1636
1 IN THE CIRCUIT COURT FOR PINELLAS COUNTY, FLORIDA
2 CASE NO. 00-5682-CI-11
3
4
5
DELL LIEBREICH, as Personal
6 Representative of the ESTATE OF
LISA McPHERSON,
7
8 Plaintiff,
9 vs. VOLUME 13
10 CHURCH OF SCIENTOLOGY FLAG
SERVICE ORGANIZATION, JANIS
11 JOHNSON, ALAIN KARTUZINSKI
and DAVID HOUGHTON, D.D.S.,
12
Defendants.
13
_______________________________________/
14
15
16 PROCEEDINGS: Defendants' Omnibus Motion for
Terminating Sanctions and Other Relief.
17
CONTENTS: Testimony of Robert Minton.
18
DATE: May 29, 2002. Afternoon Session.
19
PLACE: Courtroom B, Judicial Building
20 St. Petersburg, Florida.
21 BEFORE: Honorable Susan F. Schaeffer,
Circuit Judge.
22
REPORTED BY: Lynne J. Ide, RMR.
23 Deputy Official Court Reporter,
Sixth Judicial Circuit of Florida.
24
25
1637
1 APPEARANCES:
2
MR. KENNAN G. DANDAR
3 DANDAR & DANDAR
5340 West Kennedy Blvd., Suite 201
4 Tampa, FL 33602
Attorney for Plaintiff.
5
6 MR. LUKE CHARLES LIROT
LUKE CHARLES LIROT, PA
7 112 N East Street, Street, Suite B
Tampa, FL 33602-4108
8 Attorney for Plaintiff
9
MR. KENDRICK MOXON
10 MOXON & KOBRIN
1100 Cleveland Street, Suite 900
11 Clearwater, FL 33755
Attorney for Church of Scientology Flag Service
12 Organization.
13
MR. LEE FUGATE and
14 MR. MORRIS WEINBERG, JR. and
ZUCKERMAN, SPAEDER
15 101 E. Kennedy Blvd, Suite 1200
Tampa, FL 33602-5147
16 Attorneys for Church of Scientology Flag Service
Organization.
17
18 MR. ERIC M. LIEBERMAN
RABINOWITZ, BOUDIN, STANDARD
19 740 Broadway at Astor Place
New York, NY 10003-9518
20 Attorney for Church of Scientology Flag Service
Organization.
21
22 MR. MICHAEL LEE HERTZBERG
740 Broadway, Fifth Floor
23 New York, New York 10003
Attorney for Church of Scientology Flag Service
24 Organization.
25
1638
1 APPEARANCES:
(Continued)
2
3 MR. THOMAS H. MCGOWAN
MCGOWAN & SUAREZ, LLP
4 150 2nd Avenue North, Suite 870
St. Petersburg, FL 33701-3381
5 Attorney for Stacy Brooks.
6
MR. BRUCE HOWIE
7 5720 Central Avenue
St. Petersburg, Florida.
8 Attorney for Robert Minton.
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
1639
1 THE COURT: Are we ready?
2 MR. DANDAR: Yes, your Honor.
3 MR. McGOWAN: Your Honor, if I may, I
4 understand -- Tom McGowan, for the record.
5 Something came up this morning over the
6 videotapes, what was given over to Mr. Keane.
7 THE COURT: Yes?
8 MR. McGOWAN: I just wanted to clarify
9 something on the record and explain to the Court
10 where we're coming from on this.
11 We understand -- obviously, because the tapes
12 were delivered so late in the game and we are trying
13 to rectify problems that have happened, Mr. Bunker
14 is flying down here -- Mr. Bunker certainly asserts
15 all of the privileges he has asserted. He can
16 physically look at these tapes, I'm told, play them
17 himself, and sort out what he's willing to give up
18 and what he wants to maintain the privilege on under
19 Mr. Keane's supervision, if that is agreeable to the
20 Court.
21 THE COURT: It is not agreeable to the Court.
22 I don't know what he wants to keep -- whether what
23 he wants to keep is something that should be turned
24 over, quite frankly.
25 MR. McGOWAN: I agree.
1640
1 THE COURT: So I'm not interested in what it is
2 he wants to do, and I'm not interested in what
3 either of the parties want. What I'm interested in
4 determining is if the parties are given what it is
5 that is relevant to this case, and they are going to
6 be given that whether Mr. Bunker wants it to be
7 given or not.
8 MR. McGOWAN: Absolutely. And I'm not
9 suggesting Mr. Bunker would adjudicate that issue.
10 But it may be that he knows at least what he thinks
11 is privileged. It may or may not be. He certainly
12 may --
13 THE COURT: He certainly wouldn't know what is
14 privileged. He wouldn't know what is privileged.
15 So, I mean, all I want Mr. Bunker to do, if he's
16 willing to sit down and say -- I heard, for example,
17 true or not, he would know, but I heard Mr. Merrett
18 say there were tapes in there he made of his family.
19 MR. McGOWAN: Uh-huh.
20 THE COURT: All I need is to see, "This is a
21 tape of my family." That clearly is something that
22 he would give back to him, nobody would have an
23 interest in or anything of the sort.
24 If he were to say, "This tape is --" I don't
25 know, I could go on and on with examples, "I think
1641
1 this tape is privileged because it doesn't have
2 anything to do with this case," well, I wouldn't be
3 interested in what he thinks.
4 MR. McGOWAN: Yes. You would need to watch the
5 tape.
6 THE COURT: Yes. I just want him to say what
7 is on the tape. If he says, "This is a tape of
8 Mr. Dandar talking to Dell Liebreich and I think
9 that that is something that should be turned over,"
10 well, I frankly wouldn't care. No, it couldn't.
11 That would probably be privileged.
12 MR. McGOWAN: Right.
13 THE COURT: Maybe not. If he were --
14 MR. McGOWAN: I see what you mean.
15 THE COURT: In other words, I don't want him
16 making this decision. Mr. Keane certainly isn't in
17 a position where he's aware of all of the
18 intricacies of what we've been going through here
19 where he might not think something was relevant, I
20 might think it was --
21 MR. McGOWAN: Absolutely.
22 THE COURT: -- because it might involve some
23 case in California, some witness in California. I
24 might say I think that is relevant and I want it
25 turned over.
1642
1 So what -- what -- on the other hand, it may be
2 something that he doesn't care a thing about, that
3 he's perfectly willing to turn over, that I may say
4 this really doesn't have anything to do with this
5 case and, consequently, it's not relevant.
6 Therefore, it's not to be turned over, and I'll give
7 it back to him.
8 Now, if it's his, once I make this decision, I
9 could care less what he does with them. I just --
10 as guardian of these tapes, I'm the one who told
11 Mr. Merrett to go get them and deliver them to
12 court, and I'm the one that told you to deliver them
13 to the Court.
14 They are in my possession. I have turned them
15 over to Mr. Keane, and I'm going to make an initial
16 decision, after Mr. Keane does whatever it is he's
17 supposed to do, as to what tapes get turned over and
18 what tapes don't.
19 MR. McGOWAN: I guess then the guidance I'm
20 looking for, for Mr. Bunker, is if he comes down
21 here, is he able to watch the tapes and at least say
22 this is tape number one, it contains the following
23 things, one, two, three, four, five.
24 THE COURT: I don't even care what it contains,
25 just people.
1643
1 MR. McGOWAN: People, conversations --
2 THE COURT: Conversations, or obviously if it
3 has -- if this has to do with the Lisa McPherson --
4 this is a discussion about the Lisa McPherson case.
5 MR. McGOWAN: Right.
6 THE COURT: Something like that.
7 MR. McGOWAN: Right. Okay. I just --
8 THE COURT: And if I'm in doubt, after I see
9 whatever law he puts together, then I may say I want
10 to see that myself. If I'm not in doubt, then I'll
11 say turn these over, don't turn these over.
12 MR. McGOWAN: That is fine. I just wanted to
13 make sure everybody is on the same page.
14 THE COURT: Isn't that kind of what I said this
15 morning?
16 MR. MOXON: I think so.
17 MR. McGOWAN: That is fine.
18 THE COURT: And that tape -- or that little
19 brief whatever it is that he makes up, is to come to
20 me initially. Obviously, that is something that
21 most likely will be something that is given to
22 either side after I make my decision so that they
23 can see if they would want to say, "I don't agree
24 with this and can you look at this one further" or
25 something like this.
1644
1 MR. McGOWAN: You mean the actual physical tape
2 itself?
3 THE COURT: I mean the little blip. In other
4 words, the little blip is to come to me initially.
5 MR. McGOWAN: Okay.
6 THE COURT: All right?
7 MR. McGOWAN: Very good. Thank you.
8 THE COURT: Thank you.
9 Continue.
10 MR. DANDAR: Okay.
11 THE COURT: And the long and short of it is I
12 really don't want to hear any more about these. I
13 don't want to hear from somebody coming in here
14 saying this was private, and it's turned over, and I
15 don't want to see lawsuits coming out of it. I
16 don't want to hear much more about it, frankly. If
17 it has something to do with this, fine. If it
18 doesn't, I don't want to hear about it.
19 BY MR. DANDAR:
20 Q Mr. Minton, we're going to get back to the
21 meetings. I just wanted to ask you a question again about
22 Gerry Armstrong.
23 A Sure.
24 Q In addition to you giving Gerry Armstrong a UBS
25 check that was from your bank account to pay back your loan
1645
1 of $100,000, isn't it true you also gave him money --
2 $100,000 to make a donation to the LMT?
3 A That is correct.
4 Q And was that also on a UBS check?
5 A It was a UBS check.
6 Q So when you testified on April 8 of 2002 in your
7 deposition with Mr. Rosen, that is the second area that you
8 did not tell the truth about?
9 A Mmm, that was one of the areas that I marked off
10 in this deposition. Yes.
11 Q All right. So both moneys to Mr. Armstrong?
12 A Correct.
13 Q In your deposition of April 8, you did not tell
14 the truth about that, correct?
15 A That is right.
16 THE COURT: Is this -- this is not the $100,000
17 used to pay back the loan. This is a second
18 $100,000?
19 THE WITNESS: Yes. Yes, your Honor.
20 THE COURT: All right.
21 BY MR. DANDAR:
22 Q And were you ever planning on filing a recantation
23 affidavit about the Gerry Armstrong money now totalling
24 $200,000?
25 A Correct. I was.
1646
1 Q Have you given Mr. Armstrong more money?
2 A Mmm, I have.
3 Q How much?
4 A I don't remember the amount.
5 Q Was it also by way of UBS checks?
6 A Yes.
7 Q And did you tell him it was from anonymous sources
8 in Europe?
