Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida
Pinellas (727)821?3320 Hillsborough (813)224?9500
Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224?9500
1342
1 IN THE CIRCUIT COURT FOR PINELLAS COUNTY, FLORIDA
CASE NO. 00?5682?CI?11
2
3
4
DELL LIEBREICH, as Personal
5 Representative of the ESTATE OF
LISA McPHERSON,
6
7 Plaintiff,
8 vs. VOLUME 11
9 CHURCH OF SCIENTOLOGY FLAG
SERVICE ORGANIZATION, JANIS
10 JOHNSON, ALAIN KARTUZINSKI
and DAVID HOUGHTON, D.D.S.,
11
Defendants.
12
_______________________________________/
13
14
15 PROCEEDINGS: Defendants' Omnibus Motion for
Terminating Sanctions and Other Relief.
16
CONTENTS: Testimony of ROBERT MINTON.
17
DATE: May 28, 2002. Afternoon Session.
18
PLACE: Courtroom B, Judicial Building
19 St. Petersburg, Florida.
20 BEFORE: Honorable Susan F. Schaeffer,
Circuit Judge.
21
REPORTED BY: Lynne J. Ide, RMR.
22 Deputy Official Court Reporter,
Sixth Judicial Circuit of Florida.
23
24
25
1343
1 APPEARANCES:
2
MR. KENNAN G. DANDAR
3 DANDAR & DANDAR
5340 West Kennedy Blvd., Suite 201
4 Tampa, FL 33602
Attorney for Plaintiff.
5
6 MR. LUKE CHARLES LIROT
LUKE CHARLES LIROT, PA
7 112 N East Street, Street, Suite B
Tampa, FL 33602?4108
8 Attorney for Plaintiff
9
MR. KENDRICK MOXON
10 MOXON & KOBRIN
1100 Cleveland Street, Suite 900
11 Clearwater, FL 33755
Attorney for Church of Scientology Flag Service
12 Organization.
13
MR. LEE FUGATE and
14 MR. MORRIS WEINBERG, JR. and
ZUCKERMAN, SPAEDER
15 101 E. Kennedy Blvd, Suite 1200
Tampa, FL 33602?5147
16 Attorneys for Church of Scientology Flag Service
Organization.
17
18 MR. ERIC M. LIEBERMAN
RABINOWITZ, BOUDIN, STANDARD
19 740 Broadway at Astor Place
New York, NY 10003?9518
20 Attorney for Church of Scientology Flag Service
Organization.
21
22 MR. THOMAS H. MCGOWAN
MCGOWAN & SUAREZ, LLP
23 150 2nd Avenue North, Suite 870
St. Petersburg, FL 33701?3381
24 Attorney for Stacy Brooks.
25
1344
1 APPEARANCES: (Continued)
2
MR. BRUCE HOWIE
3 5720 Central Avenue
St. Petersburg, Florida.
4 Attorney for Robert Minton.
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
1345
1 THE COURT: Trying to keep you all abreast ?? I
2 had a three?day non?jury trial cancel for next week
3 on Tuesday, Wednesday and Thursday. So I am set ??
4 my secretary tells me they don't yet have senior
5 judge coverage for all those days so I'm lucky
6 because Tuesday, Wednesday and Thursday doesn't
7 matter, that is gone, so this is on. I may or may
8 not be covered for Friday, so if I can't get
9 coverage, we'll just do Tuesday, Wednesday and
10 Thursday.
11 MR. WEINBERG: Okay.
12 THE COURT: But we're on for Tuesday, Wednesday
13 and Thursday. Okay?
14 Continue on.
15 MR. DANDAR: All right. I'm just marking some
16 more exhibits. Just what you want to hear.
17 MR. LIEBERMAN: Your Honor, that little packet
18 that I told you we would put together?
19 THE COURT: Yes.
20 MR. LIEBERMAN: We're still putting it
21 together, the technology of binding it well. We'll
22 either get it to you later this afternoon or first
23 thing in the morning.
24 THE COURT: That is fine. That is fine.
25 MR. LIEBERMAN: Probably first thing tomorrow
1346
1 morning, given the way things usually work.
2 THE COURT: That will be fine. Thank you.
3 MR. DANDAR: I'm going to ask my co?counsel to
4 come here and assist the clerk in marking these
5 other exhibits while I question Mr. Minton.
6 Mr. Lirot.
7 THE COURT: I don't think he heard you.
8 MR. DANDAR: No, I don't think he did.
9 MR. LIROT: I'm sorry, I ??
10 MR. DANDAR: Stand up and get over here.
11 MR. FUGATE: So I'm clear on the record, you
12 are talking about now we're going June 4, Tuesday;
13 June 5, Wednesday; Thursday, June 6; and if you get
14 coverage Friday, June 7?
15 THE COURT: Yes.
16 MR. FUGATE: All right.
17 THE COURT: And you can assume that I'm going
18 to get covered. But if I don't, I'm sure nobody
19 will care if I give you?all Friday off.
20 MR. LIEBERMAN: We would love a three?day
21 weekend.
22 THE COURT: I'm sure. I wouldn't mind myself,
23 but I have work that I have to do. Not that you?all
24 don't.
25 Okay, Mr. Dandar.
1347
1 MR. DANDAR: Judge, I substituted a new 57 for
2 the old 57, which I believe will be complete. And
3 if Mr. Minton has the old 57 ??
4 THE COURT: Oh, the one that he said wasn't
5 complete, he didn't think?
6 MR. DANDAR: Right.
7 THE COURT: Okay.
8 MR. DANDAR: Maybe I already took it away.
9 THE WITNESS: This is it.
10 BY MR. DANDAR:
11 Q Take a look at the new one.
12 MR. DANDAR: I will hand that to the Court.
13 THE COURT: Thank you.
14 BY MR. DANDAR:
15 Q Do you recognize that as your posting that you
16 authored in November 4 of '99?
17 A Yes.
18 Q And it talks about what the Lisa McPherson Trust
19 is all about. Are the statements in there about what the ??
20 why the Lisa McPherson Trust was established, correct?
21 A Excuse me?
22 Q The statement in this posting talks about why the
23 Lisa McPherson Trust was established. Is that correct?
24 THE COURT: Maybe ?? that is pretty long. Why
25 don't you show us where you are talking about.
1348
1 MR. DANDAR: Okay.
2 A Well, again, the first three paragraphs came out
3 of that section on the website. After that, it's my
4 comments.
5 BY MR. DANDAR:
6 Q And was that website that you incorporated in this
7 posting ?? were those truthful statements ??
8 A Mmm ??
9 Q ?? the first three paragraphs?
10 A Well, they were Stacy Brooks' statements. But if
11 you want me to tell you whether I think she was truthful in
12 them ??
13 Q Well, did you adopt them as your own in this
14 posting?
15 A Well, let me read them. You know, I think I just
16 pasted it off of the website. You know, I wouldn't disagree
17 at the time with any of those statements.
18 MR. DANDAR: Okay, I would like to move that
19 into evidence.
20 THE COURT: Any objection?
21 MR. WEINBERG: No.
22 THE COURT: It will be received.
23 BY MR. DANDAR:
24 Q Now, Mr. Minton, are you aware that all of your
25 statements and declarations that were ?? used to be on the
1349
1 Lisa McPherson Trust website have now been removed?
2 A No. I'm not aware of that.
3 Q Are you aware that all of the Stacy Brooks
4 declarations that were up on the Lisa McPherson Trust
5 website have all been removed?
6 A I'm not aware of that.
7 Q If you were trying to get out of the ?? as you
8 call it ?? the Scientology litigation business, can you tell
9 me why you posted snippets of the movie The Profit on the
10 Lisa McPherson website?
11 A What does that have to do with the Scientology
12 litigation business? I don't find a connection there.
13 Q Well, didn't you say that that movie had something
14 to do with a parody of Scientology?
15 A Yes.
16 Q And did you post it up on the website, snippets?
17 A I did. I did.
18 Q And when was the last time that you are aware of
19 that a snippet of the movie The Profit was on the website?
20 A Mmm, the date of the letter that I sent to you.
21 Q Sent me a letter?
22 A Well, when Patricia Greenway filed a DMCA notice,
23 Digital Millennium Copyright Act notice against Pacer.com,
24 she sent copies of her post to you, to Mr. Lirot, to
25 Pacer.com, to Mark Bunker.
1350
1 And I, in turn, responded to that and sent copies
2 of the letter that I had given to Mark Bunker. And so
3 whatever the date of that letter was is the date that I last
4 knew that it was up there.
5 Q Are you saying you sent me a copy of the E?Mail
6 that you responded to?
7 A Not only did I do that, I sent you a copy of ??
8 PDF copy of ?? an Adobe Acrobat copy of the letter that I
9 gave to Mark Bunker, authorizing him to have those clips on
10 the website.
11 Q Okay. And one note before we get back to where we
12 left off before lunch. Did you retain an attorney to
13 represent your interests in seeking repayment from
14 Mr. Leipold in California?
15 A I did.
16 Q What is the attorney's name?
17 A Gary Soter.
18 Q How do you spell that?
19 A S?O?T?E?R.
20 Q And is he an attorney in California?
21 A He is.
22 Q And is he an attorney who either currently or in
23 the past has represented the interests of the Church of
24 Scientology?
25 A He has told me that he has never represented the
1351
1 Church of Scientology. We discussed potential conflicts of
2 interest in our first conversation.
3 Q Okay.
4 THE COURT: That was the money paid ?? excuse
5 me ?? the money you paid to Mr. Leipold?
6 THE WITNESS: Well, the principal ?? the
7 principal reason that I retained him was in
8 connection with the Wollersheim matter. But I also
9 asked him to look into the Leipold matter.
10 THE COURT: Okay.
11 BY MR. DANDAR:
12 Q Is Mr. Leipold delinquent on his loan agreement to
13 you?
14 A He is.
15 Q How long has he been delinquent?
16 A I'm not certain.
17 Q All right.
18 A Several months. The last payment, I think, was
19 sometime in late 2001.
20 Q When you went to any of the meetings that you had
21 commencing March 28th with the Church of Scientology, did
22 you discuss with anyone at any of the meetings why they
23 wanted to depose your wife, Mrs. Minton?
24 A Mmm, no, I didn't.
25 Q Did your wife know that the Church of Scientology
1352
1 wanted to depose her?
2 A I told her.
3 Q When?
4 A Sometime shortly after you informed me.
5 Q Okay. The motion for commission is dated April 5,
6 2002, the day that you appeared before Judge Schaeffer on
7 the motion hearing for contempt. Did you tell her that day?
8 A I'm sure I told her very shortly after I heard
9 about it.
