding before Judge Schaeffer on
7 April 5, I believe.
8 Q And so does it refresh your memory then that the
9 two of you went forward without counsel but with --
10 THE COURT: I am sorry, but I don't remember
11 seeing this letter before as far as at any contempt
12 proceeding of mine. Maybe it was, but I don't
13 remember it.
14 MR. FUGATE: It was not.
15 THE WITNESS: No, your Honor.
16 MR. FUGATE: It was not presented as part of
17 the contempt proceedings. It was a letter she was
18 shown.
19 BY MR. FUGATE:
20 Q Is that right?
21 A Yes, earlier I testified I saw a letter that --
22 that -- I think I testified that Mr. Howie had written a
23 letter saying it was acceptable to him for Mr. Minton to
24 meet without counsel. And I see -- see, now, and remember
25 now, that it was to him, not from him.
1465
1 Q And to get on to housekeeping matters, there were
2 also -- I think you have seen those letters and I think that
3 one of them is in the document production from Mr. McGowan,
4 and the others in the document production, which this letter
5 is also, from Mr. Howie, that the documents that were
6 delivered to you and to Mr. Minton by me were delivered with
7 a letter to each of your counsel on the 15th. Is that
8 correct?
9 A The April 15th letter --
10 Q Yes.
11 A -- that we were talking about.
12 MR. FUGATE: That is part of the record, Judge,
13 just for housekeeping purposes.
14 BY MR. FUGATE:
15 Q Now, you have testified, as I heard your
16 testimony, that you have written a lot of negative things
17 about the Church over -- in the earlier affidavits, and I
18 won't go through them at this point. And that at the time
19 you wrote those, you believed what you wrote to be true.
20 Is that correct?
21 A Yes.
22 Q Now, that was a time when you were, as you said, I
23 think, a member of the critic community?
24 A Well, actually, before I became a member of the
25 critic community, I began to have a job as a consultant to
1466
1 litigators.
2 Q And as a consultant, you were paid to write
3 affidavits. Is that correct?
4 A Yes.
5 Q And you also wrote affidavits and suggested facts
6 or suggested beliefs without basis in fact. Is that
7 correct?
8 A That is correct.
9 Q Now, you testified in response to some questions
10 that Mr. Dandar had told you that he believed that Judge
11 Schaeffer, Judge Quesada and whoever else were corrupt, that
12 they had been bribed, and something of that nature. Is that
13 correct?
14 A Yes.
15 Q You did testify to that?
16 A Yes, I did.
17 Q Is that another example of a belief that was not
18 based in fact, as you now know it?
19 MR. DANDAR: Judge, I think we are getting --
20 MR. LIROT: Judge, I think we are getting into
21 heavy leading questions on redirect.
22 THE COURT: I like that so I'll go ahead and
23 allow it.
24 A Mmm, on Mr. Dandar's part, you mean?
25
1467
1 BY MR. FUGATE:
2 Q Yes.
3 A Yes, I believe -- I believe so.
4 THE COURT: I think what he's saying is you
5 have no factual basis to know that either Judge
6 Quesada, I or any other judge was being bribed.
7 THE WITNESS: That is correct, your Honor.
8 BY MR. FUGATE:
9 Q But it didn't stop you from expressing the belief
10 at that time that you were told that, is that correct?
11 A Bribed and blackmailed. Yes.
12 Q And, again, it is not based on any facts, as you
13 sit here today. Is it?
14 A That is correct.
15 Q Now, in the time that you were a paid witness, a
16 paid affiant and a critic, if I could focus you on that
17 time, there were a lot of things that you wrote and I think
18 you have deemed it as fabricated scenarios or I think you
19 also said creative writing, that were more innuendo than
20 fact. Is that correct?
21 A Yes.
22 Q Now, if you look at --
23 MR. FUGATE: And I think, Judge, it is in
24 evidence as Plaintiff's Exhibit -- and I thought I
25 wrote it down here, but it is the 13 March of 1997
1468
1 Seattle affidavit that was submitted in this case by
2 Ms. Brooks.
3 BY MR. FUGATE:
4 Q Do you know what I'm talking about there?
5 THE COURT: That is the one that is in
6 evidence?
7 MR. FUGATE: Yes.
8 THE COURT: Okay.
9 BY MR. FUGATE:
10 Q Do you recall that? Let me --
11 A Mmm --
12 Q Let me --
13 MR. FUGATE: Do you need a copy of it?
14 THE COURT: Is it the one dated December 14 of
15 '94?
16 MR. FUGATE: I think this is dated, your
17 Honor -- I can't get to the back of it. It is
18 dated -- I'll hand it up to you.
19 MR. WEINBERG: I think this is one of the ones
20 attached to the motions --
21 THE COURT: I'm looking at the wrong one.
22 MR. FUGATE: 13 March of '97. I have it tabbed
23 just for convenience sake.
24 THE COURT: Oh, okay. This is the one attached
25 as part of --
1469
1 MR. WEINBERG: The affidavit, I'm not sure.
2 THE COURT: I think it is.
3 BY MR. FUGATE:
4 Q If you flip over to Page 27 and 28 -- Page 9,
5 Paragraphs 27 and 28 that Mr. Dandar had you read from
6 earlier today, do you see the statement, "I am familiar with
7 the day-to-day activities of the highest level of management
8 of Scientology"?
9 A Yes.
10 Q "I have firsthand knowledge of the establishment
11 of the corporate structure of Scientology as it now exists."
12 A Yes.
13 Q You see that statement?
14 A Yes, I do.
15 Q And is that based on facts? Or is that based on
16 creative writing?
17 A Mmm, that was based on a little bit of fact which
18 I expanded to seem to be a broad range of knowledge.
19 Q Well, do you recall when -- let me get to it
20 here -- you didn't work in any of those corporate
21 organizations that you're making reference to, did you?
22 A Well, I did work in ASI for about six months.
23 Q But not in RTC or any of the other corporate
24 organizations --
25 A No.
1470
1 Q -- that you are writing about. Correct?
2 A Correct.
3 THE COURT: OSA, is that one? Or is that a
4 high level?
5 MR. FUGATE: No, it would be RTC, CSI or Flag.
6 BY MR. FUGATE:
7 Q And I don't think you had anything to do with any
8 of those corporate entities, did you?
9 A I didn't work in any of them.
10 Q Okay. But you indicated in this affidavit you had
11 first-hand knowledge of how they were created and how they
12 worked. Correct?
13 A Yes.
14 Q And that was not accurate. Was it?
15 A Mmm, I think I intended to create an impression
16 that I had a lot more firsthand knowledge than I really did.
17 Q Do you recall your deposition --
18 THE COURT: Well, you can understand, ma'am,
19 how someone might say that is a lie. It says: "I
20 have firsthand knowledge of the corporate structure
21 of Scientology and how it exists, having worked with
22 the staff who are responsible for creating it." You
23 either do or you don't. If you don't, it's a lie.
24 THE WITNESS: Well, I did have some, your
25 Honor, as I testified earlier, I did deal with some
1471
1 of the staff who actually carried out the
2 restructuring. And they told me some things
3 about -- about it.
4 THE COURT: Okay. I think we have to be real
5 careful here because, I mean, she may want to say
6 this is creative writing. But the prosecutor may
7 wish to say that is a false statement. That she's
8 now testifying about, and it is -- in other words, I
9 don't know about creative writing and affidavits. I
10 know about true statements and I know about false
11 statements. Creative writing, I don't know we've
12 ever had that before. So --
13 MR. FUGATE: I'm just asking --
14 THE COURT: I know. I understand.
15 MR. FUGATE: -- the questions, Judge. Frankly,
16 I'm asking the questions to go to --
17 THE COURT: Well, before she said, "I can't say
18 that it is false."
19 MR. FUGATE: I think she also said, "I really
20 didn't have any personal knowledge of how the
21 restructuring, the reorganization went, et cetera."
22 All I'm trying to do is eliminate that for
23 whatever --
24 THE COURT: Let me tell you what that says to
25 me. When somebody says "I can't say it is false,"
1472
1 then it's true. And if it's not true, then it's
2 false. And if it's something in between, then I
3 need to know what to call it.
4 And if this witness wants to tell me that what
5 she's calling it is creative writing, then I really
6 need to know that, because I assumed when her answer
7 is "I can't say it is false," then basically she was
8 saying it was true.
9 THE WITNESS: Your Honor, I don't believe I
10 used the term "Creative writing."
11 THE COURT: I don't either, but he's using it
12 and I want you to be careful, because creative
13 writing, I don't know what that is in an affidavit.
14 I don't think we allow it.
15 THE WITNESS: Right. And I don't think I
16 engaged in it.
