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1 IN THE CIRCUIT COURT FOR PINELLAS COUNTY, FLORIDA
CASE NO. 00-5682-CI-11
2
3
4
DELL LIEBREICH, as Personal
5 Representative of the ESTATE OF
LISA McPHERSON,
6
7 Plaintiff,
8 vs. VOLUME 2
9 CHURCH OF SCIENTOLOGY FLAG
SERVICE ORGANIZATION, JANIS
10 JOHNSON, ALAIN KARTUZINSKI
and DAVID HOUGHTON, D.D.S.,
11
Defendants.
12
_______________________________________/
13
14
15 PROCEEDINGS: Defendants' Omnibus Motion for
Terminating Sanctions and Other Relief.
16
CONTENTS: Testimony of Robert S. Minton.
17
DATE: May 17, 2002. Afternoon Session.
18
PLACE: Courtroom B, Judicial Building
19 St. Petersburg, Florida.
20 BEFORE: Honorable Susan F. Schaeffer,
Circuit Judge.
21
REPORTED BY: Lynne J. Ide, RMR.
22 Deputy Official Court Reporter,
Sixth Judicial Circuit of Florida.
23
24
25
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1 APPEARANCES:
2 MR. KENNAN G. DANDAR
DANDAR & DANDAR
3 5340 West Kennedy Blvd., Suite 201
Tampa, FL 33602
4 Attorney for Plaintiff.
5
MR. KENDRICK MOXON
6 MOXON & KOBRIN
1100 Cleveland Street, Suite 900
7 Clearwater, FL 33755
Attorney for Church of Scientology Flag Service
8 Organization.
9
MR. LEE FUGATE and
10 MR. MORRIS WEINBERG, JR. and
ZUCKERMAN, SPAEDER
11 101 E. Kennedy Blvd, Suite 1200
Tampa, FL 33602-5147
12 Attorneys for Church of Scientology Flag Service
Organization.
13
14 MR. ERIC M. LIEBERMAN
RABINOWITZ, BOUDIN, STANDARD
15 740 Broadway at Astor Place
New York, NY 10003-9518
16 Attorney for Church of Scientology Flag Service
Organization.
17
18 MR. MICHAEL LEE HERTZBERG
740 Broadway, Fifth Floor
19 New York, New York 10003
Attorney for Church of Scientology Flag Service
20 Organization.
21
22
23
24
25
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1 APPEARANCES: (Continued)
2
MR. BRUCE HOWIE
3 5720 Central Avenue
St. Petersburg, Florida.
4 Attorney for Robert Minton.
5
6
ALSO PRESENT:
7
Mr. Rick Spector
8 Ms. Sarah Heller
Mr. Ben Shaw
9 Mr. Brian Asay
Ms. Joyce Earl
10
11
12
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14
15
16
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18
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25
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1 THE COURT: We are ready to go now, I hope.
2 You may proceed.
3 MR. FUGATE: Thank you, your Honor. May it
4 please the Court.
5 DIRECT EXAMINATION RESUMED
6 BY MR. FUGATE:
7 Q Mr. Minton, we've gone through generically the
8 funding that you can recall in terms of your
9 anti-Scientology litigation funding. And let me ask you
10 this question. Did there come a time when you wanted to
11 direct your attention to Florida. And, if there was, could
12 you tell us how that happened?
13 A I'm --
14 Q I don't know if that makes sense.
15 A I'm not really understanding your question. I'm
16 sorry.
17 Q Well, did there come a time when you came to
18 Florida and became engaged in any litigation in Florida?
19 MR. FUGATE: I'm trying not to lead, Judge.
20 A Well, you know, I was already engaged in
21 litigation in Florida before I came here with respect to the
22 wrongful death case.
23 BY MR. FUGATE:
24 Q Well, then let me ask you this. How did that
25 happen? How is it you were already engaged in litigation in
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1 Florida?
2 A Well, back in October of 1997 -- well, you know, I
3 have to go back a little bit. You know, obviously sometime
4 in early 1997, I think it was February, this case was filed.
5 And in March, March 9 of 1997 --
6 Q "This case" being the wrongful death case?
7 A The wrongful death case, yes. I met Mr. Dandar
8 for the first time at a meeting at the Holiday Inn in
9 Clearwater out on Route 19. He was having a meeting there
10 with Lawrence Wollersheim. And I was in Wollersheim's room
11 while this meeting took place. And I didn't participate in
12 this meeting other than sitting there listening.
13 You know, Wollersheim had some expertise in terms
14 of litigating against Scientology. I think now he's been
15 involved in it over 20 years. And Mr. Dandar was interested
16 in Wollersheim's slant on how he could, you know, deal with
17 this wrongful death case.
18 And so I just listened to this conversation.
19 Q How is it that you happened to be in Florida in a
20 Holiday Inn room with Larry Wollersheim?
21 A Well, this was a picket that was arranged in March
22 of '97 to --
23 Q A picket of what?
24 A A picket of the Church of Scientology. You know,
25 critics from -- you know, not a lot of critics, but a few
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1 people came to -- to Florida for this picket. And the
2 reason I remember the date of March 9 is this was the day
3 there was an article in the New York Times, a lengthy
4 article in the New York Times, about Scientology's tax
5 exemption. And so that is how I got here for this picket.
6 You know, I met Dandar.
7 I didn't have any further contact with Dandar
8 until about October of 1997 when, Mmm, you know, I contacted
9 him because I was aware that, you know, he was the attorney
10 on this case. I had been previously financing this
11 Wollersheim case, which was, you know, a really kind of slow
12 boat to nowhere, it seemed, at the time.
13 And, you know, in terms of the focal point of any
14 sort of anti-Scientology activities, you know, this case
15 seemed like, you know, the flag -- sort of the banner of the
16 whole anti-Scientology movement. And I offered to give
17 Dandar -- you know, to the estate, $100,000 in October 6, I
18 think it was, of 1997.
19 Q That would be the first check that we referenced a
20 few moments ago, which is the October 6, 1997 --
21 A 93A, I think, right?
22 Q 93A?
23 A Yes. That is correct.
24 Q Now, had you -- and if you could date it, fine.
25 Did you -- when you say that this was sort of the banner
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1 case as far as you were concerned, did it have any appeal to
2 you for that reason? Or if it did, could you explain?
3 A Well, yes, it did. I mean, it had appeal. The
4 appeal was that, you know, here was a chance to really nail
5 Scientology. And, you know, this is -- you know, it looked
6 like -- you know, the way it had been portrayed up to this
7 point, it looked like this was an open and shut case, you
8 know, it wasn't going to take forever to deal with it. And,
9 you know, the absolute maximum amount of negative publicity
10 that could possibly be had anywhere would be through this
11 case.
12 Q Negative publicity against --
13 A Against Scientology.
14 Q And did you have any discussions with Mr. Dandar
15 about what sort of return you thought the case may generate
16 in terms of dollars?
17 A Not right at that point. Later in December of '97
18 I did. And, you know, he was talking in the neighborhood of
19 eighty to a hundred million.
20 Q This is what Mr. Dandar told you he was expecting
21 the case would bring?
22 A What he expected the case was worth.
23 Q And do you recall whether you made similar
24 comments about that to the press, or postings?
25 A I did.
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1 Q And I'm assuming at that point in history you
2 believed that was true?
3 A Mmm, yes. I did.
4 Q Now, when -- well, let's say did there come a time
5 when you entered into any sort of understanding or agreement
6 with anyone with regard to your funding the banner case, as
7 you called it?
8 A Well, you know, starting at the beginning,
9 October 6, 1997 when I sent this check off to Mr. Dandar,
10 you know, he -- he told me at the time, before I sent the
11 check, that he had discussed -- that he had checked with the
12 Florida Bar about this, that this was totally okay, you
13 know.
14 You know, I checked with my own attorney in Boston
15 before sending off this check. He said, "That's fine.
16 Mr. Dandar said you can't have any control over the
17 litigation, you know. You won't receive any confidential
18 information. Fine."
19 And he put that in a letter, you know, after he
20 had talked to the Florida Bar.
21 And the terms of that agreement were that these
22 would be loans to the estate of Lisa McPherson, and they
23 would be repaid only if the estate of Lisa McPherson
24 collected enough money in this case to cover their basic
25 costs and return to me the moneys that I advanced to cover
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1 the costs in the case, exclusive of any interest. There
2 wasn't any interest element to it.
3 Q And that agreement, as you have just described it,
4 who was a party to that communication, as you just described
5 it to the Court?
6 A Just Mr. Dandar and myself, you know. But he said
7 that he had, you know, discussed this with his client, Dell
8 Liebreich, and that, you know, it was okay from her
9 standpoint.
10 I think he told me at the time that he needed to
11 get consent from his client, and he did, according to what
12 he told me.
13 Q And I'm jumping ahead, I know. But did there come
14 a time when you had any discussions with his client, that
15 is, the personal representative, Dell Liebreich?
16 A Yes.
17 Q And can you tell us about that -- I know I'm
18 jumping ahead -- but just for the purpose of where we're at
19 here?