10 Q All right. Do you have Plaintiff's Exhibit 65 up
11 there, Mr. Minton?
12 THE COURT: I'm not sure if any of us has a 65.
13 Maybe we do.
14 MR. DANDAR: Well, I have my copies but I
15 only ?? here it is. Never mind.
16 A No, I don't.
17 BY MR. DANDAR:
18 Q Okay, let me show you Plaintiff's Exhibit 65.
19 THE COURT: Well, maybe we did.
20 MR. WEINBERG: I don't think we had that.
21 MR. DANDAR: Here it is.
22 THE COURT: Okay. Thank you. I didn't get one
23 this big this morning ?? this thick, I should say.
24 BY MR. DANDAR:
25 Q That is a 14?page document. Is that authored by
1353
1 you, Mr. Minton?
2 MR. WEINBERG: Are you going to ?? your Honor,
3 I ask he be given an opportunity to look through
4 this.
5 THE COURT: Okay. What does it mean up here
6 when it says: "Date 1999/10/01"?
7 MR. DANDAR: October 1st.
8 THE COURT: Who ?? is that a foreign way to
9 post dates?
10 MR. DANDAR: That is an Internet way to post
11 dates.
12 THE COURT: Is that the way you do it on the
13 Internet? Okay.
14 MR. WEINBERG: But it is done in Europe that
15 way.
16 THE COURT: Okay.
17 MR. DANDAR: They also drive on the wrong side
18 of the road.
19 MR. WEINBERG: Only some places in Europe.
20 A I think it's because everything is geared toward
21 Greenwich mean time. That would be the dating system.
22 THE COURT: Okay.
23 A That would appear to be a ?? remarks I made at a
24 Cult Info Conference in 1999.
25
1354
1 BY MR. DANDAR:
2 Q Entitled "The Warnings on the Evils of
3 Scientology"?
4 A Right.
5 Q Did you say anything on that conference contained
6 in this 14?page document that was posted on
7 alt.religion.scientology that you knew to be false?
8 A I didn't write everything in there. So unless I
9 read all 15 pages, I would have to withhold the final
10 opinion on that. But I don't think there was anything false
11 in there.
12 Q You do remember speaking at the conference in
13 February?
14 A I do.
15 Q You certainly wouldn't have gotten up in front of
16 a conference of people and told them any untruths, would
17 you?
18 A I would hope not.
19 MR. DANDAR: Okay. I move that into evidence.
20 THE COURT: Any objection?
21 MR. WEINBERG: Well, I ?? I think I might. I
22 haven't read it. I would like an opportunity to
23 read it before I tell you whether I object or not.
24 But what is the purpose of putting this in?
25 MR. DANDAR: Relevance.
1355
1 THE COURT: Well, the purpose of anything, it
2 seems to me, is ?? it shows the ?? the obvious bias,
3 strong feelings, against ?? all of the things that
4 you might want to say ?? of Mr. Minton, I think
5 reflect on whether or not he's telling the truth on
6 all of the things he's testifying about.
7 MR. WEINBERG: But the way the question was
8 asked, was there anything you said untrue. And
9 looking at page after page, most of this stuff is
10 stuff he wouldn't know anyway.
11 The question is at the time did he believe what
12 he said, that is a different sort of question. But,
13 I mean, if this is being offered for the truth of
14 the matters asserted in here, I would object.
15 THE COURT: Oh, it is not.
16 MR. WEINBERG: Okay.
17 THE COURT: I mean, there is very little being
18 offered for the truth of the matter asserted.
19 MR. DANDAR: It's whether or not he believed
20 what he was saying was true.
21 THE COURT: Exactly. In other words, whether
22 he felt this way at the time, whether this is ?? he
23 felt was true and what he believed and what he
24 actually got up and said to some group and then
25 posted on the Internet.
1356
1 MR. WEINBERG: My only point is if it is
2 offered for that reason ?? I mean, you have got my
3 objection. If you ?? and the main reason I'm
4 objecting is I haven't read the document because we
5 couldn't go through 14 pages that quickly.
6 THE COURT: I tell you what, I'll take it home,
7 you take it home, I'll let it in, for the same
8 reason ?? these are postings ?? these are
9 Mr. Minton's postings. He put them on the Internet.
10 We let a lot of Ms. Brooks' affidavits in.
11 If there is anything in here that you ?? was
12 false and you knew it was false when you posted it,
13 when you have a chance to review it tonight, if you
14 will, come back and tell us tomorrow it is false.
15 THE WITNESS: Okay.
16 THE COURT: If it is something you said, you
17 knew it was false when you said it, then you
18 probably ought to tell us about it. That would have
19 some bearing, also.
20 MR. DANDAR: Judge, I'm going to hand him
21 Plaintiff's Exhibit 68 for the same reason, which is
22 a Cult Info speech of April 19, 1998, to see if he
23 can identify that document.
24 THE WITNESS: Your Honor, I just ask that if I
25 could have a copy of it that is not the Court's
1357
1 record.
2 MR. DANDAR: Yes, let me do that.
3 THE COURT: Oh, yes. Absolutely.
4 MR. DANDAR: I tell you what, here is 68 that
5 is not the Court's record. Let me give this back to
6 the clerk, which is 68, then let me give you the
7 other one.
8 THE COURT: 65, that is awfully long. He can
9 take that home with him. As I said, if you are not
10 done today ?? probably not ?? if you come back
11 tomorrow, if there is anything in there you knew was
12 false and you posted it anyway ?? said it anyway,
13 then you can tell us about that.
14 THE WITNESS: All right, your Honor.
15 THE COURT: If these were things you believed
16 at the time, then you don't ?? you don't have to
17 correct anything. I'm not suggesting, though,
18 Mr. Weinberg, that this is true.
19 MR. WEINBERG: I understand. I just wanted to
20 make that clear on the record.
21 THE COURT: I mean, I have read a lot of things
22 that I have received in here that, if I thought they
23 were true, we could all be very ?? a lot of this
24 stuff is the work of angry bigoted folks who make
25 things sound just as bad as they can, probably with
1358
1 very little knowledge, some of them.
2 MR. WEINBERG: Right.
3 THE COURT: Some may have some knowledge. But,
4 in any event, I don't assume this stuff is true.
5 And when I ask about it, it's not that I'm assuming
6 it's true. It's that I'm assuming they believed it,
7 felt this way at this time.
8 BY MR. DANDAR:
9 Q Now, in Exhibit 68, is that also another posting
10 that you made, which was your speech to the Cult Info
11 conference in 1998?
12 A Yes. It's a different organization but, yeah.
13 Q Is it not the same organization?
14 A Well, the previous exhibit, I guess that is 67, is
15 the Leo J. Ryan Educational Foundation, which its short name
16 is Cult Info.
17 This is called Cult Information Service of New
18 York and New Jersey.
19 Q So is that a posting that you made?
20 A It is.
21 Q And the same with the other one, do you need time
22 to look over that to make sure it's accurate and it is the
23 speech you gave?
24 A Well, if it's an accurate representation of the
25 posting, I remember ?? you know, I wrote all of the speech.
1359
1 And, you know, at the time I would have believed that to be
2 true.
3 Q Okay. All right.
4 THE COURT: Nevertheless, we will still give
5 you the opportunity to look through it and see
6 whether you think it is accurate, or if you feel,
7 for some reason, it is not accurate, you can bring
8 that to our attention.
9 THE WITNESS: Okay, your Honor.
10 MR. WEINBERG: Just so the record is clear, the
11 speech is April of '98 but the post is July of 2001,
12 just so the record is clear.
13 THE COURT: Okay. Which one is that? Is
14 that ??
15 MR. WEINBERG: That is the last one he gave
16 you, 68. It has a July of 2001 date on it.
17 THE COURT: Yes.
18 MR. WEINBERG: But I guess the speech is 1998.
19 THE COURT: That's right, I see it up at the
20 top.
21 BY MR. DANDAR:
22 Q Now, Mr. Minton, were you sitting in court when a
23 video was played of people of the Lisa McPherson Trust being
24 videotaped by the surveillance cameras on the building of
25 the Church of Scientology as they were taking boxes out ??
1360
1 boxes out of the Lisa McPherson Trust, either to their cars
2 or to a Federal Express truck?
3 A I wasn't here for that.
4 Q Okay. Do you recall that event where people were
5 moving boxes?
6 A I wasn't there for it.
7 Q Do you know what was in those boxes?
8 A Mmm, I don't. Maybe you could help me with the
9 dates and things like that. I might be able to give you
10 some idea.
11 Q I don't remember the dates, either.
12 At any time did you ever order destruction of
13 records that were under court order to be produced by the
14 Lisa McPherson Trust?
15 A I don't think so.
16 Q Did the Lisa McPherson ??
17 A I ?? I ordered, you know, the hard drives to be
18 removed and sent to me in New Hampshire.
19 Q Why?
20 A Well, according to John Merrett, there wasn't an
21 order saying they had to be there, and he felt that they
22 were going to be subject to being frozen in the premises.
23 Q And what did those hard drives contain?
24 A I have never looked at any of the hard drives, so
25 I don't know.
1361
1 Q All right. Did you ??
2 THE COURT: Was it a privacy issue? In other
3 words ??
4 THE WITNESS: It was a privacy issue.
5 THE COURT: You felt there were things on there
6 that really shouldn't be out of the hands of LMT,
7 and you were trying to keep it from getting into the
8 public ??
9 THE WITNESS: Domain, yes.
10 THE COURT: ?? domain?
11 THE WITNESS: But, you know, each of the
12 computers would have had people's personal material,
13 you know, E?Mails and things like that. You know,
14 depending on their vigilance in destroying E?Mails,
15 which was supposed to be done, but some people never
16 did. I think Stacy Brooks was the worst offender in
17 terms of deleting her E?Mail promptly. And so Grady
18 Ward and I used to have to go in and get her to do
19 it.
20 But, Mmm, you know, it was a privacy issue.
21 And Mr. Merrett said there is absolutely no reason
22 that we can't, up until the minute that this order
23 is signed, take those out.
24 And, you know, he speculated, about two weeks
25 before this order ultimately did get signed, that ??
1362
1 that this might happen. And he said, you know, we
2 should get those out of there. So ??
3 MR. FUGATE: Could we have a date, Judge, just
4 so we know what orders were in place?
5 THE COURT: I'm not sure he knows, himself.
6 THE WITNESS: No.
7 THE COURT: And I'm not sure I do, either.
8 That is part of the problem is those orders kept
9 coming and coming, because it seemed like nobody was
10 paying any attention to them, so the Church would go
11 in and get the Judge to say, "Well, try again." So
12 I don't know, myself, to be honest.
13 Do you, Mr. Minton, know?
14 THE WITNESS: I don't know the dates, your
15 Honor.
16 THE COURT: In fact, I asked somebody to get me
17 a set of those orders.