17 BY MR. FUGATE:
18 Q When you say, "I am familiar with the day-to-day
19 activities of the highest level of management of
20 Scientology," is that true, or is that false?
21 A It is true. And I can explain.
22 Q Well, explain.
23 A I spent six months working with some of the top
24 executives in Scientology. And because I did that, I was
25 familiar with some of their day-to-day activities.
1473
1 Q Some of the day-to-day activities?
2 A Yes.
3 Q But you were not involved, is it not correct, you
4 were not involved in the restructuring, corporate
5 restructuring, that you talked about in this court?
6 A That is correct.
7 Q But you filed affidavits -- affidavits implying or
8 I think you said, by innuendo, that you were. Correct?
9 A Well, I think you could have gotten that
10 impression.
11 Q And I guess for the judge's perspective is where
12 does that fall within firsthand knowledge, my personal
13 belief, is it -- is it innuendo? Or is it based on fact?
14 THE WITNESS: Well, your Honor, I'm not trying
15 to skirt this issue. But, Mmm, I did feel that I
16 had firsthand knowledge. I wasn't very well
17 educated at all on, you know, how much firsthand
18 knowledge you are required to have in order to say
19 you have firsthand knowledge in the legal sense. I
20 felt that I did have some firsthand knowledge. And
21 that I could legitimately make speculations as an
22 expert based on the experience that I had had.
23 THE COURT: And I don't disagree that you can
24 do that. You cannot put something in an
25 affidavit -- let me make this clear to you in case
1474
1 this ever happens in your future.
2 You cannot put something in an affidavit or in
3 a declaration that is false.
4 THE WITNESS: I understand that, your Honor.
5 THE COURT: And, therefore, I am assuming that
6 what you are testifying to, if you do not tell me to
7 the contrary, it is your declarations and your
8 affidavits, except for what you have told me is
9 false, if they are part of an affidavit in this case
10 or whatever else you might have told me about, is
11 true.
12 Now, if it's maybe exaggerated --
13 THE WITNESS: Yes, your Honor.
14 THE COURT: -- and it's not maybe as in-depth
15 as it might have said, that may be a license as
16 permissible, even though I would certainly caution
17 you if I were your lawyer to caution you about that.
18 THE WITNESS: I won't do it any longer, your
19 Honor.
20 THE COURT: But I don't know of any model
21 ground. You know, an affidavit is supposed to be
22 true. And if you don't tell me that it's false, I
23 am going to assume that in the sense I think of it,
24 because that is all I know to think, it is true.
25 And except I think you suggested that you may
1475
1 have -- I don't know, you used some words that I was
2 okay with, you might have slanted it.
3 THE WITNESS: Yes.
4 THE COURT: I mean, I think affidavits that are
5 written by experts or testimony by experts sometimes
6 is slanted. But I don't think that they are
7 intentionally false.
8 THE WITNESS: Yes.
9 THE COURT: And there is a difference. I think
10 slanting testimony is something, slanting an
11 affidavit, happens. That is not that we are crazy
12 about it, but it happens.
13 But false, it's just not permissible. So
14 again, Mr. Fugate, when she leaves this stand, if
15 she has not told me something is false, in my mind,
16 it will be true or it -- it will be true, but it may
17 be slanted toward the side that she was submitting
18 it for.
19 MR. FUGATE: Judge, I don't want to tinker with
20 that observation, either.
21 THE COURT: I just want to let you all know
22 where I'm coming from when I'm going to analyze this
23 at the end of the day, that I don't know about
24 what -- was that other term we were using?
25 MR. FUGATE: Well, there was fabricated
1476
1 scenario was one. I think she made a comment --
2 THE WITNESS: Embellish.
3 MR. FUGATE: Embellish.
4 THE WITNESS: Exaggerate.
5 THE COURT: There was one I said I didn't know
6 about.
7 MR. DANDAR: Creative.
8 THE COURT: Creative writing.
9 THE WITNESS: I didn't use that term.
10 THE COURT: Creative writing, to me, is when I
11 sit down and write -- I don't have to write anything
12 that is true or even close to being true. I can be
13 creative and I can just have a good time.
14 MR. FUGATE: Well, my note, and you can correct
15 me if I'm wrong, I think I heard you -- and I can't
16 remember if it was Tuesday or Monday -- say that you
17 told the Court, "It was my job to create the worst
18 impression of the Church of Scientology as I could
19 by my affidavits."
20 THE WITNESS: That is correct, your Honor.
21 THE COURT: And that is what you meant when you
22 meant slanted?
23 THE WITNESS: Yes.
24 THE COURT: But you are not telling me, I don't
25 think, that your affidavits or your declarations
1477
1 were false except what you have already identified
2 as false.
3 THE WITNESS: Correct, your Honor. For
4 example, when I say, "I am familiar with the
5 day-to-day activities of the highest level of
6 management of Scientology," I did have a time when I
7 was familiar with that.
8 THE COURT: And that is "because of my
9 experience in ASI"?
10 THE WITNESS: Right.
11 THE COURT: I were to assume, if I looked at
12 that very carefully when you were in ASI, during
13 that period of time, whatever it was, you may have
14 been familiar, because you say you were familiar
15 with the day-to-day activities at the highest level
16 of management of Scientology, I would assume
17 combining those two things, that is what you mean.
18 THE WITNESS: Right. What I wasn't saying --
19 it was in 1982. I'm writing this affidavit in 19
20 whatever --
21 THE COURT: But everybody knew you had been out
22 of Scientology a long period of time. So nobody is
23 saying they assume today you knew that. It was when
24 you were there.
25 THE WITNESS: Right. What I think I would say
1478
1 is that I did not make it a point to point out that
2 hadn't been there in fifteen years or whatever. I
3 didn't not say it. I just didn't say it.
4 BY MR. FUGATE:
5 Q Well, Ms. Brooks, the next --
6 THE COURT: See, number one, "I was a member of
7 the Church of Scientology for fourteen years. From
8 January 1975 until January 1989."
9 So I would assume that after 1989, you have no
10 firsthand knowledge of anything in the Church of
11 Scientology.
12 THE WITNESS: That is correct.
13 THE COURT: And I would know that from reading
14 Paragraph 1. So when you read a declaration and --
15 and you are right, you need to define the parameters
16 of the declaration and that is what you do when you
17 say this period of time and this period of time.
18 Then when I read this, I assume you're talking only
19 about the experience that you had when you were in
20 ASI, which was certainly not all that period of
21 time, but a shorter period of time.
22 THE WITNESS: Right.
23 THE COURT: So that is fine. But, again, if
24 something is false, you better tell me it's false or
25 I'm going to assume it is true even though it may be
1479
1 slanted.
2 THE WITNESS: Yes, your Honor.
3 BY MR. FUGATE:
4 Q The next sentence, if I may, is, "I have firsthand
5 knowledge of the establishment of the corporate structure of
6 Scientology as it now exists," and this was written in 1997,
7 so that would be slanted or not true. Correct?
8 A Well, it was my belief when I wrote this that
9 because of the things that people who were working on this
10 structure -- restructuring in 1982 told me.
11 Q But you say firsthand knowledge. What you said in
12 court the other day is it was really by virtue of secondhand
13 hearsay?
14 A Of that -- of those conversations that I had.
15 Q Then you say in Paragraph 28, "All Scientology
16 corporations are a sham."
17 And is that --
18 THE COURT: Wait a second, where are we?
19 MR. FUGATE: I'm sorry, Judge, 28 on Page 9,
20 second line, "All Scientology corporations are a
21 sham."
22 BY MR. FUGATE:
23 Q And that would be trying to create the worst
24 possible impression. Is that an example of that?
25 A Yes. In fact, I have been advised by attorneys
1480
1 since then that that is a legal conclusion which I wasn't
2 qualified to make.
3 Q And the attorneys that were -- you were working
4 with at the time you wrote these affidavits didn't point
5 those things out to you, I take it?
6 A Well, the attorneys that I was working for were
7 happy to have me write this way.
8 Q Now, you wrote this affidavit in 1997, but do you
9 recall having testified in a deposition February 10, 1994 in
10 Sterling Management versus Cult Awareness Network, do you
11 recall having testified in a deposition there before --
12 THE COURT: What was the name of the lawsuit
13 again, Counselor?
14 MR. FUGATE: Sterling Management Systems versus
15 Cult Awareness Network, et al. It's a Superior
16 Court of the state of California, Los Angeles.
17 BY MR. FUGATE:
18 Q I think actually Justice Eagleson, I think he was
19 a master in that case, but he was a Supreme Court Justice.
20 Is that correct?
21 A Yes, I remember that.
22 Q Do you recall him indicating that you were not an
23 expert in corporate structure and you agreed with that?
24 A I remember him -- I certainly remember him
25 indicating it.
