IN THE CIRCUIT COURT FOR PINELLAS COUNTY, FLORIDA
CASE NO. 00-5682-CI-11
DELL LIEBREICH, as Personal
Representative of the ESTATE OF
LISA McPHERSON,
Plaintiff,
vs. VOLUME 14
TESTIMONY OF
CHURCH OF SCIENTOLOGY FLAG ROBERT MINTON
SERVICE ORGANIZATION, JANIS
JOHNSON, ALAIN KARTUZINSKI
and DAVID HOUGHTON, D.D.S.,
Defendants.
_______________________________________/
PROCEEDINGS: Defendants' Omnibus Motion for
Terminating Sanctions and Other Relief
DATE: May 30, 2002. Morning Session
PLACE: Courtroom B, Judicial Building
St. Petersburg, Florida
BEFORE: Honorable Susan F. Schaeffer
Circuit Judge
REPORTED BY: Debra S. Turner
Deputy Official Court Reporter
Sixth Judicial Circuit of Florida
_________________________________________________
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
TAMPA AIRPORT MARRIOTT HOTEL (813) 224-9500
ST. PETERSBURG - CLEARWATER (727) 821-3320
Volume 14, Page 1777
APPEARANCES:
MR. KENNAN G. DANDAR
MR. THOMAS DANDAR
DANDAR & DANDAR
5340 West Kennedy Blvd., Suite 201
Tampa, FL 33602
Attorney for Plaintiff
MR. KENDRICK MOXON
MOXON & KOBRIN
1100 Cleveland Street, Suite 900
Clearwater, FL 33755
Attorney for Church of Scientology Flag Service Organization
MR. LEE FUGATE and
MR. MORRIS WEINBERG, JR.
ZUCKERMAN, SPAEDER
101 E. Kennedy Blvd, Suite 1200
Tampa, FL 33602-5147
Attorneys for Church of Scientology Flag Service
Organization
MR. ERIC M. LIEBERMAN
RABINOWITZ, BOUDIN, STANDARD
740 Broadway at Astor Place
New York, NY 10003-9518
Attorney for Church of Scientology Flag Service Organization
MICHAEL LEE HERTZBERG, ESQUIRE
740 Broadway, 5th Floor
New York, NY 10003
Counsel for Church of Scientology
Flag Service Organization
MR. BRUCE HOWIE
5720 Central Avenue
St. Petersburg, Florida.
Attorney for Robert Minton
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
Volume 14, Page 1778
1 (The proceedings began at 9:05 a.m.)
2 THE COURT: Good morning.
3 SEVERAL SPEAKERS: Good morning.
4 THE COURT: I have some good news and bad
5 news. Now, the bad news --
6 MR. WEINBERG: Tell us the bad news first.
7 THE COURT: The bad news is that my JA's
8 momma is dying, and she got a call last night. She
9 didn't come home right away, so we left at 3:30 this
10 morning to get that process going. If her mom passes
11 away, which is certainly expected, I will go up for
12 the funeral. I don't have a clue when that is, you
13 know. I don't know -- so that's kind of up in the
14 air.
15 The other part of that bad news is that,
16 while I can indeed work the computer and I can type on
17 it, I'm not as good as she. So those orders that I
18 told you I was frantically trying to get all of them
19 done for you all will be delayed. I'll do the best I
20 can. But, you know, I may or may not get them done.
21 So, you know, they're all in the kind of process of
22 drafts, and we'll just see how that works. So if you
23 don't get them right away, don't be surprised.
24 As I said, I -- I do know how to work Word
25 myself a little bit, but I don't know how to do any of
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
Volume 14, Page 1779
1 the formatting. I just know how to type, and then she
2 tends to all that. So you may not see any orders for
3 a while.
4 We gave her a return flight next Friday, and
5 that's the gist. It's up in the air.
6 MR. WEINBERG: Where does she live?
7 THE COURT: She lives in -- she's one of
8 eleven kids. So all the kids are coming. And she
9 lives in Somerset, Kentucky, which is a little old
10 town. She flies in to Lexington, and then someone
11 will pick her up at 9 o'clock this morning and
12 hopefully take her to the hospital, although she tells
13 me her mom might not make it through the night.
14 But in any event, that kind of leaves next
15 week in somewhat of a -- of course, she's gone, so I
16 can't say, "Call my office." So Peggy Hughes, who is
17 Judge Rondolino's JA -- and he is at 582-7702. But
18 you can dial my number because she'll be answering
19 that phone.
20 On Monday, for example --
21 MR. WEINBERG: We'll be off.
22 THE COURT: Yes, you're going to be off, but
23 if you want to know what's happening Tuesday --
24 MR. WEINBERG: Okay.
25 THE COURT: -- then you can call Peggy. And
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
Volume 14, Page 1780
1 she'll tell you, "No, Judge Schaeffer is not going to
2 be here," or she can say, "Judge Schaeffer is going to
3 be here."
4 So I might know something Friday. I mean, I
5 expect her to call me tonight. So tomorrow I might
6 know something. But I might not. So your best bet is
7 just to call tomorrow. If you don't hear anything,
8 call Monday. And we'll just play it by ear, okay?
9 MR. WEINBERG: Okay.
10 THE COURT: Let's see. That's the bad news.
11 I got home last night, decided whatever I was talking
12 about at about 4:30 I was talking about wrong, and I
13 got it right in my own head. So I figure you all kind
14 of forgive me after 4:00, that you know I tend to --
15 these days are very tedious for me.
16 I try to make it clear to you all that these
17 types of allegations that fly both ways are very
18 painful for a judge to have to sit day in and day out
19 and hear it. And I hate to hear about lawyers and
20 stuff like that.
21 So they're painful, which is probably the
22 reason why I'm being as good as I am, I hope, about
23 letting everybody fully do this, because these are
24 serious allegations. But they're painful for a judge
25 to sit on.
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
Volume 14, Page 1781
1 So while I may sit here and try to be light
2 for all of us from time to time, it doesn't mean that
3 they're not very painful, aggravating, all those
4 things. And so sometimes it's -- you know, it's not
5 that I'm not mentally alert at 4 o'clock; it's just
6 that I've heard about all I can handle at 4 o'clock.
7 So anyway, I got it straightened out in my
8 own head. So as I said, I think I was probably wrong
9 about the fat man and the check and all that; but, you
10 know, I got it in my head.
11 Now, let's see. Oh, I found my little
12 thing. Remember I couldn't find it? Now I found it.
13 When I was reading this weekend, one of the
14 things --
15 Oh, and by the way, Mr. Howie, on second
16 thought, I will give you your opportunity to make your
17 proffer at the end of Mr. Minton's testimony, assuming
18 it's not going to take a day.
19 MR. HOWIE: I don't think it'll be very long
20 at all, your Honor.
21 THE COURT: Okay. Then in that case, go
22 ahead. You know, I don't -- I don't want to preclude
23 you from filing an affidavit if you think that's the
24 more appropriate way to go. If you want to make some
25 proffer here and it's not going to take too long,
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
Volume 14, Page 1782
1 that's fine.
2 MR. HOWIE: If I can speak to my client on
3 that --
4 THE COURT: Okay.
5 MR. HOWIE: -- and then I'll advise the
6 Court.
7 THE COURT: Well, I just want him to
8 understand, at 4:30, I didn't think it was a very good
9 idea. At 3 o'clock this morning, or whatever time it
10 was, I decided it was fine.
11 MR. HOWIE: Thank you.
12 THE COURT: I will afford him that.
13 When I was reading over the weekend, I made
14 some notes, not the least of which is I -- I checked
15 "percipient" out, ran it through the dictionary and
16 tried to figure out what all that was about.
17 So Mr. -- Mr. Prince likes to use that word
18 a lot, "percipient." Tell him I hope he knows what it
19 means, because I do. And it took me a great deal of
20 time to logically go through "percipient" and what I
21 thought "percipient" knowledge might be and
22 "discernment." And what I figure is percipient -- no
23 percipient knowledge in reality is no knowledge. But
24 we'll have to get through that, because I don't know
25 what he means. He says it all the time.
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
Volume 14, Page 1783
1 MR. DANDAR: I think he means personal
2 eyewitness knowledge.
3 THE COURT: Well, it's -- we're going to get
4 it down. "Percipient" doesn't mean that.
5 "Percipient" means capable or characterized by
6 perception.
7 "Perception" means observation, a mental
8 image, concept, appreciation, and is a synonym for
9 "discernment."
10 So if I've got no percipient knowledge, it
11 would seem therefore to me no observable knowledge or
12 no conceptual knowledge or no appreciable knowledge or
13 no discernible knowledge. But if Mr. Prince uses it,
14 it's probably no observable knowledge, no firsthand
15 knowledge.
16 "Discernment" is the quality of being able
17 to grasp and comprehend what is obscure. And
18 "discernment" stresses accuracy.
19 This is always good for us. You know, we
20 have to learn things. This is -- I mean, I've heard
21 "percipient" used, but, you know, I never really felt
22 like I really needed to know what it meant.
23 "Discern" means to detect with the eyes, to
24 detect with the senses other than vision, to come to
25 know or recognize mentally. And the adjective is
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
Volume 14, Page 1784
1 "discernment."
2 So the way I figure is no percipient
3 knowledge means either no observable knowledge, no
4 firsthand knowledge, or, the truth of the matter is,
5 no knowledge.
6 Anyway, you can tell him that I will want to
7 know what that means to him, because I know what it
8 means in the dictionary.
9 MR. DANDAR: And I don't think he's the only
10 one in this case that's used that word.
11 THE COURT: I did notice somebody else used
12 it. But the deal is, when somebody uses it over and
13 over, I just have to know what it is. So I spent a
14 lot of time with the dictionary this weekend.
15 But the other thing is that I was kind of
16 interested, one of the exhibits to somebody --
17 somebody's filing was a state attorney's report.
18 That's the first time I'd seen it, like a 25-page
19 report.
20 Lee, I think it might have been something
21 you used.
22 MR. FUGATE: We got that in the Freedom of
23 Information Act request after the conclusion of the
24 case, and I think it was that which was put into the
25 public record. And it's attached --
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
Volume 14, Page 1785
1 THE COURT: Well, it was attached to
2 something you filed.