20 A Mmm, well, there were a number of discussions
21 which were principally around the time that -- that the
22 family would come down here for the annual pickets against
23 Scientology, you know, on or about the anniversary date of
24 Lisa McPherson's death, which was December 5th.
25 And there were -- there were another couple of
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1 times, I'm not sure what time of year they were, they were
2 fairly hot -- one of them was a fairly hot time of the year,
3 and they were staying in a hotel in Tampa over near
4 Mr. Dandar's office.
5 And I remember that was the first time that -- the
6 reason I remember that one is that was the first time Ann
7 Carlson or Lee Skelton had seen the autopsy photos, the
8 complete set of autopsy photos, which they asked me to show
9 them.
10 Q You had them?
11 A Yes. This was after they were released. This
12 wasn't prerelease dates.
13 Q And for the record, Ann Carlson and Lee Skelton
14 are who, to your knowledge?
15 A They are Dell Liebreich's sisters. And I think
16 they are -- the three of them and one other person, who I
17 don't think I have met, are the beneficiaries of the estate.
18 Q My question was, though, back to the question, was
19 did there come a time when you had an agreement with either
20 Dell Liebreich or other family members about --
21 MR. DANDAR: Objection. Leading.
22 THE COURT: Go ahead.
23 BY MR. FUGATE:
24 Q -- about your funding the litigation, and whether
25 or not there would be any return?
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1 MR. DANDAR: Same objection.
2 THE COURT: Overruled. You can say yes or no
3 to that.
4 A Yes.
5 BY MR. FUGATE:
6 Q Can you describe to the Court what that
7 understanding or agreement was?
8 A Well, are you just talking about the loans?
9 Q Let me just leave it with a yes. And I'll come
10 back to that. I want to move ahead.
11 A Okay.
12 THE COURT: Well, I would like to know the
13 answer to that.
14 MR. FUGATE: All right.
15 THE COURT: This agreement that you indicated
16 you had with Mr. Dandar about the money that you
17 gave and what would be returned to you over the
18 money that you gave to the estate --
19 THE WITNESS: Yes?
20 THE COURT: -- did you have any agreement with
21 the -- Ms. Liebreich or anybody else about that? Or
22 was that just between you and Ken?
23 THE WITNESS: Well, that was just between me
24 and Mr. Dandar at that time, when we first entered
25 in it.
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1 But he said, you know, he had to get consent
2 from his client to -- to do this, to enter into
3 this, to accept any money from anybody who wasn't a
4 part of the family to finance this case.
5 THE COURT: And I think somewhere in the
6 materials, perhaps it's something that has been
7 filed in this case by the Church, there was a
8 letter -- wasn't there a letter that he sent to this
9 witness?
10 MR. FUGATE: There is -- there is a letter that
11 Mr. Dandar sent. And then there is a handwritten --
12 THE COURT: There is a handwritten letter from
13 Mr. Minton to Mr. Dandar. I think they call it the
14 Kleenex box or something.
15 THE WITNESS: Right.
16 THE COURT: Then there is a letter from
17 Mr. Dandar to Mr. Minton. Do you know what I'm
18 talking about?
19 THE WITNESS: Yes, I do, your Honor. I do.
20 THE COURT: That letter -- I take it in that
21 letter he -- whatever it was he said in that letter,
22 when you got it, did that comport with the
23 understanding that you thought you and Mr. Dandar
24 had made?
25 THE WITNESS: I thought it was a little skimpy,
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1 but I was willing to live with it, yes, the way it
2 was.
3 MR. FUGATE: I'm going to come back and go
4 through those at a point, Judge, unless --
5 THE COURT: All right.
6 BY MR. FUGATE:
7 Q Did you -- did you consider -- how did you
8 consider your money that you were putting into the case from
9 your perspective, sir?
10 A Well, you know, I -- I looked at it as -- as a way
11 to further the entire anti-Scientology activities that I was
12 involved in.
13 Q And did you look at it as an opportunity to get a
14 return on your investment?
15 THE COURT: You really do have to be careful
16 about leading here. You asked him what he thought
17 of it and he told us. Your next question needs to
18 be, "Anything else?" Don't be suggesting things to
19 this witness.
20 MR. FUGATE: I apologize, your Honor.
21 THE COURT: Not especially in the areas that
22 are at issue in this case, this hearing that I'm
23 having.
24 MR. FUGATE: Well, Judge, I actually have
25 got -- I'm going to come back to that point, and I
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1 was just going to ask about --
2 BY MR. FUGATE:
3 Q Really, what did you expect to get with regard to
4 your funding?
5 A Well, as I mentioned -- you know, there were
6 several things. But as I mentioned, you know, the first
7 thing is that this was the sort of flagship case to be used
8 to illustrate how terrible Scientology was. And certainly
9 anyone who was anywhere near this case or ever read about it
10 expected that this would be a huge black eye for
11 Scientology.
12 You know, I made a suggestion to Mr. Dandar
13 shortly after, you know, this October 6, 1997 check, and
14 I -- I think it was December 1 or thereabouts, at the Tampa
15 Club in Tampa when he took me to lunch one day when I came
16 down here for this annual picket, that -- well, because at
17 the time, Scientology was making a lot of statements that,
18 you know, that Ken Dandar was an ambulance-chasing attorney,
19 and Dell Liebreich was a money-grubbing old woman that had
20 no connections to Lisa McPherson, yet they were, you know,
21 trying for this -- you know, the big bucks in this case.
22 And I said, well, you know, it would make sense to
23 diffuse that type of rhetoric that was coming out of
24 Scientology for the estate to agree to give the bulk of the
25 money they get, or substantial part I think is what we
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1 talked about at that time, a substantial part of that money
2 to an anti-cult group, especially one that was focused on
3 Scientology.
4 Q Did you have anything in mind at that time?
5 A I did. I mean, you know, FACTNet was an
6 organization which I was -- had already been elected to
7 their board of directors and went into effect from
8 December 15, 1997, but this was back on December 1, but I'd
9 been elected to it.
10 And, you know, clearly in my own mind, that was --
11 that was the target of the estate's future largesse with
12 respect to the proceeds of this case.
13 Q And I interrupted you. You had discussions with
14 Mr. Dandar about that?
15 A Right. He said this was an idea he already had
16 and that, you know, he was going to discuss this with the
17 family and, you know, he said he would get back to me about
18 that.
19 Q Had you, by this point in time, discussed your
20 feelings about Scientology with Mr. Dandar?
21 A Yes.
22 Q And at this point in history, what were your
23 feelings about Scientology?
24 A Well, you know, I really didn't like Scientology.
25 Q Did you -- did you ask Mr. Dandar what his
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1 feelings were? Or did he share those feelings, I guess?
2 A Mr. Dandar, as recently as March of this year --
3 you know, I don't think there is anybody I know who hates
4 them more than he does.
5 Q Now, back in this point in time we've heard some
6 testimony -- when I say back at this point in time, I should
7 say, generically, I guess, there has been an exhibit that
8 was introduced through Ms. Brooks which was her posting, I
9 think it was described as a harassment time line --
10 A Right.
11 Q -- that came into evidence.
12
13 MR. FUGATE: If I may approach the witness,
14 your Honor.
15 THE COURT: You may.
16 BY MR. FUGATE:
17 Q I'll ask you if you were, during this period of
18 time, making postings of your own?
19 A Yes, I was, pretty much throughout the -- you
20 know, the first postings I ever made were in October, I
21 believe, of 1995. And, you know, they continued to get
22 fairly more frequent up until 2001.
23 Q Well, I recognize that there probably are a lot of
24 Bob Minton postings about Scientology. I have pulled out
25 several and I have got them marked already as 94A through G.
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1 And I would like, if I could, to ask you to identify at
2 least those. I know there are others.
3 If you look at the first, 94A, do you recognize
4 that as a posting that you had placed on the Internet?
5 A Yes.
6 Q And are you saying there in July of 1999 that you
7 were recommending that, "Miscavige be hanged in effigy and
8 burned like a common criminal. Please come and bring your
9 flamethrowers."
10 A Yes, sir.
11 Q See, right after that, the same date? 94B, is
12 that another posting of yours?
13 A It is.
14 Q And similar, except you are directing it to, "John
15 Travolta is a shill for Scientology"?
16 A Right.
17 Q And the same, 94C, is, "Hubbard will be hanged in
18 effigy --" and is that a posting that you made, sir?
19 A Yes, it is.
20 Q And it says, "Hubbard will be hanged in effigy and
21 burned like a common criminal," the same byline or inline,
22 "Come bring your flamethrowers."
23 What was the purpose of those sorts of postings,
24 in your opinion, sir?
25 A Mmm, stirring up the opposition to Scientology.
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1 Q And if you look at 94D, was that also a posting of
2 yours?
3 A Yes. It is.
4 Q And I think this one is dated November of 1999.
5 And in this one you are targeting Mr. Weinberg and
6 Mr. Hertzberg, two lawyers in the case. Is that correct?
7 A That is correct.
8 Q And it basically speaks for itself, I think. But
9 was that also a tactic that you engaged in, in this period
10 of time that we've been discussing?
11 A Yes, sir. And I would also -- just to tell you,
12 you know, that I have apologized to Mr. Weinberg and
13 Mr. Hertzberg about this post.
14 Q I understand. I'm asking you really, taking you
15 back in time, were these postings that you had posted?