1481
1 Q Well, I'll just read this.
2 A Perhaps I agreed with him. I don't remember that.
3 Q "Justice Eagleson: Counsel, please let her
4 finish. I know what's going on here and so do you. She
5 doesn't know the difference between a director or an
6 executive officer but let her finish.
7 "The witness: I don't claim to be an expert on
8 corporate matters."
9 And he says, "All right."
10 Is that correct?
11 A Yes.
12 THE COURT: Me, either.
13 MR. FUGATE: Me, either.
14 MR. DANDAR: Judge, I'm going to object to this
15 line of questioning because I thought when you
16 redirect your witness that you call you're supposed
17 to build up credibility, not tear it down.
18 THE COURT: Counsel, I don't need that. Sit
19 down.
20 BY MR. FUGATE:
21 Q Now, I'm going to ask you --
22 MR. FUGATE: Could I have the Fishman
23 affidavit.
24 THE COURT: The rules of evidence -- I heard
25 somebody say so loud, "I don't get it." I'll tell
1482
1 you, rules of evidence allow a person to call their
2 own witness and impeach them. As long as you are
3 not calling the person solely for the purpose of
4 impeaching them, you can actually impeach your own
5 witness, both sides, everybody.
6 So things have changed from what they used to
7 be. The only thing you have to be careful is about
8 when somebody -- I see somebody putting somebody on
9 the stand for nothing other than to impeach them,
10 that is not permissible.
11 So that is not the sole purpose for which you
12 put her on the stand, so if he wants to impeach her
13 at this time, he can.
14 MR. FUGATE: Judge, I think, also, that this is
15 a slightly different process in that --
16 THE COURT: No question about that.
17 MR. FUGATE: That is all I'll say, Judge.
18 BY MR. FUGATE:
19 Q If you turn to Page 11, and this is the Fishman
20 affidavit that was signed by you, I believe, on -- you know
21 what, I do need glasses. Can you --
22 A It is March 22nd.
23 Q Of 1994?
24 A It says. Yes.
25 THE COURT: Now, this is an affidavit that you
1483
1 have, and it is signed, and I'm going to assume this
2 is one Mr. Dandar would want to put in if he hasn't
3 already.
4 MR. FUGATE: I think it is in, in that group.
5 I just don't know the number, Judge. And I'll be
6 glad to mark it as a defendant's exhibit for the
7 clarity of the record, and it would be 76? Madam
8 Clerk?
9 THE CLERK: Yes.
10 THE COURT: I'll tell you what. I guess what I
11 was saying is if, in fact, this is one that
12 Mr. Dandar marked, do you remember he had a whole
13 series of them, and he couldn't get them in because
14 she said she would want to see signed versions --
15 MR. FUGATE: Right?
16 THE COURT: Okay, if this is one of those, then
17 I'm going -- and she says, you know, it is hers,
18 then it's been authenticated, then it comes in. So
19 I don't know if this is one of those or not.
20 Mr. Dandar, you'll have to check.
21 You don't have to put it in as your exhibit
22 unless you want to. Because he tried to put all
23 those in as his exhibits.
24 MR. WEINBERG: Why don't we go ahead and mark
25 this one because his were off the Internet and they
1484
1 were --
2 THE COURT: That is fine. What number is this?
3 MR. WEINBERG: 76.
4 THE CLERK: 76.
5 BY MR. FUGATE:
6 Q I would like to --
7 THE COURT: Let's predicate that. You see,
8 ma'am, is that your signature? Because I sure don't
9 know.
10 BY MR. FUGATE:
11 Q If you go to the --
12 THE WITNESS: Yes, it is.
13 MR. DANDAR: Judge, it is Plaintiff's Exhibit
14 24 so we have a cross-reference, as well.
15 THE COURT: It is Plaintiff's Exhibit 24?
16 MR. DANDAR: The one she couldn't identify.
17 THE COURT: Oh, okay. So now Plaintiff's
18 Number 24 is likewise in that came off the Internet
19 if it is compared and it is identical.
20 MR. WEINBERG: Yes, which apparently it is not
21 quite --
22 THE WITNESS: Could we switch this and make
23 this the exhibit, the one that is signed, and take
24 that other one out that has goofs in it?
25 THE COURT: Actually, not, because it would be
1485
1 too confusing for the record. So we'll just leave
2 it as it is.
3 BY MR. FUGATE:
4 Q Well, my question is --
5 THE COURT: But that is not in, Number 24
6 wasn't in. Now it is, but the real one is Number 76
7 for the plaintiff (sic).
8 BY MR. FUGATE:
9 Q I'm going to ask you a question again about your
10 comment about the worst possible impression --
11 THE COURT: I didn't say that well either,
12 Number 76 for the defendant.
13 MR. DANDAR: Right.
14 THE COURT: Okay.
15 BY MR. FUGATE:
16 Q If you'll look, Ms. Brooks, at line -- or
17 Paragraph 20 on Page 11, and I'll read a statement that you
18 made and ask you about it. "I believe that all
19 Scientologists, even current leadership --"
20 THE COURT: Show me where you are reading.
21 MR. FUGATE: Here, Judge, right here.
22 THE COURT: Thank you, I got it.
23 BY MR. FUGATE:
24 Q "I believe that all Scientologists, even the
25 current leadership, are victims of Hubbard's version of mind
1486
1 control, just as I was. These people, including the
2 Scientology attorneys and paralegals who deal with the
3 courts, have no idea how much they are under the coercive
4 influence of Scientology and its leaders. They are utterly
5 fanatical about their dedication and determination to
6 protect Scientology from 'enemies' like my husband and me."
7 Now, you --
8 THE COURT: "Enemies," in quotes.
9 BY MR. FUGATE:
10 Q Yes, "enemies" in quotes. You wrote that and put
11 it in an affidavit, is that correct?
12 A Yes.
13 Q And you don't mean to imply that you think that
14 about Mr. Weinberg, Ms. Yingling, me or any lawyers you are
15 dealing with, correct? Is that just a worst impression type
16 of statement?
17 A Mmm, well, you know, at the time I wrote it, I
18 think that I was of a state of mind to think the worst and
19 to have the worst possible opinion.
20 THE COURT: Is there a difference in -- when
21 you make a comment of Scientology attorneys and
22 paralegals and attorneys who are not Scientologists,
23 I don't know the answer to that.
24 MR. FUGATE: I don't, either.
25 THE COURT: Were you referring there to
1487
1 Scientology attorneys meaning attorneys who are also
2 Scientologists? Or were you referring to any
3 lawyer, whether they are a Scientologist or not, who
4 is defending or prosecuting or being plaintiff's
5 counsel or defendant's counsel for the Church?
6 THE WITNESS: Actually, your Honor, I think I
7 meant people like Mr. Moxon.
8 THE COURT: I wondered if that is what you
9 meant, people who were Scientologists --
10 THE WITNESS: Yes, and paralegals.
11 THE COURT: Not Mr. Moxon specifically.
12 THE WITNESS: No.
13 THE COURT: But attorneys --
14 THE WITNESS: Somebody who might be an attorney
15 and also a Scientologist.
16 BY MR. FUGATE:
17 Q But it was written to cast a negative impression
18 to the reader, and it was used by attorneys that you have
19 already told us about. Is that correct?
20 A Yes.
21 Q And is this one of the affidavits that you had
22 asked Mr. Leipold to withdraw?
23 A I believe this is the -- I'm not sure. But -- I'm
24 not sure. But I believe this is the affidavit that he had
25 filed.
1488
1 Q Well, I'm going to hand you up, if I may, a letter
2 that I think --
3 THE COURT: I thought that was another case. I
4 thought that was the case involving Mr. Wollersheim.
5 THE WITNESS: It was --
6 MR. FUGATE: I'm sorry, I'll let her explain
7 because she knows better than I.
8 THE WITNESS: Mmm, I believe Mr. Leipold had me
9 sign a cover affidavit.
10 THE COURT: Okay.
11 THE WITNESS: And, your Honor, I'm not sure
12 this is the one because I'm not looking at it, but I
13 believe that this is the one.
14 THE COURT: Much like in this case you --
15 Mr. Dandar used an affidavit that you had signed in
16 a previous case with a cover of some sort?
17 THE WITNESS: Yes.
18 THE COURT: Okay.
19 BY MR. FUGATE:
20 Q Then let me hand this next exhibit up and ask you
21 to -- to take a look at it, if you will, and see if you can
22 identify it. I'll give the Court a copy. And this will be,
23 if admitted, 77.
24 I believe this is a letter that is part of the
25 documents you produced.
1489
1 Can you take a quick read of that and tell us what
2 affidavit, if you can, that you are relying -- you are
3 talking about?
4 THE COURT: This was produced pursuant to the
5 notice to produce?
