1
1 IN THE CIRCUIT COURT FOR PINELLAS COUNTY, FLORIDA
CASE NO. 00-5682-CI-11
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3
4
DELL LIEBREICH, as Personal
5 Representative of the ESTATE OF
LISA McPHERSON,
6
7 Plaintiff,
8 vs. VOLUME 1
9 CHURCH OF SCIENTOLOGY FLAG
SERVICE ORGANIZATION, JANIS
10 JOHNSON, ALAIN KARTUZINSKI
and DAVID HOUGHTON, D.D.S.,
11
Defendants.
12
_______________________________________/
13
14
15 PROCEEDINGS: Defendants' Omnibus Motion for
Terminating Sanctions and Other Relief.
16
CONTENTS: Testimony of Brian Haney.
17 (Direct Examination)
18 DATE: June 19, 2002. Morning Session.
19 PLACE: Courtroom B, Judicial Building
St. Petersburg, Florida.
20
BEFORE: Honorable Susan F. Schaeffer,
21 Circuit Judge.
22 REPORTED BY: Lynne J. Ide, RMR.
Deputy Official Court Reporter,
23 Sixth Judicial Circuit of Florida.
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1 APPEARANCES:
2
MR. KENNAN G. DANDAR
3 DANDAR & DANDAR
5340 West Kennedy Blvd., Suite 201
4 Tampa, FL 33602
Attorney for Plaintiff.
5
6 MR. LUKE CHARLES LIROT
LUKE CHARLES LIROT, PA
7 112 N East Street, Street, Suite B
Tampa, FL 33602-4108
8 Attorney for Plaintiff
9
MR. KENDRICK MOXON
10 MOXON & KOBRIN
1100 Cleveland Street, Suite 900
11 Clearwater, FL 33755
Attorney for Church of Scientology Flag Service
12 Organization.
13
MR. LEE FUGATE
14 MR. MORRIS WEINBERG, JR.
ZUCKERMAN, SPAEDER
15 101 E. Kennedy Blvd, Suite 1200
Tampa, FL 33602-5147
16 Attorney for Church of Scientology Flag Service
Organization.
17
18 MR. ERIC M. LIEBERMAN
RABINOWITZ, BOUDIN, STANDARD
19 740 Broadway at Astor Place
New York, NY 10003-9518
20 Attorney for Church of Scientology Flag Service
Organization.
21
22 MR. RICHARD D. ROGOVIN
Bricker & Eckler, LLP
23 100 South Third Street
Columbus, Ohio 43215-4291
24 Attorney for Hugh Brian Haney.
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1 APPEARANCES:
(Continued)
2
3 MR. ROBERT J. HEALY, JR.
Fowler, White, Boggs & Banker
4 501 First Avenue North
Suite 900
5 St. Petersburg, Florida 33701
Attorney for Digital Lightwave.
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1 THE COURT: Good morning, everybody.
2 Okay, let's see. I did a rough order this
3 morning, and the secretary hopefully will type it,
4 on the tape, and we'll get that out to Mr. Keane
5 before I leave, so whenever he gets done
6 redrafting -- I'm not going to do it, I'm going to
7 let him do it because I hope he has it on a disk or
8 something where he can make it easier than my
9 redoing it. So hopefully I'll get that out.
10 Now, Mr. Dandar, did you have a chance to go
11 through these documents?
12 MR. DANDAR: Yes, I did.
13 THE COURT: Okay.
14 MR. DANDAR: And --
15 THE COURT: Wait a second. Let me get them.
16 Madam Clerk, I had a chance to read these, you
17 can go ahead and file these.
18 I'm going to -- this affidavit of Mr. Prince
19 that I didn't think I had seen, once I got to
20 reading it, I had seen it, I believe, in connection
21 with the motion on false imprisonment --
22 MR. DANDAR: All right.
23 THE COURT: -- I believe.
24 MR. DANDAR: That is probably -- that is true.
25 THE COURT: I had seen it and I was trying to
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1 figure out where I had seen it. And it may have
2 been something you filed in conjunction with the
3 summary judgment on the false imprisonment.
4 MR. DANDAR: Okay.
5 THE COURT: But if it wasn't there, I saw it
6 somewhere else. I have seen it. I reread it.
7 MR. DANDAR: All right.
8 THE COURT: These are documents for today.
9 Okay, I'll address with you this little packet
10 of information I got, the big packet, both of which
11 you got, and then I want to talk about 211 that has
12 been introduced already that just came in yesterday.
13 Okay?
14 MR. DANDAR: Are you talking about Mr. Keane's
15 documents?
16 THE COURT: Yes.
17 MR. DANDAR: About LMT?
18 THE COURT: Yes.
19 MR. DANDAR: First of all, I filed another work
20 product letter. We don't know -- my
21 understanding -- we'll ask Mr. Prince when he gets
22 here -- my understanding is the LMT opened up its
23 office in January of 2000 in Clearwater. And
24 brand-new computers were purchased.
25 So I can't, for the life of me, figure out how
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1 the brand-new hard drives, January 2000, have
2 documents on them from 1998 from Mr. Young's
3 personal hard drive that he deleted.
4 It seems to me -- and we'll have to ask
5 Mr. Bunker or whoever produced hard drives -- if
6 they produced hard drives that did not belong to
7 LMT.
8 THE COURT: Well, I can only tell you that
9 pursuant to this report that you saw, there are
10 eight hard drives that appeared in Mr. Keane's
11 office that were delivered by, I believe,
12 Mr. McGowan.
13 MR. DANDAR: And these are the people that made
14 a deal with Scientology.
15 THE COURT: I don't know if they made a deal or
16 not. That is your assessment of it.
17 All I can tell you is that Mr. Keane will say
18 that some of these hard drives were destroyed, this
19 and that. And apparently they came from Mr. Minton
20 or Ms. Brooks or somebody that had removed these in
21 some fashion and who produced them.
22 Now, I don't know, either. But I do -- I did
23 notice that in this packet of stuff that there are
24 things from 1998, clearly under anybody's thoughts,
25 before LMT was ever incorporated, ever formed or
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1 anything of the sort. So I don't know what to do --
2 MR. DANDAR: Let me --
3 THE COURT: -- about this.
4 MR. DANDAR: Let me hand you what I don't think
5 you have been provided yet from yesterday. And this
6 is the one I talked about. This is the September 5,
7 2001 order from Judge Beach, because this is where
8 Mr. Moxon came to argue his motion that the LMT has
9 not complied with the orders of the Court.
10 And I want to -- first of all, I would like you
11 to read the whole thing, because it talks about
12 everything that was ordered to be preserved and
13 produced.
14 THE COURT: Okay.
15 MR. DANDAR: Now, this order restricted and
16 narrowed the scope that originated first with Judge
17 Moody, was broadened to anything, practically, with
18 Judge Quesada. And then Judge Beach narrowed it.
19 We had a hearing on this with Mr. Merrett. I
20 was there representing the estate. Mr. Moxon was
21 there representing the defendants. And there was
22 argument that Mr. Moxon wanted a broad category like
23 Judge Quesada had ordered.
24 Judge Beach said no. Paragraph 7: "The Court
25 clarifies the term 'witness' and limits the scope of
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1 discovery to persons who have any facts, directly or
2 indirectly, about how this case," meaning the
3 wrongful death case, "arose out of the incident
4 occurring with respect to Lisa McPherson. This
5 includes any witness that has any evidence of any
6 activity with other witnesses' gathering of
7 information from other witnesses or payments to
8 other witnesses."
9 Judge Moody started this discovery by saying
10 that they were only allowed to -- defense was only
11 allowed to get videos of people making statements
12 who were on my witness list concerning this case who
13 I was going to call, because the only reason anybody
14 would want a statement of a witness is to impeach
15 that witness.
16 And then Mr. Moxon -- or the defense added on
17 Bob Minton, Stacy Brooks. And I made an argument,
18 and I carried it to the extreme, pretty soon they're
19 going to be adding on my secretary, my wife, my
20 neighbors next door, and want to go get their bank
21 records, financial information, statements,
22 whatever.
23 Judge Beach narrowed that in Paragraph 7 to
24 witnesses of this case. In these documents -- and
25 there was no -- the procedure that I understood to
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1 exist is once the master had gathered the
2 information, he would provide it to the Court, and
3 the Court would determine what complied with the
4 order.
5 But what happened is Mr. Moxon shows up at the
6 master's office, without letting us know he's there,
7 and grabs this information as the master puts it
8 down on the table, thinking, I believe, this
9 complies with the order of the Court.
10 And I don't believe -- and I'll get corrected,
11 I'm sure -- that there is an order of the Court that
12 says Mr. Moxon can go to the master's office and sit
13 there and wait for an -- or an agent of the defense
14 and sit and wait for the documents to come in, and
15 grab them before the plaintiff has a chance --
16 THE COURT: Let's not use the word "grab"
17 because that would be offensive. I don't have any
18 evidence he grabbed them. I have evidence that he
19 was provided them and he took them --
20 MR. DANDAR: All right.
21 THE COURT: -- as provided by the special
22 master.
