Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida
Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500
Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500
656
1 IN THE CIRCUIT COURT FOR PINELLAS COUNTY, FLORIDA
CASE NO. 00-5682-CI-11
2
3
4
DELL LIEBREICH, as Personal
5 Representative of the ESTATE OF
LISA McPHERSON,
6
7 Plaintiff,
8 vs. VOLUME 6
9 CHURCH OF SCIENTOLOGY FLAG
SERVICE ORGANIZATION, JANIS
10 JOHNSON, ALAIN KARTUZINSKI
and DAVID HOUGHTON, D.D.S.,
11
Defendants.
12
_______________________________________/
13
14
15 PROCEEDINGS: Defendants' Omnibus Motion for
Terminating Sanctions and Other Relief.
16
CONTENTS: Testimony of Robert S. Minton.
17
DATE: May 22, 2002. Afternoon Session.
18
PLACE: Courtroom B, Judicial Building
19 St. Petersburg, Florida.
20 BEFORE: Honorable Susan F. Schaeffer,
Circuit Judge.
21
REPORTED BY: Lynne J. Ide, RMR.
22 Deputy Official Court Reporter,
Sixth Judicial Circuit of Florida.
23
24
25
657
1 APPEARANCES:
2
MR. KENNAN G. DANDAR
3 DANDAR & DANDAR
5340 West Kennedy Blvd., Suite 201
4 Tampa, FL 33602
Attorney for Plaintiff.
5
6 MR. KENDRICK MOXON
MOXON & KOBRIN
7 1100 Cleveland Street, Suite 900
Clearwater, FL 33755
8 Attorney for Church of Scientology Flag Service
Organization.
9
10 MR. LEE FUGATE and
MR. MORRIS WEINBERG, JR. and
11 ZUCKERMAN, SPAEDER
101 E. Kennedy Blvd, Suite 1200
12 Tampa, FL 33602-5147
Attorneys for Church of Scientology Flag Service
13 Organization.
14
MR. ERIC M. LIEBERMAN
15 RABINOWITZ, BOUDIN, STANDARD
740 Broadway at Astor Place
16 New York, NY 10003-9518
Attorney for Church of Scientology Flag Service
17 Organization.
18
MR. BRUCE HOWIE
19 5720 Central Avenue
St. Petersburg, Florida.
20 Attorney for Robert Minton.
21
22
23
24
25
658
1 ALSO PRESENT:
2
Mr. Rick Spector
3 Ms. Sarah Heller
Mr. Ben Shaw
4 Mr. Brian Asay
Ms. Joyce Earl
5 Ms. Donna West
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
659
1 THE COURT: Mr. Fugate, you may proceed.
2 MR. FUGATE: Your Honor, I just handed you a
3 courtesy copy of a memo that I filed, and I have
4 filed one with the clerk and gave one to Mr. Dandar.
5 You don't obviously -- it is not necessary to read
6 it now. I was just calling it to your attention.
7 THE COURT: What is it?
8 MR. FUGATE: It's on the Bar rule, actually,
9 that has been under discussion.
10 THE COURT: Okay.
11 MR. FUGATE: May I proceed, your Honor?
12 THE COURT: You may indeed.
13 THE WITNESS: Your Honor, may I say something
14 to you?
15 THE COURT: You may.
16 THE WITNESS: I wanted to revisit where we left
17 off, if I could.
18 THE COURT: All right.
19 THE WITNESS: Mmm, I actually thought about
20 this some last night, and I thought about it more at
21 lunchtime. And I just wanted to try to explain a
22 few more things concerning the motivation
23 involved --
24 THE COURT: All right.
25 THE WITNESS: -- in telling a lie under oath in
660
1 an affidavit.
2 Mmm, you know, this case was not a Florida
3 case. It wasn't a national case. It was an
4 international case. You know, everywhere that I had
5 traveled in '99, 2000, you know, in Germany and
6 France and meeting with German government officials,
7 French government officials and people in the
8 anticult area in both churches and, you know,
9 private groups, in Germany particularly, you know,
10 the Lisa McPherson case was a case that was
11 something that would damage Scientology beyond
12 anything else that had ever happened before, even
13 going back to, you know, the 1980 or '79 stuff.
14 And --
15 THE COURT: What was that?
16 THE WITNESS: Well, this is when this former
17 Guardian's Office in Scientology, there were some
18 sort of rogue agents, if you want to call them that,
19 who infiltrated U.S. government offices in
20 Washington --
21 THE COURT: That is what brought about the
22 arrests and convictions?
23 THE WITNESS: Yes, your Honor.
24 THE COURT: Okay.
25 THE WITNESS: And, you know, another thing that
661
1 was very personal to this case, and, you know, I'm
2 not particularly keen to open up myself a lot of
3 times.
4 You know, Lisa McPherson was locked up -- this
5 is what I believe. This is something that happened
6 to me when I was 16 years old, except I was, you
7 know, locked up in a mental institution. And I
8 remember even back in March of '97 the first time I
9 saw the autopsy photographs of Lisa McPherson, you
10 know, the bruises on her hands and arms and the cuts
11 on her hands; it was something that really caused me
12 a lot of personal anguish because the same thing
13 happened to me, you know. I wasn't being -- you
14 know, I was in an institution.
15 And, you know, I remember when I went back to
16 Boston, this was in March of '97, you know, I had
17 something then that I haven't had since, but it was
18 a very serious thing for me and can give you an idea
19 how much this thing impacted me personally.
20 You know, I had what was best described as a
21 panic attack and ended up at Mass. General Hospital.
22 And, you know, this -- this case, as I said, was --
23 it was something that everybody who was against
24 Scientology thought would be the case that damaged
25 Scientology beyond repair.
662
1 There is no question that the money was an
2 issue in this case, your Honor, and the money, once
3 this organization was damaged beyond repair, was
4 basically to put the nails in their coffin.
5 And I remember carrying picket signs that said,
6 you know, "Wake for Scientology. Funeral to
7 follow."
8 And, you know, what happened, your Honor, is
9 that -- and this is why it is difficult to talk
10 about, is, you know, completely contrary to what I
11 thought I got into this for, you know. I was
12 involved in a lot of hate and bigotry toward
13 Scientology, a lot with a lot of other people, and a
14 lot of those other people were counting on me,
15 because of the money, to put an end to this
16 organization that we all thought was evil.
17 Back in 1998 when I was on an NBC Dateline
18 program, you know, I remember how so many people,
19 including Mr. Dandar, were happy that the concept of
20 Scientology being evil was introduced to 20-odd
21 million people here in this country.
22 Earlier in 1998 there was a national television
23 show in Germany. And in that one, you know, when
24 the German people came here to Florida or came down
25 from New York to do the film -- Mmm -- you know,
663
1 this was one of the occasions where I had the
2 opportunity to bring Mr. Dandar into the story in
3 the Lisa McPherson case.
4 And, you know, your Honor, it's -- it wasn't
5 just about the money. There was a lot of people who
6 counted on the money that I had to help do more than
7 just fight this organization but destroy it.
8 And I'm just saying that this is a complex
9 issue, your Honor, and it's not something that --
10 you know, that I can say that this case was about
11 the money, for me. It was a lot of other things, as
12 well.
13 And, you know, not only am I ashamed about what
14 I've done with this Court, but, you know, some of my
15 behavior has been reprehensible. And you said it
16 yourself in court the other day, that there was no
17 room for this hate and bigotry. I believe you, your
18 Honor, and I have been wrong to be part of that.
19 And so I just wanted to say that to you to give
20 you a little bit further insight into my mind and
21 why this case and why lying for Ken Dandar or -- you
22 know, with my own free will. You know, Mr. Dandar
23 didn't sit up there and force me to sign that
24 document. I did it of my own free will, your Honor,
25 and I'm sorry I did it. I'm sorry I have told other
664
1 lies in this case.
2 And that is what I just wanted to add.
3 THE COURT: All right. Thank you.
4 You may continue.
5 MR. FUGATE: Thank you, your Honor.
6 BY MR. FUGATE:
7 Q Well, directing your attention back to 2000, the
8 year 2000, and we have gone over Defense Exhibit 81, but are
9 the folks that are generally listed there, are those a
10 collection of critics that you were working with that you
11 just explained to the Judge about that were all part of LMT
12 and part of what you were trying to do that you have just
13 explained to the Judge?
14 A They were part of -- you know, they were sort of
15 the American -- North American type group, yeah.
16 Q And during this period of time, were you -- I ask
17 you, were you getting awards for your fight against
18 Scientology? You, Mr. Minton?
19 A Yes, sir.
20 Q Had you given any awards to Mr. Dandar with --
21 A Yes.
22 Q -- with regard to this case?
23 A Yes. As a representative of FACTNet, he was given
24 the FACTNet Man of The Year Award for his bravery in
25 fighting Scientology.
665
1 Q And fighting Scientology, as you described it, was
2 that the subject of -- or did you have conversations with
3 Mr. Dandar about that?
4 A Yes.
5 Q Now, I had asked you -- and I got myself out of
6 sequence -- but I'm just going to ask you, I placed up on
7 the witness stand there an excerpt of a deposition. And I'm
8 going to ask you if you would just take a look at that and
9 ask if that refreshes your recollection as to the date that
10 you gave the deposition.
11 MR. FUGATE: I'm not going back through it,
12 Judge. Just to point us back in time.
13 A Yes. Yes, May 24, 2000. I recognize that.
14 BY MR. FUGATE:
15 Q And in that deposition do you recall giving a
16 great deal of testimony under oath about what you understood
17 the agreement with the family and with Mr. Dandar to be
18 about the bulk of the proceeds of the settlement or verdict
19 in the wrongful death case?
20 A Yes, sir.
21 Q And was it after that deposition -- and I think
22 the date there is May 24, 2000 -- was it somewhere
23 thereafter that you had the meeting you described before
24 lunch?
25 A The backtrack meeting?
666
1 Q Yes.
2 A Yes, it was sometime after this deposition.
3 Q Now, in May of --
4 THE COURT: Is there a 5/4 and 5/24?
5 MR. DANDAR: No.
6 MR. WEINBERG: No.
7 MR. FUGATE: No. It is 5/24.
8 THE COURT: Okay. I think the tab in the book
9 I have said 5/4, but the deposition says 5/24.
10 MR. FUGATE: That could be an error. It's
11 5/24.