18 MR. FUGATE: Judge, you did. And I'm working
19 on the time line that will place all this ??
20 THE COURT: Okay.
21 MR. FUGATE: ?? in a sequence. But there is a
22 bunch ??
23 THE COURT: Yes, there are.
24 MR. FUGATE: ?? so it will take a little bit.
25 But I'll have that either this afternoon or tomorrow
1363
1 morning for you.
2 THE COURT: Mr. Minton, was your information ??
3 or was your communication regarding either the
4 destruction of records or the removal of hard drives
5 or whatever was being done at LMT ?? was your
6 direction on that legally from Mr. Merrett?
7 THE WITNESS: He ?? with respect to the hard
8 drives, because that one I was directly involved in,
9 yes, it came from John Merrett.
10 He gave other instructions to other people that
11 related to other items.
12 THE COURT: You were not getting your
13 direction ?? or as far as you know, they were not
14 getting their direction on these things from
15 Mr. Dandar, is that true?
16 THE WITNESS: No. No, they weren't, not with
17 respect to the hard drives.
18 THE COURT: How about whatever else ?? I mean,
19 we did see a whole lot of folks toting out a whole
20 lot of boxes. Nobody knows what was in them.
21 THE WITNESS: Well, your Honor, for example, I
22 don't know what the time frame here is, but I know
23 there were a bunch of boxes that I asked people to
24 send. And those were ?? in our library, we had a
25 lot of collectible items, you know, original
1364
1 magazines and publications by L. Ron Hubbard, you
2 know, photographs of L. Ron Hubbard, you know,
3 autographed, and, you know, original E?meters, the
4 early E?meter, the old Lee Matheson E?meter or
5 something of that nature, and a bunch of other
6 E?meters. And these were considered collectible
7 items. I mean, they weren't worth anything other
8 than their collector's value.
9 And so I had asked Jeff Jacobsen to ?? to take
10 all those boxes and send them up to me in New
11 Hampshire, you know. Depending what happened ?? I
12 didn't know what was going to happen with regard to
13 the library material, which subsequently got
14 inspected and, you know, it was okay to be released
15 and it was released, but those collectible items I
16 didn't figure could be anything other than potential
17 fodder for all kinds of arguments between LMT and
18 Scientology about ??
19 THE COURT: Who they belonged to and whether
20 you ?? there were copyright violations or things
21 like that?
22 THE WITNESS: Well, no, these were all original
23 materials. So it wasn't a question of copyright
24 violation. These were not part of any ?? shredded
25 in that massive copyright shredding exercise.
1365
1 These were things that had some monetary value
2 to them. And, you know, I didn't think it was
3 either safe or prudent to keep them there.
4 THE COURT: So ?? so some of the things that we
5 saw carried out most likely were people putting
6 things in cars or what have you so they could return
7 them to you at your request?
8 THE WITNESS: Well, no, because anything that
9 was sent to me was sent by Fed Ex. And, you know,
10 in total, it couldn't have been more than like 15
11 boxes.
12 THE COURT: Well, that is a lot of boxes.
13 We ?? I don't know how many boxes we saw carried
14 out. But there were many boxes. I mean ??
15 THE WITNESS: Yeah.
16 THE COURT: ?? I don't know how many boxes were
17 carried out, 20, 30.
18 MR. DANDAR: Probably that many.
19 THE COURT: I don't know. But some of them
20 could have been people taking boxes to Fed Ex to
21 ship to you, is that what you are saying?
22 THE WITNESS: For that volume of boxes, I think
23 they would have just had the Fed Ex truck come by.
24 THE COURT: To pick them up?
25 THE WITNESS: Yes, but I'm not sure, your
1366
1 Honor. I don't know how they did it. I wasn't
2 there.
3 BY MR. DANDAR:
4 Q But that was ?? the library was a pretty big
5 library that LMT had acquired, correct?
6 A Well, I had acquired it.
7 Q You personally acquired it, correct?
8 A Yes.
9 Q Okay. And you personally weren't subject to any
10 order of the Court, is that right?
11 A Mmm, I think I was subject to a bunch of court
12 orders.
13 Q Okay. But ??
14 A But not for that type of material, for sure.
15 Q Right. The bottom line is did you participate in
16 removal or destruction of anything from the LMT that was
17 subject to a court order?
18 A The ?? I don't think so.
19 Q All right.
20 A The only thing that I was very keen on making sure
21 happened was that the records of the people who had come to
22 the LMT were taken out of the LMT.
23 Q The identity, their problems, whatever they said?
24 A Yeah, whatever their ?? whatever they came to talk
25 to us about that was protected, should be protected.
1367
1 Q And what form of media was that recorded onto?
2 A Well, some of it was, you know, hard copies. And
3 that got shredded. And all of the documents got reduced to
4 digital form.
5 Q CDs?
6 A They eventually ended up on CDs.
7 Q And where are those CDs today?
8 A Mmm, they're in Europe.
9 Q Are they with anyone who has any type of
10 relationship with the Church of Scientology?
11 A Mmm, absolutely not.
12 Q Are you protecting those documents so that they do
13 not get in the hands of the Church of Scientology?
14 A Well, you know, what happened, you know, learning
15 from past experience, the Church of Scientology purchased
16 the assets of the Cult Awareness Network in bankruptcy. And
17 among the assets were the records of people who had gone to
18 the Cult Awareness Network for help.
19 And, you know, my concern was that that didn't
20 happen in the case of the people who had come to the LMT for
21 help.
22 Q So did you have any discussions with anyone
23 representing the Church of Scientology, attorney or
24 otherwise, this year where this was discussed, the
25 information that people who came to the LMT for help?
1368
1 A Absolutely no discussions of that sort.
2 Q And no promise has been made to turn over this
3 material to anyone that is connected to or related to the
4 Church of Scientology, is that right?
5 A Well, there is no promise been made yet.
6 Q Oh, so ??
7 A Because ?? no, and there won't be any promise made
8 that that would be turned over.
9 Q Because?
10 A But ?? but the point of the matter is, is that
11 we're not into discussing any of those kind of things. You
12 know, there are just no discussions going along outside of
13 this area of setting the record straight. That is it.
14 Q The topic that we already discussed before lunch
15 about Mr. Rosen on March 28th was the $34,925,000 you caused
16 Scientology to spend, according to Mr. Rosen.
17 What was the next ??
18 A Well, they didn't say, you know, that "you caused
19 Scientology to spend." This is the ?? this is the amount
20 that we've spent on litigation that you're involved in.
21 Q Okay.
22 A And some of that was defined as being pre my
23 involvement. Some was defined as post my involvement.
24 Q Was that said by Mr. Rosen in a rather amicable,
25 friendly fashion? Or was it stated to you in a rather stern
1369
1 fashion?
2 A Mmm, I think you have been in deposition with
3 Mr. Rosen. Mr. Rosen is fairly brusk at the best of times.
4 Q Okay. And what was the next topic of
5 conversation?
6 A Mmm ??
7 Q What I'm saying is after he told you and gave you
8 this list with the monetary values, and you added it up to
9 be $34,925,000, what was the point of why he was saying that
10 to you?
11 A He didn't make a point as to why he was saying it.
12 He was just laying it out.
13 Q Okay. Then what was that followed with?
14 A Mmm, that when we ?? when we did reach any
15 settlement, that there were a number of things that would
16 have to be done or issues of concern to them that would have
17 to be dealt with, you know, in the process of settling.
18 One had to do with certain domain names that we
19 owned ?? or that I owned, you know, that had "Scientology"
20 in them.
21 One had to do with, you know, mutual releases.
22 You know, off the top of my head, that is all that
23 I remember.
24 Q Domain names that had "Scientology" in them and
25 mutual releases? Did I miss any?
1370
1 A Those are the two that I said I remember.
2 Q Dandarlaw.com, was that one of the domain names?
3 A That doesn't have "Scientology" in it and it
4 wasn't mentioned.
5 Q Okay.
6 A I don't think they care about Dandarlaw.com.
7 Q I would hope not.
8 Wait a minute. You come into the meeting the
9 first time with Mr. Rosen, he goes over this list of cases
10 for 30 million, 34 million?plus, then he says ?? the next
11 topic is ??
12 A No, Mr. Rosen only addressed litigation matters.
13 Everything else was addressed by Mr. Rinder.
14 Q Okay. So when Mr. Rinder ?? or Mr. Rosen
15 mentioned the litigation cases that you are involved in and
16 the amounts, didn't he follow that through with ?? give you
17 the reason why he was mentioning that, what had to be done
18 about those litigation matters?
19 A As much as he probably wanted to, Mr. Rinder took
20 charge of the conversation after that part of it.
21 Q All right. And Mr. Rinder said, "As part of this
22 ongoing global settlement, we have to talk about the domain
23 names that contain the word 'Scientology' and mutual
24 releases"?
25 A Yes. And, I mean, the key thing ?? you know,
1371
1 there were like seven or eight broad categories that they
2 mentioned of ?? areas of concern that ?? that this eventual
3 settlement agreement would deal with.
4 Q Did someone have a list that they were reading
5 from?
6 A No.
7 Q Just off the top of their head, they had these
8 seven areas?
9 A Well, Mr. Rinder did.
10 Q He had no notes in front of him?
11 A Not that I can remember.
12 Q So you mentioned two out of seven.
13 A Well, three out of seven.
14 Q Domain names. Mutual releases. What else?
15 A Litigation. That was the third.
16 THE COURT: Litigation was the one from which
17 this figure came as far as ?? that was the combined
18 litigation?
19 THE WITNESS: Right.
20 A Well, some of the others, yeah, I can think of a
21 couple others here.
22 Mmm, some sort of an agreement relative to further
23 funding of any sort of litigation.
24 BY MR. DANDAR:
25 Q Any litigation? Or just ??
1372
1 A Involving Scientology. There wasn't any mention
2 of any cases. It was just any further funding.
3 Q Okay. That is four.
4 A Mmm, that's all I can remember.
5 Q So that Mr. Rinder said, "I want you to agree not
6 to provide any further funding to any litigation involving
7 the Church of Scientology"?
8 A Well, that was one of the broad general concerns.
9 Yes.
10 Q And what did he say about litigation? "I don't
11 want you to be involved in any more litigation"?
12 A Well, if I'm not going to be funding it, I'm not
13 going to be involved in it.
14 Oh, part of the mutual release thing also involved
15 agreeing not to sue Scientology. That they wouldn't sue me,
16 you know, in the future, once we entered into a settlement
17 agreement.