6 MR. FUGATE: I believe it was produced to us
7 and I believe it is in the production. I just don't
8 know what the number is.
9 THE COURT: Okay.
10 THE WITNESS: What is it you want --
11 THE COURT: Was it, Counsel, part of --
12 MR. McGOWAN: I haven't seen it.
13 THE COURT: I don't remember, to be honest with
14 you.
15 MR. McGOWAN: No, this was not part of our
16 production.
17 BY MR. FUGATE:
18 Q Was this a letter you produced to Mr. Rinder?
19 A Yes.
20 MR. FUGATE: I believe it's in our production,
21 but I didn't pull it out, Judge.
22 THE COURT: Okay.
23 MR. DANDAR: Is this 77?
24 MR. FUGATE: Yes.
25 MR. DANDAR: Thank you.
1490
1 BY MR. FUGATE:
2 Q If you look, you say --
3 A I say, "Neither Bob Minton nor I are under
4 pressure from Scientology. What has happened is that after
5 years of telling lies and being used by you and other
6 anti-Scientology lawyers, we find ourselves facing serious
7 legal problems of our own and decided to tell the truth. We
8 have not been intimidated in any way. We just want to get
9 out of this anti-Scientology litigation enterprise that has
10 been fueled by Bob's money and end the lies."
11 Q And that is what you were explaining to
12 Mr. Leipold in response to his April 23rd letter?
13 A Yes.
14 Q I think there was some conversation about. My
15 question, however, was did you -- did you write this letter,
16 by the way? So we can authenticate it and move it into
17 evidence.
18 A Yes.
19 MR. FUGATE: I move it into evidence, your
20 Honor, as Defendant's 77.
21 THE COURT: All right.
22 MR. DANDAR: No objection, but we would like
23 Mr. Leipold's letter that this is responding to.
24 THE WITNESS: And you can also have
25 Mr. Leipold's letter that responded to this letter.
1491
1 MR. DANDAR: That would be fine.
2 MR. FUGATE: I don't have that one but
3 whatever.
4 THE COURT: Do we have the letters that it's in
5 response to?
6 MR. FUGATE: I think there was an unsigned
7 letter --
8 THE COURT: Mr. Minton raised his hands back
9 there.
10 MR. FUGATE: Good, Judge, then we'll have them.
11 But I don't have them, but I'll ask they be produced
12 through Mr. Minton.
13 THE COURT: Fine.
14 MR. FUGATE: All I want to do is ask a
15 question, if I can.
16 THE COURT: You may.
17 BY MR. FUGATE:
18 Q I actually want to direct your attention, if I
19 may, to the second paragraph where you say, "I do not want
20 my declaration withdrawn because of pressure from
21 Scientology. I told you very clearly I want my declaration
22 withdrawn because it is not true."
23 Do you see that?
24 A Yes.
25 Q Did you write that?
1492
1 A Yes, I did.
2 Q Is that in reference to the declaration that we
3 were just reading from, which is the 20 -- whatever day of
4 March in the Fishman case?
5 A Yes. But I think I should clarify that, if you
6 would let me.
7 Q Go ahead.
8 A What I told Mr. Leipold --
9 THE COURT: Now I want to know what declaration
10 we're talking about. Now we can't have somebody
11 saying declaration is not true --
12 THE WITNESS: That is why I want to clarify
13 that statement.
14 THE COURT: I have to know what one it is.
15 THE WITNESS: It is this one, your Honor.
16 MR. FUGATE: That is why I was asking the
17 question, Judge.
18 THE COURT: But she wasn't sure. Do you
19 remember she said, "This is the one, I'm not sure
20 but it is the one, this one."
21 THE WITNESS: Yes.
22 THE COURT: Number 76?
23 THE WITNESS: I believe it is. But I want to
24 clarify that statement because I want you to
25 understand what I mean.
1493
1 THE COURT: All right.
2 THE WITNESS: In the conversations that I have
3 had with Mr. Leipold, I had been very clear with him
4 that I had -- well, that there were issues regarding
5 some of my statements in this affidavit that were
6 not based on any kind of information that I could
7 stand on.
8 In other words, I had gone over this with my
9 attorney. And I don't want to waive my
10 attorney-client privilege, but after having gone
11 over this affidavit with my attorney, I had advised
12 Mr. Leipold that I did not feel that I could back up
13 some of the statements that I had made in this
14 affidavit in testimony. And that I -- and that my
15 attorney had educated me about some legal issues
16 that I had not understood prior. And that based on
17 further information that I now understood, I wanted
18 him to withdraw my affidavit because of exactly the
19 kinds of things that we have just gone over; that,
20 you know, I said that I had personal knowledge, but
21 my personal knowledge was not enough personal
22 knowledge to back up the statement that I made. And
23 to that degree, I felt that it wasn't true.
24 BY MR. FUGATE:
25 Q And you wrote a letter requesting it be withdrawn
1494
1 because, as you say, it wasn't true?
2 A Well, I -- actually, I believe what happened was I
3 made several phone calls to Mr. Leipold, asking him to
4 withdraw it. And then Mr. Leipold sent me a letter. So I
5 believe it was Mr. Leipold who sent the first letter.
6 But he was writing a letter in response to
7 telephone conversations that he and I had.
8 Q Let's move on. The fact of the matter is you
9 wrote the letter, you asked to have it withdrawn and said
10 what you said. Is that correct?
11 A Yes.
12 THE COURT: Well, at some point in time I'm
13 going to ask her, if nobody else does, what about
14 this affidavit is not true. And what about it is
15 true. That is critical to me. I need to know
16 whether she has written an entirely false affidavit,
17 in addition to the false testimony she has given
18 here, or if there is a short small portion of it
19 that has already been --
20 THE WITNESS: Your Honor.
21 THE COURT: So you be prepared for that.
22 THE WITNESS: I can answer you now, perhaps.
23 THE COURT: All right.
24 THE WITNESS: Mmm, as I -- as I said, when I
25 said that, it was in reference to passages in my
1495
1 declaration, such as the one that I just went over
2 with Mr. Fugate.
3 For example -- where was that paragraph?
4 THE COURT: You may not want to do it now. But
5 when we take a break, you just underline, highlight,
6 do whatever you want to do. I want you to read to
7 me line by line. I want to know what isn't true and
8 what is true about this affidavit.
9 THE WITNESS: All right, your Honor.
10 THE COURT: All right.
11 BY MR. FUGATE:
12 Q Well, so we have some perspective on what is
13 happening, the only time prior to today, I take it, that you
14 have been questioned about what is in your affidavits was in
15 that deposition that I just made reference to where Justice
16 Eagleson was the special master, as far as these affidavits
17 that go to the Fishman case and that were in the Wollersheim
18 case and other cases. Is that correct?
19 A I --
20 Q Not the ones that are here?
21 A I may have -- I believe I was deposed more than
22 once.
23 Q All right.
24 MR. FUGATE: Well, I don't intend to go through
25 everything line by line, Judge.
1496
1 THE COURT: Okay.
2 MR. FUGATE: I just pointed out things I had
3 concern with and she --
4 THE COURT: I understand, but once I have
5 somebody saying that something is not true, which
6 was suggested in this letter, I have an obligation
7 to do that.
8 MR. FUGATE: I understand. I just want the
9 Court to know I'm not going through affidavit by
10 affidavit. I don't have the stamina.
11 THE COURT: I understand. I don't, either. I
12 only want to talk about that that is not true that
13 was stated under oath so I can judge the credibility
14 of this witness.
15 BY MR. FUGATE:
16 Q Now, without going through the affidavit -- and I
17 don't even recall the number. I trust the clerk will tell
18 me -- Mr. Lirot introduced a 1994 affidavit that you wrote
19 about meeting Mr. Rinder. We've heard some conversation
20 about that. Is that correct?
21 A Did I write an affidavit?
22 Q Yes.
23 A Yes.
24 MR. FUGATE: And I'll check with the clerk,
25 your Honor, so we have the number for the record.
1497
1 MR. LIROT: 14.
2 MR. FUGATE: It was admitted on May 7th.
3 BY MR. FUGATE:
4 Q And that was the affidavit that you wrote in
5 conjunction with the Fishman case. Is that correct?
6 A Mmm, I don't believe it was ever -- I'm not sure
7 where that ended up being filed.
8 Q Well, you remember the affidavit we're talking
9 about?
10 A Yes.
11 Q I don't need to go through it. I just want to ask
12 you some questions.
13 THE COURT: Which date is that, Counsel?
14 MR. WEINBERG: Why don't you just show it to
15 her.
16 THE COURT: Number 14, I see one right here
17 that has Number 14 on it so it must be that one.
