1
1
2
3        IN THE CIRCUIT COURT FOR PINELLAS COUNTY, FLORIDA
4                      CASE NO. 00-5682-CI-11
5
6
7
DELL LIEBREICH, as Personal
8   Representative of the ESTATE OF
LISA McPHERSON,
9
10             Plaintiff,
11   vs.                                     VOLUME 1
12   CHURCH OF SCIENTOLOGY FLAG
SERVICE ORGANIZATION, JANIS
13   JOHNSON, ALAIN KARTUZINSKI
and DAVID HOUGHTON, D.D.S.,
14
Defendants.
15
_______________________________________/
16
17
18   PROCEEDINGS:        Defendants' Omnibus Motion for
Terminating Sanctions and Other Relief.
19
CONTENTS:           Testimony of Jesse Prince.
20
DATE:               June 18, 2002, afternoon session.
21
PLACE:              Courtroom B, Judicial Building
22                       St. Petersburg, Florida.
23   BEFORE:             Honorable Susan F. Schaeffer,
Circuit Judge.
24
REPORTED BY:        Donna M. Kanabay, RMR, CRR,
25                       Deputy Official Court Reporter,
Sixth Judicial Circuit of Florida.



 

2
1   APPEARANCES:
2   MR. KENNAN G. DANDAR
DANDAR & DANDAR
3   5340 West Kennedy Blvd., Suite 201
Tampa, FL 33602
4   Attorneys for Plaintiff.
5   MR. LUKE CHARLES LIROT
LUKE CHARLES LIROT, PA
6   112 N East Street, Street, Suite B
Tampa, FL 33602-4108
7   Attorney for Plaintiff
8   MR. KENDRICK MOXON
MOXON & KOBRIN
9   1100 Cleveland Street, Suite 900
Clearwater, FL 33755
10   Attorney for Church of Scientology Flag Service
Organization.
11
MR. LEE FUGATE and
12   MR. MORRIS WEINBERG, JR.
ZUCKERMAN, SPAEDER
13   101 E. Kennedy Blvd, Suite 1200
Tampa, FL 33602-5147
14   Attorneys for Church of Scientology Flag Service
Organization.
15
MR. ERIC M. LIEBERMAN
16   RABINOWITZ, BOUDIN, STANDARD
740 Broadway at Astor Place
17   New York, NY 10003-9518
Attorney for Church of Scientology Flag Service
18   Organization.
19   MR. THOMAS H. MCGOWAN
MCGOWAN & SUAREZ, LLP
20   150 2nd Avenue North, Suite 870
St. Petersburg, FL 33701-3381
21   Attorney for LMT.
22
23
24
25



 

3
1                INDEX TO PROCEEDINGS AND EXHIBITS
2                                                  PAGE   LINE
3   JESSE PRINCE                                     5     13
DIRECT              Mr. Dandar                   6      5
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25



 

4
1           (The proceedings were resumed at 12:50 p.m.)
2             MR. WEINBERG:  I left that on your chair.
3             THE COURT:  Okay.
4             MR. WEINBERG:  And I have one thing to hand up
5        to you.  I'm told this is the original and the
6        copies that were made of what Mr. Keane produced to
7        Mr. Moxon yesterday?
8             THE COURT:  Oh, okay.  Great.
9             MR. WEINBERG:  The original is the thin file
10        and the copies are behind it.
11             THE COURT:  Okay.  And we'll -- as I said,
12        Mr. Keane is here, and so when he gets a chance, I'm
13        sure he'll come up.
14             MR. DANDAR:  Judge, I believe I moved
15        Plaintiff's Exhibits 104, 105, 106 and 107 into
16        evidence, and Mr. Young had the clerk's copies, and
17        they're not marked yet, so --
18             MR. WEINBERG:  Let me see 107.
19             MR. DANDAR:  These are the letters.
20             MR. WEINBERG:  We objected to the dictionary
21        but you had let it in, so --
22             THE COURT:  Right.
23             Possibly on these -- this production, it could
24        be something similar to the -- this -- this order.
25        I mean, he may have mailed a copy.



 

5
1             This is the order you just put back on my
2        chair.
3             MR. WEINBERG:  Oh, yeah.
4             THE COURT:  If he mailed them to you yesterday,
5        but -- I mean, we'll just have to wait and see.
6             MR. WEINBERG:  All right.
7             THE COURT:  So let's go ahead and continue on
8        and we'll see if Mr. Keane has -- gets a chance to
9        come up here.
10             MR. DANDAR:  All right.  Plaintiff calls
11        Mr. Prince.
12               ____________________________________
13                          JESSE PRINCE,
14   the witness herein, being first duly sworn, was examined
15   and testified as follows:
16             MR. WEINBERG:  For the record, your Honor, I
17        want to preserve the same objection that we've made
18        to Mr. Franks -- is that his name -- Mr. Franks and
19        Mr. Young, which is, among other things, the 404,
20        406, the First Amendment, and overall, at least as
21        it relates to the -- paragraph 34 of the complaint,
22        to competence, in light of the fact that he left the
23        church years before and doesn't have any personal
24        knowledge of what if anything occurred in 1995.
25             THE COURT:  All right.



 

6
1             MR. WEINBERG:  Same objection.  I presume that
2        it's preserved?  And I will limit my objections to
3        things like hearsay and other --
4             THE COURT:  It is preserved.
5                        DIRECT EXAMINATION
6   BY MR. DANDAR:
7        Q    Please state your name, and spell your last name.
8             THE COURT:  What witness is that?  Do you all
9        have the numbers by any chance?  How many witnesses
10        have you called, do you remember?
11             MR. DANDAR:  Caught me off guard.
12             THE COURT:  All right.  I'm just trying to put
13        a number with it.
14             Go ahead.
15        A    Jesse Prince, J-e-s-s-e, P-r-i-n-c-e.
16             MR. DANDAR:  Okay.  I think we're number six.
17             THE COURT:  Okay.
18             MR. DANDAR:  I'll double-check.  Mr. Lirot will
19        be checking.
20   BY MR. DANDAR:
21        Q    Mr. Prince, how long have you lived in Pinellas
22   County?
23        A    Oh, for a little over two and a half years.
24        Q    Are you currently employed?
25        A    No, I am not.



 

7
1        Q    When is the last time you were employed?
2        A    Last September.
3        Q    And who were you employed by?
4        A    The Lisa McPherson Trust.
5        Q    What is the extent of your formal education?
6        A    Went to Catholic school pretty much all of my
7   elementary years.  I was born and raised a Catholic.  Went
8   to Chicago Vocational High School; went to Job Corps; went
9   to community college, college prep in Chicago.  I had a
10   scholarship for University of Louisiana which I never took.
11   And that's pretty much it.
12        Q    Why didn't you take the scholarship to Louisiana?
13        A    'Cause I was afraid to go there.
14        Q    All right.
15             MR. WEINBERG:  Your Honor, could we possibly --
16        I don't know if the microphone's on or not, but I'm
17        having a hard time hearing Mr. Prince.
18             THE COURT:  Check and see if the microphone's
19        on.
20             MR. WEINBERG:  If you could get -- not that
21        close, but a little bit closer than he was.
22   BY MR. DANDAR:
23        Q    Just try to talk into it.
24        A    Okay.
25        Q    So what did you do after finishing your formal



 

8
1   education?
2        A    I had various jobs.  I worked at the Norfolk and
3   Western Railroad as a clerk.  I've worked in binderies, a
4   place in Chicago, Fidelity Bindery.  And -- well, wasn't too
5   much time after that before I became a Scientologist.
6        Q    What year did you join the Church of Scientology?
7        A    It was 1976.
8        Q    Where at?
9        A    San Francisco.
10        Q    And when did you become a Sea Org member?
11        A    I became a Sea Org member that same year.  I
12   believe I transferred to Los Angeles from San Francisco,
13   maybe in November, September or -- maybe September; sometime
14   between September or October, November, I went to the Sea
15   Org.
16        Q    Okay.  And can you tell us -- give us a capsule of
17   your experience in the Church of Scientology after becoming
18   a Sea Org member?  What did you do?
19        A    Well, I joined the Sea Org in '76.  And then at
20   that time, when you joined the Sea Org, there was a program
21   that was called the EPF that everyone who was becoming a Sea
22   Org member did.  EPF stood for estate's project force.  This
23   was located in a little house in -- in Los Angeles.  I guess
24   it was an old Charlie Chaplin estate.  It was a place where
25   you had to do training to become a Sea Org member.