3 MR. FUGATE: To the memorandum of law --
4 THE COURT: So I read it, and I have two
5 questions. One was the last thing that was on there
6 was a recommendation. I never saw it. It was blank,
7 so I didn't see that.
8 More importantly, I assumed that that was
9 the situation at the beginning, not at the end,
10 because there's nothing in there about --
11 MR. LIEBERMAN: Right.
12 THE COURT: -- the medical examiner or what
13 have you.
14 I kind of enjoyed reading it, because it
15 looked to me like Judge Crow -- "Judge Crow"; he would
16 be a pretty good judge -- but he was sort of laying
17 out for his boss the pluses, the minuses of the this
18 and the that. It's always good for me to see somebody
19 who is trying to be objective, saying this was a
20 problem, that's a problem. So I thought it was
21 helpful.
22 I wondered if his second report had been
23 released.
24 MR. WEINBERG: Yes.
25 THE COURT: And I don't know --
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
Volume 14, Page 1786
1 MR. WEINBERG: I mean, he really -- my
2 recollection is, I think -- Doug Crow at the time that
3 the case was dismissed -- it was nolle pros'd, is that
4 what you're asking?
5 THE COURT: Yes. I think there was a big
6 report.
7 MR. WEINBERG: There was a letter -- there
8 was like a letter to Bernie McCabe --
9 THE COURT: Okay.
10 MR. WEINBERG: -- sort of a memo --
11 THE COURT: I thought if you all had that,
12 there might be more information in there about -- I
13 mean, as I said, I found it quite helpful because it
14 was a fair assessment of the pluses and minuses of the
15 allegations. And some of the allegations, at least to
16 some extent, mirror Count I. So if you've got it and
17 if you don't mind if I take a look at it, I might want
18 to take a look at it.
19 As I said, the recommendations -- Crow's
20 recommendations from his first report, I don't know if
21 they ever were released. They might have been
22 considered work product, not to be released. They
23 were not in the submission.
24 MR. WEINBERG: Yes, he kept those back.
25 THE COURT: Okay.
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
Volume 14, Page 1787
1 MR. WEINBERG: But the last thing he did, I
2 think he faxed it to the press on the day of the nolle
3 pros or right before the nolle pros.
4 THE COURT: I've never seen it. If it's out
5 there and you have it somewhere --
6 MR. WEINBERG: Somewhere.
7 THE COURT: It's not urgent, but I just made
8 a mental note that I kind of enjoyed reading his
9 report. As I would have expected, Mr. Crow was very
10 thorough and very -- I thought he assessed things
11 pretty well.
12 The next is all this "percipient" business.
13 And everything else, I've dealt with in one fashion or
14 another or it's something I have to deal with.
15 So I'm glad I found this. I was most
16 concerned that I couldn't find it. Then I found it,
17 and that's that.
18 Let's see. I don't think I took anything
19 home. If I did, I didn't read it because we had kind
20 of an emergency. If there was anything else I was
21 supposed to read last night, I didn't. I'm ready to
22 have Mr. Minton back on the stand.
23 MR. FUGATE: Judge, I know you're not going
24 to be reading much, but you asked for the press copies
25 of the hearing?
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
Volume 14, Page 1788
1 THE COURT: Oh, yes.
2 MR. FUGATE: And I've got those.
3 THE COURT: Wonderful. I will take them
4 home. I won't guarantee you I'll read them all at one
5 sitting. But I honestly can't remember -- this is so
6 long and involved that I cannot remember things that
7 were said and could become important.
8 Thank you.
9 MR. FUGATE: Are we ready?
10 THE COURT: Yes.
11 I didn't want you all to think I was still
12 confused like I was last night. I'm not.
13 MR. FUGATE: It's okay. I am, Judge.
14 THE COURT: You know sooner or later I get
15 these things straight.
16 Okay. Mr. Fugate, continue.
17 REDIRECT EXAMINATION OF ROBERT S. MINTON (RESUMED)
18 BY MR. FUGATE:
19 Q May it please the Court. Good morning,
20 Mr. Minton.
21 A Good morning.
22 THE WITNESS: Good morning.
23 THE COURT: Good morning.
24 BY MR. FUGATE:
25 Q I'm going to go back in time a little bit and
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
Volume 14, Page 1789
1 actually back to 1997 and ask you, do you recall in 1997
2 awarding to Mr. Dandar the FACTNet Man of the Year Award?
3 A I recall awarding it -- I mean, giving him the
4 award, but I'm not certain of the year, though.
5 MR. FUGATE: Okay. May I approach, your
6 Honor?
7 THE COURT: You may.
8 MR. DANDAR: Outside cross-examination.
9 THE COURT: I'll allow it.
10 MR. FUGATE: Judge, this is going to be
11 marked as Defendant's Exhibit 134, Composite A, B, and
12 C. There's two photographs.
13 MR. WEINBERG: What's the exhibit number?
14 MR. FUGATE: 134 A, B, and C.
15 BY MR. FUGATE:
16 Q I'll show you what's been marked for
17 identification as Defendant's Exhibit 134 A, and there are
18 two photos. And I would ask you to look at 134 A, B, and C
19 and see if you can identify those, sir.
20 THE COURT: What was the number again?
21 MR. FUGATE: 134, Composite A, B, and C.
22 THE COURT: Okay.
23 A Yes, sir. You wanted me to identify the
24 photographs?
25 BY MR. FUGATE:
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
Volume 14, Page 1790
1 Q First I wanted -- does the award there refresh
2 your recollection as to the year of the award?
3 A Yes. Yes, it does.
4 Q And can you identify -- and is that the award as
5 it was posted on the FACTNet Web site?
6 A Yes, I believe it is.
7 Q Or a copy of it?
8 A I believe it is, yes.
9 Q And do you recognize the two photos?
10 A Yes. It says on there the names, yes. Yes, I
11 recognize them.
12 Q We always stick names --
13 MR. DANDAR: I object, because it's apparent
14 the photos don't go with the Web site. They're just
15 added on.
16 THE COURT: I'll allow it.
17 BY MR. FUGATE:
18 Q There's obviously a photograph of Mr. Dandar and
19 a man with his back to the camera. Can you identify who
20 that is and where this award was given?
21 THE COURT: With his back to the camera?
22 A The man --
23 MR. FUGATE: There's a man with his back to
24 the camera. It's the same fellow that's in the next
25 picture.
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
Volume 14, Page 1791
1 THE COURT: Oh, okay.
2 A That's Jeff Jacobsen, Mr. Dandar at the podium
3 there with the microphones, and there's a lady there to
4 his -- off to his right, whose name is Birgitta -- yes.
5 BY MR. FUGATE:
6 Q And --
7 A And then in the other picture, it's me shaking
8 hands with Jeff Jacobsen.
9 Q And is that a photo also taken at the awards
10 ceremony?
11 A Yes, it was.
12 Q And was it a Co-Man of the Year, Mr. Dandar and
13 Mr. Jacobsen?
14 A Yes, it was.
15 MR. FUGATE: Your Honor, I would move into
16 evidence 134 A, B, and C.
17 THE COURT: I'll allow it.
18 BY MR. FUGATE:
19 Q Now, the award was for Mr. Jacobsen and
20 Mr. Dandar in their work in the Lisa McPherson case. Is
21 that correct?
22 A Well, for Mr. Dandar, yes. For Mr. Jacobsen, it
23 related to him, you know, putting up the first Web site
24 about Lisa McPherson, you know, discovering the Clearwater
25 police report that mentioned the address of the Fort
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
Volume 14, Page 1792
1 Harrison Hotel, and then --
2 Q Essentially discovering the Lisa McPherson --
3 what became of the Lisa McPherson case?
4 A That's right.
5 Q And is this the same Jeff Jacobsen that later you
6 employed to work at LMT?
7 A Yes, that's correct.
8 Q And is it the same Jeff Jacobsen that was the one
9 that maintained the library that we heard some testimony
10 about in the cross-examination?
11 A Yes, that's the same person.
12 Q And the -- it's a 1997 award. Do you recall
13 approximately when the awards were?
14 A They were in December, around the time of a
15 picket.
16 Q So if it's a picket vigil, would that refresh
17 your recollection?
18 A A picket and vigil, yes.
19 Q Would that be around about December 5th? If
20 that's the anniversary date each year of Lisa McPherson's
21 death?
22 MR. DANDAR: Objection, leading.
23 A Well --
24 THE COURT: Yes, that's --
25 BY MR. FUGATE:
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
Volume 14, Page 1793
1 Q It was in conjunction -- the award was given in
2 conjunction with a picket, slash, vigil?
3 A Yes. The exact date I don't remember because,
4 you know, it depended on when the -- usually the
5 picket/vigil was on the weekend, and, you know, I don't
6 know in '97 whether the 5th fell on a weekend or whether it
7 was on a Tuesday or Thursday. But either the weekend
8 before or the weekend after, or if the 5th was on the
9 weekend, yes, this was all connected with the same event.
10 Q And in the photograph there, there's a bank of
11 microphones in front of Mr. Dandar. Do you remember what
12 was happening when the award was given?
13 A Yes. There were -- you know, there were a number
14 of press people who were invited to the event, and
15 Mr. Dandar to my recollection gave a briefing on the status
16 of the case at that stage.
17 MR. FUGATE: And do you -- may I approach
18 the witness, your Honor?
19 THE COURT: You may.
20 BY MR. FUGATE:
21 Q We've already testified -- heard testimony in
22 your direct and your cross about the first amended
23 complaint. Can I ask you to look at the certificate copy
24 and see if that refreshes your recollection as to what day
25 the first amended complaint was filed in this case, the
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
Volume 14, Page 1794
1 wrongful death case?
2 A The 4th of December, 1997.
3 Q And this is the complaint that Mr. Dandar asked
4 you to find the word "murder" in?
5 A Yes, that's the one.
6 Q And you did find the word "murder" in there, as I
7 recall?
8 A Right. It was in the section concerning an
9 introspection rundown.
10 Q And, sir, if you look at your 93 series of
11 checks, Defendant's Exhibit 93, do you see a check in 1997
12 to Mr. Dandar?
13 THE COURT: Haven't we been through these
14 checks?
15 MR. FUGATE: Judge, it's fine. They'll
16 speak for themselves.
17 THE COURT: Okay.
18 MR. FUGATE: I'll move along.
19 THE WITNESS: Okay. You don't want me to
20 look for this?