16 A Yes. Yes.
17 Q And then here is one dated 26 July, 1998, 94E. Do
18 you recognize that, sir?
19 A Yes. I do.
20 Q Is that a posting that you posted?
21 A Yes, sir.
22 Q And it says -- would you read the two lines out to
23 us?
24 A "On Sunday, Rinder calls and asks if Jesse Prince
25 is on my payroll. Jesse will be devastating for
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1 Scientology. Get ready."
2 Q What was the purpose of that posting?
3 A You know, it was sort of a "get in Scientology's
4 face" type of posting. You know, this was shortly after I
5 had had some meetings with Mr. Rinder and his boss,
6 Mr. Rathbun, in, I think it was, June and July of 1998. And
7 those talks broke off rather unceremoniously, I guess you
8 would say. And, you know, this was soon -- this post was
9 done soon after Jesse Prince contacted Stacy Brooks and I.
10 Q And is this a point in time when you -- it asks if
11 he's on your payroll. Obviously at the time of this posting
12 he was on your payroll. Is that correct?
13 A Well, I think, you know, Mr. Rinder has had a lot
14 longer history with Jesse Prince than I had. And I think he
15 probably just assumed, because he was in contact with Stacy
16 Brooks and I, that we were paying him.
17 And, in fact, that was pretty close to being
18 accurate. I mean, it pretty much started right at this
19 time, sometime a little before this, that Jesse came up to
20 my house in New Hampshire. I believe he was there at the
21 time I posted this. And, you know, he was telling us all of
22 the things that were -- that he thought were going to
23 devastate Scientology, because of his previous senior
24 position back in 1992, I guess -- sorry, five years before
25 that.
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1 Q And did there come a time when you put Mr. Prince
2 in touch with Mr. Dandar?
3 A Yes.
4 Q Do you recall when that was in relation to this
5 posting?
6 A It was sometime shortly after this posting.
7 Sometime in 1998.
8 Q Now, if you would, turn to 94F. And I'm going to
9 ask you if you recognize that as a posting that you made?
10 THE COURT: These are already in evidence, I
11 take it?
12 MR. FUGATE: We'll move them in.
13 THE COURT: We probably ought to make sure we
14 move them in if we are going to keep referring to
15 them. Any objection?
16 MR. DANDAR: No objection.
17 THE COURT: They will be received.
18 MR. FUGATE: 94A through G then. I apologize,
19 Judge. I should have done it one at a time.
20 THE WITNESS: We are on F now?
21 BY MR. FUGATE:
22 Q We're on F.
23 A Yes.
24 Q That is a July of 1999 posting?
25 A That is a post I made.
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1 Q It says: "I called David Miscavige's mother today
2 in Clearwater," puts a phone number in, and also an address.
3 Was that, to your knowledge, an accurate phone number and
4 address for Mr. Miscavige's mother?
5 A I believed it was at the time.
6 Q What was the purpose of putting her telephone
7 number and her address and identifying her as
8 Mr. Miscavige's mother in your posting?
9 A Mmm, trying to piss off Scientology.
10 Q And when you see, down here at the bottom --
11 THE COURT: Well, didn't you also hope, by
12 putting her phone number and address in there, a
13 bunch of people would pick up the phone and call and
14 harass her?
15 THE WITNESS: Well, that was part of that.
16 That wasn't --
17 THE COURT: That is what normally somebody
18 would identify somebody's phone number for, I would
19 think.
20 BY MR. FUGATE:
21 Q The closing lines are: "David Miscavige and his
22 criminal minions need to be on the alert that nobody's
23 schill for his criminal cult is off limits from this point
24 forward, not his mother, his father, his wife, him, and
25 especially not the money lines of Scientology."
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1 Did you write that, sir?
2 A I did.
3 Q What did you mean to cause with that posting?
4 A Well, you know, generally speaking, the money
5 line -- you know, this had a lot to do with this money lines
6 of Scientology, because within -- you know, within at least
7 my understanding of it was that the IAS, International
8 Association of Scientologists, was the principal group in
9 which funds were raised by the Church that were used to --
10 to funnel -- not funnel, but to fund the litigation that the
11 Church of Scientology found itself involved in.
12 Q And the part that you say not his mother, his
13 father, his wife or him were safe, what did that mean?
14 A You know, that was inflammatory. I mean, it was
15 rhetoric, you know. To --
16 Q 94G, if you would look at that. Apparently -- is
17 that your posting, I should ask you?
18 A Yes, it is.
19 Q Apparently, if I read it, you were asked by others
20 that were posting on the same site what was your message.
21 And is that what your message is that you left on her
22 answering machine?
23 A Yes.
24 Q "Loretta, my name is Bob Minton from New
25 Hampshire, telephone number (603)887-4145."
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1 You have changed that by now, have you?
2 A No.
3 Q Oh, sorry.
4 A Still the same.
5 Q Strike that then.
6 "You may not immediately recognize my name, but if
7 you ever read the St. Pete Times, you might remember that I
8 am Scientology's 'Public Enemy Number 1.' I have some
9 messages for your son Davy which I would like to pass along
10 through you. Therefore, please give me a call. Thank you."
11 End of message to Loretta.
12 Did you write that?
13 A I did.
14 Q And did you consider yourself, at that time in
15 July of 1999, to be "Public Enemy Number 1" for Scientology?
16 A I did consider that.
17 THE COURT: You say you did?
18 THE WITNESS: I did, yes. And -- you know, I
19 didn't make this up on my own. I mean, I think NBC
20 Dateline used that line, the St. Petersburg Times
21 used that line, and a German television program used
22 it.
23 BY MR. FUGATE:
24 Q Used the line you were "Public Enemy Number 1" for
25 Scientology?
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1 A Right.
2 Q And you were proud of that, were you not?
3 A At the time, I was.
4 Q And was it your purpose, in the postings and the
5 other postings which we're not going to go through, to be as
6 offensive as you possibly could?
7 A Generally speaking, yes.
8 Q And was that, sir, also, as you understood it, to
9 be the purpose and climate of what we've heard described as
10 the critic community?
11 A Yes.
12 THE COURT: I'm not sure what you call this,
13 this Bob@Minton.org, is that your --
14 THE WITNESS: E-Mail.
15 THE COURT: -- your E-Mail address? There are
16 a lot of postings that have been provided to me
17 throughout the hearing, some by the Church, some
18 perhaps by Mr. Dandar, some in evidence. I take it,
19 when they say at the top "Bob@Minton.org," that
20 would be you? I mean, that is your --
21 THE WITNESS: Yes. Yes, your Honor.
22 MR. FUGATE: May I proceed?
23 THE COURT: Yes.
24 BY MR. FUGATE:
25 Q Now, I think you used the term you wanted to get
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1 in Scientology's face. Did you employ or provide funds to
2 other people to do just that, beside yourself?
3 A Yes, I did.
4 Q Now, do you know -- or if you know, did
5 Mr. Dandar -- was he reading your postings, if you can tell
6 the Court?
7 A I would send him some of them myself.
8 I know that Dell Liebreich had told me that she
9 read absolutely everything that I wrote or anything that was
10 written about me.
11 Q That --
12 A Excuse me?
13 Q I'm sorry, you said Dell Liebreich told you she
14 read your postings?
15 A Yes, that she religiously read everything that I
16 posted on ARS, or anything that was written about me there.
17 Q And for the benefit of the court, what is ARS? I
18 don't know if we got that.
19 A I'm sorry, that is -- we're into this acronyms.
20 But it is the short version of alt.religion.scientology,
21 that newsgroup.
22 Q And is that a site that is critical of
23 Scientology, to your observation?
24 A Yes. Absolutely. I mean, that is -- that is what
25 it is.
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1 Q Now, I would --
2 THE COURT: Although that is the same site, I
3 believe early on in this, where we read some things
4 where it looked like there would be one posting that
5 was critical toward -- toward Scientology, and then
6 there appeared to be a posting that would look
7 like -- I'm not saying it came from the Church but
8 it certainly came from a pro-Scientology person
9 trying to frustrate or be critical of or whatever --
10 in other words, it looked like these things can go
11 back and forth, that others -- anybody can get --
12 THE WITNESS: It's open to anybody, your Honor.
13 It's -- it's principally, you know --
14 THE COURT: The site is an anti-Scientology
15 site, but sometimes there are those who are not
16 opposed to Scientology who post there, as well?
17 THE WITNESS: Well, there are some, yes, that
18 do that to -- you know, there are a number of, you
19 know, current Scientologists who -- you know, if
20 they are not drowned out, you know, they try to go
21 on there and give their views. They are former
22 Church members who still believe in Scientology but
23 practice their Scientology outside of the official
24 organization, you know, who do the same thing. But,
25 you know, it's a pretty wild mob scene and it's hard
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1 to -- you know, it's hard to get both sides of the
2 picture.
3 BY MR. FUGATE:
4 Q My question originally was did you have any
5 discussions with Mr. Dandar about your postings over this
6 period of time from '98, I guess, to 2000, 2001?