 

9
1             The training for the most part culminated to
2   making you a missionaire.  A missionaire in the Sea Org is a
3   person that has studied certain levels up to at least what's
4   called staff status 2, which basically means you're familiar
5   with the basics of the organization, how it operates, how
6   it's staffed, how it's organized, the statistics of the area
7   and the rules and regulations.
8             It trains -- the mission school training involved
9   something that I guess I never even thought before.  It was
10   very military, where you -- you wear a uniform and you --
11   you're trained on orders to go to a Scientology organization
12   and improve the statistics by either changing personnel or
13   increasing production one way or the other.
14        Q    And how long did you maintain that status?
15        A    During the entire time, from -- from that point,
16   which would have been in 1977, to the time that I left in
17   1992.
18        Q    And what organization -- when you became a Sea Org
19   member and became staff, what organization was paying you?
20        A    Organization called the Advanced Organization Los
21   Angeles.
22        Q    And did you ever change from that to another?
23        A    Yes, I did.  I never made it through the EPF
24   before I was put on the RPF.  I was on the RPF for -- RPF
25   being the rehabilitation project force.  I was on the RPF



 

10
1   for 18 months.  And I got out of the RPF and went to an
2   organization called the PAC Co-Auditor Organization, P-A-C,
3   Pacific Area Command, Co-Auditor Organization.  This was a
4   Scientology organization that basically supervised and
5   trained staff members to audit themselves on Scientology's
6   bridge.
7        Q    How long did you stay there?
8        A    I probably stayed there for probably a little
9   under a year.  And I transferred from Los Angeles to here in
10   Clearwater, Florida in 1979, and I worked in -- at the Ft.
11   Harrison --
12        Q    What did you do --
13        A    -- and various other buildings.
14             I came there -- I came to Florida here to be a
15   supervisor; to actually train and supervise the training of
16   auditors, which are members that partake in the -- the
17   technical aspect of delivery of Scientology services.
18        Q    You were an auditor?
19        A    Yes, I was.
20        Q    And when did you --
21             THE COURT:  I'm sorry.  You came to Clearwater
22        when, sir?
23             THE WITNESS:  1979.
24             THE COURT:  To train supervisors.
25             THE WITNESS:  To -- to become a supervisor.  I



 

11
1        came here actually as a supervisor, to train
2        auditors.
3             At the time, NED for OTs had recently come out.
4        This was a big advance.
5   BY MR. DANDAR:
6        Q    NED, N-E-D?
7        A    Yes.
8        Q    What does that mean?
9        A    New era dynamics for operating thetans.
10        Q    This had just come out?
11        A    Yes.  This was new technology that had came out.
12   And it was urgent at that time in Scientology to be able to
13   train auditors in this new rundown.  This rundown is
14   delivered only by certain organizations, Flag being one of
15   them.  There's others in other countries.  And this was a
16   very specialized type of auditing.  So I was to train the
17   bulk of the auditors on this process so that they could then
18   go back to their organizations and deliver this new rundown.
19        Q    How did you did learn how to do it -- how did you
20   learn about it before you were able to train other auditors?
21        A    Well, there were other auditor levels that one had
22   to train on before being able to train on this NED for OT
23   levels.  I guess there was a requirement that a person had
24   to at least do Scientology academy levels, which are levels
25   0 to 4, specific auditing techniques.  And once you were



 

12
1   in -- trained and interned on that, you became eligible to
2   also learn to do this new NED for OTs business.
3             You also had to be of the same case level in order
4   to do that.  So for a person to be trained as a NED for OTs
5   auditor, they would have had to go through Scientology's
6   bridge all the way up to and through OT 3 expanded.
7        Q    How far up the bridge had you gotten before you
8   came to Clearwater?
9        A    I had done -- or I was mid what was called old OT
10   6.
11        Q    Okay.
12        A    And at the time, the levels only went to OT 7.  So
13   I was on the old OT 6.  Now, those OT levels changed with
14   the advent of NED for OTs to become something totally
15   different.  OT 4, 5, 6, 7 and 8 are something totally
16   different than what the services that were earlier offered
17   under those same names.
18        Q    How long did you stay in Clearwater, from 1979, to
19   supervise and train auditors?
20        A    I was here from the summer of '79 till the fall of
21   1982.
22        Q    And did your scope of the work that you were doing
23   at the Ft. Harrison and other Scientology buildings here in
24   Clearwater from '79 to '82 change?
25        A    Yes, it did.  It changed several times.  I went



 

13
1   from supervising auditors, to train them to get up to the
2   level of NED 4 OTs, to being --
3             THE COURT:  I don't know what you're saying.
4        NED fro-teez (phonetic.)
5             THE WITNESS:  New era dynamic for operating
6        thetans.  This is --
7             MR. DANDAR:  NED is N-E-D.
8             THE COURT:  For OTs.
9             MR. DANDAR:  F-o-r.  Yes.
10             THE COURT:  Okay.  Go ahead.
11        A    Anyway, I forgot what I was --
12   BY MR. DANDAR:
13        Q    Was NED for OTs --
14        A    Yes.
15        Q    -- written by Mr. Hubbard?
16        A    At the time that I studied them, I thought that it
17   was that.  I -- subsequently I guess it was determined in
18   the courtroom that the materials were actually written by
19   David Mayo.
20        Q    Okay.  But anyway, you were -- who were you
21   working for when you were sent to Clearwater from '79 to
22   '82?
23        A    Well, when I first arrived in 1979, I worked for
24   an organization that wasn't at the Ft. Harrison but at the
25   Clearwater Bank Building.  It was called the International



 

14
1   Training Org, ITO for short.  At the time the commanding
2   officer for the international training organization was Bill
3   Franks.
4        Q    Okay.  So you worked under him?
5        A    Under his command as the commanding officer.  I
6   had -- there were other people between myself and --
7        Q    Okay.
8        A    -- Mr. Franks for sure.
9        Q    Did you run into -- in Clearwater, did you train
10   Alain Kartuzinski?
11        A    Yes.  Alain Kartuzinski was a student that had
12   come from Paris to train on NED for OTs.  I do believe the
13   original idea for him was to go to one of the European
14   organizations such as Advanced Organization for Europe or --
15   yeah.  I think he was supposed to go to AOSH EU --
16        Q    Okay.
17        A    -- it's called, which is located in Copenhagen,
18   Denmark.  Or he would go to the one located in Saint Hill,
19   East Grinstead, Sussex.
20        Q    Try to keep closer to the microphone.
21        A    I'm sorry.
22        Q    And what else did you do in Clearwater from '79 to
23   '82, in addition to training auditors on this new rundown?
24        A    Well, I became what's known as the intern
25   supervisor, which is the supervisor that takes the students



 

15
1   that have finished their courses and then puts them through
2   a period of time where they have to demonstrate their skills
3   by auditing other people.  And they continue to do this
4   until they can do it perfectly and flawlessly.  The intern
5   supervisor is there to guide and direct and correct students
6   on the materials that they may not have understood as deeply
7   and as -- as would later be required for them to apply.
8             So I was the supervisor for a long time.
9             And then there is another position -- and all of
10   these things are -- kind of segue into one another -- of
11   what's called a cramming officer.  Now, a cramming officer
12   will take a person who maybe is making errors in auditing
13   and then correct them on their procedures or go over the
14   exact bulletin or policy or whatever it may be that was not
15   followed exactly, and to make the person understand and
16   agree with that policy, and then apply it as written.
17             So I did that for a long time.
18             And then I became the chief cramming officer at
19   the Flag Service Organization.  I did this correction type
20   of activities for auditors from level 0 to level 12, which
21   would be the highest level in what are called the Ls in
22   Scientology.  And I would do correction on all the auditors
23   as well as the case supervisors.
24        Q    Now, were you -- did you have -- in order to be a
25   supervisor or cramming officer for auditors and supervisors,



 

16
1   if I'm saying this right, did you have more training than
2   they had?
3        A    Not necessarily.  I certainly did not have more
4   training than the majority of the case supervisors that I
5   would do correction on.  And I did not train on the Ls,
6   which would be 10, 11 and 12, which are the highest levels
7   of -- of Scientology.  But I was like a class 9 auditor.
8        Q    At that time.
9        A    Yes.
10        Q    Did you ever get higher than that?
11        A    Yes.  I became a -- I was interned as an auditor,
12   certified as a class 9 auditor; certified as a
13   corrections -- a cramming officer, correction officer;
14   certified as a case supervisor for a class 9 as well.
15        Q    Okay.  And how high on the bridge did you go?
16        A    When I left, I had completed what's known in
17   Scientology as OT 7.
18        Q    Okay.  All right.  So have we covered your years
19   from '79 to '82 in Clearwater --
20        A    Yes.
21        Q    -- as what you did?
22        A    Yes.
23        Q    Okay.  What did you do after '82?
24        A    I was transferred -- well, in 1982, in the fall of
25   1982, I was transferred to work at the Scientology



 

17
1   International headquarters.  Of course I didn't know it was
2   that at the time.  But I was transferred to work at Golden
3   Era Productions, which is the movie production studio that
4   Scientology has in the desert at Gilman Hot Springs,
5   California.  I was transferred to work in the RTC as a
6   corrections specialist.
7        Q    And how long did you do that?
8        A    I probably did that from '82 -- for about a year
9   and a half.  I did that job for about a year and a half.
10   Maybe to 1985 and -- or maybe even '84.  Because after that,
11   I was promoted to a higher position; became the deputy
12   inspector general for the Religious Technology Center.
13        Q    And who appointed you to that position?
14        A    Vicki Aznaran appointed me to that position.  It
15   was approved by those that -- you know, the seniors above
16   that area, which was David Miscavige.
17        Q    Did Mr. Hubbard ever have any input in any of the
18   selections -- selecting you for any position?
19        A    In -- in as much as when I left here in Florida,
20   there was a -- a mission out to find the best supervisor,
21   best cramming officer in Scientology, and to bring that
22   person to international management, and correct
23   international management on its application of Scientology
24   policies.  A search was done in the organizations
25   internationally, and at the end of that -- the weeding-out



 

18
1   process, I guess my name came up as the person to fill that
2   job.  So he was informed that I had that job, and he
3   welcomed me to that job when I arrived in California.
4        Q    How did he -- Mr. Hubbard welcome you to that job?
5        A    He sent me a dispatch, a letter --
6        Q    Okay.
7        A    -- welcoming me.
8        Q    And what is the duties of the deputy inspector
9   general of RTC?
10        A    Well, this may take a while.
11             But as the deputy inspector general -- there's
12   only one position higher than that in the Scientology
13   ecclesiastical org board, which would have been inspector
14   general.
15             RTC licensed other Scientology corporations to use
16   the trademarks, a licensing agreement.  And RTC was
17   responsible, I believe -- maybe still is responsible -- for
18   ensuring the purity of application and delivery of
19   Scientology technology, auditing technology as well as
20   administrative policies.
21             And so because we licensed different corporations
22   such as the Church of Scientology International -- if you
23   had organizing chart you would have RTC, which would be
24   here; then you would have the mother church, which is the
25   Church of Scientology International, which is here.  The



 

19
1   mother church in turn then license other organizations, such
2   as the Flag Service Organization, AOSH EU, AOSH UK, and the
3   Los Angeles organization missions.  Whatever entities were
4   using the trademarks and copyrighted works of L. Ron
5   Hubbard, they were given a licensing agreement.
6             So in that regard, ultimately -- there's a very
7   strict policy in Scientology called Keeping Scientology
8   Working, where it's imperative that everything is done
9   exactly according to the policies and technical bulletins
10   written.  I was ultimately responsible to ensure that not
11   only the Church of Scientology International was making good
12   on its licensing agreements, but it was also enforcing it
13   down through other organizations to make sure that they were
14   adhering to their licensing agreement to apply Scientology
15   technology 100 percent standard.
16             You know, this is a -- a term that they use.
17             So I had that responsibility --
18             THE COURT:  Oh, just a second here.  We have --
19        I see Mr. Keane back there.
20             Mr. Keane, I hope you haven't been back there
21        long.
22             Let me just take --
23             Are you in with Judge Lenderman?
24             MR. KEANE:  I'm good until 1:29.
25             THE COURT:  I'm going to take a break.



