Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida
Pinellas (727)821?3320 Hillsborough (813)224?9500
Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224?9500
1488
1
2
3 IN THE CIRCUIT COURT FOR PINELLAS COUNTY, FLORIDA
4 CASE NO. 00-5682-CI-11
5
DELL LIEBREICH, as Personal
6 Representative of the ESTATE OF
LISA McPHERSON,
7
8 Plaintiff,
9 vs. VOLUME 12
10 CHURCH OF SCIENTOLOGY FLAG
SERVICE ORGANIZATION, JANIS
11 JOHNSON, ALAIN KARTUZINSKI
and DAVID HOUGHTON, D.D.S.,
12
Defendants.
13
_______________________________________/
14
15 PROCEEDINGS: Defendants' Ominbus Motion for
Terminating Sanctions and Other Relief.
16
DATE: May 28, 2002, morning session.
17
PLACE: Courtroom B, Judicial Buiding
18 St. Petersburg, Florida.
19 BEFORE: Hon. Susan F. Schaeffer,
Circuit Judge.
20
REPORTED BY: Donna M. Kanabay RMR, CRR,
21 Notary Public,
State of Florida at large.
22
23
24
25
1489
1 APPEARANCES:
2 MR. KENNAN G. DANDAR
DANDAR & DANDAR
3 5340 West Kennedy Blvd., Suite 201
Tampa, FL 33602
4 Attorney for Plaintiff.
5 MR. LUKE CHARLES LIROT
LUKE CHARLES LIROT, PA
6 112 N East Street, Street, Suite B
Tampa, FL 33602-4108
7 Attorney for Plaintiff.
8 MR. KENDRICK MOXON
MOXON & KOBRIN
9 1100 Cleveland Street, Suite 900
Clearwater, FL 33755
10 Attorney for Church of Scientology Flag Service
Organization.
11
MR. LEE FUGATE and
12 MR. MORRIS WEINBERG, JR. and
ZUCKERMAN, SPAEDER
13 101 E. Kennedy Blvd, Suite 1200
Tampa, FL 33602-5147
14 Attorneys for Church of Scientology Flag Service
Organization.
15
MR. ERIC M. LIEBERMAN
16 RABINOWITZ, BOUDIN, STANDARD
740 Broadway at Astor Place
17 New York, NY 10003-9518
Attorney for Church of Scientology Flag Service
18 Organization.
19 MR. MICHAEL LEE HERTZBERG
740 Broadway, Fifth Floor
20 New York, New York 10003
Attorney for Church of Scientology Flag Service
21 Organization.
22 MR. BRUCE G. HOWIE
PIPER, LUDIN, HOWIE & WERNER, P.A.
23 5720 Central Avenue
St. Petersburg, FL 33707
24 Attorney for Mr. Minton.
25
1490
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1491
1 (The proceedings resumed at 9:04 a.m.)
2 THE COURT: I appear to have lost a little
3 notebook that I had some notes in. And I couldn't
4 find it yesterday. I looked at home and I couldn't
5 find it at home. So I'm going to try to remember
6 this off the top of my head.
7 I think the last major order that I haven't
8 told you all about is the motion to exclude. And
9 I'm denying that. So the motion to exclude vitreous
10 chemistry will be denied.
11 The motion to exclude the cockroach testimony,
12 I've already discussed. I'm denying the motion for
13 Frye hearing and I'm denying the motion to exclude
14 based on that, but I'm granting the motion to
15 exclude based on the fact that, to date, I've heard
16 no evidence that would give a predicate to allow
17 that testimony. So in essence, I'm granting the
18 request to exclude, but not on the basis that it was
19 filed.
20 MR. DANDAR: As you previously talked about.
21 THE COURT: Yes.
22 The motion for severe sanctions, now that I
23 know what severe sanctions are -- because I'm
24 assuming they're like these terminating sanctions.
25 As I went back and looked at your -- you moved that
1492
1 I would exclude Moxon -- Mr. Moxon -- and I would,
2 dismiss the case or strike their answers and all
3 that sort of stuff. That's denied. But I'm going
4 to grant the motion for sanctions, as I previously
5 indicated.
6 But as I said, if you'll remember, I didn't
7 know what severe sanctions were. Now I do. So I'm
8 denying that specifically. I have that in the
9 order, that the requests that you made are denied,
10 both to remove Mr. Moxon and to in essence dismiss
11 the case, strike their answers or whatever else you
12 asked for.
13 I'm denying the request to reconsider Judge
14 Quesada's order, but I'm making it clear that in the
15 event I was anything but the succeeding judge in the
16 division where Judge Quesada was, then I would have
17 reconsidered the order. What that means is as far
18 as I'm concerned, if this case goes to another
19 judge -- and God knows it might. It could go on for
20 years and years -- and it's any judge other than the
21 judge of this division, I think that judge ought to
22 reconsider it.
23 The motion to strike Jesse Prince as a witness
24 is denied as of the date of that hearing. I think I
25 told you that yesterday.
1493
1 MR. LIEBERMAN: That's on the bias issue.
2 THE COURT: That's on the bias issue. Whatever
3 was raised by Mr. Moxon at that time. It was -- was
4 all right there at the hearing. But it was
5 principally bias. I don't remember whether he
6 raised the fact that he was paid or not. He may
7 have. But it certainly wasn't the essence of the
8 argument. The essence of the argument was the lack
9 of bias.
10 Do I have anything else outstanding that you
11 all can think of?
12 Anyway, I'm kind of working on all those orders
13 together. And I've got them in various stages of
14 draft. Hopefully, I'll have them all to you at the
15 same time, or close.
16 I can't think of anything else except for this
17 motion that I have under consideration. If I do,
18 you need to let me know, because I want to try to
19 get these orders to you all so if any appeals or
20 certs or whatever else is done on these orders, that
21 can be done.
22 MR. DANDAR: The defense has filed several
23 motions, I believe, for summary judgment.
24 THE COURT: Oh, yeah. But I haven't taken
25 those up yet.
1494
1 MR. DANDAR: And I don't want to -- I don't
2 want to be having you look at me and say, "Where's
3 the plaintiff's memorandum of law in response," so
4 I'd like to have a date certain so I can prepare for
5 that.
6 THE COURT: You need to have your motion for
7 summary judgment as to count I filed before this
8 hearing's over.
9 MR. DANDAR: Okay. All right.
10 THE COURT: I look at that as as important as
11 what all this testimony is.
12 MR. DANDAR: Okay.
13 THE COURT: I've read -- I've had a chance to
14 read their memorandum, and I would assume that you
15 need to be filing -- I mean, I tried to think what
16 you would be filing. Frankly, I don't know what
17 you're going to be filing. If it's Mr. Prince's
18 affidavit, quite frankly, based on what I know what
19 he said in his affidavit, it doesn't seem to me as
20 if he has much to support that, other than his
21 opinion from long ago, and what he thinks. I don't
22 think that's going to get you by a summary judgment.
23 So I don't know what you've got. You better
24 file it, I'd better see it. As I said, I always
25 think -- try to think ahead. I -- I'm not familiar
1495
1 with anything in this case that I know of. I mean,
2 I've gone back, I've read the doctor's testimony.
3 The doctor's testimony seemed to me to support a
4 homicide theory, based on what I perceive to be
5 manslaughter, gross negligence, recklessness, this
6 type of thing. Nothing in there I see that would
7 support, nor could they support that, from on high,
8 directions were given to kill this woman.
9 So as I said, the only thing I can see that
10 you're -- you'll be relying on is Mr. Prince's
11 affidavit. I don't think it's good enough. So you
12 know, just for whatever that's worth, that's where I
13 think that is. But you better file it before we get
14 done. Whatever you're going to file you better get
15 it done, because that's the first matter I'm going
16 to take up, most likely.
17 So that's in the mill. But I'm not working on
18 an order on that. There's not -- we're not there
19 yet.
20 You also have a motion for summary judgment on
21 the negligence count. You know, I've read it. We
22 haven't argued that. I think you need to -- I mean,
23 that's hardly the major point of the -- of all of
24 this. But it needs to be done.
25 For a deadline, you know, I plan -- I plan
1496
1 to -- to -- you know, I've got senior judge coverage
2 for this, because this was -- you know, we will be
3 in trial here pretty soon. So I'm going to take
4 advantage of that and take these things up one after
5 the other after the other, until all the rulings
6 have been made. And as I try to do, once I know
7 what I'm going to do on something, I'll let you
8 know.
9 The -- so it is not my intention to wait when
10 this is done and schedule these for six months down
11 the road. I plan to go to the next hearing. When
12 I'm done with this one, I'll probably ask you all --
13 I don't know whether I'm going to ask you all for
14 written closings on this or not. Just depends on
15 whether I have it in my head when it's all done or
16 not. Thus far, I can tell you, my head is very --
17 there's a lot in my head, and I haven't sorted it
18 through. Obviously, the testimony's not done. But
19 even what I've heard -- I can't remember what
20 Ms. Brooks said, for example, on the first or second
21 day of her testimony.
22 You all are getting daily transcripts. It
23 would be nice if somebody might copy me one, because
24 I honestly can't remember.
25 So that would be nice.
1497
1 MR. LIEBERMAN: Okay. We'll provide those to
2 you.
3 THE COURT: I used to get a courtesy copy --
4 (A discussion was held off the record.)
5 THE COURT: Is there anything else I have that
6 I should be working on?
7 MR. WEINBERG: There is the net accumulation.
8 THE COURT: And I've read that. And I've
9 already told you all I want to hear argument on
10 that. I don't -- I think Mr. Dandar kind of
11 indicated that -- just my reading of that suggests
12 you've got something that you need to show that
13 shows that you're -- that the estate, as it's
14 presently constituted, is entitled to net
15 accumulations.
16 MR. DANDAR: I will, Judge.
17 THE COURT: Okay. I know you're here and I
18 know you're tied up. The problem is, as I said, I
19 want to go -- while I have the benefit of senior
20 judge coverage, I want to take advantage of it. So
21 one day, when we finish this, whenever that might
22 be, I would most likely say, "Well, let's go to the
23 next one. What are we going to hear tomorrow?" So
24 be ready, okay?