9 A No, I didn't.
10 Q Did you tell him it was from you?
11 A Yes.
12 Q And the loan repayment check, UBS, and the
13 donation LMT check from UBS, did you tell Mr. Armstrong that
14 was your money?
15 A Yes. I also told you with regards to the loan
16 repayment.
17 Q You told me? When?
18 A Well, sometime after Mr. Armstrong's deposition
19 where he said -- you sent me his deposition. And he said
20 that he had not repaid back that loan.
21 THE COURT: This is something else he's
22 forgotten to tell us, so just move on.
23 MR. DANDAR: All right.
24 BY MR. DANDAR:
25 Q Okay. We left off with your meeting with
1647
1 Mr. Howie and Ms. Brooks in Mr. Howie's office.
2 Did you get any calls from anyone related --
3 associated with the Church of Scientology on April 17th?
4 A In Mr. Howie's office?
5 Q Yes.
6 A I'm in the wrong month. Oh, I don't recall. I
7 don't think so.
8 Q Did you --
9 A I got calls from several people, but I don't think
10 anybody from Scientology called me.
11 Q All right. Did you sign your affidavit on
12 April 17th?
13 A I think that is the date. I can look at it here,
14 but I believe that is the date.
15 Q And so -- just to make sure, before we move on, no
16 one from the Church of Scientology had any input on how you
17 should write your affidavit?
18 A None whatsoever.
19 Q The first one?
20 A Yes.
21 Q All right. Except whatever they -- documents they
22 highlighted or tabbed that was delivered that Mr. -- that
23 Mr. Howie had?
24 A Well, that is correct, they did deliver those
25 documents. Yes.
1648
1 Q All right. And were the tabbed documents
2 delivered to Mr. Howie's office or to you while you were at
3 Mr. Pope's office on the 15th?
4 A To Mr. Howie's office.
5 Q Was it delivered to Mr. Howie's office on the
6 15th?
7 A If that is the date we were all there, which I
8 think it is, yes.
9 Q All right. Now, when is the -- well, let me ask
10 you this. Is there something that you wanted to put in your
11 recantation affidavit of April 17th that Ms. Brooks told you
12 not to put in?
13 A No. Not that I know of.
14 Q Well, as of April 17th, both Ms. Brooks -- well,
15 wait a minute. Was Mr. Howie present at your April 8th
16 deposition?
17 A I believe he was.
18 MR. FUGATE: Asked and answered.
19 BY MR. DANDAR:
20 Q All right, so as of April 17th -- Ms. Brooks was
21 there, too?
22 A Yes, she was there as an LMT rep.
23 Q Was there any discussion about you putting in your
24 lies that you told on the April 8th, 2002 deposition in your
25 first recantation affidavit of April 17th?
1649
1 A No. I think Mr. Howie was awaiting the
2 transcript.
3 Q Well, isn't it true that after you told those lies
4 about Clambake and LMT's $500,000 wire transfer, and the two
5 $100,000 payments made by Mr. Armstrong, that Ms. Brooks
6 requested -- or demanded that you take a break?
7 A Mmm, well, I believe on the record one of the
8 attorneys said something about taking a break.
9 Q Your attorney?
10 A One of them.
11 Q Did Ms. Brooks tell you, during the break, in so
12 many words, "What are you doing? Why are you lying about
13 the money?"
14 A Mmm, I believe there was a discussion with
15 Mr. Jonas and myself.
16 Q Wasn't Ms. Brooks part of that discussion?
17 A I don't believe she was in the room.
18 Q Did you have another discussion with her about why
19 you lied in the April 8th deposition, during the break?
20 A Well, as I recall, Mr. Howie and Mr. Jonas and I
21 went into an adjoining conference room. One of the two of
22 them, I think, excluded Stacy Brooks from being in there.
23 And then, at some point, Mr. Howie went out of the room and
24 it was just Mr. Jonas and myself.
25 Q So your best memory is Ms. Brooks did not talk to
1650
1 you at all about your false testimony during the deposition
2 of April 8th?
3 A I don't recall it.
4 Q All right. Okay, from April 17th until you
5 testified at 1:30 -- the hearing beginning at 1:30 on
6 April 19th before Judge Baird, did you meet with anyone or
7 talk to anyone or get any documents from the Church of
8 Scientology?
9 A I don't know. I just don't know. I don't have
10 it -- have it noted here. I mean, there were a lot of
11 discussions and a lot of meetings, and pretty much from this
12 point -- well, going back to the 15th, from there on, you
13 know, all of these things are just basically fuzzy.
14 Q Well --
15 A I mean, I remember some meetings, but I don't
16 remember any from the recantation affidavit until the 19th.
17 But, you know, I just never made a record of it.
18 Q Well, listen to this. All right? Your first
19 meeting was March 28th. Correct?
20 A Right.
21 Q Then we have one on the 29th?
22 A Right.
23 Q Then we have one on April 6th?
24 A Right.
25 Q You have your deposition on the 8th. That is not
1651
1 a meeting?
2 A Right.
3 Q You have your testimony on the 9th. That is not a
4 meeting?
5 A Right.
6 Q And then you don't meet with a representative of
7 the Church of Scientology until Saturday, the 13th, when you
8 met with Mr. Rinder. Correct?
9 A Well, that is right. Yes. I was out of town, and
10 came back on the 12th and 13th and had other meetings.
11 Q And then you met with Dr. Garko and Jesse Prince
12 on the 14th and just had a phone call to Mr. Rinder. So
13 that wasn't a meeting?
14 A Right.
15 Q Then on the 15th you had a meeting. Right?
16 A Yes. That is the one at Mr. Pope's office.
17 Right.
18 Q And then there are no other meetings then until
19 the 19th when you testified. And that is not a meeting.
20 Correct?
21 A Well, what I'm saying is I don't recall. I know
22 there wasn't a meeting on the 17th --
23 Q There was not?
24 A Well, because I was at Mr. Howie's office.
25 Q Right.
1652
1 A So, you know, I don't know whether there were
2 meetings those days or not. I don't think so because I was
3 in Mr. Howie's office that day.
4 Q Well, the ones you have testified today so far
5 total five meetings. Do you recall on April 19th in front
6 of Judge Baird you said: "As of April 19th, I have met with
7 the Church of Scientology ten to twelve times or more"?
8 A I recall saying that.
9 Q So we only covered less than half.
10 A Well, that is the best I can do for you.
11 Q Up until April 19th, besides Mr. Rinder and
12 Ms. Yingling and Mr. Rosen, who else can you remember
13 meeting with from the Church of Scientology?
14 A Well, I -- I don't know whether it was just up to
15 the 19th or not. At some -- a couple of meetings Mr. Shaw
16 was there.
17 Q Is it after the 19th or before?
18 A I don't know, Mr. Dandar. I didn't make any
19 contemporaneous notes of the dates or who was at the
20 meetings.
21 Q Did you meet with anyone from the Church of
22 Scientology the morning of April 19th?
23 A I simply don't remember.
24 Q Okay. And do you remember meeting with them the
25 day before the hearing of April 19th?
1653
1 A You know, I -- I -- I would like to be able to
2 help you, but I don't remember.
3 Q Okay.
4 A You know, there were a lot of meetings. And as
5 far as I'm concerned, these meetings just sort of melded
6 together.
7 Q Who called the meetings?
8 A Sometimes I did. I think sometimes Mr. Rinder
9 did.
10 Q Well, why don't you explain to us why in the world
11 you would have to meet with anyone from the Church of
12 Scientology, after you met in Wally Pope's office on
13 April 15th and they delivered all of the documents to you
14 for you to look at to recant?
15 A Well, because the documents that were delivered on
16 that date only related to those three main areas. But as I
17 said, I already had the testimony from Judge Baird's court
18 for two of those areas. So what was delivered related to
19 the third area that wasn't covered in Judge Baird's case.
20 So, you know, as in some of these subsequent
21 meetings, you know, other things came out, you know, other
22 areas of testimony that needed to be corrected.
23 And, you know, we went through the same process
24 again. You know, they would listen. They would ask
25 questions. They would look for documents and subsequently,
1654
1 you know, show us those documents -- or show me those
2 documents.
3 Q So who would bring up the other areas, other than
4 the three areas that you originally covered on April 6th?
5 A I would.
6 Q And these are other areas where you allege that
7 you perjured yourself?
8 A That is right. Basically, that is right.
9 Q And are you saying that all of the perjury that
10 you allege to have committed in your depositions or
11 affidavit are all the result of me instructing you to lie
12 under oath?
13 A I don't believe I said all of them were.
14 Q Can you recall any perjury that you committed that
15 had nothing to do with me, besides Clambake and Gerry
16 Armstrong?
17 A I can't at this moment.
18 Q If we looked at your three affidavits that you
19 filed, would we find you admitting to be a perjurer under
20 oath that had nothing to do with me?
21 A I believe you would find that. Yes.
22 Q Are you stating that the three areas -- the
23 May 2000 check, the secret agreement, and the meeting about
24 David Miscavige, are there more than those three areas that
25 you allege I am responsible for?
1655
1 A You know, I -- I don't know, right off the top of
2 my head.
3 Q Well, I want you to think about that, and as we go
4 along, maybe you can jot some notes down. If it comes to
5 you, interrupt me. Okay?
6 A You want me to look at my affidavit?
7 Q Do you have it with you?
8 A I think it is in this pile. I don't know.
9 Q Why don't you go ahead and do that then.
10 THE COURT: While he's looking for his
11 affidavit, you know, when I handed out that order
12 the other day, I didn't think -- there are lawyers
13 who are of record. I said all counsel of record. I
14 just handed out -- but I know Mr. Titus, I think, is
15 not here, and --
16 MR. FUGATE: Mr. Hanes is not here. But we are
17 forwarding whatever pleadings we get from
18 Mr. Dandar, Mr. Lirot, or any orders from the
19 Court --
20 THE COURT: Okay.
21 MR. FUGATE: -- we are forwarding those to
22 them.
23 THE COURT: So if I give copies to the two
24 tables in here, I can assume that you will forward
25 to the lawyers who are not here. I believe
1656
1 Ms. Kobrin is also --
2 MR. MOXON: She's my partner, your Honor.
3 THE COURT: So I don't have to mail it to those
4 people, is that true?
5 MR. MOXON: No.
6 MR. FUGATE: That is true.
7 THE COURT: Okay. Thanks.
8 MR. DANDAR: I tell you what, let's do that at
9 a break.
10 THE COURT: What is her name?
11 MR. MOXON: Kobrin. Yes, anything you give to
12 me, she sees.