23 MR. DANDAR: Right. I don't believe there is
24 an order that says that can take place.
25 THE COURT: There is an order, and I don't know
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1 what it is or what it says, but there is an order
2 that set up the special master.
3 I'm sure what Judge Beach didn't want to do and
4 what I really don't want to do is to have to look at
5 all these hundreds and thousands of documents. That
6 is why a special master was put into place to begin
7 with so -- I don't know where it is. But I would
8 hope that Judge Beach, when he appointed the special
9 master -- because I believe it was him who appointed
10 the special master, because apparently when LMT
11 showed up for this deposition they didn't do what
12 they were supposed to do, is what I guess, and so a
13 special master was appointed to do certain things.
14 I don't know where that order is but there must
15 be one. And I can assume that Mr. Keane was trying
16 to comply with these orders in whatever it was he
17 did.
18 MR. DANDAR: I'm sure he was. But I don't
19 think the order contemplated an ex parte
20 communication and gathering of information.
21 THE COURT: Well, where is the order? Somebody
22 give me the order. Let me see what it says.
23 MR. DANDAR: I don't have that.
24 THE COURT: Well, that is what we need. We
25 need the order -- it would be an order setting up
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1 this special master and telling the special master
2 what they were to do.
3 MR. DANDAR: Well, while they're looking for
4 that, let me tell you what is wrong with this
5 production. Besides having a couple of my work
6 product letters between me and my expert, Vaughn
7 Young, and my consultant, Stacy Brooks, what is on
8 here are a bunch of E-Mail addresses, a bunch of
9 E-Mail addresses of people who are not witnesses in
10 this case.
11 And I believe -- and it is only upon my belief,
12 I don't have any hard facts yet -- these are people
13 who sought help from the Lisa McPherson Trust, which
14 the discovery orders of this Court forbade the
15 defendants to have that, the identity of those
16 people.
17 And that is what is the most flagrant problem
18 with this production.
19 THE COURT: Well, you know, the problem with
20 that is the person who needs to be making that
21 argument is the lawyer for LMT, the lawyer for Stacy
22 Brooks, the lawyer for Bob Minton, or the lawyer for
23 Mr. Bunker. That is one in the same. And he hasn't
24 made it.
25 MR. DANDAR: And I think it is telling that he
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1 hasn't made it.
2 THE COURT: Well, I don't know what it is, but
3 I'm telling you that -- yes, and I did -- based on
4 what Stacy Brooks testified to here in court, did
5 say that I was concerned because of her concern that
6 people who had come to the trust who were not
7 identified in this case in any way, that those
8 names, tapes, whatever, not be revealed.
9 And -- and have taken steps, I presume, in my
10 decisions on the tapes that would be released, to
11 see to it that that didn't occur, at least -- at
12 least, as best I could, using -- using Attachment A
13 as the basis, or -- or who were witnesses. Because
14 there were people on there that, quite frankly, I
15 didn't know. But that is all right, there are lots
16 of witnesses that I haven't touched that deal with
17 other things.
18 MR. WEINBERG: Mr. McGowan said he kept all
19 that stuff out. He said he made a special effort to
20 remove all that.
21 THE COURT: Mr. McGowan did say that. The
22 problem is with Mr. McGowan -- I don't know what
23 he's reviewing, but I gathered that he was saying
24 that Mr. Keane had produced --
25 MR. WEINBERG: Here is what he did. What he --
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1 I'm sorry, I'll stand up.
2 THE COURT: Do you know what he did, Counsel?
3 MR. WEINBERG: He said to us --
4 THE COURT: Do you know anything beyond what he
5 said to us?
6 MR. WEINBERG: No, I don't.
7 THE COURT: All right. Well, then --
8 MR. WEINBERG: What I understood him to say was
9 is that he had reviewed these documents and then he
10 turned them over to Mr. Keane.
11 THE COURT: That is what I remember is that he
12 said. But, see, what I don't know is, Mr. Keane,
13 what was given to him. But, yes, I believe he did
14 indicate -- you were there?
15 MR. DANDAR: I was there.
16 THE COURT: He made an effort. Matter of fact,
17 what he said he was going to do was turn those over
18 to the Court at some point in time because he made
19 an effort to protect what he perceived to be
20 nondiscoverable and --
21 MR. WEINBERG: Frankly, we weren't interested.
22 We made that clear. We're not interested in the
23 names of those people and --
24 THE COURT: Right. So he made an effort to
25 hold those out. And I believe he was going to say
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1 he was suggesting to us -- we should always have a
2 court reporter, I guess, but it is always so much
3 trouble when you want to seal something to have a
4 court reporter involved.
5 I guess what he said, he was going to turn
6 those over to the Court.
7 MR. DANDAR: Yes.
8 THE COURT: Let me go through them and see if
9 he had withheld anything that I thought was
10 discoverable based on the orders, various orders,
11 that were entered.
12 However, obviously, based on my reading of
13 these things that apparently were produced, nobody
14 seems to understand exactly what the Judge has
15 ordered. Because I, too, look in here and find
16 information that really is not the Church's business
17 or your business or anybody's business except LMT.
18 There are some things here that absolutely are
19 not part of LMT's computer. I have no idea what --
20 and as I said, neither does Mr. Keane. He has no
21 idea, he just says that a hard drive showed up
22 mysteriously, that he thought he accounted for
23 these, for the hard drives, and all of a sudden he
24 was getting hard drives.
25 But I can't have him -- because either
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1 Mr. Minton or Ms. Brooks or somebody else is
2 producing some hard drive, and Mr. Keane, basically,
3 he doesn't want to go through all these pages and
4 pages, believe you me. I didn't, either, as I was
5 reading through these. You know what I mean?
6 But, I mean, I can understand what Mr. Keane
7 did. He said, "Here, look at all this stuff," and
8 whatever he didn't protect, then as far as Mr. Keane
9 was concerned, "Here, you can have it." But there
10 is stuff going out that really the Church has no
11 business having, and you wouldn't, either, quite
12 frankly.
13 Now you have it, they have it, and I have it,
14 and I don't have any business having it either.
15 MR. DANDAR: So can we get it back into --
16 THE COURT: Well, I don't know what we can do.
17 We have this. I went through this. And, quite
18 frankly, there is one document that takes up the
19 bulk of this which is some deposition --
20 MR. DANDAR: It is Stacy Brooks' transcript
21 which takes up the bulk.
22 THE COURT: Right. And, frankly, that is a
23 matter of public record, so nobody cares.
24 MR. DANDAR: We don't care about that. Right.
25 THE COURT: There is a whole bunch of stuff in
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1 here you couldn't read; it is some sort of garbled
2 something.
3 MR. DANDAR: Right.
4 THE COURT: I am not going to protect somebody
5 that hasn't asked for protection. I can't -- I
6 can't let you ask to protect it except what you need
7 to protect for yourself. And I saw, too, a couple
8 things that I think are work product that I'm going
9 to order returned --
10 MR. DANDAR: There are people on E-Mail lists
11 from around the world that couldn't possibly afford
12 to come to this Court and object. I mean, their
13 E-Mail addresses are now known to the Church of
14 Scientology --
15 THE COURT: Why don't you make your argument to
16 the lawyer? I mean, I'm not here -- I am in my 26th
17 day of hearings on a motion, for goodness sakes, in
18 this case, that was scheduled to take four months to
19 try. I cannot protect the people of the world and
20 their E-Mails.
21 MR. DANDAR: But, Judge, since there is no
22 substance to these -- this production that we can
23 identify except my work product, could we have
24 defense turn over all copies of these productions to
25 the Court and give these people the opportunity to
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1 object? Maybe we can --
2 THE COURT: What do you think, I'm going to
3 write to them?
4 MR. DANDAR: No, but we can have someone write
5 to them. I mean, there are family members on here
6 of -- for instance, of Patricia Greenway; mother,
7 sisters, girlfriends, around the world. I mean,
8 their private E-Mail addresses. It invades their
9 privacy to produce these documents. They have
10 nothing to do with the case.
11 THE COURT: I don't know what to tell you.
12 There is a special master. Nobody yet has given me
13 the order. I need to see what the judge ordered the
14 special master to do. If the judge ordered the
15 special master to do what the special master has
16 done, then he has done what he has done. And if we
17 need to adjust the order, we can adjust the order.
18 Where is the order?
19 MR. MOXON: I don't have it in hand, but I can
20 get it faxed in or have it printed off.
21 THE COURT: Can you do that?
22 MR. MOXON: Sure.
23 THE COURT: We'll just have to address that
24 later.
25 MR. DANDAR: The other matter that we scheduled
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1 for production today is the --
2 THE COURT: I'm not done with these yet.
3 MR. DANDAR: Oh, I'm sorry.
4 THE COURT: You said now there is work product,
5 so let's hear that, that you do have a right to talk
6 about. Let's hear what they are.