 

20
1                (A recess was taken at 1:13 p.m.)
2           (The proceedings were resumed at 1:49 p.m.)
3             THE COURT:  Okay.  Let me see if I can make
4        some sense of this.
5             According to Mr. Keane, he says that early on
6        this witness list was indeed agreed to by everybody,
7        that everybody knew what it was, and that it was
8        called that, and that's the witness list he's been
9        working off of ever since.
10             MR. DANDAR:  The letter I was handed, that was
11        handed to you from Mr. Moxon to Mr. Keane, dated
12        December 14th, 2001 states, "This is the search
13        list."  And that's what's attached to his June 17th
14        order.  "I have also highlighted the same names on
15        the witness list referenced above so you can see
16        where they came from."
17             So the search list includes a lot more names
18        than what's on anyone's witness list.
19             THE COURT:  I don't know what you're talking
20        about.  I have no idea what you're reading from.
21             MR. DANDAR:  Oh, I'm sorry.  Mr. Moxon's letter
22        of December 14th, 2001.
23             THE COURT:  Now where you are reading on from
24        on this?
25             MR. DANDAR:  Bottom paragraph.



 

21
1             THE COURT:  Right.
2             MR. DANDAR:  He says this is the search list.
3             THE COURT:  Okay.
4             MR. DANDAR:  And he says that's the names from
5        which the search would be requested by defendants.
6        And he says, "I have also highlighted these same
7        names on the witness list referenced above."  And
8        the witness list referenced above are real witness
9        lists.  And I'm telling the court that the search
10        list includes more than the witness list.
11             THE COURT:  Well, this was sent, a copy of
12        this, to you.
13             MR. DANDAR:  That's what it says, yes.
14             THE COURT:  And then -- I don't know -- this is
15        additional witnesses that's attached to this --
16             MR. WEINBERG:  Just one of the exhibits.  It
17        was just one of the exhibits.  The other exhibits --
18        I'm sorry, your Honor.  As indicated in the letter,
19        they were tabbed -- they were A through F tabs.  And
20        we just -- we didn't include for your purposes the
21        other tabs.  We can print it all out.  But this was
22        tabbed -- which one -- E.  This was tab E that we
23        attached, which had some of those additional names
24        that Mr. Dandar was complaining about back in the
25        back, when you and Mr. Dandar and I were with



 

22
1        Mr. McGowan earlier.
2             THE COURT:  And that's the one that has Kennan
3        Dandar, Thomas Dandar, Ray Emmons --
4             MR. WEINBERG:  Right.
5             THE COURT:  -- Michael Garko, Thomas Haverty --
6             MR. DANDAR:  Patricia Greenway.
7             MR. WEINBERG:  So Mr. Keane is right.
8             So if that wasn't enough, on June 7th
9        Mr. Dandar wrote a letter to Mr. Keane.  And we
10        handed that up.  And among other things, he wanted
11        all videos of him produced by Mr. Keane.
12             THE COURT:  Well, it says, "I have also
13        included several additional witnesses who either
14        provided affidavits or deposition testimony or are
15        the subject of dispute as to whether or not they
16        should be required to give testimony."
17             What does that have to do with any judge's
18        order?  This is to be a judge's order.
19             MR. WEINBERG:  Because --
20             THE COURT:  Said somebody on a witness list.
21             MR. WEINBERG:  No.  What the October order of
22        Judge -- Judge Quesada went further -- because this
23        had been going on for a long time.  It was actually
24        a November order.  What Judge Quesada --
25             I can hand it up to you.  It's one of the



 

23
1        series of orders.
2             THE COURT:  All right.
3             MR. WEINBERG:  And it started in 2000 and this
4        was in 2000.
5             You go to -- you go to page 2, you'll see it
6        was expanded by Judge Quesada to include not only
7        people on the witness list, but any other person
8        reasonably identifiable as a witness to the facts in
9        this case.
10             THE COURT:  Well, you think that means the
11        lawyer?  Is that what you're telling me?
12             MR. WEINBERG:  Well, remember, after -- this
13        was a -- this was a living -- there was an argument
14        at some point by Mr. Dandar that -- or by
15        Mr. Merrett, I guess it was -- that this should be
16        limited to whenever the subpoena was originally
17        served.  And what the judge has ruled is that no,
18        you can't -- you know, this is a living thing here.
19             And by this time we had an affirmative defense
20        that ultimately became the counterclaim.  And as
21        witnesses to the affirmative defense, which is --
22        which is the -- the issues -- the ultimate issues in
23        the counterclaim, all of these people with regard
24        to, you know, Mr. Dandar, the people at the LMT --
25        those were all going to be witnesses and will be



 

24
1        witnesses to -- to that.  I mean, that's what this
2        hearing in part --
3             THE COURT:  Well, do you think that Judge
4        Quesada meant to include the lawyers and the
5        investigator when he signed this, saying, "Well, any
6        other person reasonably identified as a witness to
7        the facts in this case"?
8             MR. WEINBERG:  Well, I guess I can't get into
9        Judge Quesada's head.
10             THE COURT:  I guess.
11             MR. WEINBERG:  All I know is this was -- at the
12        time -- subsequently when this was being exchanged
13        between counsel, with Mr. Keane, all of this was put
14        in front of Mr. Keane.  Both sides had it.  And
15        Mr. Keane is right; that it was agreed to.
16             And if that wasn't enough, Mr. Dandar, just 10
17        days ago, wrote a letter to Mr. Keane saying that,
18        "During the inspection of the videos provided by the
19        LMT, we are requesting copies of the following
20        videos be provided to the estate."  And those
21        include all videos of Ken Dandar.  So -- among
22        others.
23             So it's obvious that his understanding was the
24        same as our understanding, which is the same as
25        Mr. Keane's understanding, that, among others, the



 

25
1        videos of the LMT that had to do with Mr. Dandar --
2        which couldn't have been privileged or work product,
3        even his testimony --
4             THE COURT:  The problem is, whether they're
5        privileged or whether they're not, no judge in this
6        circuit, including Judge Quesada, would want you to
7        have work product of another lawyer to give you an
8        advantage in this case.
9             MR. WEINBERG:  But it's not work product.  I
10        mean, work product has to have some --
11             THE COURT:  I don't care if he's talking to the
12        world.  Judge Quesada would not have wanted you to
13        have Mr. Dandar on tape telling anybody over at LMT,
14        "This is how I'm going to proceed with my lawsuit."
15             MR. WEINBERG:  Well, but that's our -- that is
16        our claim, that that's precisely what Mr. Dandar was
17        doing.  That is part of the claim.
18             THE COURT:  That is not -- has nothing to do
19        with the wrongful death.  This thing was filed --
20        this thing was signed back in November of 2000.
21             MR. WEINBERG:  That's correct.  We --
22             THE COURT:  You didn't file this thing --
23        this -- this motion back then.  This motion is a
24        very recent motion.
25             MR. WEINBERG:  Well, which motion are we



 

26
1        talking about?
2             THE COURT:  The motion that is at hearing and
3        is at issue here.
4             MR. WEINBERG:  No, but what we had filed by
5        then -- and someone will correct me if I'm wrong --
6        is our -- is our defense, which -- our affirmative
7        defense, which started out being an affirmative
8        defense with regard to the allegations concerning
9        how the LMT had -- and Minton had taken control of
10        the litigation.  All that was there.  That was when
11        we -- when we -- that was our defense.
12             Ultimately in 2002, I guess it was, we
13        converted that -- or 2001, converted that into a
14        counterclaim which is before the court.  But I mean,
15        that started out -- that was one of our, you know,
16        primary defenses.
17             And that's how all this got going in 2000 with
18        all the litigation concerning the LMT.  Our position
19        was Mr. Minton had taken over the litigation; that
20        he was using the LMT to foster the litigation for
21        improper purpose, and -- and that in essence was
22        running the litigation and running Mr. Dandar.
23             THE COURT:  Well --
24             MR. DANDAR:  Judge --
25             THE COURT:  -- I don't care what some other



 

27
1        judge has done.  You are not getting Mr. Dandar's
2        notes; you are not getting Mr. Dandar's videos until
3        I see them; you are not getting Mr. Dandar's e-mails
4        beyond the hundreds of them that you've already
5        gotten, apparently; you are not getting any of that
6        stuff until I see it and make sure that it has --
7        there's some reason why the opposition ought to have
8        it.
9             MR. WEINBERG:  Okay.  Well, just for the
10        record, if I can, first of all, we have everything
11        that we have --
12             THE COURT:  Well, for the record, did you see
13        this additional list?
14             MR. DANDAR:  Judge, I can't stand here and tell
15        you that I did.  I can't stand --
16             THE COURT:  Well, can you tell me that you did
17        not or you just don't have a clue?
18             MR. DANDAR:  I have no clue if I ever got this
19        letter.
20             THE COURT:  But you saw it and you said what
21        you said to me in chambers.
22             Why didn't you bring this to my attention a
23        long time ago?
24             MR. DANDAR:  It appears to me I would have done
25        that had I saw my name and my investigators, several