13 THE WITNESS: I think I have a copy in my
14 briefcase but there is not one here.
15 MR. DANDAR: All right. Let's do that at a
16 break.
17 THE COURT: Basically, the areas -- at least as
18 I recall looking at your affidavit, the areas that
19 you say Mr. Dandar was involved in were the secret
20 agreement, the money, and the discussion that you
21 had where he indicated, "Let's not tell anybody
22 about this," or words to that effect?
23 THE WITNESS: And the three -- the three areas.
24 THE COURT: The three areas?
25 THE WITNESS: That is all that comes to mind
1657
1 right now. But, you know, I'll look over that.
2 THE COURT: Well, I'm going to put this onus on
3 you. If there are any other areas in your affidavit
4 that you are now saying that Mr. Dandar had
5 something to do with in that he told you not to tell
6 the truth about it or encouraged you to do anything
7 besides tell the truth, you let me know.
8 THE WITNESS: Okay. You know, other than what
9 I said in my affidavit, I don't think there is
10 anything beyond that that was in the affidavit.
11 THE COURT: Okay. Well, I want to be sure,
12 because as I remember, the initial discussion we
13 were talking about the things that had a bearing on
14 this case were three major things, and they are the
15 same three major things we talked about at the
16 beginning.
17 THE WITNESS: Right.
18 THE COURT: All three of those things you'd
19 indicated that Mr. Dandar had some complicity in?
20 THE WITNESS: Correct.
21 THE COURT: If there are other areas in your
22 affidavit -- there were some areas in your
23 affidavit, quite frankly, that were not of interest
24 to me.
25 THE WITNESS: Yes.
1658
1 THE COURT: By that, I mean they might have
2 involved something else, whatever.
3 THE WITNESS: Right.
4 THE COURT: If there is anything that is in
5 there that you feel Mr. Dandar was responsible for
6 or a part of, then you will have to bring that to my
7 attention.
8 THE WITNESS: Okay.
9 THE COURT: I sure do not want to go, get
10 through this hearing and then have another hearing
11 on something somebody later remembers that
12 Mr. Dandar told somebody to lie about. I want to
13 know everything that Mr. Dandar is involved in, in
14 this hearing, as far as it is known.
15 THE WITNESS: Yes. I mean -- well, with regard
16 to that affidavit, you know, I'm confident that
17 those areas were covered and that there weren't any
18 other things that were in that affidavit that
19 related to Mr. Dandar unless it's stated so. I
20 believe it related to just those three main areas.
21 THE COURT: Okay.
22 BY MR. DANDAR:
23 Q Now --
24 THE WITNESS: You know -- I mean, your Honor, I
25 don't remember whether -- you know, I recounted it
1659
1 was covered in the affidavit. But, you know, the --
2 you know, talking on the 28th or 29th and talking
3 about discussions that required me to come down and
4 talk about these two checks, you know, I don't know
5 whether I detailed that in the affidavit. I talked
6 about it in the affidavit and what Mr. Dandar told
7 me to concentrate on. But, you know, there were --
8 there were more than one discussion about that, you
9 know, on the 29th and 30th. You know, I didn't
10 repeat each discussion, I don't think, you know.
11 But it was the same thing. It wasn't different
12 things. It was the same thing said a different day.
13 THE COURT: Okay.
14 BY MR. DANDAR:
15 Q Since you talked to -- or had your lawyer talk to
16 Mr. Rosen and Mr. Pope in February of 2002 to discuss a
17 settlement of some kind, did the Church of Scientology know
18 in advance that you had caused to be issued a UBS check in
19 March of 2002 to me?
20 A Not that they've ever revealed to me, or implied,
21 or any other thing.
22 Q And if I asked you this before, again, I apologize
23 in advance. But in your meeting with Mr. Rosen in New York
24 City, didn't he mention RICO and money laundering?
25 A He mentioned RICO. As I described to you,
1660
1 concerning how much they had spent on a potential RICO suit.
2 He never brought the words "money laundering" up, to my
3 memory.
4 Q Were you present when Stacy Brooks testified to
5 money laundering being a subject in New York City?
6 A No, I wasn't.
7 Q I mean, in this hearing?
8 A I wasn't.
9 Q Have you ever paid anyone directly, either through
10 your checks, UBS checks or the LMT checks, to testify in the
11 Lisa McPherson case?
12 A No.
13 Q During your meetings with Mr. Rinder in
14 Clearwater, was it ever mentioned at all about RICO or money
15 laundering?
16 A No. Not a single time.
17 Q Was there ever a mention by Ben Shaw, his
18 subordinate, of money laundering or RICO?
19 A No.
20 THE COURT: A subordinate of RICO?
21 MR. DANDAR: A subordinate of Mr. Rinder's.
22 THE COURT: Okay. I think you forgot that.
23 MR. DANDAR: Sorry.
24 THE COURT: Okay.
25
1661
1 BY MR. DANDAR:
2 Q Have you ever agreed to -- either you or Stacy
3 Brooks -- to go to California to testify in the Wollersheim
4 case?
5 A I haven't. I don't know whether Stacy has. I
6 don't think she has.
7 Q Well, Mr. Rosen mentioned that in the transcript
8 of the determining sanctions hearing that he filed that you
9 and Ms. Brooks had agreed to come to California --
10 THE COURT: No. No, he didn't.
11 MR. DANDAR: Something to that effect. I
12 didn't get that right.
13 THE COURT: Well, I got it right.
14 MR. DANDAR: Okay.
15 THE COURT: And what he said was he had reason
16 to think that they might agree to come, but he had
17 to talk to her lawyer to see whether or not he would
18 agree to let her come. Whether I would release her,
19 in other words, when she was done. And, if not,
20 then he planned to use a transcript because
21 Mr. Armstrong was co-counsel here.
22 THE WITNESS: Mr. Leipold.
23 MR. DANDAR: Mr. Leipold was co-counsel.
24 THE COURT: I'm sorry, Mr. Leipold.
25 Mr. Armstrong, I guess, isn't a lawyer. So
1662
1 Mr. Leipold was co-counsel.
2 So he did not -- he said he hoped that she
3 would come. He hoped he would be able to present
4 her there. But he did not say for sure that she was
5 coming, I don't believe. I could be corrected if
6 I'm wrong.
7 MR. DANDAR: All right.
8 THE WITNESS: Well, just to be sure and answer
9 the question, nobody ever asked me to go there. And
10 I didn't hear anybody ask Stacy Brooks to go there.
11 BY MR. DANDAR:
12 Q Okay. When is the first time that you talked to
13 anyone from the Church of Scientology about the counterclaim
14 filed in the Lisa McPherson death case?
15 THE COURT: I'm sorry. I was writing. What
16 was your question again, Counsel?
17 BY MR. DANDAR:
18 Q When is the first time you talked to anyone from
19 the Church of Scientology in 2002 about the counterclaim
20 filed in the Lisa McPherson case?
21 A I don't think we -- well, the first time it came
22 up was with Mr. Rosen with the preview copy. It wasn't
23 discussed, though.
24 Q Okay. Showing you as a defendant?
25 A Yes.
1663
1 Q All right.
2 A I'm just trying to remember whether --
3 THE COURT: This was in New York on the --
4 THE WITNESS: Yes, the first day.
5 THE COURT: This was a draft copy?
6 THE WITNESS: What they called a preview copy.
7 THE COURT: He didn't tell you it had already
8 been filed?
9 THE WITNESS: He didn't.
10 THE COURT: It had, hadn't it, a long time
11 before then?
12 MR. MOXON: The counterclaim wasn't changed,
13 your Honor.
14 THE COURT: Pardon me?
15 MR. MOXON: It added Mr. Minton's name. You
16 ordered it to be added.
17 THE COURT: But, I mean, a very similar -- the
18 counterclaim had been filed long before?
19 MR. MOXON: Yes. Long ago.
20 THE WITNESS: This was a motion to add me, the
21 preview copy, is what I meant.
22 THE COURT: Okay.
23 THE WITNESS: To add me individually.
24 THE COURT: Okay.
25
1664
1 BY MR. DANDAR:
2 Q Okay. Now, you -- of course you do remember
3 testifying again before Judge Baird on April 19th?
4 A I remember being there. I don't -- I don't know
5 what you are asking me about.
6 Q Well, do you remember Mr. Lirot cross-examining
7 you on April 19th in front of Judge Baird?
8 A Yes.
9 Q And just to make sure, you don't remember if you
10 met with anyone from the Church of Scientology or not before
11 you were cross-examined by Mr. Lirot on April 19th, other
12 than the April 15th meeting?
13 A I don't.
14 Q Is it more likely that you met with
15 representatives of the Church of Scientology before you
16 appeared for testimony on April 19th?
17 A More likely than --
18 Q Than not?
19 A -- than not? As I said, you know, I don't have a
20 record of any of the meetings during that time period. We
21 didn't take contemporaneous notes of these dates or who we
22 met with. It's possible, Mr. Dandar. I just don't
23 remember.
24 Q Mr. Minton, what is your -- is it your testimony
25 that I told you that I wanted you to hide only the May 2000
1665
1 check?
2 A No.
3 Q Okay, what is your testimony?
4 A That you wanted me to not disclose the May 2000
5 check and the March 2002 check.
6 Q So any of the checks in between you can disclose
7 all you want?
8 A We didn't discuss those. I mean, most of them had
9 already been presented as -- you know, or testified about in
10 depositions. You know, and the Church of Scientology got --
11 you know, through the bank records, they got the $250,000
12 check from Bank of America, you know. There weren't any
13 other checks except for those two.
14 Q Your testimony is from May 2000 until the Bank of
15 America check in 2001, there weren't any other checks in
16 between?
17 A I don't think there were. I could look at my
18 list, but I don't think there were.
19 Q Do you recall, at the first board of directors
20 meeting of the Lisa McPherson Trust, that you said, "I'm
21 gifting $3 million to the Lisa McPherson Trust to operate
22 for three years. After that it's on its own"?
23 A No. In fact, I made a different statement than
24 that.
25 Q What was your statement, as you recall?
1666
1 A That I would provide $300,000 a year for three
2 years.
3 Q Do you think anything of your statement about what
4 you would provide the Lisa McPherson Trust is on videotape?
5 A Probably it is.
6 THE COURT: Mr. Minton, I'm looking at these
7 checks of yours, because I wasn't sure myself.
8 The first UBS check is dated May 1, 2000. The
9 next UBS check is dated March 7, 2002.
10 THE WITNESS: Right.
11 THE COURT: There is a May 25th, '01 for
12 $250,000 in between those times.
13 THE WITNESS: That is the Bank of America check
14 that I mentioned, your Honor.