12 THE COURT: Okay.
13 BY MR. FUGATE:
14 Q And let me just ask, the deposition, sir, was that
15 being taken by Mr. Moxon, Rick Moxon?
16 A Does it -- it was in this case?
17 Q Uh-huh.
18 A Yes. It was Mr. Moxon.
19 Q And was Mr. Dandar present at that deposition?
20 A He was.
21 Q All right. And after that is when you had the
22 conversation -- I'm not going to ask you to go back through
23 that again -- with Mr. Garko -- Dr. Garko and Mr. Dandar?
24 A Well, it was with Mr. Dandar. Dr. Garko came to
25 the office at the same time.
667
1 Q I'm sorry?
2 A I believe he was present when Mr. Dandar talked
3 about backtracking. I don't think Mr. Garko said anything
4 about it.
5 Q I'm not trying to interject him. I understood he
6 was there. So my question is who was present in this
7 conversation?
8 A I think just those three: Me and Dr. Garko and
9 Mr. Dandar.
10 Q Now, in May -- I put up there 93 -- and I think it
11 is 93E -- the $500,000 UBS check.
12 A Yes.
13 Q Is that the correct number?
14 A 93 --
15 Q G?
16 A -- G. It looks like a "G." It could be an "E,"
17 but --
18 Q That is my handwriting.
19 Do you recall how you gave that check to
20 Mr. Dandar?
21 A Yes.
22 MR. DANDAR: Asked and answered.
23 THE COURT: Sustained.
24 BY MR. FUGATE:
25 Q Well, let me ask you this. What is the date of
668
1 the check?
2 A May 1, 2000.
3 Q So that was prior to the deposition that we just
4 discussed in May, May 24, 2000. Correct?
5 A That is correct.
6 Q And at that point in history, can you tell us why
7 you gave -- or why you provided Mr. Dandar with a check that
8 was different than the other checks that you had been
9 providing to him?
10 MR. DANDAR: Asked and answered.
11 THE COURT: Overruled.
12 A Well, first of all -- okay, just -- your question
13 first was why this type of check as opposed to any others?
14 BY MR. FUGATE:
15 Q Uh-huh.
16 A Well, Mr. Dandar said he wanted to be able to hide
17 the amount of money he had from Scientology to take this
18 case to trial. And that was one of the reasons.
19 The second reason was that he wanted to cut back
20 on the payments that he was making to some of his employees.
21 And he mentioned Dr. Garko and Thom Haverty by name.
22 Q What did he say about that, if you recall?
23 A Well, that he was, you know, not going to tell
24 them he had this money, and, you know, say, because he
25 didn't have any money, he was going to have to cut back on
669
1 the monthly retainers or whatever payments he was making to
2 them on a regular basis.
3 And so he asked, "Make sure you don't tell anybody
4 like Dr. Garko or Thom Haverty that you gave me this money."
5 And he asked that -- you know, that the money
6 be -- you know, asked if I could do it in a way that the
7 money couldn't be traced back as having come from me
8 because, again, you know, the whole issue of my financial
9 involvement in the case was something that he wanted to, you
10 know, sweep under the carpet, to avoid the -- the
11 allegations in court that, you know, Minton was putting all
12 this money in as an investment and controlling this case or
13 whatever.
14 There was a lot of allegations from Scientology
15 flying in the court at that time. So he wanted it done in
16 such a way that it wouldn't be known.
17 Q Was there a meeting at which the check was
18 provided to Mr. Dandar?
19 A Yes. There was.
20 Q Where did that take place?
21 A It took place at the -- what was then the Bombay
22 Bicycle Club on Gulf-to-Bay just on the Tampa side of Route
23 19. You know, on the Tampa side of the Clearwater Mall.
24 Q Who selected the site?
25 A Mmm, I believe I suggested it. Mr. Dandar said,
670
1 "Let's meet at a place in between," you know, the office at
2 33 North Ft. Harrison and his office in Tampa.
3 I said, "Okay, well, how about the Bombay Bicycle
4 Club?"
5 He said, "Okay. That works for me."
6 Q Was anybody present when you handed the 93G,
7 $500,000 UBS check, over?
8 A No. Mr. Dandar and I had gone off to a little
9 small bar table in the bar, as opposed to sitting in the
10 restaurant. And we were the only ones in the bar except for
11 a bartender at the bar, who was maybe 12, 14 feet away from
12 where we were sitting. The bar area was 12 or 14 feet away
13 but it was a long bar.
14 Q Is there any question in your mind that he
15 understood the check came from you?
16 A There is absolutely no question in my mind.
17 Q Now --
18 THE COURT: This is the $500,000 check?
19 MR. FUGATE: Yes. 93G, Judge.
20 THE COURT: Could I have just a minute here?
21 Where is that -- I want to look at the affidavit.
22 MR. WEINBERG: Which one?
23 THE COURT: Mr. Minton's. I got it.
24 THE WITNESS: If I could just add one thing,
25 your Honor.
671
1 THE COURT: You may.
2 THE WITNESS: I mean, obviously there was no
3 doubt that I gave the check to Mr. Dandar. But --
4 because I physically handed it to him. But there
5 was also no doubt in my mind that he understood,
6 based on his request, that the money was coming from
7 me.
8 BY MR. FUGATE:
9 Q And did there come a time, after the meeting at
10 LMT with Dr. Garko and Mr. Dandar --
11 THE COURT: Wait a second. I have got to ask a
12 question here, I guess.
13 MR. FUGATE: Sure.
14 THE COURT: Because I'm a little confused here.
15 I have got -- this little tab I have said 5/4/01 for
16 this deposition, but the deposition date is 5/4/00.
17 MR. DANDAR: 5/24.
18 MR. WEINBERG: 5/24.
19 THE COURT: 5/24/00?
20 MR. WEINBERG: Yes.
21 THE COURT: Mr. Minton, you indicated this
22 affidavit -- you didn't indicate, but it is signed
23 December 13 of 2000?
24 THE WITNESS: That is right, your Honor.
25 THE COURT: When was it that Mr. Dandar
672
1 indicated to you that you had to back off this
2 agreement?
3 THE WITNESS: Backtrack --
4 THE COURT: Backtrack.
5 THE WITNESS: -- from the statements about the
6 agreement. Sometime after this deposition.
7 THE COURT: Sometime after this deposition?
8 THE WITNESS: Yes. Not -- not long after it.
9 THE COURT: You are sure it wasn't before it?
10 THE WITNESS: Mmm, I'm sure.
11 THE COURT: All right. Let me ask you a
12 question. Your deposition, Page 223, beginning with
13 Line 1, "Have you talked to Dell Liebreich about
14 what would happen to the hoped-for proceeds in this
15 case?
16 "Answer: No.
17 "Question: Have you had any discussion with
18 her about money coming to the Lisa McPherson Trust?
19 "Answer: No.
20 "Question: It's never happened?
21 "Answer: No.
22 "Question: Have you talked to anyone in the
23 family about money coming to the Lisa McPherson
24 Trust arising out of the hoped-for proceeds of this
25 case?
673
1 "Answer: No. No.
2 "Question: Have you talked to anyone in the
3 family about the potential proceeds of this case
4 going to a 'anticult' organization?
5 "Answer: No."
6 THE WITNESS: Well, your Honor, I thought in
7 this deposition that I affirmed the agreement.
8 THE COURT: Well, I guess I should ask you, do
9 you recall giving -- being asked those questions and
10 giving those answers?
11 THE WITNESS: Mmm --
12 THE COURT: Do I have the wrong deposition?
13 MR. DANDAR: You have the right deposition,
14 Judge.
15 MR. FUGATE: The portion that I was referring
16 to is 391, 392, 393 -- Pages 393 through 394.
17 THE COURT: That is very nice, Mr. Fugate, but
18 the pages I'm referring to are Pages 223 --
19 MR. FUGATE: I understand. I'm just telling
20 you the pages that I handed up were a different part
21 of the deposition. I don't know what you have got
22 there. I just --
23 THE COURT: Well, it doesn't matter whether you
24 do. It matters whether he does. He said in this
25 deposition dated 5/24/00 there was no deal. No
674
1 agreement.
2 MR. WEINBERG: Lee, here.
3 THE COURT: Continue.
4 Do you recall, sir, those questions and
5 answers?
6 THE WITNESS: I don't. Obviously, if they're
7 in there, I must have said it.
8 THE COURT: It was a long deposition and it's
9 quite possible there is more than one thing said.
10 As a matter of fact, it looks like it was a
11 multi-day deposition, not unlike other things I have
12 seen in this particular case. When you read the
13 entire deposition, you don't always get the same
14 answers to the questions when they're asked five and
15 six different times.
16 THE WITNESS: Right.
17 THE COURT: But that series of questions and
18 that series of answers --
19 THE WITNESS: I heard you read them.
20 THE COURT: And as I said, I don't know because
21 this is just information that has been provided to
22 me. But here is the front page of that deposition.
23 THE WITNESS: I think it's the same one.
24 MR. FUGATE: Judge, I'll show you --
25 THE COURT: Just let me finish this, then you
675
1 can show me whatever you want.
2 THE WITNESS: Yes. That is the same one.
3 THE COURT: I just came across it and I thought
4 I would --
5 THE WITNESS: Yeah.
6 THE COURT: Okay. So you agree that is what it
7 says on that -- that page?
8 THE WITNESS: That is what it says, your Honor.
9 THE COURT: Okay. Go ahead, Mr. Fugate.
10 MR. FUGATE: Well, Judge, I'll hand up to you
11 the section I was referring to. And I have given it
12 to him. And I'll ask him if he recalls that
13 testimony.
14 MR. DANDAR: Page numbers?
15 MR. FUGATE: Yes. Here it is.
16 BY MR. FUGATE:
17 Q Do you recall being asked if you had had those
18 discussions about the bulk of the payment or the -- however
19 it is described, the vast amount of the settlement or
20 verdict being provided to the Lisa McPherson Trust, and you
21 indicated that conversation was with Mr. Dandar, not with
22 the family?
23 A Yes.
24 Q And did you indicate -- do you recall stating in
25 that deposition that you had that conversation in 1998 or
676
1 1999 with Mr. Dandar?
