Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida
Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500
Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500
1
1 IN THE CIRCUIT COURT FOR PINELLAS COUNTY, FLORIDA
CASE NO. 00-5682-CI-11
2
3
4
DELL LIEBREICH, as Personal
5 Representative of the ESTATE OF
LISA McPHERSON,
6
7 Plaintiff,
8 vs. VOLUME 1
9 CHURCH OF SCIENTOLOGY FLAG
SERVICE ORGANIZATION, JANIS
10 JOHNSON, ALAIN KARTUZINSKI
and DAVID HOUGHTON, D.D.S.,
11
Defendants.
12
_______________________________________/
13
14
15 PROCEEDINGS: Defendants' Omnibus Motion for
Terminating Sanctions and Other Relief.
16
CONTENTS: Testimony of John Merrett.
17
DATE: May 23, 2002. Afternoon Session.
18
PLACE: Courtroom B, Judicial Building
19 St. Petersburg, Florida.
20 BEFORE: Honorable Susan F. Schaeffer,
Circuit Judge.
21
REPORTED BY: Lynne J. Ide, RMR.
22 Deputy Official Court Reporter,
Sixth Judicial Circuit of Florida.
23
24
25
2
1 APPEARANCES:
2
MR. KENNAN G. DANDAR
3 DANDAR & DANDAR
5340 West Kennedy Blvd., Suite 201
4 Tampa, FL 33602
Attorney for Plaintiff.
5
6 MR. LUKE CHARLES LIROT
LUKE CHARLES LIROT, PA
7 112 N East Street, Street, Suite B
Tampa, FL 33602-4108
8 Attorney for Plaintiff
9
MR. KENDRICK MOXON
10 MOXON & KOBRIN
1100 Cleveland Street, Suite 900
11 Clearwater, FL 33755
Attorney for Church of Scientology Flag Service
12 Organization.
13
MR. LEE FUGATE and
14 MR. MORRIS WEINBERG, JR. and
ZUCKERMAN, SPAEDER
15 101 E. Kennedy Blvd, Suite 1200
Tampa, FL 33602-5147
16 Attorneys for Church of Scientology Flag Service
Organization.
17
18 MR. ERIC M. LIEBERMAN
RABINOWITZ, BOUDIN, STANDARD
19 740 Broadway at Astor Place
New York, NY 10003-9518
20 Attorney for Church of Scientology Flag Service
Organization.
21
22 MR. THOMAS H. MCGOWAN
MCGOWAN & SUAREZ, LLP
23 150 2nd Avenue North, Suite 870
St. Petersburg, FL 33701-3381
24 Attorney for Stacy Brooks.
25
3
1 APPEARANCES: (Continued)
2
MR. BRUCE HOWIE
3 5720 Central Avenue
St. Petersburg, Florida.
4 Attorney for Robert Minton.
5
6 ALSO PRESENT:
7 Mr. Rick Spector
Ms. Sarah Heller
8 Mr. Ben Shaw
Mr. Brian Asay
9 Ms. Joyce Earl
Ms. Donna West
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4
1 THE COURT: You may be seated. I think we're
2 waiting for our clerk.
3 MR. MOXON: Your Honor, I have one matter we
4 can bring up.
5 THE COURT: Can we do it without the clerk?
6 MR. MOXON: Yes. I mentioned after the
7 Court -- the Court requested a copy of this film,
8 The Profit.
9 THE COURT: Yes.
10 MR. MOXON: I had a subpoena sent out from my
11 office, served on Miss Greenway, yesterday, who is
12 the producer of the film and has some kind of an
13 interest in the company. She's the vice-president
14 of Courage Productions.
15 So I would like an order she produce it. I
16 asked -- she just ran out. She was literally here
17 when I stood up.
18 MR. LIROT: I represent Ms. Greenway, Judge --
19 THE COURT: Okay.
20 MR. LIROT: -- in the other case. If you like,
21 we'll show you the film in camera. We just don't
22 want any more copies flying around.
23 I would be surprised if Mr. Moxon didn't have a
24 copy. I would like to file a protective order. I
25 have been out of town, but if you would --
5
1 THE COURT: I would like to see it in the
2 privacy of my home. I'm not going to show it to
3 anybody.
4 MR. LIROT: I'll provide you a copy of the film
5 and you can watch it, as long --
6 THE COURT: Is it on video, or DVD?
7 MR. LIROT: Half-inch, so you can -- you can
8 stick it in like a regular videotape.
9 THE COURT: Like --
10 MR. WEINBERG: VHS?
11 MR. LIROT: Yes.
12 THE COURT: I have the capabilities of watching
13 that, if it is all right. I don't know what it is
14 about. Everybody keeps talking about it.
15 MR. MOXON: We'll provide you a little brief
16 memo on it before you see it.
17 MR. LIROT: We don't need a memo. We'll let
18 you decide what is relevant about the movie, and
19 I'll present the tape. When you are done with it,
20 if you'll give it back. We don't want it to be of
21 matter of public record. We'll let you watch it at
22 your own convenience.
23 THE COURT: That would be fine.
24 MR. LIROT: Very good.
25 THE COURT: To tell you the truth, I have a
6
1 3-day weekend coming up, I'm not real keen on seeing
2 it, but whatever time I have, I can watch it this
3 weekend.
4 MR. LIROT: I'll get it to you tomorrow, Judge.
5 THE COURT: Okay. That would be great.
6 MR. WEINBERG: You have Spiderman, Star Wars
7 and you can see The Profit.
8 (A discussion was held off the record.)
9 MR. MOXON: The other thing, your Honor,
10 Mr. Merrett appeared now.
11 THE COURT: Oh, okay. Well, I really need the
12 clerk.
13 MR. MOXON: Okay.
14 THE COURT: I hope she's not sick or something.
15 Usually she's right here.
16 MR. HOWIE: One other matter, your Honor.
17 Mr. Minton should be here momentarily.
18 I have copies of the depo transcript to go over
19 with him. I would like to be able to excuse myself
20 to a room in the library or a room down the hall
21 while Mr. Merrett is testifying.
22 THE COURT: Sure.
23 MR. HOWIE: And let the bailiff know --
24 THE COURT: You may be excused any time you
25 like.
7
1 MR. HOWIE: I'll let the bailiff or the clerk
2 know where I'll be.
3 THE BAILIFF: Okay.
4 MR. DANDAR: Judge --
5 THE COURT: Why don't you see if you can find
6 out where she is, see if she's tied up in traffic or
7 sick, or what.
8 MR. DANDAR: I was going to suggest, let's go
9 forward and go as far as we can without using the
10 clerk's services.
11 THE COURT: Just about the time you wanted to
12 get some document, you know -- let's just see if
13 she's just a couple minutes late.
14 MR. MERRETT: Your Honor, John Merrett. I'm
15 going to be testifying, I think.
16 THE COURT: Yes.
17 MR. MERRETT: My only concern about Mr. Howie
18 excusing himself is I have at various times had an
19 attorney-client relationship with Mr. Minton, and
20 because I don't know exactly what is going on here,
21 I don't feel competent to protect his privilege
22 should it be implicated at any point during the
23 questioning.
24 THE COURT: Okay. Mr. Howie, that should be a
25 problem. That is why --
8
1 (Discussion had off the record.)
2 MR. HOWIE: I need to touch base with
3 Mr. Minton on this. I suspect we'll be in the
4 position of waiving attorney-client privilege.
5 After all, I suspect, based on Mr. Minton's
6 testimony concerning what occurred during
7 depositions, that that might constitute a waiver.
8 But let me clear it with Mr. Minton --
9 THE COURT: All right.
10 MR. HOWIE: -- in some detail.
11 THE COURT: Yes, there may be certain things
12 here that he's talked about, like what he talked
13 about, Mr. Merrett, certainly it is waived. You
14 can't have him assert the privilege, then allow one
15 side to talk about it and not the other. So that
16 would certainly be waived. But I don't know what is
17 going to be brought up. So it could be something
18 you would need to take up with your client.
19 All right, Mr. Merrett.
20 MR. MERRETT: Yes, your Honor.
21 THE COURT: Your client doesn't appear to be
22 here, Mr. McGowan, but that is not my fault.
23 MR. McGOWAN: That is right. We can go ahead.
24 (Witness sworn.)
25 THE WITNESS: Yes, your Honor.
9
1 THE COURT: Mr. Merrett, thank you for coming.
2 THE WITNESS: Yes, ma'am.
3 THE COURT: We're going to take you out of
4 order to do the best we can to accommodate --
5 THE WITNESS: I appreciate it, and I also
6 appreciate you letting me come today so Mr. McGowan
7 could be here to protect Ms. Brooks' interests
8 during my testimony.
9 THE COURT: All right.
10 ________________________________________
11 JOHN MERRETT,
12 the witness herein, being first duly sworn, was examined
13 and testified as follows:
14 DIRECT EXAMINATION
15 BY MR. DANDAR:
16 Q State your name.
17 A John Merrett.
18 Q Spell your last name.
19 A M-E-R-R-E-T-T.
20 Q Are you a member in good standing of the Florida
21 Bar?
22 A Yes.
23 Q Since when?
24 A 1988.
25 Q That didn't come out right.
10
1 Q Since the probation was up last year! No. Since
2 1988 continuously.
3 Q And you practice in Jacksonville, correct?
4 A For the most part.
5 Q All right. At what point in time did you start to
6 represent anyone in the Tampa Bay area?
7 A I believe it was early 2000.
8 Q And who did you first represent?
9 A Peter Alexander.
10 Q And why did you represent him?
11 A He was being deposed by Scientology in connection
12 with the wrongful death case.
13 Q At that time did you also represent the LMT?
14 A No.
15 Q Or Stacy Brooks or Bob Minton?
16 A No.
17 Q Prior to Mr. Alexander's deposition, had you had
18 any contact with any litigation involving the Church of
19 Scientology?
20 A No. Other than having run across some reported
21 decisions over the years. But nothing that I was involved
22 in.
23 Q Okay. How did Mr. Alexander find you since you
24 were in Jacksonville?
25 A Through Patricia Greenway, I believe.
11
1 Q How did she find you?
2 A Over the Internet.
3 Q Did you also represent them in reference to
4 Courage Productions?
5 A I represented, I know, Courage Productions. I
6 don't recall exactly whether I represented them
7 individually.
8 Q In reference to Courage Productions, what did you
9 do?