15 THE COURT: Okay.
16 THE WITNESS: That is the Bank of America, is
17 that right?
18 THE COURT: Yes. But I thought you said you
19 didn't think there had been any checks in between.
20 THE WITNESS: No. No. No. Other than that
21 Bank of America check.
22 THE COURT: Other than? All right. I'm sorry.
23 I misunderstood you.
24 BY MR. DANDAR:
25 Q Okay. When is the next time you met with a
1667
1 representative of the Church of Scientology after the
2 hearing before Judge Baird of April 19th?
3 A I -- I just don't know. But there would have been
4 meetings, you know, at that time period.
5 Q What do you recall in reference to somebody
6 talking to you about you need to do a second affidavit?
7 A Well, I think from the beginning Stacy Brooks and
8 I talked about doing a big affidavit.
9 Q What --
10 A And we went through -- well, I think in one of the
11 meetings that we had in the early days, we said that to
12 Scientology, that we wanted to do a larger affidavit.
13 Q Before or after you did your first affidavit?
14 A Mmm, I think before.
15 Q And what meeting was this at?
16 A I don't know which one it was.
17 Q So before you sat down with Mr. Howie and
18 Ms. Brooks to write your first recantation affidavit, you
19 had already told the Church of Scientology that you were
20 going to write two affidavits, one being a small one and one
21 being a big one?
22 A Right.
23 Q Why?
24 A Well, the purpose of the small one was to deal
25 with -- you know, based on advice, that we needed to deal
1668
1 with these recantation things as quickly as possible. And
2 the small one was the way to do that the quickest and most
3 efficiently.
4 Q And without telling me what was said if it's from
5 your lawyer, who is the one that advised you to do the first
6 one as quick as possible?
7 A My attorney.
8 Q Oh. What is your understanding why you needed to
9 do an affidavit as soon as possible?
10 A Because of the perjury.
11 Q Now, because of the perjury that you recant in
12 your first affidavit? Or the one you recant in your second
13 affidavit?
14 A Because of the perjury that we recanted in our
15 first affidavits, collectively speaking, of Stacy Brooks and
16 myself.
17 Q Was Stacy Brooks writing her affidavit with you
18 when you were meeting on the 17th of April with Mr. Howie?
19 A Mmm, at some stage I -- I don't know. At some
20 stage Mr. McGowan came to Mr. Howie's office and -- and I
21 think she had prepared hers with Mr. McGowan earlier, and it
22 was a question of going to his office to sign it. But I
23 believe that what happened is he E-mailed it over, you know,
24 and he came later. And I believe that, you know, that
25 Mr. Howie, or Mr. McGowan on Mr. Howie's computer, you know,
1669
1 did hers.
2 Q Who printed out your affidavit, your first one?
3 A Mr. Howie.
4 Q At his office?
5 A Yes.
6 Q And who printed out Ms. Brooks' affidavit?
7 A Well, I believe -- I believe it was printed out at
8 Mr. Howie's office by either Mr. McGowan or Mr. Howie. I
9 don't remember the sequence of who was there when. But I
10 know Mr. McGowan E-mailed it over to Mr. Howie, then
11 Mr. McGowan showed up at Mr. Howie's office.
12 Q Did you meet with representatives of the Church of
13 Scientology before you composed your second recantation
14 affidavit?
15 A Yes.
16 Q Did they have any input at all into your second
17 recantation affidavit?
18 A They looked at it.
19 Q And where did -- where were they at when they
20 looked at it?
21 A I believe we were in Mr. Pope's office.
22 Q Okay. So where did you compose your second
23 recantation affidavit?
24 A In several places. At the hotel. At the LMT
25 office. In Mr. Pope's office. You know, Stacy and I sat in
1670
1 a conference room at Mr. Pope's office one day. I was
2 dictating to her.
3 Q Was she typing it? Or writing it out?
4 A Typing it into the computer.
5 Q And where did she go to do her second recantation
6 affidavit?
7 A Just to back up and give you a little background
8 on this, what happened is Ms. Brooks and I tried to make a
9 time line. And from that time line, we wrote up narratives
10 of -- well, at least -- not in -- in my case. Her case was
11 a little bit different. We wrote up this time line
12 together.
13 I took basically the testimony that was done in
14 Judge Baird's court concerning the two areas that were
15 covered there, I took the information from the material that
16 we received from the Church of Scientology, that covered a
17 third area and, you know, put together a narrative, and from
18 that narrative, reduced it -- you know, I had that printed
19 out in front of me. Then I dictated from -- you know, using
20 that, to Ms. Brooks to put it in some sort of quasi-legal
21 form.
22 Q Did Mr. Pope know you were in his office when you
23 were doing your second recantation affidavit?
24 A He knew we were in his office at some time. I
25 don't know whether it was that time period.
1671
1 Q Did you ever meet with him?
2 A We -- I met with him because he opened the side
3 door one afternoon, I think it was a weekend. The person
4 who was supposed to come to open up the office didn't show
5 up on time. And I think he came over and opened up the
6 office. And he was standing at the side door.
7 Q When you were composing your second recantation
8 affidavit, either at the LMT or Mr. Pope's office, was there
9 anybody from the Church of Scientology present?
10 A There was nobody present at the LMT or at the
11 hotel. There were people from the Church of Scientology
12 present in the -- Mr. Pope's office while we were working on
13 this, yes, not -- not necessarily in the same room we were
14 working on it.
15 Q Before you went to Mr. Pope's -- was Mr. Pope's
16 office the last place you went to as you were composing your
17 recantation affidavit number two?
18 A Was it the last place?
19 Q Yes.
20 A Well --
21 Q Before the final product was printed?
22 A Well, no, it wasn't.
23 Q Okay. Did you print out a draft of your second
24 recantation affidavit before you went to Mr. Pope's office?
25 A Yes.
1672
1 Q Did you send it to anyone before you went to his
2 office?
3 A Not that I'm aware of.
4 Q Did you show it to a representative of the Church
5 of Scientology for comment?
6 A I showed them a draft at some stage. Yes.
7 Q All right. When did you show them a draft?
8 A Well, I -- I don't remember exactly. Sometime
9 before it was done.
10 Q Well --
11 THE COURT: Sometime after it was done but
12 before the final product, is that what you're
13 saying?
14 THE WITNESS: Sometime -- yes, sometime after
15 the draft, that draft. I think, you know, I did a
16 bunch of drafts. But sometime before a draft and
17 the final draft done at Mr. Howie's office.
18 BY MR. DANDAR:
19 Q How many drafts of the second recantation
20 affidavit did you do?
21 A A couple. Maybe three.
22 Q And how many of those did you show to a
23 representative of the Church of Scientology?
24 A Maybe two of those.
25 Q And why did you do it that way? Why did you show
1673
1 them anything?
2 A Well, I mean, they were obviously interested in
3 it. And, you know, I was interested in them reading it.
4 Q Why were they interested in your recantation
5 affidavit?
6 A Well, just -- just to clarify here, this wasn't --
7 it was, to some extent, but it was not a recantation
8 affidavit, per se. It was -- it was condensing a narrative
9 account of what had gone on into something that was
10 affidavit-type form. I mean, I'd never done an affidavit,
11 you know. I would be generally more verbose than an
12 affidavit.
13 Q Well, Ms. Brooks certainly had experience in doing
14 affidavits.
15 A Well, she had certainly done a lot of them, from
16 what I have seen of the stack up here.
17 Q She edited your harassment time line. Was she not
18 editing your declaration and affidavit of recantation?
19 A She did, you know, make some suggestions.
20 Q Well, you certainly didn't need the Church of
21 Scientology representative to help you edit and make it a
22 clear, precise statement of your affidavit, did you?
23 A No. But I thought it was important to let them
24 see exactly what I was saying.
25 Q Isn't it true, Mr. Minton, that you showed them
1674
1 several drafts of your recantation effort number two to make
2 sure it was acceptable to them?
3 A No. Absolutely not.
4 Q To make sure it covered all of the points that
5 they wanted you to cover?
6 A They didn't ask me to cover any points.
7 Q They had no input whatsoever when you showed them
8 several drafts of your second affidavit?
9 A Yes. They had some comments on it.
10 Q Okay. Who is the one that made the first comment?
11 A The first comment?
12 Q Yes.
13 A Oh, I don't know, you know, either Mr. Rinder or
14 Ms. Yingling.
15 Q Okay. What did Mr. Rinder say about your first
16 draft that you showed him?
17 THE COURT: The first? Or second? Whichever
18 one it was, does it matter?
19 MR. DANDAR: No.
20 A You know, of the couple drafts that I might have
21 shown them, I believe Mr. Rinder commented on it. You know,
22 it may have only been one draft that I showed them. I don't
23 remember. But it might have been two.
24 BY MR. DANDAR:
25 Q And it might have been three?
1675
1 A No, I don't -- I don't think I did that many
2 drafts.
3 Q Did you show them at least two?
4 A Mmm, I think it could have been two.
5 Q Okay. What did Mr. Rinder say?
6 A Mmm, you know, I don't remember what he said. He
7 didn't -- you know, we were -- we were trying to be guided
8 by one overriding principle.
9 Q What was that overriding principle?
10 A To -- you know, based upon advice, we were trying
11 to drive the ball down the middle of the fairway.
12 Q All right. What does that mean?
13 A That means don't do -- don't say anything to favor
14 the Church of Scientology, and don't say anything to favor
15 Mr. Dandar, try to keep it down the middle.
16 Q Well, what's wrong with someone just saying, "Why
17 don't you just tell the truth and let the chips fall where
18 they may"?
19 A Well, that is what the advice we had was, tell the
20 truth, i.e., go right down the middle. You know, I'm just
21 trying to use an analogy here.
22 Q See, I don't want you to use an analogy. I want
23 you to tell me exactly what Mr. Rinder said. Did Mr. Rinder
24 say drive the ball down the middle of the fairway?
25 A No, he didn't.
1676
1 Q Well, so what is the principle that Mr. Rinder
2 announced to you that you should follow in doing your second
3 affidavit?
4 A Mr. Rinder didn't give us a principle. On the
5 advice of people who were giving us advice, just try to
6 drive the ball right down the middle of the fairway.
7 Q Was there anyone giving you advice other than your
8 counsel, Mr. Howie or Mr. Jonas?
9 A No.
10 Q Was Mr. Jonas involved in this at all?
11 A Mmm, only to the extent that he knew what was
12 going on.
13 Q Okay. So let's get back to Mr. Rinder's comments
14 about your drafts. What did he say to you?