18 Q That is usually what a mutual release is.
19 Anything else?
20 A Not that I can remember.
21 Q Did Mr. ??
22 A Mr. Jonas took notes. I didn't.
23 Q So Mr. Jonas still has those notes?
24 A Mmm, I would have to ask him. I don't know.
25 MR. DANDAR: I would ask the Court to make
1373
1 Mr. Jonas fax it to Mr. Howie so we can see the
2 seven areas of discussion, not his comments, but
3 just the seven areas of discussion.
4 THE COURT: Mr. Howie?
5 MR. HOWIE: Your Honor, I can attempt to
6 contact Mr. Jonas to ascertain if such document
7 exists in his custody.
8 THE COURT: And without turning over notes,
9 this would simply be Mr. Minton can't remember the
10 seven areas, seven or eight areas of inquiry, if he
11 has any notes to reflect those seven or eight and
12 would share them with you, I don't think that would
13 be privileged.
14 MR. HOWIE: Thank you. I'll make that inquiry
15 as soon as I can.
16 THE COURT: Thank you.
17 BY MR. DANDAR:
18 Q Now, what domain names, Mr. Minton, are you
19 connected with in any way that has the name "Scientology" in
20 it that Mr. Rinder was concerned about?
21 A Mmm, I think there is three domains. Scientology
22 Watch. There is Reform Scientology. I don't remember how
23 many names are involved, whether it is one, two or three.
24 Mmm, he didn't ?? you know, they didn't specify any of the
25 names. But I'm just saying those are some that I know of.
1374
1 Q Why was that of any concern to them, did they say?
2 A They didn't.
3 Q What did they want you to do, close down the
4 websites?
5 A There aren't any websites. They are just domain
6 names.
7 Q Oh. Did they want you to close down any websites?
8 A They didn't ask about that.
9 Q Have they ever asked about that?
10 A No, they haven't.
11 Q Okay. What did they discuss about litigation?
12 A Mr. Rosen went through that list. That's it.
13 Q Well, what did Mr. Rinder say about litigation?
14 A Well, he didn't say anything about the litigation,
15 as far as I can remember.
16 Q Were you at this meeting with Mr. Rosen,
17 Mr. Rinder and Ms. Yingling, and your attorney, Ms. Brooks,
18 all day on March 28th?
19 A Yeah, except for lunch. We went out for lunch.
20 Q So you got there, what, 9 o'clock in the morning?
21 A Right. And I think we left around 3:30 or 4. It
22 was Passover and Mr. Rosen had to go early.
23 Q Well, was there anything agreed upon on Thursday,
24 March 28th?
25 A With regards to any of those broad areas?
1375
1 Q Yes.
2 A No.
3 Q Was there anything else discussed from 9 to 3:30
4 or 4 o'clock except for your lunch break? Was there
5 anything else discussed?
6 A Well, we discussed the areas that were of concern
7 to us ?? me, principally.
8 Q And what was that?
9 A Mmm, that, you know, basically if we were going
10 to ?? if I was going to be getting out of this, we wanted to
11 get out of it altogether, we wanted to disengage from
12 Clearwater.
13 We wanted to ?? Mmm ?? either sell or transfer our
14 building to Scientology.
15 We wanted to make sure that Jesse Prince's house
16 could be sold.
17 Mmm, you know, we wanted to make sure that the
18 Church of Scientology would not, you know, follow me, hassle
19 my family or anything like that.
20 You know, we ?? we mentioned that we had issues to
21 discuss about the movie, The Profit.
22 Q Who brought up the movie?
23 MR. WEINBERG: Your Honor, could he at least
24 finish his answer ??
25 THE COURT: Yes.
1376
1 MR. WEINBERG: ?? then let Mr. Dandar go back?
2 THE COURT: Yes, let him continue. He's now
3 telling us all of the things he wanted to discuss,
4 then you can go back and ask him ??
5 A I think I did, or Mr. Jonas did. And it was, in
6 fact, also on their list.
7 BY MR. DANDAR:
8 Q Is that one of the seven?
9 A Yes.
10 Q Seven or eight?
11 A Uh?huh.
12 Q Is that a yes?
13 A That is a yes.
14 Q Okay. What else did you want for yourself?
15 A Well, to be able to get out of this litigation
16 completely. That was the main thing. You know, to
17 completely disengage from it. To have them, you know, stop
18 the discovery issues that were going on, to try to ?? to try
19 to put off these contempt matters. You know, everything
20 that is related to this litigation down here in Florida.
21 THE COURT: Are those the two lawsuits, the one
22 here and the one in Clearwater?
23 THE WITNESS: Yes, because those are the ones
24 that we were, you know, most involved with.
25
1377
1 BY MR. DANDAR:
2 Q Did you talk about the federal case in Texas?
3 A Mmm, no. I think that was ?? I think from their
4 perspective, that was, you know, a adjunct to the Florida
5 cases.
6 Q Did they talk about you being responsible in any
7 manner for what they alleged in Texas, in adding on David
8 Miscavige, with approval of Judge Moody, that they were
9 going to supplement you as a responsible party?
10 MR. FUGATE: I object to the "with the approval
11 of Judge Moody" portion of that.
12 THE COURT: First of all, the question is so
13 long, I don't even remember what it is all about.
14 MR. DANDAR: I'm sorry, Judge. I'll rephrase
15 it.
16 THE COURT: Rephrase it.
17 BY MR. DANDAR:
18 Q Did they talk to you about making you a party
19 defendant somehow in the Texas case so they could collect
20 their judgment?
21 A No. But, you know, it never escaped me for a
22 moment that there was only one deep pocket for them to come
23 after.
24 Q That was you?
25 A Yeah.
1378
1 Q So what was paramount in your mind, how to prevent
2 Bob Minton from paying money to Scientology, or stopping the
3 contempt hearings before Judge Schaeffer and Judge Baird?
4 A Well, the most paramount thing in my mind was to
5 get out of this litigation completely. The contempt
6 hearings, the ?? in front of Judge Schaeffer and Judge
7 Baird, all of the discovery that was laid out in the course
8 of the next six weeks, you know, to completely disengage
9 from the litigation business.
10 Q What discovery was laid out for the next six weeks
11 as of March 28, 2002?
12 A Mmm, Mr. ?? or Mr. Jonas and Ms. Brooks were on
13 top of that. Not me.
14 Q Well ??
15 A But there was quite a bit.
16 Q Any discussions about conducting further discovery
17 into the source of the money to the LMT from Operation
18 Clambake and the wire transfer?
19 A No.
20 Q I mean from anonymous sources?
21 A No. There was no discussion of that.
22 Q Wasn't that a concern of yours?
23 A Mmm, yes, that was a concern.
24 Q And wouldn't you put that concern at the top of
25 your list, since you pled the Fifth Amendment in this court
1379
1 in refusing to identify the source of that money?
2 A Well, I would put at the top of my list going to
3 jail.
4 Q Because?
5 A Because of perjury.
6 Q The perjury that you're talking about, in your
7 mind, is the one where you did not disclose the UBS check to
8 me in May of 2000. Is that one of them?
9 A That's right.
10 Q And that was the only deposition you ever had in
11 this case where you answered a question about how much money
12 you gave me, is that correct?
13 A I don't believe so.
14 Q Well, Mr. Minton, your other two depositions,
15 September and October, you pled the Fifth Amendment to all
16 those questions concerning money, isn't that correct?
17 A Perhaps.
18 Q So if I'm correct ?? and it is, it is on the
19 record ?? all the questions concerning money in September
20 and October, this case and Judge Baird's case, you pled the
21 Fifth Amendment. The only time you ever answered a question
22 about how much money you paid me was in May of 2000, that
23 deposition.
24 MR. FUGATE: If that is a statement of the
25 record, it's inaccurate and I would just object to
1380
1 it on that basis.
2 THE COURT: Yes. I know he spoke about it in
3 his first deposition of 1/13/98.
4 MR. DANDAR: Oh, I'm not even counting that
5 one.
6 MR. FUGATE: There were questions by Mr. Dandar
7 in September, I think, and October ??
8 MR. WEINBERG: According to my notes,
9 September 18, 2001 in his deposition, Page 29, lines
10 5 through 8, and Page 30, lines 3 through 19, I
11 believe he was asked by ?? asked about it. And he
12 reconfirmed it was $1,050,000. That is what my
13 notes say.
14 THE WITNESS: Plus the amounts that were given
15 from that Bank of America check since then. I
16 did ?? I remember that in September, I believe.
17 THE COURT: Which one are we talking about?
18 THE WITNESS: The September 2001 deposition.
19 THE COURT: Was that about Clambake?
20 THE WITNESS: No. No. It was about ?? you
21 know, I'd previous ?? in the ?? in the previous
22 deposition of May of 2000 I testified, I think,
23 $1,050,000.
24 THE COURT: Yes.
25 THE WITNESS: Then I said to Mr. Moxon, plus
1381
1 that $250,000, that being the check from Bank of
2 America. So I was saying $1.3 million.
3 THE COURT: That was in September?
4 THE WITNESS: I believe that is the one.
5 THE COURT: Is that where the 1.3 comes in?
6 MR. WEINBERG: Right. Yes, your Honor, May of
7 2001 there was a $250,000 check which we got in
8 discovery just before this September 2001 depo. So
9 the 1.3 is 1,050,000 plus 250.
10 THE COURT: But the 250 came after the
11 May 2000?
12 MR. WEINBERG: Yes, it came in May of 2001.
13 It's in evidence.
14 MR. DANDAR: You know what, if I'm wrong, I'm
15 wrong. The depos will speak for themselves.
16 MR. WEINBERG: Well, we have a sheet that we'll
17 give Mr. Dandar and you that sort of lays ?? I mean,
18 you asked for this.
19 THE COURT: Right.
20 MR. WEINBERG: I'll hand it up. Here is a copy
21 of it. It is our work. I think it's correct.
22 THE COURT: Thank you.
23 MR. DANDAR: I'll look that up.
24 THE COURT: Thank you.
25
1382
1 BY MR. DANDAR:
2 Q What was discussed about the litigation? What did
3 Mr. Rinder or Mr. Rosen say about the litigation that you
4 were involved with?
5 A Well, Mr. Rosen just recited facts, you know,
6 case, amounts spent, amounts to be spent.
7 Q How would Mr. ?? did Mr. Rinder tell you how he
8 could foresee how much money his client was going to spend
9 in the future on each case?
10 A Well, you know, Mr. Rinder is the person inside
11 the Church of Scientology who is responsible for all
12 litigation. So I presume that he has a better idea of that
13 than anybody else in the organization.
14 Q Okay. So, I mean, we all know Mr. Rosen. You're
15 telling us that is all Mr. Rosen said in eight hours or so?