10 A Generally, advised on various legal questions that
11 came up during the course of the creation of a film they
12 were making. I attended on the set a couple of times.
13 I assisted in directing an investigator who was
14 conducting essentially counter-surveillance against
15 Scientology investigators and picketers and people like
16 that, and eventually filed an injunction action to attempt
17 to keep various Scientology operatives from interfering with
18 the making of the film.
19 Q And then was it after that time that you became
20 retained by the Lisa McPherson Trust?
21 A I don't know when the film was made so I can't
22 answer that.
23 Q If I told you that the film did not start
24 production until August of 2000, would that help refresh
25 your memory?
12
1 A Yes. I think I was probably already representing
2 the LMT and/or Ms. Brooks and/or Mr. Minton by then.
3 Q In the deposition transcript of Mr. Minton of
4 May 24 --
5 THE COURT: Excuse me just a second. I did
6 notice, Mr. McGowan, your client is present. Did
7 you realize she came in?
8 MR. McGOWAN: Yes, I did. Thank you, your
9 Honor.
10 THE COURT: Mr. Minton still isn't here.
11 MR. HOWIE: He should be here momentarily.
12 BY MR. DANDAR:
13 Q In the transcript of the deposition of Mr. Minton
14 of May 24, 2000, you are noted as being present and
15 objecting to many questions?
16 A That is correct. And I had actually been
17 representing him for some fairly brief time before that
18 because there had been some -- I know I had filed a motion
19 for protective order which was granted that covered that
20 deposition.
21 Q Okay.
22 A The order was entered, I think, on the 23rd.
23 THE COURT: What depo, I'm sorry?
24 MR. DANDAR: May 24, 2000.
25 THE COURT: May 24?
13
1 BY MR. DANDAR:
2 Q While the case was pending in Tampa. Correct?
3 A I believe that is correct, but I don't know for
4 sure when it moved.
5 Q Okay. And is it your understanding at the time of
6 the May 24, 2000 deposition of Mr. Minton that the trial was
7 scheduled in June of 2000 in Tampa?
8 A Yes.
9 Q And that is the Lisa McPherson case?
10 A Yes.
11 Q Now, are you aware of any instance where I sat
12 down, in person or over the telephone, with Mr. Minton and
13 attempted to prepare him for his May 24th, 2000 deposition?
14 A No. In fact, it's my understanding that the
15 reason that he came to me was because there wasn't anybody
16 involved in the case who could do that without creating a
17 conflict of interest.
18 Q Now, in Mr. Minton's deposition there is some
19 reference to him testifying in a criminal case prior -- the
20 day before May 24, 2000. What was that about?
21 A I believe that was -- he was charged with simple
22 battery, I believe it was, after an altercation with a
23 Scientologist in front of the Ft. Harrison Hotel.
24 And I believe he had gone to trial either right up
25 until the day before or the Friday before, and the depo was
14
1 on a Monday or something.
2 Q Is that Mr. Howd?
3 A Yes.
4 Q And you -- did you represent Mr. Minton for that?
5 A No.
6 Q That was Mr. DeVlaming?
7 A As far as I know. Yes.
8 Q All right. Now, before getting on the stand
9 today, excluding the time when I called you once or twice to
10 tell you that, you know, you need to be here, have you
11 conferred with anyone in reference to what you may testify
12 about today?
13 A I have had several conversations with people
14 concerning the fact that there is a motion, whose gravamen I
15 do not quite grasp, now pending before the Court.
16 And with regard to the procedural steps that
17 brought us up this far, I spoke briefly to Mr. McGowan, I
18 spoke even more briefly and tangentially to Mr. Howie today.
19 Those are the conversations that I have had.
20 But no one has talked with me about what I'm going
21 to testify about. Nobody has said, you know, "What do you
22 know about this? What do you know about that?" Except
23 Mr. McGowan asked me a couple of questions.
24 And nobody has said, "This is what I testified
25 to."
15
1 Q Okay. All right. And no one has said, "This is
2 what so and so testified to"?
3 A You mentioned, in a conversation, an affidavit
4 that had been filed by Ms. Brooks.
5 Q Right. That is an affidavit, though.
6 A Right. I believe Mr. McGowan may have mentioned
7 testimony by way of lining me up on the subject matter of
8 the question he was about to ask me. But I don't recall
9 anything else like that.
10 Q But certainly Mr. McGowan and Mr. Howie didn't
11 suggest what answers to give to certain questions?
12 A No.
13 Q Did anyone else?
14 A No.
15 Q All right. Now --
16 A And let me be clear, I have spoken, as well, to
17 Mr. Minton and to Ms. Brooks.
18 Q When did you talk to them?
19 A I talked to Mr. Minton last Saturday. I talked to
20 Ms. Brooks, Mmm, a couple days ago. I talked to her very
21 briefly today, just to get her to call Mr. Bunker and have
22 him call me, because I didn't have his number.
23 Q Why were you concerned about Mr. Bunker?
24 A Because I understand that there is a substantial
25 amount of interest in some tapes that I'm holding in trust
16
1 for him. And I wanted to reconfirm his ownership of the
2 tapes and receive instruction from him as to how he wanted
3 them handled.
4 Q Did he confirm the ownership of the tapes?
5 A Yes.
6 Q Does he own the tapes?
7 A Yes.
8 Q Did he give you instructions on turning them --
9 THE COURT: I'm sorry, who is this, Mr. Bunker?
10 MR. DANDAR: Mark Bunker.
11 BY MR. DANDAR:
12 Q And where was he when you were talking to him?
13 A I don't know. I assume he was in New Hampshire,
14 but I don't know.
15 Q Does he work for Ms. Brooks or Mr. Minton?
16 A I have no idea.
17 Q Okay. We're going to get to that, by the way.
18 Did Ms. Brooks or Mr. Minton, in the several times
19 that you talked to them recently, tell you what they were
20 testifying about?
21 A No. In fact, Mr. Minton was quite adamant. I
22 asked him a couple of times, "What's going on?"
23 And he said that he was under the rule of
24 sequestration and couldn't talk about his testimony. And
25 what he talked about was procedurally the sort of chain of
17
1 facts sort of that, had I been able to follow it, would have
2 explained how he got back in court.
3 Q Did he say to you that through his testimony the
4 Church of Scientology has filed a motion to disqualify me as
5 counsel and motion to dismiss the Lisa McPherson case?
6 A He told me that such motions had been filed. He
7 told me that -- or I guess I had the impression that either
8 his testimony or statements he made out of court were
9 regarded as being supportive of those motions.
10 Q What did Ms. Brooks -- did he get into any detail
11 about what that is?
12 A Only he said that he had recanted testimony about
13 the absence of a secret agreement regarding disposition of
14 the possible proceeds of the wrongful death case.
15 Q Anything else?
16 A He said there was some dispute or some issue
17 regarding the source and designation of funds provided to
18 you or to the estate or to your office.
19 And I gather that was the root of the dispute was
20 where those funds went, who they were given to or loaned to,
21 whether it was a gift or a loan.
22 Q Anything else?
23 A Not that I recall.
24 Q What about Ms. Brooks?
25 A My conversation with Ms. Brooks was almost
18
1 exclusively personal.
2 Q Well, tell us the part that wasn't personal.
3 A I guess the part that wasn't personal would be
4 along the lines of that, "This is a real mess. Mmm, it's
5 terrible. Mmm, I was on the stand for eight days."
6 And I pointed out to her, in Jacksonville we put
7 people in the electric chair in less time than that.
8 That was about the extent of what was not -- she
9 and I are quite good friends.
10 Q Are you still the attorney for Ms. Brooks?
11 A No.
12 Q When she talked to you, were you her attorney?
13 A No.
14 Q Were you the attorney for Mr. Minton when he
15 talked to you?
16 A No.
17 Q Did either one of them, in their conversations
18 with you, express remorse at lying under oath?
19 A I didn't discuss with Ms. Brooks, that I recall,
20 anything about her having lied under oath.
21 Mr. Minton's conversation with me was -- I mean,
22 it was essentially a monologue. I mean, I didn't ask him
23 any questions, other than, "What was that you said?"
24 And he -- I think everybody in here has heard him
25 speak at length, he's a very matter-of-fact person in
19
1 communication, so there wasn't an opportunity to express
2 regret if he has regret, and I didn't ask him if he had any
3 regret.
4 I did tell him I couldn't understand why anybody
5 would ever lie about it, since nothing that I had heard
6 suggested anything illegal or immoral or unethical,
7 regardless of what the truth was.
8 Q Did you hear, while you were representing the LMT,
9 Minton or Brooks, about the so-called secret agreement?
10 A I only heard that there was not one.
11 Q When did you hear that?
12 A At the times that the issue was being raised by
13 Scientology in connection with the wrongful death case, and
14 I assume during deposition prep.
15 But as it cropped up in the course of the
16 litigation, as it was brought to the surface of the wrongful
17 death litigation, is when the subject came up.
18 Q Okay. Now let's talk about witness prep for
19 depositions. Okay?
20 A Uh-huh.
21 Q And I'm going to tax your memory, but it's
22 probably better than mine. Let's go back to the first one
23 that you were involved with, May 24, 2000, Mr. Minton.
24 A That is the second, but --
25 Q Is that the second?
20
1 A Mr. Alexander was the first.
2 Q I'm sorry. Well, he's not involved in any of
3 this, as far as you know, right?
4 A Correct.
5 Q Mr. Minton's deposition, May 24, 2000, who prepped
6 him for his deposition?
7 A I did.
8 Q Do you know from any source in the world, that is
9 as broad as I can make it, if I prepped Mr. Minton on any
10 subject matter for that deposition?
11 A I have no information that you did.
12 Q When you said that Mr. Minton -- or the LMT needed
13 to get a new lawyer or needed to get a lawyer because of
14 conflict of interest, what were you talking about?
15 A Simply it would be inappropriate, as well as
16 taxing, for an attorney who was representing a litigant to
17 also represent people who have been deemed witnesses in the
18 case, other than just incidentally. I mean, it's
19 commonplace for parties' attorneys to file objections or
20 motions for protective order on behalf of a witness to keep
21 the witness from laying out money. But not when the witness
22 feels the need for real legal advice.
23 Q Now, when this issue came up of the so-called
24 secret agreement that didn't exist, what was your
25 involvement in representing the LMT, Minton and Brooks and
21
1 others in reference to that?