7 MR. DANDAR: All right. Of course, one is the
8 E-Mail that they questioned Mr. Young about.
9 THE COURT: Yes, I looked at this -- this
10 document that was produced yesterday. It came from
11 this same packet, this thick packet.
12 MR. DANDAR: I would like to point out to the
13 Court it is a JPG file, J-P-G, which means someone
14 scanned in a copy of the E-Mail.
15 THE COURT: Well, you have to understand that
16 my knowledge of this is limited.
17 MR. DANDAR: So is mine. But I know that much.
18 THE COURT: But I do know enough to know this.
19 I do know this was written from you to
20 Writer@Eskimo.com, which has been identified by
21 Mr. Young, in April of 1998, before anyone
22 complained that LMT was in existence. This is a
23 work product document --
24 MR. WEINBERG: It is. But as we said
25 yesterday, when Mr. Young was tendered as a
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1 testifying expert witness in this case, which was in
2 the fall of 1999, when I took his deposition, then
3 when he gave his trial testimony in whatever it was,
4 January or February of 2000, you remember that whole
5 dialogue about we had -- we had subpoenaed or
6 requested to produce all of the communications
7 between Mr. Young and Mr. -- and Mr. Dandar, and
8 Mr. Dandar said he produced everything in the world.
9 He didn't take any work product, he didn't take
10 any -- he didn't maintain any objection to it.
11 There is no work product protection for
12 Mr. Young at this point.
13 THE COURT: Well, you know what? The problem
14 is I can't let you have something in the fashion
15 that you got it.
16 MR. WEINBERG: But it should have been --
17 THE COURT: Right now -- well, if he doesn't
18 keep his E-Mails --
19 MR. WEINBERG: He has it now.
20 THE COURT: That is right. But you don't get
21 to get it and use it the way you got it. That is
22 wrong. That is his work product.
23 MR. WEINBERG: I mean --
24 THE COURT: So you can't do that. What has to
25 happen now, Mr. Dandar, you have got a continuing
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1 obligation to produce whatever it is you were
2 ordered to produce, or you-all agreed to produce
3 between yourself and your experts. And if, in fact,
4 this exists, which obviously it does, I'm holding a
5 copy of it, then you need to produce it.
6 So if it is something you would need to
7 produce, let's just forget this one and just say
8 we'll just forget it.
9 MR. DANDAR: We can't forget it because, number
10 one, that document is an E-Mail from me. I keep no
11 copies of my E-Mails, so I couldn't produce that
12 even if I wanted to.
13 Mr. Young testified in April of '98 he was
14 divorced from his wife, he erased his hard drive,
15 which included all his E-Mails. How in the world
16 did that E-Mail get produced?
17 THE COURT: I have no idea.
18 MR. DANDAR: That is what is beyond our
19 comprehension. That is why it is wrong. I would
20 have made a privilege log and listed that on a
21 privilege log, because that has nothing to do with
22 his testimony as an expert.
23 MR. WEINBERG: Sure, it does. It has to do
24 with the amended complaint.
25 THE COURT: No, it doesn't. It has to do with
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1 the hearing. It has nothing to do with this case,
2 no.
3 MR. WEINBERG: No, it had to do with his
4 testimony at the time.
5 THE COURT: Yes, but it had nothing to do -- I
6 would not have required him to produce this, quite
7 frankly, if he would have done a privilege log. So
8 he doesn't agree to it.
9 So I'm ruling you had no business getting this
10 in the fashion that you got it. Therefore, I'm
11 striking the testimony for whatever it was in the
12 record for this hearing and ordering this returned.
13 MR. WEINBERG: And we will give -- we will
14 renew our request to -- to Mr. Dandar for the
15 documents that -- that we requested for his trial
16 testimony.
17 THE COURT: But you understand lawyers do
18 delete E-Mails? They do.
19 MR. WEINBERG: I understand that. But --
20 THE COURT: And other people delete E-Mails. I
21 do, too. And if somebody now comes along and
22 requests that I produce them, if they are deleted
23 I'm not going to produce them.
24 MR. WEINBERG: I understand. But remember the
25 first witness, the first letter Mr. Dandar ever sent
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1 to him didn't get produced to us, either, the May of
2 1997 letter, which he said he couldn't find in his
3 office. Lawyers don't delete letters.
4 THE COURT: That is true. But you know what, I
5 didn't delete that. And that is in this record.
6 MR. WEINBERG: I understand.
7 THE COURT: There is a difference. I have no
8 idea how you got this.
9 MR. WEINBERG: I know how we got it. We got it
10 from Mr. -- from Mr. Keane.
11 THE COURT: You don't understand. Please
12 don't --
13 MR. WEINBERG: I'm sorry.
14 THE COURT: Please, listen to me when I'm
15 talking.
16 MR. WEINBERG: I'm sorry.
17 THE COURT: I don't know how you got it because
18 I don't believe it is part of any LMT computer that
19 I'm aware of, unless, of course, they moved in some
20 of their own personal computers into LMT, which they
21 could have done, instead of buying new ones. And it
22 could have been on there. It could have been there
23 on a hard drive that they removed, and it could have
24 been produced in that fashion.
25 For right now, I don't know how you got it.
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1 I'm ruling it is work product. I'm ruling it is
2 inadmissible in this hearing, and I'm ordering you
3 to return all copies of it to Mr. Dandar.
4 If I were you, I would not destroy this and I
5 would do a privilege log. And I'll make a decision
6 that -- now you got it -- as to whether or not you
7 have got to turn it over.
8 MR. DANDAR: All right.
9 THE COURT: Quite frankly, you know, I might
10 require you to turn it over. I don't know what it
11 is. I don't even understand it yet, because it
12 seems to say here are two definitions of clear in
13 the complaint, and then what goes on to be discussed
14 under there is not a definition of clear.
15 MR. WEINBERG: Those are actually paragraphs in
16 one of the amended complaints, I think.
17 THE COURT: Oh.
18 MR. FUGATE: First amended complaint.
19 THE COURT: You do a privilege log, you tell me
20 what it is in your privilege log. I'll tell you
21 whether you have to turn it over.
22 MR. WEINBERG: For whatever it is worth, I
23 think I remember Mr. Young yesterday saying that
24 although he had erased his computer, he left it with
25 Ms. Young, so -- I mean, it is possible that
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1 particular hard drive ended up with LMT.
2 THE COURT: It is also possible there is some
3 shenanigans going on that I'm not attributing to you
4 or your client.
5 MR. WEINBERG: I understand.
6 THE COURT: But I do believe there is an
7 allegation in this case that Mr. Minton and
8 Ms. Young have every reason in the world to try to
9 please the Church of Scientology. That is an
10 allegation. There is also an allegation they have
11 been extorted. I haven't ruled on that yet so I
12 have to be somewhat careful when information is
13 being produced.
14 I don't know where this came from. It has
15 nothing to do with LMT. Therefore, I made my ruling
16 on that.
17 Now, in this packet of information there is
18 another document that I found --
19 MR. DANDAR: Page 64 is the work product
20 letter. Is that what you are referring to?
21 THE COURT: I don't know. Page 64? Yes, I see
22 there are pages here.
23 MR. DANDAR: Yes.
24 THE COURT: Yes. Page 64 I have turned down.
25 I have put a check mark by the first top of that
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1 that says, "The Court has granted my motion to
2 produce the PC folders. COS" -- I presume that is
3 Church of Scientology, I presume it is abbreviated
4 that way -- "says they already produced her ethics
5 and all other of her files."
6 Whatever -- anyway, is the Church correct, do
7 you have the other folders? This, again, is dated
8 1998, March. This is the letter -- I can't really
9 tell whether this went to Mr. Vaughn Young or Stacy
10 Young, but it appears whoever got it sent it to the
11 other saying, "Vaughn, do we have that?"
12 So I'm gathering you sent it to Stacy, she sent
13 it to Vaughn, and then he responds.
14 MR. DANDAR: Yes. That is correct.
15 THE COURT: That looks like a work product
16 information to me. I do not think that this would
17 be any direction to -- I mean, I can't imagine that
18 I would have ordered this, if this came to me on
19 privilege log, that I would order this turned over.
20 This is not -- this is -- when you get stuff between
21 the lawyer and their expert, it is not this kind of
22 stuff. So turn it back. Give it back. And all
23 copies.
24 MR. DANDAR: Judge --
25 THE COURT: That is the document on Page 64 of
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1 the -- of the thick packet.
2 MR. DANDAR: I also show it is a -- duplicated
3 on Page 67 at the top.
4 THE COURT: I have that turned down, yes,
5 "Duplicate on Page 67," so turn Page 67, at least
6 that part that deals with that, back.
7 MR. DANDAR: And the one they marked as an
8 exhibit, that is twice in this package.