2 A Mmm, say that again? I didn't follow you.
3 Q Well, do you -- let me just ask you. Would you
4 take a look at the testimony that I sat up there and just
5 make sure you recall giving that testimony?
6 MR. FUGATE: Rather than read it, Judge.
7 Whatever --
8 A You mean the whole thing?
9 MR. FUGATE: Well, here, Judge, Page 391, Line
10 18.
11 BY MR. FUGATE:
12 Q "Question: On January 31, 2000 you appeared on a
13 talk show, 1270 AM WXYT Detroit --
14 "Answer: Uh-huh.
15 "Question: -- where you said, and I quote,
16 'Family who I have been supporting in the civil lawsuit have
17 agreed that when and if they prevail against the Church of
18 Scientology in this lawsuit, they will donate a very
19 substantial amount of the proceeds of the lawsuit to this
20 organization called the Lisa McPherson Trust."
21 Your answer was: "Correct."
22 Do you recall giving that testimony there?
23 A I do.
24 Q And then I think -- well, "Question: Do you
25 remember saying that?
677
1 "Answer: That's correct. Yes.
2 "Question: So how much have you agreed with them
3 that they will donate to the Lisa McPherson Trust if they
4 prevail in the lawsuit?
5 "Answer: I haven't had any direct discussions
6 with them about it.
7 "Question: Did you -- where did you get this
8 information that they were going to donate a substantial
9 amount of the proceeds of the lawsuit to the Lisa McPherson
10 Trust?"
11 Your answer was: "Mr. Dandar."
12 Do you remember those questions and giving those
13 answers?
14 A Yes.
15 Q Then the question I stopped on, "What year did he
16 tell you that?
17 Line 23, Mr. Dandar: "Answer: '98 or '99."
18 Do you recall that question or that answer?
19 THE COURT: Is that after the question on Page
20 16, "When did he tell you that?
21 "Answer: I don't remember."
22 MR. FUGATE: I'm sorry, Judge?
23 THE COURT: Same page, Line 16, "Question:
24 When did he tell you that?
25 "Answer: I don't remember."
678
1 MR. FUGATE: It is.
2 THE COURT: Then Line 23: "What year did he
3 tell you that?
4 "Answer: '98 or '99.
5 MR. FUGATE: Then it goes on.
6 BY MR. FUGATE:
7 Q But, at any rate, were we talking about the same
8 deposition the Court asked you about, and this deposition?
9 A Yes.
10 MR. DANDAR: I object. I think 395 is the most
11 telling of all of it.
12 THE COURT: You can certainly make your point
13 when it is your turn to make argument.
14 MR. FUGATE: May I proceed, your Honor?
15 THE COURT: Give me just a minute.
16 MR. FUGATE: Sure.
17 THE COURT: Okay, you may go ahead.
18 BY MR. FUGATE:
19 Q And so the record is clear, the conversation about
20 the backtracking was a week or two after this deposition
21 that we've just been discussing here?
22 A Well, sometime shortly after, I don't know whether
23 it was a week or two or a day, but it was soon after.
24 Q Were there any other discussions that you can
25 recall now, from that week or two or three period of time,
679
1 up to the time that you got the affidavit that we just
2 discussed before lunch, about the problems with the
3 connection of the Lisa McPherson Trust, your funding and the
4 lawsuit?
5 A I don't remember a specific conversation. But
6 there were general conversations on that subject frequently.
7 Q Were there any conversations wherein there was
8 discussion, and that would be, I'm talking about,
9 conversations with you and Mr. Dandar about trying to stop
10 the Church's inquiry into your funding?
11 A Well, yes. With regards to that check. But that
12 was -- that was earlier in May.
13 Q Well, after the -- after the Plaintiff's -- excuse
14 me -- Defendant's Exhibit 111, the affidavit you indicated
15 that you signed, was executed --
16 A Right?
17 Q -- did you have any discussions with Mr. Dandar
18 about his using that in pleadings to stop discovery? Do you
19 understand my question?
20 A No, I didn't have any discussions about that.
21 MR. FUGATE: We'll go ahead and go to the first
22 video clip. I'm going to show a video clip of the
23 breach deposition and ask him if what he says is
24 accurate.
25 THE COURT: You are not going to do that. You
680
1 are going to ask him questions in court. And if you
2 want to impeach him from a deposition, you may do
3 that. You may not put deposition testimony in
4 without asking him a question and see whether he
5 answers the same way. If he does, you don't use the
6 deposition. If he doesn't, you may impeach him from
7 the deposition.
8 BY MR. FUGATE:
9 Q Do you recall being called on to testify in the
10 breach case in October of 2001?
11 A Yes. I remember that.
12 Q Do you recall, prior to going to that deposition,
13 having any meetings with Mr. Dandar about that deposition?
14 A Mmm, yes.
15 Q Can you tell us what you remember about the
16 meeting?
17 A He had come over to the LMT's office. And we left
18 there in his car. I don't remember whether we were going to
19 dinner or something. But he asked me about the meeting that
20 never happened. That is not my phrase. That was his
21 phrase, "the meeting that never happened."
22 And I think he asked me, "Do you remember -- do
23 you remember the meeting that never happened?"
24 I said no.
25 And he laughed quite vigorously and he said,
681
1 "That's a good answer, you know, remember -- remember that
2 answer."
3 Q Do you remember any other conversation that you
4 had with him before the deposition?
5 A In the breach case?
6 Q Uh-huh. The deposition was October 11 and 12 of
7 2001. Mr. Rosen took the deposition.
8 A You know, I would like to refer to my affidavit
9 because I think there is a lot of dates here that -- that I
10 just want to refresh myself --
11 Q Why don't I do what the Judge suggested and I'll
12 read you questions and answers and ask you if you recall
13 those questions and answers. Is that --
14 THE COURT: No, you need to ask him a question
15 and you need to let him answer. And if he answers
16 it differently from the way he answered in the
17 deposition, then you may use the deposition to
18 impeach him. Do not start reading from somebody's
19 deposition.
20 MR. FUGATE: It's his deposition, Judge.
21 THE COURT: I understand that. I don't care
22 whose deposition it is. You don't use a deposition
23 until somebody denies saying something.
24 MR. FUGATE: May I have a moment, your Honor?
25 Judge, I'm not seeking to impeach him. I'm
682
1 going to ask him if he gave the testimony, was the
2 testimony --
3 THE COURT: Ask him what testimony he gave.
4 BY MR. FUGATE:
5 Q Do you recall being questioned by Mr. Dandar in
6 the breach deposition?
7 A On cross-examination. Yes.
8 Q Yes?
9 A Yes.
10 Q Do you remember him asking you about whether or
11 not there was any kind of agreement of any nature, source or
12 kind between the Lisa McPherson Trust and the Lisa McPherson
13 estate?
14 A Yes.
15 Q And do you remember telling him, in essence, there
16 was none whatsoever?
17 A That's right.
18 Q And he asked again, "Are you sure there is no
19 agreement at all?"
20 And your answer was "No."
21 A Right. That is correct.
22 Q Was that answer -- were those two answers true at
23 the time that you gave them?
24 A Not in my mind.
25 Q And does that refer to the agreement that we
683
1 discussed before lunch in terms of you had signed the
2 agreement saying that there was no --
3 A Signed the affidavit.
4 Q Signed the affidavit saying there was no
5 agreement, and are these questions that were asked of you --
6 do you recall them being asked of you by Mr. Dandar?
7 A Yes. This was, you know, now the secret
8 agreement.
9 Q Do you remember being asked in that deposition by
10 Mr. Dandar --
11 MR. DANDAR: Objection to the form. This still
12 isn't appropriate.
13 THE COURT: I know. It isn't.
14 MR. FUGATE: To ask him if he remembers being
15 asked about a question and giving an answer?
16 THE COURT: I'm sorry, I didn't know what you
17 were going to say. Go ahead.
18 BY MR. FUGATE:
19 Q Do you remember being asked by Mr. Dandar -- and I
20 won't read the question -- but something to the effect that,
21 "Did you have any input whatsoever in the adding David
22 Miscavige to the lawsuit," and you answering, "No." Do you
23 remember a question like that by Mr. Dandar?
24 A I remember that.
25 Q And an answer "No" by you?
684
1 A I did answer "No."
2 Q Was that true, sir, at the time you gave it?
3 A It wasn't true.
4 Q Do you remember any questions by Mr. Dandar about
5 whether or not you had paid any witnesses in the case, and
6 you answered "No."
7 I think it was qualified, "I'm not talking about
8 plane fares or hotel accommodations, something like that
9 that went into their pocket, he was talking about payments
10 to witnesses in the Lisa McPherson case."
11 And you answered "No."
12 A Yes. I remember that.
13 Q Was that answer true at the time that you gave it
14 in this deposition?
15 A Oh, no. You know, the way I answered it --
16 THE COURT: What page are you on, Counsel?
17 MR. FUGATE: I was on Page 634 of that
18 deposition, your Honor.
19 A The way I answered it "No" was that, you know, I
20 didn't pay witnesses to give testimony. You know, any -- I
21 didn't tell people to go in and lie about something.
22 That's -- you know, I was obviously paying the witnesses,
23 but --
24 THE COURT: 634?
25 MR. FUGATE: Yes, Judge. Actually, I read
685
1 from -- or was referring to, for your Honor's
2 purposes, 628 -- Page 628, Page 629, Line 5 through
3 8. Although I didn't ask about it, the same subject
4 matter is covered at 631 and 632.
5 THE COURT: What is the question that you just
6 asked him about regarding the witnesses, paying
7 witnesses? That doesn't seem to be on Page --
8 MR. FUGATE: 634.
9 THE COURT: Oh.
10 MR. FUGATE: I will go on, your Honor.
11 THE COURT: I'm not sure what his answer was
12 about that.
13 What you are suggesting, Mr. Minton, is that
14 you thought the question was being asked as to
15 whether you were paying somebody to testify in a
16 certain way?
17 THE WITNESS: Yes.
18 THE COURT: And -- and is that true today, you
19 did not do that?
20 THE WITNESS: Mmm, I never asked anybody to
21 testify in a certain way. No.