2 MR. WEINBERG: Objection as to the form, your
3 Honor. This secret agreement that didn't exist. He
4 just asked some direct questions as it's his direct
5 testimony.
6 THE COURT: Sustained.
7 MR. DANDAR: Okay, I'm sorry.
8 BY MR. DANDAR:
9 Q In reference to the issue of a secret agreement,
10 what did you do in reference to representing your clients
11 about that?
12 A During the time that I represented them, my
13 clients were never confronted with any issue that involved
14 their interests. It only came up with respect to my clients
15 as a subject of inquiry during their deposition.
16 Q And your clients, again, are who?
17 A At that time they were Mr. Minton, Ms. Brooks and
18 the LMT. And there were other people affiliated with the
19 LMT who I represented through the discovery process.
20 Q As part of this issue that you previously said was
21 raised by the Church of Scientology concerning a secret
22 agreement?
23 MR. WEINBERG: Excuse me, your Honor, we never
24 raised an issue of a secret agreement. We asked
25 questions about an agreement. The whole concept of
22
1 a secret agreement came out in Mr. Minton's
2 affidavit, after Ms. Brooks. So he keeps saying --
3 I object to the form.
4 THE COURT: Sustained.
5 MR. DANDAR: I take issue with that but I
6 don't -- I'll just go ahead.
7 THE COURT: You don't need to go there.
8 MR. DANDAR: We don't need to go there.
9 A I know what agreement you're talking about.
10 BY MR. DANDAR:
11 Q You tell me what the agreement I'm talking about
12 is then.
13 A It was alleged, and Mr. Minton stated in a radio
14 address sometime back '97, '98, ' 99, sometime like that,
15 that there was than an agreement that the bulk of the
16 proceeds of any wrongful death suit filed on behalf of the
17 estate of Lisa McPherson would be donated to some
18 organization. I believe it was specified to be a nonprofit
19 organization that was engaged in anti-cult activities. That
20 was the agreement that he had talked about in a non-judicial
21 setting, that I had seen a transcript offered in evidence,
22 and shown around in depositions.
23 And he had confirmed it, of course, in deposition
24 and, I don't know if, by that time, in court testimony, but
25 certainly in deposition that he had made the statement.
23
1 That was also the substance of the allegation at
2 the time -- times that it cropped up during the course of
3 the wrongful death case.
4 Q As his attorney, Mr. Merrett, did you observe any
5 difference in the way Mr. Minton -- or any difference in the
6 veracity of Mr. Minton's postings on the Internet or on the
7 radio or in newspaper interviews, compared with his
8 under-oath testimony?
9 A That would be information at least 50 percent of
10 which was gleaned through the attorney-client relationship
11 and through attorney-client conversations.
12 THE COURT: Are you going to waive it?
13 MR. HOWIE: Your Honor, we would waive as to
14 any matters that are directly related to the
15 depositions in which Mr. Merrett appeared as the
16 representative for Bob Minton.
17 We do not waive as to any conversations that
18 are not directly related -- attorney-privileged
19 conversations that are not directly related to those
20 depositions or the preparation for those
21 depositions.
22 THE COURT: How about regarding the statement
23 he made on radio regarding this agreement?
24 MR. HOWIE: Obviously, his statement on radio
25 would not constitute a privileged communication. If
24
1 the nature of Mr. Dandar's question is merely to ask
2 Mr. Merrett to compare his radio broadcast to some
3 statement he made on deposition, I suspect that can
4 be done without revealing attorney-client privilege.
5 However, again, for purposes of these
6 depositions and any preparation for these
7 depositions, I think we must admit that privilege
8 has been waived through Mr. Minton's previous
9 testimony.
10 A I think I understand --
11 THE COURT: Okay.
12 A -- to answer your question.
13 THE COURT: If there is anything you are not
14 going to answer because you think a privilege still
15 exists, you tell me, and anything Mr. Minton
16 continues to claim a privilege on his testimony, if
17 it exists, will be stricken.
18 A To answer your question, yes, there was a
19 difference in veracity between postings on the Internet and
20 comments in public and his testimony in deposition and in
21 court.
22 BY MR. DANDAR:
23 Q So which one contained the truthful statements
24 more often than the other?
25 MR. WEINBERG: Objection as to the form, your
25
1 Honor.
2 THE COURT: Overruled.
3 MR. WEINBERG: Which one contained truthful
4 statements --
5 MR. DANDAR: It's probably not a good question.
6 I'll withdraw it.
7 THE COURT: Well, I understood it.
8 MR. DANDAR: Then I'll keep it.
9 A So far as I was able to discern, the statements
10 that he made in connection -- directly in connection with
11 the litigation in deposition and in testimony were truthful.
12 The public statements and Internet statements
13 were, to a substantial degree, calculated at needling
14 Scientology, sometimes, I had the impression, creating
15 disturbance or distraction for Scientology's Office of
16 Special Affairs and those folks.
17 BY MR. DANDAR:
18 Q So radio, newspapers, speeches out in public,
19 Internet postings, he said and did things to rile up
20 Scientology?
21 A Correct.
22 THE COURT: Some of which were not exactly
23 true?
24 THE WITNESS: According to my understanding at
25 the time, yes.
26
1 For example, the radio statement was not
2 consistent with what I believed, from preparing him
3 for deposition and from sitting through his
4 deposition.
5 THE COURT: Well --
6 BY MR. DANDAR:
7 Q Do you know --
8 THE COURT: -- the radio statement was untrue,
9 it was false.
10 THE WITNESS: Correct. That was my
11 understanding.
12 BY MR. DANDAR:
13 Q Do you know of any instance, Mr. Merrett, in the
14 May 24, 2000 deposition, when Bob Minton lied under oath?
15 A Well, I would have to review the deposition. But
16 there was no point -- nothing of which I had knowledge of
17 falsity at the time. I mean, so far as I knew then, he was
18 testifying truthfully.
19 I heard then, since, he recanted testimony about
20 the agreement. I don't know whether he testified about that
21 in the deposition or not. And I don't know which is true at
22 this point.
23 Q Let me put it this way. As you sat through the
24 deposition of any of Mr. -- any of Mr. Minton's depositions
25 and he told something in his deposition under oath that you
27
1 knew to be false, what is your practice? Would you have
2 stopped him, conferred with him and told him to straighten
3 it up? Or would you just keep letting your client lie under
4 oath?
5 A Well, my obligation, in my practice, is that at
6 the first opportunity, point out to the client that it
7 appears that he has lied and that's immoral and illegal, and
8 he should correct it. But by the time one can confer with
9 one's client, it is a past wrongful act, one may not
10 disclose it except to the client.
11 Q The deposition of Mr. Minton was taken again in
12 September; September 18 of 2001. You sat in on that and
13 objected to many of the questions. Do you recall that?
14 A I don't recall specifically the deposition. But
15 I'm sure the transcript accurately reflects my presence.
16 Q And in that deposition, on advice of counsel,
17 Mr. Minton raised the Fifth Amendment privilege many times
18 concerning money going anywhere that he knew about, do you
19 recall that?
20 A Yes. Yes.
21 Q And Mr. Moxon was taking the deposition?
22 A I believe -- well, I'm taking your word for it as
23 to the date. I'm taking your word for it as to Mr. Moxon
24 taking the deposition. I did sit in depositions with
25 Mr. Minton where he raised financial issues.
28
1 Q You will rely on the transcript, right?
2 A Yes.
3 Q And in the deposition of October 2001 taken by
4 Mr. Rosen, for the first time that I know of, anyway, of
5 Mr. Minton, you were there for that, as well, correct?
6 A If that is what the transcript reflects.
7 Q Okay. Now, throughout all of the depositions that
8 you attended where Mr. Minton was being deposed, all of them
9 now, do you know of one instance that Mr. Minton lied under
10 oath?
11 A No. Except as I testified earlier. If I reviewed
12 them now, based on the information that I have received
13 since this current hearing or these motions have cropped up,
14 there may be things which are in there which might now be of
15 questionable veracity. But so far as I knew at the time --
16 at the time that he was testifying, no.
17 Q Let's make it clearer. At the time he was
18 testifying, if you had heard him say something that was not
19 truthful, would you have conferred with him about that?
20 A Yes. But I don't recall that I ever did hear him
21 say anything --
22 Q Do you recall conferring with him about
23 anything --
24 THE COURT: Let him finish his answer. You
25 don't recall having him say anything ...
29
1 A -- that I believed or suspected to be false during
2 his deposition.
3 THE COURT: Okay.
4 BY MR. DANDAR:
5 Q Let's go to Stacy Brooks. By the way, when you
6 represented Bob Minton, you represented LMT, you represented
7 Stacy Brooks, who was the client? All of them?
8 A It depends on the capacity in which they were
9 testifying. I did represent all three of those persons,
10 both simultaneously and actively, at different times. If
11 Mr. Minton was testifying as the -- as a representative, as
12 the president, which I think he did at least once as
13 president or chairman of the board of LMT, it would have
14 been in that capacity with whoever else attends it.
15 There was not a conflict among the interests of
16 the LMT, the interests of Ms. Brooks and the interests of
17 Mr. Minton.
18 Q During the time that you knew Mr. Minton and you
19 were his attorney and down here representing the Lisa
20 McPherson Trust, did you ever hear of Mr. Minton talking
21 about -- to other people, while you were present, so there
22 is no privilege -- his concern about tax evasion?
23 A Not that I recall.
24 Q Okay. Did you ever hear Mr. Minton talk about, to
25 other people, his concern about RICO charges being filed by
30
1 the Church of Scientology against him?
2 A I believe that he and Ms. Brooks expressed concern
3 that that was likely one of Scientology's goals, the purpose
4 of the collateral discovery being taken in the wrongful
5 death case was to conduct intelligence-gathering for
6 purposes of a subsequent RICO suit.
7 Q In fact, didn't Mr. Rosen -- do you recall
8 Mr. Rosen asking him questions at the October 2001
9 deposition, intimating or threatening directly that he had
10 committed criminal acts with the way he was bringing money
11 into the country?
12 A He may have. I don't recall.
13 Q I mean, you do recall in the deposition of
14 September 2001 by Mr. Moxon, as well as the deposition of
15 October 2001 by Mr. Rosen, that in both of those depositions
16 Mr. Minton raised the Fifth Amendment many times?
17 A Yes.
18 Q And isn't it true that a client -- your clients
19 will raise a Fifth Amendment to a question only on a good
20 faith basis, that they have a good faith basis to believe
21 they need to do that?