9 THE COURT: Page 68 is one.
10 MR. DANDAR: Mmm --
11 THE COURT: And Page 69 is the other. Right?
12 MR. DANDAR: Yes.
13 THE COURT: Now, one thing that I didn't know
14 what it was, Counselor, and I don't know where it
15 is, but -- there was something else asking about an
16 affidavit of some other person. That I turned down,
17 but I can't find it.
18 MR. DANDAR: Yes. It is the request about -- I
19 think an affidavit of Ursula Caberta. I don't know
20 where that is.
21 THE COURT: Do you care? Because I marked it
22 but I can't seem to find it.
23 MR. DANDAR: I don't care because Ursula
24 Caberta -- I don't even know what it was about. I
25 had an affidavit. If they had the affidavit or what
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1 was going on -- but it's in here. And it's not -- I
2 would consider that work product.
3 THE COURT: So if you-all will please return
4 those pages.
5 Now, in the little packet, I did not turn down
6 anything that I thought was work product.
7 MR. DANDAR: I didn't see anything, either,
8 Judge.
9 THE COURT: Okay. The other thing that I am
10 not sure of, according to Mr. -- to Mr. Keane,
11 Mr. Moxon has gone through boxes and boxes and boxes
12 of documents. So this was just what he kind of
13 implied was, frankly, it was just kind of a mishmash
14 of stuff.
15 But that this -- that this coming off these new
16 computers that had just come in were the only things
17 that I think he thought were -- were maybe going to
18 be in any way relevant. I don't know what it is.
19 Mr. Moxon, how many documents did you take to
20 the Church out of whatever it is that you got from
21 Mr. Keane's office?
22 MR. MOXON: I would say there was probably
23 another 20, 30 pages.
24 THE COURT: Okay. He kind of implied there
25 were a lot of boxes and you went through them.
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1 MR. MOXON: There was. It was pretty useless
2 stuff.
3 THE COURT: He kind of implied it was useless
4 stuff. I want you to go through the 20 or 30 pages
5 and I want you, in an abundance of caution, to copy
6 them so I can make sure there is no more work
7 product in it.
8 MR. MOXON: Of course.
9 THE COURT: You don't have to return them
10 unless I tell you to. Just give me a copy of them.
11 MR. MOXON: Sure, and I'll give a copy to
12 Mr. Dandar. I assume Mr. Dandar will go over and do
13 the same thing.
14 THE COURT: Well, that is what Mr. Keane
15 assumes, too. In other words, it is here, come look
16 at it. And I'm not going to require him to make
17 copies of all that, send it to everybody, because I
18 don't think that is necessary. So, you know -- but
19 I did tell Mr. Keane yesterday and I will put this
20 as part of my tape order that any E-Mails that are
21 from Mr. Dandar or to Mr. Dandar should not be
22 released, they should be sent to me, I'll review
23 them.
24 MR. MOXON: I understand.
25 THE COURT: I do know what your allegations are
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1 in the counterclaim and there may be some that
2 clearly are not work product that have to do with
3 your counterclaim. You'll get those.
4 MR. MOXON: Okay.
5 THE COURT: Even though I think that when these
6 orders were done, they were done not necessarily
7 because of what is going on here, what have you.
8 But I need to review those so we don't have to get
9 into this. So I have ordered Mr. Keane to send me
10 anything from you or to you that he finds in
11 whatever it is he finds. He said he will do that.
12 MR. DANDAR: Okay.
13 THE COURT: So that will protect -- then of
14 course I'll make you all aware at some point what I
15 got, whether I'm turning them all over or what --
16 whether I'm keeping some. Whatever I keep I'll
17 seal, and if there is any problem. Okay?
18 MR. WEINBERG: My question is should we just
19 destroy or shred these work product things? Or do
20 you want us to give them to you?
21 THE COURT: I don't care.
22 MR. WEINBERG: Okay.
23 THE COURT: Do one or the other.
24 MR. WEINBERG: All right. I think Mr. Fugate
25 is in possession of them.
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1 THE COURT: Please do it.
2 MR. WEINBERG: I think he has all of the
3 copies.
4 THE COURT: What happens is that these things,
5 if they are not shredded or destroyed, five years
6 down the road, you'll be looking for some stuff, it
7 will come up, you'll forget about it, it will be put
8 in a document and somebody will bring it to my
9 attention. So get rid of them.
10 MR. FUGATE: I'm sorry, Judge, do you want me
11 to deliver them to the Court then?
12 THE COURT: I'm just going to throw them in the
13 wastebasket. Yes, give them to me, I'll throw them
14 in the wastebasket.
15 MR. FUGATE: Those were the ones that were
16 identified.
17 THE COURT: Okay. There. So I think -- and I
18 don't see anything, Mr. Dandar, that problematic in
19 here. As I said, I didn't understand whatever it
20 was that was put into evidence. It wasn't a big
21 deal, so I'm not going to concern myself with that,
22 or the other ones, just that they are work product.
23 MR. DANDAR: All right.
24 THE COURT: But as I said, this one you're
25 going to have to decide, based on -- based on some
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1 of these things that are now being provided, if you
2 get copies of them, whether or not you are required
3 to submit them, and if you don't think you are, you
4 better put them in a privilege log.
5 MR. DANDAR: I will.
6 MR. FUGATE: Judge, I believe, and I'll try to
7 pull the report, but I believe, so at least the
8 record is clear here, that in the report that I saw
9 there was an indication there were ten computers
10 located. Eight appeared to be new and the hard
11 drives were taken out, and two were old and the hard
12 drives were taken out. So I don't know -- when I
13 say old computers --
14 THE COURT: Well, apparently there is some
15 other hard drives, because what Mr. Keane said is he
16 thought he kind of accounted for -- and now he
17 thinks he has hard drives that he's not sure what
18 they go with. Mr. Keane will give us a final report
19 and what have you. I'm not too concerned. As I
20 said, I can't protect the world here. I suggest
21 that you call Mr. --
22 MR. FUGATE: McGowan.
23 THE COURT: -- Mr. McGowan if you don't think
24 he's being careful enough and if LMT or he might get
25 sued, you better tell him of your concern. Let him
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1 decide these things.
2 MR. FUGATE: I don't know how Mr. Keane would
3 have a clue who any of these people are.
4 THE COURT: He wouldn't. I'm not talking about
5 Mr. Keane. I'm talking about Mr. McGowan who is the
6 counsel for this LMT --
7 MR. FUGATE: I understand.
8 THE COURT: -- and Ms. Brooks -- in other
9 words, they're the ones that have --
10 MR. FUGATE: The privacy right.
11 THE COURT: -- the privacy right to protect.
12 And right now, Mr. Dandar, they don't appear to be
13 much in your favor. So what I would suggest is that
14 you call their lawyer and tell him that there is
15 some documents being produced that you think that
16 people might be concerned about. You can tell him
17 specifically about Ms. Greenway and anybody else
18 that you see in there.
19 MR. DANDAR: All right.
20 THE COURT: And if he wants to make a motion to
21 ask me to return them, that he -- I will, but I -- I
22 have got to sometime this morning, before we quit,
23 since I'll be kind of out of pocket a couple weeks,
24 I want to see what order was given to the special
25 master.
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1 MR. DANDAR: All right.
2 THE COURT: And if that needs to be adjusted, I
3 will. As I said, I can guarantee you I -- I will
4 not sit this morning and look through and read
5 through all these. I don't want to do that. That
6 is what a special master is for.
7 MR. DANDAR: I want to bring to your attention
8 that the Church of Scientology Flag Service
9 Organization, Inc. is petitioning the probate court
10 to have me produce a complete accounting of all of
11 the money that Mr. Minton gave me, which is contrary
12 to your order in this case. But it's in the probate
13 case. So they are trying to do another end run, as
14 I would call it, to get the information that you
15 forbade, as well as the Second District Court of
16 Appeal.
17 THE COURT: Well, I think you have to address
18 this with -- with the probate court. I'll read this
19 during the break. Okay?
20 MR. DANDAR: All right.
21 THE COURT: I can see, Mr. Dandar, this -- I
22 don't know about the probate situation. I'll look
23 at that. I hadn't thought of that. But I can
24 certainly see in the Texas judgment where you were
25 ordered personally to pay a certain amount of money,
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1 I don't remember what it was, $30,000, $60,000.
2 MR. DANDAR: Well, $98,000.
3 THE COURT: $98,000. That if that is brought
4 to this circuit, which I believe it has been --
5 MR. DANDAR: They're trying.
6 THE COURT: Well, if that happens and you don't
7 pay that judgment, that is going to be required to
8 be produced. There is nothing that I could or would
9 do to thwart someone from collecting a judgment. So
10 if I were you, I would pay the judgment.
11 MR. DANDAR: Well, Judge --
12 THE COURT: As I said, if you don't pay the
13 judgment, I am not going to interfere in any way
14 with somebody, who has a judgment from a court,
15 collecting it.