18 MR. FUGATE: It is a '94 affidavit.
19 THE COURT: December 14 of 1994?
20 MR. FUGATE: That is it.
21 THE COURT: I have got it.
22 BY MR. FUGATE:
23 Q Let's -- the Fishman case, can we ask you to tell
24 us, was the Fishman case a case where Mr. Fishman was
25 claiming to have been a Scientologist? Is that the case
1498
1 we're talking about?
2 A That was one of the claims he made. Yeah.
3 Q You, in fact, didn't believe he was a
4 Scientologist, did you?
5 A Mmm, I didn't believe that he had ever done more
6 than buy a lot of Scientology materials. I didn't believe
7 that he was qualified ever to have been allowed to get any
8 auditing or anything like that.
9 Q And the attorney that was handling that case was
10 who?
11 A Graham Berry.
12 Q Did Mr. Berry ask you to read a book Mr. Fishman
13 had written called The Lonesome Squirrel?
14 A Yes.
15 Q And did he ask you to try to verify that that was
16 a book about his experience as a Scientologist at --
17 Mr. Fishman -- Mr. Fishman's experience as a Scientologist?
18 A Yes.
19 Q And after you read it, were you convinced that
20 Mr. Fishman was not a Scientologist?
21 A I was convinced that Mr. Fishman had not had the
22 experiences that he had claimed to have in that book.
23 Q And when you told Mr. Berry that, what was the
24 result?
25 A What was his response?
1499
1 Q Well, did he tell you, "Let's do some affidavits
2 anyway"?
3 A Yes, basically he said, "Well, what could have
4 happened?"
5 Q And this is where I think you told us so long ago
6 about your fabricated scenario of the end cycle. Do you
7 recall telling the Court about how you came up with the
8 scenario that I think you described --
9 A I don't -- go ahead, sir.
10 Q I think you described it as the end of cycle?
11 A That wasn't my term. That was Fishman's term that
12 he used.
13 Q But you wrote an affidavit trying to support that.
14 Correct?
15 A Mmm, I don't recall I was supporting his end cycle
16 thing.
17 Q Well, do you recall -- and this I guess is at a
18 time when you were writing affidavits and you were paid as
19 an expert. Do you recall coming up with the strategy of
20 serving celebrities at the Celebrity Center in 1993 with
21 subpoenas in that litigation?
22 A Yes.
23 Q And that was meant to harass folks, wasn't it,
24 that strategy?
25 A Yes.
1500
1 Q And was that a strategy like the strategy that you
2 have told us about, about bringing in the highest
3 management, trying to cause problems for Scientology? Was
4 that part of the strategy that you and your husband were
5 embarking on in your anti-Scientology consulting business?
6 A Yes.
7 Q And was that the type of strategy that the lawyers
8 that were employing you and paying you money wanted to see
9 occur, in your opinion?
10 A Yes.
11 Q And it was after that case that you first met
12 Mr. Rinder. Correct?
13 A No. I had known him when I was in Scientology.
14 Q You are right. I'm sorry. But the affidavit that
15 you have written about Mr. Rinder occurred after -- or
16 during the Fishman case. Is that correct? After these
17 events had happened and he came to you --
18 A He -- sorry.
19 Q Is that --
20 A It was after the Fishman case was resolved.
21 Q And, in fact, Mr. Rinder had written an affidavit,
22 had he not, and you have, I think, had it posted, or someone
23 had it posted, on the LMT website, is that correct?
24 A Are you talking about the affidavit he wrote about
25 our meeting?
1501
1 Q Uh-huh.
2 A He did write one. Yes.
3 Q And have you had a chance to look at that lately?
4 A Not very much.
5 Q I think it is --
6 MR. FUGATE: Actually, Judge, I think this is
7 one I need to explain. Mr. McGowan and I were going
8 to address it and we got off on --
9 THE WITNESS: Wait, this is my declaration.
10 MR. FUGATE: I'm sorry, Judge.
11 THE COURT: Here is another declaration that is
12 signed.
13 MR. FUGATE: But I think -- I think I gave you
14 the wrong one.
15 THE COURT: Well, let's see if we can get this
16 one in, an authentic declaration. This is one
17 dated -- oh, this one already is in.
18 MR. FUGATE: It's in, Judge.
19 THE COURT: But it's not signed. And so now
20 this is a signed one. So to the extent that the one
21 on December 14th that was pulled off the Internet,
22 and this one, are the same, then you would verify
23 that it's an affidavit of yours, is that correct?
24 THE WITNESS: Yes, your Honor.
25 MR. DANDAR: Is this her affidavit?
1502
1 MR. FUGATE: This is Mr. Rinder's affidavit.
2 THE COURT: This is her affidavit dated
3 December 14 of 1994. It's really in evidence but --
4 in other words, we've already accepted that into
5 evidence because she has gone over it. But now we
6 have it in signed form so there is no question about
7 it being authentic to the extent it matches up with
8 the one pulled off the Internet. To the extent it
9 has errors or what have you, that she indicated can
10 occur during scanning, it is not authentic. Or at
11 least it hasn't been authenticated.
12 THE WITNESS: Yes, your Honor.
13 THE COURT: Okay. This is Mr. Rinder's
14 affidavit. And this you are going to try to
15 introduce?
16 MR. FUGATE: Well, I want to clarify the record
17 on something.
18 This is in the document production, this
19 particular affidavit that we provided to the Court
20 as documents being produced from Ms. Brooks -- or to
21 Ms. Brooks. And I think that what happened there is
22 that I gave this to counsel the day that she was
23 testifying and she went on cross-examination, so I
24 don't really think she saw it, properly so.
25
1503
1 BY MR. FUGATE:
2 Q But it was part of the production, so I'm going to
3 ask you if you just look at it. And can you identify it,
4 and if you can -- if you have to read the whole thing --
5 THE COURT: I'm confused, so we need to stop.
6 Is this part of the packet that you produced to
7 Mr. Dandar and Mr. Dandar said, "I want you to
8 produce to us everything that was provided to her"?
9 MR. FUGATE: Yes.
10 THE COURT: Before she wrote her second
11 affidavit?
12 MR. FUGATE: No. All of the documents were
13 produced to Mr. McGowan and Ms. Brooks is what the
14 production was.
15 THE COURT: Okay.
16 MR. FUGATE: And what I'm saying to you is I
17 did produce this to Mr. McGowan. I think when she
18 said, "I haven't seen it before," somebody asked her
19 about it, I think, correct me if I'm wrong, I gave
20 it to him, she was on cross, so I assume she didn't
21 look at it. Is that right?
22 THE COURT: Well, did you give it to Mr. Lirot?
23 MR. FUGATE: Yes.
24 MR. LIROT: Judge, it was already identified
25 and entered into evidence as 15V as in Victor.
1504
1 THE COURT: Okay.
2 MR. McGOWAN: That is correct.
3 MR. FUGATE: Well, much to-do about nothing.
4 BY MR. FUGATE:
5 Q Do you recognize it?
6 A Yes.
7 Q And it was written prior to your affidavit dealing
8 with Mr. Rinder and offer of money --
9 A Yes.
10 Q -- and all of the things we talked about. Is that
11 correct?
12 A Yes.
13 Q And I think Mr. Lirot asked you if you believed
14 that what you have written there was that you were being
15 offered money to be silenced. And I think you said that you
16 were. Is that correct?
17 A I don't remember that I said that.
18 Q Well, let me ask you this. It was Graham Berry
19 that you were working for in that case, is that correct?
20 A Yes.
21 Q And do you remember Mr. Berry writing a letter,
22 making a $3 million settlement demand, on your behalf, for
23 you and your husband, with regard to that case and
24 withdrawing your support as a Scientology critic? Do you
25 remember that?
1505
1 A Mmm, I -- what I recall is that Mr. Berry wrote a
2 letter basically outlining a global settlement offer which
3 he included us in.
4 Q I want to ask you --
5 MR. FUGATE: If I may approach the witness,
6 your Honor.
7 THE COURT: You may. Did you say million or
8 billion?
9 MR. FUGATE: Million.
10 THE COURT: All right.
11 BY MR. FUGATE:
12 Q If you flip -- do you recognize the letter, by the
13 way, and you are aware of the letter being written?
14 A I recognize the signature and I believe this was
15 the letter that was written.
16 Q The date of the letter is February 16, 1994.
17 Correct?
18 A Yes.
19 Q And Mr. Rinder's affidavit is --
20 A That was later.
21 Q -- written after this letter was provided.
22 Correct?
23 A Well --
24 Q His affidavit was --
25 A Well, his was in October.
1506
1 Q October of 1994 is Mr. Rinder's affidavit
2 describing what he recalled happening. Correct? Look at
3 the schedule at the back of this letter. Do you have that?
4 A Yes.
5 Q It says, "Potential group settlement
6 participants." Do you see that?