7 A Well, you know, he was aware of, you know, my
8 activities on the Internet. And --
9 Q How do you know that, sir?
10 A Because he -- he told me he was. I mean, you
11 know, after we started talking with each other, you know, he
12 was well aware that I was pretty active on the Internet.
13 You know, and I would -- I would always make it a
14 point that if there was something that I thought was
15 important to say, that I thought he should look at, I would
16 always copy him on the message, you know.
17 I mean, he -- at times, he said, you know, "God, I
18 get so many messages from you. I don't know what to do with
19 them all."
20 Q Well, you were pretty prolific on the Internet,
21 were you not, sir?
22 A Yes.
23 Q Did you make postings from the LMT when it came
24 into existence?
25 A Yes, I did.
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1 Q From computers there?
2 A Yes.
3 Q So I would take it your postings ranged from
4 computers there -- do you have computers at your home in --
5 A New Hampshire.
6 Q -- New Hampshire?
7 A Yes. I do.
8 Q Do you have a laptop?
9 A I do.
10 Q So your postings would come from either laptop,
11 home or LMT?
12 A Right.
13 Q Now, did you discuss, in your postings, the
14 wrongful death case?
15 A Pretty -- pretty often.
16 Q And did you discuss your funding of the wrongful
17 death case on the Internet?
18 A Yes. I did.
19 Q And did Mr. Dandar know that, to your
20 understanding?
21 A He -- he certainly did. And, in fact, encouraged
22 it, as far as the money was concerned, because he wanted to
23 make sure that Scientology knew he had money.
24 Q To engage in battle, I guess?
25 A Right.
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1 Q Now, did you have anything to do with Stacy Brooks
2 and Jesse Prince coming to Clearwater to work for
3 Mr. Dandar?
4 A Yes. I did.
5 Q Can you tell the Court what you had to do with the
6 two of them coming. I guess we'll start with Mr. Prince,
7 then go to Ms. Brooks.
8 A Well, I told them both they needed to go down
9 there and work with Ken Dandar. It was -- I mean, they were
10 getting moneys from me. And, you know, they would have gone
11 to Moscow, if required.
12 Q And at the time you told them to come here, as you
13 say, was that, to your knowledge, their sole source of
14 funding, your money?
15 A Mmm, yes. It was.
16 Q And, to your knowledge, did they come to
17 Clearwater and go to work for Mr. Dandar?
18 A Yes. They did.
19 Q And --
20 THE COURT: What do you mean, go to work for
21 him? Are we talking here again about these
22 consultant --
23 MR. FUGATE: I'm going to ask him that, Judge.
24 THE COURT: Well, I think going to work for
25 somebody, being a consultant for somebody, that is
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1 quite different.
2 BY MR. FUGATE:
3 Q Let me ask you. What did you ask them to come to
4 Clearwater to do, as far as you were concerned?
5 A I mean, to do whatever Mr. Dandar wanted them to
6 do. You know, I didn't say go be a consultant. Or be an
7 expert witness. You know, "Whatever Dandar needed you to
8 do, you need to go down there with him and do it."
9 Q And did you communicate with Mr. Dandar about your
10 direction -- or whatever it is you --
11 A He needed them. He made that clear. It was just
12 somebody needed to facilitate getting them here.
13 Q And was it your understanding that he was aware
14 they were being paid by you?
15 MR. DANDAR: Objection. Leading.
16 THE COURT: Sustained.
17 BY MR. FUGATE:
18 Q At the time they came down, you indicated they
19 were -- both Mr. Prince and Ms. Brooks were being paid by
20 you?
21 A That is correct.
22 Q Did you ever communicate their financial status to
23 Mr. Dandar?
24 A Yes. I did.
25 Q And can you tell us when, where, if you recall?
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1 THE COURT: We're going to have to do something
2 here. This just -- I mean --
3 MR. FUGATE: I'm trying to --
4 THE COURT: I know, but being paid by him, I
5 don't get it. One of these people he was involved
6 with romantically, and one of these people was his
7 good friend.
8 Now, paid by, does this mean you were paying
9 them to do work? Or does this mean you were
10 giving -- apparently you must have, I assume, a lot
11 of money.
12 THE WITNESS: I used to.
13 THE COURT: You used to have a lot of money.
14 And were you sharing that with some person who was,
15 I take it, very important to you, Ms. Brooks?
16 THE WITNESS: Yes.
17 THE COURT: And Mr. Prince. Paying them. Are
18 you suggesting you were paying Ms. Brooks for being
19 your companion?
20 THE WITNESS: No. You know, I mean, as far as
21 Jesse Prince was concerned, I was completely
22 supporting him, you know.
23 THE COURT: Right, so you were paying him --
24 you weren't paying him for his work for you; you
25 were paying him -- I take it at that time he was a
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1 friend, you had money, he didn't.
2 THE WITNESS: No, I wasn't paying him because
3 he was a friend. I was paying him because of the
4 work he was doing. Jesse later became a friend.
5 THE COURT: What were you paying him for then,
6 before you sent him down here to Mr. Dandar?
7 THE WITNESS: Well, he came out and worked out
8 at FACTNet. He went out and worked with Dan
9 Leipold. You know, he came up to New Hampshire and,
10 you know, started preparing to, you know, tell
11 everybody all of the secrets that he learned in
12 Scientology, especially --
13 THE COURT: So he was being paid then for his
14 anti-Scientology work?
15 THE WITNESS: Yes.
16 THE COURT: Okay. That you were asking him to
17 do?
18 THE WITNESS: Right. I mean, you know, he
19 didn't volunteer to do this. This is something that
20 he got paid to do.
21 THE COURT: Okay. And the same with
22 Ms. Brooks?
23 THE WITNESS: Well, Ms. Brooks was very active
24 in my anti-Scientology work. With her, it was a
25 little different because of our personal
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1 relationship. You know, I was just making sure she
2 was taken care of financially.
3 THE COURT: Okay.
4 BY MR. FUGATE:
5 Q Well, thanks to those questions, Ms. Brooks and
6 Mr. Prince were being paid to conduct anti-Scientology work,
7 I guess is the best way to describe that?
8 A Yes. That would be accurate.
9 Q Was that -- were those facts communicated to
10 Mr. Dandar?
11 A You know, I think Mr. Dandar knew -- by that time
12 knew everything about my personal relationships and my
13 working relationships with Jesse Prince and others.
14 Q Now, let me ask you this question. When
15 Mr. Prince came to Florida, what did you understand he was
16 doing in Florida?
17 A Working for Mr. Dandar on the wrongful death case.
18 Q And when Ms. Brooks came to Florida, what did you
19 understand Ms. Brooks was doing in Florida?
20 A Working with Mr. Dandar on the wrongful death
21 case.
22 MR. DANDAR: Could we have a date about what
23 we're talking about?
24 BY MR. FUGATE:
25 Q Can you date that, sir?
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1 A Well, I think --
2 Q Start with Mr. Prince.
3 A If I'm not mistaken, Mr. Prince came down here in
4 1998. He certainly was here for a substantial part of 1999,
5 working for Mr. Dandar. And in the year 2000 when -- by
6 this time, you know, the LMT is formed. And, you know, he's
7 working at the LMT, as well, but working for Mr. Dandar
8 principally, you know, for the first, you know, roughly six
9 months of the year 2000.
10 And then I'm not sure exactly why, but Jesse
11 Prince came back. Instead of working every day at
12 Mr. Dandar's office, he started at the LMT's office, and he
13 would go over to Dandar's office on sort of an as-needed
14 basis.
15 Q And how about Ms. Brooks, the same question?
16 A Well, she was down here sometime in 1998, more
17 frequently in 1999, working with Mr. Dandar.
18 And then, once she was at the LMT, you know,
19 beginning of 2000, she was -- for the first few months of
20 2000 she spent an awful lot of time out of the office
21 working with Mr. Dandar. Sort of the same thing Jesse
22 Prince was doing.
23 Q Were you -- were you communicating with Mr. Prince
24 about his work at -- with Mr. Dandar?
25 A Yes.
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1 Q And did you have an understanding whether or not
2 Mr. Dandar knew this was going on, this communication
3 between you and Mr. Prince?
4 A Yes. We had -- in fact, we had disputes about the
5 communication, as well.
6 Q And did you have communications with Ms. Brooks
7 about the work she was doing with Mr. Dandar?
8 A Yes.
9 Q And did you understand that Mr. Dandar knew those
10 communications were going on?
11 A Absolutely.
12 Q I think there was testimony that you I'm sure read
13 that Ms. Brooks said that Mr. Prince and she were your eyes
14 and ears in the office. Is that your understanding?
15 A That -- that was pretty accurate.
16 THE COURT: Did she say Mr. Prince was? Or did
17 she say she was?
18 MR. FUGATE: Well, I may have written it down
19 wrong, but --
20 BY MR. FUGATE:
21 Q Well, let me ask you, so there is no confusion --
22 THE COURT: Well, he really ought to be able to
23 tell us who he thought were his eyes and ears were.
24 But I thought her testimony was she said she was.
25 MR. WEINBERG: Your Honor --
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1 MR. FUGATE: I was going to ask, your Honor --
2 THE COURT: What? What her testimony was what
3 he read in the transcript?