22 THE COURT: So you didn't say to any witness in
23 this case, "I'll give you money if you'll go say X,
24 Y or Z"?
25 THE WITNESS: No, I didn't.
686
1 THE COURT: Okay.
2 MR. FUGATE: May I have a moment, your Honor?
3 THE COURT: You may.
4 BY MR. FUGATE:
5 Q During the period of time -- let me skip ahead
6 here -- beginning in October of -- let me get my date, make
7 sure I'm correct -- November of 1997 through February 26,
8 2002 were you aware that Mr. Dandar filed motions to prevent
9 discovery into your finances, sir?
10 A Yes.
11 Q On your behalf?
12 A Right.
13 MR. DANDAR: Objection. Leading. But it's too
14 late to object.
15 THE COURT: Well, I suppose that is something
16 you wanted. To this very day you don't want to
17 answer those questions. Right?
18 THE WITNESS: That's right, your Honor.
19 THE COURT: So if he was doing that, you are
20 not saying now this -- I mean, you wanted him to do
21 this. Right?
22 THE WITNESS: Well, I did want him to do it. A
23 lot of times I didn't know about it but I did want
24 him to do it.
25 THE COURT: Okay.
687
1 MR. FUGATE: This will be 119, it will be a
2 composite.
3 THE COURT: 119?
4 MR. FUGATE: 119. Yes. I just have a couple
5 questions about this, Judge.
6 BY MR. FUGATE:
7 Q This is 119.
8 A Okay.
9 MR. FUGATE: The first one, Judge, I have
10 marked as 119A, is a motion dated November 21, 1997.
11 BY MR. FUGATE:
12 Q Were you aware Mr. Dandar had filed a motion for
13 protective order to prevent you from being deposed about
14 making any payments, which was the original $100,000?
15 A This is November of '97?
16 Q Yes.
17 A Mmm, I remember after the first deposition, I
18 think he said he was going to try to get Judge Moody to put
19 a stop to this.
20 Q And going all of the way to the last one, which is
21 November -- excuse me -- February 26 of 2002, were you aware
22 that Mr. Dandar had filed a motion for protective order and
23 sanctions to prevent the discovery into the Dresdner Bank
24 records?
25 A Yes. I was aware of that. This was -- this was a
688
1 topic of conversation in New Hampshire, the need for
2 Mr. Dandar to do more -- this was Ms. Brooks primarily, you
3 know, advocating this, that he had to do more to protect me
4 from this discovery.
5 Q And was that a part of discussions that you had --
6 MR. FUGATE: Judge, they are part of the
7 record. I just asked him to look at them for
8 reference sake. I don't know that we need to burden
9 the record with them. They are already in.
10 THE COURT: All right.
11 BY MR. FUGATE:
12 Q Was this part of conversations -- or do these
13 motions reflect conversations about stopping discovery into
14 the funding so the connection in the funding could not be
15 discovered?
16 A That was a large issue, yes. And, you know, I
17 know that there were numerous motions filed about it.
18 Whether I knew about each one at the time, I'm not sure.
19 THE COURT: Was there a ruling on this?
20 MR. FUGATE: Do you want to address that, Rick?
21 MR. MOXON: That was granted, your Honor.
22 THE COURT: The motion for protective order?
23 MR. MOXON: No, motion for protective order was
24 denied, but there were limitations put on.
25 You recall, we had a hearing, and the Court
689
1 signed an order that put some limitations, but it's
2 not been pursued. The subpoena had been withdrawn
3 out in California, so it has not been pursued.
4 MR. DANDAR: Judge, this only had to deal with
5 checks written to me or to my law firm or the estate
6 out of this bank account. It wasn't on behalf of
7 Mr. Minton anywhere. And I don't think -- when they
8 came into court and said, "Oh, we don't want checks
9 to Mr. Dandar," then nothing happened.
10 MR. MOXON: That is not accurate. But, in any
11 event, the subpoena has not issued to Dresdner Bank.
12 THE COURT: Well, I guess I would like to see
13 the order.
14 MR. FUGATE: We'll get it over the break, your
15 Honor.
16 THE COURT: All right.
17 BY MR. FUGATE:
18 Q In the --
19 THE COURT: I mean, the truth of the matter is
20 before you had this change of heart and now have
21 decided that, indeed, that there was some sort of an
22 attempt to -- some sort of an illicit, illegal,
23 improper thing going on here, you were trying to
24 protect the Court and the public, and Scientology,
25 in particular, from having access to what your money
690
1 was, weren't you?
2 THE WITNESS: Well, Scientology, particularly.
3 THE COURT: And why was that?
4 THE WITNESS: Well, as I said, your Honor,
5 these -- you know, these things -- I don't know of
6 each and every thing that Mr. Dandar filed in
7 respect to this. Any of these things. I mean, I
8 have seen some of them.
9 THE COURT: Forget that.
10 THE WITNESS: Okay.
11 THE COURT: You -- you did not want
12 Scientology, the Church of Scientology, to know
13 where your money was or how much you had, did you?
14 THE WITNESS: Mmm, well, that was certainly an
15 issue for me, yes. You know, from -- you know, once
16 the -- you know, in the whole history of this
17 involvement in this, once Scientology basically
18 turned the legal system -- you know, used the legal
19 system to start coming after me, that was a very
20 uncomfortable time, that is for sure.
21 You know, this is all part of, you know, how
22 they used the litigation to come after me. And, you
23 know, I was very uncomfortable with it, yes, your
24 Honor.
25 THE COURT: And, again, you didn't want them to
691
1 know how much money you had or what bank accounts
2 you had or -- I am not saying there was anything bad
3 in the purpose there; I'm saying there are a lot of
4 people that wouldn't want anybody to know much about
5 their money or their bank accounts or what have you.
6 But you certainly didn't want Scientology to have
7 access to your bank records, did you?
8 THE WITNESS: That's right.
9 THE COURT: And beyond just the fact that most
10 of us just don't want anybody to know our personal
11 business, did you have other concerns?
12 THE WITNESS: Mmm --
13 THE COURT: Specifically about the Church of
14 Scientology having access to your bank accounts and
15 your bank records and how much money you had?
16 THE WITNESS: That was the principal concern.
17 THE COURT: I mean, you lived with Ms. Brooks
18 at this time, did you not? I mean, during the --
19 THE WITNESS: Yes.
20 THE COURT: All right.
21 THE WITNESS: Yes, your Honor.
22 THE COURT: Ms. Brooks, I'm sure, has told us
23 in court that many of her affidavits were true, and
24 you certainly were a part of the anti-Scientology
25 movement. I don't know if this is true or not, but
692
1 it was certainly believed that Scientology would --
2 would go after somebody who was against them, right,
3 with everything they had?
4 THE WITNESS: Well, for anybody who was, you
5 know, doing something serious against them, yes.
6 THE COURT: Which you would have been --
7 THE WITNESS: Classified?
8 THE COURT: -- classified?
9 THE WITNESS: Yes. For sure.
10 THE COURT: I mean, Ms. Brooks filed a bunch of
11 affidavits in a bunch of cases suggesting what some
12 of those things would be?
13 THE WITNESS: Right.
14 THE COURT: You were aware of that. Right?
15 THE WITNESS: You know, I don't think I've read
16 any of her affidavits, to be honest with you -- oh,
17 no, I probably did, back in 1995 I probably read
18 some of them, before I met her.
19 THE COURT: Well, did you have a concern that
20 if the Church of Scientology had access to your bank
21 records, that the Church of Scientology would use
22 that against you with the income tax people?
23 THE WITNESS: Mmm, you know, I didn't believe
24 that the Church of Scientology had the capability to
25 access all of my bank records.
693
1 THE COURT: But they sure did if they got the
2 Court to give them to them?
3 THE WITNESS: Well, Mmm, you know, I didn't
4 believe that that was possible.
5 THE COURT: You didn't believe it was possible
6 for them to come in and ask the Court, and the Court
7 would allow it?
8 THE WITNESS: Well, no, I believed the Court
9 could allow it. But I still didn't think it was
10 possible for them to get them.
11 THE COURT: So is your testimony under oath to
12 me today that you never had a concern regarding the
13 Church of Scientology getting a hold of your money,
14 your bank accounts, how much money you had, or some
15 concern that they would use this against you with
16 the Internal Revenue Service? Is that your
17 testimony?
18 THE WITNESS: Oh, you know, yes, there was a
19 concern about that.
20 THE COURT: Okay. And -- and, in part, that
21 was because of the fact that at least Ms. Brooks has
22 told us that the Church of Scientology would -- did
23 not like people who were out to fight or their
24 enemies?
25 THE WITNESS: That's right.
694
1 THE COURT: And they would use whatever lawful
2 methods they had at their disposal to have you not
3 go after them anymore?
4 THE WITNESS: That's right, your Honor.
5 THE COURT: And since you are still claiming
6 the Fifth Amendment about these issues, then
7 obviously I would assume that that was a genuine
8 concern of yours.
9 THE WITNESS: Yes, your Honor.
10 THE COURT: Okay. Continue.
11 MR. WEINBERG: Your Honor, before the next
12 question, do you want to see this order?
13 THE COURT: Yes, please, if I could.
14 Thank you.
15 MR. WEINBERG: Certainly.
16 THE COURT: So this order that I signed, I
17 granted -- or sort of denied -- it's odd because it
18 doesn't really refer to the motion, the motion is
19 for protective order and sanctions. I'm not sure I
20 ever heard that particular motion.
21 MR. MOXON: Well --
22 MR. WEINBERG: I'll let Mr. Moxon speak to
23 that.
24 MR. MOXON: We filed a motion for seeking
25 out-of-state -- Mr. Dandar, you know what he did, he
695
1 filed a motion after that when we had given him
2 notice we were going to take the deposition, and
3 then we took it off because we never actually issued
4 the subpoena. So he filed his motion.
5 THE COURT: He filed his motion. But I don't
6 remember hearing this. I'm not saying --
7 MR. MOXON: It was mooted because we indicated
8 that we had not actually sent the subpoena, we had
9 not served any subpoena on the bank.
10 THE COURT: But in this order, I indicated that
11 if the -- it says if an order issues permitting such
12 records to be released, and if any records are
13 located indicating payments from Robert Minton,
14 Kennan Dandar or to the firm of Dandar & Dandar,
15 that those records be sent directly to this Court.
16 MR. MOXON: Right.
17 THE COURT: In other words, that was the issue
18 as to whether those were going to be released, and I
19 was going to hold them until that could be decided.