7 A Yes.
8 Q Do you see, probably a little better than halfway
9 down the page, it says, "Vaughn and Stacy Young,
10 $3 million"?
11 A Yes.
12 Q And does that indicate that there was a settlement
13 request or demand made by Mr. Berry on your behalf?
14 A Yes.
15 Q Now, at that time, did you have any litigation
16 pending against Scientology?
17 A No.
18 Q The Church of Scientology in any form?
19 A No.
20 Q Did any of the other folks there have any --
21 besides Mr. Geertz and Mr. Fishman, who appears to be the
22 only case that is set out, did anybody else here, Aznarans,
23 Wollersheim, Andre and Mary Tabayoyon, et cetera, did these
24 folks have lawsuits pending when this was signed?
25 A I believe so.
1507
1 Q Did Mr. Berry represent all those folks?
2 A Mmm --
3 Q He didn't, did he?
4 A I don't believe he did. I'm not saying that all
5 these people had any. But I believe perhaps the Wollersheim
6 litigation -- yes, that was still ongoing. I mean, it
7 hadn't been resolved. And I don't know if the Aznarans
8 were.
9 Q He had three asterisks by "High level Scientology
10 defector to be revealed next week," and he wants $5 million
11 for him. So this is the Graham Berry that you were writing
12 affidavits that you have described to the court --
13 A Yes.
14 Q Now, he appears to be the one that was asking for
15 a settlement when there was no lawsuit pending on behalf of
16 you or your husband, correct?
17 A Yes.
18 Q Just to be clear, no money was paid to you by the
19 Church or any entity of the Church at all at that time. Was
20 there?
21 A No.
22 Q And after this settlement demand letter was
23 written, you carried on with your anti-Scientology expert
24 role or testimony role and the critic community soon
25 thereafter developed. Is that correct?
1508
1 A Yes.
2 Q Now, you had testified, and I think there was some
3 parsing as to the exact term and I'm not going to go there,
4 but you said that in these years '94 through to the present
5 time, I think your testimony in your affidavit was your
6 primary source of income was from being a consultant and
7 writing affidavits or providing consulting services.
8 A Yes.
9 Q And do you have any idea approximately what you
10 have been paid over those years for doing that?
11 A Whew.
12 Q And this isn't -- if you have a ballpark, ballpark
13 is fine. I'm just asking if you have an idea what that
14 would amount to over the years.
15 A Perhaps up to $200,000.
16 Q But you were never paid any money by Scientology
17 despite these demands by lawyers. Is that correct?
18 A Yes.
19 THE COURT: Were there more demands? I don't
20 know. Or are we talking about this demand?
21 BY MR. FUGATE:
22 Q Were there any other demands to make --
23 A You mean like this?
24 Q Like the letter?
25 A Mmm, I don't believe so.
1509
1 MR. FUGATE: Then I stand corrected.
2 BY MR. FUGATE:
3 Q The demand by Mr. Graham Berry. And you are not
4 being paid to testify in this proceeding by anyone. Are
5 you?
6 A No. I'm not doing that anymore.
7 Q I understand. Now, is Mr. Graham Berry the same
8 Graham Berry that filed the lawsuit on behalf of the
9 witness, Michael Pattinson, in this case?
10 THE COURT: Which case, Counsel?
11 MR. FUGATE: The wrongful death case.
12 THE COURT: The case I'm in?
13 MR. FUGATE: The case you are in now.
14 BY MR. FUGATE:
15 Q Are you aware of Mr. Dandar listed one of his
16 witnesses a Michael Pattinson?
17 THE COURT: Because I never heard of it before.
18 It doesn't mean anything.
19 A Yes.
20 BY MR. FUGATE:
21 Q You are aware of that? Are you aware Mr. Berry
22 filed a lawsuit on Mr. Pattinson's behalf?
23 A Yes. But did you say that lawsuit was part of
24 this lawsuit?
25 Q No, I said Mr. Pattinson had been listed by
1510
1 Mr. Dandar as a witness in this case?
2 A Yes.
3 Q And have you seen --
4 MR. FUGATE: This is only the caption page.
5 BY MR. FUGATE:
6 Q Have you seen a copy of the lawsuit filed by
7 Mr. Berry on Mr. Pattinson's behalf?
8 A I believe I did at some point.
9 Q He's suing, according to the face page,
10 Mr. Miscavige, as well as Bill Clinton, and John Travolta,
11 et cetera.
12 A Et cetera, et cetera.
13 Q Et cetera, et cetera, et cetera.
14 THE COURT: Madeleine Albright?
15 MR. FUGATE: Madeleine Albright.
16 THE WITNESS: I don't know she was in there,
17 your Honor, but --
18 THE COURT: Yes, she is. I see her.
19 MR. FUGATE: She's on there.
20 THE WITNESS: Just about everybody.
21 BY MR. FUGATE:
22 Q And is this the same Mr. Graham Berry who was
23 ultimately declared to be a vexatious litigant under
24 California law because of the lawsuits that he had brought
25 against the Church of Scientology?
1511
1 A Yes.
2 Q He's the lawyer that first introduced you to
3 testify against Scientology and was one of the ones --
4 THE COURT: Does this have a number? I
5 don't -- I did not write a number down. Did you
6 mean for this to be introduced?
7 MR. FUGATE: You know what, yes, Judge. It
8 would be 79? Madam Clerk?
9 THE CLERK: Did you do 78?
10 MR. FUGATE: There you go, 78, Judge.
11 THE COURT: Do you have any objection?
12 MR. DANDAR: It is relevance, Judge.
13 THE COURT: It may not be, but I'm going to let
14 it in any way. What number?
15 THE CLERK: 78.
16 MR. DANDAR: It's just the first two pages of a
17 complaint.
18 THE COURT: I know, but the truth of the matter
19 is I don't want the whole complaint. Can you
20 imagine how thick it must be?
21 MR. LIEBERMAN: It was actually about 200 pages
22 long.
23 THE COURT: Yes, see. So --
24 MR. FUGATE: I'm sorry, Judge, I think we may
25 be misnumbering because the Graham -- the Graham
1512
1 Berry letter I did introduce, and would that have
2 been 78?
3 MR. DANDAR: 77.
4 MR. FUGATE: 77?
5 THE CLERK: That is 77.
6 MR. FUGATE: I'm sorry, then this is 78. I'm
7 sorry, Judge, I'm having --
8 THE COURT: I have a clerk here. You can see
9 why I asked for a clerk.
10 MR. FUGATE: That is okay. I'm getting radio
11 signals from the back.
12 MR. DANDAR: Sorry.
13 MR. FUGATE: I didn't mean you actually.
14 MR. DANDAR: No. Is 77 the letter from Brooks
15 to Leipold?
16 MR. FUGATE: No, the letter from Graham Berry
17 asking for a $3 million settlement demand.
18 MR. LIROT: Dated February 16, 1994?
19 MR. WEINBERG: You need to look and see what --
20 THE COURT: The letter from Graham Berry has
21 not been introduced.
22 THE CLERK: Right, you didn't say about
23 introducing it.
24 MR. FUGATE: I'm sorry, do you know what is
25 confusing her, Judge, I did correctly speak. We've
1513
1 introduced the Leipold letter.
2 THE COURT: Right.
3 MR. FUGATE: The Graham Berry letter would be
4 78. Then I would have been right, the Pattinson
5 lawsuit would be 79.
6 THE COURT: The Graham Berry letter to whom
7 now?
8 MR. FUGATE: It's to Jonathan LaBelle.
9 MR. DANDAR: Rank hearsay.
10 THE COURT: Sustained. That is not
11 authenticated.
12 MR. FUGATE: I said did she recognize it and
13 was she aware it had been presented.
14 THE COURT: Did she?
15 THE WITNESS: Yes, your Honor.
16 THE COURT: Okay. Then I'll allow it. It is
17 hearsay, but if she can identify it, I'll let it in.
18 MR. DANDAR: Is the complaint page of the 20
19 defendants, is that -- what number is that?
20 MR. FUGATE: That is correctly 79. Right,
21 Madam Clerk?
22 THE CLERK: Yes.
23 MR. DANDAR: Okay.
24 MR. FUGATE: Okay. Did I give you this?
25 MR. DANDAR: Yes.
1514
1 BY MR. FUGATE:
2 Q Do you recognize a copy of the -- which would be
3 80 -- which is the suspension letter for Mr. Berry?
4 A Mr. Fugate, I have never actually seen the letter.
5 I have --
6 Q Maybe this --
7 A -- been told it happened.
8 Q Pardon me?
9 A I had been told it happened, but I have never
10 actually seen this before.