4 MR. FUGATE: No. I was going to ask him his
5 understanding.
6 THE COURT: What he read in the transcript?
7 MR. FUGATE: No, what his understanding --
8 well, let's move on, Judge. It would be easier.
9 BY MR. FUGATE:
10 Q Now, at the time in '98 and '99 when Mr. Prince
11 and Ms. Brooks were here in Florida, were they, to your
12 understanding, working on any affidavits?
13 A Well, I know Jesse Prince was at some stage, he
14 ended up -- I don't know whether he wrote more than one, but
15 he certainly wrote one.
16 Q And in your --
17 A But he also was working -- I don't know whether it
18 was while he was down here, but I tend to think it was, that
19 he was working on affidavits for Leipold in California in
20 connection with the Wollersheim case, or FACTNet, or Lopez.
21 Q And was Ms. Brooks similarly engaged with
22 affidavits out there?
23 A I don't think she's written any affidavits in
24 recent years. But, I mean, she was, you know, active with
25 regards to the attorneys, Dan Leipold, Ford Greene, with
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1 regard to those cases, yes.
2 Q And would this be the subject -- the affidavits
3 being written and used in litigation that you have
4 described, would that be the subject of postings -- Internet
5 postings by you and others in the critic community?
6 A Yes.
7 Q And were those the subject of any communications
8 with you and Mr. Dandar?
9 MR. DANDAR: Leading.
10 THE COURT: See, the problem is he can answer
11 that yes or no when you say "Isn't it true that," so
12 overruled.
13 A I'm sorry, would you ask the question again.
14 THE REPORTER: "Question: And were those the
15 subject of any communications with you and
16 Mr. Dandar?"
17 MR. DANDAR: Leading.
18 THE WITNESS: I'm sorry, I missed the first
19 part of what you said.
20 THE REPORTER: "Question: And were those the
21 subject of any communications with you and
22 Mr. Dandar?"
23 THE WITNESS: Now I'm going to have to ask you
24 to read the one before that, too.
25 MR. FUGATE: I'll try to rephrase it.
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1 BY MR. FUGATE:
2 Q I had asked you were the affidavits that were
3 being written and utilized in the other cases that you
4 described, were those the subject of postings between you
5 and the critic community?
6 A Yes. I'm sorry.
7 Q Then my question was did you -- I don't even
8 remember, whatever the last question was was my question, if
9 you can remember that.
10 A I can't.
11 THE COURT: If nobody can remember it, it
12 probably wasn't very important. So why don't you
13 move to your next one.
14 BY MR. FUGATE:
15 Q Were you in communication with Mr. Dandar about
16 how you wanted the wrongful death case litigated?
17 A Yes.
18 Q And how were you communicating your wishes to
19 Mr. Dandar?
20 A Mmm, verbally.
21 Q Can you describe how?
22 A Yes. You know, soon after the first check that I
23 sent to him back in October of 1997, you know, I posted a
24 message on the Internet a couple of days later and sent him
25 a copy of it, you know, saying that, you know, I wanted
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1 David Miscavige charged with murder.
2 You know, Mr. Dandar -- I either heard or read him
3 testify in this case, or maybe it was in Judge Baird's case,
4 that he was kind of leery of me at the beginning, but when
5 he first -- when he first got this check. But, you know, by
6 the time the check cleared, I can tell you that this guy was
7 no longer leery.
8 You know, I received from Mr. Dandar, within a
9 month of that first check, a draft of the first amended
10 complaint in this case, or what was to be the first amended
11 complaint.
12 And, you know, he was already, even in 1997,
13 trying to add additional parties to the case, you know. And
14 those parties -- I'm not sure whether David Miscavige was
15 named, or whether it was just RTC, but I remember that there
16 was, you know, a draft that was talking about adding
17 additional parties.
18 And, you know, I asked Mr. Dandar, you know, after
19 I'd sent him a copy of this posting on the Internet, as to,
20 you know, why there wasn't any more inflammatory language in
21 the draft.
22 Q Did you get a response?
23 A Well, this thing evolved over -- to use
24 Mr. Dandar's term, this thing evolved over a period of a few
25 weeks. And he eventually put some pretty highly
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1 inflammatory language in what ultimately ended up being the
2 first amended complaint, including the word "murder."
3 Q What sort of inflammatory things did you want him
4 to include in the complaint, from your perspective?
5 A Well, anything that was, you know, going to give
6 Scientology the worst possible light, not just in the case,
7 but just period.
8 Q And were you discussing your wishes with
9 Ms. Brooks and Mr. Prince?
10 A Well, not at that moment. Not at that moment.
11 Because I think I'd only met Stacy Brooks -- well, I met her
12 after that, I believe. But later I did, yeah.
13 Q And as the process evolved that you have been
14 describing as far as communicating what you wished done, is
15 that -- did there come a time in that process when
16 Ms. Brooks and Mr. Prince were here in Florida?
17 A Yes.
18 Q And would you communicate, through them, your
19 wishes?
20 A Well, yes, I did. And principally what those
21 wishes were is more emphasis on the Scientology -- what I
22 referred to as the Scientology aspects of the case. And --
23 Q Did you -- did you understand, as this
24 relationship developed, that there was a trial team?
25 A Yes.
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1 Q And who did you understand, from your perspective,
2 was on the trial team?
3 A Well, Dr. Garko. I don't believe he was on it
4 right at the beginning when they first started coming down
5 here. I don't remember the dates that he sort of got
6 involved in this. But ultimately it was Dr. Garko,
7 Mr. Dandar, Stacy Brooks, Jesse Prince. And, you know, that
8 was sort of the nucleus of it. And there were others that
9 were sort of on the edges of it, including me.
10 Q Did you understand Mr. Dandar to consider you part
11 of the trial team, from your perspective?
12 A Well, you know, based on his sharing of
13 information, you know, I figured that -- I mean, I think
14 anything he shared with them he shared with me.
15 MR. FUGATE: May I have a moment, Judge?
16 THE COURT: You may.
17 BY MR. FUGATE:
18 Q Did that understanding continue up into 2002, sir?
19 A Yes, it did.
20 MR. FUGATE: May I approach the witness, your
21 Honor?
22 THE COURT: You may.
23 MR. FUGATE: I need to approach the clerk,
24 first. This will be Defendant's Exhibit Number 95.
25
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1 BY MR. FUGATE:
2 Q May I ask you to take a look at a copy of a
3 document I placed before you and ask you if you can identify
4 that document.
5 A Yes. This is a letter from --
6 Q Well, can you identify the document?
7 A Yes. I can.
8 Q Is this a document you received?
9 A Yes. It's a copy of it. That is correct.
10 Q A copy of it. And it's two pages. Did you get
11 both pages at the same time?
12 A I did.
13 MR. FUGATE: I would move 95 into evidence.
14 THE COURT: Any objection?
15 MR. DANDAR: It is marked confidential. I am
16 surprised at counsel using a confidential document.
17 THE COURT: Well, it is marked confidential to
18 this man. I don't know why that is. But, I mean,
19 is he part of your trial team? If so I'll sustain
20 the objection. But, if not, which I think is your
21 position, I'll have to overrule it.
22 MR. DANDAR: Well, you are right, Judge, he's
23 not.
24 THE COURT: Overruled.
25
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1 BY MR. FUGATE:
2 Q Did you provide this document to us, sir?
3 A I did.
4 Q And did you receive it on or about March of 2002?
5 A Yes, I did. I think it came by courier. So it
6 probably arrived the day after this.
7 Q Did something come with it?
8 A Yes. A telephone encryption device.
9 Q Had you requested a telephone encryption device?
10 A No.
11 Q Could you read the letter, please.
12 A "Dear Mr. Minton --" well, it starts out --
13 THE COURT: Why do we need this read? Since
14 it's an exhibit, why do we need the whole letter
15 read?
16 BY MR. FUGATE:
17 Q Does the "Re:" line indicate it was in the
18 McPherson versus Scientology case?
19 A Yes. That is correct.
20 Q And does it indicate that it's to -- the purpose
21 of the device is for your use --
22 THE COURT: If we'll have a bunch of questions
23 about it, go ahead and have him read it.
24 BY MR. FUGATE:
25 Q Would you just read it.
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1 A "Dear Mr. Minton: Allow me to reintroduce myself.
2 We met a few years ago, prior to the deposition of Karsten
3 Lorenzen." K-A-R-S-T-E-N, last name Lorenzen,
4 L-O-R-E-N-Z-E-N, pronounced Lorenzen.
5 "I am Mr. Dandar's video production specialist.
6 Ken has asked me to forward the enclosed telephone
7 encryption device to your attention and request that it be
8 used for future conversations between you and other members
9 of the trial team.
10 "While I cannot guarantee this to be a hundred
11 percent solution, I do expect it to go a long way toward
12 keeping 'their' noses out of our business.
13 "Ken has also asked me to find out from you how
14 many other individuals on your end will be needing these
15 devices and to facilitate their distribution.
16 "The invoice enclosed is for our cost and for the
17 cost of shipping.
18 "Please feel free to contact me if you have any
19 questions.
20 "Very truly yours, Rick Spector."
21 Q And on the second page, sir, there is a note. Can
22 you read the note?