 

28
1        of them, and trial consultants on here, like Brian
2        Haney, Patricia Greenway, Michael Garko, Ray Emmons,
3        Tom Dandar, Ken Dandar -- I would have objected to
4        that.  Ursula Caberta -- my God, she's a government
5        official that has nothing to do with this case
6        whatsoever.
7             And Judge Beach even modified Judge Quesada's
8        order and narrowed it down and said -- I recall this
9        because Mr. Moxon and I were at one of these
10        hearings with Judge Beach.  He said Judge Quesada
11        said, "The facts of this case, Lisa McPherson case."
12        And he said, "You will not get any other person
13        unless they are a witness to the Lisa McPherson
14        death."
15             MR. WEINBERG:  I just don't see how Mr. Dandar
16        can say that, you know.  Every --
17             MR. DANDAR:  And I will produce --
18             MR. WEINBERG:  Every time we produce a document
19        that has his name on it, he says, "Well, I don't
20        have it.  I can't find it.  I didn't get it."
21             THE COURT:  No, he didn't say whether he did or
22        he didn't.  He said he doesn't know.
23             MR. WEINBERG:  Well, you know, he -- he did.
24             THE COURT:  Well, you don't know whether he did
25        or he didn't either.  For all you know it's sitting



 

29
1        over there on his desk.  You all have about ten
2        lawyers.  He's alone.  His mail could be unopened.
3        That's not your fault.  But you don't know whether
4        he's seen it or whether he hasn't.
5             MR. DANDAR:  I know that we sent it to him.
6             THE COURT:  All right.
7             MR. WIENBERG:  And I know that the practice is,
8        in addition to sending it, is to fax it.  And that's
9        the practice on both sides.  But I'm also concerned
10        about --
11             THE COURT:  Who is Thomas Haverty?
12             MR. DANDAR:  That's my investigator.
13             THE COURT:  And why was it that you thought
14        that he might be a -- reasonably a fact witness so
15        you could have his information?
16             MR. MOXON:  I can respond to that, your Honor.
17
18             Mr. Haverty is someone -- remember he did this
19        whole thing with the roach experiment?  He organized
20        and actually pulled this experiment with the
21        roaches.  And that was one of the videos you may
22        have seen during the Frye hearings, was
23        Mr. Haverty --
24             THE COURT:  Well, I don't see it here limited
25        to anything dealing with roaches.  This is a law



 

30
1        firm's investigator.  You said, "Give me
2        everything," and said Mr. Dandar said it was okay,
3        anything -- any e-mail, any video, any anything --
4             MR. MOXON:  I didn't --
5             THE COURT:  -- that's investigated.
6             MR. MOXON:  I didn't finish my answer, your
7        Honor.
8             THE COURT:  All right.
9             MR. MOXON:  Mr. Haverty was also seen many
10        times at LMT.  This goes very directly to Mr. Dandar
11        using LMT, using it through Mr. Haverty.
12        Mr. Haverty once accosted me outside the church.  He
13        ran out of LMT and accosted me personally.  He was
14        seen in other cities tailing and taking photographs,
15        for example, of Mr. Lieberman and other attorneys
16        who were at a deposition.
17             Mr. Haverty also was -- has custody of the
18        Jeep.  He -- somehow he was able to get custody of
19        the Jeep used in this accident.
20             THE COURT:  What Jeep?
21             MR. MOXON:  Lisa McPherson's Jeep that was
22        involved in the accident.  So we definitely want to
23        question him about that, because the Jeep has
24        apparently been damaged and had other things happen
25        to it in the meantime.



 

31
1             So Mr. Haverty has been involved in a number of
2        those issues.
3             But the thing I was most concerned about
4        obviously with the LMT, was using Mr. Haverty, as
5        with other agents through LMT, to have some effect
6        on this case.
7             THE COURT:  All right.
8             MR. MOXON:  That's why he was on there.
9             THE COURT:  This -- I find this almost beyond
10        belief that you, Mr. Dandar -- if you -- if you have
11        this in your office --
12             MR. DANDAR:  We're checking now.
13             THE COURT:  -- that you didn't bring this to my
14        attention and object to it and object to it
15        strenuously.  Then we could have had this argument.
16        Unfortunately, Mr. Keane says this was all agreed to
17        by everybody.  And therefore, this list is the
18        list -- the list that is attached to his Interim
19        Report of Special Master to Examine LMT Records and
20        Preserving Records.  This is what he calls a search
21        list, Exhibit A, which has a huge number of people
22        on it.  A huge number of people.  Some of whom are
23        Michael Garko, Patricia Greenway, Thomas Haverty,
24        Kennan Dandar, Thomas Dandar -- I have no idea what
25        he knows about this case -- Ray Emmons --



 

32
1             Did you tell me he was one of --
2             MR. DANDAR:  Yes.
3             THE COURT:  What is he?
4             MR. DANDAR:  An investigator.
5             THE COURT:  Michael Garko, I know, is an
6        investigator.
7             MR. DANDAR:  Trial consultant.
8             MR. WEINBERG:  No, no.  He's a trial
9        consultant.
10             THE COURT:  Trial consultant.  Okay.
11             Anyway, it goes on and on.  I don't know who
12        all is on here.
13             MR. WEINBERG:  Well, a lot of them are church
14        witnesses.  That's a consolidation of -- of
15        witnesses --
16             THE COURT:  I'm talking about those that I
17        might have expected if Mr. Dandar was raising what
18        he was raising in my --
19             MR. WEINBERG:  Oh.
20             THE COURT:  -- in my chambers, he would have
21        raised.  Those are the witnesses I was assuming --
22             MR. WEINBERG:  I'm sorry.
23             THE COURT:  -- he would have objected to.
24             MR. DANDAR:  Yes.
25             THE COURT:  So I mean, you got this letter,



 

33
1        Mr. Keane's been operating off of this since this
2        process started.  And you know, I don't know what to
3        tell you.  You can't keep up with what's going on in
4        your office, then you need to get off the case.  If
5        you got this and you have an objection and you were
6        letting this go on, you can't expect me to come in
7        and save your bacon or save the day --
8             MR. DANDAR:  If --
9             THE COURT:  -- you know.  So -- so now you're
10        all upset and -- and Mr. Keane says, "Well, gee,
11        I've been operating under this from the very
12        beginning."
13             MR. DANDAR:  It's only very few of the people
14        that we're objecting to on that search list.  And
15        the fact that it hasn't been turned over yet, I
16        think --
17             THE COURT:  He's got hundreds of documents that
18        have been turned over.  As a matter of fact I've got
19        here copies for you of what has been turned over
20        last night.
21             And no, Mr. Keane isn't making copies.  He's
22        going on the assumption that there's an order that
23        says that these things are to be turned over.  He
24        says he got together with all the lawyers, including
25        you, including Mr. Merrett, including Mr. Moxon or I



 

34
1        don't know who all over there, and they -- he said
2        he tried to get his arms around it and said, "Let's
3        decide how we're going to do this."  And then, as
4        things started showing up and it appeared that it
5        matched the order that the judge required, he was
6        giving it over to LMT's lawyer to see whether or not
7        he was claiming a privilege of any sort.  And if so,
8        those are kept separate and those are going to be
9        turned over to me.
10             And if, in fact, there was no privilege claim,
11        he was calling Mr. Moxon -- who, by the way, both
12        sides seem to say knew before they knew that the
13        documents were there -- and Mr. Moxon was right
14        there instantly, wanting them, and everything was
15        turned over, because it complied with the court
16        order.
17             Now, he was not making copies for you.
18        Apparently they're there.  If you want them, you can
19        have them.  If you don't have the time to go get
20        them, what is it I'm supposed to do for you?
21             MR. DANDAR:  Judge, I don't think you could
22        expect me to expect that the LMT, for instance, had
23        a e-mail of some sort from me to Mr. Young from
24        April of '98 before the LMT was ever even formed.
25             THE COURT:  No, I couldn't expect that.  But



 

35
1        obviously, they do.  And obviously, they probably
2        have a lot of other stuff.  I don't know what they
3        have.  But what I suggest you do is get yourself or
4        get somebody else over to Mr. Keane's office and see
5        what it is you want.
6             MR. DANDAR:  Has Mr. Keane told you that they
7        already produced these videos of me and my
8        investigators?
9             THE COURT:  No.  The videos, I stopped the
10        videos myself and said that none of them would be
11        turned over until I went through and decided whether
12        to turn them over, and that's what I'm -- I'm going
13        to take care of that this afternoon.
14             I can't help you with these.  Here's your copy.
15        That's what was turned over.
16             MR. WEINBERG:  Ours back?
17             THE COURT:  Well, let me look in them and see
18        if this is the same thing.  I never did compare
19        them.  I'm just assuming --
20             Mr. Keane -- and I also entered an oral verbal
21        order to Mr. Keane that he is to produce nothing to
22        you that has Mr. Dandar, from or to, until such time
23        as I review it and decide whether or not you should
24        get it.
25             And frankly --



 