16 THE COURT: He didn't even say that much. That
17 was Mr. Rinder doing most of that talking.
18 BY MR. DANDAR:
19 Q The list, that is all he said, Mr. Rosen. He gave
20 you the list ??
21 A Well, whenever ?? whenever there were any points
22 of contention, Mr. Rosen would be the bad guy. You know, he
23 clearly was ?? you know, that was his role there, as far as
24 I could tell. You know, Mr. Rinder was sort of being the
25 good guy, and Mr. Rosen was the bad guy.
1383
1 So, you know, during the course of that day, at
2 least three or four times, you know, they would go off and
3 meet, we would stay in the room and meet, or we would go off
4 and meet and they would stay in the room, just to talk about
5 where we were, you know, a caucus, sort of.
6 Q So what did they talk about? What did Rinder talk
7 about in reference to the litigation issue?
8 A Well, if you want to get off of the broad areas
9 and get into any specific area, we can do that. But as far
10 as the broad areas, he didn't have any further discussions
11 about it.
12 Q All right. Have we talked ??
13 THE COURT: What we would really like, because,
14 Mr. Dandar ?? I don't know what the deal is here.
15 What he would really like, he would like to know as
16 much as you can remember about what was said.
17 THE WITNESS: Okay.
18 THE COURT: Then ?? you can wait until he's
19 done, then you can pick the part you want to talk
20 about.
21 BY MR. DANDAR:
22 Q All right. So keep telling us everything you can
23 remember about what was said.
24 A Well, the ?? the principal thing that was said,
25 you know, after we both went through our general concerns
1384
1 about coming to a settlement, was that from the Church of
2 Scientology's standpoint ?? and this was Mr. Rinder
3 talking ?? that it was imperative, before we could even
4 begin settlement talks, that Stacy Brooks and I come to
5 Florida and set the record straight in the wrongful death
6 case and the breach of contract case.
7 You know, they said, you know, "We ?? we don't
8 believe that you've been completely forthcoming in what has
9 gone on in this case."
10 THE COURT: Are you trying to say now he was
11 more concerned about that breach of contract case up
12 there in Clearwater than he was about this case down
13 here in St. Petersburg?
14 THE WITNESS: No. But he was definitely
15 talking about both cases. I mean, clearly in terms
16 of the list, the Florida cases were the ones where
17 the most money had been spent.
18 THE COURT: Are you saying that they had an
19 equal concern about the case up in Clearwater as
20 they did about the case down here in St. Petersburg?
21 THE WITNESS: No. I believe this one was of
22 more concern, without any doubt. But I'm just
23 saying they were talked about together, as opposed
24 to separately.
25
1385
1 BY MR. DANDAR:
2 Q What else did they say?
3 A Well, you know, from that point on, you know, we
4 began to try to extract some concessions concerning
5 discovery, concerning the contempt hearings. And, you know,
6 there was a lot of dancing around about that. And,
7 basically, they weren't interested in dancing.
8 Q What else?
9 A Well, I mean, in essence, that is what the meeting
10 consisted of. That meeting and the next morning were all
11 revolving around this, you know, setting the record
12 straight, and us trying to get them to agree to
13 postponements or cancellations of the contempt hearings or
14 whatever we could do.
15 And, you know, we were only there about an hour, I
16 guess, the second morning.
17 Stacy Brooks got really upset, you know, and stood
18 up and said, you know, "You're not talking with us in good
19 faith."
20 And Mr. Jonas tried to calm everything down, and
21 they went out of the room. And we talked. And basically we
22 said that ?? well, Mr. Jonas called up Mr. Rosen's office
23 where they had all gone to and said, "We don't think we have
24 anything to discuss any further and we're going to leave."
25 And so we left.
1386
1 Q And before you called me on Friday night,
2 March 29th, did you have any further discussions with
3 Mr. Rosen?
4 A No. Mr. Rinder called about an hour after we
5 left, at Mr. Jonas' office, in New York. And I spoke to
6 him.
7 And he said, "Look, you know, I just want you to
8 know that despite the fact that we couldn't come to any
9 meeting of the minds here, the door is not closed. If you
10 want to talk to us some more, we're willing to talk." And
11 then, you know, we went off.
12 And I did call him later the next week to set up a
13 meeting down here in Florida.
14 Q Anything else on the 28th or 29th of March before
15 you called me the night of the 29th?
16 A Well, I called you the night of the 28th first.
17 Q Okay. Anything that we haven't ?? you haven't
18 mentioned yet that transpired in Mr. Rosen's office on
19 March 28th?
20 A Not that I can remember.
21 Q Okay. You called me on the night of the 28th.
22 What did you say? What was that about?
23 A Well, I said that I wanted to set up a meeting
24 with you and Dell.
25 Q Did you say why?
1387
1 A No. I said as soon as possible next week.
2 Q And did I ask you why?
3 A No. You didn't.
4 Q I just said, "Okay"?
5 A Well, keep in mind that you were aware that we
6 were going down there to meet with them. You know, I didn't
7 think that I had to say, "Well, you know, we met with these
8 guys and I think we need to sit down and talk."
9 Q Did you discuss any of the seven or eight
10 categories with me on the night of the 28th of March?
11 A Not that I can remember. I think it was a very
12 short call. There were several people standing around and I
13 couldn't talk.
14 Q Who was standing around?
15 A There was Stacy Brooks, Steve Jonas, and a couple
16 other people who were attorneys unconnected with this
17 matter.
18 Q Okay, let's go to the date of March 28th and let's
19 see if we can get more specific. Of course what I'm
20 interested in is litigation as one of the seven or eight
21 categories. I want to know everything that was said about
22 litigation as being a point of interest for Mr. Rinder.
23 A You wanted to know ?? you want to know what?
24 Q I want to know what Mr. Rinder said that he wanted
25 you to do or he wanted to happen as part of his negotiations
1388
1 with you concerning litigation.
2 A Well, as I said, the only one who really talked
3 about the litigation generally was Mr. Rosen, you know. And
4 Mr. Rinder talked about how setting the record straight in
5 Florida was a precondition to getting into negotiations.
6 Q Okay. What did Mr. Rinder say he meant by setting
7 the record straight in Florida?
8 A Mmm, you know, he didn't say that, you know, "You
9 guys have outright lied." He implied that there have been a
10 lot of things untold or covered up that need to come out.
11 And that was how he was talking about setting the record
12 straight in Florida. He mentioned absolutely zero
13 specifics. It was very broad and very general.
14 Q Well, then how do you know that Mr. Rinder wasn't
15 just sitting there calling your bluff if he wasn't so
16 specific as to what he meant by setting the record straight?
17 A Well, Stacy Brooks and I knew what the bluff was,
18 if it was a bluff, which wasn't a bluff, if you follow what
19 that meant. You know, we knew it wasn't a bluff.
20 Q He didn't mention one topic at all to you to back
21 up what he said, setting the record ??
22 A Zero.
23 Q ?? setting the record straight?
24 A Zero.
25 Q So you sat there, and you and Ms. Brooks heard him
1389
1 say, "You have to set the record straight in Florida," and
2 how did you respond to that?
3 A We didn't discuss anything about setting the
4 record straight. What we tried to do is, "Look, if we're
5 going to do that, we've got to get some concessions here."
6 Q You didn't respond by saying, "What do you mean by
7 setting the record straight?"
8 A We did not.
9 Q Did you say anything or make a gesture or anything
10 that would imply, directly or indirectly, to Mr. Rinder or
11 Mr. Rosen, "Yeah, you're right, we do need to set the record
12 straight in Florida"?
13 A No.
14 Q So when he said, "Set the record straight," you
15 two sat mute and didn't respond at all?
16 A Mmm, by and large, yes. Yes.
17 Q What does that "by and large" mean?
18 A By and large, that is what we did.
19 Q Does that mean yes, we just sat there quietly and
20 looked at him?
21 And did he respond or make a gesture or anything?
22 A Almost all of the discussion ?? that first day,
23 almost none of the discussion was I involved in. Mr. Jonas
24 was doing the talking.
25 Q So you sat ??
1390
1 A You know, I would come in, I would say something
2 every now and then. But Mr. Jonas was, by and large, doing
3 all of the talking. Stacy Brooks did some.
4 Q Okay. What did Mr. Jonas say when Mr. Rinder
5 said, "You first have to set the record straight in
6 Florida"?
7 A Mmm, he didn't say anything, really. He ?? he
8 talked to Stacy and I about it at the next time we had a
9 caucus.
10 Q What did Stacy Brooks say when Mr. Rinder said,
11 "You have to set the record straight in Florida"?
12 A I don't believe she said a thing.
13 Q And did Mr. Rinder say anything more than, "You
14 have to set the record straight in Florida"?
15 A Concerning what?
16 Q For example, did he say, "And what I mean by that,
17 Mr. Minton and Ms. Brooks, is that I know you lied under
18 oath in your depositions"?
19 A No, he never said anything of the kind.
20 Q Or did he say, "I know, Mr. Minton and Ms. Brooks,
21 that you destroyed documents that were subject to a court
22 order"?
23 A He never mentioned anything like that.
24 Q So he didn't explain himself at all when he used
25 the phrase "set the record straight"?
1391
1 A You know, I think that Ms. Brooks and I had a
2 better understanding of what that meant than anybody.
3 Q What was the answer to my question?
4 A No, he never said anything about any specifics
5 concerning anything about setting the record straight.
6 Q That whole day?
7 A No.
8 Q Correct?
9 A The whole day and the next day.
10 Q All right. So when did someone like Mr. Rinder or
11 Mr. Rosen, or anyone else representing the interests of the
12 Church of Scientology on March 28th or March 29th, say
13 anything to you about dismissing the Lisa McPherson case?
14 A Mr. Rinder stated at some point that, "We think
15 that if you set the record straight in the Florida cases,
16 the case ?? the wrongful death case will be dismissed."
17 Q When did he say that?
18 A Sometime in the afternoon.
19 Q Of what day?
20 A The first day.
21 Q And you sat there and Mr. Jonas sat there and
22 Ms. Brooks sat there and you didn't say, "What do you mean?
23 Explain yourself. What are you talking about?" Did you say
24 any of those things?
25 A Mmm, well, Mr. Jonas' feeling was that ?? Mmm,
1392
1 that this was ?? that Scientology was playing hard ball to
2 try to get a settlement in the case.
3 Q Here?
4 A Yeah, in the wrongful ??
5 Q With the estate?
6 A Yeah.
7 Q With the estate?
8 A But I didn't, you know, see it that way. And I'm
9 not sure how Ms. Brooks saw it. I mean, even when we left,
10 you know, Mr. Jonas said, you know, "I just think they're
11 playing hard ball to try to get a settlement."