21 MR. FUGATE: No.
22 THE WITNESS: Okay.
23 BY MR. FUGATE:
24 Q Next I'm going to show you what Mr. Dandar showed
25 you as Plaintiff's Exhibit No. 57.
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
Volume 14, Page 1795
1 MR. FUGATE: May I approach, your Honor?
2 THE COURT: You may.
3 MR. FUGATE: I've got a courtesy copy. It's
4 already in evidence.
5 THE COURT: Okay. I'm probably going to
6 give it back or throw it --
7 MR. FUGATE: That's fine. Throw it in
8 the --
9 THE COURT: -- in the wastebasket.
10 MR. FUGATE: -- wastebasket.
11 BY MR. FUGATE:
12 Q And I represent to you that this is Plaintiff's
13 Exhibit No. 57, a November 1999 post of yours. And if you
14 go down to the highlighted section there --
15 A Just --
16 Q The paragraph --
17 A Yes. I'm sorry. I was just trying to see what
18 the subject was there.
19 Q I'm sorry. Take your time.
20 A Okay. I'm down into the third paragraph, with
21 the highlighted part.
22 Q Do you see there where in this statement that
23 you're issuing, you indicate that the deathbed request by
24 Fannie to Ken Dandar that she wanted Ken to let the world
25 know what Scientology did to Lisa? Do you see that you've
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
Volume 14, Page 1796
1 indicated that there?
2 A Yes, I see that.
3 Q And had you had discussions with Mr. Dandar about
4 his having a video and audiotape of his last communications
5 with Fannie McPherson when he went out to see her in Texas?
6 A Well, before answering that, just let me point
7 out again that this is something that I think came off of
8 the -- I think this is something that came off the Web
9 site.
10 Q I believe that's how it was identified.
11 A Right. But, yes, he had talked about an
12 audiotape. I don't think he ever mentioned a videotape to
13 me.
14 Q Had you -- had he ever given you the opportunity
15 to listen to the audiotape?
16 A No.
17 Q Had you ever seen or heard either of these
18 things, these videos or audios?
19 A Well, I don't think he mentioned a video, and,
20 no, I didn't hear the audio.
21 Q So this is something Mr. Dandar said, but you
22 never heard the tape?
23 A That's correct.
24 Q Now --
25 THE COURT: Do you want this back or shall I
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
Volume 14, Page 1797
1 just -- since I have one?
2 MR. FUGATE: Your Honor, to tell you the
3 truth, I was looking and my eyes haven't caught up
4 with me yet. I don't think that we have marked or --
5 have marked the lawsuit that was served on Stacy
6 Brooks, but I'd like to -- if it hasn't been, I'll
7 give everybody a copy, and I'd like to go through that
8 with Mr. Minton.
9 THE COURT: All right.
10 MR. FUGATE: Now --
11 THE COURT: I have it up here somewhere. Do
12 I have another copy of it? Just a courtesy to look at
13 while you're doing it.
14 MR. FUGATE: It'll be marked as 139. I
15 believe we had it marked.
16 THE COURT: You did, and I've read it.
17 MR. FUGATE: Okay.
18 THE COURT: And it's here.
19 MR. FUGATE: If you have a pen there, this
20 will be Defendant's 139.
21 THE WITNESS: Okay. Let me get it out here.
22 MR. DANDAR: Judge, although you read this
23 document, I object on the grounds of relevancy. It's
24 not part of any motion. And Mr. Lirot is not here,
25 and this is his work product.
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
Volume 14, Page 1798
1 THE COURT: Well, it's a filed lawsuit. You
2 can't really have a work product privilege.
3 MR. DANDAR: No, I mean it's his work -- his
4 client, his knowledge. I haven't read this. I don't
5 even know what it says. But it has nothing to do with
6 the motions that are pending before you.
7 THE COURT: Well, I don't know if it does or
8 not, so we'll have to hear what the questions are. I
9 know that it has something to do with The Profit, and
10 I know that The Profit is alleged, at least, to
11 somehow be related.
12 MR. FUGATE: I'm going to tie it up, Judge,
13 and it goes to the cross-examination.
14 THE COURT: Okay. I'll do this for you,
15 Mr. Dandar. I understand that this is Mr. Lirot's
16 business. I mean, he -- I can't help it. If he's not
17 here, he's not here. I can't wait because he wants to
18 go do something else. I do understand.
19 But, you know, if he gets back before
20 Mr. Minton is off the stand or if Mr. Minton [sic]
21 comes back ahead of time and you want to have him ask
22 some questions at that time, you know, we'll allow
23 that, even if it's out of order.
24 But as I said, I can't -- Mr. Lirot has been
25 gone more than he's been here ever since I said you
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
Volume 14, Page 1799
1 can go ahead and handle the questioning. That's fine,
2 but, you know, we can't wait for Mr. Lirot.
3 MR. FUGATE: I think that my questions will
4 show that that's not going to be necessary.
5 THE COURT: Okay.
6 BY MR. FUGATE:
7 Q Yesterday in cross-examination, Mr. Minton, you
8 indicated to Mr. Dandar that the -- the film, The Profit,
9 was intended to be a parody or a jab at Scientology. Is
10 that correct, sir?
11 A I guess that's a mild characterization of what I
12 said, yes.
13 Q And I think you also indicated that one of the --
14 one of the things that the film depicted was -- and
15 intended to depict -- was a piece about alleging or showing
16 that David Miscavige killed L. Ron Hubbard. Do you recall
17 that?
18 A Yes, I do.
19 Q And at the time --
20 THE COURT: By the way, I didn't pick that
21 up. I mean, this fellow who was the star is not a
22 good person --
23 MR. FUGATE: No. I'm asking him if that's
24 what he said yesterday.
25 THE COURT: I just wanted you to know when I
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
Volume 14, Page 1800
1 read this, I did not pick -- I realized what was
2 happening, but I didn't pick up what that must look
3 like to a Scientologist, a person in the Church, they
4 would understand -- as I told you, they would
5 understand this a lot more. Most citizens wouldn't
6 still be there in this movie.
7 MR. DANDAR: Object to the leading nature.
8 THE COURT: Overruled.
9 BY MR. FUGATE:
10 Q Mr. Minton, was the purpose back in 2000 -- was
11 one of the purposes again to try to create turmoil within
12 the Church by releasing or producing this movie?
13 MR. DANDAR: Leading.
14 THE COURT: See, it's not leading, because
15 he could say yes or no. Leading suggests the answer.
16 MR. DANDAR: But I think he is suggesting
17 the answer.
18 THE COURT: No, he's not. He's saying "was
19 one of the purposes." He can say no. He can say
20 that.
21 A Yes.
22 BY MR. FUGATE:
23 Q And in 19 -- directing your attention, sir, back
24 to 1999 and 2000, you've testified about the critic
25 community and the climate that you were operating in.
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
Volume 14, Page 1801
1 There was apparently no concern about making allegations
2 about people killing Scientologists on the orders of other
3 people within Scientology. Is that a fair statement?
4 A I'm sorry, I didn't follow that --
5 Q All right.
6 A -- question.
7 Q Well, if the parody that you've described in
8 cross-examination depicted Mr. Miscavige killing L. Ron
9 Hubbard, my question is, was that sort of the attitude that
10 you and the critic community had in 1999, 2000, that those
11 sorts of allegations could be made and that's what you were
12 looking to do? I think you've --
13 A Well, just to --
14 THE COURT: He may not have been any part of
15 the -- did you write any of this?
16 THE WITNESS: No. I discussed --
17 THE COURT: Have you seen it?
18 THE WITNESS: Oh, yes.
19 THE COURT: Okay.
20 THE WITNESS: But I did discuss -- while
21 Peter Alexander was writing the script for this, we
22 had numerous discussions.
23 A But, I mean, as far as the critic community is
24 concerned, as I said, this -- this theory that, you know,
25 concerning Mr. Miscavige being responsible for the death of
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
Volume 14, Page 1802
1 L. Ron Hubbard was something that Vaughn Young came up
2 with. And it was used by Graham Berry to try -- in
3 connection with these copyright cases -- to try to attack
4 the entire copyright structure of Scientology by saying
5 that David Miscavige killed L. Ron Hubbard and the transfer
6 of these copyrights was done fraudulently; that L. Ron
7 Hubbard didn't sign this, this was all forged by
8 Mr. Miscavige and notarized ultimately by Mr. Starkey, I
9 believe. I don't remember whether it was Mr. Starkey, but
10 somebody --
11 Q And part of --
12 A -- an attorney, I believe.
13 Q And part of the purpose of the FACTNet litigation
14 that you were funding was to forward this agenda. Is that
15 correct, sir?
16 A Well, it was -- you know, there was clearly an
17 attempt to go after the copyrights of Scientology, you
18 know, the scriptures of Scientology, and to have those as
19 much as possible in the public domain so that Scientology
20 would lose the copyright.
21 Q I think you mentioned turmoil. One of the ideas
22 was turmoil within the Church?
23 A Well, that would relate more specifically to
24 Miscavige and the attempt to, you know, paint him as a
25 responsible party for something that Scientologists would
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
Volume 14, Page 1803
1 find extremely offensive and therefore force him into a
2 position of being removed as head of the Church of
3 Scientology and perhaps more -- you know, the thought was
4 that perhaps, you know, kinder, gentler people from the way
5 that Mr. Miscavige was viewed would come in and take over
6 the Church.
7 Q Now, going to The Profit itself -- and I'm going
8 to get back to the lawsuit.
9 THE COURT: Can I ask a question?
10 MR. FUGATE: Sure.
11 THE COURT: How would I know -- and I know
12 more about this case than the average citizens would
13 know. Now, I'm trying to think of it. The character
14 of L. Ron Hubbard was fairly obvious -- I mean, the
15 parody there.
16 THE WITNESS: Yes.
17 THE COURT: This fellow was somebody that
18 was sitting down, almost looked like a bag man to me.
19 He was kind of sitting down reading the --
20 THE WITNESS: Reading the book.
21 THE COURT: -- the autobiography or
22 whatever. It was the secret book.
23 THE WITNESS: Right.
24 THE COURT: Remember? At the end, he pushed
25 the stuff up, so he just got it back. It never dawned
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
Volume 14, Page 1804
1 on me. Really, it didn't. I mean, I'm sitting here
2 thinking what -- if that exposed David Miscavige, that
3 guy didn't seem to have anything near the power of
4 this -- that David Miscavige would have had at the
5 time of L. Ron Hubbard's life. He seemed like a bag
6 fellow, somebody coming to get the money.