16 And, therefore, I know what they're going to
17 ask, and they are going to do a deposition in aid of
18 execution. That is what I would do if I were a
19 lawyer, and I would be, quite frankly, annoyed if
20 some other judge doing another case said, "Well,
21 look, some Second District said you can't have
22 this." Well, they have got a judgment. So pay the
23 judgment or suffer the consequences.
24 MR. DANDAR: It is on appeal and there is a
25 federal statute that forbids any execution outside
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1 of the jurisdiction of the court that entered it.
2 Any --
3 THE COURT: I don't need to go there.
4 MR. DANDAR: I just want you to go there.
5 THE COURT: I'll tell you that if you have got
6 a judgment, it becomes a final judgment, and you
7 don't pay the final judgment, don't look to me to
8 go -- I mean, you can take the Second District
9 cases, but they're going to laugh at you because
10 that would have nothing, no bearing, and the Second
11 District would tell you that.
12 MR. DANDAR: Okay.
13 THE COURT: They don't mean for somebody not to
14 be able to collect a judgment because of some order
15 entered in this case. I will read this probate -- I
16 had not even thought of that. I know nothing about
17 probate, but I'll look at it.
18 MR. FUGATE: Well, Judge, so there is no
19 mystery here, either, by the way -- and I don't
20 recall the date off the top of my head -- but
21 Mr. Pope, I believe, indicated to your Honor in
22 Mr. Dandar's presence at a hearing, I believe it was
23 a motion -- I don't recall what it was -- that we
24 would like to go back in probate because of these
25 judgments to protect the Church's position.
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1 And we wanted to notify you of that, and you
2 indicated that is probate, you can do whatever you
3 want to do. And it -- Mr. Dandar was here, we were
4 here and Mr. Pope, and I believe Mr. Rosen actually
5 came and said we want to go back in there but we
6 don't want to do it if in some way that is going to
7 be causing a problem in this case, but we do need to
8 protect the client's interests.
9 And I remember sitting right here when that
10 happened, oh, so many weeks and weeks ago, but --
11 but that was brought up and Mr. Dandar was apprised.
12 And I believe that is asking for an in camera
13 production to the Court, not to --
14 THE COURT: Well, let me read it.
15 MR. FUGATE: Not to the --
16 THE COURT: If you will notice, my order was
17 drawn in a fashion that did not direct any other
18 judge any place. It was my order dealing with this
19 case.
20 MR. FUGATE: Well, please read it, because let
21 me tell you, I haven't.
22 THE COURT: Mr. Dandar can produce that order
23 to any other judge if he wanted to, and if any other
24 judge wanted to give it any other credence, they
25 could. Frankly, Judge Baird didn't care a thing
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1 about the Second District orders that were
2 written -- Second District opinions that were
3 written in my case. It is very clear, very clear
4 from the hearing, very clear based on what he said.
5 Well, then the Second District did an opinion in his
6 case and I'm sure now he does care about it. I'm
7 sure Judge Baird may not care a thing about the
8 order that I wrote. Nor should he. I might not
9 care about an order he wrote. I mean, you know, we
10 all have to deal with our own --
11 MR. FUGATE: Court.
12 THE COURT: -- court and our own cases. But I
13 will read this to see if it causes me anything that
14 I want to comment on.
15 MR. DANDAR: Okay.
16 MR. FUGATE: Thank you, your Honor.
17 MR. DANDAR: The last thing before we call
18 Mr. Haney, we requested the defense to produce the
19 settlement documents with Vicki Aznaran since they
20 went ahead and introduced her three affidavits
21 recanting her prior affidavits and attacking the
22 lawyer, Graham Berry, for suborning perjury and
23 other misconduct, I believe. Since they used those
24 three recantation affidavits, we requested this
25 morning that they produce those settlement documents
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1 and I have not heard a response yet.
2 THE COURT: All right. Do you have your notice
3 to produce?
4 MR. DANDAR: Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes.
5 THE COURT: I wonder, as I hear this I'm
6 wondering, what am I doing here? Why am I even
7 receiving Vicki Aznaran's recantation affidavit, and
8 affidavits, and -- but apparently I have, so 25 days
9 is a long time.
10 MR. WEINBERG: I mean, Mr. Dandar is the one
11 that filed the affidavits originally. And now you
12 want a private settlement agreement?
13 THE COURT: Let me read this. Well, it's a
14 little bit like putting somebody on your witness
15 list and getting a copy of their tape --
16 MR. WEINBERG: But it is like any settlement
17 agreement.
18 THE COURT: But as I said, had I been in charge
19 of this case from the beginning, you wouldn't be
20 adding to -- to your witness list and getting their
21 tape. I have enforced the judge's orders because it
22 was another judge's order, but let me see what this
23 says.
24 Okay, this is kind of straightforward. You
25 haven't produced it, obviously.
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1 MR. WEINBERG: No, we haven't.
2 THE COURT: Tell me why it is you believe you
3 think you get it. When I tell you I don't remember
4 why we're dealing with Vicki Aznaran, you're going
5 to have to remind me.
6 MR. DANDAR: All right, Vicki Aznaran was the
7 senior of Jesse Prince.
8 THE COURT: I know that and I know she left the
9 Church of Scientology. I know she wrote some
10 affidavits. I know then she wrote three affidavits
11 where she said that she had entered a global
12 settlement or whatever, and she lied, and that those
13 affidavits weren't valid. And she's the one that
14 said one of the lawyers had -- had added ten pages
15 to one of her declarations, which wasn't even her
16 declaration, we just added these ten pages. So I
17 remember all that. I don't know why I even have it.
18 MR. DANDAR: Well, because it's more evidence
19 of a pattern of conduct with the Church of
20 Scientology.
21 THE COURT: So you introduced it?
22 MR. DANDAR: I don't think I did. I introduced
23 her true affidavit, I'll call it, before she made
24 her global settlement which is attached to that
25 packet of additional authorities to add parties.
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1 I'll be corrected if I'm wrong.
2 MR. WEINBERG: Well, you are wrong because
3 remember, all we did was substitute the executed
4 copies. You introduced a thing of posting that had
5 all of the affidavits in it, right? That is what
6 you did --
7 THE COURT: It --
8 MR. WEINBERG: No. It was Vicki Aznaran. All
9 he -- we did, he introduced nine postings, which I
10 think we objected to at the time. We produced
11 signed copies of the affidavits the other day that
12 was in this posting that -- that he produced.
13 THE COURT: Okay. I don't know why you would
14 be entitled to a copy of her settlement agreement.
15 MR. DANDAR: Because it would show that she was
16 required to sign these affidavits, recant her prior
17 sworn testimony, and go after the attorney. The
18 same thing that Minton and Brooks had been required
19 to do. The same thing they tried to get Vaughn
20 Young and Stacy Young to do back in 1994.
21 THE COURT: You think it would?
22 MR. DANDAR: I think it would. It would show
23 this pattern, this is how we --
24 THE COURT: You think that would be in the
25 settlement agreement?
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1 MR. DANDAR: It would be in the settlement
2 agreement, yes, I do believe it would be there.
3 Remember, they talked public and secret settlement
4 agreement.
5 THE COURT: Well, I will beg to differ with
6 you. I don't think you ought to see the settlement
7 agreement. However, I do think you will see in the
8 settlement agreement she's to make no more
9 affidavits or declarations in cases against the
10 Church. But I don't think you'll see she has to
11 submit false affidavits and she has to --
12 MR. DANDAR: Set the record straight, I'm sure
13 it will say that. Because it says it in
14 Mr. Rinder's 1994 --
15 THE COURT: It does. But there is nothing
16 wrong with setting the record straight.
17 MR. DANDAR: Unless that is a lie.
18 THE COURT: Well, I'll hear from you. I think
19 what he's suggesting is that if I were to see the
20 settlement agreement, that I would see that the
21 settlement is a requirement to get the lawyer and to
22 submit false affidavits.
23 MR. WEINBERG: That is what he thinks. I mean,
24 that is sort of like a lot of his arguments, you
25 know --
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1 THE COURT: Well --
2 MR. WEINBERG: -- in this case. First of all,
3 just so the record is straight, this is the document
4 that he introduced which was the Bob Minton posting
5 with all of the affidavits on it.
6 THE COURT: Oh, right. And that had the three
7 affidavits?
8 MR. WEINBERG: Yes, and all we did was put
9 the -- put them in executed form.
10 THE COURT: Well, then you can't -- I don't
11 believe you can put the affidavits in and then say
12 you are entitled to the settlement agreement. You
13 know, truthfully, if I thought that any settlement
14 agreement was in writing that Ms. Aznaran had a copy
15 of had any such thing that you thought it had in it,
16 I probably would order it produced just for the
17 purpose of this hearing, even maybe under seal. I
18 don't think it has anything like you are suggesting
19 in it.
20 MR. DANDAR: Well, shouldn't you at least take
21 a look at it? Under seal?