25 Okay. Net accumulations. You're right.
1498
1 Anything else -- I'm really trying to think if
2 there's anything --
3 You know, I had that one motion under
4 advisement, the motion for severe sanctions. And as
5 I said, I finally dragged that out and got that
6 transcript and finally got all I needed together.
7 But I can't think of anything else that I have under
8 advisement.
9 MR. LIEBERMAN: I can't either.
10 THE COURT: Well, put your heads to it.
11 MR. LIEBERMAN: Yes.
12 THE COURT: If you think of anything, let me
13 know.
14 Okay. Ah, we were going to take up Mr. Howie.
15 I see that you want to be heard.
16 MR. HOWIE: Your Honor, yesterday afternoon,
17 based on plaintiff's request, the court directed me
18 to contact Steve Jonas, the attorney in Boston for
19 Mr. Minton, to inquire of the list --
20 THE COURT: Wait a second. I don't even have
21 my pad.
22 Would you go ask my secretary where my pad is?
23 Oh, here it is right here. She must have
24 brought it in.
25 THE BAILIFF: No, I brought it in.
1499
1 THE COURT: Thank you.
2 But not my little one.
3 MR. HOWIE: The list of concerns that was
4 basically the agenda for the March 28th meeting.
5 THE COURT: Oh, yes.
6 MR. HOWIE: I have contacted Mr. Jonas's office
7 and been informed that he is out for the week but
8 monitoring his voicemail. I've left a detailed
9 voicemail message requesting that he fax the list to
10 my office. I will keep the court and plaintiff and
11 all parties advised of my progress on that.
12 THE COURT: Thank you.
13 MR. HOWIE: Next, your Honor, I've been very
14 deliberate about my contacts with Mr. Minton while
15 he's been testifying. I am specifically requesting
16 permission of the court to talk to Mr. Minton on the
17 subject of withdrawing a Fifth Amendment privilege
18 as to a particular area of his testimony. That
19 necessarily involves discussing that aspect -- that
20 small aspect of his testimony. With the permission
21 of the court, at our first available break, I would
22 like to do that.
23 THE COURT: I see no problem with that.
24 Mr. Dandar? Do you have a problem with that?
25 MR. DANDAR: No problem.
1500
1 THE COURT: Does the plaintiff -- the defendant
2 have any problem with that?
3 MR. WEINBERG: No, your Honor.
4 THE COURT: Mr. Fugate?
5 MR. FUGATE: No.
6 THE COURT: That would be fine.
7 MR. HOWIE: Thank you, your Honor. Nothing
8 further.
9 THE COURT: Anything else?
10 Oh, I have two things, that -- request for
11 judicial notice -- I can't even find the one, but I
12 did take the one home on the transcript. And I know
13 there's one in this pile somewhere to take judicial
14 notice of a Martindale-Hubbell listing of
15 Ms. Yingling. So those -- as I said, I can't find
16 those, but I know that it's here.
17 MR. LIEBERMAN: Let me address those --
18 THE COURT: Okay.
19 MR. LIEBERMAN: -- your Honor.
20 First on the motion for judicial notice with
21 respect to this transcript, two brief points:
22 First and I think most interesting is that the
23 transcript shows, contrary to, I think,
24 representations that I think were made to your
25 Honor, that the judge in this case denied the motion
1501
1 for terminating sanctions within an hour, I think,
2 is the way it was put. In fact, he didn't deny it
3 at all, and he set it for an evidentiary hearing.
4 If your Honor would look at --
5 THE COURT: No, I've read it.
6 MR. LIEBERMAN: -- pages 48, 49 and 50.
7 Other than that, I'm not sure of the relevance
8 of it. If your Honor wants to consider it, we don't
9 have a particular objection. If your Honor -- I
10 don't think it's relevant. But that's what we have
11 to say about that.
12 THE COURT: Okay. Let's take them up one at a
13 time, if you're done with that.
14 Mr. Dandar? That's -- I did read this. And
15 when I got done, I thought to myself, "Well, what
16 happened?" Apparently there was to be another
17 hearing.
18 MR. DANDAR: They -- their -- their -- the
19 Church of Scientology's request to have that
20 terminating sanctions be heard first before the
21 final hearing was denied.
22 THE COURT: Was denied. Yeah. I mean, I read
23 this thing, so I know what it said.
24 MR. DANDAR: The stay was denied. So they were
25 going to do it all together at the final hearing.
1502
1 THE COURT: Right.
2 MR. DANDAR: And then the Church of Scientology
3 of California paid in the amount of the judgment,
4 and the final hearing was cancelled or postponed.
5 THE COURT: Okay.
6 MR. DANDAR: In that transcript, however, it
7 shows that they used the Stacy Brooks affidavit
8 filed in this case to be used in the Wollersheim
9 case, which goes to relevance as to the negotiations
10 between Mr. Minton, Ms. Brooks and the Church of
11 Scientology, that not only just concerned this case
12 but also concerned the Wollersheim case. It also
13 supports Mr. Leipold's testimony and Mr. Leipold's
14 letter to me explaining his conversations with
15 Ms. Brooks and Mr. Minton on trying to get the
16 Wollersheim case dismissed.
17 Her affidavit withdrawn; and Mr. Prince's
18 affidavit/declaration withdrawn.
19 THE COURT: Okay.
20 MR. DANDAR: It also --
21 THE COURT: Wait a second. Let me ask you a
22 question.
23 Is it judicial notice we take? I mean, for
24 heaven's sakes, I've taken a lot of stuff here into
25 evidence based on the fact that it might have some
1503
1 bearing on this and it seemed reliable, even though
2 it may be hearsay or otherwise. We've just accepted
3 a lot of stuff for this hearing. So I don't know if
4 I need to take judicial notice of it. I don't think
5 that's proper.
6 But I do think that it might have some value.
7 And therefore, without strenuous objection, I'll
8 receive it. Not as judicial notice, just as an --
9 an exhibit.
10 MR. LIEBERMAN: Right.
11 My only point, your Honor, was that this was
12 just mischaracterized to the court as to what
13 happened, and I just wanted to emphasize that.
14 THE COURT: Well, it -- it certainly was
15 shorter than ours. But it never occurred,
16 apparently.
17 MR. LIEBERMAN: It never occurred.
18 THE COURT: That's right. I don't know if this
19 argument was much longer than the one that you and I
20 had, but we did go on to have the hearing, and then
21 this judge apparently didn't have to, so --
22 MR. LIEBERMAN: That's right.
23 MR. WEINBERG: Was there a number on that one?
24 THE COURT: No. It was requested to take
25 judicial notice. So why don't you just make it your
1504
1 next exhibit?
2 MR. DANDAR: All right. You want to use one of
3 those numbers that we withdrew?
4 THE COURT: That would be all right.
5 MR. DANDAR: I don't know if the clerk wants to
6 do that.
7 MR. WEINBERG: Judge, why don't you just go to
8 the next number?
9 THE COURT: Yeah. Go to the next number.
10 This is mine. Says "judge's copy."
11 I've got a lot of exhibits, by the way, that
12 don't have numbers on them. If I ever had to refer
13 to these, I wouldn't have a clue.
14 What number?
15 THE CLERK: 77.
16 MR. DANDAR: And I will do that, Judge. I just
17 don't have a copy available at this time.
18 THE COURT: Okay.
19 MR. DANDAR: We'll make a copy.
20 MR. WEINBERG: So that's the Wollersheim
21 transcript, that's what we'll call it?
22 THE COURT: Let's see. Yeah. That's a good
23 thing to call it.
24 It says -- yes. The transcript says, Lawrence
25 Dominic Wollersheim versus Church of Scientology of
1505
1 California. That transcript will be received as
2 a -- an exhibit, Number 77.
3 Okay. The next -- I can't put my hands on, but
4 I remember looking at it --
5 MR. DANDAR: I do have the Monique Yingling CD
6 or --
7 THE COURT: It was -- it was the
8 Martindale-Hubbell --
9 MR. DANDAR: Yeah. I have that on my computer.
10 THE COURT: Okay.
11 MR. LIEBERMAN: Again, your Honor, I don't know
12 whether it's -- I've never heard of taking judicial
13 notice of a Martindale-Hubbell entry, and I guess I
14 would oppose it on that ground.
15 I do want to point out, however, for the
16 record -- and this can be inquired of at the
17 appropriate time, Ms. Yingling acts as -- as
18 corporate counsel for the Church of Scientology
19 International on a global basis, on an international
20 basis. She is not counsel, personal counsel or
21 otherwise, for Mr. Miscavige.
22 THE COURT: Okay. But she is counsel -- tell
23 me again -- for the church?
24 MR. LIEBERMAN: Church of Scientology
25 International, which is the mother church.
1506
1 THE COURT: Okay.
2 MR. DANDAR: I think her husband may serve as
3 Mr. Miscavige's personal counsel.
4 THE COURT: I don't need to know about him.
5 MR. LIEBERMAN: I don't think that Mr. Dandar
6 has any information about that.
7 MR. DANDAR: I said, "I think."
8 MR. LIEBERMAN: Well, I don't think that kind
9 of speculation, your Honor, should be made on the
10 record.
11 THE COURT: All right. Ms. Yingling --
12 whatever that exhibit is, I won't take judicial
13 notice of it, again. But apparently it would
14 have -- you know, it's hearsay, but it's probably
15 reliable. Somebody usually pays for that to be put
16 in Martindale-Hubbell, and I wouldn't assume they'd
17 want whatever they pay for to be inaccurate, and so
18 I would assume therefore it's reliable, and will be
19 received as the next exhibit.
20 That would be Number 78.
21 Did you already give that to the clerk?
22 MR. DANDAR: I thought I did.
23 THE COURT: Probably as a request to take
24 judicial notice.
25 MR. DANDAR: Yes.
1507
1 THE COURT: Okay. So why don't you just give a
2 copy of this to the clerk?
3 MR. DANDAR: All right. Here we go. And
4 here's counsel's copy.
5 MR. FUGATE: Judge, I just gave a copy to
6 Mr. Dandar -- I shouldn't say I did, but -- I did
7 cause the time line to be put together, with the
8 orders that go with it, on the -- Mr. Minton and the
9 orders that went in order that we were referring to
10 some of -- those are all the orders, all of the
11 issues. And I've got it tabbed out, although I
12 think all of it is actually in the record. But
13 that's just what we said we would provide to you.