7 THE WITNESS: Well, again, you know, I'm not
8 a Church of Scientology historian, but my
9 understanding of it was at some stage before -- before
10 Mr. Hubbard died that Mr. Miscavige was one of
11 Mr. Hubbard's -- well, was the key messenger, which is
12 a position in Scientology, who basically communicated
13 between L. Ron Hubbard and the rest of the Church. He
14 was the link.
15 And, you know, this person's name in the
16 movie was -- in the original script, it was going to
17 be David Savage. But for concern that that was a bit
18 too close to the name, his name in the final version
19 was Mitch Cabot; you know, not Miscavige, but Mitch
20 Cabot.
21 THE COURT: I didn't pick that up either.
22 All right. I'm just telling you all that I
23 didn't pick up that that character was supposed to be
24 David Miscavige. He was a bad fellow, but, I mean, I
25 didn't pick up that that was David Miscavige.
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
Volume 14, Page 1805
1 THE WITNESS: Well --
2 THE COURT: Whatever it's worth, it was lost
3 on me.
4 MR. FUGATE: Well, I think the point is it
5 wasn't lost on those involved in the movie, Judge.
6 THE COURT: Right.
7 BY MR. FUGATE:
8 Q You said something about Mr. Alexander's
9 preoccupation with the script. What were you talking
10 about?
11 A I didn't use the word "preoccupation."
12 Q I'm sorry. Can you tell us what your discussions
13 with Mr. Alexander were about how you wanted the movie or
14 how he wanted the movie to go?
15 (Mr. Tom Dandar entered the courtroom.)
16 A Well, there was the general thrust that this was
17 going to be a movie about Scientology and that -- you know,
18 that we had to be careful not to get into trouble because
19 of, you know, copyrights or trademark infringements and
20 things of that nature. And also, you know, to put
21 Scientology in the worst possible light and to create
22 this -- to use Vaughn Young's theory as the focal point of
23 the movie in terms of being responsible for -- David
24 Miscavige being responsible for the death of L. Ron
25 Hubbard.
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
Volume 14, Page 1806
1 Q Now, sir -- I'm sorry.
2 A That was the -- that was the basis of the
3 discussions. The script was put together by Mr. Alexander.
4 Q Now, on the -- if you look at the lawsuit which
5 is before you up there, if you flip to the first exhibit, I
6 believe, attached to it is -- it's the Courage Production
7 contract as of February 7th, 2000.
8 A The operating agreement, yes.
9 THE COURT: Where are you, Mr. Fugate?
10 MR. FUGATE: I lost the exhibit. I think
11 it's 139. Is that --
12 THE COURT: I've got it. I just -- where
13 are you?
14 MR. FUGATE: If you go, Judge, back to the
15 first exhibit, Exhibit A, it's the Courage Production
16 contract that's attached to the lawsuit.
17 THE COURT: Yes.
18 Have you got that there?
19 THE WITNESS: I'm sorry. My phone was going
20 off.
21 THE COURT: I think he's trying to hide from
22 me that he's ignoring the signs that are on the doors
23 that say no phones.
24 THE WITNESS: I'm sorry, your Honor. I
25 thought it was turned off.
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
Volume 14, Page 1807
1 THE COURT: Turn your phones off, folks.
2 MR. FUGATE: Mine's off.
3 THE WITNESS: I apologize, your Honor.
4 THE COURT: Okay.
5 THE WITNESS: I thought it was off.
6 BY MR. FUGATE:
7 Q Now, my question was, Do you have that lawsuit
8 there in front of you?
9 A I do. And you asked me to go to the operating
10 agreement, Exhibit A.
11 Q Yes, go to Exhibit A.
12 A Yes.
13 Q And we started over this, but you are the person
14 identified as the investor in the beginning of the
15 contract, correct?
16 A Well, the investor -- Mr. Alexander is identified
17 as the producer, and together we're collectively referred
18 to as a member -- I'm sorry, collectively as the members,
19 yes.
20 Q Now, it indicates -- if you want to read through
21 it, I'll just represent to you that in the agreement and
22 the attachments, it indicates that you are 50 percent owner
23 and Mr. Alexander is 50 percent owner in Courage
24 Productions and in The Profit, I guess. Is that your
25 understanding?
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
Volume 14, Page 1808
1 A Well, in Courage Productions, and the only asset
2 of Courage Productions is the movie.
3 Q But how much did you invest as opposed to --
4 THE COURT: Is this really relevant?
5 MR. FUGATE: It will be in a moment, Judge.
6 THE COURT: I'll be patient.
7 MR. FUGATE: And I'll be very quick.
8 A I think I put in 2.4 million, and Mr. Alexander
9 put in $100.
10 BY MR. FUGATE:
11 Q And you still today are a 50 percent owner,
12 although you provided all the funding? Is that your
13 understanding?
14 A Yes.
15 Q Now, according to the contract --
16 And, Judge, I'm going to ask him to go look at
17 Article IV, paragraph 4.2.
18 Can you flip over to that, sir?
19 A Yes, I'm there.
20 Q All right. You see it says "Acts requiring
21 unanimous consent"?
22 A Yes.
23 Q Can you read what it says.
24 A "Notwithstanding the foregoing, no member shall
25 have the authority without the written consent or
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
Volume 14, Page 1809
1 ratification of all the other members to do any of the acts
2 enumerated below."
3 Q All right. And if you flip ahead to 4.2.5, can
4 you read that.
5 THE COURT: And remember, please, when
6 you're reading --
7 THE WITNESS: Slow down.
8 THE COURT: -- my court reporter needs to
9 take it down.
10 THE WITNESS: Yes, your Honor.
11 A 4.2.5 says, "Contest a judgment against the
12 company, submit a company claim to arbitration, commence
13 any legal action on behalf of the company, settle any
14 arbitration or litigation or confess a judgment against the
15 company."
16 BY MR. FUGATE:
17 Q Now, Exhibit -- Defense Exhibit 139 purports to
18 be a lawsuit filed by Courage Productions against Stacy
19 Brooks, John Beats, and Mark Bunker.
20 A Yes.
21 Q Is that your understanding?
22 A That is.
23 Q And you are aware that this lawsuit was served on
24 Stacy Brooks here at the courthouse?
25 A Yes, I'm aware of that.
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
Volume 14, Page 1810
1 Q Did anyone get your consent or agreement to
2 engage in litigation regarding Courage Productions or The
3 Profit?
4 A No. And I would point out in that connection
5 the -- you know, Mark Bunker already -- in fact, I'm the
6 person who put those three clips on the LMTI Web site, and
7 I gave Mark Bunker a letter dated the 11th of -- well --
8 well, the day after they were put on the Web site -- I
9 forget the date now. I think it was -- I don't know
10 whether -- these months are -- whether it was the 11th of
11 May or April, I'm not sure at this stage.
12 Q I don't blame you.
13 A I gave him a letter signed for and on behalf of
14 Courage Productions authorizing him to have these on the
15 Web site, subject to me being -- asking him to remove them
16 at a later date. A copy of that letter was sent to the
17 same people who were copied on the original Digital
18 Millennium Copyright Act notice, and that included
19 Mr. Dandar, Mr. Lirot, Ms. Greenway, Mr. Bunker, and the
20 Internet service provider who hosted the LMT Web site,
21 pacer.com, who was also one of the defendants in this named
22 lawsuit.
23 THE COURT: This seems to be taking an awful
24 long time. I still don't understand the relevance.
25 Okay?
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
Volume 14, Page 1811
1 MR. FUGATE: Judge, I gave you my word.
2 THE COURT: Okay.
3 BY MR. FUGATE:
4 Q If you look at Exhibit D -- can I ask you to flip
5 to that?
6 A Okay. D. Yes.
7 Q Do you see the four clips that were put on,
8 according to the allegation of the lawsuit?
9 A Well, this -- this Exhibit D, I don't know
10 whether that's what they alleged was put on, but that's not
11 what -- these are not the clips that are in question.
12 There are three clips, not four.
13 This related to an earlier notice that was sent
14 to me, a Digital Millennium Copyright Act notice, back
15 in -- well, the document will speak for itself as to when
16 it was done. But this was the -- these were the four
17 clips.
18 THE COURT: The long and the short of it is
19 you've asked him to look at D. D is there. I don't
20 know what he's talking about. There's D.
21 BY MR. FUGATE:
22 Q Well, the clips that were being complained of,
23 there's a letter, which is Exhibit F, from Mr. Lirot to you
24 dated February 14th, 2002 --
25 A Correct.
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
Volume 14, Page 1812
1 Q -- asking -- do you see that there?
2 A Yes.
3 Q Go ahead.
4 A This was -- this was the letter that involved
5 those four clips that we eventually agreed that -- Stacy
6 Brooks agreed to take down off of our Web site as part of
7 Mr. Dandar brokering this deal with Patricia Greenway.
8 Q Which deal was that?
9 A Well, the deal to stop this smear campaign that
10 was going on on the Internet following Mr. Dandar's visit
11 to New Hampshire on the 22nd or 23rd, approximately, of
12 February.
13 Q And what were you supposed to do, as you
14 understood it, according to the deal?
15 A Well, keep in mind that I was asleep when the
16 deal was made. I was advised by Stacy Brooks that -- she
17 didn't ask me whether it was okay to take these down. She
18 just went ahead and agreed to do it, that they would stop
19 their smear campaign and --
20 Q And who is "they"?
21 A Mr. Dandar's friends.
22 THE COURT: Well, now, that's no good.
23 "They" are Mr. Dandar's friends. Who are "they"?
24 THE WITNESS: Okay. I'll identify them.
25 I'm sorry, I didn't mean to -- I apologize. I thought
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
Volume 14, Page 1813
1 I had identified them before. Patricia Greenway,
2 Deanna Holmes, and Shirley Wilson were the principal
3 ones.
4 BY MR. FUGATE:
5 Q The people you talked about on cross and direct
6 before?
7 A Yes.
8 Q And the clips were the clips, as we can see, all
9 folks that were involved in LMT and also the wrongful death
10 litigation?
11 A Yes. And, you know, as part of -- apparently as
12 part of this deal, Mr. Dandar told these people about this
13 money that was coming from me and that they had to shut up.