20 MR. MOXON: Right, that was during the time of
21 the stay, your Honor, from the 2d DCA. So all those
22 records were being sent to you. In fact, you
23 probably have a bunch of records in your chambers
24 from banks we have never seen.
25 THE COURT: I probably have more stuff in my
696
1 chambers that I don't know what it is than I care to
2 know.
3 MR. MOXON: Okay.
4 THE COURT: Yes, I do have some stuff in my
5 chambers.
6 You may have that back. I don't think I will
7 need it.
8 MR. FUGATE: May I proceed, your Honor?
9 THE COURT: You may.
10 BY MR. FUGATE:
11 Q Mr. Minton, with regard to the two days of
12 deposition in the breach case of October 11 and October 12,
13 let me ask you this. Did you backtrack in that deposition
14 and back out of the agreement that you had publicized
15 before, et cetera, to your recollection?
16 A I believe it was that one. I -- I think -- I
17 think there might have been -- yes, there was one in
18 September in this case where I think I pled the Fifth
19 Amendment. And then in the October one --
20 Q The October one, again, would be Mr. Rosen taking
21 the deposition?
22 A Yes.
23 Q The questions I went through with you?
24 A Right, when Mr. Rosen was asking me questions.
25 Q When Mr. Dandar asked you particularly about
697
1 adding Mr. Miscavige and were you participating in
2 decisions, et cetera?
3 A Right. You know, basically, you know, said I
4 misunderstood the communications, you know, and backtracked,
5 you know.
6 Q And was that Mr. Dandar's request?
7 A It was.
8 Q Now, were you aware that Mr. Dandar used the
9 excerpts of your backtracking in that deposition to provide
10 them to this Court in a January hearing?
11 A I -- I know that he used them in several pleadings
12 or motions or something. But, you know, I don't know
13 which -- which dates they were used. But I know that they
14 were used in this Court and the appeals court.
15 Q And the 2d DCA?
16 A Yes.
17 Q Were you aware your affidavit was also used in the
18 Second District Court of Appeals?
19 A Yes.
20 Q Were you aware that Mr. Dandar's affidavit that
21 was up there as 114, I think -- or 113, rather, was also
22 utilized?
23 A I learned about that afterwards.
24 Q And at that time did you feel that was for the
25 good of the case, as you have indicated to Judge Schaeffer?
698
1 A Well, the -- the affidavit was -- that I signed,
2 the false affidavit that I signed, was for the good of the
3 case. And, you know, anything that Mr. Dandar did with them
4 after that, since he's the one that used the term "for the
5 good of the case," you know, I would assume that he thought
6 it was for the good of the case, as well.
7 Q And we've heard the term here in the last couple
8 of days "secret agreement." In fact, I think the Judge
9 asked you, where did it come from.
10 Can you tell us where you understood the term
11 "secret agreement" came from as it has been used in this
12 hearing?
13 A That came from Mr. Dandar.
14 Q And --
15 A You know, when this affidavit was signed, it
16 was -- or when it was about to be signed, he used the term
17 that, you know, henceforth -- I don't think he used
18 "henceforth," but "From this point on, this will have to be
19 a secret agreement that we don't talk about."
20 Q And did -- when you met with Mr. Rinder and
21 Monique Yingling in April, did you use the term "secret
22 agreement" in your meeting with them?
23 A I believe I did.
24 Q And did -- can you tell us what your impression
25 was of whether they had ever heard of anything like that
699
1 before until you told them?
2 THE COURT: Well now, honestly, what is it you
3 are asking him to say? Did -- I mean, frankly, if
4 they said something or expressed surprise, that is
5 hearsay. What is it that you want from this man?
6 MR. FUGATE: All right.
7 THE COURT: He testified --
8 BY MR. FUGATE:
9 Q Were you asked about a secret agreement in that
10 meeting?
11 A No. I wasn't. I volunteered the information.
12 Q All right.
13 A Then I was asked about it.
14 MR. FUGATE: Could I have a moment, your Honor?
15 THE COURT: You may.
16 BY MR. FUGATE:
17 Q Do you remember a dinner meeting at the Belleview
18 Biltmore with Mr. Dandar attending?
19 A Yes, I do.
20 Q Can you tell us approximately when that was?
21 A I can look in my check list. You have the checks
22 here. I think it was May of 2001, but I'm always getting
23 May and August mixed up about some of these.
24 Yes, May 25, 2001.
25 Q Do you remember any conversation about your
700
1 testimony that might be upcoming being discussed at that
2 meeting?
3 A In connection with what?
4 Q Well, was there any discussion about you going to
5 jail at that meeting, if you recall?
6 A May 2001?
7 Q Uh-huh.
8 A Oh, yeah. Yeah, there was. Ms. Brooks -- this
9 wasn't the first time this subject of me going to jail came
10 up. It was a question of Mr. Dandar, when Ms. Brooks would
11 press him about not protecting me enough, he -- he said -- I
12 remember once in her office and at this meeting, she was a
13 lot more flabbergasted about it than I was, but he said
14 that, you know, "It doesn't matter to the case if Bob goes
15 to jail." That was --
16 Q What was your reaction to that?
17 A Well, I'd heard it one time before. As I said,
18 Stacy always reacted more vigorously to it than I did.
19 Q Well, at that point in May of 2001, would you have
20 been prepared to go to jail for the case?
21 A Mmm, I -- it certainly was not high on my list of
22 things to do. No. I mean, it wasn't something I wanted to
23 do.
24 Q And when, if you recall, did you begin to take the
25 Fifth Amendment as to questions about the funding, et
701
1 cetera?
2 A Mmm, well, I -- I think in the latter half of
3 2001. You know, the latter half -- you know, June,
4 whatever. Pretty much as far as I could go with it until
5 Judge Schaeffer ordered me to answer a lot of those
6 questions in the deposition with Mr. Moxon in September.
7 You know, subsequent to that, she ordered me to answer these
8 deposition questions which I pled the Fifth Amendment to.
9 Q Was there any discussion there about any other
10 payments being made by you to Mr. Dandar in the case?
11 A Mr. Dandar needed more money, you know, for the
12 case. I am not sure if this was a question -- no, at that
13 stage it couldn't have been. But he needed more money for
14 the case. And he wanted -- he wanted a check like the last
15 one he got, which was the 500,000 check --
16 Q Who said that to you?
17 A Mr. Dandar.
18 Q What did you understand that to mean?
19 A Well, that he wanted, you know, a -- a check that
20 couldn't be traced back to me and that he could keep hidden
21 from Scientology and from his employees.
22 Q Did you have any other discussion about that check
23 or about --
24 A Yes.
25 Q -- providing a check like that?
702
1 A He -- well, yeah. There was -- you know, I was
2 having some complications at that time and wasn't able to
3 provide him such a check. And he offered to, you know, go
4 anywhere in the world. Europe is what I think he thought
5 was where he was going. But he said, "Panama, Hong Kong,
6 wherever in the world I need to go, I can go pick up the
7 cash, if you want."
8 And, you know, and he wanted more money,
9 preferably right then, and -- but he was willing to wait and
10 go pick up the cash.
11 There had been some delay -- and this wasn't the
12 first time that he was asking for money at this time.
13 Q Time frame, you mean?
14 A In this time frame. Some of these moneys that
15 were routed through Operation Clambake took a lot longer to
16 get here than I had expected, partially because Mr. -- you
17 know, Mr. Heldal-Lund, he received one of these UBS checks.
18 He started a police investigation. And it was a long time
19 before -- you know, he was concerned that he was somehow
20 being set up by Scientology, he thought.
21 Q Was that, in fact, true --
22 A No, it wasn't true.
23 Q -- with regard to the check?
24 A No. And he took the check, you know, to the
25 Norwegian police. And they instituted an investigation that
703
1 took some time. And eventually, you know, they came back
2 and told him the check is perfectly good, there is no
3 problem with it. They went to the Swiss authorities, who
4 went to the bank. And it took a long time before that
5 arrived. And --
6 Q When you say "Before that arrived" --
7 A Before that $300,000 arrived.
8 Q Is that the $300,000 we discussed the other day
9 that came to the LMT?
10 A Yes.
11 Q And that UBS check, was that a check that had come
12 from you to Mr. Heldal-Lund?
13 A That is correct.
14 Q Did you have any discussions with Mr. Dandar about
15 this being a difficulty in you not being able to provide
16 funds at that point in time?
17 A I didn't tell him what was going on as to why I
18 couldn't deal with a check like he wanted.
19 Q And I think there was testimony from you the other
20 day that another $500,000 or thereabouts came into the LMT
21 and then was written out to you?
22 A Right. And then, you know, I turned around and
23 gave Mr. Dandar $250,000 of that at that meeting at the
24 Belleview Biltmore, I think.
25 Q Do you have the check there you recall writing and
704
1 handing over to him?
2 A Yes. May 25, 2001. 93H.
3 Q And that --
4 A Now, that check, also, by the way, was written to
5 Ken Dandar, like the previous check for $500,000.
6 Q Not to Dandar & Dandar?
7 A Right.
8 Q What does it say on the "for" or the memo line
9 there?
10 A "McPherson case." And that was because, you know,
11 Mr. Dandar was going to put it in this account where he
12 thought it was safe from Scientology finding out about it,
13 and that was a personal account, not a Dandar & Dandar
14 account.
15 Q Who told you that?
16 A Who told me what?
17 Q That it was a personal account.
18 A Oh, Mr. Dandar told me that. He had told me, you
19 know, back -- going back to 2000, May of 2000, that he had
20 set up an account where Scientology, you know, couldn't find
21 it, it was a personal account, and that is why the $500,000
22 check and then this check were made out to Ken Dandar.
23 Q Let me ask you this question, sir. Having just
24 said that, did you change, in your mind, any of your
25 understanding or agreement as to how you were funding the
705
1 Lisa McPherson case by changing who the checks were made --
2 made payable to?
3 A No. I was merely trying to accommodate
4 Mr. Dandar's request.
5 Q And did you abide by the request not to talk to
6 Mr. Haverty or Dr. Garko about providing the moneys?
7 A Up until recently, very recently, I did talk to
8 Dr. Garko, after he had already found out about the check
9 for $500,000.