14 THE COURT: Oh, okay.
15 MR. FUGATE: I gave a copy to Mr. Dandar and I
16 gave a copy to Mr. Minton.
17 THE COURT: I looked at the -- at the orders
18 that were provided yesterday, and that gave me some
19 insight as to what was happening up in Clearwater.
20 MR. FUGATE: Well, I think -- and in this case,
21 you always preface with "I think" -- I think that is
22 the compilation of the orders in this case, the
23 contempt proceedings in this case, and the orders --
24 operative orders that Mr. Minton, I believe, has
25 been testifying about in the breach case, all
1508
1 compiled, and then brought up to the current date,
2 which is the purpose of the time line.
3 And what I did in there is have each of the
4 orders or each of the -- the motions that it refers
5 to just tabbed in there. You can refer to it if you
6 need it, if you want --
7 THE COURT: Okay.
8 MR. FUGATE: -- but it's there.
9 THE COURT: Mr. Howie, you might want to
10 present something on the hearing that we had on
11 April the 5th, the -- I don't remember how that was
12 being presented to me. Was that being presented to
13 me on the -- on an order to show cause filed by the
14 defendant?
15 MR. MOXON: That's correct, your Honor.
16 THE COURT: That's right. 'Cause it was not
17 sworn to.
18 MR. MOXON: Right. Remember we had an earlier
19 hearing, where it was alternative criminal or civil,
20 and the court indicated it should be heard as a
21 criminal --
22 THE COURT: Right.
23 MR. MOXON: -- so we scheduled it for a
24 criminal OTC.
25 THE COURT: And what I learned, I can do an
1509
1 order to show cause, but if you do the order to show
2 cause, it has to be filed under oath. We did not
3 know that, either one of us, obviously. You might
4 know -- it probably would be relevant to your
5 client. It is not necessarily relevant to this
6 case. We all know what the outcome was. But for
7 your client's benefit -- I don't know if you want to
8 do something or not. But if you do, prepare an
9 order, and I'll take a look at it.
10 MR. HOWIE: Let me -- let me review that and
11 see what I need to do on it.
12 THE COURT: Okay. It frankly could be a fairly
13 simple order. "Came on to be heard on the
14 defendant's motion for order to show cause," at the
15 conclusions of which you basically in essence moved
16 for a directed verdict and it was granted.
17 MR. HOWIE: It was in fact JOA argument under
18 the rules of criminal procedure.
19 THE COURT: Right. Yes, it was.
20 And for all intents and purposes, I could enter
21 then a finding of not guilty based on the fact that
22 it was a criminal proceeding, it was considered as a
23 criminal proceeding, I treated it as a criminal
24 proceeding, and therefore, at the end of the JOA, he
25 was not guilty of indirect criminal contempt, okay?
1510
1 That's -- you want to put something together like
2 that, I'll sign it.
3 MR. HOWIE: All right.
4 THE COURT: Is that all of our business for the
5 morning?
6 Okay. All right, Mr. Minton, you want to
7 resume the stand?
8 THE WITNESS: Yes, your Honor.
9 I'm hoping that perhaps you can finish with
10 your examination today.
11 MR. DANDAR: I would love to.
12 THE COURT: Well, don't you think you can?
13 MR. DANDAR: I hope so.
14 THE COURT: Okay.
15 MR. DANDAR: I'd like to do it this morning,
16 actually.
17 THE COURT: Well, I would -- that would make me
18 even happier.
19 MR. DANDAR: And I like it when you're happy.
20 THE COURT: Well, good.
21 THE WITNESS: Your Honor, if I could just
22 address these two matters you asked me to look at
23 last night?
24 THE COURT: Yes.
25 THE WITNESS: These were --
1511
1 THE COURT: Two speeches.
2 THE WITNESS: -- the two speeches, one from
3 April 19th, 1998, and the other February the 12th,
4 1999.
5 THE COURT: Let me find those, 'cause I do
6 have -- I did take it home last night. Give me just
7 a second.
8 MR. DANDAR: Judge, while you're looking for
9 that, the other thing that was supposed to happen
10 today, I believe, is that the defense was supposed
11 to produce the actual lists of cases that Mr. Rosen
12 used on March 28th.
13 THE COURT: Well, let's get through this. I
14 don't know that I gave them a deadline on that.
15 MR. WEINBERG: Well, Mr. Rosen, I think, is
16 traveling, so we haven't been able to get that.
17 THE COURT: Yeah. I noticed Mr. Rosen said he
18 was in Florida. I suspect he must have been at the
19 beaches or something, because he wasn't here.
20 Certainly he implied to that judge out there that he
21 was here at this proceeding and knew what was going
22 on, but he must have had other plans.
23 MR. DANDAR: And he also mentioned to that
24 judge that Dan Leipold was my co-counsel.
25 THE COURT: Yes, I noticed that too. He may
1512
1 have once upon a time -- I did see one pleading once
2 upon a time where he was shown as something.
3 MR. DANDAR: No. Not as co-counsel.
4 THE COURT: Well, I don't know what it was, but
5 he was shown as something here in this proceeding.
6 I am not -- I am assuming he is not co-counsel; that
7 your co-counsel is Mr. Lirot, and that's the way
8 I'm -- I'm not, for any purpose, in this -- in this
9 hearing or this trial, considering Mr. Leipold as
10 co-counsel with Mr. Dandar. He may have entered a
11 special appearance for something at one time, but
12 he's not -- I've never seen the man; I wouldn't know
13 him if he walked in the door, and therefore don't --
14 I don't want to hear it.
15 MR. DANDAR: He was the attorney --
16 THE COURT: Here.
17 MR. DANDAR: He was the attorney for LMT at
18 their first deposition, and he was also a witness
19 listed by me, partially deposed or deposed by
20 Mr. Hertzberg, and then I went through him as a
21 witness.
22 THE COURT: I'll be honest, Mr. Dandar, I
23 thought in something that I read I saw his name on
24 something as co-counsel. I could be wrong. I can't
25 swear to that. I could absolutely be wrong.
1513
1 But he's not. In other words, if I did see
2 something, it was on one pleading; he's --
3 Oh, no. Maybe it wasn't Mr. Leipold. It was
4 Mr. --
5 MR. DANDAR: Greene.
6 THE COURT: Mr. Greene.
7 MR. DANDAR: Yes.
8 THE COURT: So I'm wrong. I'm sorry. I did
9 not see Mr. Leipold on anything in this case, but I
10 did see Mr. Greene listed as co-counsel in
11 something. And I'm assuming he's not co-counsel
12 either.
13 MR. DANDAR: No. He just assisted in the
14 religiosity memorandum of law.
15 THE COURT: Okay.
16 MR. DANDAR: His name appears there.
17 THE COURT: Yes. I did notice that Mr. Leipold
18 was called co-counsel. And probably neither here
19 nor there, since that issue never had to be proven
20 before the judge.
21 Okay.
22 THE WITNESS: I'm sorry. What I was going to
23 say is --
24 THE COURT: I have them right here.
25 THE WITNESS: -- those were the speeches that I
1514
1 gave at that time. And you know, those were true
2 and accurate beliefs of mine at that time, pursuant
3 to what I said.
4 THE COURT: Yeah. In particular, I noticed
5 last night that the one memorandum that more or less
6 detailed some of what you perceived to be the
7 harassment that you were suffering from the Church
8 of Scientology, based on your --
9 THE WITNESS: That's the '98 one.
10 THE COURT: Yes.
11 THE WITNESS: Yes.
12 THE COURT: -- and being critical -- I also
13 noticed that when I read Ms. Brooks' time line, that
14 this is somewhat in order with what her time line
15 reflects. If you want to call it a time line. I
16 think that's what she called it.
17 THE WITNESS: Right.
18 THE COURT: As you sit here today, are these
19 things true?
20 THE WITNESS: Uh --
21 THE COURT: I mean, did this happen?
22 THE WITNESS: The events that I described, you
23 know, that was the way that I believed they were
24 happening at the time.
25 THE COURT: Well, this isn't really -- this
1515
1 isn't speaking of a matter of belief of whether it's
2 harassment or not. Could be whether it was in fact
3 anybody from the Church of Scientology or not.
4 But those things that you described in here --
5 THE WITNESS: Are true events.
6 THE COURT: -- are true.
7 Okay.
8 THE WITNESS: I mean, I have discussed some of
9 those events with Mr. Rinder to find out whether
10 they in fact were -- themselves did some of these
11 things.
12 THE COURT: But those things did occur.
13 THE WITNESS: They did occur.
14 THE COURT: Okay. You just -- as I said,
15 obviously, it was not proved --
16 THE WITNESS: No.
17 THE COURT: -- but I presume on some of the
18 pickets -- I don't know if you knew any of those
19 people or not, or where they came from. But I'm not
20 assuming that this was done, as a fact, by the
21 Church of Scientology or they authorized it or
22 anything of the sort. But it was your perception
23 and -- but the events occurred.
24 THE WITNESS: That's correct. They did occur
25 as described here.
1516
1 THE COURT: All right.
2 BY MR. DANDAR:
3 Q Did Mr. Rinder ever affirm, yes, indeed, the
4 Church of Scientology was responsible for those events that
5 you described in these two speeches?
6 A We didn't -- well, I think there was just events
7 in one speech there. I'm not sure that there were in both.
8 But the one thing of particular concern involved
9 following my children -- I didn't bring this up, but
10 Mr. Rinder brought it up -- that -- and he stated to me
11 that -- that there was no way that the Church of Scientology
12 was involved in that; that nobody had given any instructions
13 for that to happen. He didn't know that it had happened.
14 You know, if it was somebody else, it didn't have anything
15 to do with them. I mean, that's what he told me.
16 Q Did he tell you that anything that happened to
17 you, your wife or children, that had anything to do with the
18 Church of Scientology, he would have known about it?
19 A No. He never said that.
20 Q Well, then how can he deny that anyone followed
21 your children?
22 MR. FUGATE: Excuse me, your Honor, I object to
23 that as argumentative.
24 THE COURT: Sustained.
25
1517
1 BY MR. DANDAR:
2 Q How did he explain it to you, that if he didn't
3 know about it, it wasn't from the Church of Scientology?