14 And, you know, it was -- they posted about this on the
15 Internet after all this stuff with this hearing started.
16 Q Posted what?
17 A That -- you know, that their free speech had been
18 gagged, that they were blackmailed by Minton, that
19 Mr. Minton wanted to make sure they shut up before he gave
20 the 250,000 to Mr. Dandar. And they felt like they had
21 been used by me. I mean, you know, I didn't -- yes, I
22 mean, it was Mr. Dandar who talked to them, but, you know,
23 of course I got the blame for it. And that somehow this
24 was part of a setup of Mr. Dandar, that this -- you know,
25 that I had already met with the Church of Scientology, that
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
Volume 14, Page 1814
1 this check was a setup to get Mr. Dandar in trouble, you
2 know, and it's --
3 Q That's -- so we're clear, that's what the
4 Internet postings are about?
5 A That's what Deanna Holmes and Shirley Wilson
6 said.
7 Q And the check that we're talking about is the UBS
8 check, the 93 H?
9 A The March 7th, 2002, check for 250,000.
10 Q Now, if you have the letter from Mr. Lirot there,
11 if you look down in the second paragraph, do you see there
12 where Mr. Lirot is indicating that his clients have become
13 involved in the wrongful death case and they don't want to
14 be embroiled in it or something to that effect?
15 A Right.
16 THE COURT: Now, I haven't found it. Tell
17 me where you're reading from.
18 MR. FUGATE: If you see, "It is my
19 understanding various segments --"
20 THE WITNESS: Fourth line in the second
21 paragraph.
22 MR. FUGATE: There you go.
23 THE COURT: Okay. I found it.
24 BY MR. FUGATE:
25 Q Were you aware, sir, that Mr. Lirot had filed a
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
Volume 14, Page 1815
1 motion for protective order to stop any discovery into your
2 funding? In other words, the checks that you had provided
3 to Courage Productions for the funding of The Profit. Were
4 you aware that Mr. Lirot had filed a protective order and
5 had a hearing on that?
6 A I was not aware of that. You know, since January
7 of this year, I haven't had any contact -- since January,
8 no contact with Patricia Greenway and Peter Alexander other
9 than a few brief words with Ms. Greenway, you know, in the
10 setting of this courthouse.
11 Q Now, do you, sir, have an opinion -- you've
12 indicated you didn't authorize any lawsuit to be filed
13 against Stacy Brooks or Mark Bunker. Do you have any
14 opinion as to why it was filed by Mr. Lirot?
15 A Well, my belief is that this was purely
16 harassment of me, rather than any of the named parties.
17 Q I'm sorry, I didn't --
18 A I believe that this was purely an attempt to
19 harass me, get me upset, you know, get me to have a --
20 THE COURT: Honestly, aren't we a little far
21 afield here? This is some man giving his opinion and
22 his belief as to why somebody filed a lawsuit against
23 him. That cannot be relevant here.
24 MR. FUGATE: Well, Judge, I think --
25 THE COURT: You can argue whatever you want
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
Volume 14, Page 1816
1 to, but I don't have to sit here and listen to him --
2 an opinion comes from an expert. He's certainly not
3 that.
4 MR. FUGATE: Well, obviously, Judge, I
5 disagree, but I will move on.
6 BY MR. FUGATE:
7 Q Did you -- are you aware of any other funding for
8 Courage Production other than the $2.4 million that you
9 provided?
10 A No.
11 Q Did you authorize the expenditure, as the
12 contract requires, of any of those funds to be used to file
13 a lawsuit against Stacy Brooks?
14 A No.
15 Q And under the terms of the contract, if there
16 were to be -- well, under the terms of the suit, if there
17 were recovery from Stacy Brooks, who would be the pocket
18 that the recovery would come out of, if you know?
19 A Well, I'm quite certain it would be me.
20 Q And under the terms of the contract, if you
21 didn't authorize this, this is, in your judgment then, an
22 improper --
23 THE COURT: Counselor, I just can't stand it
24 any longer. You've got to get off this. I don't
25 think this is relevant. I still don't think it's
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
Volume 14, Page 1817
1 relevant. You can argue that it's relevant, but you
2 sure can't get into this crazy thing and what about
3 this other lawsuit, some other lawsuit for some other
4 day, filed by Patricia Greenway against Ms. Brooks.
5 Move on to the next whole item.
6 MR. FUGATE: I'm moving on, Judge.
7 THE COURT: Thank you. I mean, gosh, I
8 guess what you're asking me to do is speculate that
9 Ms. Brooks isn't capable of getting a job, she's not
10 capable of working, that somehow or another she's
11 going to be forever supported by this man and that she
12 is a dumb broad who can't do anything. I'm not going
13 to go there.
14 MR. FUGATE: No, Judge. The point is this
15 lawsuit wasn't authorized. It was filed by --
16 THE COURT: Why do I care about that? He
17 can bring his own lawsuit. Why do I care about that?
18 MR. FUGATE: Well, I think that there's been
19 a counter allegation that we've filed lawsuits to
20 create some sort of intimidation, and I think this is
21 evidence that there have been lawsuits filed from the
22 other side that he indicates in his opinion to
23 intimidate him and Stacy Brooks.
24 THE COURT: Oh, okay. Well, if that's what
25 it's being introduced for, go on ahead and finish that
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
Volume 14, Page 1818
1 up.
2 MR. FUGATE: I think I really have, Judge.
3 THE COURT: Well, if you haven't, go on
4 ahead. If that's honestly what you're doing, well, do
5 it. Finish it.
6 BY MR. FUGATE:
7 Q Do you believe, sir, that it was filed to
8 intimidate you and/or Stacy Brooks?
9 A I do. And I believe, you know, that Mr. Dandar
10 has talked about, you know, my, quote, mental breakdowns,
11 that this was just part of trying to get me really upset
12 here on the witness stand.
13 THE COURT: Well, you weren't even sued,
14 were you?
15 THE WITNESS: Well, your Honor, you know, I
16 think they purposely didn't sue me, even though they
17 knew I was the one who put the clips up there, because
18 I was a witness and that that would have been too
19 overt and that therefore, you know, Stacy Brooks and
20 Mark Bunker were targets.
21 THE COURT: It's all right. I just assumed
22 you were a bigger fellow than to be intimidated by
23 this, to be honest with you. I feel sorry if you were
24 intimidated. I don't like Ms. Brooks being sued in my
25 court, but I certainly don't want a witness
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
Volume 14, Page 1819
1 intimidated by this thing, whatever it is.
2 THE WITNESS: Your Honor, I wouldn't call
3 it -- I would call it harassment.
4 THE COURT: Well, I might call it
5 harassment, but that isn't what he asked you. He
6 asked if you were intimidated, and you said you were.
7 THE WITNESS: Well --
8 THE COURT: I find that a little farfetched,
9 but that's what you said.
10 THE WITNESS: Well, may I change that
11 testimony then, your Honor?
12 THE COURT: You may.
13 THE WITNESS: I believe it would fall more
14 into the category of harassment.
15 THE COURT: That I could buy. Intimidated,
16 I simply cannot.
17 MR. FUGATE: Well, Judge, I should be
18 consulting the dictionary.
19 BY MR. FUGATE:
20 Q I would ask is it in your judgment then
21 harassment?
22 A Yes, sir.
23 MR. FUGATE: May I approach the witness,
24 your Honor?
25 THE COURT: You may.
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
Volume 14, Page 1820
1 MR. FUGATE: And I'm going to do this in
2 reverse order. I'm going to ask him to look at these
3 while I'm having them marked.
4 THE COURT: Okay.
5 MR. FUGATE: It'll be Defendant's 140.
6 Oops.
7 THE WITNESS: Okay, thank you.
8 MR. FUGATE: And it's a series of postings
9 that I'll submit as a composite.
10 THE COURT: Number, please?
11 MR. FUGATE: It's Defense Exhibit 140, a
12 composite of some postings, and I'm going to ask him
13 if he can identify --
14 THE COURT: Did we skip some numbers?
15 MR. FUGATE: Pardon me?
16 THE COURT: Did we skip some numbers? I had
17 the FACTNet Person of the Year at 134. I assume the
18 lawsuit was 135.
19 MR. FUGATE: No. The lawsuit was 139, and
20 the FACTNet was 1 -- it was 134. Maybe we did. Okay.
21 I'm sorry, Judge.
22 THE COURT: Something -- okay. This is 139,
23 this lawsuit?
24 MR. FUGATE: The lawsuit is 139.
25 THE COURT: Okay. Then you skipped
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
Volume 14, Page 1821
1 something in between 134 and 139, but that's all
2 right. It just won't be there. This is 140, is that
3 it?
4 MR. FUGATE: Yes, your Honor.
5 THE COURT: Okay.
6 MR. DANDAR: Judge, I object to the
7 introduction of new evidence on redirect examination.
8 It was never part of cross-examination.
9 THE COURT: You crossed for so long,
10 Counselor, you introduced so many postings -- I mean,
11 I'm going to have to take a look at it, but your
12 cross-examination, I let you just go everywhere. So I
13 suspect that I'm going to overrule your objection, but
14 let me take a look.
15 These are -- these are postings from whom?
16 MR. FUGATE: They -- as I read them, Judge,
17 are from Deanna Holmes, Tigger --
18 THE COURT: I might have some problem with
19 that. I mean, Mr. Minton's postings, as I recall, are
20 his postings, and I think there's some objections to
21 other people's postings. Let me -- at least when
22 Mr. Minton says "these are my postings," I have some
23 reason to believe there's some reliability. I don't
24 know who Deanna Holmes is. I don't know if this is
25 her posting or anything of the sort.
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
Volume 14, Page 1822
1 MR. FUGATE: Well, I'm just going to ask him
2 if he had seen these and if this is what he was
3 referring to a moment ago in his testimony.
4 THE COURT: You can do that, but I don't
5 know you can introduce them as evidence.
6 BY MR. FUGATE:
7 Q Have you had a chance to look at these,
8 Mr. Minton?
9 A Yes, I have. I haven't looked at all of them
10 yet, but the first two I looked at.
11 THE COURT: What does this mean down here
12 where it says "Mark Bunker"? Who wrote this thing?