22 A Yes.
23 Q I mean, you don't advise your clients to
24 willy-nilly raise the Fifth Amendment just because they
25 don't want to answer a question?
31
1 A No.
2 Q Now let's go back to the secret agreement. Do you
3 recall preparing affidavits for your clients to file in the
4 Lisa McPherson wrongful death case concerning the absence of
5 a secret agreement?
6 A Yes. I say that. I recall that my clients did,
7 and I believe I drafted them.
8 Q Let me hand them up to you so you can take a look
9 at them.
10 MR. DANDAR: I don't know if this is already an
11 exhibit or not.
12 MR. FUGATE: I believe it is Defendant's 111,
13 your Honor.
14 MR. DANDAR: Is it?
15 MR. FUGATE: No. I thought it was the
16 affidavit he was talking about.
17 MR. DANDAR: I'll have it marked by the clerk
18 as Plaintiff's Exhibit Number --
19 THE CLERK: 44.
20 MR. DANDAR: -- 44.
21 THE COURT: Everybody is going so fast, it is
22 impossible for me to make notes.
23 MR. DANDAR: I'm sorry.
24 THE COURT: It is all right.
25 MR. DANDAR: I'm trying to go fast.
32
1 THE COURT: I am making some notes. Let me go
2 back to something you said.
3 THE WITNESS: Yes, ma'am.
4 THE COURT: You indicated both Mr. Minton and
5 Ms. Brooks expressed concern the real purpose of the
6 extensive -- maybe you didn't say extensive -- of
7 the discovery being taken in this case was to
8 ultimately --
9 THE WITNESS: Was to gather intelligence to
10 file a civil RICO action against Mr. Minton.
11 THE COURT: I guess when I think of a
12 deposition, I don't think of it being intelligence.
13 Intelligence, to me, is something that you are
14 gathering covertly.
15 So when you use the word "intelligence," are
16 you meaning they were gathering whatever information
17 they could gather from the depositions?
18 THE WITNESS: Yes, ma'am.
19 THE COURT: Okay.
20 BY MR. DANDAR:
21 Q Well --
22 THE COURT: Not some covert gathering out in
23 the hallway or something like that? I mean, in
24 other words, whatever they could learn in the
25 discovery?
33
1 THE WITNESS: The discovery was one component
2 of intelligence-gathering conducted by Scientology.
3 BY MR. DANDAR:
4 Q Are you aware of other components of
5 intelligence-gathering by Scientology other than the legal
6 process?
7 A Yes.
8 Q What is that?
9 A I know that -- I know personally that persons
10 hired by Scientology have followed me, when I have been in
11 this area, by automobile. I know that they have followed
12 other people who were affiliated with the Lisa McPherson
13 Trust while they were traveling by automobile, foot and
14 bicycle in this area.
15 I know that Scientology has had -- or had,
16 throughout the life of the Lisa McPherson Trust, both static
17 and mobile video surveillance of everybody coming and going
18 from the premises.
19 I mean, those are the ones I know of.
20 Q Did you ever discover something that appeared to
21 be a wire tap to the telephone lines of the Lisa McPherson
22 Trust?
23 A I was present when an unaccountable wire passing
24 from what appeared to be Scientology's trunk line into our
25 phone box was discovered -- or into the LMT phone box.
34
1 Q And what did you do about that?
2 A I -- I say I was present when it was discovered.
3 I'm not sure if I was present there on the sidewalk when it
4 was discovered. But I believe it was -- Mr. Ward was there.
5 And he has substantial amount of technical expertise. And I
6 told him that if it wasn't something that was going to
7 affect our telephone service, to just pull it out.
8 Q And what did he do?
9 A I believe he pulled it out.
10 Q All right.
11 THE COURT: I'm real stupid here. I don't know
12 anything about this. A trunk -- a trunk --
13 THE WITNESS: Trunk. A line, some kind of wire
14 coming from the direction of the Clearwater Bank
15 building. T-R-U-N-K.
16 THE COURT: Is this -- when I think trunk, I
17 think of something we pack clothes in or something
18 that goes in an automobile.
19 THE WITNESS: I'm thinking railroad line. A
20 trunk line is one that only goes in one direction.
21 THE COURT: It's a line, an actual phone line?
22 THE WITNESS: A wire. I don't know what a --
23 THE COURT: You found something going from -- a
24 trunk line to a phone line, which is a different
25 wire?
35
1 THE WITNESS: A wire coming from the
2 Clearwater -- from the direction of the Clearwater
3 Bank building, into the telephone junction box that
4 serviced the Lisa McPherson Trust building.
5 THE COURT: Okay.
6 BY MR. DANDAR:
7 Q And the Clearwater Bank building was a building
8 occupied and owned by the Church of Scientology. Correct?
9 A Correct.
10 Q Now, look at Exhibit 44, a notice of filing
11 affidavits in support of plaintiff's motion to strike
12 witnesses from the defendant's witness list. Do you see
13 that?
14 A Yes.
15 Q And take a look at the Grady Ward affidavit, the
16 first one. Who prepared that?
17 A I believe I did.
18 Q How can you tell?
19 A Mmm, the type face --
20 THE COURT: Wait, counselor. Where? What are
21 you looking at now?
22 MR. DANDAR: 44, Plaintiff's. Right here. I'm
23 sorry. I'll look up here, Judge, because you are
24 taking copious notes.
25 THE COURT: I'm trying, but sometimes you-all
36
1 get so far ahead of me and I can't do it.
2 THE WITNESS: Judge, this is the first
3 attachment which is the affidavit of Grady Ward. It
4 is about four pages back.
5 THE COURT: All right. I see it.
6 BY MR. DANDAR:
7 Q Mr. Ward was a contractor for the Lisa McPherson
8 Trust. Is that right?
9 A Correct.
10 Q And how can you tell you prepared this affidavit?
11 A It appears to be an affidavit prepared by me based
12 on the type face and size and the way that the style of the
13 case is set up.
14 Q Okay. Let me -- well, of course we won't have
15 enough time to do this.
16 A As well as the language of the jurat at the
17 commencement of the affidavit.
18 Q Okay. When you say the style of the caption, are
19 you talking about up here (indicating)?
20 A Yes, where the identity of the court and the case
21 number are affixed in the upper right-hand corner of the
22 first page of the affidavit.
23 Q Okay. And the jurat is at the end where Mr. --
24 A No, the jurat actually begins at the beginning of
25 the affidavit.
37
1 Q "Before me, the undersigned authority."
2 A Yes.
3 Q Is that your language?
4 A Yes.
5 Q Okay. Let's turn to -- well, let's turn to
6 Mr. Minton's --
7 MR. DANDAR: Okay, where is Dee at? Could you
8 assist me, please?
9 THE COURT: Is this the affidavit that is in
10 evidence?
11 MR. DANDAR: Yes.
12 MR. FUGATE: I can't see what it is, Judge, but
13 I think it is 111. And --
14 MR. WEINBERG: There are two of them there,
15 your Honor. One is in evidence and one is not,
16 apparently.
17 THE COURT: Well, I have a 111, 112 and 113.
18 MR. FUGATE: 111 is Mr. Minton. 112 is Ms. --
19 or Mrs. Liebreich. And 113 is Mr. Dandar.
20 MR. WEINBERG: 111 is one of the ones there.
21 But in this thing he just filed he has two Minton
22 affidavits, one of which is in evidence and one of
23 which is not.
24 THE COURT: Okay.
25 MR. WEINBERG: One of which is 111, and the
38
1 other one is not in evidence.
2 (A discussion was held off the record.)
3 BY MR. DANDAR:
4 Q So it's your -- Mr. Merrett, the way you do your
5 affidavits up in Jacksonville, you put the name of the court
6 from the center over to the right in the affidavit, correct?
7 A Correct.
8 Q And the jurat, "Before me, the undersigned
9 authority," this is the way you do your jurats in your
10 office?
11 A Yes. And what is distinctive about it is the
12 omission of the "personally known" language, which I always
13 omit when I'm having them sign not under my direct
14 supervision, because of the -- of the risk that -- sometimes
15 I have seen notaries just circle "Personally known," when
16 they didn't know the guys from Adam's ox, and by omitting
17 that part and leaving blank "for identification" it insures
18 the notary will see identification and the jurat will be in
19 proper form.
20 Q Now, this particular affidavit is of Mr. Minton,
21 correct?
22 A As custodian of the records of the LMT, not of him
23 personally.
24 Q And you prepared this affidavit?
25 A Yes. I'm sure I did.
39
1 Q All right. Turn to the next Robert Minton
2 affidavit. This is one for him personally, correct?
3 A Correct.
4 Q And this one, was this prepared by you?
5 A Yes.
6 Q It is because you can tell by the way you have the
7 format?
8 A Well, it's that. And looking at the two
9 affidavits, I recall drafting two separate affidavits
10 because of Mr. Minton's dual roles. And I was attempting to
11 cover all of the bases which I regarded as spurious under
12 which he might be dragged into the litigation for purposes
13 of discovery.
14 Q Okay. Why did you regard it as spurious?
15 A Because he has no information about the death of
16 the girl or about anything else that is actually pertinent
17 to the wrongful death case.
18 Q Well, let me ask you this. You were Mr. Minton's
19 attorney for the year --
20 THE COURT: I'm sorry, I have to ask. I'm
21 here, and I know I drive you crazy, and I apologize.
22 But this affidavit here, this one that is attached
23 now to -- is this -- what is this?
24 THE WITNESS: Plaintiff's 44.
25 MR. DANDAR: Plaintiff's 44.
40
1 THE COURT: Is this a "P"?
2 MR. DANDAR: Yes, it's a "P."
3 THE COURT: Okay. I see now. You don't write
4 very good.
5 MR. DANDAR: I really don't. And the nuns that
6 taught me how to write always told me that.
7 THE COURT: Now that I know what this is, this
8 Plaintiff's 44, the affidavit of Robert Minton that
9 is two pages that I am looking at -- well, actually
10 it's three pages, this is also in evidence as
11 Defendant's 111, is that correct?
12 MR. WEINBERG: Right. Yes.
13 MR. FUGATE: Okay, I'll --
14 THE COURT: Now I have got it. Now I'm up to
15 date. Okay. Go ahead.