4 A I don't know that he explained it. He just tried
5 to assure me that that didn't happen, from -- that whoever
6 this person was, you know, in this black leather jacket that
7 jumped into the car and sped down the one-way street the
8 wrong way and turned into another -- he said that was --
9 that was not somebody from Scientology, somebody who was
10 authorized by Scientology. You know -- I mean, he said,
11 "Look --" and I said, "Well, you know, but it happened. I
12 mean, I was there. I saw somebody, you know." His
13 explanation was that it had to be a coincidence.
14 Q This is in Boston at your townhouse?
15 A Yes.
16 Q How about the leafletting in the resort where you,
17 your wife and children went to in the Caribbean?
18 A We never discussed that.
19 Q How about the -- the person who leafletted or
20 provided pamphlets to one of your daughter's -- either a
21 neighborhood or a friend on Long Island, when she flew to
22 meet a friend for the weekend or something like that? Do
23 you recall what I'm talking about?
24 A I do, but I don't think anyone provided something
25 to my daughter.
1518
1 Q Well, what happened? I'm not getting it right, I
2 know.
3 A Well, it was -- you know, it was -- what had
4 happened is that my daughter had flown down to Long Island
5 to stay for a week, I think, with a friend of hers who --
6 from Cambridge, Massachusetts. And the house -- you know,
7 the house down there was in her mother's name in Long
8 Island, her maiden name. And according to this woman, that
9 was the only place that she had any connection to her maiden
10 name, was this house that she had had for some years in Long
11 Island.
12 And she received -- the woman who had the house on
13 Long Island, who lived in Cambridge with her husband, you
14 know, received mail, I believe, addressed to her house in
15 Long Island, using her maiden name, which got forwarded to
16 her house in Cambridge.
17 Q And what was in the mail? What did it say?
18 A I don't remember what it was. They were fliers of
19 some sort.
20 Q Fliers about you being a bigot or something like
21 that?
22 A You know, I presume. I don't -- I don't know
23 exactly.
24 Q When was this?
25 A I think, you know, you'd have to help me, with the
1519
1 time line there.
2 Q It's in your time line, right?
3 A Yeah. I believe it's in there, yes.
4 Q Okay. And whatever it was that was sent to this
5 lady in her maiden name caused you to believe that it was
6 from the Church of Scientology.
7 A Yes.
8 Q All right. It was similar to other things that
9 they left around wherever they leafletted against you.
10 A Right. I mean, there was no question in my mind
11 that the document came from Scientology. I mean, it didn't
12 have, you know, "Church of Scientology Boston" on the
13 bottom, but some of them did.
14 But I think they stopped doing that fairly early
15 on and just made them sort of anonymous.
16 Q During your many conferences with Mr. Rinder or
17 anyone else from the Church of Scientology, did any of them
18 say to you, "Oh, yeah. That was done to you, Mr. Minton.
19 It was done by a different corporation or a different org,
20 and we didn't know they were doing that"?
21 A No. There was never any statement like that. I
22 mean, you know, basically, the -- you know, in terms of
23 anything we touched on specifically in that time line, the
24 thing that was of most concern to Mr. Rinder was this thing
25 about following the children. You know, we -- we agreed
1520
1 with each other that we had both done a lot of nasty things
2 towards each other and there were, you know, a few of those
3 incidents were talked about.
4 Q Did you follow Mr. Rinder's wife or children?
5 A Not to my knowledge.
6 Q Did you picket their home?
7 A Well, you know, I think the churches believe that
8 the Ft. Harrison was home to Scientologists. And you know,
9 this is -- and this is, you know, something they've said for
10 a long time, which is how they've justified picketing other
11 people's home.
12 Q Do staff of the Church of Scientology live in the
13 Ft. Harrison Hotel?
14 A No. But the members of the church who come and
15 stay there.
16 Q Did you ever ask Mr. Rinder how they figured out
17 that your daughter got on an airplane in Boston and flew to
18 Long Island and they knew what house she was staying at?
19 A As I said, that one was not discussed. The
20 discussion of following the children in general was
21 discussed. And you know, he assured me that that was not
22 something that they had anything to do with.
23 Q Well, would you disagree with him -- because you
24 know what happened to your daughter in Long Island and the
25 neighbor that went to your neighbor under her maiden name.
1521
1 A You know, look, there were a lot of things in that
2 time line that, you know, I have very strong suspicions that
3 they had something to do with. And you know, we haven't --
4 discussed -- you know, we haven't gone through this time
5 line.
6 THE COURT: The truth of the matter,
7 Mr. Dandar, this stuff's in evidence. I think you
8 can just get back to your meeting.
9 MR. DANDAR: Okay.
10 THE COURT: Whatever -- the last meeting you
11 were addressing.
12 MR. DANDAR: But I do have a question --
13 THE COURT: All right.
14 MR. DANDAR: I just -- I just --
15 BY MR. DANDAR:
16 Q Yesterday you said you couldn't tell us why you
17 paid another hundred thousand dollars to Mr. Armstrong to
18 pay you back the loan that you gave him. Now, what is the
19 reason why you did that?
20 A I'm going to assert my Fifth Amendment privilege.
21 Q And did you pay Mr. Armstrong, the first time,
22 with a UBS check?
23 A No.
24 Q It was a private, personal check?
25 A Yes.
1522
1 Q All right.
2 A In two parts.
3 Q Right. One went to his lawyer, one went to him?
4 A Right.
5 Q And did you give him money in the form of a check
6 to pay you back with a UBS check?
7 A I believe it was.
8 Q All right. And are you going to plead the Fifth
9 as to the identity of the financial institution that was the
10 source of those funds?
11 A Yes, I will.
12 Q All right. Okay. One more thing: Isn't it true
13 that in your deposition, you testified, I believe, in
14 September of '01 -- and I'll pull it out if you forget --
15 that the Church of Scientology had gone to your accountant's
16 office, is that right?
17 A Yes. That -- that happened sometime in '99 or
18 2000.
19 Q Do you have any idea how the Church of Scientology
20 discovered the identity of your private accountant?
21 A Well, he -- he was -- he was the corporate
22 accountant as well, and I presume they made the connection
23 that way. Or maybe they followed me to his office. I don't
24 know.
25 Q What -- what corporation? LMT?
1523
1 A No. The -- the corporations that I had been
2 involved with prior to 1993.
3 Q And do you know if any of those public documents
4 involving public corporations -- even if they're private,
5 it's -- did they disclose the name of the accountant?
6 A He was -- he was on some public documents. I'm
7 aware of that.
8 Q As your accountant?
9 A I believe so.
10 THE COURT: Was he a CPA?
11 THE WITNESS: He was.
12 BY MR. DANDAR:
13 Q And what's his name?
14 A Barry Beck.
15 Q Where is he located?
16 THE COURT: Why do we need to know that?
17 MR. DANDAR: I don't know. I just need to know
18 if the physical --
19 THE COURT: I mean, if you want to ask him -- I
20 mean, who knows where this transcript will go?
21 Maybe Mr. Beck wouldn't care. Maybe he'll be happy
22 if he gets more business.
23 MR. DANDAR: Well, he's a CPA. I'm sure he's
24 in the Yellow Pages.
25 THE COURT: All right. Go ahead.
1524
1 BY MR. DANDAR:
2 Q What city and state?
3 A Boston --
4 Q All right.
5 A -- Massachusetts.
6 Q And how did you know that they had gone to him?
7 A I believe he told me.
8 THE COURT: What was his name again?
9 THE WITNESS: Barry Beck.
10 BY MR. DANDAR:
11 Q What has the Church of Scientology, in your
12 meetings with them, told you about me?
13 A Excuse me?
14 Q What has the Church of Scientology, in your
15 meetings beginning March 28th -- what have they told you
16 about me?
17 A Well, they told me that sometime in 1998 you were
18 in financial difficulties. I -- I think -- in fact, I think
19 this had to do with some motion you made, and a rule 11
20 sanction. I don't remember the details of it, but -- where
21 you had stated you were about to file bankruptcy. That's
22 one thing.
23 They told me that you had been involved in
24 purchasing properties over the last few years. I think they
25 mentioned four properties. One was a warehouse in Odessa.
1525
1 Q That 200,000-square-foot warehouse that Mr. Rosen
2 questioned me about in front of Judge Baird?
3 A They never mentioned that size. It was a
4 warehouse. They didn't say --
5 Q Do you know that's totally false, by the way?
6 THE COURT: Well, now, we don't need testimony
7 from you.
8 MR. DANDAR: No, no --
9 THE COURT: This is a time for you --
10 BY MR. DANDAR:
11 Q Did they prove it to you? Did they prove to you
12 that I purchased a warehouse in Odessa?
13 A No.
14 Q Okay. What else did they --
15 A You just asked me what they told me.
16 Q Go ahead.
17 A They -- you know, they weren't trying to prove
18 anything to me.
19 Q Okay.
20 A They told me that you had purchased a vacation
21 home in North Carolina, and that you had purchased two
22 homes, one for your mother and one for you, and that there
23 was -- some of these properties -- I think that's near
24 Odessa or somewhere in that vicinity north of Tampa, I
25 believe -- and that some of these things you put into other
1526
1 family members' names and then transferred them from one
2 family member to another and --
3 I think those are the --
4 Well, I -- the other thing that they -- the other
5 thing that they said is that they found it extraordinary,
6 given your posture in the courtroom, especially whenever the
7 Church of Scientology did something that you considered to
8 be wild and outrageous, you know, that they considered that
9 given what you had been involved in in this case, that --
10 that it's just beyond their ability to comprehend how you
11 could come into the courtroom and accuse them of -- you
12 know, for example, accusing Mr. Fugate of organizing a
13 break-in of your office over on Cypress Street. You know,
14 they -- they just couldn't believe that you would come into
15 court with these kind of things after what -- what I told
16 them you were involved in in this case.
17 Q What did -- I don't understand that. What did you
18 tell them that caused them to not be able to believe that I
19 thought somebody from the Church of Scientology had broke
20 into my office and removed documents?