12 THE COURT: With whom, pray tell?
13 THE WITNESS: With the estate.
14 THE COURT: Oh.
15 BY MR. DANDAR:
16 Q Is it your testimony when Mr. Rinder said, "If you
17 set the record straight in Florida, that will result in a
18 dismissal of the wrongful death case"?
19 A Yes. He said something to that effect, yeah.
20 Q Did he say that in the morning, or in the
21 afternoon?
22 MR. WEINBERG: Asked and answered.
23 THE COURT: Sustained.
24 MR. DANDAR: Did I miss that?
25 THE COURT: Yes, you did.
1393
1 MR. DANDAR: I'm sorry.
2 THE COURT: The afternoon of the first day, as
3 I recall.
4 MR. WEINBERG: That is what he said.
5 MR. DANDAR: I knew it was the first day. All
6 right.
7 BY MR. DANDAR:
8 Q And nobody asked him to explain himself?
9 A Mmm, you know, I really don't think so.
10 Q Isn't it true, Mr. Minton, that what Mr. Rinder
11 said to you was, "If you want a global settlement with the
12 Church of Scientology, you, Mr. Minton, have to get the Lisa
13 McPherson case dismissed"?
14 A That's not what he said. You know, Mr. Dandar, I
15 think you have to give Mr. Rinder a little bit of credit.
16 You know, Mr. Rinder didn't go in there, you know,
17 threatening anybody. He didn't go in there saying, you
18 know, "You told X, Y and Z lies."
19 They were obviously delicate matters that he was
20 talking about. And I believe he dealt with them in a way
21 that was appropriate, given what was going on there.
22 Q Are you and Mr. Rinder friends now?
23 A We've never gone out to a restaurant together or
24 bowling or anything like that. But, you know, I don't ?? I
25 don't find ?? I find him to be a very nice person.
1394
1 Q Ms. Brooks find him to be a very nice person, as
2 well?
3 A I believe she does.
4 Q Have you ever met with Mr. Miscavige?
5 A No.
6 Q Just ??
7 A You know ??
8 Q Before we go off ?? I'm sorry, go ahead.
9 A You know, I think one of the problems that all of
10 us have had, and I include you in that, is that we have so
11 demonized some of the people in Scientology, like Mr. Moxon
12 and Mr. Rinder, that it's really hard for us to imagine that
13 these are normal human beings who think and laugh and have
14 fun and tell jokes and can sit around and talk about things
15 that we've both done to each other without recriminations as
16 a result of it.
17 Q Well, you can speak for yourself but don't speak
18 for me. Okay?
19 Now, Mr. Minton, before we go off of March 28th, I
20 want to make sure ?? I want to make sure, because until I
21 asked you the question and used that magic word "dismissal,"
22 you didn't remember the word "dismissal" coming out of
23 Mr. Rinder's mouth on March 28.
24 My question was did anybody say anything, when
25 Mr. Rinder said, "If you set the record straight in Florida,
1395
1 the Lisa McPherson case will be dismissed"?
2 MR. WEINBERG: I think, your Honor, I object to
3 the form of the question, particularly Mr. Dandar's
4 comments about him never saying "dismissal," because
5 I believe that was discussed in direct some, you
6 know, however many days ago.
7 THE COURT: Good Lord, I wouldn't know if it
8 was or not.
9 MR. WEINBERG: I understand that. So I object
10 to the form, if he could just ask it without ??
11 THE COURT: Right. That is sustained.
12 MR. WEINBERG: ?? without all of the ?? you
13 know.
14 THE COURT: Yes. Just like, Mr. Dandar, you
15 didn't remember that he already said it was the
16 afternoon.
17 MR. DANDAR: Right.
18 THE COURT: Some of us may not have a clue what
19 this witness said in direct. I often thought maybe
20 we could get done if we just stay at it three days
21 without a break. It seems like whenever there is a
22 break, a whole bunch more exhibits come. And do you
23 know how many times we've gotten to this first
24 conversation with you?
25 MR. DANDAR: I know.
1396
1 THE COURT: At least three different times at
2 the end of the day. So I'll break and then we get
3 back to it, and it will be time for a break, then at
4 the end of the ?? if I didn't force you?all to stay
5 in here, like I did that one night, we would
6 probably still have Mr. Merrett on the stand.
7 MR. DANDAR: I would love for you to do that.
8 MR. WEINBERG: No.
9 THE COURT: Well, you know, I just can't
10 because I'm getting too old.
11 MR. DANDAR: Just so many depositions that have
12 been cancelled because of this, this is terrible.
13 THE COURT: You know, what you really need to
14 concentrate on and what you really need to worry
15 about is what is going on right here.
16 MR. DANDAR: All right.
17 BY MR. DANDAR:
18 Q Mr. Minton, before we leave March 28th and 29th ??
19 A Yes?
20 Q ?? did you, Ms. Brooks or Mr. Jonas make any reply
21 at all when Mr. Rinder said, "If you set the record straight
22 in Florida, the case will be dismissed"?
23 A Yes. There was some reply after a break.
24 Q What was that ??
25 A After a break. Mmm, Mr. Jonas said that our
1397
1 position was that it was a case with merit.
2 THE COURT: "Case with merit" meaning not
3 Merrett, the lawyer ??
4 THE WITNESS: Right. That it was a case with
5 merit, as opposed to M?E?R?R?E?T?T.
6 THE COURT: All right. I got you.
7 A And that, you know, that we didn't see how that
8 could possibly result.
9 BY MR. DANDAR:
10 Q And what was Mr. Rinder's reply?
11 THE COURT: Which case ?? obviously the only
12 case in which the Church of Scientology was a
13 defendant was the Lisa McPherson ??
14 THE WITNESS: The wrongful death case, yes.
15 THE COURT: So that is the case you are talking
16 about on that?
17 THE WITNESS: Yes, that is right.
18 BY MR. DANDAR:
19 Q What was Mr. Rinder's reply when Mr. Jonas said
20 the wrongful death case has merit?
21 A Mmm, he disagreed with it. I believe he said
22 that ?? you know, that Mr. Dandar knows better than anybody
23 the evidence in this case. And the evidence in this case
24 doesn't support the allegations.
25 Q And what was the reply to that comment by
1398
1 Mr. Rinder?
2 A No, that is what Mr. Rinder said.
3 Q I know. What was the reply to that comment?
4 A By Mr. Jonas?
5 Q Or whoever. You, Ms. Brooks, Mr. Jonas.
6 A Well, I don't think there was a reply to it. I
7 mean, you know, Mr. Jonas has no idea what you know. And he
8 wouldn't have been in a position ?? and Stacy and I were, by
9 and large, letting Mr. Jonas conduct those discussions.
10 Q As you left the meeting on the 28th and the
11 morning of the 29th, no one had ever talked about what
12 Mr. Rinder meant by the statement "set the record straight,"
13 correct?
14 A Well, "set the record straight" meaning to tell
15 the truth.
16 Q But no one knew what Mr. Rinder was ??
17 THE COURT: Well, did somebody say that, in
18 other words, I have heard this phrase, "Set the
19 record straight." Who said what that meant? Is
20 that somebody that said ??
21 A I think probably Mr. Rinder is the one who used
22 the word "truth," that, "All we're trying to get at in this
23 case is the truth." You know, so setting the record
24 straight, from his perspective, was the truth.
25
1399
1 BY MR. DANDAR:
2 Q Was he talking about the LMT and destroying
3 documents?
4 A He didn't say ?? you know, he didn't lay out
5 any ?? one iota of specifics. It was very, very general.
6 Q He certainly wasn't talking about the documents
7 that the Church of Scientology destroyed, was he?
8 MR. WEINBERG: Objection as to the form, your
9 Honor.
10 THE COURT: I'm sorry, I was back about six
11 questions ago.
12 MR. WEINBERG: It was argumentative. He said
13 he wasn't talking about the documents that the
14 Church destroyed.
15 THE COURT: Okay. Sustained.
16 BY MR. DANDAR:
17 Q Was he mentioning that?
18 MR. WEINBERG: It was just sustained.
19 BY MR. DANDAR:
20 Q Was Mr. Rinder mentioning any ?? the misconduct of
21 the Church of Scientology?
22 THE COURT: Well, I understand what his
23 objection is. He's ?? the reason he's objecting to
24 the form of that. That is kind of like "You beat
25 your wife?" You are putting the misconduct of the
1400
1 Church in that phrase, so, you know, if he mentioned
2 the misconduct, naturally Mr. Rinder didn't think
3 the Church committed any misconduct. So ??
4 BY MR. DANDAR:
5 Q Did Mr. Rinder say that only you and Ms. Brooks
6 had to set the record straight in Florida?
7 A Mmm, yes. I think ?? I think so. I think that
8 was the implication. I don't know whether he actually just
9 used our names.
10 Q Okay. So he didn't identify anyone when he said
11 "set the record straight"?
12 A Well, he was talking to us, so we assumed it was
13 us; you know, that he wasn't talking to, you know, John
14 Merrett or Jesse Prince.
15 Q That is what I'm trying to get at. Mr. Rinder
16 wasn't saying ?? couching his words in phrases that led you
17 to believe that "setting the record straight" meant anyone
18 other than you and Ms. Brooks?
19 A Well, Ms. Brooks and I took it to mean other
20 people once we talked about it.
21 Q After you left Mr. Rinder?
22 A Yeah.
23 Q But nothing that he said to you caused you to
24 believe at that moment that he meant anyone other than you
25 and Ms. Brooks?
1401
1 A That is right.
2 Q Now, what exactly did Mr. Rinder say when he
3 called you an hour after you left the meeting on the morning
4 of March 29th?
5 A Well, I believe I already testified to that a few
6 minutes ago. But ??
7 THE COURT: Wait a second. I'm already
8 confused. Are we done with the 28th now? I ?? for
9 some reason, I thought the phone call occurred on
10 the 28th. That is not accurate?
11 THE WITNESS: No. It was the 29th.
12 THE COURT: Okay.
13 THE WITNESS: The morning.
14 THE COURT: When is it you and Ms. Brooks
15 decided to leave? On the 29th?
16 THE WITNESS: The morning of the 29th, yes.
17 THE COURT: When you are back on the 29th, that
18 is when you all leave, and it was after that
19 Mr. Rinder called ??
20 THE WITNESS: Right.
21 THE COURT: ?? said, "Even though it broke
22 down, we can still meet in Florida"?
23 THE WITNESS: No. No. He didn't say in
24 Florida. What he said was that, you know, "We're
25 sorry we couldn't make any progress on our talks,
1402
1 but we want you to understand the door is not closed
2 and if you want to talk again, we're willing to sit
3 down and talk."