16 MR. DANDAR: This was prepared by Mr. Merrett.
17 THE WITNESS: Correct.
18 BY MR. DANDAR:
19 Q How did Mr. Minton get it?
20 A Either -- it would have been one of three ways.
21 Either I E-mailed it to him and had him print out an
22 original, sign it, fax it back or Fed Ex it back, or I Fed
23 Ex'd it to him so it could be executed and Fed Ex'd back, or
24 may have -- from the quality of document -- I doubt it, it
25 may have been faxed to him for signature and faxed and Fed
41
1 Ex'd.
2 Q So you are pretty positive this was not done in
3 Clearwater?
4 A Yes. For the one thing, the notary is a New
5 Hampshire notary.
6 Q How do you know that?
7 A The notary stamp on the third page, if you can
8 read the -- the middle line, you see "C-New," then you can
9 make out, even on my copy, an "H" at the beginning of the
10 next word.
11 Q I think that says "New Hampshire."
12 A Yes.
13 Q And this was signed by Mr. Minton on December 13
14 of 2000, correct?
15 A A New Hampshire notary public says so.
16 Q All right. Okay. Now --
17 THE COURT: You would have E-mailed it, Fed
18 Ex'd it, or what was the third?
19 THE WITNESS: Faxed it. But that is unlikely,
20 based on the quality of the copy.
21 THE COURT: All right.
22 BY MR. DANDAR:
23 Q Now, did you also send one to Stacy Brooks?
24 A I prepared one for Stacy Brooks.
25 Q And is this the one right after Mr. Minton's
42
1 second one, this is Stacy Brooks', is this something --
2 again, your format, where the caption of the case, the name
3 of the court, is to the right of center line, and the jurat
4 is the jurat you use?
5 A Yes.
6 Q And what about the notary?
7 A That appears to be the same New Hampshire notary.
8 Q Also dated December 13, 2000?
9 A Yes.
10 Q Okay. Now, according to the notice of filing, I
11 am the one that filed these affidavits of Ward, two of
12 Minton, and one of Brooks, one of Keller, on December 14,
13 2000.
14 How did I get these affidavits?
15 A I believe I delivered them to you or had them
16 delivered to you.
17 Q Do you recall coming in to my office?
18 A I was in your office on a number of occasions.
19 Q Okay.
20 A But I would think that -- I think that either at
21 this same time or almost immediately thereafter, I was -- I
22 had filed or was filing motions for protective order on
23 behalf of these people. I believe I used these same
24 affidavits in filings I made on their behalf, because their
25 interests in being deposed and your interests not having to
43
1 sit through their depositions were conterminous.
2 Q Okay. Was it the fact that Mr. Moxon and his
3 client, the Church of Scientology Flag Service Organization,
4 Inc., were conducting discovery after discovery after
5 discovery of the financial information of Mr. Minton,
6 Ms. Brooks and the Lisa McPherson Trust that caused them the
7 most concern?
8 MR. WEINBERG: Objection as to the form.
9 Objection as to the question. I mean, it's a
10 leading question. He's on direct. Was it the fact
11 that such and such caused him all this concern.
12 That is a very leading, suggestive question.
13 THE COURT: Overruled.
14 A I wouldn't say that. There were also --
15 THE COURT: See how unleading it was?
16 MR. WEINBERG: Apparently -- apparently I stand
17 corrected.
18 A Yes, as well as the other people who are named in
19 this motion that are Plaintiff's 44, and other people who
20 were not named in there who were at various times bumped by
21 the discovery train, were profoundly concerned about privacy
22 issues and about personal safety issues unrelated to
23 financial questions.
24 BY MR. DANDAR:
25 Q Okay. Why were they concerned for their safety?
44
1 A Scientology has a history of --
2 MR. WEINBERG: Objection, your Honor.
3 A -- practices.
4 MR. WEINBERG: Foundation. Personal knowledge,
5 "Scientology has a history."
6 THE COURT: I don't think so. This is what was
7 their concern. That is what we're -- what we're
8 involved with here. It didn't say that is what was
9 true. It is what was their concern, which is the
10 same reason that would give them basis to lie or not
11 lie.
12 MR. WEINBERG: When he said other people, it is
13 based on hearsay, as well.
14 THE COURT: He ought to know what -- he's
15 trying to tell us, I think, what his clients' fears
16 were.
17 MR. WEINBERG: I thought the question was other
18 people, other than Mr. Minton and Ms. Brooks. That
19 is what I thought I heard.
20 THE COURT: Overruled.
21 BY MR. DANDAR:
22 Q What about Mr. Minton, was he afraid or concerned,
23 or however you would phrase it, about Scientology and
24 Scientology's discovery?
25 A Was he concerned about it?
45
1 Q Yes.
2 A Yes.
3 Q How much? How -- can you quantify it?
4 A It's difficult to quantify it because, as I have
5 told you before, Mr. Minton is very matter of fact. In
6 fact, he is admirably cool, for the most part, regardless of
7 what is going on. So you really couldn't tell -- most
8 people couldn't tell, including me, whether a given thing
9 upset him more or less than the fact that he didn't get the
10 wine he ordered at supper. He's pretty even.
11 Q Let me see if I can give you an example. Do you
12 recall the Stacy Brooks deposition of June 2000?
13 A Not specifically.
14 Q Do you recall the Stacy Brooks deposition where
15 she was asked a question about donations to the Lisa
16 McPherson Trust?
17 A I recall that she was asked about donations during
18 the deposition.
19 Q Do you recall Stacy Brooks answering that question
20 rather than pleading the Fifth Amendment?
21 A I don't specifically recall that.
22 THE COURT: I'm sorry, I was having a mental
23 lapse here. Would you tell me what you just said?
24 BY MR. DANDAR:
25 Q Do you recall Stacy Brooks, in the June 2000
46
1 deposition, answering the question of Mr. Moxon about
2 donations to the Lisa McPherson Trust, rather than pleading
3 the Fifth Amendment?
4 A I don't specifically recall that.
5 Q Were you ever fired by Mr. Minton?
6 A Are you -- are you using "fired" as an obnoxious
7 term of art, or just as a way of saying termination of a
8 relationship? Of a professional relationship?
9 Q Well, it may not have been termination, it may
10 have been just "Get out of town, go back to Jacksonville and
11 I'll call you when I need you later," something like that.
12 Termination or leave town?
13 A No.
14 Q Okay. So it's --
15 A I mean, now, the relationship was terminated.
16 Ms. Brooks notified me, I think she sent me a letter, maybe
17 an E-Mail, that said that -- that she and the LMT were
18 retaining other counsel.
19 By that point, which I think was early this year,
20 I'm not sure -- well, I know it was this year, I think early
21 this year -- by that point I don't believe I was still
22 representing Mr. Minton in any active way.
23 Q Okay. Do you have any recollection at all of
24 Mr. Minton becoming extremely upset following the deposition
25 of Stacy Brooks, because she mentioned in the deposition of
47
1 June 2000 that the Lisa McPherson Trust received a $300,000
2 donation from Operation Clambake?
3 A No.
4 Q When you sat in on the deposition of Stacy Brooks
5 as her attorney in June of 2000, do you recall any instance
6 where she lied under oath?
7 A I believe that the answer to that question either
8 way would implicate Ms. Brooks' attorney-client privilege.
9 THE COURT: Counsel?
10 MR. McGOWAN: Certainly to the extent that
11 she's recanted in her affidavit, I think the
12 privilege is waived. By the question, I don't know
13 what -- if it goes to that or to something else.
14 THE COURT: Well, I don't know, either,
15 counsel. But her credibility is certainly at issue
16 here, and she has recanted, then she said she didn't
17 tell any other lies. So it would seem to me that
18 whatever it is that she's either got to waive it or
19 I have got to strike her testimony. I don't get it
20 here.
21 MR. McGOWAN: I agree. And --
22 THE COURT: Okay.
23 MR. McGOWAN: And she -- she waives it or she
24 doesn't waive it.
25 THE WITNESS: Am I to answer?
48
1 THE COURT: Yes.
2 A I do not recall what the subject matter or
3 question or answer was. But I know, during the first
4 deposition Ms. Brooks gave, which was attended by Judge
5 Beach, she did give an answer which I believed at the time
6 to be false.
7 At the first opportunity, I was quite agitated
8 with her because that is not something for which I have any
9 great love or patience and explained to her that she either
10 needed to correct the testimony or brace herself for the
11 possibility that her testimony would be found to be false
12 and there might be consequences.
13 BY MR. DANDAR:
14 Q What was false?
15 A I don't recall.
16 Q And what did she do after receiving your
17 instructions or advice?
18 A Well, she became even more agitated than I was.
19 So I was then attempting to calm her down. But I don't
20 recall whether or not she fixed whatever the testimony was.
21 Q Did you ever learn that the LMT received a
22 $300,000 payment, donation, whatever, from Operation
23 Clambake?
24 A Yes.
25 Q Did you have anything to do with securing or
49
1 arranging for that payment?
2 A Yes.
3 Q What did you do?
4 A I located an individual over the Internet to
5 operate as a go-between, severing initial direct connect
6 between the LMT and Operation Clambake in order to protect
7 Operation Clambake and whatever source of the money was from
8 discovery by Scientology.
9 Q And who was that?
10 A Who was what?
11 Q Who was this straw man?
12 A I don't know.
13 Q Wait a minute. What did the role -- what role did
14 this third party play?
15 A The third party telephoned Operation Clambake, I
16 think it's Andreas Heldal-Lund --
17 THE COURT: Is this a real person, by the way?
18 MR. DANDAR: Yes.
19 THE COURT: I'm so confused about Operation
20 Clambake. I thought this morning I was told --
21 THE WITNESS: Operation Clambake is a website
22 owned and operated by Andreas Heldal-Lund.
23 THE COURT: That is right, Mr. Minton did say
24 it was a corporation.
25 MR. DANDAR: Recently.
50
1 THE COURT: You believe Andreas Lund, whatever
2 it is, is a real live person?
3 THE WITNESS: Yes, ma'am.
4 THE COURT: Who is a Norwegian man?
5 THE WITNESS: So far as I know, he's Norwegian.
6 THE COURT: All right. Who is in some fashion
7 or another president, chairman of the board,
8 something, in Operation Clambake?
9 THE WITNESS: Yes, ma'am.
10 THE COURT: Okay.
11 BY MR. DANDAR:
12 Q And how do you know he's real? How do you know
13 that is not a fictitious name used by somebody that doesn't
14 want to know who they are?