21 A Well --
22 THE COURT: Well, I suspect -- I suspect,
23 Counselor, what he told them about is the same thing
24 he's told us that he's told them about, which are
25 the three instances, all of which purportedly
1527
1 involve you. That's what he has told us that he has
2 told them about. I mean, if there's something
3 beyond that --
4 THE WITNESS: That's what I'm talking about,
5 your Honor.
6 MR. DANDAR: All right. So I understand.
7 BY MR. DANDAR:
8 Q Okay. So what else did they say about me?
9 A I think they used the term that you were a menace
10 to society.
11 Q Which society? Scientology?
12 A No. In terms of -- of an attorney behaving in the
13 manner in which I've alleged you behaved. You know, I
14 mean -- I remember, you know -- I think it was
15 Ms. Yingling -- I mean, she was just astonished.
16 Q Astonished about what?
17 A Astonished that an attorney would be behaving in a
18 manner that I've alleged you behaved.
19 And I remember Mr. Rinder saying, you know, "This
20 man is a menace to society. I can't believe he has done
21 this, and has the audacity come into this courtroom and
22 alleged every outrageous allegation that he could possibly
23 do against the Church of Scientology." Those were the basic
24 things that they said.
25 Q Did they show you what Scientology calls a DA
1528
1 pack, dead agencing -- agenting -- agenting pack?
2 THE COURT: A what?
3 BY MR. DANDAR:
4 Q Dead agent pack on me.
5 A No. They never did.
6 Q Who's the one that told you I bought all this
7 property?
8 A I believe it was Mr. Rinder.
9 Q Okay. Did he show you anything?
10 A I think he showed me a picture of one of these
11 properties. I don't know which one.
12 Q Show you a picture of a warehouse?
13 A I don't know whether it was a warehouse or not.
14 Q Okay. Show you deeds?
15 A No.
16 Q Did he tell you that your money was used to buy
17 all this property?
18 A He implied that. He didn't say it.
19 Q Did that get you upset?
20 A I was already upset.
21 Q Did it get you more upset?
22 A Not really at that stage. I was pretty -- pretty
23 disappointed in you already.
24 Q This was what date?
25 A I don't remember when that was.
1529
1 Q Well, was it April the 6th or the 7th?
2 A No. It was later than that. Sometime later than
3 that. I don't know when. Some -- I think it was in April.
4 Q Okay. And just so -- before we get to that
5 meeting on -- we finished April 6th, I believe.
6 You had another meeting on April 7th, right?
7 A I don't remember whether we did on -- that was a
8 Sunday. I don't know whether we had a meeting that day or
9 not.
10 MR. FUGATE: Your Honor, that was asked and
11 answered early on by Mr. Minton.
12 THE COURT: You know, the truth of the matter
13 is, I thought yesterday he said they met on the 6th
14 and the 7th, and so I was thinking the next day
15 after the 6th was the 7th. So I'm only telling you
16 that I've decided that perhaps I'm suffering from
17 Alzheimer's. I can remember phone numbers from 20
18 years ago but I couldn't tell you the address that
19 I'm moving to. So I can't remember whether he did
20 or not. I can remember yesterday --
21 MR. FUGATE: I didn't remember yesterday. I
22 can remember from earlier --
23 THE COURT: Well, then, you and I are both
24 suffering from Alzheimer's. Early, hopefully.
25 A I tend to -- my belief is, and I can't swear to
1530
1 this, but I believe we didn't meet that day.
2 BY MR. DANDAR:
3 Q Okay.
4 A And the reason, I believe, is that because
5 Mr. Jonas was pretty upset with me that day.
6 Q Why?
7 A About having gone in and told them about
8 inaccurate statements made in this case.
9 Q When you told them about what you're calling
10 inaccurate statements on April the 6th, you had no idea what
11 they were going to do with that information, did you?
12 A I didn't -- I didn't really know.
13 Q They could have went to the prosecutor, had you
14 arrested for perjury, as far as you know. Then.
15 A Well, my --
16 Q On a contempt --
17 A -- you know, my belief was that, you know, as they
18 had said, that we needed to tell the truth or set the record
19 straight with respect to these Florida cases; that they
20 wouldn't do that.
21 Q They also told you that you had to set the record
22 straight in the Wollersheim case, though, didn't they?
23 THE COURT: I'm sorry, Mr. Minton. I hadn't
24 heard that before. Did you indicate they had said
25 if you set the record straight they wouldn't do
1531
1 that? Did you have that discussion with them?
2 THE WITNESS: I'm sorry. I didn't follow that.
3 THE COURT: I thought what you just said was
4 you believed them when they said that --
5 THE WITNESS: No. I believed that.
6 THE COURT: You believed.
7 THE WITNESS: I didn't say that they said that.
8 THE COURT: I got you.
9 Thank you for clearing that up.
10 BY MR. DANDAR:
11 Q The reason you went to see Mr. Rinder on April the
12 6th is because you believed, based upon your meeting with
13 him in New York City a week before, that you had to go in
14 there and, quote, set the record straight before they would
15 even consider talking about a global settlement, correct?
16 MR. FUGATE: Asked and answered, your Honor.
17 THE COURT: I think it has been.
18 MR. DANDAR: That's a predicate.
19 THE COURT: All right.
20 BY MR. DANDAR:
21 Q Correct?
22 THE COURT: Now, if he answers it differently,
23 we're going to have to go through it again.
24 A Yeah. That's correct.
25 MR. FUGATE: I was going to say --
1532
1 A That's correct.
2 THE COURT: Okay.
3 A That was my belief.
4 BY MR. DANDAR:
5 Q And in reference to a global settlement, no one
6 even talked about the terms of that yet, is that right?
7 A That's correct.
8 Q So you had no idea if they were going to just let
9 you walk away if you got the McPherson case dismissed, or
10 they were going to demand $35 million from you, for all the
11 money you cost them.
12 A Well, you know, just -- just to clarify what you
13 said about getting the McPherson case dismissed, that --
14 that was not what they asked. They asked to tell the truth
15 and to set the record straight about the Florida cases.
16 Mr. Rinder in New York had said that he believed, by setting
17 the record straight, that the case would get dismissed.
18 Q All right. And we've already gone through that.
19 I'm not going to go back through what your attorney said.
20 A Okay. Well, you just characterized it differently
21 than what I previously testified to and I just wanted to
22 correct that impression.
23 Q Okay. Now, on -- did you meet with anyone from
24 the Church of Scientology before your deposition on
25 April 8th?
1533
1 A I met with Mr. Rinder and Ms. Yingling on the 6th.
2 Q Well, I'm sorry. From the 6th to the 7th, before
3 the commencement of your deposition, did you meet with
4 anyone from the Church of Scientology?
5 A Assuming that I'm correct that there wasn't a
6 meeting on the 7th, we did not.
7 Q Did you receive any paperwork from the Church of
8 Scientology during that time?
9 A No. Not -- not -- not until after the hearing.
10 Q Did you --
11 A On the --
12 Q -- talk to anybody over the phone or during that
13 time?
14 A I don't believe so.
15 Q Okay. Now, Mr. Jonas came in on Sunday the 7th,
16 right?
17 A I think he came in on Monday morning.
18 Q Okay. When did he express to you that he was
19 upset with you because you met with Mr. Rinder without him
20 knowing about it?
21 A On the phone. Either that Saturday night or
22 Sunday.
23 Q Okay.
24 A If -- in -- I'm just trying to think on that
25 Sunday.
1534
1 Yeah. In fact --
2 Well, if I could just get out my little calendar
3 because --
4 Q Sure.
5 A -- I've got a couple of notes --
6 THE WITNESS: I'm sorry, your Honor.
7 THE COURT: That's all right.
8 THE WITNESS: My calendar is in this bag that
9 Ms. Brooks has.
10 THE COURT: Sure. You can go get it.
11 THE WITNESS: Can I go get it?
12 THE COURT: Yes, indeed.
13 THE WITNESS: Sorry, your Honor.
14 THE COURT: That's all right.
15 A The -- yeah. The Sunday was the -- just to --
16 Wait a minute.
17 No, no. That's -- it's the next week I'm thinking
18 about.
19 According to this --
20 And I've got to tell you that this is not a
21 contemporaneous calendar. I purchased this -- I've still
22 got the receipt here -- on the 15th of May. And I wanted to
23 make note of some of these things, so when this thing came
24 up, that I could refer to it.
25 I don't show that I had a meeting on that Sunday.
1535
1 THE COURT: When you purchased this, did you
2 then go back and try to reconstruct when you had
3 met --
4 THE WITNESS: Yes.
5 THE COURT: -- and those types of things?
6 THE WITNESS: Yes, your Honor.
7 BY MR. DANDAR:
8 Q Did you have an old calendar?
9 A I didn't. This -- I don't normally use a
10 calendar. But just to get these -- some of these --
11 Q Okay.
12 A -- dates down --
13 Q All right.
14 A -- I did this.
15 Q So the only person you talked to, outside of
16 Ms. Brooks, I would assume, is this Mr. Jonas, between the
17 April 6th end of meeting to the beginning of your deposition
18 on April 8th. Would that be correct?
19 A No. I'm sure I spoke with Mr. Howie as well.
20 Q I'm sorry. Mr. Howie. Okay.
21 And was Mr. Jonas and Mr. Howie at your deposition
22 on April 8th?
23 A Yes.
24 Q Okay. And --
25 THE COURT: Can I ask you a question?
1536
1 THE WITNESS: Sure.
2 THE COURT: There's not a thing wrong with
3 having two lawyers or six lawyers or however many
4 lawyers you want. Was there some reason why you
5 had -- when you had Mr. Howie here in Florida, in
6 St. Petersburg or Clearwater representing you, that
7 Mr. Jonas also -- you wanted Mr. Jonas here as well?
8 Is there --
9 THE WITNESS: Yes.
10 THE COURT: -- some particular reason?
11 THE WITNESS: There was, your Honor.
12 THE COURT: Okay.
13 THE WITNESS: Having discussed this with
14 Mr. Howie on a number of occasions, he wasn't as
15 familiar with the -- the other cases; for example,
16 the European stuff or the Wollersheim thing, for
17 that matter. And -- you know, so he didn't have --
18 Mr. Howie explained that his perspective was more
19 limited to the things he --
20 THE COURT: You got to be careful talking about
21 what he told you about, 'cause --
22 THE WITNESS: Okay.
23 THE COURT: -- you've preserved the
24 attorney-client privilege.