4 BY MR. DANDAR:
5 Q There is absolutely nothing agreed to on the 28th
6 or the 29th ??
7 A No.
8 Q ?? except "We'll sit down and have further talks"?
9 A Well, there ?? yes, there were some things agreed
10 to, yes.
11 I told him, "Look, we already contacted ?? in that
12 hour since we came back, we have already contacted
13 Mr. Howie. We have already contacted Mr. McGowan. We'll be
14 going ahead with the contempt hearing in front of Judge
15 Schaeffer. We're going to be going ahead with the
16 deposition in front of Mr. Rosen and the contempt hearing in
17 front of Judge Baird," just to tell him that, you know,
18 "Look, okay, we're not going to get any concessions out of
19 you, fine, we're going to go ahead and do it."
20 Q So you were playing tough?
21 A No, not playing tough. That is just what we had
22 to do.
23 Q What did Mr. Rinder want you to do in reference to
24 the movie The Profit?
25 A He never discussed anything about it. It was just
1403
1 one of the things on his list.
2 Q Did he talk about what he thought the movie was
3 about?
4 A No. I said it was on his list. And there was no
5 discussion about it. The idea of ?? as far as I could see,
6 other than the litigation, you know, there wasn't any ?? you
7 know, the other things were so broad that, you know, these
8 things we can deal with later.
9 Q What litigation was ongoing, other than
10 Wollersheim and McPherson?
11 A Mmm ??
12 MR. WEINBERG: Your Honor, asked and answered.
13 I think he already explained, at least as to the
14 European litigation, which he just explained.
15 THE COURT: Well, excluding that.
16 BY MR. DANDAR:
17 Q Is there anything else in the United States that
18 was ongoing except McPherson and Wollersheim?
19 A Let's see. The Ward case is still ongoing.
20 Q That is a case in bankruptcy, right?
21 A Well, there is the ?? well, not quite. But let me
22 just add another thing to the list on our side. I remember
23 another thing on the list.
24 And that was to find some way to ?? for the Church
25 of Scientology to work out a final agreement with Mr. Ward.
1404
1 Q That was one of your requests?
2 A Yes. I think that was. I'm pretty sure that was.
3 Q Okay. Anything else?
4 A You know, he's a good friend of mine and, you
5 know, he's got this stipulated judgment hanging over his
6 head. And I ?? you know, his wife and family ?? you know,
7 they have to pay $200 a month to the Church of Scientology
8 for the rest of their lives. And it's a lot of money to
9 them.
10 Q How much is the judgment?
11 A I think it's a $1 million ?? $3 million stipulated
12 judgment.
13 Q And this was because Mr. Ward posted something
14 that was copyrighted by Scientology on the Internet?
15 A Yes. I mean, this was one of ?? as Mr. Lieberman
16 was talking about, it is one of the overall copyright
17 infringement cases that RTC filed against a number of people
18 for posting their scriptures on the Internet.
19 But, sorry, back to Ward. Yes, there is still
20 ongoing matters relating to that case, and particularly that
21 stipulated judgment. And certainly at some stage when they
22 tried to ?? in fact, that RICO chart produced down here, you
23 know, the "Enterprise Chart" ??
24 Q Right?
25 A ?? this is part of what appeared to be an effort
1405
1 to, you know, collect on that judgment and then come after
2 me on it. That was, you know, back in early 2000 or late
3 '99. I can't remember when that chart was introduced in
4 federal court here.
5 Q Now, the courtesy copy of the Armstrong lawsuit ??
6 A Preview copy.
7 Q What?
8 A I think it was called a preview copy.
9 Q Oh, the preview copy that Mr. Rinder or ?? was it
10 Mr. Rinder or Mr. Rosen was so generous in allowing you to
11 look at that on March 28?
12 A Mr. Jonas looked at it. Stacy and I didn't look
13 at it.
14 Q Who handed it to Mr. Jonas?
15 A It was a wide table, and Mr. Rosen threw it across
16 the table.
17 Q Okay. That suit was also against you for ?? and
18 damages claimed being somewhere around a hundred million
19 dollars?
20 A No, I think $10,050,000.
21 Q Did you hear Ms. Brooks testify here a week or so
22 ago saying it was a hundred million?
23 A No. I just multiplied $50,000 times 201
24 infringements or violations of the agreement, that comes up
25 to $10,050,000.
1406
1 Q And did they throw around any figures in reference
2 to RICO?
3 A No. The only RICO?related figure is how much they
4 spent on a potential RICO case.
5 Q Did they tell you they get to treble the damages
6 under RICO?
7 A No, they didn't say anything other than what I
8 just told you.
9 Q All right. And when you left there on the 29th of
10 March, or 28th of March, either day ?? I don't want to get
11 stuck asking you the wrong question.
12 A On the 29th.
13 Q Well, each day, did you leave there with any
14 documents in your hand?
15 A No documents, other than Mr. Jonas' notes.
16 Q Okay. So now you called me up on the night of
17 Good Friday, right?
18 A Right.
19 THE COURT: Is this the same call we've been
20 over a thousand times?
21 MR. DANDAR: Well, I want to introduce a letter
22 that hasn't been introduced yet.
23 THE COURT: All right.
24 MR. FUGATE: Are we near a comfort break?
25 THE COURT: My reputation is going to hell in a
1407
1 handbag. Everybody says I crack the whip, and I'm
2 wondering what in the world I'm doing. I'm sort of
3 wondering if we have to hear the same thing over and
4 over.
5 MR. DANDAR: I'm not going to ask him about
6 blood and death.
7 THE COURT: Good.
8 MR. WEINBERG: Does this have an exhibit
9 number?
10 MR. DANDAR: What is the number?
11 THE CLERK: 76.
12 THE COURT: Maybe, however, my demeanor ratings
13 will go up in the next poll. Pass the word.
14 MR. FUGATE: I'll vote for you.
15 THE COURT: Pass the word my demeanor has been
16 exemplary, under very trying times, I might add.
17 BY MR. DANDAR:
18 Q I'll show you the clerk's copy of Exhibit 76.
19 THE COURT: Nobody would believe it if you said
20 it.
21 BY MR. DANDAR:
22 Q Do you recognize this as a letter I sent to you on
23 March 30, 2002, Mr. Minton?
24 A I recognize it for a lot of things.
25 Q Well, just my question is, is this a copy of the
1408
1 letter I sent to you on March 30, 2002?
2 THE COURT: Is this an E?Mail thing,
3 Mr. Dandar?
4 MR. DANDAR: I think it is. Yes.
5 THE COURT: I looked at the back and that is
6 why I wondered. When I see Mr. Minton's E?Mails,
7 all of the stuff is on the top. This doesn't look
8 like a letter that a lawyer sends out on letterhead,
9 so I assume ??
10 MR. DANDAR: It is an E?Mail. You are right,
11 Judge.
12 THE COURT: Okay. Maybe it isn't, but I
13 just ??
14 MR. DANDAR: No, actually that should not even
15 be attached to this. That is something else. That
16 is April 25th, 2002. So ??
17 THE WITNESS: Well, no, Mr. Dandar, that is ??
18 that is just the date you decrypted something,
19 April 25th, 2002.
20 THE COURT: Well, get this straight. I have to
21 take a break. It is three o'clock. My court
22 reporter, I'm sure, is going crazy.
23 You know, under my contract, and I drew that
24 contract with the court reporters, I'm required to
25 give them a 15?minute break every hour and a half.
1409
1 So you wonder why I check, I try to honor that
2 agreement.
3 All right, we're in recess for 20 minutes, so
4 3:15, now this time by the courtroom clock.
5 (WHEREUPON, a recess was taken.)
6 _______________________________________
7 THE COURT: You may be seated.
8 MR. McGOWAN: Your Honor?
9 THE COURT: Yes?
10 MR. McGOWAN: If it please the Court and
11 counsel, if I may interrupt for a moment.
12 Last week I asked Mark Bunker to send down the
13 remaining videotapes that had been removed from the
14 Lisa McPherson Trust.
15 And they have arrived, and I just wanted to
16 tender them to the Court. Eventually, I guess,
17 they'll find a way over to Mr. Keane's office. But
18 given that the other ones were given to you, I
19 thought we would get them here as quick as we could.
20 THE COURT: Okay.
21 MR. McGOWAN: So these are ?? just for the
22 record, this is an Express Mail package. It is
23 under seal. It has not been opened. It is
24 addressed to me, Thomas McGowan, from Mark Bunker,
25 and it's 19 Fairway Drive, Number 4, Daring, New
1410
1 Hampshire, looks like 03038.
2 THE COURT: I have a wonderful idea. What I
3 did with the others, I just signed across the tape.
4 Why don't we have one person from each side sign
5 across the tape, and why don't I then let you take
6 them to Mr. Keane's office.
7 MR. McGOWAN: I would be happy to, your Honor.
8 MR. MOXON: Fine. Your Honor, could he grab
9 the other ones inside of your office and take those,
10 too?
11 THE COURT: Mr. Keane already has those.
12 MR. MOXON: Great.
13 THE COURT: He came by Friday after he was
14 waiting for his verdict and I turned them over to
15 him, and I was happy to see them gone. So he has
16 them.
17 MR. MOXON: Thank you.
18 MR. McGOWAN: I'll take them over there.
19 THE COURT: I need to put my initials on them.
20 MR. DANDAR: Judge, while we are doing
21 miscellaneous matters, I have the signed
22 declarations of Stacy Brooks that she was unable to
23 identify.
24 THE COURT: Yes.
25 MR. DANDAR: And Mr. McGowan is leaving. I
1411
1 would like to hand them to him so he can have
2 Ms. Brooks look at them. And let me just announce
3 what I'm handing him.
4 February 3, '94.
5 March 3, '94.
6 March 22, '94.
7 March 13, ' 94 ?? or March 13, '97. Excuse me.
8 And the undated ?? or the one that has no
9 caption on it which is dated October 14, '94.
10 And I'm going to file this with the clerk, and
11 ask the record to reflect that we're substituting
12 the unsigned ones with the signed ones.
13 THE COURT: Okay. Before we do that, I suppose
14 Ms. Brooks ought to look at those and make sure that
15 is her signature. I think what she testified to is
16 she wouldn't be able to say for sure if they were
17 hers unless she saw them because they had come off
18 an Internet ??
19 MR. McGOWAN: Correct.
20 THE COURT: So these, I take it, are the actual
21 declarations. So if she wants to look at them, I
22 would assume that is what she wanted to make sure.
23 And then ?? then what we'll do is any one that is in
24 evidence that is off the Internet will actually come
25 out and those will be substituted, and that is
1412
1 assuming that she recognizes that those are her
2 signature.