36
1             MR. WEINBERG:  The top thing should just be
2        what you just turned over, probably, and the other
3        ones are copies.
4             THE COURT:  Okay.
5             MR. MOXON:  There's a smaller packet too, your
6        Honor, a few other pages.
7             THE COURT:  Maybe you can help me, this Text
8        Fragments --
9             MR. WEINBERG:  All right.  Maybe Mr. Moxon --
10             THE COURT:  Okay.
11             MR. WEINBERG:  I haven't looked at those.
12             THE COURT:  Are these all the same things,
13        copies?
14             MR. MOXON:  The big ones are all -- this is
15        different, the small one, your Honor.  This is
16        different.  There's two of these.  I just made extra
17        copies is all.
18             THE COURT:  Okay.  What I have right here, Text
19        Fragments, is the same as this.  That's what I just
20        gave him a copy of.  I'll keep a copy of it.  For
21        what, I don't know.  I'll just go through it and
22        see.
23             You may have these back.
24             Those have been turned over, pursuant to
25        what --



 

37
1             MR. MOXON:  And this smaller --
2             THE COURT:  This smaller packet.
3             MR. MOXON:  I only have two of those.
4             THE COURT:  Wait a minute now.  Let me see.  I
5        think here's another one --
6             Is this it?
7             MR. MOXON:  I guess that's both of them.  That
8        must be both.
9             Okay.  I see that's probably the small one and
10        large.
11             THE COURT:  It is?
12             MR. MOXON:  Yeah.
13             THE COURT:  Okay.  Well, let's be sure.
14             MR. MOXON:  May I?
15             THE COURT:  Yes.
16             MR. MOXON:  Yeah.  Text Fragments.
17             THE COURT:  That look like this?
18             Okay.  You've got that, you can take that then.
19        I'm going to give Mr. Dandar a copy of this then.
20        Apparently that's a copy --
21             And I'll have this.  And --
22             But I believe there are other documents, many
23        other documents that have been turned over.
24             MR. MOXON:  There's a large binder, which is
25        just single lines with a name on them, just an



 

38
1        Internet name, but they're -- those are the
2        documents from which these can be printed out.  But
3        it's literally one binder with a listing of 30,000
4        different documents.  And I'll give that back.
5        Mr. Keane said, "Look through this.  If there's
6        anything else that you feel is appropriate that you
7        want to -- to have the computer expert print off,
8        you can mark it and we'll give it back to the
9        computer fellow."  But I haven't done anything with
10        that.
11             THE COURT:  Mr. Keane seemed to imply that
12        whatever it was, up till recently, was stuff that
13        probably had very little if anything to do with
14        anything.
15             MR. MOXON:  Yeah.
16             THE COURT:  But -- for example, he asked --
17        said you asked him to do a search, or whoever it is
18        that does this --
19             MR. MOXON:  Yeah.
20             THE COURT:  -- for anything that had "Ken
21        Dandar," and he said so that would be, then -- I
22        guess.  I don't know if this is it or if that's to
23        be forthcoming.
24             MR. MOXON:  No, this is it.  That's in that
25        huge binder.  There were a few that were



 

39
1        communications from LMT that obviously were cc'ed to
2        Mr. Dandar.  Looked very, very suspicious, and
3        appeared to us to be that Mr. Dandar's testimony was
4        inaccurate that he hasn't been coordinating things
5        with LMT.
6             In fact there's -- one of these --
7             THE COURT:  So -- so this little packet right
8        here is the packet that deals with the search for
9        "Mr. Dandar."
10             MR. MOXON:  That's all --
11             THE COURT:  So this is it.
12             MR. MOXON:  Yeah.
13             THE COURT:  Okay.  Well, I'll -- I'll take a
14        look at it and see what it is.  But they've got it
15        and --
16             MR. DANDAR:  How can -- I can't waive my
17        privilege just because they got it and someone got
18        it -- into the LMT computers by some means without
19        my consent at all.  I mean, this -- this thing --
20        this e-mail they produced this morning with Vaughn
21        Young and I, that was never part of the LMT.  Young
22        said he erased it; his wife, who was divorcing him
23        at that time, didn't have access to his hard drive.
24        Yet it shows up mysteriously on an LMT hard drive.
25             THE COURT:  Well, Mr. Keane says these hard



 

40
1        drives showed up mysteriously.  All this is coming
2        off of hard drives that mysteriously showed up.
3        From somewhere.  He doesn't even know where.
4             MR. DANDAR:  But it doesn't give the defense
5        the right to work product even if it -- if it shows
6        up there by a third party.  When you see work
7        product from an attorney, you're supposed to stop
8        and turn it back over to the attorney, not keep it,
9        and especially mark it and introduce it as evidence
10        in the case.
11             MR. WEINBERG:  Well, that work product, you
12        waived.  You should have turned it over back when
13        Mr. Young was deposed in -- in 1999.
14             MR. DANDAR:  I don't keep copies of e-mails.
15        And Mr. Young said he erased his hard drive in '98
16        so certainly couldn't produce it.
17             MR. WEINBERG:  No, but you can't call it work
18        product.
19             THE COURT:  That's true.
20             MR. DANDAR:  What's true --
21             THE COURT:  But in any --
22             MR. DANDAR:  -- Judge?
23             THE COURT:  Well, what's true is that if you
24        were asked to produce everything you had that you
25        had sent to an expert, you had identified Mr. Young



 

41
1        as an expert.  And had you saved this, then it
2        should have been produced.
3             MR. DANDAR:  If I saved it.  I don't save
4        e-mails.
5             THE COURT:  Well, somebody -- somehow or
6        another they got it.  So I don't know how they got
7        it.
8             MR. DANDAR:  But the fact --
9             THE COURT:  But they didn't do it -- they got
10        it apparently from Mr. Keane, who was appointed by
11        the court.  And now I've told Mr. Keane that he is
12        to stop producing anything that has your name on it,
13        from you or to you.  Not -- I mean, he's got a lot
14        of these postings.  You know, these postings --
15             MR. WEINBERG:  Yeah.
16             THE COURT:  -- all -- whatever.  I said I
17        didn't care about any of those postings.
18             MR. WEINBERG:  I don't care about postings
19        either.
20             THE COURT:  Right.
21             MR. WEINBERG:  But --
22             THE COURT:  And I'm not saying I'm not going to
23        turn them all over.  What I'm saying is I asked him
24        not to turn them over until I had a chance to look
25        at them.



 

42
1             MR. WEINBERG:  Right.  And that's fine with us.
2        But our position is we should get it.
3             Now, one other point.  I had handed -- I think
4        you have this, but I've handed this up, which was
5        the letter that Mr. Dandar sent to Mr. Keane, copied
6        to me and Mr. Moxon just 10 days ago.  And this is
7        the letter where he instructs Mr. Keane to provide
8        copies, when he's going through these videos of the
9        Lisa McPherson Trust, which is what he's been doing,
10        to provide all the videos of Ken Dandar.
11             So you know, I mean, he can now say that --
12        that he doesn't understand how Mr. Keane would be
13        turning over videos of Ken Dandar, but -- but he
14        asked Mr. Keane to do this.
15             THE COURT:  I -- I can see that.
16             Again, I -- I am concerned, as any judge would
17        be concerned who still has a trial date that is set,
18        when I don't know what's being turned over from a
19        lawyer.  And the thing that I saw this morning, yes,
20        perhaps he's a listed witness and perhaps that's one
21        of those things that you should have gotten.  Well,
22        I don't know what's in all these other things.
23             MR. WEINBERG:  I don't have a problem with you
24        looking -- I mean, I just want to make sure that, A,
25        the record is clear that this isn't something that



 

43
1        Mr. Keane just invented out of the blue --
2             THE COURT:  Mr. Keane did not invent this out
3        of the blue.  I never thought he had.
4             MR. WEINBERG:  I know.
5             THE COURT:  I thought, for example, that he
6        would probably have been making copies of anything
7        he was turning over.  And yet what he indicated is
8        that it was ordered to be turned over.  And I think
9        he's probably right.
10             And he says that he has extended to Mr. Dandar
11        and to the church to come -- if it's not privileged,
12        he's going to turn it over.  If he doesn't, he's not
13        going to make copies of thousand and thousands of
14        documents to give to both sides.  So it's come see
15        if you want it.  If you want it --
16             MR. WEINBERG:  And if --
17             THE COURT:  -- I'll make you a copy of it.
18             So you're going to have to go do that.
19             Now, he said he understood since these were at
20        issue, he went ahead and made copies, so --
21             MR. WEINBERG:  And did -- I'm sorry, your
22        Honor.  If the videos aren't privileged -- I mean, I
23        don't know what's on the videos either.  But it's
24        curious that Mark Bunker, who is not a trial
25        consultant or an employee of Mr. Dandar, would have



 

44
1        video of Mr. Dandar wherever it is at the LMT.  You
2        know, I can't remember what you said -- I don't
3        think you even said what the -- what the videos of
4        Mr. Dandar were.
5             THE COURT:  No, I didn't.
6             MR. WEINBERG:  But to the extent that those
7        videos indicate that Mr. Dandar was doing that which
8        he testified under oath that he wasn't doing, then,
9        you know, I think that they're very relevant.
10             THE COURT:  I think most of them were -- well,
11        we'll go through those in a minute.  But I think
12        most of them were -- were Lisa McPherson vigils,
13        slash, pickets, whatever.
14             MR. WEINBERG:  Well, if he was picketing -- if
15        there were pictures of him picketing, that would
16        obviously be, given his testimony, very relevant.
17             MR. DANDAR:  I'd love to see it too, because I
18        know they were just vigils.
19             THE COURT:  The truth of the matter is,
20        Mr. Dandar -- the truth of the matter is, a lawyer
21        for the estate of Lisa McPherson ought not have been
22        to -- been at anything that could have even closely
23        been called a picket.  You like to say they're a
24        vigil.
25             MR. DANDAR:  They are.