25 But in general, Mr. Jonas had knowledge of
1537
1 certain litigation that you thought might be
2 involved, might be discussed, and Mr. Jonas knew
3 that; Mr. Howie did not.
4 THE WITNESS: That's right.
5 THE COURT: And that's that litigation against
6 the church that you indicated the other day,
7 something in France; something in Germany, was it?
8 THE WITNESS: Right.
9 THE COURT: And something --
10 THE WITNESS: The Wollersheim matter in
11 California.
12 THE COURT: Okay. Okay. That's enough.
13 THE WITNESS: And generally he's been, you
14 know, involved --
15 THE COURT: He's been your lawyer for a long
16 time?
17 THE WITNESS: Historically -- well,
18 historically relative to this, you know, when I
19 first -- you know, he'd never been involved in any
20 litigation matters. But back in '98, when I was
21 first deposed in this case, you know, that's when I,
22 you know, started telling him what had been going on
23 and what my involvement in this whole thing was, and
24 you know, asked for his help.
25 THE COURT: Okay. Sorry. I just --
1538
1 MR. DANDAR: Okay.
2 BY MR. DANDAR:
3 Q And you mentioned Wollersheim. Just a real quick
4 question. Wollersheim was part of these discussions that
5 you were having with the Church of Scientology in addition
6 to McPherson and all the other cases, right?
7 A Yes.
8 Q And you personally had nothing to, quote, set the
9 record straight, close quote, in the Wollersheim case,
10 right?
11 A That's right. I think it was just Stacy Brooks.
12 Q Stacy Brooks just tried to get her declarations
13 withdrawn, right?
14 A I think one declaration.
15 Q And you tried to get the case dismissed.
16 A Well, I discussed a number of possibilities with
17 Mr. Leipold, and indirectly with Mr. Wollersheim.
18 Q And that was a precondition for your having any
19 chance to have a global settlement with Scientology, wasn't
20 it?
21 A No, it wasn't.
22 Q So if the Wollersheim case did not get dismissed,
23 it's your understanding you can still have a global
24 settlement with Scientology?
25 A Absolutely.
1539
1 Q And if you don't get this case dismissed, what
2 happens?
3 A There's still the possibility of a global
4 settlement. It's not going to change the possibility of
5 doing that.
6 Q Have anything in writing?
7 A No. There's -- you know, this is a good-faith
8 belief. You know, my good-faith belief -- and I've already
9 testified about this, you know, relative to Wollersheim, you
10 know -- that, you know, it would perhaps cost me more money.
11 Q You've mentioned at the beginning of today's
12 testimony that those two speeches you gave that are marked
13 as -- now in exhibits -- you believed what you said at that
14 time. Does that mean you don't believe what you said then,
15 now?
16 A You know, I -- I -- I now have different feelings
17 about a number of issues related to -- to my involvement in
18 this and towards the Church of Scientology.
19 Q Is that one of the preconditions, for you to
20 announce that you've changed your position on the Church of
21 Scientology, for you to go forward and discuss a global
22 settlement?
23 A I told you there's only one precondition, and
24 that's not it.
25 Q Okay.
1540
1 A I mean --
2 Q Did you --
3 A We still have -- we still have our Web site up.
4 Q Did you check on that, by the way, that Web site?
5 Were all your declarations and Ms. Brooks' were withdrawn,
6 except the one Mr. Rinder prepared?
7 A No, I didn't. I didn't check anything.
8 Ms. Brooks talked to Mr. Bunker to get him down here to work
9 with Judge Keane, I believe, on the videos.
10 THE COURT: Who?
11 THE WITNESS: Mr. Bunker.
12 THE COURT: No. To work with whom?
13 THE WITNESS: Judge Keane.
14 MR. DANDAR: Judge Keane.
15 THE COURT: Oh, Judge Keane.
16 I don't know if he'll be pleased or not
17 pleased.
18 THE WITNESS: Is he not a judge?
19 THE COURT: No, he's not. He's a lawyer. But
20 a richer lawyer, I might add. Apparently he got a
21 $1.9 million verdict that he was waiting on.
22 MR. DANDAR: That's a nice wait.
23 MR. FUGATE: And he picked up the film.
24 THE COURT: Yeah. And he took it out on his
25 shoulder. I said, "Look --" he said, "Do you want
1541
1 me to take it now?" And I said, "To tell you the
2 truth, I would like for you to have it." So he was
3 waiting.
4 THE WITNESS: I was confused. I was thinking
5 Judge Beach and I said Judge Keane.
6 THE COURT: That's all right. As I said, I
7 don't know if he'll look at that as a compliment or
8 not. Most likely not. Not with that big verdict.
9 But anyway --
10 (A discussion was held off the record.)
11 BY MR. DANDAR:
12 Q Mr. Minton, did you discuss anything at all with
13 Mr. Rosen or Mr. Pope before your deposition of April 8th?
14 A With Mr. Pope or Mr. Rosen? I'm trying to --
15 I believe that Mr. Howie and Mr. Jonas talked with
16 them -- not with them, but with Mr. Rosen.
17 Q Do you know if your attorneys or you had any
18 heads-up as to the questions that were going to be asked of
19 you on April 8th?
20 A No.
21 Q You have any idea why your alleged perjury was not
22 even questioned about during the April 8th deposition?
23 A Do I have what?
24 Q Do you have any idea why Mr. Rosen did not ask you
25 one question --
1542
1 A Yeah.
2 Q -- about your confessions that you made to
3 Mr. Rinder on April 6th?
4 A Well, I was surprised that they didn't. I -- I
5 don't know why they didn't.
6 Q You had no heads-up that they weren't going to ask
7 that.
8 A No.
9 Q Now, what happened after the deposition of
10 April 8th? Who did you meet with?
11 A Nobody. We left. And you know, we talked a
12 little bit with Mr. Howie outside. And Mr. Jonas was
13 staying at the same hotel that Stacy Brooks and I were
14 staying at, and we went back to the hotel, and the three of
15 us had dinner.
16 Q Any more contact on April 8th from the Church of
17 Scientology?
18 A Not that I recall.
19 Q Okay. What about April 9th, before the hearing
20 started?
21 A I believe that -- I think that hearing started in
22 the afternoon.
23 Q No. It started in the morning.
24 A Okay. Well, sometime Mr. Jonas and perhaps
25 Mr. Howie and Mr. Rosen talked.
1543
1 Q Before the hearing?
2 A I believe so, yes.
3 Q Did you have any idea whatsoever about the
4 questions that Mr. Rosen was going to ask you at the hearing
5 on April the 9th?
6 A I never -- I'd never seen or heard the questions
7 before. And I was sort of surprised that they had, you
8 know, deposition transcripts and things of that nature as
9 part of the questions.
10 Q Why is that?
11 A Well, it was, you know, laid out -- the questions
12 were laid out very clearly, you know, based on what I had
13 told them and what the depositions said.
14 Q After that --
15 A So I mean, that was again one of these things that
16 some of the people that I believe you have been involved
17 with have stated on the Internet, that that was scripted
18 testimony. And none of those things were ever discussed in
19 advance.
20 Q What happened after the hearing on April 9th? Did
21 you meet with anyone from the Church of Scientology?
22 THE COURT: Mr. Minton, why do you -- why do
23 you persist in going to those sites and reading
24 stuff, that must be things that you don't like to
25 read? Why don't you just not go there? What is the
1544
1 purpose --
2 THE WITNESS: Well --
3 THE COURT: -- of that?
4 THE WITNESS: -- I can't tell you how many
5 other people have advised me that way too, your
6 Honor. It's a bad habit that I haven't broken yet.
7 THE COURT: Okay.
8 THE WITNESS: But it's definitely --
9 THE COURT: Well, you can rest assured that,
10 probably until this matter is over and beyond, based
11 on what I have read in all of these things, that
12 you're not going to see much good about yourself on
13 those sites. Just as you wrote some pretty hateful
14 things, my guess is they're going to write some
15 pretty hateful things about you. So --
16 THE WITNESS: Yes, your Honor.
17 THE COURT: -- I'm no psychologist, but I don't
18 like to beat myself up. And sometimes I'll read
19 some editorial, and then I'll not read it again
20 because, you know, I don't like to -- I don't like
21 to see things about myself that are painful.
22 THE WITNESS: Yes, your Honor.
23 THE COURT: And sometimes untrue.
24 THE WITNESS: Yes, well --
25 THE COURT: Right?
1545
1 So just for whatever it's worth, you know, I
2 just don't know why you'd want to. You keep
3 remarking in court about the things that are on that
4 Web site. You've done it several times, so
5 obviously, it bothers you. It's things that are
6 sticking in your mind. Doesn't seem like a good
7 idea to me.
8 But go ahead.
9 BY MR. DANDAR:
10 Q How many people --
11 MR. DANDAR: Since you brought it up --
12 BY MR. DANDAR:
13 Q How many people on the ARS say bad things about
14 you?
15 THE COURT: How many write on the Web site? I
16 mean, I don't know. Does anybody say anything good?
17 THE WITNESS: Yes. Yes.
18 THE COURT: Okay.
19 THE WITNESS: It's -- it's a bit of a puzzle as
20 to how many people actually are involved in this.
21 It is the largest -- it has been at times -- I don't
22 know whether it is this very day, but there's weekly
23 ratings of how -- how -- in terms of the volume of
24 traffic on a newsgroup, and alt.religion.scientology
25 has at many times been the most-read newsgroup on
1546
1 the Internet.
2 THE COURT: It has been?
3 THE WITNESS: Yes.
4 THE COURT: Wow.
5 THE WITNESS: And you know, some people -- you
6 know, it's a very imprecise science, I think, but
7 some people have estimated as many as 20,000 people
8 actually view it. But there's probably not more
9 than a hundred who actually post to it on a regular
10 basis. The others are what are called lurkers.
11 They just lurk to sort of see what's going on and
12 don't participate in the conversations.
13 And out of that maybe hundred people who
14 actively post to it, probably 10 people account for
15 75 percent of the -- of the messages, just because,
16 you know, they -- they may post, you know, 50 or 60
17 messages a day. I mean, it's just like that's all
18 they do. I mean, you can't have time to do any
19 other thing in life than to sit there and post every
20 day, 50 or 60 messages.