13 THE WITNESS: It's one of those with these
14 carets again, your Honor. That's quoting something
15 Mark Bunker wrote.
16 THE COURT: This is Deanna Holmes, Deanna --
17 THE WITNESS: Deanna Holmes.
18 THE COURT: Putting something out there that
19 Mark Bunker --
20 THE WITNESS: Responding to something Mark
21 Bunker said. And what he said is: "Is Dandar
22 manipulating you to ask these questions? You stated
23 he did silence you to get more money from Bob."
24 And then her response --
25 THE COURT: Who is that from? Who is that
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
Volume 14, Page 1823
1 from and to? That's from Ms. Holmes to Mr. Bunker?
2 THE WITNESS: Yes. Yes, on this
3 alt.religion.scientology newsgroup.
4 THE COURT: Okay.
5 THE WITNESS: I've looked through them.
6 BY MR. FUGATE:
7 Q Can you identify those as postings that you read
8 about what you just testified about, people were accusing
9 you of blackmailing Ken Dandar and them, I guess?
10 A Yes, and them, you know, that I was blackmailing
11 them for their silence, you know, curtailing their free
12 speech rights so that Mr. Dandar could get this $250,000
13 check from me.
14 Q And these are dated in late April, so -- of 2002.
15 Is that correct?
16 A That's correct. This is after, you know, all of
17 this stuff started, "this stuff" being, you know, these
18 hearings and -- or, the, you know, approximately the same
19 time.
20 MR. FUGATE: Judge, I would move them into
21 evidence as Composite 140, subject to --
22 THE COURT: Well, I'll tell you what.
23 There's a lot of stuff that's strictly inadmissible
24 evidence that we've let in, so I'll let it in as an
25 example of what he's been talking about.
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
Volume 14, Page 1824
1 Again, as I've indicated to you all, not
2 that I'm saying that these are true or that they came
3 from these people, because there's no authenticity
4 here. It's just that he's identifying them as
5 examples of what he's been talking about. So only for
6 that purpose.
7 MR. DANDAR: Is this Exhibit -- Defendant's
8 Exhibit 140?
9 THE COURT: 140.
10 MR. DANDAR: The composite?
11 THE COURT: Yes.
12 MR. FUGATE: Now, unless you have any
13 questions about that, Judge, I'll move to another --
14 THE COURT: I don't. As I said, I can read
15 these at my leisure.
16 MR. WEINBERG: I guess this is what we're
17 supposed to be concerned about our children doing,
18 getting on these newsgroups and communicating back and
19 forth. It's --
20 THE COURT: Well, I've never chatted on the
21 Internet, and I don't think I'm going to either. As I
22 said, I like to shop and I like to do e-mail.
23 THE WITNESS: Your Honor, just if I may say
24 something about the Internet. There are a lot of
25 places on the Internet that -- where the type of stuff
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
Volume 14, Page 1825
1 that you see goes on in this newsgroup, you know,
2 where there's actually some sanity and politeness and,
3 you know, reasonableness in the communication with
4 each other. This one is a bit of an extreme, by
5 anybody's imagination, on the Internet.
6 THE COURT: Well, after all this is over,
7 I'm going to go there a few nights and just kind of
8 watch. What did you say those people were? They were
9 just the observers?
10 THE WITNESS: The lurkers.
11 THE COURT: The lurkers. I'll just go and
12 lurk and see what it's all about.
13 Continue on, Counselor.
14 MR. FUGATE: I'm going to go to sleep when
15 it's over, Judge.
16 BY MR. FUGATE:
17 Q You had been asked some questions by Mr. Dandar
18 in cross-examination about some meetings that you had in
19 1998 with Mr. Rinder and Mr. Rathbun. Do you remember
20 that?
21 A Yes.
22 Q Now, you also mentioned that you had been
23 presented with or shown the settlement agreement as part of
24 those conversations. Do you recall that, sir?
25 A I do.
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
Volume 14, Page 1826
1 MR. FUGATE: May I approach, your Honor?
2 THE COURT: You may.
3 MR. FUGATE: And this will be 141, leaving
4 135 for whatever behind.
5 THE COURT: This is an extra copy of this
6 lawsuit. It's awfully thick. Would you like to take
7 it back?
8 MR. FUGATE: Thank you.
9 THE COURT: I have it.
10 MR. FUGATE: I'll put it in a notebook.
11 This is going to be 141?
12 THE CLERK: Yes.
13 MR. FUGATE: Show you what has been marked
14 as Defendant's Exhibit 141 for identification.
15 Did I give this to you?
16 BY MR. FUGATE:
17 Q Would you take a moment and look at this and see
18 if you recognize --
19 A Do you mind if I read through it, because --
20 Q No, I don't.
21 A Yes.
22 MR. FUGATE: With the Court's permission.
23 THE COURT: No problem.
24 I'm sorry, what again is this?
25 MR. FUGATE: It's a copy of a confidential
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
Volume 14, Page 1827
1 settlement agreement, a mutual general release --
2 THE COURT: That you talked about that
3 happened back in --
4 MR. FUGATE: Yes.
5 THE WITNESS: A copy of it, so . . .
6 THE COURT: Okay.
7 MR. DANDAR: How come it's not signed?
8 Can't we have a signed copy?
9 MR. FUGATE: I think he testified that he
10 didn't enter into it.
11 MR. DANDAR: My mistake, sorry.
12 THE COURT: This is the one where he had met
13 with Mr. Rinder?
14 MR. FUGATE: And Mr. -- yes, in L.A. and in
15 Boston.
16 THE COURT: Mr. Rathbun?
17 MR. FUGATE: Mr. Rathbun.
18 THE COURT: They had thought maybe something
19 could be worked out, it wasn't, they left, and then
20 there were postings about the meetings. Okay.
21 MR. FUGATE: You asked him do you remember
22 anything about the agreement --
23 THE COURT: Okay.
24 MR. FUGATE: -- so here it is.
25 THE COURT: Well, thank you.
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
Volume 14, Page 1828
1 MR. FUGATE: Well, I assume that. I'm
2 asking him to take a look at it.
3 BY MR. FUGATE:
4 Q I'm sorry, have you had an opportunity --
5 A Yes, I have.
6 Q Do you recognize that draft agreement?
7 A Yes, I do.
8 Q Is that the draft agreement or the agreement that
9 was under discussion in the conversations that you told the
10 Court about in Mr. Dandar's cross-examination?
11 A During, I believe, that third meeting in Los
12 Angeles. The third of the three meetings --
13 Q Okay.
14 A -- which was in Los Angeles.
15 Q Now, as you read it, do you see what the
16 consideration for each side was in the agreement?
17 A Yes, I did.
18 Q Dollar each?
19 A Right, the monetary consideration, yes.
20 Q Right, I'm sorry, monetary. And it's -- do you
21 see that it's a reciprocal agreement throughout for you and
22 for the Church of Scientology?
23 A Yes.
24 Q Now, at this point in time, you had been in -- in
25 1998, you had been involved in FACTNet, and you were also
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
Volume 14, Page 1829
1 involved in the Lisa McPherson wrongful death litigation
2 funding. Is that correct?
3 A That's correct.
4 Q And we've already heard talk about all the other
5 things that have gone on. But in any event, you were --
6 you did have a meeting. And in that meeting -- basically
7 was it a meeting to talk about walking away from the
8 litigation on both sides of the equation?
9 A Well, it became that. You know, there wasn't a
10 sort of fixed agenda for it. This just came up during the
11 course of the discussions.
12 Q And as you just read through that, do you see
13 anything to your eye that is in this proposed agreement
14 that was coercive or unfair as you look at it today?
15 A You know, reading through it, you know, I wish to
16 God I had signed it.
17 Q But at the time it had happened -- and you
18 already testified about that -- did you consider it to be
19 harassive, the attempt to settle, as you testified?
20 A No. My two main objections at the time related
21 to the restrictions on free speech and the fact that we
22 really never got around to having any serious discussions
23 about these reforms that Stacy Brooks and I tried to talk
24 about.
25 MR. FUGATE: I would move the agreement into
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
Volume 14, Page 1830
1 evidence as the proposed agreement that he was shown.
2 MR. DANDAR: It's not the agreement; it's a
3 proposal only. And I have no objection on that basis.
4 THE COURT: All right. It'll come in.
5 BY MR. FUGATE:
6 Q Is this the agreement that you were talking about
7 in cross-examination, sir?
8 THE COURT: He's already asked and answered
9 that. Move on to the next one.
10 BY MR. FUGATE:
11 Q And after June, July, August, whatever it was in
12 1998 that you had this meeting with Mr. Rinder, did you
13 continue to fund the Lisa McPherson wrongful death case?
14 A Yes, I did.
15 Q And at some point if we looked at the dates of
16 the checks in Defense Exhibit 93, we could determine how
17 much, if it were more than a million five or something of
18 that nature after these agreement proposals? Would that be
19 accurate?
20 THE COURT: Counsel, it is what it is. You
21 can make all those arguments at the time of closing.
22 Those checks are in --
23 MR. FUGATE: I'm trying to --
24 THE COURT: I know, but you're going to have
25 to wait for argument for some of it.
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
Volume 14, Page 1831
1 MR. FUGATE: I will, Judge.
2 THE COURT: I mean, I can't wait for him to
3 go back, pick up the checks, go count them, and all
4 that stuff.
5 MR. FUGATE: I'm not even going to ask him
6 to do that.
7 THE COURT: All right.
8 MR. FUGATE: I'm going to move on to another
9 area, Judge. I don't know if you want to take a break
10 or if you want to keep going.
11 THE COURT: Keep going.
12 BY MR. FUGATE:
13 Q Okay. Now, with regard to the breach case, in
14 the breach case in Florida and the breach case -- well, let
15 me ask this. You've been added as a party to the breach
16 here in Florida. Is that correct?
17 A That's correct.
18 Q And you've been added as a party to the
19 counterclaim in the wrongful death case. Is that correct,
20 sir?
21 A That is.
22 Q Now, were you aware that -- that the Religious
23 Technology Center had obtained a judgment in Texas on the
24 breach allegations there related to the wrongful death
25 lawsuit?
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
Volume 14, Page 1832
1 A I think I heard it mentioned in here, some
2 300-plus thousand. Yes, I was aware that there was a
3 judgment.
4 Q And were you aware that there had been a judgment
5 as to liability entered in the wrongful -- or, in the
6 breach case here in Florida, and it was -- what was pending
7 was the amount of damages to be awarded?