15 A I don't.
16 THE COURT: No. That is a dumb question.
17 MR. DANDAR: I know.
18 THE COURT: The person doesn't want to know who
19 they are? The person doesn't want somebody else to
20 know who they are?
21 MR. DANDAR: I like that last question.
22 A I -- people speak about Mr. Lund as though he were
23 real.
24 I have chatted with a person who claims to be
25 Mr. Lund over the Internet. He is not spoken of as a
51
1 legendary or fictitious person.
2 BY MR. DANDAR:
3 Q Did you ever speak to him over the phone?
4 A No.
5 Q Did you ever meet him in person?
6 A I don't think so.
7 Q So what did this third party do with Mr. Lund?
8 A The third party contacted Mr. Lund and said he was
9 speaking on behalf of people in Europe who wished to donate
10 money to the Lisa McPherson Trust, but for obvious reasons
11 did not wish to be identified as supporters of the Lisa
12 McPherson Trust and wanted Mr. Lund to handle the actual
13 transfer of the money, to receive a check, to deposit the
14 check, and then to write a check to the Lisa McPherson
15 Trust.
16 The individual also called the Lisa McPherson
17 Trust and advised Ms. Brooks that this was being arranged,
18 and that the -- Mr. Lund or someone, I don't know whether it
19 was identified as Mr. Lund, but that somebody would be
20 calling to notify her of the impending transfer.
21 Q And this is someone you just met in a chat room on
22 the Internet?
23 A Yes.
24 Q How could you trust somebody in a chat room on the
25 Internet?
52
1 A Well, there is nothing to steal, break or run away
2 with in a transaction like that.
3 Q He was just going to relay the message to
4 Operation Clambake?
5 A Correct.
6 Q He wasn't going to get the money to give to
7 Operation Clambake?
8 A Correct. The money was being handled by Operation
9 Clambake -- or by Mr. Lund, whoever it was.
10 Q When did you place this contact to the person in
11 the chat room?
12 A I don't know. It would have been probably within
13 a week of the time that Mr. Lund was contacted.
14 THE COURT: I'm really stupid now. How do you
15 talk to somebody on the website in a chat room that
16 everybody doesn't know about it?
17 MR. DANDAR: You can have a secret --
18 THE WITNESS: It is called a DCC direct client
19 connection. And there is nothing to it. You just
20 type in "/DCC, The Judge," and then my computer and
21 your computer are hooked up and we're typing in back
22 and forth and it is only going between our
23 computers, not running through the server.
24 THE COURT: How do you get somebody? How do
25 you get somebody that can do something very covert
53
1 involving money from Norway -- I mean how do you
2 get --
3 THE WITNESS: Basically.
4 THE COURT: Okay.
5 THE WITNESS: "if you know anybody, have them
6 contact me. I'll be on the chat room."
7 BY MR. DANDAR:
8 Q Well, I need to -- do your best to pinpoint the
9 month and year. I mean, she talked about it -- Ms. Brooks
10 talked about it in her June 2000 deposition. How soon
11 before that was it?
12 MR. WEINBERG: Well, I mean, she may have. I
13 mean, are you representing that she did?
14 MR. DANDAR: Yes.
15 MR. WEINBERG: Because I don't have that
16 committed to memory.
17 MR. DANDAR: I do.
18 A I don't know.
19 THE COURT: I don't have her depositions at
20 all, so --
21 A I don't know what the time span was between the --
22 her deposition and the transfer of money. I do know that
23 the transfer of the money was delayed after it was received
24 by Mr. Lund -- or I say I know that. I was told that.
25
54
1 BY MR. DANDAR:
2 Q Could it have been more than a month before her
3 deposition?
4 A It could have been, but --
5 Q But you don't know?
6 A I don't know.
7 Q All right. I understand. That is all right.
8 Did you use any code names?
9 A The individual who was handling the message
10 identified himself as the "Fat Man."
11 Q Is that right? And did you come up with that
12 name?
13 A Yes.
14 Q Why did you come up with the name the "Fat Man"?
15 A I guess I was thinking about Raymond Chandler, the
16 "Thin Man" novels. I don't know.
17 Q Mr. Merrett, did I come up with the name the "Fat
18 Man"?
19 A Not in connection with that transaction or
20 otherwise, that I know of.
21 Q Was I ever connected with this transaction?
22 A Not --
23 Q Operation --
24 A Not that I know of.
25 Q Operation Clambake?
55
1 A Not that I know of.
2 Q The "Fat Man" or anything like that?
3 A No. But you need to understand that I don't know
4 what the next circle out in the transaction was, which is to
5 say where the money came from.
6 Q You don't know --
7 THE COURT: Well, if I were to tell you that
8 Mr. Minton has testified that the money came from
9 him, would you know what the next circle out was?
10 THE WITNESS: Mmm, investment banking would be
11 my guess. I think that is where his money comes
12 from.
13 THE COURT: Well, you did not know this money
14 was coming from Mr. Minton?
15 THE WITNESS: No.
16 BY MR. DANDAR:
17 Q Mr. Merrett, this is a very important area. So
18 you did not know that the money that was being transferred
19 to Operation Clambake through the "Fat Man" was coming
20 really from the bank account of Mr. Minton?
21 A That is correct.
22 Q Did you have conversations with Mr. Minton about
23 how this money --
24 THE COURT: Wait a minute. Wait a minute. I
25 don't get it. See, I don't know, I'm out of my
56
1 league here because I don't understand this.
2 This term the "Fat Man" --
3 THE WITNESS: Yes, ma'am?
4 THE COURT: -- I don't understand. Does he
5 become -- is he the person you are communicating
6 with? Or is he the sender of the money from
7 Norway --
8 THE WITNESS: No, ma'am, all this person did
9 was communicate respectively with the LMT -- so far
10 as I know, with the LMT and with Mr. Heldal-Lund in
11 Norway, advised Mr. Lund that people in Europe
12 wanted to send money to be transferred by Mr. Lund
13 to the LMT, and advised LMT that Mr. Lund would be
14 receiving money from people in Europe and sending it
15 to the LMT so they could make whatever banking
16 arrangement they needed to make to transfer money
17 once it was received by Mr. Heldal-Lund.
18 THE COURT: Okay.
19 BY MR. DANDAR:
20 Q This third party, is the --
21 THE COURT: Wouldn't that be awful? I could
22 never work for the FBI or CIA, I would always be
23 going, "Huh? What? I don't get it." Maybe one
24 gets trained and they understand it better.
25 Go ahead.
57
1 BY MR. DANDAR:
2 Q Did the person you contacted in the chat room, did
3 they have a name?
4 A Not that I know.
5 Q Did the person in the chat room, did you tell that
6 person that he or she should use the name for themselves --
7 herself, himself, as the "Fat Man"?
8 A Yes.
9 Q So when Heldal-Lund gets a phone call from this
10 person, this person identified himself, herself, as the "Fat
11 Man"?
12 A Yes.
13 Q All right. Now, who calls the LMT to say it's
14 time to send the money?
15 A I don't understand your question.
16 Q All right. Did someone call the LMT and say, "Go
17 ahead and send the money, I contacted Operation Clambake?"
18 Did the "Fat Man" call LMT?
19 A Yes.
20 Q And who did the "Fat Man" talk to?
21 A I think it was Ms. Brooks, but I'm not sure.
22 Q Okay. And, well, what do you know? I mean, what
23 do you know about who is the person that put in progress the
24 transfer of the money to Operation Clambake?
25 A I don't know. What I know is that Mr. Minton and
58
1 Ms. Brooks said that there were people in Europe who wanted
2 to send money who didn't want to be identified.
3 Q That is what they told you?
4 A Correct.
5 Q And until the Judge told you today that that money
6 was Mr. Minton's money, is that the first time you heard
7 that?
8 A Well, no. I mean, Scientology has been saying it
9 for a year and a half.
10 Q When, if any -- was there ever a time when
11 Mr. Minton told you, "Oh, by the way, John, that money that
12 came in from Operation Clambake was really my money"?
13 A No.
14 Q Does Ms. Brooks ever tell you, "Oh, by the way,
15 John, the money that we arranged to get from Operation
16 Clambake is really Bob Minton's money"?
17 A No.
18 Q So when she testified in her deposition in June of
19 2000 that this was a donation from Operation Clambake, you
20 thought she was telling the truth?
21 A Correct.
22 Q It was just a charade?
23 THE COURT: She said she was telling the truth.
24 She said Mr. Minton didn't tell her, either.
25 A And I don't think that the testimony was that it
59
1 was a donation from Operation Clambake. I think it was
2 communicated to her that this wasn't Andreas Heldal-Lund's
3 money, it was money he was getting from somebody in Europe.
4 BY MR. DANDAR:
5 Q When was that communicated to Ms. Brooks?
6 A Sometime after the initial telephone call from the
7 "Fat Man."
8 Q But she knew that the money that was coming from
9 Operation Clambake was not money that belonged to Operation
10 Clambake before her June 2000 deposition?
11 A I don't know that for sure. My understanding is
12 that Heldal-Lund told her that it wasn't his money.
13 Q Okay.
14 A But I wasn't party to that conversation.
15 Q Now, in that same deposition, Ms. Brooks talked
16 about --
17 THE COURT: I'm sorry, could I ask you one
18 question?
19 When Mr. Minton told you that there were people
20 in Europe that wanted to contribute money to -- was
21 it Lisa McPherson, or was it to LMT?
22 THE WITNESS: The trust, LMT.
23 THE COURT: LMT? Okay.
24 BY MR. DANDAR:
25 Q When Ms. Brooks talked about the LMT getting a
60
1 direct anonymous donation of $500,000 from some anonymous
2 source in Europe, when she said that in her deposition, did
3 you know in advance that the LMT had received a $500,000
4 anonymous donation?
5 MR. WEINBERG: Your Honor, again, are you
6 representing that somewhere in this deposition in
7 June is where she said that?
8 MR. DANDAR: Yes. Unfortunately, I don't have
9 the depositions with me.
10 MR. WEINBERG: Well, then I object to the form.
11 If -- if he wants to ask a question about does he
12 have any recollection of some $500,000, I have no
13 problem with that. But --
14 THE COURT: I think I'm going to overrule your
15 objection. If it turns out it wasn't in the June
16 deposition, then it isn't. I have to assume if the
17 lawyer made notes, he knows what he's talking about.