10 Q Would that be at the hearing in front of Judge
11 Baird?
12 A Mmm, it was the first day that Mr. Lirot
13 represented Mr. Dandar in front of Judge Baird. Yes, after
14 that, according to Dr. Garko, Mr. Lirot came to see --
15 Mr. Lirot, Patricia Greenway, came to me with Dr. Garko and
16 Mr. Dandar where they were, and Lirot briefed them on what
17 had happened at the Baird hearing.
18 And Dr. Garko said that was the first time he had
19 ever heard about this $500,000, or even the $250,000, and he
20 recounted a heated conversation with Mr. Dandar in the
21 parking lot after that meeting was over where he had asked
22 Mr. Dandar, "What do I have to do to get my money from you,
23 hire a lawyer?"
24 And Mr. Dandar, according to Dr. Garko, said,
25 "Michael, there is nothing you can do about it."
706
1 And Dr. Garko explained at the time he was either
2 eight or nine months behind having been paid, and told me
3 that the last time he went off to an out-of-state
4 deposition, in fact one in Nashville, at Vanderbilt, in
5 January I think it was, he had to pay his own airfare
6 because Mr. Dandar told him he didn't have any money.
7 Q And this was a conversation you had with
8 Dr. Garko?
9 A Yes.
10 Q All right. Where was that?
11 A It was at the Radisson Hotel. And Stacy Brooks
12 was there, as well.
13 MR. FUGATE: May I have a moment, your Honor?
14 THE COURT: You may.
15 BY MR. FUGATE:
16 Q Did you, sir, get a subpoena in the wrongful death
17 case that requested that you produce all your check records,
18 all -- evidence of all moneys that you had provided to
19 Mr. Dandar in May of 2000?
20 A Oh --
21 MR. FUGATE: May I approach, your Honor?
22 THE COURT: You may.
23 MR. FUGATE: Judge, this will be marked as 120,
24 Defendant's Exhibit 120.
25 A I would have to look at the document as to when it
707
1 was. It seemed to me there were a lot of these types of
2 things.
3 BY MR. FUGATE:
4 Q This is marked 120, if you want to add that on.
5 A Okay.
6 Q Do you recall getting a copy of Defendant's
7 Exhibit 120?
8 A Yes. I remember this.
9 Q Actually getting 120?
10 A Excuse me?
11 Q Actually getting the subpoena?
12 A I'm not sure it was actually served on me, but I
13 remember getting it eventually.
14 Q And would you look over on Page 12 -- excuse me,
15 on Page 3, Paragraph 12, the request for "All financial
16 records reflecting the provision of funds by you to any
17 entity or from any entity controlled by you to Kennan Dandar
18 and the firm of Dandar & Dandar"?
19 A Yes.
20 Q Now, is this the subpoena for bank records that
21 you have testified about that your attorney, Mr. Jonas, had
22 talked to you about, do you recall?
23 A Mmm, do you mean with respect to disclosing all of
24 the checks?
25 Q Yes.
708
1 A I believe it was. Yes.
2 Q Had you had any discussions with Mr. Dandar about
3 what you should do with regard to the $500,000 UBS check
4 with --
5 A Yes.
6 Q -- with regard to this subpoena?
7 A Yes.
8 Q And what were those discussions, and if you can
9 tell us when and where were they?
10 A Mmm, well, the -- the discussion was basically to
11 "concentrate on the amount of checks you have written -- or
12 concentrate on the checks you have written, you know,
13 personal checks. You know, your name is not on this check,
14 you know, don't even mention it."
15 Q And in a deposition in this case, specifically a
16 deposition taken on May 24, 2000, were you asked about
17 checks that you had written and given to Mr. Dandar?
18 A I think I was asked about the total amounts of
19 money.
20 Q Do you recall what you testified to as the total
21 amount given to Mr. Dandar as of May of 2000 -- May 24 of
22 2000?
23 A Well, I think I said a million-fifty.
24 Q Was that accurate?
25 A No, it wasn't, it didn't include the $500,000.
709
1 And I think, just from my recollection there, the day after
2 that, I gave him another check. But, of course, that wasn't
3 part of that deposition.
4 Q And was Mr. Dandar present at this deposition?
5 A Was -- it was in this case. Correct?
6 Q Yes.
7 A Yes. I think he was always present at my
8 depositions in this case.
9 Q And was that testimony truthful when you gave it
10 on May 24, 2000?
11 A It was off by $500,000. It wasn't true.
12 THE COURT: And your testimony to this Court, I
13 guess, if I understand you, is that the only reason
14 why you did this is -- the only reason why you lied
15 here again under oath is because Mr. Dandar asked
16 you to?
17 THE WITNESS: That is correct, your Honor.
18 THE COURT: You didn't have anything to do with
19 this, you didn't care if Scientology knew that you'd
20 done this little UBS transaction and given $500,000
21 more dollars in this fashion to Mr. Dandar at all.
22 Is that your testimony?
23 THE WITNESS: That is my testimony. In fact,
24 you know, there were other checks like that that
25 were deposited into my own account. You know, there
710
1 were other checks like that that were given to
2 Courage Productions with respect to the movie The
3 Prophet.
4 MR. FUGATE: I'm about to move into that, your
5 Honor, if that --
6 THE COURT: I don't know if I'm going to let
7 you. I don't know what in the heck that has to do
8 with this case.
9 MR. FUGATE: I think that it will take me maybe
10 five or six minutes to go through and I think you'll
11 understand exactly what it has to do with these
12 moneys that have gone in here.
13 THE COURT: All right. That is about what you
14 have got, five minutes to convince me this is
15 relevant --
16 MR. FUGATE: Okay.
17 THE COURT: -- about some movie that nobody
18 ever saw.
19 MR. FUGATE: It's not the movie, Judge. It is
20 the funding that I think the Court should be aware
21 of.
22 THE COURT: Well, if the issue is whether or
23 not he funded the movie, I know he did.
24 MR. FUGATE: Well, Judge, if you give me my
25 five minutes, I think I can tie it up.
711
1 THE COURT: Well, your clock is running,
2 Counselor.
3 BY MR. FUGATE:
4 Q Did you have a contract for Courage Productions
5 and the funding of the movie The Prophet?
6 A Yes, I did.
7 MR. FUGATE: May I approach, your Honor?
8 THE COURT: You may.
9 MR. FUGATE: Will this be 121?
10 THE CLERK: Yes.
11 MR. FUGATE: Your Honor, this is 121.
12 THE COURT: All right.
13 MR. FUGATE: And may I stand by the witness,
14 your Honor, because I only have --
15 THE COURT: You may.
16 BY MR. FUGATE:
17 Q I'm showing you a copy of what has been marked as
18 Defendant's Exhibit 121. And I'm going to ask you if you
19 would quickly look at it and see if that appears to be an
20 executed contract for Courage Productions.
21 A Yes. I see my --
22 Q Do you see your signature?
23 A I see my initials, my signature. Yes.
24 Q Now, I'm going to leave that up there with you and
25 ask you, is there a schedule of payments on that?
712
1 A Yes, there is.
2 Q And what is the schedule of payments?
3 A 157 -- you don't want me to read all these
4 numbers, right?
5 Q No.
6 A No? Well, there is a schedule of about
7 $2.5 million worth on Page 18 in Exhibit B of payments that
8 are necessary to fund this movie.
9 Q And who are the two partners in Courage
10 Productions, according to this agreement?
11 A Peter Alexander and myself.
12 Q Peter Alexander is one of the members of the LMT
13 advisory board, is that right?
14 A That is correct.
15 Q He's a witness in the wrongful --
16 THE COURT: How many times do I have to hear
17 this, Counsel?
18 BY MR. FUGATE:
19 Q Well, let me ask you this, sir. The investor is
20 who?
21 A Me.
22 Q You are the investor?
23 A Right.
24 Q How much money did you invest in Courage
25 Productions in the making of -- purportedly in the making of
713
1 The Prophet?
2 A The full amount, about $2.4 million --
3 $2.5 million, rounded off.
4 Q And did you have any discussions with Mr. Dandar
5 about whether or not you should invest in the movie The
6 Prophet?
7 A Mmm, yes.
8 Q Can you tell us about those discussions?
9 A Well, his first concern was to "Make sure you
10 don't spend all your money on this so there is some left for
11 me."
12 Secondly, that he was interested in this film
13 being widely distributed, generating negative publicity
14 about Scientology, and having an influence here in this
15 local area as far as the jury pool is concerned.
16 Q And on the schedule of payments here, do you see a
17 payment of $500,000 that is required under the terms of the
18 contract?
19 A Yes.
20 Q And do you see I have just handed you --
21 MR. FUGATE: Madam Clerk, it is 122?
22 THE CLERK: Yes.
23 BY MR. FUGATE:
24 Q -- what has been marked for identification as
25 Exhibit 122?
714
1 A Yes.
2 Q Do you recognize a copy of another UBS check?
3 A Yes.
4 Q And is this a copy of a UBS check that you caused
5 to be issued to Courage Productions?
6 A That is correct.
7 Q And is it the same sort of check that was given to
8 Mr. Dandar in 93G?
9 A 93G was the $500,000?
10 Q Yes.
11 A Yes.
12 Q The same year?
13 A Yes.
14 Q Were all of the payments that totaled $2.4 million
15 and some dollars made to Courage Productions by you?
16 A Yes, they were.
17 Q And was that fact known to Mr. Alexander and
18 Ms. Greenway?
19 A Yes, it was. I haven't yet been accused of the
20 fat man having financed this movie.
21 Q I'm sorry?
22 A I haven't yet been accused that the fat man
23 financed this movie.
24 Q There is no question you financed this movie, you
25 provided all of the funds, and part of the funds you
715
1 provided came from UBS checks as the ones that went to
2 Mr. Dandar?
3 A Approximately 2 million of the $2.5 million came
4 from UBS checks.
5 Q Who did you deliver the UBS checks, as well as the
6 other checks, to?
7 A Either Mr. Alexander or Ms. Greenway, either by
8 hand or by courier or by messenger from Clearwater to Tampa.
9 Q And is that the same Ms. Greenway -- is
10 Ms. Greenway here in the courtroom today?
11 A Yes, I think she just walked in. She's the lady
12 behind Mr. Dandar in --
13 THE COURT: Why do I care about that? I know
14 who Ms. Greenway is.
15 MR. DANDAR: I'll object. It seems they
16 choreograph their questions.