23 A The handwritten note on the invoice?
24 Q Yes.
25 THE COURT: Well, he needs to identify that.
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1 BY MR. FUGATE:
2 Q Well, yes, can you identify that was the note on
3 the invoice when you got it?
4 A Yes. This was the invoice that came with that
5 letter. And this was the handwritten note that was on it.
6 And I believe it was in blue ink.
7 Q Can you read what it says?
8 A "You may wish to use money order to preclude
9 trace." Underlined. Then Rick Spector's initials.
10 THE COURT: Why? Did you use this thing? I'm
11 not sure what it is, but I guess it is a phone that
12 scrambles things that maybe folks on a wire tap
13 couldn't hear?
14 THE WITNESS: That is right.
15 THE COURT: So did you believe the Church of
16 Scientology had placed an illegal wire on your phone
17 or Mr. Dandar's phone?
18 THE WITNESS: Well, I -- I didn't think so.
19 But Mr. Dandar felt so.
20 THE COURT: Why did you use it then?
21 THE WITNESS: Well, I never used it, number
22 one. But just let me explain.
23 Back in February when Mr. Dandar came up to New
24 Hampshire for this weekend meeting, you know, just a
25 week or two before this letter, I mean, even coming
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1 from the airport, when I picked Mr. Dandar up, he
2 starts telling me about how, you know, the dome
3 light in my car could be used for a bugging device
4 because it would provide constant power. And, you
5 know, he was totally of the belief that he was being
6 bugged by Scientology, and that if he was being
7 bugged, for sure I was being bugged.
8 So this -- this encryption device was -- it was
9 really for a specific purpose, you know. Dandar
10 wanted to talk about the money that was going to
11 come, and he wanted this thing so that nobody knew
12 about it.
13 And, you know, I didn't ask for this phone
14 encryption device. When it came, it didn't work.
15 It had been taken out of the original box, it had
16 been put in by the factory and changed into some
17 other box. Perhaps Mr. Spector mixed it up or
18 dropped it on the floor. And I had to send it back
19 to the factory to get it to work.
20 Mr. Dandar bought a similar device for his
21 phone at the same time. His didn't work, either,
22 because of the PBX system he had in his office. And
23 his secretary sent it back to the factory, as well;
24 but she didn't send it by overnight mail, she sent
25 it regular mail. And so when I got mine back from
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1 the factory, mine was working, but he -- it took him
2 a while before he got his back. And, you know, by
3 then, we had already dealt with the issue of the
4 money and it was pretty late. And I have never used
5 it since.
6 THE COURT: But I assume even if you want it
7 for a very specific purpose, that is, talking about
8 the money, the only reason why you and I want to
9 have a phone conversation about money, and
10 presumably nobody has illegally put the bug on our
11 phone, when I talk on the phone, it would be
12 perfectly fine, nobody would know about it but you
13 and me.
14 THE WITNESS: I assume so.
15 THE COURT: So I presume there must have been
16 some thought there was an illegal wire tapping going
17 on here. And I certainly get that same information
18 from the -- from reading Ms. Brooks' posting about
19 the harassment, that there --
20 THE WITNESS: Right.
21 THE COURT: -- appeared to be people knowing
22 your every move, the insinuation being someone was
23 listening to your phone calls.
24 THE WITNESS: Well, you know, what we
25 discovered, there are a lot easier ways to do that,
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1 you know, to find out, you know, how people move
2 around, you know, where they're going. I mean, it
3 has been our experience that this is not so
4 difficult to find out. And -- and especially when
5 you have somebody close to you who is providing
6 information that would enable people to monitor your
7 movements more closely. And that is a much more
8 common thing than this phone tap thing which
9 Mr. Dandar was concerned about. And I genuinely --
10 THE COURT: Come on, Mr. Minton. You, too,
11 were concerned that your phones were being bugged,
12 weren't you?
13 THE WITNESS: No, your Honor.
14 THE COURT: You never were?
15 THE WITNESS: I thought about it at times.
16 But --
17 THE COURT: And Ms. Brooks wasn't, either?
18 THE WITNESS: She was not concerned about it.
19 THE COURT: Okay. So neither you nor
20 Ms. Brooks ever believed your phone was being
21 illegally tapped by the Church of Scientology? Is
22 that what you're telling me here today?
23 THE WITNESS: Mmm, I didn't say there was never
24 a time we didn't believe it. But, your Honor, we
25 purchased a very expensive piece of equipment that
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1 would help us to determine if there were bugs down
2 here in this office in Florida. We hired outside
3 people to come in and check. And I say "we," it
4 wasn't me doing this. This was a concern of
5 everybody who was around here.
6 THE COURT: So you weren't concerned, but yet
7 you hired people to come in and sweep your place?
8 THE WITNESS: Well, let me tell you,
9 Mr. Dandar's private eye, Mr. Dandar's private eye,
10 Ray Emmons, swore up and down Ken Dandar's office
11 was bugged, our office was bugged. We got people to
12 come in and check it out. There was never any bugs
13 found, when everybody was sure there were bugs. We
14 even bought an expensive piece of equipment that
15 could detect these types of things.
16 When the LMT closed down, that equipment was
17 sent up to my house in New Hampshire. I have never
18 used it.
19 You know, there is nothing I have ever said on
20 the telephone about the Church of Scientology that I
21 wouldn't expect to end up in the New York Times.
22 You know, I have got nothing to hide from them.
23 THE COURT: Okay. I just wondered why we were
24 sending out the encryption devices.
25 THE WITNESS: Well, as I said, your Honor, I
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1 didn't request this encryption device. Mr. Dandar
2 told me he was going to get these, on the telephone,
3 the day before they were sent. I said fine.
4 THE COURT: Okay.
5 BY MR. FUGATE:
6 Q What did you understand the notation "You may wish
7 to use a money order to avoid a trace" mean?
8 A To preclude trace. Well, you know, I just thought
9 that was a pretty strange statement at the time for
10 Mr. Spector to have written. I mean, it was obviously --
11 you don't want Scientology to find out you are paying for
12 this or that we're buying these things, so maybe you want to
13 use some sort of untraceable money to do it, or untraceable
14 document -- you know, instrument.
15 Q Do you know Rick Spector?
16 A I -- as the letter said, I have met him a few
17 years before. He wasn't somebody that I was familiar with,
18 other than his name.
19 But he was -- you know, in addition to being a
20 videographer, as he says here, he's also Mr. Dandar's
21 security consultant and private investigator, in addition to
22 Mr. Emmons.
23 Q Do you see him present in the court today?
24 A Yes.
25 Q Where is he?
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1 A He's to the right of Mr. Dandar, as I'm sitting.
2 THE COURT: I take it we can assume that he is,
3 indeed, part of Mr. Dandar's trial team.
4 MR. DANDAR: Mr. Spector?
5 THE COURT: Right.
6 MR. DANDAR: Yes. Although he's an independent
7 contractor.
8 THE COURT: Pardon me?
9 MR. DANDAR: He's an independent contractor.
10 BY MR. FUGATE:
11 Q Now, on the subject of phones, when the LMT was
12 formed, were there phones utilized to communicate among the
13 LMT folks?
14 A Yes.
15 Q And what sort of phones were they?
16 A They were Nextel phones, you know, the little flip
17 kinds.
18 MR. FUGATE: While we're looking for that,
19 Judge.
20 BY MR. FUGATE:
21 Q Did you, in your relationship with Mr. Dandar,
22 assist him in his website preparation or anything to do with
23 his website?
24 A Yes.
25 Q And what did you do?
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1 A Well, I just -- you know, I didn't do much. He --
2 MR. FUGATE: May I approach?
3 THE COURT: You may.
4 THE WITNESS: Can I continue?
5 MR. FUGATE: I'm going to give you an exhibit
6 to take a look at. You can go ahead.
7 A Well, he wanted a domain in his own name. And so
8 I registered Dandarlaw.com, I believe, and Dandar.com. Yes,
9 I see Dandar.law.
10 MR. DANDAR: Relevance.
11 THE COURT: Are you addressing me, Counselor?
12 MR. DANDAR: Relevance, Judge. Sorry.
13 THE COURT: All right. Relevance?
14 MR. FUGATE: Your Honor, I think it shows an
15 association between Mr. Minton and Mr. Dandar. And
16 it shows, as the contact -- administrative contact
17 for Dandarlaw.com.
18 THE COURT: I don't know what this is. Do
19 lawyers have their own websites these days?
20 MR. FUGATE: What it is, it's attached, the
21 website that lists the law firm and talks about the
22 lawyers. It --
23 THE COURT: Is this something lawyers --
24 lawyers have?
25 MR. FUGATE: It's something that lawyers have,
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1 as I understand it, your Honor.
2 THE COURT: Okay.
3 MR. FUGATE: I never had one.
4 THE COURT: Nothing here regarding Lisa
5 McPherson?
6 MR. FUGATE: No, except that it's registered by
7 Mr. Minton. The contact point is Bob@Minton.org
8 which you made reference to before.
9 BY MR. FUGATE:
10 Q Let me ask you, Mr. Minton, was there a purpose in
11 trying to get a website started for Mr. Dandar?