22 THE COURT: Would you object to my looking at
23 it in camera? It is up to you. I mean --
24 MR. WEINBERG: Well, just so -- I mean, I feel
25 at somewhat of a loss because this is not a
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1 settlement agreement with the Church of Scientology
2 Flag. It's a settlement agreement with some other
3 church organization which I assume, although I don't
4 even know is CSI, they have their own lawyers.
5 Ms. Aznaran also was the other side of the
6 settlement agreement, and I assume like all
7 settlement agreements it probably has some sort of
8 confidentiality provision in it.
9 THE COURT: I'm sure it does. Let's do this,
10 let's make this simple. I'm going to suggest that I
11 have no idea, of course, whether this settlement
12 agreement has any relevance or bearing on this
13 hearing. I will ask, and that is just ask, that it
14 be produced in camera for me to determine. However,
15 if I determine it does have some relevance, then
16 there is the possibility it would be turned over.
17 If I determine it did not have any relevance, I
18 would turn it back.
19 I will give you an opportunity to object to
20 that.
21 MR. WEINBERG: Okay.
22 THE COURT: I'm just asking at this point
23 because that is the simplest way --
24 MR. WEINBERG: I just want to make the record
25 clear. I have never seen this settlement agreement.
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1 THE COURT: And she may object, and if she may
2 have a lawyer that wants to object and you can
3 advise me of that, and I'll decide if it is worth my
4 thinking about an order. But at this point I don't
5 know whether you want to do it or not. If you do --
6 MR. WEINBERG: I'll find out.
7 THE COURT: But you run the risk, if you allow
8 me to look at it in camera and I say, yes, look
9 here, the Church told her to lie under oath, that is
10 relevant.
11 MR. WEINBERG: I suspect there is not a
12 provision that says she has to lie under oath or get
13 her lawyer disbarred. I suspect there is not a
14 provision like that.
15 MR. DANDAR: We have no other matters. We're
16 ready to call our witness.
17 MR. MOXON: Your Honor, I have the two orders
18 you just requested from Judge Beach.
19 THE COURT: Oh, good.
20 MR. MOXON: I'll just hand it up.
21 THE COURT: What I'll do, this is dealing with
22 the special master?
23 MR. MOXON: That is correct. Your Honor, I
24 know Judge Beach indicated he was going to talk to
25 Mr. Keane and of course we weren't privy to those
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1 conversations --
2 THE COURT: Right.
3 MR. MOXON: So he probably briefed him and told
4 him more about it.
5 THE COURT: I did, too. I talked to Mr. Keane,
6 for example, about the tapes when I met with him.
7 MR. MOXON: Sure.
8 THE COURT: So, you know, there may have been
9 more, but I'll read this at the break, too. Matter
10 of fact, it is ten until ten. We haven't done
11 anything. But I would like to clear up all this
12 legal stuff, so let's just -- I mean, I know nobody
13 wants to take a break, including me, but I'm going
14 to take this -- you take that -- what is that?
15 MR. WEINBERG: What is -- oh, that is what
16 Mr. Dandar gave you?
17 THE COURT: This. The probate order. Where is
18 the probate order? Here it is. I'm going to take
19 the probate order and these two matters. We're
20 going to get all this legal stuff on the record at
21 the same time, so I'm going to take a break, come
22 back and deal with this.
23 And, by the way, I did strike that Number 211,
24 didn't I?
25 MR. FUGATE: If you didn't, you said you were.
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1 MR. WEINBERG: You did.
2 THE COURT: Madam Clerk, I'm striking
3 Defendant's Exhibit 211. I never really quite
4 understood what that did, you strike it, it is still
5 part of the record. But in any event, it is
6 stricken.
7 I don't know how long it will take me. I guess
8 not more than ten minutes, but I want to read it,
9 see if --
10 MR. DANDAR: Ten minutes?
11 THE COURT: Yes, ten minutes.
12 (WHEREUPON, a recess is taken from 1:45 to 2:00 p.m.)
13 THE COURT: Okay. I have had a chance to read
14 the two orders that were given to me. One is the
15 order of Judge Beach on October 17 indicating that
16 the master would be appointed. Then there is an
17 order appointing special master.
18 And the order appointing special master just
19 basically says he's to determine what, if any,
20 material has not been produced in accordance with
21 prior discovery orders of the Court, allows him to
22 retain another person, and talks about his fees. So
23 it is obviously not clear.
24 I don't know what we're going to do here, as I
25 said. I suspect what Mr. Keane presumes, if it is
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1 given to him, that anybody can come look at it.
2 That is not correct. And I assume that is what he
3 must have thought.
4 He should be turning over, obviously, anything
5 that is consistent with the order. And I don't even
6 know if he has -- I don't know what to do because I
7 do not want to get boxes of documents to go through.
8 I'm sure Mr. Keane, a fairly prominent lawyer in
9 town, has other things to do than go through LMT's
10 documents.
11 What I think we ought to do is the orders were
12 directed to LMT, and -- and Ms. Brooks,
13 specifically, as the -- I don't know what she was,
14 president?
15 MR. WEINBERG: Right.
16 THE COURT: I believe the orders were
17 ultimately directed to her, or to LMT, through her.
18 So I think what we need to do is require Ms. Brooks
19 to comply with the orders of the Court. And, in
20 doing that, I assume this was on an order of the
21 Court to produce that she would have produced copies
22 to each side.
23 MR. WEINBERG: Right.
24 THE COURT: So I think, rather than putting
25 this burden on Mr. Keane, at quite an expense to the
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1 lawyers -- I mean, frankly, I think if I read the
2 one correctly, the Church is paying the cost of
3 Mr. Keane and the second person.
4 MR. MOXON: That's right.
5 THE COURT: And I imagine Mr. Keane is a fairly
6 expensive lawyer. What is he charging?
7 MR. MOXON: It has been quite a burden. I
8 think it is about $250 an hour.
9 THE COURT: It is probably less than what he
10 gets paid doing lawyer work.
11 MR. MOXON: The reason he was appointed, we
12 couldn't get compliance with the order. Judge Beach
13 said, "I'll have to bypass and appoint somebody."
14 THE COURT: I'll ask -- mostly because of the
15 time constraints here, I'm going to ask the Church,
16 if you will, since there are more of you, to produce
17 an order for me to sign directing that now that
18 Mr. Keane is in possession of these documents. It
19 ought to read something like this, that certainly
20 counsel should go through these documents and
21 counsel should determine what documents that he
22 feels are to be produced pursuant to the order but
23 that are otherwise privileged in some fashion, and
24 he should create a privilege log and turn those over
25 to the Court.
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1 Any other documents that he feels should be
2 produced pursuant to the order should be produced,
3 with a copy to each side.
4 MR. DANDAR: So counsel should be -- are you
5 talking about LMT's counsel?
6 THE COURT: Yes.
7 MR. DANDAR: I just would ask that counsel for
8 the plaintiffs, since I'm apparently the only one
9 that could have work product snuck on these hard
10 drives somehow, that I be allowed to look at it --
11 these documents first to see if there is --
12 THE COURT: I'll tell you what I will do. I
13 will state that any document that counsel for LMT
14 believes should be produced pursuant to the order,
15 that is either to or from Kennan Dandar, not be
16 released until it be released to the Court.
17 In other words, I don't want under a privilege
18 log or anything of the sort, but I just want it
19 produced to me first, I'll decide then on those
20 documents.
21 But anything else, he ought to bear the cost,
22 "he" meaning LMT, and really neither the Church nor
23 Mr. Dandar should bear the cost.
24 MR. MOXON: That would be great. It has been
25 quite a financial burden.
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1 THE COURT: Yes. And I'm sure this will please
2 Mr. Keane. He just now is a protector of these.
3 But there have been court orders issued, and I think
4 that if the latest order is the order of Judge Beach
5 which you have produced to me, that if you-all could
6 agree on who those people are, if you could help --
7 I mean, I'm sure that Mr. McGowan is somewhat in the
8 dark, too, as to who these witnesses are. If you
9 could agree on a list and -- and get together and
10 give that list to Mr. McGowan, then either
11 Ms. Brooks can wade through these things herself or
12 she can pay her lawyer to do it.
13 MR. DANDAR: Judge, are you going to go by
14 Paragraph 7 of Judge Beach's order which defines --
15 THE COURT: If that is the latest order.
16 MR. DANDAR: All right.
17 MR. MOXON: I'll prepare a proposed order for
18 you.
19 THE COURT: But coordinate with Mr. Dandar.
20 MR. MOXON: I'll do that.
21 THE COURT: See if you can agree to an Exhibit
22 A. I mean, the list is expanded somewhat because of
23 the fact that we do have a counterclaim here. And
24 the counterclaim is part of -- you know, we just
25 can't ignore it. We're going to have to deal with
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1 it again. I don't want these people to go through
2 this two times.