3 MR. McGOWAN: Would you like me to just prepare
4 like an affidavit authenticating or ??
5 THE COURT: That would be great.
6 MR. McGOWAN: Okay. If she doesn't want to get
7 up for just that purpose, if you'll just prepare an
8 affidavit stating that ?? that her testimony
9 regarding the ones that were posted off the Internet
10 stating that she couldn't be certain because she
11 didn't see the signed ones, and she did see the
12 signed ones now, and those are her affidavit.
13 MR. McGOWAN: Very good.
14 THE COURT: And I think the idea was if there
15 is anything in there that was false, she was to let
16 us know. So we need to know that, too. I mean, I
17 think the idea was she didn't think ?? clearly she
18 didn't think there was anything that was false, but
19 she was going to look them over and let us know. So
20 I don't know if she had a chance to look over the
21 old ones or whether she never did look at them.
22 MR. McGOWAN: She has been looking at these and
23 others, and we're in the process of doing that,
24 anyway, of doing the authentication. And if there
25 is anything ??
1413
1 THE COURT: An affidavit will be fine then,
2 unless somebody needs to have her testify again. I
3 don't think that would be necessary.
4 MR. McGOWAN: Great.
5 MR. DANDAR: It depends on how she phrases the
6 affidavit, I guess.
7 THE COURT: Well, yes.
8 MR. McGOWAN: Well, in the interest of economy,
9 at least these affidavits, I'll have her look at
10 them and just a quick ?? but if there is an
11 explanation we can always do that later.
12 THE COURT: I think what she said, if she
13 submitted any false affidavits ?? she said she
14 didn't think so ??
15 MR. McGOWAN: Right.
16 THE COURT: ?? but she needs to say if there
17 are any ?? if there are any false statements in
18 there, what they are.
19 MR. McGOWAN: Correct.
20 THE COURT: To be honest, I don't think anyone
21 would be interested in her explanation in an
22 affidavit form. I think if she has false statements
23 in there, she'll probably have to testify.
24 MR. McGOWAN: Okay. Thank you, your Honor.
25 THE COURT: I mean, if she does, she can make
1414
1 an explanation. But what I'm going to guess is the
2 lawyer will say, "I want to cross?examine her about
3 it."
4 MR. McGOWAN: Okay.
5 THE COURT: Okay? Great.
6 MR. McGOWAN: Good. Thank you.
7 THE COURT: Continue.
8 MR. DANDAR: All right.
9 BY MR. DANDAR:
10 Q I had you look at Plaintiff's Exhibit 76, which is
11 my March 30 letter of 2002 to you, Mr. Minton, which I
12 believe was sent to you by E?Mail.
13 Do you recall getting that?
14 A Yes, I did, sometime late afternoon or early
15 evening.
16 MR. DANDAR: Okay, I would like to ??
17 A Of that day.
18 MR. DANDAR: I would like to move that into
19 evidence.
20 THE COURT: Any objection?
21 MR. WEINBERG: I have a question as to ?? can
22 we tell from this what E?Mail address or from what
23 E?Mail it came? And can we ??
24 THE WITNESS: Well, you can't tell from this,
25 you know, who it was sent to or who it was sent by.
1415
1 But, you know, I'm just taking Mr. Dandar's word.
2 THE COURT: Well, if Mr. Dandar will be a
3 witness, you indicated ??
4 MR. WEINBERG: Right.
5 THE COURT: ?? he's suggesting it is his, he's
6 going to testify it is his. Mr. Minton is just here
7 saying he got it.
8 MR. WEINBERG: It was a pitiful effort to voir
9 dire, but I was just trying to ??
10 THE COURT: I understand. I'll let it in
11 subject to ??
12 MR. WEINBERG: I wasn't moving to keep it out.
13 THE COURT: I understand.
14 MR. WEINBERG: I was just trying to further it.
15 BY MR. DANDAR:
16 Q Mr. Minton, do you have any explanation in your
17 mind, in your understanding, of what Mr. Rinder meant when
18 he said, "If you set the record straight in the Lisa
19 McPherson case, the case will get dismissed," before you
20 left New York City?
21 A No.
22 Q And do you realize that I had a conversation with
23 your attorney, Mr. Jonas, also on the night of March 29th?
24 A Mmm, you may have.
25 Q Did I ask your permission to talk to Mr. Jonas
1416
1 when you called me on the night of March 29th?
2 A Mmm, I ?? I don't remember that. But you may
3 have. I just don't recall it.
4 Q And did you have Mr. Jonas call me on the night of
5 March 29th?
6 A I don't remember that, either.
7 MR. DANDAR: Okay, Judge ??
8 A It's possible that Stacy Brooks did, but I don't
9 remember it.
10 MR. DANDAR: All right, let me ??
11 THE COURT: If she testified that is what
12 happened and Mr. Jonas said that is what happened,
13 you wouldn't dispute it?
14 THE WITNESS: I wouldn't doubt it. I just
15 don't recall doing it myself.
16 THE COURT: All right.
17 BY MR. DANDAR:
18 Q All right. Let me hand up to you what has been
19 marked as Plaintiff's Exhibit 61. And I'll hand you,
20 Mr. Minton, the clerk's copy. And I don't know if this was
21 marked before.
22 MR. WEINBERG: It was.
23 MR. DANDAR: I hope not.
24 BY MR. DANDAR:
25 Q Wait. I didn't hand you the clerk's copy.
1417
1 THE COURT: This is in evidence already.
2 MR. FUGATE: I was going to ??
3 MR. WEINBERG: This is in evidence.
4 MR. FUGATE: ?? look and see.
5 THE COURT: It is. But the truth of the
6 matter, if he wants to put it in as another exhibit
7 in his case, it is all right.
8 But there will be no objection to this coming
9 in?
10 MR. FUGATE: There is no objection. But I want
11 to make sure, if we put it in, it carries both
12 numbers, at least for my purposes. I'll find it,
13 Judge.
14 THE COURT: All right. Continue on.
15 MR. DANDAR: Okay.
16 BY MR. DANDAR:
17 Q In this letter ?? Mr. Jonas indicates he sent you
18 a copy of this. Did you get a copy of this April 1, 2002
19 letter?
20 A Yes. I have the ?? the first time you asked me
21 about this, I hadn't got it. But when I went back to New
22 Hampshire, I have gotten it since that time.
23 Q In that letter he says that Sandy Rosen and your
24 attorney agreed that they would never ask any questions in
25 any of the discovery concerning the meetings that you had on
1418
1 March 28 and 29th in New York City, is that right?
2 Basically, that is what this says?
3 A What ?? characterize that for me again.
4 Q The bottom ?? the last ?? next?to?the?last
5 paragraph where it says: "So, for example, Scientology
6 should not ask your client, and she should not testify,
7 concerning Friday's discussions or subsequent ones among
8 Mr. Minton, Ms. Brooks, yourself and your client."
9 Is that your understanding of this letter?
10 A Yes.
11 Q Okay. "And also Mr. Rosen ??" the second sentence
12 of the second paragraph "?? on behalf of Scientology,
13 agreeing that Scientology would never ask your client, in a
14 deposition, any questions concerning efforts by Mr. Minton
15 or Ms. Brooks to settle the Florida action after last
16 Thursday."
17 Is that your understanding of the discussion in
18 this letter?
19 A Well, let me explain what this letter is all
20 about.
21 At some point during the discussions it came up
22 from me that I couldn't sit down and talk with Dell
23 Liebreich unless the Church of Scientology agreed not to
24 talk to her about it or depose her about it, because you had
25 indicated to me how concerned Dell was about any
1419
1 conversations with me.
2 So when we talked about this, you know, I said,
3 "Look, I don't have any intention of talking to Dell
4 Liebreich unless you're going to leave her alone."
5 Q Anything else?
6 A And so we left ?? we left the meeting on the
7 second day because we ?? you know, we left. And because we
8 had discussed the possibility ?? you, of setting up this
9 meeting with Dell Liebreich, Steve Jonas went ahead and
10 wrote this letter to you, confirming that this was, in fact,
11 what was agreed to.
12 MR. DANDAR: Judge, let me ?? I'm going to hand
13 the witness another letter which has already been
14 marked as a plaintiff's exhibit, and I had it
15 remarked as another exhibit so I apologize for that.
16 But it is an exhibit previously marked as Exhibit
17 Number ?? Plaintiff's Exhibit 13. It's the
18 April 10, 2002 letter from Mr. ?? or from me to
19 Mr. Jonas. And ??
20 MR. WEINBERG: What number?
21 MR. DANDAR: It is Number 62, so it's in there
22 several times.
23 THE COURT: Your Number 52?
24 MR. DANDAR: 62.
25 MR. WEINBERG: I have a question. We have
1420
1 already marked it as Plaintiff's 13. Why would you
2 mark it as Plaintiff's 62?
3 MR. DANDAR: I didn't realize it until I had it
4 marked during the break.
5 MR. WEINBERG: Couldn't we just stipulate you
6 are showing him Plaintiff's Exhibit 13?
7 THE COURT: Sure. You mean it is already in as
8 Plaintiff's Exhibit 13 and Defendant's something
9 else?
10 MR. DANDAR: Yes.
11 THE COURT: It is going to be 13 then.
12 MR. WEINBERG: It is crazy to mark it again.
13 THE COURT: Madam clerk, whatever you just got,
14 the letter on Dandar & Dandar letterhead dated
15 April 10, 2002, do you show that as Plaintiff's
16 Exhibit 13?
17 THE CLERK: I'm checking, Judge.
18 Yes, I do.
19 THE COURT: Then that is what this is,
20 Plaintiff's 13.
21 MR. DANDAR: All right. So there will not be a
22 62.
23 THE COURT: Well, there may be, but this won't
24 be it.
25 MR. DANDAR: All right. All right.
1421
1 BY MR. DANDAR:
2 Q Did you get a copy of this letter that I wrote to
3 your attorney, Mr. Jonas?
4 A I saw his reply to this, and then later I saw
5 this. Yes.
6 Q Okay. And his reply is dated the next day.
7 Correct?
8 A Right.
9 Q And that is April 11, which is marked again as 63
10 which we withdraw because we're going to look at what has
11 already been marked as Exhibit Number 12.
12 MR. FUGATE: Judge, I think I misspoke. When
13 he said the Jonas letter, I thought a moment ago
14 that he was talking about this letter, Number 12.
15 And I don't ?? I hadn't seen the April 1 one.
16 THE COURT: Okay.
17 MR. FUGATE: So there isn't one, as far as I
18 know, on our side of the equation, just to clear up
19 the record.
20 THE COURT: Okay. Do I have a copy of this
21 letter you just gave him?
22 MR. DANDAR: You do have a copy. Would you
23 like another copy?