21 BY MR. DANDAR:
22 Q You --
23 A And --
24 So I don't know whether that answers your
25 question, but --
1547
1 Q No.
2 How many people post about you and are negative
3 about you?
4 A At the present time?
5 Q Well, let's say January, February of this year.
6 A Well, the same people who were part of this smear
7 campaign are still the same people who are posting negative
8 things about me now.
9 Q How many are -- how many is that?
10 A Maybe five.
11 Q You sure it's not two?
12 A Well, those two --
13 THE COURT: You must be reading it too.
14 MR. DANDAR: Naw, I don't read it.
15 THE WITNESS: Ms. Greenway, his advisor, reads
16 it.
17 THE COURT: Five versus two.
18 I just made a point, an observation.
19 MR. DANDAR: Well, he says associated with me,
20 so I want him now to identify --
21 BY MR. DANDAR:
22 Q Who do you claim is associated with me posting bad
23 things about you --
24 THE COURT: Maybe you could be working on your
25 motion for summary judgment if you weren't reading
1548
1 alt. --
2 MR. DANDAR: I don't read it.
3 THE COURT: -- scientology --
4 MR. DANDAR: I don't read it. I don't -- who
5 has time for that?
6 THE COURT: All right.
7 BY MR. DANDAR:
8 Q How many are associated, you claim, with me?
9 A Well, you know, I'm not sure that this really is
10 all relevant to this, but you know, Patricia Greenway first.
11 Q You actually see a post from her on the ARS?
12 MR. WEINBERG: Your Honor --
13 A No. That's not --
14 THE COURT: You want to object that it's not
15 relevant?
16 MR. WEINBERG: Well --
17 THE COURT: Sustained.
18 THE WITNESS: You know --
19 THE COURT: You don't need to say any more.
20 THE WITNESS: Okay. Sorry.
21 BY MR. DANDAR:
22 Q Okay. So after the -- the hearing in the morning
23 on April 9th before Judge Baird, you claim -- I think you
24 said this yesterday -- you didn't know that your deposition
25 was supposed to commence in Mr. Pope's office so that my
1549
1 brother or Mr. Lirot could cross examine you, correct?
2 A No. I had no advice that that was supposed to
3 happen.
4 Q Okay. So who did you meet with on April the 9th
5 after your hearing?
6 A I'm -- I'm not sure that we even had a meeting
7 with anybody other than Mr. Jonas again.
8 Q Okay.
9 A I --
10 Q When's the --
11 A I remember we -- Stacy and I took him to the
12 airport. I think that was the day he left. He wanted to
13 leave as soon as he could. Yeah. So I don't think there
14 was any meeting on April the 9th. And in fact, I don't know
15 whether Stacy Brooks and I left that night, as well, or the
16 next morning. But we went to New York after that.
17 Q Why?
18 A On the 10th and the 11th.
19 Q Why?
20 A I had meetings in New York.
21 Q With who?
22 A Nobody connected with this case. I mean --
23 Q Personal meetings?
24 A Personal matters.
25 THE COURT: But personal matters unrelated to
1550
1 anything --
2 THE WITNESS: Oh, completely.
3 THE COURT: Okay.
4 THE WITNESS: Nothing to do with this.
5 BY MR. DANDAR:
6 Q Have anything to do with the Swiss banks?
7 A No.
8 Q Did Mr. Jonas leave pleased and happy about your
9 testimony of April 9th?
10 MR. HOWIE: Objection to the extent it calls
11 for attorney-client privilege.
12 THE COURT: I think it does.
13 MR. DANDAR: All right.
14 THE COURT: Sustained.
15 BY MR. DANDAR:
16 Q When's the next time you had any contact of any
17 kind -- any kind -- with the Church of Scientology?
18 A Well, it's possible that I talked to them on the
19 phone, but I -- I don't remember. But we came back to Tampa
20 on Friday morning. We flew out of New York on Friday
21 morning, Stacy Brooks and myself.
22 Q What date was that?
23 A The 12th.
24 Q Why did you come back?
25 A I'm not sure I remember what prompted us to come
1551
1 back. But I know that afternoon we had a -- no, I'm not
2 sure whether -- we were going to have a meeting that
3 afternoon with Mr. Rinder and Ms. Yingling. But we -- I
4 don't believe we had it.
5 Q Why?
6 A Because that was the day that Jesse Prince came
7 over to the Adams Mark Hotel.
8 Q So that was the 12th, right?
9 A And we spent a long time with him.
10 Q And this was a friendly --
11 THE COURT: This was --
12 Let me stop.
13 Was the meeting something that was called off;
14 just didn't happen; you just didn't get together?
15 What was -- wasn't a definite meeting and didn't
16 occur or you just don't remember?
17 THE WITNESS: You know, I believe there was a
18 definite meeting. You know, I -- Stacy and I got
19 here somewhat later than anticipated. And I
20 think -- I think we asked them if we could do it the
21 next day.
22 THE COURT: Okay.
23 THE WITNESS: The Sunday, I believe.
24 BY MR. DANDAR:
25 Q Well, that's two days away?
1552
1 A No. The 13th was supposed to be the day of the
2 meeting. That's the day we flew back to Tampa.
3 Q Is there any other reason --
4 THE COURT: I'm sorry. I'm confused. I wrote
5 that you came back from New York on April the 12th.
6 Is that incorrect?
7 THE WITNESS: No. I'm sorry. The morning of
8 the 13th. Early in the morning, 9:00 or 9:30.
9 THE COURT: Okay. On April 13th.
10 THE WITNESS: From New York.
11 THE COURT: All right.
12 BY MR. DANDAR:
13 Q I thought you previously testified you had a
14 meeting with Jesse Prince on the 12th?
15 THE COURT: I thought --
16 THE WITNESS: I did. That's what I said.
17 BY MR. DANDAR:
18 Q Well, you had it in Clearwater, right?
19 A We had it at the -- as I said, we had a meeting
20 with Jesse Prince at the Adams Mark Hotel on the 12th.
21 Q All right. So you flew down here -- my question
22 is, you flew from New York to Clearwater on April the 12th.
23 A Correct.
24 Q And is there any reason, other than a meeting with
25 Mr. Rinder on the afternoon of the 12th, that would cause
1553
1 you to fly back from New York on the 12th?
2 A Not that I remember.
3 Q Okay.
4 A I think that was the reason we were coming back,
5 to meet with Mr. Rinder and Ms. Yingling.
6 THE COURT: On the 13th?
7 THE WITNESS: Well, originally we were going to
8 meet on the 12th.
9 THE COURT: Okay.
10 THE WITNESS: But you know, we --
11 THE COURT: I got you.
12 THE WITNESS: -- put that off until the 13th.
13 BY MR. DANDAR:
14 Q Did you put it off because you told them you were
15 meeting with Jesse Prince?
16 A I -- I wasn't there, but I believe Stacy did tell
17 them that we were going to meet with Jesse that afternoon.
18 Q And how long did you meet with Jesse?
19 A At some -- it started sometime in the late
20 afternoon and went through dinner. You know, a fairly
21 late-ish dinner.
22 Q Like 9:00?
23 A Like -- it could have been. I don't know.
24 Q And that was a friendly --
25 A But we -- we set in, you know, the restaurant for
1554
1 a long time. Stacy was involved in some -- Jesse and I
2 ended up being downstairs for some time by ourselves because
3 Stacy was talking on the phone. You know, as I think we've
4 all seen, that she does have a tendency to talk. And she
5 stayed on the phone a long time with somebody. And she came
6 down and joined us in the bar.
7 Q Was it Mr. Rinder that she was talking to?
8 A I don't believe it was. I believe it was personal
9 matters.
10 Q All right. And this meeting with Jesse lasted
11 then maybe, what, six hours, total time he was with you?
12 A You know, four to six.
13 Q All right.
14 A I'm not sure.
15 Q That's fine. Ballpark.
16 A I just remember we -- Jesse and I spent some
17 considerable time in the bar at this Adams Mark Hotel.
18 Stacy came down and joined us later. And we sat in the
19 restaurant for a long time, you know, after we ate. The
20 service was very slow, so we were going to be there a long
21 time anyway. But you know, we were just having friendly
22 talks, so didn't matter.
23 Q So was the whole experience on the 12th with Jesse
24 Prince a friendly experience?
25 A Yes. I'd say it was.
1555
1 Q Mr. Prince tell you why he got up and left the
2 hearing on April 9th, after he heard what you were saying
3 before Judge Baird?
4 A Yes, he did.
5 Q Did he tell you he got up and left the hearing
6 because he couldn't believe what you were saying?
7 A No. That's not what he said. What he said was
8 that he believed that he was watching me confessing to
9 perjury and that I was going to go to jail for it. That's
10 exactly what he said. And that's what he said that same
11 night to his girlfriend, Dee Phillips, who explained to us
12 why Jesse --
13 THE COURT: Well beyond what you need to do
14 now. What you need to do is answer the question and
15 not go on and say what happened after that, okay?
16 THE WITNESS: I'm sorry, your Honor. That -- I
17 was referring to a earlier --
18 Okay. I'm sorry.
19 THE COURT: I know. But see, what you're
20 trying to do here now is to say, well, this is what
21 he told me, and I know that's true because this is
22 what I heard, that --
23 You know, we don't need it.
24 THE WITNESS: Okay.
25
1556
1 BY MR. DANDAR:
2 Q Did Mr. Prince tell you on April the 12th --
3 excuse me. Did you tell Mr. Prince on April the 12th that
4 he needed to set the record straight in the Lisa McPherson
5 case?
6 A What I told Jesse is I was pretty sure that he had
7 lied.
8 Q In the Lisa McPherson case.
9 A In -- in depositions. And one in particular I
10 mentioned.
11 Q And would -- did you also include telling him that
12 he lied in the Wollersheim case?
13 A No.
14 Q You just talked about Lisa McPherson.
15 A Well, yeah.
16 Q Okay. And what is the one particular area you
17 told Mr. Prince on April the 12th that he lied about?
18 A Well, you know -- well, the whole thing that
19 involved the deposition of the Key West trip, which Stacy
20 was there for, I believe.