12 A Well, Mr. Dandar wanted a domain.
13 THE COURT: I don't see -- I'm not very smart
14 about this stuff. What is a domain?
15 THE WITNESS: You know, when you
16 have www.lisatrust.net, the domain is the Lisatrust
17 part. Dandarlaw is the domain. So it would
18 be www.dandarlaw.com. So he can have his E-mail at
19 Dandarlaw.com or whatever he wanted.
20 But he didn't know how to go about registering
21 a domain. So I registered it for him. Also as I
22 said, another one, Dandar.com.
23 THE COURT: I kind of tend to agree. I think
24 it is kind of obvious Mr. Dandar and this man were
25 friends. He needed help doing some of this, this
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1 man had some expertise, and he did it for him.
2 I'm going to let it in. But the truth of the
3 matter is I'm not sure what the relevance is. So
4 I'll let it in.
5 MR. FUGATE: I just offered it for the -- for
6 the association and the contact, your Honor.
7 THE COURT: Am I right about this, at this
8 point in time when you were doing this, you-all
9 established some sort of friendship?
10 THE WITNESS: Yes. It was just purely a favor
11 to him.
12 THE COURT: Right. This was not -- this was
13 not the Lisa McPherson case or anything like this;
14 this was a friend that wanted a website or domain?
15 THE WITNESS: He wanted a domain. And I just
16 did it for him.
17 THE COURT: So --
18 THE WITNESS: I mean, I paid for it, you know.
19 It wasn't a big deal, whether he reimbursed me or
20 not. But --
21 BY MR. FUGATE:
22 Q How much does something like that cost?
23 A Mmm, I think it's like $40 or $50 a year. I don't
24 know, he had it maybe three years. After our last
25 deposition, I transferred the administrative contact to
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1 Mr. Dandar -- technical contact. I'm sorry.
2 Q I presume the bill, as well?
3 A No, I didn't, actually. But Mr. Rosen or
4 Mr. Moxon was making a big deal out of this so I transferred
5 the technical contact to Mr. Dandar.
6 Q Now, I had asked you about the Nextel phones you
7 used. And --
8 MR. FUGATE: Judge, these are the Nextel bills.
9 And I think maybe what I'll do is wait until the
10 break, give them to the clerk, I'll give a copy to
11 Mr. Dandar, and come back and ask questions about
12 that.
13 THE COURT: What are they?
14 MR. FUGATE: These are the Nextel cell phone
15 bills. And they're going to be a little bit
16 involved in going through.
17 THE COURT: So, in other words, there are going
18 to be dates and phone calls we're going to have to
19 refer to these? Is that the purpose?
20 MR. FUGATE: Yes, your Honor.
21 THE COURT: All right.
22 MR. FUGATE: But I'll come back to them.
23 THE COURT: Well, do you want to do it now if
24 we're to that, and go ahead and get them all in
25 and --
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1 MR. FUGATE: It probably would be a good
2 time --
3 THE COURT: A good time to take a break?
4 MR. FUGATE: Yes.
5 THE COURT: Well, it has been an hour and
6 fifteen minutes. I guess nobody seems to mind when
7 we take a break, so we'll be in recess fifteen
8 minutes.
9 (WHEREUPON, a recess was taken.)
10 THE COURT: All right.
11 MR. FUGATE: Judge, you actually have in front
12 of you the original -- or the file copy of the
13 records. And as I suspected when I looked back
14 there, I'm a copy short. So I'm going to ask a
15 couple questions and move to another area. And then
16 over the break I'll --
17 THE COURT: These are the clerk's copies? The
18 originals?
19 MR. FUGATE: Yes, I'll get additional copies
20 made because --
21 THE COURT: I'd just as soon, unless I really
22 need those, not have that stack.
23 MR. FUGATE: Well, I don't have one either.
24 THE COURT: Okay.
25 MR. FUGATE: So I'm going to move through this,
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1 then move on to another area. And I have given
2 Mr. Dandar a copy.
3 THE COURT: Okay.
4 MR. FUGATE: And it's marked as Defendant's
5 Exhibit 97, I believe.
6 THE COURT: Right.
7 BY MR. FUGATE:
8 Q Mr. Minton, did you receive a subpoena for your
9 Nextel phone records? I'm going to ask you to look at the
10 first paper that is pulled up there. Actually, pull
11 everything that is sticking up. That is what I'm going to
12 ask you about. Nextel, for your records, I should say. I'm
13 sorry.
14 A Yes.
15 Q Does this subpoena appear to be for your Nextel
16 phone records, if you look at the yellow part back there? I
17 think it is on the second or third page.
18 A Yes.
19 MR. FUGATE: May I approach the witness?
20 THE COURT: Yes, you may.
21 A I see it, yes.
22 BY MR. FUGATE:
23 Q Okay. Would you look at the face pages and see if
24 you can identify the Nextel bill as it starts out? Do you
25 see that?
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1 A Yes. I see it.
2 Q And can you identify that as copies of the Nextel
3 phone records that were subpoenaed by the subpoena -- or
4 copy of the subpoena that is there?
5 A Yes. It appears to me to be that. Yes.
6 MR. FUGATE: Unless there is an objection, I
7 would move the composite exhibit in, and I'll just
8 ask a couple questions and move on, and then come
9 back to it if I need to, Judge, when I have more
10 copies of the individual --
11 THE COURT: Any objection?
12 MR. DANDAR: I object to relevance. I need to
13 have -- to make sure that this witness -- if these
14 phone records are in his name or somebody else's
15 name.
16 MR. FUGATE: Well, I'm going to ask to look at
17 the first four months and see who the phone was
18 registered to. And then if you look past that,
19 you'll see it is --
20 MR. DANDAR: If it is registered as I see it on
21 the first page, of Dandar & Dandar, PA, privileged
22 phone records. We did not approve of this at all.
23 THE COURT: Okay.
24 MR. FUGATE: Well, Judge, then I'll come back
25 to them, because they're the Nextel records of LMT
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1 and Mr. Minton. But they were registered there for
2 four months and then were changed. But I'll come
3 back to it.
4 THE COURT: All right.
5 MR. FUGATE: Can I retrieve it?
6 THE WITNESS: Okay.
7 THE COURT: Well, let me see the subpoena.
8 MR. FUGATE: Sure.
9 THE COURT: What does the subpoena say? Does
10 it refer to a phone number? Or does it refer to --
11 THE WITNESS: I believe it was my phone
12 records, your Honor.
13 THE COURT: Okay, the subpoena, that does
14 appear to be directed to the custodian of the
15 records at Nextel Communications. The list of
16 documents to be produced appears to be any and all
17 documents concerning telephone and billing records
18 for Robert S. Minton from November of '99 to
19 December of 2001.
20 MR. FUGATE: Listed to those Nextel phones.
21 THE COURT: I don't see any phones, listed to
22 any Nextel phones.
23 MR. FUGATE: Well, that is what is in the pages
24 that are after that. It identifies the number of
25 phones.
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1 THE WITNESS: I'm sorry, I didn't give that to
2 your Honor. Here is the rest of it. I'm sorry.
3 THE COURT: Well, who is this? Whose is this?
4 It says Dandar & Dandar, PA.
5 MR. FUGATE: Let me ask, if I can.
6 THE COURT: No, I want to know whether this,
7 the subpoena here, is for records, and I can see
8 that -- maybe I should look --
9 MR. FUGATE: Judge, what happened, the subpoena
10 is directed to all phone records. And the phone
11 that -- or the phones, plural, that these go to
12 started out listed to Dandar & Dandar, although they
13 were utilized by LMT, then ultimately switched to
14 Mr. Minton's --
15 THE COURT: I need to ask a question. When a
16 subpoena duces tecum is issued in a case and there
17 is opposing counsel, do you not send them notice?
18 MR. MOXON: Let me explain. This was my
19 subpoena.
20 We said we were trying to subpoena the LMT
21 records. And they had a regular phone and a Nextel
22 phone. All of the LMT people all have their little
23 Nextel phones.
24 Nextel said, "Well, we actually don't have any
25 records for LMT," and they told us that their phones
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1 were listed under Mr. Minton's name.
2 So we sent them a new subpoena under
3 Mr. Minton's name. And you may recall when the
4 records came in, the records -- it was set for a
5 deposition, but the records were sent to me before
6 the deposition occurred.
7 At that point we entered into a stipulation of
8 Mr. Howie and Mr. McGowan and I that these records
9 would all go over to the -- to the discovery master.
10 They all went over to the discovery master and they
11 were looked at and realized these are all of the LMT
12 records.
13 THE COURT: Who is the discovery master?
14 MR. MOXON: That was Mr. Keane. Pursuant to
15 the stipulation, the agreement of the other side,
16 Mr. McGowan representing LMT, said these are all LMT
17 records.
18 THE COURT: Mr. McGowan represented LMT?
19 MR. MOXON: Yes.
20 THE COURT: Well --
21 MR. MOXON: These are all LMT phone records
22 under Mr. Minton's name. Mr. Dandar registered the
23 LMT phone, but these are all LMT phone records.
24 THE COURT: Okay. I guess it doesn't answer my
25 question. My question is, is when you have a
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1 subpoena duces tecum that goes out in a case, do you
2 not give notice to the other side --
3 MR. MOXON: Of course.
4 THE COURT: -- so they can object?
5 MR. MOXON: Of course.
6 THE COURT: Where is the notice that is given
7 to Mr. Dandar on that?