11 MR. FUGATE: Then I would withdraw this, Judge.
12 THE COURT: Okay.
13 BY MR. FUGATE:
14 Q Are you aware Mr. Berry was, in fact, disciplined
15 and suspended by the California Supreme Court?
16 A Yes. I was.
17 Q And is this the same Graham Berry that was a
18 member of or employed by LMT at one time?
19 A He was going to be. I changed my mind.
20 MR. FUGATE: May I have a moment, your Honor?
21 THE COURT: You may.
22 BY MR. FUGATE:
23 Q Did he do work for LMT in Germany, Mr. Graham
24 Berry?
25 A He was supposed to.
1515
1 Q I'm sorry?
2 A He was supposed to.
3 Q Did he bill for work in Germany?
4 A Mmm, I don't believe he ever actually billed for
5 it because he never actually did it.
6 MR. FUGATE: Then 80 would not be -- we would
7 not submit it, your Honor.
8 THE COURT: All right.
9 BY MR. FUGATE:
10 Q Now, Mr. Lirot read to you from a harassment time
11 line that you prepared and posted on the LMT. Is that
12 correct?
13 A Yes.
14 Q And that would have been a time line that was
15 posted for the critic community to read, and it was written
16 for that audience. Is that correct?
17 A Mmm, as it happened, it was. Yes. I had hoped to
18 have another use for it, but that wasn't -- that didn't turn
19 out to be workable.
20 Q And if it had been a accurate harassment time line
21 that recorded both the harassment by the LMT and members, as
22 well as the perceived harassment by the Church, it would
23 have been much longer, correct, with pickets, et cetera?
24 A I think it probably would have been twice as long.
25 THE COURT: I understand that. If it had been
1516
1 accurate? Are you saying that is a law?
2 MR. FUGATE: No, balance.
3 THE WITNESS: Balance. I think she --
4 MR. FUGATE: I think she said at one time when
5 we picketed, they picketed.
6 BY MR. FUGATE:
7 Q I actually should ask you that. Do you remember
8 saying when we picketed the Church, the Church would picket
9 us, words to that effect?
10 A Yes.
11 Q So if this harassment time line were balanced and
12 showed both versions, it would be at least twice as long, is
13 that what we're looking at?
14 A If it were balanced and showed harassment from
15 both sides.
16 THE COURT: Did you all go to members of the
17 Church of Scientology's families and children? LMT?
18 THE WITNESS: Mmm, no.
19 BY MR. FUGATE:
20 Q Well, did you and Mr. Minton go to Bennetta
21 Slaughter's home and picket one night?
22 A Yes, we did one night.
23 Q Bennetta Slaughter is known to be a public member
24 of the Church of Scientology?
25 A Yes.
1517
1 Q And she was Lisa McPherson's employer at AMC, is
2 that correct?
3 A Yes.
4 THE COURT: That is once. As I recall in your
5 time line you talk about several occasions when
6 Mr. Minton's wife and family were somehow harassed,
7 at least you said they were harassed, by members of
8 the Church of Scientology.
9 THE WITNESS: Yes, your Honor.
10 THE COURT: And so while it may not have been
11 twice as long, it would have been longer if you had
12 put in your own harassment or LMT's harassment of
13 the Church and members of the Church.
14 THE WITNESS: Yes.
15 THE COURT: I don't want to read one that is
16 twice as long, so --
17 MR. FUGATE: I'm not going to --
18 THE COURT: I'll just accept that.
19 MR. FUGATE: Judge, I promise you, I'm trying
20 to move through this.
21 THE COURT: I know.
22 BY MR. FUGATE:
23 Q I'm going to ask you to look at --
24 MR. FUGATE: This will be 80, Madam Clerk?
25 THE CLERK: Yes.
1518
1 BY MR. FUGATE:
2 Q -- what I'll offer as Exhibit 80, I think it's a
3 list?
4 THE COURT: No, 80 is something that has been
5 identified, but it has not been received.
6 MR. FUGATE: 81. I'm sorry, I'll hand this up
7 to you.
8 BY MR. FUGATE:
9 Q Do you recognize -- this is a copy, granted, of
10 the list of officers, staff, board of directors, advisory
11 committee, et cetera, of the Lisa McPherson Trust?
12 A It was a list at one time, yes.
13 Q Well, let me put it to you this way. This was
14 published or put out by LMT. Is that correct?
15 A Yes.
16 MR. FUGATE: And I would move it into evidence
17 as Exhibit 81.
18 THE COURT: Is this like a little brochure that
19 would have been folded like this?
20 THE WITNESS: Yes, it had writing on the other
21 side, too, and it was folded.
22 MR. FUGATE: Actually, Judge, I am remiss
23 because I should have introduced it at the beginning
24 because it is kind of a score card of keeping track
25 who folks are.
1519
1 THE COURT: Okay.
2 BY MR. FUGATE:
3 Q In fact, let's just take a look at that, if we
4 can, for a minute.
5 On this particular one, you are the president,
6 listed as the president. Correct?
7 A Yes.
8 Q And you were employed in the -- Mr. Dandar's trial
9 team, is that correct, at one point?
10 A Yes.
11 Q Jesse Prince is listed as the executive
12 vice-president. Is that correct?
13 A Yes.
14 Q And he, of course, was part of Mr. Dandar's trial
15 team. Is that correct?
16 A Yes.
17 Q We have Grady Ward that we've heard about, and
18 he's what you call the webmaster and security person?
19 A Yes.
20 Q Is he a person that was also funded by Mr. Minton?
21 A Yes.
22 Q And he's been funded in other litigation against
23 the Church?
24 A Yes.
25 Q And where is -- well, I'll wait on that a minute.
1520
1 Now we see on the board of directors Peter
2 Alexander. Who is Peter Alexander?
3 A Peter Alexander is a former Scientologist who is
4 the one who -- well, one of the two people who produced that
5 movie, "The Prophet."
6 Q That is associated with Courage Productions that
7 we saw on that wheel thing that Mr. --
8 A Yes.
9 Q -- Lirot handed up?
10 A Yes.
11 Q And skipping down past you again to Patricia
12 Greenway, who is Patricia Greenway?
13 A She's Peter Alexander's partner, one of Peter
14 Alexander's partners in Courage Productions.
15 Q Is she, to your knowledge, part of Mr. Dandar's
16 trial team, these days?
17 A Yes.
18 Q Is that -- well, she was present here earlier, the
19 woman in white with the white dark glasses?
20 A Yes.
21 Q Has a phone that goes off?
22 A Yes.
23 THE COURT: Which phone?
24 MR. FUGATE: The one that plays the tune that I
25 still am trying to identify, Judge.
1521
1 MR. LIROT: The non-Mozart phone, Judge.
2 BY MR. FUGATE:
3 Q She and Mr. Dandar are also folks funded by
4 Mr. Minton?
5 A Yes.
6 Q And how much money, if you are aware, was put into
7 the filming of "The Prophet" by Mr. Minton?
8 A Mr. Minton invested 2 and a half million dollars
9 into that film.
10 Q Is this the Ms. Greenway that recommended
11 hiring -- recommended to you to hire Mr. Merrett into --
12 A Yes.
13 Q -- your -- to represent you on behalf of LMT and
14 you individually at the time?
15 A Yes.
16 Q Jeff Jacobson is who?
17 A He is a member of the Scientology critic
18 community. And he had, and I believe still has, an
19 extensive website about Lisa McPherson. And he was a staff
20 member at LMT.
21 Q Was he ever given an award, to your knowledge, by
22 Mr. Minton? Do you recall?
23 A I don't.
24 Q Who is Rod Keller?
25 A He's another member of the Scientology critic
1522
1 community.
2 Q And has he been paid by Mr. Minton, as well, to
3 your knowledge?
4 A I don't believe so.
5 Q Mr. Jacobson has, however, though, correct?
6 A Well, as an LMT staff member.
7 Q And Kim Krenek is who?
8 A She, I believe, is the niece of Dell Liebreich.
9 Q And Dell Liebreich, of course we know, is the
10 personal representative.
11 Bob Minton we know. Jesse Prince, we know.
12 Gerry Armstrong, is that the same Gerry Armstrong
13 we heard about in, oh, so many days of testimony?
14 A Yes.
15 Q And he was brought into the LMT by who?
16 A Mr. Minton.
17 Q Then we see advisory members Ken Dandar. That
18 would be Mr. Dandar here. Correct?
19 A Yes.
20 Q And is Mr. Dandar the one that incorporated the
21 LMT?
22 A Yes.
23 THE COURT: That has been asked and answered, I
24 believe.
25 MR. FUGATE: I'm moving on, Judge.
1523
1 BY MR. FUGATE:
2 Q We have Mr. Emmons. Do you see Ray Emmons?
3 A Yes.
4 Q Who is Mr. Emmons?
5 A He's a private investigator who used to be a
6 member of the Clearwater Police Department.