18 I don't have it. I looked myself. I don't have
19 hers. I have Mr. Minton's and I have
20 Ms. Liebreich's. I don't have Ms. Brooks'
21 deposition. Quite frankly, I don't really want to
22 read all her deposition.
23 MR. WEINBERG: I mean, the only -- the real
24 objection is asking Mr. Merrett about something that
25 Ms. Brooks said in a deposition with some precision,
61
1 I mean, when he doesn't -- he's obviously said he
2 has no specific recollection of any of this.
3 THE COURT: I understand what these questions
4 are all about. Quite frankly, I think the fashion
5 in which they are being asked are appropriate.
6 MR. WEINBERG: Okay.
7 THE COURT: I mean, this is not exact. This
8 is -- this is a witness who is being asked what he
9 knew.
10 And I know, most likely, where -- or I suspect
11 where counsel is going with that, it doesn't require
12 exactness.
13 MR. WEINBERG: Fine, your Honor. I just
14 wanted --
15 THE COURT: You made your objection. It is
16 overruled. How is that?
17 MR. WEINBERG: That is fine.
18 MR. DANDAR: Just give me a second, Judge, and
19 see what I can --
20 THE WITNESS: Judge, if it is helpful, I'm
21 answering these questions on the same assumption you
22 are operating, that Mr. Dandar is saying.
23 THE COURT: Yes.
24 MR. WEINBERG: As long as we do that, that is
25 fine.
62
1 THE COURT: Yes. Okay. I mean, I guess in
2 some deposition -- he said it's the June deposition.
3 If it's not in the June deposition or any
4 deposition, why, this is really a waste of time.
5 MR. WEINBERG: And if I knew -- I just can't
6 keep them straight in my mind.
7 THE COURT: I know for a fact there was a
8 $500,000 payment made to LMT. And I know for a fact
9 there was a $300,000 payment made to LMT. And I
10 know for a fact Mr. Minton lied about both of them
11 on his depositions. I know for a fact he didn't
12 clear it up on his affidavit. And I know for a fact
13 the first time it was cleared up was after the
14 testimony here.
15 I have to assume that all came from something
16 that I read. So I assume it is in all this
17 somewhere. That is why I'm saying, that is
18 enough --
19 MR. WEINBERG: So that is fine.
20 THE COURT: All right.
21 MR. DANDAR: Judge, I'm going to print this
22 out, great technology that we have today.
23 THE WITNESS: Actually, if it's not out of
24 school, Judge, I think we resolved that issue,
25 Mr. Dandar.
63
1 THE COURT: I think we have, too, but if you
2 keep getting objections --
3 MR. WEINBERG: You won't get any more.
4 THE COURT: All right.
5 MR. WEINBERG: I just wanted that cleared up.
6 MR. DANDAR: All right.
7 THE COURT: If you were trying to impeach him
8 from a deposition, I would say let's go to the date
9 and page and the line. This is not that.
10 MR. WEINBERG: That is fine.
11 THE COURT: So go on ahead, Mr. Dandar.
12 BY MR. DANDAR:
13 Q Mr. Merrett, in the September 7, 2001 --
14 September 7, 2001 deposition of Stacy Brooks that you
15 appeared at as her counsel, on Page 62, which is cut off at
16 the top here, but -- and you can't even see it, I can't see
17 it -- there we go.
18 Apparently there was a time in the summer when
19 Mr. Minton went to a hospital up in New Hampshire, do you
20 recall that?
21 A Yes.
22 Q And Ms. Brooks was asked by Mr. Moxon: "And when
23 you were there, did you ask him who these anonymous checks
24 came from --"
25 She said: "No."
64
1 "Question: -- that you had testified about."
2 So there is a deposition before September of 2001,
3 which I'm telling the Court and everyone that I believe is
4 June of 2000.
5 "-- that you had testified about, the $500,000,"
6 that should not be "Zoe," I don't know what that is " -- and
7 the 300,000?"
8 And she said: "No, I didn't talk to him about
9 that.
10 "Did you ask him if he had any agreement with the
11 people that had given him this money?
12 "No.
13 "Why not?
14 "Well, he was in the hospital. He almost died.
15 It wasn't appropriate to be discussing business at the
16 time."
17 Now, this is September 7 of 2001. Did you,
18 Mr. Merrett, know that the $300,000 from Operation Clambake
19 and the $500,000 from anonymous sources in Europe, all that
20 was Mr. Minton's money?
21 A No. I had no information about that.
22 Q Did you have any conversations with Mr. Minton
23 about who in Europe would send to LMT anonymously $500,000?
24 A No.
25 Q Did you ever hear Mr. Minton deny that the
65
1 $500,000 was from an anonymous source?
2 A I don't believe I ever heard the subject
3 discussed.
4 Q Okay. Did you ever hear Mr. Minton say, before
5 the September 7, 2001 deposition of Ms. Brooks, that the
6 $300,000 from Operation Clambake really wasn't from
7 Operation Clambake?
8 A Well, you are sort of, I guess, getting ahead
9 of -- behind yourself. Nobody thought it was from Operation
10 Clambake except in an immediate physical sense.
11 Q Okay.
12 THE COURT: Who did -- who did everybody think
13 it was from? These anonymous donors?
14 THE WITNESS: Somebody in Europe. Yes, ma'am.
15 THE COURT: In other words, there were folks
16 that might have wanted to -- in your mind, that
17 might have wanted to contribute who did not want the
18 Church of Scientology to know they were
19 contributing?
20 THE WITNESS: Correct.
21 THE COURT: So when you were told there were
22 anonymous sources who wished to make contributions,
23 this didn't surprise you that they might want to
24 remain anonymous?
25 THE WITNESS: No. It surprised me that
66
1 Mr. Minton had been up front about any money that he
2 had put into it.
3 I mean, if it had been me, I would have thrown
4 a bag of cash over the transom.
5 THE COURT: So whereas in most cases when we
6 think, well, gee, somebody wanted to contribute
7 $500,000 anonymously, or $300,000 anonymously, or
8 any amount of money anonymously, because of your
9 knowledge of people's -- I'm not saying it is
10 true -- but of people's fears about the Church of
11 Scientology knowing they were making contributions
12 to either LMT or the Lisa McPherson Trust, to you,
13 as a lawyer, it did not sound surprising that people
14 would make those kind of contributions anonymously?
15 THE WITNESS: No, ma'am. My expectation would
16 be any contributions made would be anonymously,
17 whether it was five bucks or 500,000.
18 BY MR. DANDAR:
19 Q Okay, Mr. Merrett, going back to the May of 2000
20 deposition of Mr. Minton, he testified about how much money
21 he had given me in reference to the Lisa McPherson case,
22 that he personally wrote checks for $1,050,000.
23 You were present when he said that, right?
24 A I was present when he testified to whatever
25 amount. I have heard that amount before from Mr. Minton.
67
1 Q You heard that amount before?
2 A Yes.
3 Q Do you recall Mr. Minton giving me a check from a
4 bank called UBS that had nobody's name on it except mine?
5 A No.
6 Q For $500,000 in May of 2000?
7 A No.
8 Q Did you have any discussions with Mr. Minton that
9 he had given me a check for $500,000?
10 A No.
11 Q Mr. Merrett, there came a time when the Court
12 ordered the LMT to produce records to the Church of
13 Scientology. Do you recall that?
14 A There was more than one time and more than one set
15 of records.
16 Q Okay. In fact, you were representing LMT when the
17 Court appointed a special master, Michael Keane, to come
18 into the offices of the LMT and look at the computers and
19 all of the books and records?
20 A That is correct.
21 Q All right. Well, here is something -- maybe I am
22 messed up on the dates but I'm not sure. This is just a
23 very general question. Forget about dates.
24 A Okay.
25 Q Okay? Mr. Merrett, did you ever advise Stacy
68
1 Brooks how to lie in her deposition?
2 A No.
3 Q I don't mean to be insulting but I just have to
4 ask you this.
5 A No. What -- given the considerations that the
6 clients had expressed, what I told Mr. Brooks and --
7 Ms. Brooks and Mr. Minton, in preparing to testify for the
8 deposition, was that they could answer the question
9 truthfully, they could plead the Fifth, they could refuse to
10 answer the question and litigate the issue of relevance and
11 discoverability.
12 And I also told them, made it clear to them, which
13 is an accurate statement of the law, that they were not
14 obliged to help their interrogator through the
15 interrogation.
16 But that is the only advice that I gave them, or
17 anybody else, in preparing for deposition.
18 Q That last point of advice is what most lawyers
19 tell their client, is just answer the question that is
20 asked?
21 A Exactly.
22 Q Don't volunteer?
23 A Exactly.
24 Q Well, let me just tell you what I'm looking at so
25 you'll know why I'm asking these questions. All right? And
69
1 I'll be glad to give you a copy. Unfortunately, this is --
2 it's in evidence. It is Ms. Brooks' affidavit dated --
3 well, son of a gun -- it is the second affidavit in this
4 case. It is 35 paragraphs long.
5 THE COURT: I may have it.
6 MR. DANDAR: April 29, 2002.
7 THE COURT: What page are you looking at?
8 MR. DANDAR: Paragraph 27.
9 THE COURT: If it is not something I have
10 written all over, I'll let him look at mine. But --
11 but it is so I can't give him mine.
12 MR. DANDAR: All right, I'll let him look at
13 the one I got off the Internet because --
14 A Which paragraph?
15 BY MR. DANDAR:
16 Q 27. Read it out loud, please.
17 A "John Merrett represented me at this deposition
18 and knew that I was testifying falsely. Prior to my
19 deposition, he had coached me regarding how to falsely
20 answer questions about the source of LMT funds. Mr. Merrett
21 had also advised me to leave unedited video footage from the
22 LMT in the hallway and it would be 'taken care of.' I
23 directed that they be put there and I never saw them again.
24 I was also aware that several hard drives were removed from
25 computers in LMT prior to the special master's inspection of
70
1 the LMT."
2 Q Is that the end of Paragraph 27?
3 A Yes.
4 Q All right. Is any of that true?
5 A Well, some of it, I have no way of knowing that it
6 is true. Do you want me to go through it?
7 Q Go through it sentence by sentence.
8 A The first sentence, "John Merrett represented me
9 at this deposition and knew I was testifying falsely," it is
10 correct at one of her depositions she testified to something
11 which I believed to be false and about which I upbraided her
12 at the first opportunity. However, I did not know she was
13 going to testify falsely.
14 Q Okay.
15 A "Prior to my deposition, he coached me how to
16 falsely answer questions regarding the source of LMT funds."