8 MR. MOXON: He got notice. Everyone got notice
9 of it. You may not have the notice with that
10 subpoena that is in your hand, but I can certainly
11 provide it to you. Of course everyone got notice.
12 That is why a motion for protective order was filed
13 after the motion went out.
14 THE COURT: Okay.
15 MR. FUGATE: Judge, I anticipated the questions
16 you were asking. I was going to go back and get the
17 documentation for you and go through it again.
18 THE COURT: Well, when somebody doesn't have an
19 objection, because something appears to be
20 requesting records of somebody, and the next thing
21 you know, law firm records are being produced, and
22 the other side, if they don't know that, there has
23 to be some problem with that.
24 So, Mr. Dandar, was he aware that Nextel was
25 getting ready to dole out his PA, Dandar & Dandar,
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1 PA, phone records to the Church of Scientology?
2 MR. MOXON: They are not his phone records.
3 They are LMT phone records.
4 THE COURT: Well, if it says "Dandar & Dandar,
5 PA." Did anybody ever advise him, for example, of
6 that?
7 MR. MOXON: Well, I actually don't know because
8 we didn't see the phone records until Mr. McGowan
9 authorized them, after reviewing them, to be
10 released to us as LMT's records. So it was only
11 after LMT's counsel conceded these are LMT's
12 records --
13 THE COURT: Well, is this after the LMT and the
14 Church of Scientology were in friendly negotiations
15 where they were trying to cooperate with the Church
16 to bring about a global settlement?
17 THE WITNESS: We were not cooperating at that
18 time, your Honor.
19 MR. MOXON: The motion was filed long ago.
20 MR. FUGATE: I don't have the subpoena to look
21 at the date, Judge. That might help. But --
22 THE COURT: Okay.
23 MR. FUGATE: If it even --
24 THE COURT: Dated February 11 of 2002.
25 MR. MOXON: Yes.
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1 THE COURT: Wasn't there some negotiations
2 going on then?
3 MR. MOXON: No.
4 THE WITNESS: No, your Honor.
5 MR. FUGATE: No.
6 THE COURT: No? Well, I'm not letting you have
7 any records of Dandar & Dandar, PA unless you can
8 show me somehow or another that Mr. Dandar agreed
9 with that. You can't get into a law firm's records.
10 I don't care what anybody says.
11 MR. MOXON: Again, your Honor, these are not
12 Dandar & Dandar, PA phone records. They are LMT
13 phone records.
14 MR. FUGATE: Judge --
15 THE COURT: He objected. I sustained the
16 objection. It is just that simple. Move on.
17 MR. FUGATE: Fine, Judge. That is what we
18 suggest.
19 BY MR. FUGATE:
20 Q Mr. Minton, if I could direct your attention to
21 August of 1999, did you have any meetings with Mr. Dandar in
22 August of 1999?
23 A Yes. I did.
24 Q And can you tell us, to the best of your
25 recollection, where and when?
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1 A I believe it was in Philadelphia on May 26, maybe
2 the night of the 25th and 26th.
3 Q May, or August, sir?
4 A Mmm, I -- I can tell by the date of the check, if
5 I can just get my little thing out, again.
6 Q I had left the exhibits up there, exhibit checks,
7 unless we knocked them off.
8 A Oh, yes, that is the way. Yes. Sorry.
9 Q Except now I have forgotten the number. I think
10 it is 93E.
11 A Oh, yeah. It is on the top. Yes, I'm sorry.
12 That was August.
13 Q And obviously you were referencing the check.
14 Which check are we looking at there, for the record?
15 A It is check 93E, payable to Dandar & Dandar, for
16 $250,000.
17 Q What is the date it was issued?
18 A August 27th. That is the date -- you know, the
19 date that was written on the check.
20 Q Was that the date that you gave it to Mr. Dandar?
21 A I -- I believe I gave it to him on the 26th at
22 night.
23 THE COURT: I'm sorry, what was the year,
24 8/27 --
25 A '99. I didn't have money in my checking account.
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1 And I told him I was going to transfer money in that
2 checking account, so I was going to postdate it by a day.
3 BY MR. FUGATE:
4 Q And can you tell us about the meeting that you
5 had --
6 THE COURT: Would you-all give me just a
7 second. I want to listen carefully, yet I'm trying
8 to deal with something as acting chief, and I'm not
9 having good success in keeping my head in two
10 places.
11 MR. FUGATE: Well, join with me --
12 THE COURT: I'm sorry, this has come up and I
13 really need to take care of it. And as I said, I am
14 acting chief. And I really need to deal with it.
15 And I thought I could maybe listen and deal with it,
16 but I can't because I find myself looking here and
17 I'm not hearing that. And so sometimes I can do two
18 things at one time but --
19 MR. FUGATE: Tell me what you want me to do.
20 THE COURT: I want you to stop and let me take
21 enough time to deal with it. I'm sorry, I hate to
22 give you all another break, but I just need to tend
23 to this. We'll be in recess until -- well, until
24 I'm done.
25 (WHEREUPON, a recess was taken.)
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1 THE COURT: You may be seated. I think I have
2 my mind all in one place.
3 (A discussion was held off the record.)
4 MR. WEINBERG: Going back to the phone records
5 for a second?
6 THE COURT: Yes.
7 MR. WEINBERG: We'll cover it in more detail on
8 Tuesday. I just wanted to explain one thing that is
9 confusing when you look at it.
10 We -- we requested the production from Nextel
11 of the records of LMT, first. And Nextel said they
12 didn't have records of LMT, they had records of
13 Robert Minton. So we requested the production, we
14 subpoenaed Nextel for the records of Robert Minton.
15 And what came back was what is in those folders
16 there.
17 And as a result of that, there were these --
18 there were these motions that were filed both by
19 Stacy Brooks and by Mr. Minton to try to prevent it.
20 There were hearings. Mr. Dandar was part of that
21 process.
22 The records themselves, if you go through them
23 you will see that these are -- even though the first
24 three months of whatever it is, a year and a half or
25 two-year period, the first few bills went to Dandar
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1 & Dandar, the records are not Ken Dandar and Dandar
2 & Dandar records. They are phone records of the
3 people at LMT, including Mr. Minton, Mr. Prince,
4 Ms. Brooks.
5 They had a series -- they had a network of --
6 of Nextel phones. This is this network. That --
7 they are not Mr. Dandar -- Mr. Dandar didn't have
8 one of those as part of these records, or his law
9 firm.
10 After the first three months, the bills in
11 there are then directed to Mr. Minton in care of the
12 LMT, if I'm correct.
13 And the point was, A, there are many important
14 calls in there from people at the LMT, including
15 Mr. Minton, to Mr. Dandar and others.
16 And, secondly, the fact that -- in other words,
17 indicating -- indicating contact, a lot of contact,
18 which obviously is an issue as to what participation
19 or -- or control or involvement Mr. Minton had with
20 regard to Mr. Dandar in the prosecution of the
21 wrongful death case. Oh, five hundred calls, you
22 are going to see.
23 And, secondly, the fact that the first few
24 months were sent to Dandar & Dandar is further
25 indication, I believe, that there was -- that there
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1 was a real -- you know, a relationship between the
2 LMT and the people at the LMT and, you know,
3 Mr. Dandar, which is part of what this hearing is
4 about. That is what it is.
5 We can sort that through on Tuesday, which is
6 fine. But when one looks at these records, these
7 are not Ken Dandar phone records, these are not
8 Dandar & Dandar phone records; these are phone
9 records of Mr. Minton, Ms. Brooks, Jesse Prince and
10 other people at the -- at LMT. That is what they
11 are.
12 THE COURT: Okay.
13 Mr. Dandar?
14 MR. DANDAR: Judge, when you make up a notice
15 of deposition to Mr. Moxon for records and you put
16 on Robert Minton's name, then you cancel the
17 deposition and take the records because they were --
18 the phone company sent them to you ahead of time so
19 they don't have to come to the deposition, that
20 violates the rule.
21 I go by the rules. And my name is on the first
22 three months of those depositions, I was never
23 noticed for that. It is improper. It is the first
24 time I saw it, by the way.
25 But what Mr. Minton will explain to you, and I
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1 would assume accurately, LMT did not have credit.
2 So I did them a favor, I added them onto my account,
3 and then I separated that account.
4 But this whole procedure of how they went about
5 obtaining those records without notice to me was
6 improper. And that is why I objected to it.
7 Now, maybe just a technical violation of the
8 rules, which it is a violation of the rules, but I
9 objected to it because they weren't following the
10 rules then, and now they're trying to make it an
11 exhibit. And I just brought it to your attention,
12 but it's probably a whole bunch of argument about
13 nothing. I brought it to your attention because it
14 is a technical and it's a real --
15 THE COURT: Well, one of the things that
16 concerns me, and one thing I'm obviously trying to
17 protect here, as I would any lawyer, is anybody else
18 getting a hold of a lawyer's phone records that
19 would reveal, presu