7 Q He's a private investigator. Is he employed by
8 Mr. Dandar in the personal -- or wrongful death case, to
9 your knowledge?
10 A I believe so.
11 Q Steve Hassan?
12 A Yes?
13 Q Who is he?
14 A He's a man who -- who has an organization which
15 deals with people who are coming out of cults.
16 Q And was he paid money by Mr. Minton to take part
17 in the LMT?
18 A Well, he wasn't paid money by Mr. Minton to take
19 part in the LMT, but he -- Mr. Minton has paid him.
20 Q Keith Henson, who is he?
21 A Keith Henson is another member of the critic
22 community that Mr. Minton has funded in the past.
23 Q Dan Leipold we heard about. Mr. Oliver?
24 A He's a former Scientologist who is, I believe,
25 supposed to testify in this hearing.
1524
1 Q And he was on the advisory committee of LMT, as
2 well?
3 A Yes.
4 Q Is he part of the critic community, as you call
5 it?
6 A Yes.
7 Q Arnie Lerma?
8 A He's a former Scientologist who is a part of the
9 critic community.
10 Q Margery Wakefield?
11 A She's a part of the critic community.
12 Q Was she also listed as an expert witness for
13 Mr. Dandar in the wrongful death lawsuit?
14 A I believe so. Yes.
15 Q And has she been paid with moneys from LMT, or
16 Mr. Minton, to your knowledge?
17 A Mmm, I believe that is possible.
18 Q And Lawrence Wollersheim we've heard about. He
19 was also on the advisory committee. Is that correct?
20 A Yes.
21 Q And he had been funded, in his litigation, by
22 Mr. Minton, I think we've heard about?
23 A Yes.
24 Q Now, the Internet resources that you list there,
25 these resources, in general, are critic community type
1525
1 resources where you could go to -- I think the majority of
2 them where you could go to find out things about the Lisa
3 McPherson case or other anti-Scientology information?
4 A Yes.
5 Q Now, www.zenu.net, N-E-T. Who do you know is that
6 Internet website associated with?
7 A I believe that is the address for Operation
8 Clambake.
9 Q Would that be Andreas Heldal-Lund's site?
10 A Yes.
11 Q And is this the person -- or the entity, that
12 Clambake, Operation Clambake, is that where the 300,000 came
13 from that went into the LMT funding?
14 A Yes.
15 THE COURT: Immediately thereafter, into
16 Mr. Minton's pocket, is that correct?
17 THE WITNESS: I don't know if it went into his
18 pocket, your Honor, but it went into his account.
19 THE COURT: Kind of a real quick turn through
20 LMT?
21 THE WITNESS: Yes.
22 BY MR. FUGATE:
23 Q Now, there was talk about --
24 THE COURT: Certainly LMT didn't consider it
25 income because it is not on its income tax return.
1526
1 THE WITNESS: Correct.
2 THE COURT: So whatever it was, it wasn't any
3 income or anything to LMT.
4 THE WITNESS: Right.
5 BY MR. FUGATE:
6 Q This particular website, is it a website where
7 there -- and I understand all that free speech, but there
8 are some pretty outrageous, hurtful things posted about
9 Scientology and Scientologists on that website, is that
10 correct?
11 A Yes.
12 THE COURT: I don't see the one on there that
13 we've been looking at -- everything I think I have
14 seen introduced is from one that doesn't seem to be
15 on there.
16 MR. FUGATE: ARS?
17 MR. WEINBERG: That is a different -- you mean
18 on the thing?
19 THE COURT: The stuff you all have been
20 introducing and the one I see mentioned from time to
21 time.
22 MR. WEINBERG: I'm told it's a newsgroup, maybe
23 she can explain, which is different than a website.
24 But beyond that, I don't know.
25 THE COURT: Is that not one of these?
1527
1 THE WITNESS: All right. Talking about
2 ALT.religion.Scientology?
3 THE COURT: Yes.
4 THE WITNESS: These things listed are websites.
5 THE COURT: I'm real stupid. I don't
6 understand it. I just know enough to go in there if
7 I want to see something like searsroebuck.com,
8 C-O-M.
9 I don't know what that is. That is one of
10 these?
11 THE WITNESS: That is one of these.
12 Alt.religion.Scientology is a different thing. It's
13 called a newsgroup, and you access a newsgroup in a
14 different way.
15 THE COURT: So if I went in and typed in
16 ALT.religion.Scientology, something wouldn't come up
17 with the page on it?
18 THE WITNESS: Well, I believe if you asked
19 Mr. Minton that question, he could explain it to
20 you.
21 THE COURT: Okay. So that is why it's not here
22 is because it's something different?
23 THE WITNESS: Yes.
24 THE COURT: Okay. So I can't go in and read --
25 if I wanted to go in and read whatever that is,
1528
1 those postings are, I would not do that the -- the
2 only way I know is to go up here and put in what I
3 want to see and click "Enter" and I get a page.
4 That is not how I would get this site?
5 THE WITNESS: Your Honor, as I understand it,
6 you have to go through one extra step. And I don't
7 know what it is.
8 THE COURT: Okay.
9 THE WITNESS: But Mr. Minton could explain it
10 to you.
11 THE COURT: Okay.
12 MR. WEINBERG: Your Honor, is it possible that
13 we could turn Ms. Brooks' microphone on or get her a
14 little closer to the mike?
15 THE COURT: Sure, I don't know if it is on. I
16 tell you what we can do is it's been about an hour
17 and a half, my court reporter would probably
18 appreciate it, let's take a break. Twenty-minute
19 break.
20 (WHEREUPON, a recess was taken.)
21 ____________________________________
22 THE COURT: All right. Continue.
23 MR. McGOWAN: Judge, if I may interrupt a
24 moment?
25 THE COURT: Yes.
1529
1 MR. McGOWAN: If it please the Court, the Court
2 asked Ms. Brooks to go through, compare the -- those
3 signed affidavits which are in evidence, some
4 apparently are coming in now, to the exhibits -- I
5 think they are, more or less, 20 through 29 that
6 were proffered by the plaintiff but not in evidence
7 and not authenticated.
8 THE COURT: Those that we've seen that have a
9 signature on it.
10 MR. McGOWAN: Right.
11 THE COURT: I don't know if they are. But if
12 they're part of that --
13 MR. McGOWAN: I have got what came from the
14 Internet, and I'm in the process of working with
15 plaintiff's counsel to get the numbers and what is
16 in and what is not in straightened out.
17 And I would just ask, to speed this along, I
18 know at some point they are going to want to call
19 her back and compare these things to see if they
20 match, or to see which is which.
21 If I can be provided a copy of such affidavits
22 as either side has, signed by her, perhaps we can
23 help --
24 THE COURT: Once we get the signed affidavits,
25 we don't need those things off the Internet.
1530
1 MR. McGOWAN: Correct.
2 THE COURT: I assume those can be withdrawn,
3 and the ones that are signed would go in evidence.
4 MR. McGOWAN: Fine.
5 MR. FUGATE: From our side of the equation,
6 I'll locate the ones I'm aware of, and she can look
7 at them with Mr. McGowan and --
8 THE COURT: I wouldn't waste your time
9 comparing them to the Internet. To be truthful, if
10 we have the signed ones --
11 MR. McGOWAN: Fine.
12 THE COURT: -- we'll just take the other one
13 out and agree that is the one that doesn't count,
14 and what is signed is the one that counts. So I
15 wouldn't go through it line by line.
16 MR. McGOWAN: That is fine, too. If somebody
17 has them and it can save some time, we can get this
18 done.
19 THE COURT: Mr. Dandar, if you have any signed
20 affidavits, as you look through your pleadings and
21 things, if you might do the same thing, show them to
22 counsel?
23 MR. DANDAR: Judge, we're, I believe, getting
24 in signed affidavits of Ms. Brooks that will
25 represent the ones that came off the website.
1531
1 THE COURT: All right.
2 MR. McGOWAN: Just so I can get a copy, that
3 will speed things along. Ms. Brooks has --
4 THE COURT: If you can get a copy. But, again,
5 I don't think we need to, at that point, go through
6 the ones that were on the Internet because those can
7 just be withdrawn.
8 MR. DANDAR: And substituted with the ones that
9 are signed.
10 THE COURT: And substituted, so that what is
11 signed is what will be the affidavit.
12 MR. McGOWAN: Exactly. All right?
13 THE COURT: Okay.
14 MR. McGOWAN: I'm just trying to keep her from
15 having to read it on the stand. I know the Court
16 instructed her to read one in the break. And her
17 emotional state is such now, I don't know that --
18 THE COURT: The one I wanted to know, the one
19 she said in a letter she said was not true, that is
20 the one I wanted to know what