15 A You know, I -- I don't remember what he said.
16 That's -- that's the simplicity of it. I just don't
17 remember what he said. You know, he -- he -- you know,
18 there wasn't a lot of doubt in my mind that, you know, he
19 would have preferred the ball to be driven down the
20 Scientology side of the fairway. I mean, that was my
21 impression, you know. He didn't say that, but that was my
22 impression.
23 Q So you can't remember anything that he said?
24 A I can't.
25 Q On any of the meetings that you had with him on
1677
1 any of the drafts?
2 A No, because, you know, the meetings on these
3 drafts were not extensive meetings. It was mainly just to
4 let him see it.
5 Q And you are positive, though, aren't you, that
6 these meetings took place after the April 19th hearing?
7 A Mmm, no, I'm not positive of that. But I -- I
8 just -- I don't know. But it took place before the thing
9 was signed. You know, from the time -- from the time we
10 got -- well, I guess after the recantation affidavit, from
11 the 17th to the 24th, would have been the time period in
12 which I would have been working on my affidavit.
13 Q Well, your affidavit number one is dated
14 April 17th. It was mailed out -- or sent out by your
15 attorney, Mr. Howie, on the 18th of April.
16 A Right.
17 Q The hearing was on the 19th of April.
18 Did you meet with Mr. Rinder about your second
19 affidavit before the hearing of April 19th?
20 A You know, I could have.
21 Q Did you meet with Mr. Rinder about your second
22 affidavit, which is dated April 24th, after the April 19th
23 hearing?
24 A I could have. You know, what I'm saying is I
25 don't know the dates of these meetings. Ms. Brooks and I
1678
1 didn't write them down. I just don't know the dates.
2 Q And when you met with Mr. Rinder on any time, it
3 was always in Mr. Pope's office?
4 A Mmm, no. I met with him other places.
5 Q Where?
6 A Mmm, I think I met him at the Hilton Hotel on
7 Clearwater Beach. I met with him at another hotel between
8 Tampa and Clearwater.
9 Q Which one?
10 A I think it was the -- it's a Marriott at the end
11 of the causeway.
12 Q There is a Hyatt there.
13 A No, that is the one I'm staying at. No. On the
14 other end of the causeway. There is a Marriott just
15 below -- just after the -- just after the -- after the
16 Bayside Bridge, is it, on the right-hand side, coming from
17 Tampa.
18 Q No. I mean, no, as far as I know.
19 A It's -- it's a Marriott property. I think it goes
20 with a different name, but I don't remember the name.
21 Q All right.
22 A But it's definitely a Marriott.
23 Q When you met at other hotels, was Mr. Rinder
24 staying at those hotels?
25 A No.
1679
1 Q Ms. Yingling?
2 A No.
3 Q Did you ever meet with Mr. Rinder alone, just you
4 and him, about your second April 24th affidavit?
5 A No.
6 Q Did you ever meet with anyone from the Church of
7 Scientology without Stacy Brooks being with you?
8 A Yes.
9 Q When? When was the first time?
10 A I don't -- I don't remember. But I met with
11 Mr. Rinder a number of times on my own.
12 Q Was it before you signed your April 24th
13 affidavit?
14 A I don't believe so.
15 Q Okay. Now, did Ms. Yingling -- since you can't
16 remember anything that Mr. Rinder said, did Ms. Yingling
17 give you any comments at all about your drafts of your
18 April -- what turned out to be your April 24th affidavit?
19 A Mmm, you know, whatever -- whatever comments they
20 made, they pretty much were making together, you know.
21 Q Were any of your attorneys present when you showed
22 your drafts of your second recantation affidavit to
23 Mr. Rinder and Ms. Yingling?
24 A No -- you are talking about the second affidavit?
25 Q Yes.
1680
1 A No.
2 Q On April 19th do you recall Ms. Yingling being in
3 the courtroom in front of Judge Baird in the audience
4 section?
5 A I didn't recall that she was there.
6 Q Okay. Do you recall the Church of Scientology
7 invoking the rule of sequestration at the hearing on
8 April 19th?
9 A Mmm, I remember somebody invoking the rule.
10 Q Do you remember Judge Baird saying that everyone
11 who is going to be a witness, you can't talk to anybody
12 about your testimony?
13 A Yes.
14 Q And yet you were meeting in secret with Michael
15 Rinder and Ms. Yingling, of the Church of Scientology, after
16 that April 19th hearing, weren't you?
17 A Well, I said, you know, we might have met during
18 that time, but I don't believe I was sequestered. I was a
19 party. And I don't think we discussed any testimony.
20 Q Well, you were preparing the second recantation
21 affidavit?
22 A Well, I said we probably met during that time
23 period. I don't know a date that we met. You know, I can't
24 give you a date that we met during that time, but I believe
25 that we met during the time period from after that
1681
1 recantation affidavit up until the 24th of April.
2 THE COURT: Mr. Dandar, you have to step it up.
3 MR. DANDAR: I know. I'm sorry.
4 THE COURT: I'm having a hard time staying
5 awake.
6 MR. DANDAR: I'm sorry.
7 BY MR. DANDAR:
8 Q So you continued to meet with Mr. Rinder and
9 Ms. Yingling after you signed your second affidavit?
10 A Well, I certainly did after that. Yes.
11 Q Was Ms. Brooks present when you showed your
12 drafts of your second affidavit to Ms. Yingling and
13 Mr. Rinder?
14 A I believe she was.
15 Q Did she show drafts of her second affidavit to
16 Ms. Yingling and Mr. Rinder?
17 A You mean at the same time?
18 Q Yes.
19 A Well, I don't believe she started working on her
20 affidavit until after I'd finished mine because I was using
21 her computer skills to type.
22 Q Did you change anything, modify in any manner
23 whatsoever, any of your drafts of your affidavit based upon
24 your meetings with Mr. Rinder and Ms. Yingling?
25 A No, I don't believe I did.
1682
1 Q You didn't add anything or take anything out?
2 A No.
3 Q Didn't change a sentence or --
4 THE COURT: Counselor, Counselor, I'm not going
5 to have it a third time. He's not going to change
6 his testimony once he says it twice, so don't ask it
7 again.
8 MR. DANDAR: Okay. Sorry.
9 BY MR. DANDAR:
10 Q Now, do you recall going to Jesse Prince's house
11 in April of 2002 for --
12 A April --
13 Q -- Stacy Brooks' birthday party or something like
14 this?
15 THE COURT: Didn't we cover this?
16 MR. FUGATE: Asked and answered, I thought.
17 THE COURT: I thought we did. Maybe it was
18 with Ms. Brooks.
19 MR. DANDAR: I think it was.
20 THE COURT: I can't swear to it.
21 MR. WEINBERG: Unfortunately, I think it was.
22 THE COURT: I think it was, too.
23 MR. WEINBERG: I'm trying to be quiet, but --
24 MR. DANDAR: That is two on one again, but --
25 THE COURT: No, actually, he was on your side
1683
1 that time.
2 MR. DANDAR: Thank you, Mr. Weinberg.
3 MR. WEINBERG: I should have stayed quiet, I
4 suppose.
5 BY MR. DANDAR:
6 Q Do you recall doing that?
7 A Well, we didn't go there for a birthday party. We
8 went there after the hearing in Judge Baird's court on
9 April 9th. That is not her birthday.
10 Q Did you go any time after that?
11 A To Jesse Prince's house?
12 Q Yes.
13 A Not that I know of.
14 Q In fact -- well, let me ask you this. After
15 April 14th, that Sunday, have you -- did you schedule
16 yourself in any manner to go to Jesse Prince's house for a
17 barbecue?
18 A Yes.
19 Q And did you cancel that after you called up your
20 attorney and said, "I'm going to Jesse's for a barbecue"?
21 A Yes, I did.
22 Q What was the date of that barbecue?
23 A Well, Mmm, Jesse called up -- I don't know the
24 date. But I believe it was a weekend. Sunday, I think.
25 THE COURT: Is this before this sort of -- sort
1684
1 of the last meeting where you-all parted --
2 THE WITNESS: It was after that, your Honor.
3 THE COURT: Oh, it was?
4 THE WITNESS: Yes. Yes.
5 A Mmm, Mr. Prince, just like he did yesterday, in
6 fact, he called up Stacy Brooks and said that he wanted to
7 talk to me, and that, you know, he wanted to sort of, you
8 know, make up. And Stacy handed the phone over to me.
9 And I said, "Jesse, you know, I'm really not sure.
10 You know, we're sort of sequestered witnesses in Judge
11 Baird's case."
12 He said, "Look, Bob, we don't have to -- Bobby,"
13 as he calls me, he said, "Bobby, look. There are a million
14 things in the world we can talk about besides any of this
15 stuff, you know. I just cleaned out the garage today. I
16 got the barbecue grill out. I know how much you love
17 barbecue. You know, the kids are having a couple of friends
18 over, you know, and I can barbecue for all of us. Why don't
19 you come on over anyway. We don't have to discuss any of
20 this."
21 And I -- you know, contrary to common sense, you
22 know, I said okay.
23 And then I got off the phone. I believe I called
24 Mr. Howie. And, afterwards, I called Mr. Prince back and
25 said I couldn't come.
1685
1 And he said, "Okay. Look," he said, "there are no
2 hard feelings. I understand. Tonight when we're finished
3 with the barbecue I'm going to drop off a package of
4 barbecue at the Hyatt Westshore for you."
5 Q Did he do that?
6 A I said, "Great." No, he never brought the
7 barbecue.
8 Q Now, was this before or after you signed your
9 third affidavit also dated April 24th that concerned Jesse
10 Prince?
11 A I don't know when it was. It was a Sunday, I
12 believe. Stacy and I -- I remember we were in the car and
13 we were headed down to the 33 North Ft. Harrison office, the
14 old LMT office, when this conversation took place -- or
15 when -- when I called him back about it.
16 The first part of the conversation took place
17 while I was at the Hyatt Westshore. And then, you know, I
18 called my attorney. And then I called Mr. Prince.
19 Q So you agree that your second affidavit of
20 April 24th has a lot more in it than simply Bob Minton
21 wanting to tell recantations of his prior alleged perjury?
22 A I never claimed it was a recantation affidavit.
23 It is to some extent. But it was basically, you know, a
24 narrative account reduced into some sort of affidavit form
25 to explain what had gone on in this case.
1686
1 Q For instance, Paragraph 13, you say: "Mr. Dandar
2 encouraged me to get as much negative media about
3 Scientology as possible. And I gave media interviews
4 whenever I could."