 

45
1             THE COURT:  There are plenty of other people in
2        this courtroom who have called them pickets.  As a
3        lawyer, I would expect you to stay away from
4        something that might later be called a picket where
5        a lawyer is present.  It is in very poor taste.
6             So there you have it.
7             MR. DANDAR:  All right.
8             THE COURT:  Now you have this.  If you have any
9        objection to them using any of it, you better read
10        these tonight.  You know, you all send me home with
11        stacks and stacks and stacks of stuff to read that I
12        read until all hours of the morning.  So you've got
13        until tomorrow morning to tell them what you object
14        to their using out of this, and to tell me.
15        Otherwise they've got it, you've got it, I've got
16        it, they can use it, you're on notice of it, and
17        they'll use it wherever they think it has relevance.
18             If you have an objection to it, let me know.
19        We'll deal with it.  If I think that they shouldn't
20        have it, I'll ask for it back.  That's the best I
21        can do.
22             MR. WEINBERG:  It's not inappropriate for me to
23        review them as well, tonight.
24             THE COURT:  Oh, absolutely not.
25             MR. WEINBERG:  All right.  I just wanted to



 

46
1        make sure.  Because I have not looked at them.
2             THE COURT:  No.  You know, I just hope, as an
3        officer of the court, if you start to read something
4        that looks like it has to do with just the Lisa
5        McPherson wrongful death case and it's talking about
6        his theory and how he plans to prove something --
7             MR. WEINBERG:  Well, if it's an e-mail to
8        Teresa Summers or something like that, you know,
9        who's a witness in the case, and he's already
10        testified that there was no such communication, then
11        I would --
12             THE COURT:  If it's an e-mail to one of his
13        consultants I would hope that you would put it down
14        until such time as I have a chance to tell you
15        whether you can have it or not.
16             MR. WEINBERG:  Right.  Okay.
17             THE COURT:  Now, then, I suppose since we've
18        talked about these things --
19             Madam Clerk, I'm going to make this an exhibit.
20        This is not an exhibit to -- this really isn't even
21        a part of this hearing.  Well, I suppose it could
22        be.
23             MR. WEINBERG:  I'll just make it a court
24        exhibit, you know, like you've been doing.
25             THE COURT:  All right.  I'm going to make this



 

47
1        letter from Dandar and Dandar to Mr. Keane and this
2        letter from Mr. Moxon to Mr. Keane a court's
3        exhibit.
4             I'm going to eventually give you, Madam Clerk,
5        a copy of these Text Fragments, that, in the
6        meantime, I'll try to read them tonight.  And I'll
7        keep them until such time as I see if there's any
8        objection, okay?
9             MR. DANDAR:  Yes.
10             THE COURT:  This other packet -- I don't even
11        know what it is, but I will look through it too.  If
12        I have the time.  You know, there are just so many
13        hours in the day.  And if I have the time I'll look
14        through it.  If I won't -- don't, I'll look through
15        whatever it is you ask me to look through tomorrow
16        morning.
17             Now, this latest -- this is -- the latest thing
18        that has been provided to me is an order by Judge
19        Quesada, dated November 20th of 2000.  If you tell
20        me that there's some later order by Judge Beach, you
21        better get it and you better provide it to me.
22             MR. DANDAR:  I will.
23             THE COURT:  Madam Clerk, this is another part
24        of the court's exhibit.  Otherwise I will assume
25        that that is the order, the latest order, the one



 

48
1        that we're dealing with.  I don't want either side
2        suggesting to Mr. Keane anybody else that they think
3        perhaps should have been on the list now or later.
4        Everybody understand that?
5             MR. DANDAR:  Yes.
6             MR. WEINBERG:  Yes, your Honor.
7             THE COURT:  If there's going to be anybody else
8        requested to Mr. Keane by anybody that you all think
9        might be a witness, you ask me and I'll tell
10        Mr. Keane whether that's appropriate.
11             Did I give you this, Madam Clerk?  I think I
12        did.  Did I give you that?
13             MR. WEINBERG:  Do you want the orders that led
14        up to that last order or not?
15             THE COURT:  No.  I really think the latest
16        order -- because I remember they kept getting
17        changed a little bit.
18             MR. WEINBERG:  All right.  And I have copies of
19        them if you want.
20             THE COURT:  Okay.  Well, maybe go ahead and put
21        them all in.
22             MR. WEINBERG:  This is May 15th, 2000 Judge
23        Moody order, and this is a July 18th, 2000 Judge
24        Moody order.
25             THE COURT:  I think one of the things that



 

49
1        concerns me, one of the things that I saw happening
2        in this case, is that I would see --
3             MR. WEINBERG:  Those are the other two that
4        lead up to the last -- the one on top was the
5        earliest, I think.
6             THE COURT:  I'm just going to have the clerk
7        put them in order.
8             MR. WEINBERG:  Okay.
9             THE COURT:  Put them in chronological order.
10             What you can't do is make somebody a witness by
11        adding them to your witness list.  Both sides
12        understand that?
13             MR. DANDAR:  Yes.
14             THE COURT:  You can't just say, "Gee, I wish --
15        you know, this person isn't really a witness, and if
16        they were a witness, they'd be a witness for the
17        other side, but maybe I can get some information
18        here by adding them to my witness list, and I think
19        I'll do that, and then tell Mr. Keane to give me
20        that information."  Don't do it.  That isn't fair.
21        That isn't what this was all meant to be.
22             Okay.  Now, on these videos, I've gone
23        through -- Mr. Keane tells me he's going to give me
24        an amended list, because they're not all here.  He
25        found 39 more.



 

50
1             I have gone through this document until some
2        ungodly hour this morning.  I have no idea how many
3        pages this is.  25, maybe?  I'm just guessing -- and
4        wrote down "yes" or "no" as far as what should be
5        produced based on what I presume the order was.  And
6        when in doubt, I left it blank.  And that's what I
7        spoke with the lawyers about, including counsel for
8        LMT and counsel -- it was the same counsel -- for
9        the videographer.  His name is --
10             MR. WEINBERG:  Mr. Bunker.
11             THE COURT:  Mr. Bunker.  And so he was present
12        as well.  I think he was.
13             And I filled in all these blanks.  So I have
14        all these blanks filled in.
15             And Mr. Dandar, that was when we first began.
16        He said he didn't know that any video was going to
17        be produced that he was in.  And now, Mr. Dandar, I
18        see your letter which tells me that clearly isn't
19        true.
20             MR. DANDAR:  No.  Judge, I asked him to give me
21        a copy of any video that I'm in.  I didn't ask him
22        to send it to the defense.  I mean, I don't have
23        possession of these videos.  I don't know what the
24        LMT has.  So that's why I asked Mr. Keane to send me
25        a video if I'm in -- if it's a video of me or of my



 

51
1        clients.
2             THE COURT:  Well, I thought the court had given
3        him those videos, and the court had said -- what you
4        just talked -- you know --
5             MR. WEINBERG:  Well, that doesn't make any
6        sense --
7             THE COURT:  No, it doesn't make a bit of sense.
8             MR. WEINBERG:  -- to send him also copies of
9        Teresa Summers, Jesse Prince and, you know, four
10        others witnesses so you were going to get copies of
11        those and we weren't going to get them.
12             MR. DANDAR:  No.  Oh.  Let me make it very
13        clear.  I'm asking -- that letter says, "Send me the
14        copy of all the videos of all these people,
15        including myself."  I expect, as the court orders in
16        writing say, they're only entitled to get witnesses.
17        That's all they're entitled to.
18             MR. WEINBERG:  Well --
19             MR. DANDAR:  I'm not a witness, but I wanted
20        Mr. --
21             THE COURT:  Oh, you are a witness to the
22        counterclaim.  Don't kid yourself.  You're a major
23        witness.  And that's why I indicated to you you
24        could not be a lawyer on the counterclaim.  You are
25        a major witness in the counterclaim, Mr. Dandar.



 

52
1        And that's what most of this is all about.  So you
2        know, quite frankly, to suggest that you're not a
3        witness is amazing to me.  You are not a witness, it
4        is true, in the wrongful death case.  You are a
5        major witness in the counterclaim.
6             MR. DANDAR:  Okay.  All right.
7             THE COURT:  So -- and for some of these things,
8        obviously, they weren't -- it wasn't distinguished
9        as to whether or not it had to do with the wrongful
10        death or whether it had to do with the counterclaim.
11             So I'm going to look through here and have you
12        tell me, Mr. Dandar, on any of these that I've got,
13        that I'm going to produce where you're in them,
14        which I believe is every one that you were in,
15        because you were on this list that Mr. Keane had
16        attached, which I assumed everybody had agreed to
17        and which he says he thought everybody did agree to.
18             And I want you to go back to your office
19        tonight and I want you to see whether or not you
20        have that letter.
21             MR. DANDAR:  Yes.  We -- we are -- we called
22        the office to look for it right now, but I will go
23        back and make sure.
24             THE COURT:  All right.  I hate to take the time
25        to do this, but I just -- if I don't, it'll just be



 

53
1        one more thing piled on top of another thing.  So
2        I'm going to do it and I'm going to do it now.
3             Ms. Giardini, by the way, is one of the ones
4        whose videotapes you asked for, and she is not
5        listed as a witness.
6             MR. DANDAR:  That's right.  I did.
7             MR. WEINBERG:  I think she's on Mr. Dandar's
8        witness list.
9             THE COURT:  She is not on Exhibit A.
10             MR. WEINBERG:  No, she's not --
11             THE COURT:  The one that you agreed to.
12             MR. WEINBERG:  Right, but I mean in the letter,
13        he asked Mr. Keane to send him a copy of all the
14        videos on her.
15             THE COURT:  I have already told him, and I
16        presume that you all know as well, isn't anybody
17        going to get any of these videos unless I release
18        them.
19             MR. WEINBERG:  We absolutely understand that.
20             THE COURT:  So I don't care what he's asked for
21        and I don't care what you all have asked for.  I'm
22        going to tell you what you're going to get --
23             And Mr. Dandar, this is one of those other
24        things.  I'm going to -- Ms. Giardini's videos --
25        isn't a witness listed on this exhibit list.