17 THE COURT: I know they do. And it makes
18 absolutely no sense to me. I can only assume they
19 must be doing this for some appellate record because
20 it makes no difference to me. It is a public
21 courtroom. Anyone can come in. Ms. Brooks has been
22 sitting back there all this time, too, as a courtesy
23 of ours. So --
24 MR. FUGATE: I merely asked if he can identify
25 her.
716
1 THE COURT: Is there any question that he can?
2 BY MR. FUGATE:
3 Q Is that the same Ms. Greenway you delivered some
4 of these checks to?
5 A Yes.
6 Q Now --
7 THE COURT: Did you tell the Church of
8 Scientology about any of these checks?
9 THE WITNESS: Mmm, not until --
10 THE COURT: Until your deal?
11 THE WITNESS: Your Honor, there isn't any deal.
12 THE COURT: Okay. Well, not until your change
13 of heart?
14 THE WITNESS: No. There is no deal.
15 THE COURT: Did you tell the Church of
16 Scientology about this check any more than you told
17 them about the other $500,000 check, until you had
18 your change of heart?
19 THE WITNESS: No.
20 THE COURT: You still didn't want them to know
21 about either one of these checks, did you?
22 THE WITNESS: Mmm -- you know, your Honor --
23 THE COURT: That is why this is irrelevant.
24 MR. FUGATE: Well, Judge --
25 THE COURT: Yes, unless, of course, the Church
717
1 of Scientology somehow got their hands on one of
2 these two checks. Did they?
3 THE WITNESS: First time I believe they saw any
4 of these checks is after I gave them copies of
5 these.
6 THE COURT: So you weren't showing the Church
7 of Scientology your financial business, no matter
8 who it was you were giving it to, right?
9 THE WITNESS: I wasn't showing anybody.
10 THE COURT: And you didn't want the Church of
11 Scientology to know anything about these UBS checks
12 or where the money came from for you to get these
13 checks, did you?
14 THE WITNESS: I didn't want anybody to --
15 THE COURT: You particularly didn't want the
16 Church of Scientology to know because of your fear
17 of the IRS, right? And if that is not true, say no.
18 THE WITNESS: No. No, your Honor, as I told
19 you, you know, the IRS was a concern.
20 THE COURT: So what is the relevance of this?
21 BY MR. FUGATE:
22 Q Was there -- are you aware that there was a motion
23 to quash the subpoena for funding of Courage Productions to
24 prevent disclosure of the finances of -- or your
25 participation in financing the movie filed by Mr. Alexander
718
1 and Ms. Greenway by Luke Lirot in this case?
2 A I learned about it, yes. I don't think I knew it
3 at the time.
4 MR. FUGATE: May I approach, your Honor?
5 THE COURT: You may.
6 MR. FUGATE: This will be 123.
7 THE COURT: I'm going to sustain the objection.
8 All this is irrelevant. You can proffer it and you
9 can make your record. It is irrelevant.
10 MR. WEINBERG: Your Honor --
11 THE COURT: The objection has been sustained.
12 MR. WEINBERG: Could I speak for the record
13 then? The relevance is there has been a question
14 raised, by both the Court yesterday, and by
15 Mr. Dandar throughout, that he didn't know -- or
16 that the source of the funds -- or some question as
17 to whether the source of the funds or the $500,000
18 check and the $250,000 check is really Mr. Minton.
19 And what this check here and other checks that
20 went to Courage Production would tend to indicate is
21 that, in fact, this is Mr. Minton's money.
22 And so that is absolutely relevant to the
23 determination as to whether or not these checks that
24 were given to Mr. Dandar were Mr. Minton's money.
25 THE COURT: Wait a minute. These checks
719
1 written to this Courage Productions weren't provided
2 to Mr. Dandar.
3 MR. WEINBERG: No, your Honor, Mr. Minton --
4 the question was is this Mr. Minton's money. I
5 think that it was fairly obvious, it should have
6 been to Mr. Dandar, it was Mr. Minton's money.
7 But the Court had a question, and the fact as
8 to whether, really, the UBS money is Minton's money
9 or somebody else's money, and here is yet another
10 example in 2000 and 2001 where Mr. Minton used UBS
11 bank checks --
12 THE COURT: Mr. Minton is going to provide us
13 the source of that. You didn't need to help him out
14 here. He said he would provide them. And I expect
15 it to be provided.
16 So what does this have to do with it, unless
17 Mr. Dandar saw these checks? Now, if you can prove
18 that, it has some relevance to this hearing.
19 Otherwise, it does not, Counselor.
20 MR. WEINBERG: People at LMT saw the checks.
21 Ms. --
22 THE COURT: Very nice.
23 MR. WEINBERG: Ms. Greenway, who was working
24 with Mr. Dandar, saw the checks.
25 THE COURT: If you can establish Mr. Dandar saw
720
1 the checks, there is some relevance to this hearing.
2 If you cannot, there is not. Make your record,
3 proffer it --
4 MR. WEINBERG: That is what I'm doing.
5 THE COURT: Or it is irrelevant.
6 MR. WEINBERG: I'm making a record.
7 THE COURT: You are not. You are making
8 argument to the Court. He gets to make the record.
9 Hurry through your proffer. You have about two more
10 minutes.
11 MR. FUGATE: Yes, your Honor.
12 THE COURT: I'm not going to waste my time.
13 This is about the ninth or tenth day. I ruled it is
14 irrelevant. Do what you have to do. Make it quick.
15 Move on.
16 MR. FUGATE: I'll make it quick, Judge.
17 The lawyer that represented Courage Productions
18 and Patricia Greenway and Peter Alexander on the
19 21st of February, 2002 is Mr. Luke Lirot.
20 The hearing and arguments that took place
21 before Judge Beach on the motions for protective
22 order and ultimately on the protective order that
23 was granted were in Mr. Dandar's presence.
24 Judge Beach found the average person viewing
25 The Prophet could view it as a parody on the Church
721
1 of Scientology but because they, meaning Mr. Lirot,
2 Patricia Greenway -- and I have a copy of that
3 order, if the Court would like to see it.
4 THE COURT: I don't care what Judge Beach
5 ruled. I asked you to give me the movie. I know
6 quite a bit about the Church of Scientology now,
7 thanks to this case, and there is nothing wrong with
8 that. I'm happy to know more about a church in my
9 community. Let me see the movie and I'll tell you
10 whether I think it has anything to do with this
11 case. It hasn't been provided yet.
12 MR. FUGATE: Well --
13 MR. MOXON: Judge, your Honor, we don't have
14 the movie. The movie would be provided by
15 Mr. Dandar's clients.
16 THE COURT: You don't have it?
17 MR. MOXON: No.
18 MR. FUGATE: No.
19 THE COURT: You have never seen it?
20 MR. FUGATE: We have a canned clip --
21 MR. MOXON: It was shown publicly in
22 Clearwater.
23 THE BAILIFF: Time out. One at a time, please.
24 MR. FUGATE: The answer to your question,
25 Judge, we have a clip of Mr. Dandar appearing in the
722
1 movie as an FBI agent, which we can play for you if
2 you would like to see it, that was the subject of a
3 letter from Mr. Lirot to Mr. Minton asking
4 Mr. Minton to take that clip down from the LMT
5 website.
6 And the only significance or relevance, as far
7 as you are concerned, to this proceeding that I view
8 and I see it is relevant to your Honor is this was
9 another effort --
10 THE COURT: You know, Counselor, you only get
11 to make one pitch. When one stands up and makes the
12 pitch, you are done. One lawyer. I'm not hearing
13 from two of you. You lost. And you are to move on.
14 I would like to see the movie. If I don't see
15 the movie, I'm going to rule it has nothing to do
16 with the Church of Scientology because I have no
17 idea what it has to do with. How is it you got this
18 clip of Mr. Dandar?
19 MR. FUGATE: The clip was on the LMT website,
20 and it was publicly available to anybody that went
21 on the website. And it was downloaded off the
22 website.
23 Mr. Lirot wrote a letter to Mr. -- amazingly,
24 he wrote a letter to Mr. Minton saying, you know,
25 "You can't put those clips on. We want that clip
723
1 and other clips --" I think two or three other clips
2 on there "-- taken off because you are violating the
3 trademark of the movie and, you know, stop. And, by
4 the way, how about buying out Mr. Alexander's share
5 of the movie."
6 The relevance to me is that Mr. Lirot --
7 THE COURT: Are you now doing what I just told
8 you not to do?
9 MR. FUGATE: I thought I was answering your
10 question.
11 THE COURT: We had Mr. Weinberg make an
12 argument. One or the other of you will make the
13 argument. Not both of you. He already said why he
14 thinks it has relevance. I overruled it. You don't
15 get a second turn. Move on.
16 MR. FUGATE: I was answering -- and we have the
17 clip that was --
18 THE COURT: I don't want to see the clip. I
19 just ruled it is irrelevant.
20 MR. FUGATE: Okay. To answer your question,
21 Judge, if I may, we do not have the movie. We don't
22 have access to the movie.
23 THE COURT: I understood you didn't have the
24 movie. If you don't have the movie, then I suppose
25 I can't see the movie. I guess you cannot prove
724
1 then, if you think it is part of your proof, that
2 this movie has anything to do with the Church of
3 Scientology. If it is your burden of proof and you
4 don't have it, you can't prove it.
5 Please move on. That even means it is less
6 relevant.
7 MR. FUGATE: May we take our break?
8 THE COURT: Yes.
9 MR. FUGATE: I'll reorganize my presentation
10 for you.
11 THE COURT: What is to reorganize? You just
12 skip past that and get on to the next subject.
13 MR. FUGATE: That is true.
14 THE COURT: So what time did we start? 1:30?
15 THE BAILIFF: 1:15.
16 THE COURT: 1:15? Okay, it's time. We'll be
17 in recess for twenty minutes.
18 (WHEREUPON, a recess was taken from 2:45 to 3:05 p.m.)
19 THE COURT: All right, you may proceed.
20 MR. FUGATE: Your Honor, may I approach the
21 witness?
22 THE COURT: You may.
23 MR. FUGATE: For one last -- oh, I had it open.
24 THE WITNESS: I'm sorry. I changed it around.
25 MR. FUGATE: The Courage --
725
1 THE WITNESS: The contract. I'm sorry.
2 MR. FUGATE: I'm sorry, Judge. I had it.
3 Judge, if you'll turn to Page 15 of the Courage
4 contract, I just have one question to complete my
5 proffer.