5 A That is correct.
6 Q Is that a truthful statement, Mr. Minton?
7 A It is, Mr. Dandar. I mean --
8 Q Have I ever participated with you in a picketing?
9 A You were at pickets that I was at. You know --
10 MR. FUGATE: Judge, this is asked and answered.
11 THE COURT: Sustained.
12 MR. DANDAR: Was it?
13 THE COURT: Yes, it was. We've been through
14 this.
15 MR. DANDAR: All right. I'm sorry.
16 THE COURT: Really and truly, what are you
17 going to gain by going through his affidavit and
18 then saying, "Is that true?"
19 Well, he said it under oath. He's going to say
20 it's true. We have to wait for you, if you think
21 it's not true. That is no good for you to ask him
22 those kinds of questions.
23 MR. DANDAR: Well, we've had some recent
24 revelations of under-oath testimony like the ones on
25 April 8th. But I'll go on to something else.
1687
1 THE COURT: Well, we may have. But those were
2 not things that were in the affidavit.
3 BY MR. DANDAR:
4 Q Mr. Minton, did you and I enter into some
5 agreement of whatever kind to add on David Miscavige as a
6 party defendant in the wrongful death case?
7 A No, we didn't. You know, I testified exactly --
8 THE COURT: Yes, I think we've been over that,
9 just over it and over it. Really, I do.
10 MR. DANDAR: I -- not this part.
11 THE COURT: Okay.
12 BY MR. DANDAR:
13 Q Mr. Minton, did you make a deal with Dell
14 Liebreich to permit you to use the Lisa McPherson wrongful
15 death case to harass defendants' witnesses?
16 A No, I didn't make any deal with Dell Liebreich,
17 not on that.
18 Q Did you make any deal with Dell Liebreich to make
19 false allegations against the Church of Scientology in the
20 Lisa McPherson wrongful death case?
21 A Did I make any deal with her to do that?
22 Q Yes.
23 A No.
24 Q Did you pay me, Ken Dandar, $100,000 in February
25 of '98 so that I would go out and get a court order to
1688
1 obtain the PC folders of Lisa McPherson?
2 A Mmm, no. There wasn't any specific charge with
3 that money.
4 Q Did you ever pay me money so that I would attack
5 the religious beliefs of the Church of Scientology?
6 A I didn't have to.
7 Q So the answer is no?
8 A The answer is no.
9 Q Mr. Minton, did I have any involvement whatsoever
10 in having the Lisa McPherson Trust hire Teresa Summers?
11 A I don't think you did.
12 Q Did Teresa Summers get paid by the LMT as an
13 employee?
14 A She did, I'm quite certain.
15 Q And did she get paid because she provided work
16 services at the LMT?
17 A Sure. That is what she was doing there.
18 Q And Jesse Prince got paid to provide services at
19 the LMT?
20 A Well, Jesse was a little different in the sense
21 that he was also doing stuff for you. But, yes, he got paid
22 for work that he did at the LMT.
23 Q Okay. Do you know if anyone paid Karsten,
24 K-A-R-S-T-E-N, Lorenzen, L-O-R-E-N-Z-E-N, from Denmark? Did
25 anyone pay him to testify in his deposition in the Lisa
1689
1 McPherson wrongful death case?
2 A I don't have any knowledge of what Mr. Lorenzen
3 did, although I know he testified.
4 THE COURT: Who is he?
5 MR. DANDAR: He's a former Scientologist who
6 was on an isolation watch, watching someone who was
7 flown over from Flag about six months after Lisa
8 McPherson died who was in pretty bad shape and he
9 watched her in Denmark. He was -- he had a similar
10 type experience, except that person lived.
11 BY MR. DANDAR:
12 Q Mr. Minton, have you tampered with witnesses who
13 were witnesses for the Church of Scientology by -- excuse
14 me, have you tampered with witnesses who are witnesses for
15 the estate of Lisa McPherson by sending them to Well Spring?
16 A It wasn't -- you know, I wouldn't consider it at
17 all witness tampering. I mean, I sent them to Well Spring.
18 Q Who did you send to Well Spring and why? Compound
19 question, but just do it.
20 A Well, Stacy Brooks, Jesse Prince. And I didn't
21 send him, but I paid for him to go there. Vaughn Young.
22 Q And did Jesse Prince go on his own?
23 A What do you mean, did he go on his own?
24 Q Did he say, "Yeah, that is a good idea, I'll go to
25 Well Spring"?
1690
1 A I think it took some cajoling by Stacy and myself
2 to go. He didn't want to go.
3 Q And do you know if that caused him to change his
4 opinions about the Church of Scientology?
5 A I'm pretty certain it would have.
6 Q How?
7 A Well, I think the -- the information given at Well
8 Spring, you know, tends to make someone be more likely to
9 dislike the organization from which they've come out of.
10 Q Are you saying that Jesse Prince voiced no
11 negative opinions about the Church of Scientology before he
12 went to Well Spring?
13 A Oh, no. He -- he's -- he still voices very
14 negative opinions. Whether they are more or less -- you
15 know, I can't say that Well Spring made a huge impact one
16 way or another. But I believe it would have made an impact
17 on how he felt.
18 Q Did Vaughn Young change his opinions about
19 Scientology after going through Well Spring?
20 A I haven't discussed it with him.
21 Q In fact, both Vaughn Young and Stacy Brooks signed
22 declarations before and after going to Well Spring with the
23 same negative opinions concerning the Church of Scientology,
24 isn't that true?
25 A Well, I can't say whether it is true or not. All
1691
1 I can say is I don't think either one of them have written a
2 favorable affidavit about Scientology --
3 Q Okay.
4 A -- to my knowledge.
5 Q And you agreed -- and you did pay for Jesse Prince
6 to go to Well Spring, correct?
7 A Mmm, well, yeah, I did. I mean, the way it worked
8 is, you know, I paid the money to Well Spring's victim
9 assistance fund, but it was earmarked for Jesse.
10 Q Did Well Spring know it was earmarked?
11 A Yes.
12 Q And did you do that because you wanted him to
13 testify better for the estate in the Lisa McPherson case?
14 A Mmm --
15 Q Or did you do it for another reason?
16 A I did it because I thought it would be helpful to
17 him.
18 Q To him?
19 A Yes. As a person.
20 Q Okay. The same for Vaughn Young?
21 A You know, he was having a difficult time, you
22 know. Stacy had been there, and she thought it would be
23 helpful for him. I had nothing to do with deciding or
24 suggesting he go there. That was purely a matter between, I
25 think, Stacy and Vaughn.
1692
1 Q Did you send Stacy -- pay for Stacy Brooks to go
2 to Well Spring because you were -- wanted to help her
3 personally or because you thought she would make a better
4 consultant to the estate of Lisa McPherson?
5 A To help her personally. I mean, you know, that
6 was the way it was.
7 Q Mr. Minton, did you go out and -- in Clearwater,
8 Pinellas County, and intimidate witnesses who were on the
9 witness list of the Church of Scientology in this case?
10 A Mmm, I don't -- I believe that I probably did, you
11 know, by the activities along the side of the Clearwater
12 Bank building, in which all of the Church employees were
13 going to meals three times a day.
14 Q And what activities was that? Picketing?
15 A Picketing. You know, loud talking.
16 Q Did I tell you to do that?
17 A Mmm, on occasion you said -- like, for example,
18 with regard to that headliner in the St. Pete Times, "Go get
19 a hat" or whatever --
20 THE WITNESS: I'm sorry, your Honor.
21 THE COURT: I'm lost. I'm sorry.
22 MR. DANDAR: To let you know, Judge --
23 A Well, I did testify about this already. But about
24 the time that -- the morning that the St. Petersburg Times
25 article, front page article, came out about David Miscavige
1693
1 being added as a defendant in the case, you said "Take that
2 newspaper out there and --"
3 THE COURT: Vulgar word?
4 A "-- stick it somewhere."
5 BY MR. DANDAR:
6 Q Really. You are attributing that statement to me?
7 A That is what you said.
8 Q Okay.
9 A I think it was -- you know --
10 Q Outside of picketing -- I'm sorry, did I
11 interrupt?
12 A Whether it was "stick" or "shove," you know, it
13 was -- you get the gist of what I'm talking about.
14 Q Outside of the picketing, did you do anything else
15 to harass witnesses that were listed by the Church of
16 Scientology in this case?
17 A Mmm, well, you know, I -- I -- Stacy Brooks and I
18 went to Bennetta Slaughter's house that evening. You know,
19 I don't think that was -- I don't think we meant to harass
20 her as a witness. But we did go out there.
21 Q That is all on video, isn't it?
22 A It's -- well, the -- the lens cap, I think, was on
23 the camera and Stacy was trying to figure out how to use the
24 camera. It's not on video. You know, there is some sound
25 to it, but there is not much in the way of pictures.
1694
1 Q Is it your testimony I told you to go to Bennetta
2 Slaughter's house to harass her?
3 A No.
4 Q In fact, she wasn't even at the house, was she?
5 A We never knew whether she was there or not.
6 Q Is it your testimony that all of the picketing you
7 conducted or others conducted at the Lisa McPherson Trust
8 was all at my direction?
9 A No. I never said that, Mr. Dandar.
10 Q Okay. What was at my direction?
11 A You know, what -- well, basically getting in
12 Scientology's face, getting as much publicity as possible,
13 negative publicity, about Scientology.
14 I mean, you know, going back to 1998, that
15 Dateline show that spent months being filmed, I mean, you
16 were just dying for them to get me to do anything about the
17 Lisa McPherson case, the same with the SAT-1, the German
18 television show, which was filmed, you know, a few months
19 earlier, I think, than the Dateline thing started. You
20 wanted me to get Stephan Strothe, producer of the show, to
21 talk to you, and he did. There was, you know, plenty of
22 Lisa McPherson material in that show.
23 You know, Dateline wouldn't go along with the
24 McPherson thing -- the McPherson death situation because,
25 you know, it had been covered too much in the media and they
1695
1 didn't want -- you know, they felt that they would get
2 hassled if they started covering something that had already
3 been covered extensively on their network and CBS and ABC.
4 You know, I believe that when the reporter from
5 the Baltimore -- I think it was the Baltimore Sun came down,
6 I think you wanted to meet with her. I think you did meet
7 with her. I think you were quoted in the article.
8 THE COURT: Is this the Baltimore Sun article?
9 THE WITNESS: I believe that is what it is.
10 THE COURT: Do you think there are too many
11 folks from down here that read it?
12 THE WITNESS: No. No, not here. But this
13 was -- any kind of publicity. It was also -- you
14 know, the same story was run in a lot of newspapers
15 around the country, including the Atlanta Journal,
16 some papers in Florida also, your Honor. The
17 Miami -- one of the Miami papers.
18 THE COURT: Are you at a little lull? I have a
19 couple questions.