8 A Yes, I understand that.
9 Q Now, sir --
10 THE COURT: How can somebody be added after
11 the liability comes down?
12 MR. FUGATE: Judge, all I know is that I
13 understood he was added as a party --
14 THE COURT: Mr. Howie, did you let him be
15 added as a party after liability had been determined?
16 MR. HOWIE: It's my consideration that we
17 still have our defenses as to --
18 MR. FUGATE: I stand corrected, Judge.
19 THE COURT: Yes. If there's a summary
20 judgment been entered, you can't come along and add
21 somebody who wasn't even there.
22 MR. FUGATE: I stand corrected. It's a
23 different count of that.
24 BY MR. FUGATE:
25 Q Let me ask you this. You are aware that a
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
Volume 14, Page 1833
1 summary judgment has been entered in the breach case
2 against the personal representative of the Estate?
3 A In the Clearwater case.
4 Q In Clearwater.
5 A Yes.
6 THE COURT: But not against him.
7 MR. FUGATE: I apologize.
8 MR. WEINBERG: There's no judgment -- right.
9 It's a different count, and it's a different --
10 THE COURT: Yes, but he kept talking about
11 the breach. In the breach count there's a summary
12 judgment been entered, but not against him. He's been
13 added as a tortious interference, if I had to guess,
14 but that's not what he was saying.
15 MR. WEINBERG: The tortious interference
16 hasn't been litigated.
17 THE COURT: Right.
18 MR. FUGATE: It's already 4:30 for me,
19 Judge. I'm sorry.
20 THE COURT: Already 4:30.
21 BY MR. FUGATE:
22 Q My question is, You are aware that there was a
23 summary judgment as to the Estate -- the personal
24 representative of the Estate in the Clearwater case?
25 A Yes, I'm aware of that.
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
Volume 14, Page 1834
1 THE COURT: Can somebody tell me -- I was
2 looking at that the other day. I saw Mr. Dandar was a
3 party, but then I saw that there was -- in a judgment
4 it was reflected as a judgment against the personal
5 representative and her individually. It did not seem
6 to mention Mr. Dandar.
7 Were you dismissed?
8 MR. DANDAR: In the breach case before Judge
9 Baird, there's a summary judgment on the first amended
10 complaint against the Estate only. They have since
11 filed -- recently, they're moving to file a fourth
12 amended complaint, where they add me and Dr. Garko and
13 Mr. --
14 THE COURT: This is way more than I want to
15 know.
16 MR. DANDAR: All right.
17 THE COURT: There is no summary judgment
18 against you.
19 MR. DANDAR: No. And there's no order by
20 the Court to permit them to sue me yet.
21 MR. WEINBERG: But in Texas -- what you're
22 talking about, what you looked at, in Texas the order
23 that the federal judge has issued assessed -- of the
24 attorneys' fees, assessed I think 98,000 of it
25 personally against Mr. Dandar.
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
Volume 14, Page 1835
1 THE COURT: I did see that. No. I'm
2 talking about what I saw was Judge Baird's --
3 something in his suit --
4 MR. WEINBERG: I'm sorry.
5 THE COURT: -- that there was a summary
6 judgment entered, but it was not entered against
7 Mr. Dandar.
8 MR. WEINBERG: That's correct.
9 THE COURT: Although as I looked up in the
10 body, I saw he was named. So I wanted to know what
11 happened to him.
12 MR. WEINBERG: It's just the Estate.
13 THE COURT: Okay. Thank you.
14 MR. DANDAR: I was originally sued and
15 abated. So now they want to bring me back in.
16 THE COURT: Okay. So you have not been
17 dismissed as a party. It's just been abated; the suit
18 has been abated as to you.
19 MR. DANDAR: Until now.
20 THE COURT: Okay.
21 MR. FUGATE: May I proceed, your Honor?
22 THE COURT: You may. Sorry I asked.
23 MR. FUGATE: 4:30 all over.
24 THE COURT: Right.
25 BY MR. FUGATE:
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
Volume 14, Page 1836
1 Q Now, if the -- the breaches -- if the breaches
2 indeed occurred in 1999 with regard to the fifth amended
3 complaint -- which I won't even go back into all that
4 discussion -- this was at a time you were still providing
5 funding to the wrongful death lawsuit. Is that correct,
6 sir?
7 A That's right.
8 Q And without your funding, do you -- do you have
9 any opinion as to whether or not there would have been any
10 breach or the case would have just gone on as it originally
11 was in the first wrongful death complaint?
12 MR. DANDAR: Speculation and legal opinion.
13 THE COURT: Sustained.
14 BY MR. FUGATE:
15 Q Do you think that your providing of your funding
16 to the Estate caused the expansion of the lawsuit that
17 we've been talking about, the wrongful death lawsuit?
18 MR. DANDAR: Objection, speculation.
19 THE COURT: I think he can answer if he
20 knows, but I don't think he can speculate and tell us
21 what he thinks.
22 A I can't answer it the way the Judge has
23 suggested.
24 BY MR. FUGATE:
25 Q Well, would you tell us again what your purpose
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
Volume 14, Page 1837
1 is in funding and adding the monies to the lawsuit were for
2 as it relates to the Church of Scientology?
3 THE COURT: Don't need that, because I
4 already know the answer to that. You can save it, you
5 can argue it, you can do whatever. But he can't be
6 asked to speculate here as to what was going on in
7 somebody else's head or whatever.
8 BY MR. FUGATE:
9 Q When you were talking about the meeting that you
10 had in New York in response to cross-examination questions
11 from Mr. Dandar -- and this would be the --
12 A The pre-Easter.
13 Q Right, pre-Easter. You said something about you
14 perceived yourself as the deep pocket. Can you tell us
15 what you meant.
16 A Well, that the -- that the liabilities that could
17 relate to particularly the Florida cases, as they were
18 referred to, and the Wollersheim case, that -- that I could
19 be come after for -- be responsible in some way for
20 liabilities in connection with any costs that Scientology
21 had to pay out in either of those cases and that, you know,
22 they obviously weren't going to get -- you know, as things
23 stood at the time, you know, I was aware of this judgment
24 in Texas and was aware that there was still to be
25 determined the attorney costs.
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
Volume 14, Page 1838
1 And, you know, I thought that at some stage
2 Scientology would try to move in to the probate court and
3 try to, you know, do something based on these judgments
4 against the Estate and that ultimately that, since there's
5 nobody else that is involved in this, you know, Dell
6 Liebreich or Mr. Dandar, that if anybody was going to be
7 looking for money, they were going to be looking for money
8 from me with respect to those cases because of my
9 involvement in funding.
10 And, you know, the same with regards to
11 Wollersheim. I mean, it's a little different with regards
12 to Wollersheim, but, you know, I was concerned that there
13 would be monetary penalties -- you know, that a lawsuit
14 would get filed against me to recover some of the money
15 they paid out to Wollersheim, "they" being Scientology.
16 Q Now, prior to the New York meetings of the 28th
17 and the 29th of March, had you -- and I don't -- I don't
18 want to get into any communications -- but had you been
19 made aware that the -- either the Court in the wrongful
20 death case or the Church was going to seek to add you as a
21 party in the counterclaim?
22 A Before that meeting?
23 Q Yes.
24 A I --
25 Q If you remember.
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
Volume 14, Page 1839
1 A Yes. I believe that -- that an attorney -- I
2 don't remember who from. I believe it was Mr. Moxon,
3 actually, had discussed this matter with Mr. Howie, you
4 know, to indicate that that was likely to happen.
5 Q Have you ever had any discussions with Mr. Dandar
6 about the Estate being judgment-proof because essentially
7 it had no assets?
8 A He used that term. And clearly, there weren't
9 any assets other than, according to Mr. Dandar, what was
10 never left of monies that he was using on this case because
11 they were always spent.
12 Q So when you used the term "deep pocket," how did
13 you perceive yourself in relation to the breach case and
14 the wrongful death case from the counterclaim perspective?
15 A Well, I considered that I potentially could face,
16 you know, substantial financial liability.
17 Q Now, I think you also mentioned in
18 cross-examination -- I'm sorry, I interrupted you.
19 A Well, you know, because I was convinced that --
20 Q I saw you raise your hand, and I assumed --
21 A I was convinced that if there was a way in the
22 litigation arena for the Church of Scientology to find to
23 come after me relative to whatever happened in those cases
24 that they would -- they would find a way and that one way
25 or another, you know, they were going to be coming after
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
Volume 14, Page 1840
1 me.
2 You know, I have no doubt about the abilities of
3 the Church of Scientology's legal team to come up with ways
4 in which a lot of people don't ever come up with to come
5 after somebody, and that was a concern.
6 THE COURT: Mr. Minton, the word "deep
7 pocket" comes from an agency concept, which I taught
8 for three years in law school. "Agency" means go
9 after the man with deep pockets. Deep pockets is the
10 moneyman. That's what you always teach in law school.
11 That's not something that just the Church of
12 Scientology knows. Every lawyer that practices law
13 knows you go for the guy with the money. That's the
14 guy with the deep pockets.
15 THE WITNESS: Okay. I didn't mean to imply
16 that this wasn't a common concept. It's just that
17 I've never been involved in any kind of litigation,
18 and, you know, I saw where this term came from.
19 THE COURT: Okay. Just understand that
20 that's the way it is, whether it's a court here or
21 whether it's a court in Texas or whether it's a court
22 in Mississippi.
23 THE WITNESS: Yes.
24 THE COURT: You know, a lawyer is looking
25 for the man that's got the money to pay the judgment.
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
Volume 14, Page 1841
1 So you're always going after the guy with the deep
2 pocket, if you can.
3 THE WITNESS: Yes, your Honor. I'm going to
4 remember that very carefully.
5 THE COURT: Always remember that, because
6 you have defined yourself as a man with a deep pocket.
7 And that's correct. Wherever you are sued, you will
8 be considered the man with the deep pocket.
9 BY MR. FUGATE:
10 Q Now, one of the other things that was mentioned
11 in cross-examination and I think in one of your answers was
12 there was some reference to the costs that the Church
13 had -- that had occurred -- accrued to the Church because
14 of you bringing LMT and moving in next door to the Church's
15 staff dining room. Do you recall that?
16 A I do. I think I characterized that as security
17 injunction-related expenses.