3 So, I mean, really, it ought to be witnesses in
4 connection with the counterclaim, which as I have
5 indicated, I believe, Mr. Dandar, which would
6 include you. But because of the fact that there
7 could be privileged information and work product,
8 that really doesn't pertain to the counterclaim.
9 Those documents, all of them, can be given to
10 me, and I'll go through those.
11 MR. MOXON: Completely understood, your Honor.
12 THE COURT: And the rest of them should be
13 produced, really, is how it normally is done. They
14 don't get filed with the Court.
15 MR. MOXON: Right.
16 THE COURT: Each side gets a copy.
17 MR. MOXON: I agree.
18 THE COURT: So I'll put the burden on
19 Mr. McGowan. I don't think he has any ax to grind
20 here. And so -- he's a lawyer, a fine lawyer. And
21 he can just -- you know, have his client do it, or
22 he can do it. But I do have the right for him to do
23 a privilege log if he feels there is something that
24 should be produced but he thinks it is otherwise
25 privileged. If he doesn't think it should be
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1 produced, well, he doesn't have to give it to me,
2 just retain it, do whatever he wants to do, give it
3 back to Ms. Brooks.
4 MR. MOXON: We have a transcript here so --
5 THE COURT: I don't know if I have been clear.
6 Have I been clear enough?
7 MR. MOXON: It has been very clear.
8 THE COURT: So let's make sure that the special
9 master is given a copy of this order so he realizes
10 that he doesn't have to go through this, he can just
11 turn it all back over to Ms. Brooks.
12 MR. MOXON: All right.
13 THE COURT: Okay?
14 MR. DANDAR: All right.
15 THE COURT: Okay. Now, that takes care of
16 that.
17 Now, I did read this request by Mr. Pope.
18 Where is that? Oh, yes. I find this kind of
19 interesting because I can't imagine how, under any
20 theory -- under any theory at all that has been
21 proposed to me that in any way, shape or form the
22 estate would have any obligation to use these funds
23 to pay any judgment to the Church of Scientology.
24 Whether this is a loan to Mr. Dandar, to use as
25 he sees fit, whether this is a loan/donation to
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1 Mr. Dandar to be used for the benefit of
2 expenditures to be repaid in the event of successful
3 lawsuit, otherwise to be considered a donation and
4 he doesn't get repaid, in other words, it is all
5 eaten up and there is nothing left and he doesn't
6 get -- the estate does not prevail and, therefore,
7 there is no money to pay him back, or if it is
8 strictly a loan/donation to the estate, the estate's
9 obligation would be just what Mr. Dandar's
10 obligation would be, which is to use the money for
11 the expenditures of the estate, to return the
12 balance, if any, to Mr. Minton, and in the event of
13 a successful conclusion by the estate, to return the
14 balance of his money. In the event of a
15 nonsuccessful hearing by the Court, he doesn't get
16 his money back under any scenario imaginable to me.
17 I cannot imagine how the Church of Scientology
18 would have any claim, ever, to this money, to
19 satisfy a judgment or otherwise. So why this has
20 been filed is beyond me, except that it appears to
21 me, quite frankly, that it's another attempt, even
22 though it is to be filed under seal, to somehow or
23 another to cause Mr. Dandar to reveal, discuss, how
24 he spent this money. And for what purpose?
25 However, this is not my case, Mr. Dandar. This
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1 is Judge Greer's case. I guess Judge Greer has
2 this. And Judge Greer will have to decide this.
3 But I think Judge Greer should know that two other
4 judges have under consideration some determination
5 as to whether or not these were loans to Mr. Dandar
6 or whether they were loans to the estate. And both
7 of those judges -- both of them -- have been told by
8 the Second District, me through orders entered by
9 Judge Beach, and Judge Greer -- I'm sorry, Judge
10 Baird -- through an order entered by Judge Baird
11 that this information is not relevant for this case
12 and is not relevant for the case that Mr. Pope is
13 involved in.
14 And, consequently, how Mr. Pope can now go to
15 Judge Greer and suggest that he should treat it
16 otherwise is, frankly, beyond me. I think this is
17 another effort by someone to backdoor what it can't
18 get from me and can't get from Judge Baird because
19 of orders of the Second District. Not by the
20 lawyers in my courtroom. Therefore, it is not for
21 me to speak to them.
22 And I do recognize the fact the Church of
23 Scientology is a large organization with
24 different -- but both of these are the Church of
25 Scientology Flag Service Organization, Inc. That is
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1 the defendant in my suit. It is the plaintiff in
2 Judge Baird's suit. And, therefore, it is the
3 plaintiff that Mr. Pope is representing in his
4 efforts to get this information.
5 He is not my lawyer and he's not in my case.
6 So, therefore, I cannot fuss at him, which I
7 absolutely would do if he were in my presence. I do
8 not think he should do this. I think, in light of
9 the Second District's order, in light of the fact
10 this very issue is pending, believe me, on the 26th
11 day of a hearing, and that is one of the issues, it
12 is pending before Judge Baird on an issue that he's
13 taken three days and is to be renewed for probably
14 another 15 or 20 days, that the idea that they would
15 now go to a third judge and try to do -- I don't
16 know if he's doing it on his own or if he's doing it
17 at the direction of the Church.
18 If he is, I have entered an order telling the
19 Church in this case with the defendant what I think
20 of that effort. So -- I think this is
21 inappropriate.
22 But, Mr. Pope isn't here. Therefore, I don't
23 know whether -- I'm not going to ask the Church to
24 tell me in another case whether they directed this
25 or not. So I wish it hadn't been done.
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1 I think you should tell Judge Greer,
2 Mr. Dandar, that there are two judges that have
3 spent a great deal of time trying to decide whether
4 this money is the estate's money or whether it is a
5 loan to Mr. Dandar.
6 A lot of the information discussed in here is
7 not for this Court, it is for the Bar. My order
8 will be perfectly clear on what I think it was. And
9 Judge Baird's, I'm sure, will be the same. To try
10 to get another judge to require a lawyer to make an
11 accounting, when this issue is pending, is anything
12 but clear to me. And I'm sure it is anything but
13 clear to Judge Baird.
14 I think it is a misuse of Judge Greer. But
15 Judge Greer will have to decide that for himself.
16 Please take all three orders from the Second
17 District. Please take my order. And as far as I'm
18 concerned, you may take a copy of this transcript to
19 Judge Greer. The decision is his. I don't like it.
20 And -- but that is neither -- it is just simply not
21 my business.
22 But I am taking note. Every time -- and every
23 time this is done -- and I have ordered that the
24 Church not do this -- I'm taking note of the fact
25 this is the same church that is present in my
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1 courtroom. And I can't help it. It is just kind of
2 like -- they're just going to keep at it.
3 But as far as I'm concerned, it simply shows
4 the Second District is correct, that they were
5 correct in what was going on, and I entered an order
6 stating if it doesn't stop, that I'm going to find,
7 as a matter of fact, it is correct.
8 And, frankly, I think that would be a contempt
9 of the Second District. And if I think it is
10 contemptuous of my order, I will so find. It is
11 just in another court right now.
12 I don't like it. I wish you men would stop --
13 I'm not saying you men; I'm talking Mr. Shaw, your
14 church. I wish you would stop. There is no way in
15 the world the Church will get their hands on this
16 money. Not one way in the world. I don't care what
17 I find, I don't care what I decide, the Church will
18 never be able to get to this money. This money
19 either belongs to the estate or Mr. Minton. It
20 never belongs to the Church under any theory at all.
21 Therefore, as I said, if I haven't made it
22 clear, I'm going to make it clear. This is another
23 attempt to find out how much money Mr. Dandar has
24 left to litigate this case. That is improper. The
25 Second District said it's improper. I said it's
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1 improper. And apparently you continue and will
2 continue. And I don't like it.
3 Now, I made myself clear. Call your next
4 witness.
5 MR. DANDAR: The plaintiff calls Brian Haney.
6 THE BAILIFF: If you'll stand right here, face
7 the clerk, raise your right hand to receive the
8 oath.
9 (Oath administered to the witness by the
10 Court.)
11 THE WITNESS: Yes, I do.
12 THE COURT: You may lower your hand.
13 MR. DANDAR: Present is Mr. Haney's lawyer,
14 Dick Rogovin.
15 THE COURT: The bailiff said you want to sit
16 over there?
17 MR. ROGOVIN: May I?
18 THE COURT: Yes.
19 What is your name, sir?
20 MR. ROGOVIN: Richard Rogovin.
21 THE COURT: Do you have a card? Just in
22 case --
23 MR. ROGOVIN: If you are ever in Ohio --
24 THE COURT: -- if I need a lawyer in Ohio, I'll
25 know who to call. Thank you, sir, for being here.
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1 You may proceed.