20 MR. DANDAR: I'm at a lull because I need to
21 make a copy of an exhibit and it's 20 pages long.
22 THE COURT: Well, I have a little question,
23 very brief, and then I'll let you run your little
24 thing and we'll take a break.
25 MR. DANDAR: Okay.
1696
1 THE COURT: I meant to ask you this on Tuesday.
2 This movie, The Profit, as I recall, you were the
3 main producer, you were -- you had -- you were the
4 main money person?
5 THE WITNESS: Money person, yes. I think, you
6 know, I was given executive producer credit, but
7 somebody -- there was a producer.
8 THE COURT: But you were the money man?
9 THE WITNESS: Yeah.
10 THE COURT: Then Mr. Alexander sort of -- I
11 guess it was his, then Ms. Greenway was listed in
12 the list of credits. In other words, they appeared
13 to be the ones that it was really their production?
14 THE WITNESS: Correct.
15 THE COURT: You supplied the money?
16 THE WITNESS: Right.
17 THE COURT: Then I saw -- oh, I saw some faces
18 that I knew as I was watching it.
19 THE WITNESS: Right.
20 THE COURT: What -- other than playing this
21 little bit part in there, what, if anything, did
22 Mr. Dandar have to do with that movie?
23 THE WITNESS: Well, what he had to do with it,
24 as far as I was concerned, with me -- I don't know
25 what he discussed or did with Ms. Greenway or Peter
1697
1 Alexander -- we discussed it. He wanted to make
2 sure, first of all, that this wasn't going to
3 consume too much money so that it was going to cut
4 him off in any way.
5 He -- you know, I discussed with him some of
6 the original discussions with Peter Alexander. One
7 of the -- well, there were several angles to this
8 movie. Mmm --
9 THE COURT: This may be way beyond what I
10 wanted. What I want to know is did he help to write
11 it? Did he help to direct it? Did he help to
12 produce it? Did he help to show it around the city?
13 Or --
14 THE WITNESS: Did Mr. Dandar?
15 THE COURT: Yes.
16 THE WITNESS: No, your Honor.
17 THE COURT: So he was no way involved in the --
18 supposed to make any money off of it or put any
19 money into it or anything like that?
20 THE WITNESS: Not to my knowledge.
21 THE COURT: Did he make any decisions on where
22 to release the film?
23 THE WITNESS: I don't know, your Honor.
24 THE COURT: Okay.
25 THE WITNESS: I don't believe he did, but I
1698
1 don't know because, you know, he was close with
2 Ms. Greenway and Mr. Alexander. You know, they were
3 both in Tampa. He had lots of conversations with
4 them that I was never part of.
5 THE COURT: And as far as you were concerned,
6 he didn't come to you and ask you to release it
7 here, there or the other place?
8 THE WITNESS: No. But -- but he was extremely
9 interested in this movie being a hit, you know, that
10 it would actually be popular and would influence
11 people about Scientology, including people here.
12 He was also very keen about one of the central
13 aspects of this movie, which is something that had
14 been tried in connection with the copyright cases,
15 and that was the thing that Graham Berry, this
16 attorney who you have heard about here, he -- he
17 filed a lawsuit in San Luis Obispo, California
18 where -- which is where I think Mr. Hubbard died.
19 THE COURT: I know we're well past what I want
20 to know. But could you get to the end of wherever
21 it is you are going?
22 THE WITNESS: Well, this aspect -- okay, I'll
23 just get to the point here.
24 Anything to besmirch David Miscavige was
25 something Mr. Dandar was interested in.
1699
1 THE COURT: This Miscavige -- when was this
2 movie released, do you know?
3 THE WITNESS: Mmm, it was 2001 sometime.
4 THE COURT: When was it made?
5 THE WITNESS: Mmm, I think the shooting on it
6 started in early 2001, I think.
7 MR. DANDAR: It started --
8 THE COURT: 2001?
9 THE WITNESS: Well, 2000 -- now I'm trying
10 to -- I guess it was -- I think it was 2000 that it
11 was -- you know, I forget now whether it is 2000 or
12 2001, but -- I'm trying to think. It was shown in
13 Leipzig -- no, the Cannes Film Festival in March of
14 2001. So it was shot in 2000.
15 THE COURT: Okay.
16 THE WITNESS: And, you know, the first time it
17 was shown anywhere was there. Then later it was --
18 in June it was shown in Leipzig. Then it was shown
19 in Tampa, which film critics came and reviewed it.
20 Then subsequently it was released in this theater in
21 Clearwater.
22 THE COURT: Is that a theater, or is that a
23 coffeehouse?
24 THE WITNESS: I have never been there. You
25 know, I think it is, you know, a dinner theater it
1700
1 is called.
2 THE COURT: In other words, if I'm looking to
3 go to a movie and I go and look in the newspaper, do
4 I find this place? I don't know.
5 THE WITNESS: I never looked for it, your
6 Honor. I didn't go to it when it was playing in
7 Clearwater.
8 THE COURT: So you are suggesting that he hoped
9 that it would make Mr. Miscavige look bad, he was
10 hoping it would be seen by a lot of people there?
11 THE WITNESS: Not just in the area. It was
12 envisioned to be a rather big thing, you know,
13 nationally, as opposed to just locally.
14 THE COURT: As it had to do with the Lisa
15 McPherson case, though, let's -- let's forget about
16 his wanting it to be -- as it had to do with the
17 Lisa McPherson case, what, in your mind, did he have
18 to do with that movie?
19 THE WITNESS: Well, only to the extent of
20 wanting it to be a hit here.
21 THE COURT: Maybe he wanted to be a movie star.
22 THE WITNESS: Well, I don't know, or an FBI
23 agent. I don't know. But -- but that was the main
24 thing. And this slam on Mr. Miscavige was very
25 important.
1701
1 THE COURT: He perceived that if it were a hit
2 and the folks were to understand that it was
3 Scientology that was being portrayed, that this,
4 what, might help his lawsuit?
5 THE WITNESS: Well, the --
6 THE COURT: I mean, are these things that
7 you-all were talking about?
8 THE WITNESS: Well, the thing about David
9 Miscavige we did talk about, because the thing about
10 David Miscavige -- and this is a theory that was
11 started by Vaughn Young -- is that David Miscavige
12 killed L. Ron Hubbard. And that is the central
13 starting point and end to that movie.
14 THE COURT: David Miscavige killed L. Ron --
15 oh, L. Ron Hubbard? Oh, okay. And that had
16 something to do with Lisa McPherson?
17 THE WITNESS: No, your Honor. It was -- it was
18 to -- to go after the Church, you know, to go after
19 Miscavige; because, you know, basically the idea was
20 that, you know, if you could besmirch Mr. Miscavige
21 enough, there would be a power struggle in the
22 Church, sort of like Saddam Hussein, you know, in
23 iraq, which the CIA never got it to work, but this
24 is sort of what was discussed about this.
25 THE COURT: So this was more to mess up the
1702
1 Church and the religion and the organization --
2 THE WITNESS: To put it -- well, if you could
3 have Mr. Miscavige in any way removed, yes, this
4 would cause a lot of --
5 THE COURT: Turmoil?
6 THE WITNESS: -- internal turmoil, yes.
7 THE COURT: Inside?
8 THE WITNESS: Yes.
9 THE COURT: Okay. That kind of seems to me to
10 be a different motive.
11 THE WITNESS: It is.
12 THE COURT: What is it that this movie had to
13 do with this lawsuit that was pending, particularly
14 the wrongful death case, other than if it were a hit
15 and if it were seen in this community and if the
16 people who saw it realized it had something to do --
17 THE WITNESS: Associated --
18 THE COURT: -- with Scientology, and if those
19 same people happened to sit on a jury, and if nobody
20 asked about it and they could sneak on the jury,
21 they might be more inclined to vote unfavorably to
22 Scientology, is that --
23 THE WITNESS: Basically, the nutshell of it,
24 yes.
25 THE COURT: Other than that kind of scenario,
1703
1 if all those things could happen it could help a
2 lawsuit, there was nothing else, as far as
3 Mr. Dandar and that movie, as to the wrongful death
4 case?
5 THE WITNESS: No. I mean, you know, you have
6 seen it. And, you know, there was nothing in there
7 that tied in with the case, per se.
8 THE COURT: No, nothing that I saw.
9 THE WITNESS: No. Nothing that I saw, either.
10 THE COURT: Okay. Then just generally, not
11 involving Mr. Dandar at all, on that movie -- and I
12 just want to ask this before I forget it -- the same
13 thing would be true as to the movie. In other
14 words, that the movie wasn't made, I take it, with
15 the idea of being shown at the same time the Lisa
16 McPherson trial was going on or anything like that?
17 Nobody knew when, if ever, the case would go to
18 trial?
19 THE WITNESS: Well, yeah, you're right, but
20 there was a stage, when the trial was thought to be
21 happening --
22 THE COURT: I mean, there have been lots of
23 those.
24 THE WITNESS: I know. Nobody knew for sure
25 when it would go to trial, that's for sure, your
1704
1 Honor. The purpose -- or timetable of making the
2 movie was to make it as quick as possible, just to
3 minimize the expenses.
4 THE COURT: I mean, when most people make a
5 movie -- I don't know because I never made one --
6 but I assume it's to make money.
7 THE WITNESS: Well, that is always a nice
8 benefit.
9 THE COURT: Right. So I assume when you made
10 this movie, you would think perhaps if it was seen
11 by enough folks, it would make you and make whoever
12 some money?
13 THE WITNESS: Right. Well, that was another
14 interesting aspect of it.
15 THE COURT: And then the other -- only way it
16 relates to Lisa McPherson is if all those things
17 that we just went through lined up somehow?
18 THE WITNESS: Yeah, if it was popular and seen
19 a lot in this area, that's right. But as far as --
20 but it was part of the whole negative publicity
21 about Scientology, especially this part about
22 Mr. Miscavige, to throw the Church in some kind of
23 turmoil.
24 THE COURT: Okay. But that is different -- in
25 my mind, that is a little different in the case. It
1705
1 seems like that is a different issue.
2 THE WITNESS: Right, it's -- it's -- yeah, it's
3 different than the case.
4 THE COURT: Okay. We're going to take an
5 afternoon break. It is five minutes until three.
6 We'll be in recess until 3:15.
7 (WHEREUPON, a recess was taken from 2:55 to 3:18 p.m.)
8 _______________________________________
9 THE COURT: You may continue. How close to
10 being finished are you?
11 MR. DANDAR: Very, very.
12 THE WITNESS: Your Honor, could I ask you a
13 personal question? Where do judges smoke?