 

54
1        Therefore I did not order any videos that had her in
2        it released.
3             MR. DANDAR:  That's fine.
4             THE COURT:  So you don't get them.
5             MR. DANDAR:  That's fine.  That's fine, Judge.
6             THE COURT:  Because I'm working -- and please
7        understand this, people -- I am working off this
8        list that Michael Keane says you all agreed to.  So
9        that's the list.  Not some -- I don't want to hear
10        later, "Oh, well, look, they're on this witness list
11        because that's what Mr. Keane said."  There was a
12        huge bunch of witnesses.  You all culled it down and
13        came up with this, and that's the list I'm operating
14        under.  Which, of course, this list includes you,
15        Mr. Dandar, and your brother and your investigator.
16             I'm looking for a second time because I don't
17        want to miss anything here.
18             All I'm looking for are videos now --
19             I made a decision on every one of these, and
20        I'm going -- and every one that had you in it,
21        Mr. Dandar, I ordered turned over, I think.  So I'm
22        going to tell you what those are so you can tell me
23        if you have an objection.  Like I said, I thought
24        there were about five.  We'll see how close I was.
25             I guess what you want me to do, probably, based



 

55
1        on some of what we talked about in chambers, is --
2        is to have Mr. Keane reproduce, if he can, those
3        which I have ordered released.
4             MR. WEINBERG:  Yes.
5             THE COURT:  And with this little synopsis --
6        because I'm looking at like eight in a row, news
7        clips, you know, Channel 13 news clip --
8             MR. WEINBERG:  Right.
9             THE COURT:  -- Channel 13 news clip; ABC, 28 --
10             MR. WEINBERG:  And I suspect we don't want any
11        of those copied, but if you are able to do a
12        redacted list that takes out what you don't want us
13        to look at --
14             THE COURT:  Right.
15             MR. WEINBERG:  -- that would helpful -- that
16        would be helpful to --
17             THE COURT:  Well, I'm hoping that this is on a
18        computer and he knows how to do that --
19             MR. WEINBERG:  I think it is.
20             THE COURT:  -- and he would be able to do it.
21        I have no clue.
22             Okay.  Now here is the first one.  And it is
23        box 2, tape 6, December, 1999, Clearwater, Florida.
24        Synopsis -- under Synopsis -- by the way,
25        Clearwater, Florida, is the locale.  And it's got



 

56
1        one, two, three, five columns.  First column is tape
2        number.  Second column is time frame.  Third column
3        locale.  Fourth column, synopsis.  And then fifth
4        column, people identified in footage.
5             This is, again, box 2 tape, 6 December, 1999,
6        Clearwater, Florida.  The synopsis says, "Cult
7        Workshop."  And here's who's identified.  People
8        identified in footage:  Gabe Cazares, Grady Ward,
9        Ken Dandar, Jesse Prince, Steve Hassan, Jeff
10        Jacobsen, Gerry Armstrong, Peter Alexander, David
11        Cecere, Deana Holmes, Michael Garko, Velma Cazares,
12        Brian Haney, Ed Lottick and Stacy and Jay Brooks.
13             I don't know who Jay Brooks is, but --
14             THE WITNESS:  That's her mother.
15             THE COURT:  And Jay Brooks -- now there are a
16        lot of people who are witnesses.  I had "release" on
17        it.
18             MR. DANDAR:  This is a -- as I remember, was a
19        workshop that was private and was not open to the
20        public.  Scientology was having a workshop right
21        next door.  And you know, that would be a workshop
22        that remained private.  And I don't think the
23        defense should have that.
24             THE COURT:  Well, some judge apparently said
25        that they were entitled to statements of any



 

57
1        witnesses.  And so these are witnesses.  There are a
2        lot of witnesses in there.
3             The only question is as to whether or not --
4             I'll tell you what.  I'll view this to see what
5        it is that you would have said in there.
6             But -- but the truth of the matter is -- is
7        that -- I don't know what you're doing there, but --
8             MR. WEINBERG:  And just for the record, there's
9        obviously no privilege.
10             THE COURT:  No.  There could be no privilege.
11             MR. DANDAR:  I believe the group -- the group
12        could have a privacy privilege, Judge.
13             THE COURT:  I'm -- we're past that.  A judge
14        has ordered it released.
15             MR. DANDAR:  No, no.  The witness statements, I
16        understand.  I understand that.
17             THE COURT:  Okay.  Well, these are statements
18        of these witnesses.  Presumably.
19             MR. DANDAR:  And I will find Judge Beach's
20        order, which I believe limits it to discussing the
21        Lisa McPherson case.
22             THE COURT:  Well, if you can find that, then
23        there's probably a lot of these that I'm going to
24        release, that, you know, wouldn't be relevant.
25             I think you all decided that any of this stuff



 

58
1        that dealt with the -- the trial in front of Judge
2        Penick, you did not want, right?
3             MR. WEINBERG:  We don't want that.
4             THE COURT:  Okay.
5             MR. WEINBERG:  Any --
6             THE COURT:  Here's one, Lisa McPherson Memorial
7        picket in front of the Ft. Harrison.  You see,
8        here's a general master.  You see what he's calling
9        this?  A memorial picket.
10             MR. DANDAR:  It may in fact be a picket.  There
11        was a picket in the daytime.
12             THE COURT:  Well, if it is, it's got Mr. Dandar
13        in it.
14             MR. DANDAR:  Well, that's --
15             THE COURT:  So the deal is -- like I told you,
16        Mr. Dandar, it was poor judgment.  So I don't know
17        what in the world -- why you wouldn't -- why you
18        would have an objection to that.  That's a picket.
19        A picket is done out in the community so people can
20        see you.
21             MR. DANDAR:  I have no --
22             THE COURT:  If it's a --
23             MR. DANDAR:  No objection.
24             THE COURT:  All right.  Then that one will be
25        turned over.



 

59
1             MR. DANDAR:  What box and tape number, please?
2             THE COURT:  Box 2, tape 12.  It says December,
3        2000, Clearwater, Florida.  The synopsis, "Lisa
4        McPherson Memorial Picket in front of the Ft.
5        Harrison."  And it's got more people in it than you
6        can shake a stick at, including you, including
7        Mr. Garko, John Merrett, Patricia Greenway, Peter
8        Alexander, on and on.  Arnie Lerma, Robert Minton,
9        Ben Shaw, Frank Oliver, Stacy Brooks, Jesse Prince,
10        Jeff Jacobsen, Dell Liebreich, Ann Carlson, Lee
11        Skelton, Rod Keller -- there's a whole bunch that I
12        haven't read.  I mean, there's just a lot of people.
13             But pickets, I'm turning over, people who
14        picket want people to see them.  So they can't very
15        well complain now.
16             Here is one that is styled box 2, tape 16,
17        unidentified.  That's the time frame.  Clearwater,
18        Florida.  Synopsis, "Celebrating the purchase of LMT
19        building; picketing."  And it's got the semicolon in
20        between "building" and "picketing."
21             Robert Minton, Scott Grouer, Ken Dandar,
22        Michael Garko, Stacy Brooks, Jesse Prince, Dee
23        Phillips, Ray Emmons, Peter Alexander, Patricia
24        Greenway, Grady Ward, Deneen Phillips, Duncan
25        Pierce, Mike Rinder -- I don't know whether that's



 

60
1        the Mike Rinder that we've referred to here, because
2        it's R-e-n-d-e-r, so -- and Paul Kellerhals.
3             MR. DANDAR:  I think they were outside.
4             THE COURT:  Okay.  So you -- you have no
5        problem with that.
6             MR. DANDAR:  No problem.
7             THE COURT:  All right.
8             MR. DANDAR:  I'm sorry.  Would you repeat the
9        tape and box number?
10             MR. WEINBERG:  Box 2 --
11             THE COURT:  -- tape 16.
12             MR. DANDAR:  Thank you.
13             THE COURT:  Sir, if you want to get off the
14        stand while we're just fooling with this, you're
15        welcome to.  You don't have to sit there.  You can
16        if you want to but you don't have to.
17             THE WITNESS:  Well, I'm settled now, your
18        Honor.
19             THE COURT:  Okay.  You --
20             MR. WEINBERG:  As you're going through that
21        list, we're not interested in any of those, whether
22        it's Judge Penick -- or I forget all the other
23        judges.  We're not interested in any of those --
24             THE COURT:  All I'm trying to do is in my list
25        release or not.  So the only ones --



 

61
1             MR. WEINBERG:  Okay.
2             THE COURT:  So if I put "release" --
3             MR. WEINBERG:  Just leave it the way it is.
4             THE COURT:  Right.
5             MR. WEINBERG:  If we get --
6             THE COURT:  There are a few I had blank you and
7        I had a chance to talk about, and you and I and
8        Mr. Dandar and --
9             MR. WEINBERG:  Mr. McGowan.
10             THE COURT:  -- and Mr. McGowan.  But the ones
11        that I said "release --"
12             MR. WEINBERG:  Okay.
13             THE COURT:  I'll have them give them to you.
14             I don't remember what we decided to do with
15        this interview with former Clearwater Police
16        lieutenant Ray Emmons.  I have a question mark.  Did
17        we decide a question mark -- I didn't put question
18        marks when I went through these.  So what did we
19        decide on these?
20             MR. DANDAR:  He's not a testifying witness.  He
21        was a private investigator for LMT, and sometimes he
22        served process for me.  And I'm sure that has to do
23        with his investigation of Scientology back in the
24        '80s.  They want that, they can have it.
25             MR. WEINBERG:  Okay.