6 BY MR. FUGATE:
7 Q Do you see there your name with an address that
8 has been lined out --
9 A Yes.
10 Q -- in the Courage contract?
11 A Right, on Page 15.
12 Q What address was lined out?
13 A 33 North Ft. Harrison Avenue, Clearwater, Florida.
14 Q And what address is that?
15 A It was added, my home address, in Sandown, New
16 Hampshire.
17 Q No. What address was Ft. Harrison?
18 A That was the Lisa McPherson Trust address.
19 Q Do you know, sir, why that address was crossed out
20 of the Courage Productions' contract?
21 A Mmm, I think because I wanted my legal domicile
22 address in there.
23 MR. FUGATE: Okay. That is all of the
24 questions I have about that, Judge.
25 THE COURT: All right.
726
1 MR. FUGATE: Now, Judge, I'm going to ask you,
2 it is Exhibit 49 to the memorandum of law and fact,
3 it is the E-Mail from Mr. Merrett to Mr. Dandar, if
4 I could approach the witness. I think you have it.
5 THE COURT: I do.
6 BY MR. FUGATE:
7 Q I'm going to ask you if you have seen what is
8 Exhibit 49 to the memorandum of law and fact before, sir?
9 A Yes, I have seen it.
10 Q And how did you come to see that?
11 A Well, I distinctly remember seeing it introduced
12 in Judge Baird's court. But I believe I'd seen it before,
13 about the time it was sent.
14 Q Did you receive a copy of it from either
15 Mr. Dandar or Mr. Merrett?
16 A Not Mr. Dandar. But Mr. Merrett probably, or
17 Stacy Brooks, who he might have given a copy to.
18 Q Had you given any instructions to Mr. Merrett to
19 notify Mr. Dandar about Mr. Prince's status?
20 A Yes.
21 Q What were those instructions?
22 A That Jesse was going to drop out as an expert
23 witness.
24 Q And whose decision was that?
25 A Stacy Brooks' and mine.
727
1 Q And approximately what is the date of that E-Mail?
2 A August 24th.
3 Q And prior to August 24th of 2001, what was the
4 last check or funds that you had provided to the Lisa
5 McPherson case, do you recall?
6 A That --
7 Q 93H, actually?
8 A That $250,000 check in May of 2001.
9 Q At the Belleview Biltmore?
10 A Correct.
11 Q We already heard testimony about that.
12 A Right.
13 Q Now, after that -- first of all, did you instruct
14 Mr. Prince that he should remove himself from the case, the
15 Lisa McPherson case?
16 A Yes, both Stacy Brooks and I did.
17 Q All right. And were you aware that Mr. Dandar had
18 filed a motion for extreme sanctions and penalties claiming
19 that he was not going to testify because of pressure of
20 Scientology?
21 A This was the one where Jesse admitted to drug use.
22 Q You are aware --
23 A Where there was an affidavit that was supporting
24 that. Yes, I'm aware of that.
25 Q Now, in August of 2001, were you --
728
1 THE COURT: Are you aware that same motion
2 accused the Church of Scientology of setting him up
3 improperly?
4 THE WITNESS: Yes, your Honor.
5 THE COURT: That was, I guess, a two-fold
6 motion. And the sanctions, if you wanted monetary
7 sanctions, was because Mr. Prince alleged he was
8 afraid to testify and was going to withdraw, as I
9 recall.
10 By the way, I asked for that whole transcript.
11 And what I got was sort of some argument at the end.
12 But I -- do you remember I'd asked you, I think, for
13 that whole transcript?
14 MS. WEST: I sent you the whole transcript.
15 THE COURT: No, you didn't, at least I got just
16 toward the end. I was looking for the whole thing.
17 MS. WEST: Okay.
18 THE COURT: I may not need it. I just am
19 trying to do an order on that, and I thought if I
20 had the whole transcript --
21 MR. DANDAR: All right.
22 MR. FUGATE: I'm not going to argue about it,
23 Judge.
24 BY MR. FUGATE:
25 Q Had you sent a message to Mr. Dandar that you
729
1 weren't interested in funding the litigation any more then
2 in August of 2001?
3 A Yes. Through Mr. Merrett.
4 Q Did you get any E-Mails from Mr. Dandar requesting
5 your help?
6 A Yes. The only one that I -- or the first one that
7 I still had was in December of 2001, I believe.
8 MR. FUGATE: May I approach the clerk?
9 THE CLERK: 124.
10 MR. FUGATE: This is 124, Judge, marked for
11 identification.
12 BY MR. FUGATE:
13 Q I ask you to take a look at Defendant's 124 and
14 ask you if you can identify this copy of an E-Mail?
15 A Yes. That is the one I referred to. This was an
16 E-Mail from Mr. Dandar to me.
17 Q And the date is?
18 A I'm sorry, December 17, 2001.
19 MR. FUGATE: I move it into evidence, your
20 Honor.
21 THE COURT: Any objection?
22 MR. DANDAR: No objection.
23 THE COURT: It will be received.
24 BY MR. FUGATE:
25 Q Did you have any telephone communication about the
730
1 message, "Help is needed now. Is there any hope at all"?
2 THE COURT: Can somebody tell me what the
3 date -- I see all kinds of things -- is the date
4 December 17, '01?
5 MR. DANDAR: Yes.
6 THE COURT: Thank you.
7 MR. FUGATE: "Message date" (indicating).
8 A I'm sorry, your question was did I have a
9 telephone conversation with anyone about this message?
10 BY MR. FUGATE:
11 Q Uh-huh. If you recall?
12 A I don't recall.
13 Q Did you respond to this, do you recall?
14 A No, I didn't.
15 Q Did you receive another E-Mail from Mr. Dandar
16 suggesting a meeting to discuss funding?
17 A Yes.
18 MR. FUGATE: May I approach again, your Honor?
19 THE COURT: You may. I know that first E-Mail
20 is in this book but I didn't pull it out. Did you
21 say that was dated 8/24/01, the E-Mail from
22 Mr. Minton -- or from Mr. Merrett?
23 THE WITNESS: Yes, it is 8/24/01.
24 THE COURT: Thank you.
25 MR. WEINBERG: It is Exhibit 49 in the book.
731
1 THE WITNESS: This is a copy of it, your Honor,
2 if you want to see it.
3 THE COURT: I got it. I just didn't pull it
4 out. 8/24/01? All right.
5 MR. FUGATE: This is what?
6 THE CLERK: 125.
7 MR. FUGATE: This will be marked for
8 identification, your Honor, as Exhibit 125.
9 BY MR. FUGATE:
10 Q I show you what has been marked for
11 identification, Mr. Minton, as Defendant's Exhibit 125.
12 MR. FUGATE: Ken, do you have a copy of that?
13 MR. DANDAR: Yes.
14 BY MR. FUGATE:
15 Q Can you identify that, sir?
16 A Yes, this is an E-Mail message from Mr. Dandar to
17 me dated January 10, 2002.
18 Q There is a whole bunch of numbers, letters and
19 symbols on it. Can you tell us what that is all about?
20 THE WITNESS: Well, about -- just below the
21 middle of the page you see where -- your Honor,
22 where it says "Begin Pgp message"?
23 THE COURT: Yes.
24 THE WITNESS: The rest down to the next page
25 where it said "End Pgp message," that is what is
732
1 called an encrypted message that was utilizing a
2 software package called "Pgp."
3 So the message itself looked like this part
4 that just said "Begin Pgp message" and "End Pgp
5 message." Then in order to read the message --
6 well, when Mr. Dandar sent it to me he encrypted it
7 to a public key -- a public encryption key of mine
8 which he had, which is also on the Internet for
9 anybody to download if they want to send me an
10 encrypted message. So when you receive the message,
11 you type in, you know, your own personal pass phrase
12 relative to that message and decrypt it.
13 And what is below the "End Pgp message" is the
14 result of the decryption.
15 BY MR. FUGATE:
16 Q Can you tell us where that is and what it is?
17 A What do you mean, where? Well, it's below where
18 it says "End Pgp message."
19 Q Is that the thing in English there, "National
20 Vanderbilt Marriott"?
21 A Yes.
22 MR. FUGATE: Let me ask you this -- I move 125
23 in, based on that identification, your Honor.
24 THE COURT: Any objection?
25 MR. DANDAR: No objection.
733
1 THE COURT: It will be received.
2 BY MR. FUGATE:
3 Q The part in English which says "1-18," and a
4 number, "Friday night only," what was that, if you know?
5 A Mr. Dandar had called me, prior to this message,
6 to say that he wanted to meet with me in Nashville when he
7 was doing a deposition there. And, you know, then he sent
8 me this message to say that he booked a hotel room for me in
9 Nashville.
10 And this was the reservation number with the
11 Marriott for -- for the Nashville Vanderbilt Marriott Hotel.
12 Q Did you have any conversation about what that
13 meeting was to be about?
14 A Money for the wrongful death case.
15 Q Do you remember anything other than that? Any
16 other specifics in the conversation with you and Mr. Dandar?
17 A Mmm, well, that, you know, he really needed money
18 now. And, you know, I needed to ante up, basically.
19 Despite the previous communication with Merrett that, you
20 know, that I didn't intend to provide any more, he was still
21 anxious to get more. And I -- you know, I refused to go to
22 Nashville to meet with him.
23 Q Had there been --
24 A Sorry. Nashville was my home town where my family
25 lives, still. And, you know, if I were going to go there, I
734
1 wouldn't have needed a hotel reservation, anyway.
2 Q Is this one that had been provided for you -- or
3 this communication is one that had been provided for you, I
4 take it?
5 A The communication was to say, "Mr. Dandar, I made
6 you a reservation at National Vanderbilt Marriott," which is
7 where he was going to stay.
8 Q Did you go to Nashville?
9 A I didn't.
10 Q So no meeting took place?
11 A No. Right.
12 Q Now, prior -- or in this same period of time --
13 THE COURT: I'm not sure what you were asking.
14 You weren't asking him if this had anything to do
15 with that telephone he was provided, were you?
16 MR. FUGATE: No.
17 THE COURT: All right.
18 MR. FUGATE: I was asking him if this was a
19 reser