18 Q We don't have the time or the energy to get into
19 all the injunction motions back and forth before Judge
20 Penick, but you were obviously --
21 THE COURT: Thank goodness.
22 MR. FUGATE: Believe me, I don't want to,
23 Judge.
24 THE COURT: Good.
25 BY MR. FUGATE:
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
Volume 14, Page 1842
1 Q But you were involved in that in funding the
2 lawyers on your side for all of those proceedings. Is that
3 correct?
4 A That's correct.
5 Q Now, your -- what was your purpose in moving into
6 the building right next door to the staff dining room?
7 A Well --
8 THE COURT: Has he not covered this?
9 MR. FUGATE: He has, Judge.
10 THE COURT: I think he has.
11 THE WITNESS: Yes, I think we did do that.
12 BY MR. FUGATE:
13 Q And I'll lead you just to get to the point that I
14 want to make. I think you said that was to be in the face
15 of Scientology?
16 A Right.
17 Q And as part of being in the face, besides the
18 pickets which you've talked about, did -- did you,
19 Mr. Prince, and others in the LMT make a practice of
20 standing outside, across the street so you're outside of
21 the 10-foot limit, and basically yelling at staff with
22 bullhorns and things of that nature?
23 A Yes, we did.
24 Q And those were all sorts of verbal comments. I
25 would ask you if they were directed at, in your judgment,
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
Volume 14, Page 1843
1 trying to create turmoil within the staff members in --
2 A Well, generally, yes. But, you know,
3 specifically that would -- would that newspaper headline of
4 the St. Petersburg Times when Mr. Miscavige was added as a
5 defendant -- that was clearly trying to create -- what we
6 were doing out there was clearly trying to create turmoil,
7 that -- you know, implying by what we were saying, you
8 know, with this newspaper article in hand that, you know,
9 Mr. Miscavige was going to be removed, that the Church was
10 going to be turned upside-down, and, you know, we hoped
11 good people come in to take over.
12 You know, that was, you know, definitely designed
13 to excite the Scientologists, you know, the 1500 plus who
14 were coming in there for lunch or breakfast or dinner, you
15 know, to put doubts in their minds about Mr. Miscavige.
16 Q And after you began that practice of picketing,
17 moving in next door to LMT, did you -- before you began
18 that practice, how, to your observation, did the staff come
19 and go to the dining room?
20 A Some walked. There's a large building -- I think
21 it's called the Coachman Building -- across the street on
22 Cleveland Street. They would, you know, walk down to the
23 corner of Fort Harrison and Cleveland and cross there and
24 walk in front of the bank building and around to the side
25 door.
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
Volume 14, Page 1844
1 There were also people who were bused from, you
2 know, some of the outlying living quarters of the staff,
3 Hacienda Gardens and other places that were bused in.
4 People from the Sandcastle, I don't know whether they were
5 bused or walked over or whether they had their own eating
6 facilities there. I'm not sure.
7 Q Well, after you moved --
8 THE COURT: I don't know what the answer is.
9 The question was what happened after. I haven't heard
10 it yet.
11 MR. FUGATE: I'm going to ask that, Judge.
12 THE COURT: You already did.
13 What happened after you started this
14 picketing?
15 THE WITNESS: Oh, I'm sorry.
16 THE COURT: Not this picketing, but this
17 yelling at these people?
18 THE WITNESS: Well, the Church had to -- in
19 order to keep the people from hearing what was going
20 on out there, they started busing everybody.
21 THE COURT: Okay.
22 THE WITNESS: You know --
23 BY MR. FUGATE:
24 Q Was there a difference in the buses from when you
25 first got there to when you were there during the balance
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
Volume 14, Page 1845
1 of '99 and 2000?
2 A They -- yes, the buses got changed. There were
3 new buses purchased. I think they were, you know, from
4 the -- I think you did a deal with the City of Clearwater
5 to purchase a bunch of buses from them. But they were
6 different buses. They were bigger buses. They were louder
7 buses.
8 And, you know, the loudness of it was
9 basically -- the loudness of the buses was designed to sort
10 of drown out any noise that was coming from the other side
11 of the sidewalk as the people would be disembarking from
12 the buses to go into the bank building.
13 Q And were you aware that the Church hired off-duty
14 Clearwater police department officers to sit across the
15 street to, quote/unquote, I guess, keep the peace?
16 A Yes.
17 Q And do you remember approximately how long that
18 lasted in terms of having -- well, how many officers did
19 you see each day sitting directly across the street from
20 the staff dining hall entrance?
21 A I think there were two every day, and sometimes
22 there were more there, maybe one or two more. I'm not sure
23 whether they were, you know, coming by to give the other
24 people a break for a little while or -- but, you know, two
25 were there. There used to be a couple of police cars there
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
Volume 14, Page 1846
1 even. And I think -- you know, I mean, it was obviously a
2 lot of time and effort of manpower involved in those two
3 people sitting there.
4 Q And --
5 THE COURT: Are you about done with this
6 area? I'm about ready to take a break.
7 MR. FUGATE: Yes. I'll shut it right down,
8 Judge.
9 THE COURT: Okay.
10 BY MR. FUGATE:
11 Q In spite of the security officers being added and
12 busing people in, did that deter you and others from
13 continuing to yell about your opinions to the staff as they
14 came and went?
15 A Well, no, it didn't discourage us, but it
16 discouraged me after Judge Penick found me having violated
17 the injunction by holding the threep up on the way back to
18 the office and it was visible in the second-floor windows,
19 of the bank window.
20 THE COURT: The threep, is that that pole?
21 THE WITNESS: Yes, your Honor.
22 A And, you know, once that happened, you know,
23 there was an order to show cause for a lot of people. I
24 think there must have been 13 people who had orders to show
25 cause against them. And I'm the only one, unfortunately,
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1 who was found to have violated the injunction. Then I was
2 put on a six-month probation. And during -- during that
3 time period, I took what you would call a very low profile
4 to try to avoid getting in any trouble. And despite
5 that --
6 THE COURT: Are we really past where we need
7 to go here?
8 MR. FUGATE: Can we take a break?
9 THE COURT: Thanks. Honestly.
10 MR. FUGATE: We can take a break.
11 THE COURT: We're going to be in recess for
12 20 minutes.
13 (Recess taken at 10:30 until 11:06 a.m.)
14 THE COURT: You may be seated.
15 Sorry, I had a matter that I needed to
16 discuss with the Chief Judge. That's been done.
17 Continue.
18 MR. FUGATE: Judge, I'm not sure I moved in
19 Plaintiff's Exhibit 139 [sic], which was the lawsuit
20 with the attachments, but I will move it into evidence
21 at this point in time.
22 THE COURT: All right.
23 MR. DANDAR: Didn't you say that was
24 irrelevant, Judge?
25 THE COURT: I think it is. But they're
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1 going to argue it has some merit, some relevance, and
2 I'm going to let them do that.
3 MR. FUGATE: Judge, it's filed by
4 plaintiff's co-counsel.
5 THE COURT: That's true. I'm letting it in,
6 and you can make your argument.
7 MR. FUGATE: It also raises some other
8 issues for another day.
9 THE COURT: Save them for argument, if you
10 will.
11 MR. FUGATE: I get it.
12 BY MR. FUGATE:
13 Q Now, yesterday, I think, or the day before,
14 Mr. Dandar had asked you to identify and I think admitted
15 into evidence Plaintiff's Exhibit 76, which is a March 30th
16 e-mail letter that he mailed to you after apparently you
17 talked to him about the meetings and about -- that you were
18 going to have to reveal the checks, I think. Do you recall
19 that?
20 A I do. I do recall that letter, yes.
21 Q Now, in that, he says -- he says in the letter,
22 "I don't know how they are extorting you," and then goes on
23 later to say I guess there's extortion. Let me just cut to
24 the chase here, rather than going through a bunch of
25 questions. Do you feel as if you have been extorted by the
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1 Church of Scientology to produce the UBS checks or to
2 come -- and become a part of the filing of the affidavits,
3 et cetera, as Mr. Dandar has alleged?
4 A Absolutely not.
5 Q Now, instead of me going through a bunch of
6 questions, what -- can you tell us in your own words why
7 you believe you had to come back to Florida and do what has
8 occurred here, walk in to Mr. Rinder, give up checks, the
9 UBS checks --
10 THE COURT: Haven't we been through that,
11 Mr. Fugate? I mean, several times.
12 MR. FUGATE: All right.
13 THE COURT: I mean, if you don't agree, you
14 can go ahead -- because I know there have been times
15 when I said I'm not sure. But I'm sure of that. I
16 heard Mr. Minton explain several times why he felt he
17 needed to do this.
18 THE WITNESS: Your Honor, can I just add --
19 THE COURT: Yes. If there's something you
20 haven't said, you can add to it.
21 THE WITNESS: -- to what I said?
22 THE COURT: Sure.
23 A In terms of going to Mr. Rinder, first of all,
24 Mr. Rinder, to my belief -- you know, I may be wrong -- but
25 to my belief, he is the person who is responsible for all
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1 the litigation that Scientology is involved in. He -- the
2 way I looked at Mr. Rinder is he's sort of the triggerman.
3 And, you know, there was a gun aimed at me, at
4 Stacy Brooks, the LMT. You know, maybe Mr. Moxon is the
5 man aiming the gun, but Mr. Rinder has his finger on the
6 trigger. And, you know, I just -- I really believe that
7 the only way to try to resolve anything in terms of, quote,
8 global settlement with Scientology was to speak to the man
9 who had been pulling that trigger and that list of things
10 that you -- the time line of these discovery orders and
11 contempt motions and judges talking about jail time for
12 Stacy Brooks, for me.
13 You know, even -- even if it came to perjury and
14 coming to the Court to try to correct this without talking
15 to Scientology at all, you know, it was my belief, based on
16 their history with me and their history with Jesse Prince's
17 trial, that -- that they would be the -- also with
18 prosecutors in New Hampshire and in Massachusetts and the
19 prosecutor here, you know -- it was my feeling that -- that
20 if we came in and admitted any kind of perjury, that the
21 Church of Scientology's attorneys would do everything they
22 can, based on instructions from Mike Rinder, to pursue
23 those perjury charges to the hilt with the state attorney's
24 office.
25 And, you know, it wasn't -- you know, I thought
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1 about this some considerable period of time, e