2 ______________________________________
3 HUGH BRIAN HANEY,
4 the witness herein, being first duly sworn, was examined
5 and testified as follows:
6 DIRECT EXAMINATION
7 BY MR. DANDAR:
8 Q Please state your name.
9 A Hugh Brian Haney.
10 Q Spell your last name.
11 A H-A-N-E-Y.
12 Q You are a resident of the state of Ohio?
13 A Yes.
14 Q How long have you lived in Ohio?
15 A Since 1979.
16 Q Were you ever a member of the Church of
17 Scientology?
18 A Yes, I was.
19 Q And a public? Or staff? Or Sea Org?
20 A I was a public member, then a staff member.
21 Q When did you first become --
22 THE COURT: Does that mean a Sea Org member?
23 THE WITNESS: No, I was a staff member at a
24 Class Five organization, which is in between being
25 public and a Sea Org member, your Honor.
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1 THE COURT: Thank you.
2 BY MR. DANDAR:
3 Q When did you first become a public member?
4 A In July of 1991.
5 Q You became a staff non-Sea Org member of which
6 organization?
7 A It was the Class Five org in Columbus, Ohio.
8 Q What was your post or position there?
9 A It's -- the acronym is D/ED. It's deputy
10 executive director. It's the second in command to the
11 person who runs the organization. So I'm like a
12 vice-president, you would say.
13 Q You sound like you have a frog --
14 A Yes, I'm trying to -- excuse me.
15 THE COURT: Do you have water there? That is
16 good water, too. Well, sort of. It came out of the
17 water fountain.
18 THE WITNESS: Okay.
19 BY MR. DANDAR:
20 Q And what is the extent of your formal education?
21 A I completed high school in 1978. And that is it.
22 Q And when you joined the Church of Scientology,
23 were you self-employed?
24 A Yes. I had my own company. It was called Great
25 American Fun, where I manufactured and was a distributor of
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1 toys. It was a nationwide company. We sold in about 33
2 countries around the world.
3 Q Do you have offices in Hong Kong?
4 A Yes.
5 Q Is that where the toys are made?
6 A The toys were made all over southeast Asia. But
7 as time passed, they eventually all became made in China as
8 the migration of cheap labor moved around southeast Asia.
9 Q Okay. Now, when did you cease being a member of
10 the Church of Scientology?
11 A In February of 1994.
12 Q While you were in Scientology, public or staff
13 member, the writings of Mr. Hubbard, was that called the
14 tech?
15 A Yes.
16 Q And was the tech ever referred to, in your
17 presence or within your knowledge, as scripture?
18 A No.
19 Q Did you ever have -- did you ever hear --
20 THE COURT: I'm sorry, my head was rattling
21 somewhere else other than right here where it needs
22 to be.
23 Would you tell me again what -- did you ask him
24 what his position was?
25 MR. DANDAR: Yes. He was deputy executive
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1 director of the Columbus, Ohio org, which is a Class
2 Five org. So he was not Sea Org. He was --
3 THE COURT: Deputy executive director of the
4 Ohio --
5 THE WITNESS: Yes, the Columbus, Ohio org.
6 There is approximately 26 Class Five orgs in the
7 United States. Then there are two advanced
8 organizations, Flag and the one in Los Angeles.
9 THE COURT: All right, thank you. That is the
10 one -- those are the ones I have been used to
11 dealing with. This is just a church in a state?
12 MR. DANDAR: Yes, in a city.
13 THE COURT: In the city?
14 THE WITNESS: Yes.
15 THE COURT: And you indicated deputy executive
16 director as far as in that org?
17 THE WITNESS: Yes, your Honor.
18 THE COURT: Is it like vice-president, second
19 from the top?
20 THE WITNESS: Uh-huh.
21 THE COURT: All right. Thank you.
22 BY MR. DANDAR:
23 Q Try not to go "uh-huh" or "um-hum."
24 A Right.
25 Q In your experience within Scientology, did you
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1 ever hear anyone called an ecclesiastical leader?
2 A No.
3 Q In your experience with Scientology, who was the
4 overall worldwide person in charge of all of Scientology?
5 A David Miscavige.
6 Q And what particular position does he have that --
7 where he derives that power from or that authority?
8 A He was the head of the Sea Org.
9 Q Are you sure --
10 MR. WEINBERG: Your Honor, just for the record,
11 I want to -- particularly with this witness, my
12 objection is Rule 406, First Amendment. He's now
13 being asked questions about Mr. Miscavige derived
14 from his -- he was in the organization for two and a
15 half years.
16 THE COURT: I think that is correct. And --
17 MR. DANDAR: Well --
18 THE COURT: All those objections are preserved,
19 as they have been.
20 But don't get too far afield here because this
21 man does have somewhat limited knowledge. And we've
22 heard from other folks who really are giving us much
23 the same information, so -- so we don't -- just go
24 to whatever it is --
25 MR. DANDAR: I will.
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1 THE COURT: -- he has you think is relevant to
2 this hearing, not repetitious.
3 MR. DANDAR: Okay.
4 BY MR. DANDAR:
5 Q Are you an anti-Scientologist?
6 A No.
7 Q How would you classify yourself in reference to
8 Scientology?
9 A I have been a critic of Scientology for some time.
10 Probably five years.
11 Q Have you picketed?
12 A No.
13 Q There was -- do you know Stacy Brooks?
14 A Yes.
15 Q How did you know Stacy Brooks?
16 A I communicated with her by E-Mail, then I met her
17 for the first time in May of 1998.
18 Q Where at?
19 A In person the first time I met her was in Denver,
20 Colorado. The organization FACTNet had a board meeting to
21 discuss their operation. And I went out there for that.
22 Q Did you become a member of FACTNet?
23 A No.
24 Q You just went out for a meeting?
25 A Yes. I went to meet other people who were
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1 involved in criticizing Scientology and trying to help the
2 people who had been victimized by it.
3 Q And did you meet Bob Minton?
4 A Yes.
5 Q When and where?
6 A At the same place.
7 THE COURT: And what year was this, sir?
8 THE WITNESS: In May of 1998, your Honor.
9 THE COURT: Thank you.
10 BY MR. DANDAR:
11 Q And when is the first time you met me?
12 A December 1999.
13 Q Where at?
14 A The first day of Gerry Armstrong's deposition.
15 Q And at that period of time, you were assisting me
16 as a consultant on Scientology, correct?
17 A That is correct.
18 Q And in December of '99 did you attend any Lisa
19 McPherson memorial vigil?
20 A No. I did not.
21 Q Okay. Have you, in Scientology, attested to the
22 state of clear?
23 A Yes.
24 Q Have you ever heard of the introspection rundown
25 while you were a Scientologist?
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1 A No. It wasn't public.
2 Q What do you mean, it wasn't public?
3 A It wasn't something you could access as a staff
4 member at a Class Five org.
5 THE COURT: What was that?
6 MR. DANDAR: Someone's radio went off by
7 mistake.
8 THE COURT: Oh, okay.
9 MR. DANDAR: On that side of the room.
10 BY MR. DANDAR:
11 Q In Scientology, can you tell the Court if you ever
12 heard of something called a success story?
13 A Yes.
14 Q What is it?
15 A A success story is something anytime someone
16 finishes a process, be it auditing or training or even an
17 ethics action, you are required to write a success story in
18 order to complete that process.
19 Q Okay. And as a staff member of the Church of
20 Scientology, did you ever learn about whether or not a
21 Scientologist could lie?
22 A Yes.
23 Q How?
24 A Well, the two most common things --
25 THE COURT: Well, that was -- what you asked is
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1 did you ever learn. He said yes. What did he
2 learn? I mean, I guess that is the next question.
3 MR. DANDAR: I'm sorry.
4 BY MR. DANDAR:
5 Q What did you learn about that?
6 A There were two aspects at our org that were
7 commonly used where it was perfectly acceptable not to tell
8 the truth to someone or to lie to them outright.
9 One is the common phrase called the greatest good
10 for the greatest number, which is an abbreviation of the
11 greatest good for the greatest number of dynamics.
12 And what it basically meant was you could lie to
13 an individual in order for a greater good to help the
14 organization or the group.
15 So we would commonly misrepresent or outright lie
16 to the public. For instance, in order to get them to pay
17 money or -- or in some other way benefit the organization.
18 The second one was a term -- there are all these
19 terms that are unique to Scientology. Some of them are
20 listed in the administration dictionary. Some of them are
21 used otherwise.
22 One is called the acceptable truth. An acceptable
23 truth is where you tell somebody something in order to
24 convince them of your point. And it doesn't necessarily
25 have to be true.
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1 Q Why did you leave the Church of Scientology?
2 A Mmm, basically because of that issue about telling
3 the truth. There were many instances where I was requested,
4 even required in my job, to lie to people. And I didn't
5 want to do that.
6 Q Let's go to Bob Minton. How well do you know --
7 THE COURT: Could you give me -- I'm sorry, I
8 would just like to know. I heard both of these
9 things before, greatest good for the greatest
10 number, and acceptable truth from other people.
11 I have never really heard anybody explain --
12 for example, can you give me an example?
13 THE WITNESS: Sure. I'll give you one example
14 of each.
15