21 Q Stacy was where?
22 A At his deposition.
23 Q Oh. And Mr. Prince described his trip to Key
24 West?
25 A Well, it was that one, yeah, that related around
1557
1 the whole Key West trip.
2 Q Okay. And what was his testimony in his
3 deposition that you told him, on April the 12th, was a lie?
4 A I didn't tell him what. I just told him that I
5 think he should review that.
6 THE COURT: About the Key West trip?
7 THE WITNESS: Well, that deposition that
8 involved the Key West trip.
9 THE COURT: Is that what you were saying that
10 you thought he'd lied about? I mean, what was it
11 you were concerned with that he had lied about?
12 THE WITNESS: Well, about that whole Key West
13 trip, and the purpose of it, and who was there, and
14 whether he flew down there with Mr. Dandar or flew
15 back -- you know, I -- I do not remember -- oh, I
16 don't remember exactly what I said, because I wasn't
17 at that deposition. But Stacy is the one who told
18 me that, you know, that Jesse was definitely --
19 THE COURT: Well past where we need to be on
20 this.
21 The area that you told him you were concerned
22 about was whatever it was he said in his deposition
23 about a Key West trip, the whole thing surrounding
24 that.
25 THE WITNESS: That's right.
1558
1 THE COURT: Okay.
2 THE WITNESS: That's right, your Honor.
3 BY MR. DANDAR:
4 Q All right. Did you tell him anything else that he
5 lied about in the Lisa McPherson case?
6 A No.
7 Q All right. And what was his reply?
8 A He said, you know, "I don't -- I don't think I
9 ever told any lies in any depositions."
10 Q Okay. And so who else did you tell him about
11 doing any kind of negotiating with the Church of
12 Scientology?
13 A Well, Jesse -- you know, I told him that -- that,
14 you know, I was trying to look out for his interest when we
15 met in New York. I didn't tell him how I was looking out
16 for his interest.
17 But the thing in terms of his house. He's -- he's
18 felt -- and you know, I don't know whether he's right or
19 wrong -- he's felt that somehow his house hasn't sold
20 because Scientology won't let anybody buy it.
21 Q In fact, you talked about his house in your
22 negotiations in New York, didn't you?
23 A That's -- yeah.
24 MR. FUGATE: Your Honor, he keeps interrupting
25 the witness.
1559
1 MR. DANDAR: Well, he keeps -- I'm not
2 interrupting him. Mr. Minton is looking at me --
3 THE COURT: That's all right. Overruled.
4 BY MR. DANDAR:
5 Q Okay. Mr. Minton, I'm looking at you, and it
6 looks like you're stopped. That's why I start talking
7 again, so put your hands up or something if you're not
8 done --
9 A Okay.
10 Q -- or something.
11 Did I interrupt you just now?
12 A I don't remember. You've interrupted me so many
13 times I don't remember whether it happened then or not.
14 Q All right. Let's try to do it better. I will
15 anyway.
16 A Mr. Prince was enthusiastic about the possibility
17 of being able to just get out of Clearwater and walk away
18 from all this mess. He -- he had had -- he's had
19 problems --
20 THE COURT: I don't know what the question is
21 here. What are we --
22 BY MR. DANDAR:
23 Q Why --
24 THE COURT: Why are we reflecting on Jesse
25 Prince?
1560
1 BY MR. DANDAR:
2 Q Why did you talk about Jesse Prince being able to
3 sell his house with the Church of Scientology?
4 MR. WEINBERG: Well, in answer to your
5 question, I think he was asking what he said to
6 Mr. Prince and what Mr. Prince said to him.
7 THE COURT: Oh, okay.
8 MR. WEINBERG: And that's what he was
9 describing.
10 THE COURT: All right.
11 A So --
12 THE COURT: Well, what each of them said is one
13 thing. But for him to start saying, "I think he was
14 worried about --" if he wasn't saying it, we just
15 don't need it.
16 MR. DANDAR: Exactly.
17 THE WITNESS: No, no. He was saying it.
18 THE COURT: Okay.
19 THE WITNESS: Mr. -- Mr. Prince had a lot of
20 problems selling his house. He's telling me that
21 he's had a lot of -- this is over the last number of
22 months -- that he's had a lot of problems selling
23 his house.
24 It turned out that he was not truthful about
25 why some of the problems were occurring. For
1561
1 example, he first --
2 THE COURT: See, we don't need to go there.
3 We're talking about a communication that you had
4 with Mr. Prince on the 13th.
5 MR. DANDAR: 12th.
6 THE COURT: 12th.
7 THE WITNESS: Yeah.
8 THE COURT: And what he said and you said.
9 Now, I don't even know what -- the last thing
10 that I wrote down that you said was, you said to
11 him, "I've looked out for your interest in New
12 York."
13 THE WITNESS: "I've tried to look after your
14 interest in New York."
15 THE COURT: "I've tried to look out for your
16 interest in New York."
17 BY MR. DANDAR:
18 Q That interest in New York was when you were
19 talking with Mr. Rinder and Mr. Rosen. And you included, as
20 part of your negotiations, Mr. Prince being able to sell his
21 house in Clearwater.
22 A Yes. I -- I did, yeah.
23 Q All right. And the reason why you included that
24 is because you were led to believe by Mr. Prince that he was
25 unable to sell his house in Clearwater because the Church of
1562
1 Scientology was in some way stifling that attempt.
2 A Yeah. I -- you know -- yeah.
3 Q All right. So what did you talk about with Mr. --
4 What was the response, by the way, of Mr. Rinder
5 or Mr. Rosen or Ms. Yingling in New York City when you
6 brought up Mr. Prince's attempts to sell his house?
7 A Nothing.
8 Q Did you talk about it on April 6th in Clearwater
9 with Mr. Rinder?
10 A No.
11 Q Okay. So on April the 12th, this subject matter
12 comes up about you trying to protect Mr. Prince's interest,
13 selling his house. And what did Mr. Prince respond?
14 A "That's great."
15 Q Okay.
16 A You know, "I want to get out of here."
17 And you know, we asked him -- both Stacy and I
18 asked him, because we had had a problem with this -- he had
19 put his house on the market for $90,000 higher than the
20 realtor recommended. And we asked him whether he had
21 corrected all of this problem with the realtor. He said
22 "Yes." You know, "I've got it on a realistic price that the
23 realtor advised."
24 So you know, I mean, that was a concern, you know,
25 because that was also part of his problem.
1563
1 Q Well, talk to -- tell us what was said between you
2 and Jesse Prince on April the 12th that had to do with your
3 negotiations with Scientology.
4 A Well, there weren't negotiations going on. There
5 were discussions about setting the record straight, telling
6 the truth about the Florida cases. That's -- that's all
7 that was talked about.
8 Q And outside of the -- what you told Mr. Prince
9 something he had to correct about the Key West trip, you
10 didn't tell him anything else that he had to recant?
11 A Not that -- not that I recall, or not that I
12 recall Stacy Brooks saying.
13 Q Okay. Was there any further discussion on April
14 the 12th, between you, Ms. Brooks and Jesse Prince, about
15 your negotiations with the Church of Scientology?
16 A Not that I remember.
17 Q All right. Next -- did you call anybody like
18 Mr. Rinder or anybody on April the 12th, to set up this
19 meeting for the 13th, other than what you've already talked
20 about?
21 A Other than just to reschedule it for the 13th.
22 Q Okay. So did you call any of your attorneys to
23 tell them you were going back in to meet with Mr. Rinder on
24 the 13th?
25 MR. HOWIE: Objection. Privilege.
1564
1 THE COURT: No, it's not. The question is did
2 he call, not what did he say. Overruled.
3 A I don't remember whether I did or not.
4 BY MR. DANDAR:
5 Q By the way -- go back to Mr. Jonas coming down
6 here for your deposition on April the 8th and being upset
7 with you, that you met with Mr. Rinder.
8 Are you saying that Mr. Jonas --
9 A That's not what I testified to.
10 Q All right. I mean --
11 THE COURT: Well, he hasn't asked you a
12 question.
13 We'll all recall what he testified to.
14 BY MR. DANDAR:
15 Q Did Mr. Jonas know about this letter that
16 Mr. Moxon wrote, apparently was signed on April the 5th,
17 saying it's okay for you to walk in there on April the 6th
18 and meet with Mr. Rinder without your attorneys?
19 A I don't remember whether I told him about it or
20 not. But you know, I told him that I was going to meet with
21 them, you know, that day.
22 Q Just didn't tell him you were going to meet with
23 them without Mr. Howie being present.
24 A I did. You know -- I mean, I told him we were
25 going by ourselves.
1565
1 Q Okay. On April the 13th of --
2 THE COURT: Okay. April the 13th. We're done
3 with the 12th?
4 MR. DANDAR: Yes, we are.
5 THE COURT: Then -- it's 10:25. We're going to
6 take a break. We'll be in recess until a quarter
7 till.
8 You all can be at ease.
9 (A recess was taken at 10:28 a.m.)
10 (The proceedings resumed at 10:50 a.m.)
11 THE COURT: You may continue.
12 MR. DANDAR: Judge, if this is too loud, let me
13 know and I'll shut it off.
14 THE COURT: Okay.
15 BY MR. DANDAR:
16 Q All right. Before we get to April 13th -- and if
17 I asked you this, I apologize, but I didn't think I did --
18 Did Mr. Armstrong know that the UBS check was your
19 money?
20 A Yes.
21 Q Did Ms. Brooks know?
22 A I don't think she was --
23 Q Pardon me?
24 A I don't think she was aware.
25 Q All right. What happened on April 13th?
1566
1 A I believe that we met in the morning of April 13th
2 with Mr. Rinder and Mr. Yingling -- Mrs. Yingling.
3 Q Anyone else?
4 A Anyone else from the Church of Scientology?
5 Q Correct.
6 A I don't think so. In fact, I'm not even sure
7 Ms. Yingling was at that meeting because of the cancellation
8 of the day before. There was a weekend that she flew back
9 to Washington to be with her children, and there were
10 some -- I don't know whether it was this weekend or not.
11 Q All right.
12 A There was a meeting scheduled with both of them,
13 but I think it might have just been with Mr. Rinder that
14 day.
15 Q So you have a recollection