17 If what is meant by that is that I knowingly
18 coached her to testify falsely, that is incorrect. She has
19 said to me, though, that that is not what she meant, that
20 what she meant was that I had prepared her for the
21 deposition and that the information that I had received with
22 which to prepare her was false.
23 Q What information is that?
24 A Whatever the information is she's alleging was
25 falsely attested to in the deposition.
71
1 Q Well --
2 A In other words, she -- she told me that she did
3 not mean by that statement to say that I had knowingly or
4 purposely prepared her to give false testimony. But,
5 rather, that I had prepared her to give testimony which was,
6 as a matter of fact, false.
7 THE COURT: When did she have this conversation
8 with you?
9 THE WITNESS: I want to say it -- it would have
10 been this week, Judge, sometime during the day, one
11 day this week.
12 THE COURT: She called you on the phone or
13 something?
14 THE WITNESS: No, I had talked to Mr. Minton on
15 Sunday. And I wanted to talk to Ms. Brooks but she
16 wasn't around. I wanted to talk to her just to see
17 how she was doing.
18 And when I was finally able to catch up with
19 her was when -- one afternoon during the week. And
20 I -- I told her that I was not particularly thrilled
21 about being accused of suborning perjury. And she
22 said that that wasn't what she had meant.
23 THE COURT: What is it exactly she had meant?
24 THE WITNESS: What she said was the testimony
25 she gave was false -- or she gave some false
72
1 testimony during the preparation of the deposition,
2 and I was the person that prepared her to testify.
3 THE COURT: But you did not know she was
4 testifying falsely?
5 THE WITNESS: Correct. After the fact, there
6 was one statement she made in the course of the
7 deposition that I believed to be false and I
8 remonstrated her about it at a break.
9 THE COURT: These would have been two different
10 things, obviously.
11 THE WITNESS: I don't know.
12 THE COURT: Well, it would seem as if you knew
13 something was false and you upbraided her for it --
14 THE WITNESS: Correct.
15 THE COURT: -- as you said. That would be
16 something you knew was false, you knew she had
17 testified falsely, and you brought it to her
18 attention.
19 THE WITNESS: Yes, ma'am.
20 THE COURT: If she is saying she -- she
21 testified about something falsely and you helped her
22 but you didn't know it was false, these couldn't be
23 the same two things, the same thing.
24 THE WITNESS: Correct.
25 THE COURT: Right?
73
1 THE WITNESS: Correct.
2 THE COURT: All right. Now, as I recall in the
3 course of the testimony -- and I could be wrong, I
4 have heard so much, it's getting on to that magic
5 hour -- my recollection of what Ms. Brooks testified
6 in this hearing that she testified falsely about was
7 this agreement, the agreement -- I think we are now
8 calling it a secret agreement.
9 MR. DANDAR: We are calling it a secret
10 agreement.
11 THE COURT: But because we have an agreement,
12 we have a couple things we are talking about. It's
13 that part of the issue in this case as to whether or
14 not there was ever an agreement between Mr. Minton
15 and the estate of Lisa McPherson that the bulk of,
16 substantial portion, vast amount, nobody knows
17 exactly, would be given to an anti-cult organization
18 which could have been FACTNet, could have been LMT
19 or could have been some other one, that is the basic
20 agreement. Like I said -- I have said, there is no
21 agreement. But that is what we're calling the
22 secret agreement.
23 THE WITNESS: Yes, ma'am.
24 THE COURT: Now, what I recall is that
25 Ms. Brooks said she testified falsely about it in
74
1 her deposition. So I'm going to assume that she
2 said in her deposition it didn't exist because she
3 now says it did exist.
4 THE WITNESS: Well, you know, by application of
5 reason, she would have had to have said it didn't
6 exist because my understanding was that it didn't
7 exist.
8 THE COURT: So it didn't exist. So your
9 understanding was it didn't exist?
10 THE WITNESS: Correct.
11 THE COURT: She said it didn't exist.
12 THE WITNESS: I believe she said it didn't
13 exist.
14 THE COURT: Which would comport with what she
15 told you just recently, is that you had helped her
16 to answer the question but you didn't know it was
17 false.
18 THE WITNESS: Correct.
19 THE COURT: And she didn't mean to imply to us
20 here that you had coached her to testify
21 untruthfully.
22 THE WITNESS: Correct.
23 THE COURT: So that all kind of fits, doesn't
24 it?
25 MR. DANDAR: That is it. That is it. All
75
1 right.
2 THE COURT: However, when you read this, "Prior
3 to my deposition, he," this being you "-- had
4 coached me regarding how to falsely answer questions
5 about the source of the LMT funds," that is not --
6 THE WITNESS: One doesn't get warm fuzzies on
7 reading it, your Honor.
8 THE COURT: Well, you really cannot read that
9 the way that Ms. Brooks would like for you to
10 understand she meant it.
11 THE WITNESS: Well, I -- I prefer to take
12 people at their best.
13 THE COURT: Well, let me ask you this. And if
14 you will just give me a yes or no, is this true or
15 false? "Prior to my deposition, he," this is you,
16 the first lines -- line "-- John Merrett represented
17 me at this deposition and knew I was testifying
18 falsely."
19 "Prior to my deposition --" this is the line.
20 THE WITNESS: Yes, ma'am.
21 THE COURT: "-- he had coached me regarding how
22 to falsely answer questions about the source of LMT
23 funds."
24 Is that true, or false?
25 THE WITNESS: That is false as I understand the
76
1 rules of English grammar.
2 THE COURT: All right. Let's go to the next
3 line.
4 MR. DANDAR: Read the next one, please.
5 THE WITNESS: "Mr. Merrett had also advised me
6 to leave unedited video footage from the LMT in the
7 hallway and it would be taken care of."
8 I gave those instructions to Mark Bunker. I
9 don't know whether Ms. Brooks was present when I
10 gave those instructions, but they were not directed
11 to Ms. Brooks.
12 BY MR. DANDAR:
13 Q Why did you give those instructions to Mark
14 Bunker?
15 A Because Mark Bunker, who is another person I
16 represented at various times through this litigation --
17 MR. DANDAR: Can you turn the mike on? I'm
18 having a hard time. I don't know why.
19 A Mark Bunker, who is another person affiliated with
20 the LMT whom I have represented during the course of these
21 proceedings, is a videographer.
22 He had a substantial collection of videotapes,
23 some of which were at his house and some of which were
24 stored on the premises of the LMT. He was concerned that
25 there would be a bogus raid of some sort on his house and/or
77
1 the LMT premises.
2 Those tapes were represented to me, by both
3 Ms. Brooks and Mr. Bunker, to be Mr. Bunker's property. And
4 Mr. Bunker expressed to me concern, not only because they
5 were his property, but because he regarded them as being
6 covered, to one degree or another, by journalistic
7 privilege, that he did not want them falling into anybody
8 else's hands and being reviewed by anybody.
9 At that point they were not under any subpoena or
10 any kind of court order.
11 BY MR. DANDAR:
12 Q So what you told Mr. Bunker to put out in the
13 hallway of the LMT was his property, not the property of the
14 LMT?
15 A That is correct.
16 THE COURT: Were you aware that some judge had
17 entered an order -- what -- where is this order in
18 question?
19 MR. MOXON: There are several orders, your
20 Honor. There is an order in September of 2001, one
21 in August of 2001.
22 THE COURT: There is a specific order, I don't
23 know, I don't know -- it probably --
24 MR. MOXON: September 5, 2001.
25 THE COURT: Well, let me see it. When did you
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1 have this conversation with Mr. Bunker?
2 THE WITNESS: I don't know, Judge. It was
3 sometime -- I think it was before Judge Beach came
4 into the picture, I believe. I think it was
5 probably at the time -- you may have heard testimony
6 about the LMT staff receiving a letter from
7 Mr. Rosen, who represents Scientology, making
8 various threats about alleged copyright
9 infringement.
10 THE COURT: I haven't heard about Mr. Rosen's
11 letter about that yet.
12 THE WITNESS: Well --
13 MR. DANDAR: You did.
14 THE COURT: I did? I'm sorry, I don't
15 remember. I'm sorry.
16 THE WITNESS: There was a letter to that
17 effect. And the way it was explained to me in
18 response to that, the staff gathered up all copies,
19 except archival copies, of anything as to which
20 Scientology claimed a copyright and shredded them,
21 retaining archival copies. It would have been about
22 that time because I think that is what caused
23 Mr. Bunker to be concerned that he was not going to
24 have the opportunity to try to defend the property
25 through the court but, rather, it would somehow end
79
1 up, in the course of a raid of one sort or another,
2 in Scientology's hand, without his having an
3 opportunity to be heard on whose or what they were.
4 So I think that was the triggering event.
5 THE COURT: Okay. Just a second here.
6 Is the -- do you all have a copy of that back
7 there as I'm looking at it?
8 MR. WEINBERG: I don't think so.
9 MR. MOXON: Excuse me?
10 THE COURT: Do you have a copy of it, or was
11 this your copy you handed to me?
12 MR. MOXON: Of what?
13 THE COURT: Of this (indicating).
14 MR. MOXON: Yes.
15 THE COURT: I want to be sure that -- is this
16 Paragraph 4 that: "The Lisa McPherson Trust shall
17 produce all videos in its possession or control of
18 witnesses in this case of September 7, 2001, whether
19 or not they are on the website, in computer or any
20 other form," is that the --
21 MR. DANDAR: That is the one order.
22 MR. MOXON: That is one order. There is a
23 later one on October 17 --
24 THE COURT: I don't know about all these
25 videos. Is this the one the judge signed which
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1 would have produced these videos he's now talking
2 about?
3 MR. WEINBERG: Yes.
4 MR. MOXON: Well, there actually were five
5 different orders. I can walk through them all.
6 THE COURT: No, I just want to know, are we
7 talking about the same videos?
8 MR. MOXON: Yes.
9 THE WITNESS: There is only one bunch of
10 videos.
11 THE COURT: Okay. Did you know that there was
12 an order in place at the time, whatever conversation
13 you had with Mr. Bunker, we'll get into what it was,
14 signed by the judge, that said: "The Lisa McPherson
15 Trust shall produce all videos in its possession or
16 control of witnesses in this case on any date,
17 whether they are on the website, in computers or in
18 any other form"?
19 When you gave this instruction to Mark Bunker,
20 were you aware that