14 (A discussion was held off the record.)
15 BY MR. DANDAR:
16 Q Mr. Minton, let me show you what has been marked
17 as Plaintiff's Exhibit 79, and I'll give you the clerk's
18 copy.
19 Do you recognize the first page as being something
20 that you posted?
21 A Yes. I remember this post.
22 Q It was October 5 of 1999?
23 A Right.
24 Q And why did you post these declarations of Vicki
25 Aznaran and Michael Hertzberg?
1706
1 A Let me just read the opening.
2 Q All right.
3 A Well, I thought -- I thought this was a prime
4 example of somebody selling out to the Church of
5 Scientology.
6 Q By recanting all their prior sworn declarations
7 that were critical of the Church of Scientology?
8 A I'm not sure whether she recanted all, but I
9 remember she recanted an affidavit that she did for Graham
10 Berry.
11 Q Was that in the Fishman case?
12 A I -- I'm not sure.
13 Q Did it have to do with end cycle?
14 A I don't know what it had to do with.
15 Q Do you know if it had to do with David Miscavige's
16 role in Scientology?
17 A I -- I don't remember what was in her affidavit,
18 nor whether I ever read it at the time.
19 Q Okay.
20 A I have read it since -- since I posted this.
21 Q And Vicki Aznaran was the former president of RTC,
22 Religious Technology Center, correct?
23 A That's right.
24 Q And what was the purpose that you posted it,
25 though?
1707
1 A Well, you know, I thought this was -- I thought --
2 she -- you know, I know she settled with Scientology. I
3 believe she had lied in some affidavit -- or -- or -- sorry,
4 not that I believe she lied, that she lied in the current
5 affidavit that she did, recanting --
6 Q The recantation?
7 A -- recanting the previous affidavit.
8 Q So the lies were in the recantation affidavit that
9 she did?
10 A Mmm, that is what I thought, yeah.
11 Q Okay. And this is your posting, correct?
12 A It is. You know, I've -- this was the affidavit
13 that supposedly Graham Berry added ten pages to.
14 Q With the recantation affidavit?
15 A No. Her -- her original affidavit she filed in
16 the Fishman case.
17 Q Oh, so in this posting it includes her recantation
18 affidavit in which she accuses Graham Berry of adding ten
19 pages to her previously filed declaration?
20 A Mmm, that is what I believe. Yeah.
21 Q After she settled with the Church of Scientology,
22 that is when she filed the recantation affidavit?
23 MR. FUGATE: I object to the relevance,
24 materiality. And if he has personal knowledge of
25 whatever.
1708
1 THE COURT: It's a posting, that is all.
2 A You know, all I know about Vicky Aznaran, other
3 than she was the president of RTC, was it came up in one of
4 these meetings with Mr. Rinder and Mr. Shaw.
5 BY MR. DANDAR:
6 Q Okay. In 2002?
7 A Right.
8 Q Okay. And are you the one that called her an OSA
9 whore?
10 A I did.
11 MR. DANDAR: I move this into evidence.
12 THE COURT: Any objection?
13 MR. FUGATE: No, your Honor.
14 THE COURT: All right. It will be received.
15 Is this the one that -- that from time to time when
16 I read some affidavit, or maybe deposition or
17 something -- I guess affidavit of Mr. Prince -- he
18 talks about a woman that is sort of on the same
19 level as he or maybe one level above?
20 MR. DANDAR: One level --
21 THE COURT: Is that this lady?
22 MR. DANDAR: Yes.
23 THE COURT: It looked like the same name.
24 MR. DANDAR: Yes.
25
1709
1 BY MR. DANDAR:
2 Q When is the first time you met with Ben Shaw in
3 2002?
4 A Mmm, I don't have a precise date, but I believe it
5 was sometime, you know, late April. There were two meetings
6 that he was present for.
7 Q Your second and third affidavits are both dated
8 April 24, 2002. Was it before or after those affidavits?
9 A I'm not certain but I think it was after.
10 Q And what was the purpose of the meeting -- the
11 first meeting with Ben Shaw when he was present?
12 A Mmm, well, I believe that Stacy Brooks was, you
13 know, also in -- this was at Mr. Pope's office. I believe
14 Stacy Brooks was in the -- in the conference room working on
15 her affidavit. I was sitting in the other room with Ben
16 Shaw and Mr. Rinder.
17 And, you know, we -- Stacy Brooks would come in
18 occasionally. I think we ate dinner there in the library
19 room at Mr. Pope's office, you know.
20 And as I recall, what Mr. Rinder and Mr. Shaw and
21 I talked about was just some of the things that had happened
22 over the course of -- you know, personal things, you know,
23 things that had been said by me, or things -- or things that
24 had been done by me, or things that had been said by them or
25 done by them. And, you know, it was -- that's what was
1710
1 going on.
2 Q Just chatting?
3 A Pretty much, yeah. Except for, you know -- and
4 during dinner, Stacy Brooks was there for the dinner. You
5 know, we had -- there were two types of dishes brought. One
6 was chicken with something. And one was trout. And I had
7 the trout. And it was really good.
8 Q Is that from the Ft. Harrison Hotel?
9 A Yes.
10 Q And this was --
11 A And, yes, it did include rice and beans, but they
12 were delicious.
13 Q And this included -- this was a day that Stacy
14 Brooks was composing an affidavit?
15 A Well, she was working on her affidavit, I believe.
16 Q The long one?
17 A Yes.
18 Q And did she bring drafts into the room to show
19 Mr. Rinder and Mr. Shaw?
20 A I don't think so.
21 Q Do you know if she showed drafts of her long
22 recantation affidavit to anyone?
23 A Mmm, I believe she showed it to Mr. Rinder and
24 Ms. Yingling.
25 Q When?
1711
1 A I don't know.
2 Q Were you present when she showed it to them?
3 A Mmm, you know, I was probably in the building. I
4 might have been in the room at the time. I don't know.
5 Q Forgive me if I asked you this question. I'm
6 trying to get this done. I'll be done quickly.
7 In your mind, what was the reason why you showed
8 your drafts of your long affidavit to Mr. Rinder and
9 Ms. Yingling?
10 A Well, you know, undoubtedly, they were interested
11 in what these things said. And, you know, I thought they
12 would be interested. That's -- and whether they had any
13 comments.
14 Q And as far as you know, you can't remember any
15 comments that they made, right, about yours?
16 A As I said, you know, the generality of it was they
17 wanted the ball driven a little further to one side than the
18 other.
19 Q And did you help them drive that ball?
20 A No.
21 Q Did they say -- what did they say to Stacy Brooks
22 about the drafts that she showed them of her affidavit?
23 A You know, I -- I don't recall what they said.
24 Q Was Mr. Shaw there when Ms. Brooks brought in a
25 draft of her long affidavit?
1712
1 A I don't think he was.
2 Q Were any of your attorneys there, Ms. Brooks' or
3 yours?
4 A No.
5 Q And after Stacy Brooks finished her long
6 affidavit -- and the record will show what date that was --
7 did you continue to meet with representatives of the Church
8 of Scientology?
9 A Well, at some stage after Stacy Brooks finished
10 her affidavit -- which I don't remember the date you said it
11 was -- what date was it?
12 Q I don't know. I don't have it in front of me.
13 A Well, sometime soon thereafter, she started
14 testifying here for quite some period of time. And I met
15 with Mr. Rinder at least a couple of times -- a few times,
16 while she was testifying.
17 Q And what did you and Mr. Rinder talk about while
18 she's testifying before Judge Schaeffer?
19 A Well, you know, I remember one meeting
20 particularly. It was pretty much just chatting about some
21 events that -- what I thought was the sort of worst thing
22 they ever did with me. And -- and discussing some events of
23 things that were particularly nasty that I said to
24 Mr. Rinder and about Mr. Moxon.
25 Q What was the worst thing they did to you?
1713
1 A You know, I don't -- well, it wasn't actually
2 something they did to me. It was something they did -- at
3 least I thought they did, and it wasn't denied, it wasn't
4 admitted either.
5 But my children like to play tennis. And my wife
6 was being sponsored by a man who was the president of
7 Fidelity Investments in Boston to join Longwood Tennis Club,
8 sort of a country club in Brooklawn. And somebody sent to
9 all of the members of this admissions committee or
10 acceptance committee copies of all of this stuff concerning
11 Nigeria, and that Therese was under indictment in Nigeria
12 and Minton was -- I was under indictment.
13 And, you know, that was -- that was hurtful to me
14 that, you know, I couldn't help her deal with that in any
15 way.
16 Q What year was this?
17 A I would imagine it would have been in 2000.
18 Q What is the worst thing they said that you did --
19 THE COURT: Did this cost her her membership in
20 this club?
21 THE WITNESS: She didn't get in.
22 BY MR. DANDAR:
23 Q What is the worst --
24 THE WITNESS: I mean, everybody sort of backed
25 away.
1714
1 A Sorry, what was the question?
2 BY MR. DANDAR:
3 Q What did they tell you was the worst thing you
4 did?
5 THE COURT: Wait a second. You were not
6 indicted in Nigeria, were you?
7 THE WITNESS: No, your Honor.
8 THE COURT: So whatever it was that was being
9 sent was not even true, was it?
10 THE WITNESS: That's right.
11 A I'm sorry, please ask me again.
12 BY MR. DANDAR:
13 Q So they neither admitted nor denied that they
14 participated in that smear campaign of your wife?
15 A That's right.
16 Q What is the worst thing that Mr. Rinder said that
17 you did?
18 A Well, it wasn't something that he said I did. It
19 was something that -- that I apologized about profoundly,
20 which we discussed in some detail.
21 Q What was that?
22 A Mmm, well, it was one night on the street in front
23 of the Ft. Harrison Hotel, where I said something while he
24 was being interviewed by some news media while a picket was
25 going on. I said something about him not being allowed by
1715
1 David Miscavige to come to his daughter's funeral when she
2 died.
3 Q Is that something that Ms. Brooks told you?
4 A No. It was actually something that was started by
5 Vicky Aznaran in the Fishman case. And, you know, I believe
6 now it was a lie.
7 Q Because Mr. Rinder told you it was a lie?
8 A Mmm, he explained to me what happened, and that
9 he, in fact, did come back here. And that, you know, that
10 this was during this mission holders conference in San
11 Francisco, that he was at INT -- I-N-T -- and that
12 Mr. Miscavige and others were at San Francisco.
13 And in the middle of the night, David Miscavige's
14 wife came in and told him that she hated to be the one to
15 tell him, but that his daughter had died in Clearwater. And
16 she said, "There is a car wait