 

62
1             THE COURT:  You want it?
2             MR. WEINBERG:  Yes, your Honor.
3             MR. FUGATE:  I think it was included in an
4        LMT-produced video about the Clearwater Police
5        Department, if that's the one I'm thinking it is,
6        Judge.
7             THE COURT:  Okay.
8             Oh, here's one I almost missed it.  This is
9        scenes from -- this is box 2, tape 52, which appears
10        to be a very -- there's a lot of stuff going on in
11        this.  It says, "Scenes from outside the courtroom
12        in the Lisa McPherson probate hearing," and, "Scenes
13        from LMT," and, "Picketing the Church of
14        Scientology."  That's got Patricia Greenway, Robert
15        Minton, Peter Alexander, Grady Ward, Paul
16        Kellerhals, Stacy Brooks, Jesse Prince, Al Butnor,
17        Al Rosen, Marty Rathbun and Ken Dandar.
18             Any objection?
19             MR. DANDAR:  No objection.
20             THE COURT:  Okay.  The next one, same box, same
21        tape, date February, 2000, Clearwater, Florida, "In
22        and around courthouse before and after the TRO
23        hearing."  Then back to LMT for more picketing.
24        Robert Minton, Stacy Brooks, David Cecere, Jesse
25        Prince, Mike Rinder, Wally Pope, Bruce Howie, Ken



 

63
1        Dandar, Michael Garko, Dennis DeVlaming, Patricia
2        Greenway and on and on.
3             Any objection?
4             MR. DANDAR:  No objection.
5             THE COURT:  Okay.
6             MR. DANDAR:  What tape number is that?
7             THE COURT:  Tape 52, box 2.  It's the same tape
8        as the other one.
9             MR. DANDAR:  Oh.
10             THE COURT:  It's all on that one tape.
11             MR. DANDAR:  All right.
12             THE COURT:  Okay.  Box 2, tape 54.  Clearwater,
13        Florida, April, 2000, "Outside courthouse after
14        hearing before Judge Schaeffer".  Then back to LMT
15        for picketing."  That must have been the criminal
16        case.
17             MR. WEINBERG:  April, 2000 sounds right.
18             THE COURT:  Okay.  Patricia Greenway, Mike
19        Rinder.  Must be Mike Rinder.  It's got R-e-n-d-e-r,
20        but it must --
21             MR. WEINBERG:  It's actually "I", but it's --
22             THE COURT:  Yeah.
23             Patricia Greenway, Mike Rinder, Richard Howd,
24        Ken Dandar, Michael Dandar, Ray Emmons, Stacy
25        Brooks.



 

64
1             Any objection?
2             MR. DANDAR:  No objection.
3             THE COURT:  All right.  All of those, by the
4        way, I had "release" On them.
5             Here's another one, January, 2000, "Inside LMT
6        and picketing the Church of Scientology."  Antonio
7        Avila, Phillip Deller, Patricia Greenway, Robert
8        Minton, Grady Ward, David Cecere, Peter Alexander,
9        Paul Kellerhals, Stacy Brooks, Al Butnor, Jesse
10        Prince, Ken Dandar and Michael Garko.
11             MR. DANDAR:  No objection.
12             THE COURT:  All right.
13             MR. DANDAR:  Tape number?
14             THE COURT:  Box 2, tape 55.  Date, January,
15        2000, Clearwater, Florida.
16             Oh, this goes on and on and on.
17             All right.  Here we have one, Clearwater,
18        Florida.  This is a transit board hearing on
19        ante-Church of Scientology ads on the bus.  That's
20        advertisements.
21             MR. DANDAR:  No objection.
22             MR. WEINBERG:  You had already said -- we had
23        already talked about that back there.
24             THE COURT:  All right.
25             MR. WEINBERG:  Turning that over.



 

65
1             MR. DANDAR:  What tape number is that?
2             THE COURT:  Box 2, tape 61.
3             MR. DANDAR:  And I should point out that tape
4        has nothing to do with the LMT or this case.
5             THE COURT:  That is true.  However, those are
6        witnesses, and I take it those are statements of
7        witnesses.
8             MR. DANDAR:  That's fine.
9             THE COURT:  Okay.  Here is one, box 2, tape 71,
10        "Early 2001, Clearwater, Florida.  Raw unedited
11        footage of the LMT offices and outside the Ft.
12        Harrison."  Robert Minton, Stacy Brooks, John -- I
13        think it's supposed to be Merrett -- Anita -- I'm
14        not sure.  It's M-e-r-r-i-r-r.  I don't know who
15        that is, but it might be -- supposed to be Merrett.
16        And Anita Gogola, Randy Ennerson, Heather Bennett,
17        Jesse Prince, Tory Bezazian, Ken Dandar, Michael
18        Garko, Bob Peterson, Arnie Lerma, Ingrid Wagner, Dee
19        Phillips, Jeff Jacobsen, Greg and Debra Barnes.
20             MR. DANDAR:  I'd like to see that.  I'd like to
21        see what -- it says, "Raw LMT offices."  That's not
22        an outside picket.
23             MR. WEINBERG:  Well, it says, "Outside the Ft.
24        Harrison."
25             THE COURT:  "Outside the Ft. Harrison."



 

66
1             So I'll view it and I'll see what it is.
2             I think we're past my guess at five.
3             Who's Paul Kellerhals?
4             MR. WEINBERG:  He's the head of security --
5             THE COURT:  Security at the church.
6             MR. WEINBERG:  Security at the church.
7             MR. DANDAR:  Stacy's former husband.  Stacy
8        Brooks' former husband.
9             MR. WEINBERG:  As irrelevant as that is.
10             MR. DANDAR:  That's who he is.
11             THE COURT:  Well, here's one with Mary Jo
12        Melone, whom I see we welcome welcomed back to the
13        St. Pete Times today.  She's been ill, as I recall.
14        Anyway, this has Mr. Dandar -- says, "Footage of
15        panel discussions, interviews and picketing during
16        the week of the Lisa McPherson Memorial Picket."
17             MR. DANDAR:  No objection.
18             THE COURT:  Okay.
19             MR. WEINBERG:  And just for the record, that
20        was box what?
21             THE COURT:  Box 2, tape 73.  It says,
22        "December, '99."
23             MR. DANDAR:  Does that say Mary J. Melone was
24        there?
25             THE COURT:  Well, her name -- her face



 

67
1        apparently is somebody they identified in the
2        footage.
3             MR. DANDAR:  Okay.
4             THE COURT:  Mary Jo Melone.
5             MR. DANDAR:  Melone, yes.
6             THE COURT:  Also Dell Liebreich, Ken Dandar,
7        Michael Garko -- lots of people.  I mean, this is
8        another one of those great big boxes with lots of
9        folks.
10             MR. DANDAR:  All right.
11             THE COURT:  Here's one with Mr. Moxon in it.
12        And Mr. Dandar.
13             Okay.  Box 2, tape 102, "Summer, 2000,
14        Clearwater, Florida.  Footage from Ursula Caberta's
15        visit to Clearwater for her press conference."  It's
16        got Ursula Caberta, Al Butnar, Robert Minton, Stacy
17        Brooks, John Merrett, Gary Armstrong, Mary Demoss,
18        Kendrick Moxon, Grady Ward, Ken Dandar, Michael
19        Garko, Ray Emmons, Karen Case and Jesse Prince.
20             MR. DANDAR:  No objection.
21             THE COURT:  All right.  Here's another one with
22        Mr. Rinder and others.  That's to be released.
23             But I don't see -- believe it or not, I'm down
24        to the last three pages.
25             Okay.  Box 2, tape 128, December, 2000,



 

68
1        Clearwater, Florida.  "Footage shot in and around
2        LMT and the Ft. Harrison during the Lisa McPherson
3        Memorial Picket."  Whole slew of people.
4        Mr. Dandar, you're one of them.
5             MR. DANDAR:  Okay.  No objection.
6             THE COURT:  All right.  I believe that's it.
7        As I said, there are approximately one, two,
8        three --
9             MR. WEINBERG:  That's 12.
10             THE COURT:  About nine per page, and there's
11        probably on average -- and there's probably 25 pages
12        here.  They're not numbered.  So there's a lot of
13        tapes.
14             Those are the ones that you appeared in,
15        Mr. Dandar.  I believe there's only one or two that
16        you had any objection to.
17             MR. DANDAR:  Yes.
18             THE COURT:  And I indicated I would view them.
19             MR. DANDAR:  All right.
20             MR. WEINBERG:  There's only one, I think.  Oh,
21        two.  Was the first one of them -- there was a first
22        one, which was box 2, tape 6, December of '99, and
23        then there was a second -- then the other one was
24        box 2, tape 71.
25             THE COURT:  Right.  And I've got a copy others



 

69
1        here that, on my own, I asked to view, because I
2        didn't know -- one thing or another -- I think we
3        did them during the discussion we had in chambers.
4        Frankly, I don't think we had any disagreement in
5        chambers --
6             MR. WEINBERG:  No, we didn't.
7             THE COURT:  -- as to whether to release or not.
8             MR. WEINBERG:  We didn't have any argument, no.
9             THE COURT:  So eventually I'm going to get this
10        with an order -- when I say eventually, I have to
11        wait, now.  Mr. Keane says he's going to get me a
12        substitute.  I'll try to put together an order
13        telling him that these can be released, see if he
14        can put the ones that are going to be released in a
15        format so that you all can see them, and --
16             MR. WEINBERG:  And then we can communicate with
17        him after we see your list and say which ones we
18        want copied.
19             THE COURT:  Yes.
20             MR. WEINBERG:  And we can do that directly with
21        him.
22             THE COURT:  With him.
23             As far as I'm concerned, this is a situation
24        where I'm going to put out a list or he's going put
25        out a list of all the ones I've ordered to be



 

70
1        released.
2             MR. WEINBERG:  Okay.
3             THE COURT:  If you want them all, you can get
4        them all.  If you only want two -- Mr. Dandar, the
5        same is true for you.  If you want them all, you can
6        get them all.  If you want one or two of them, you
7        can get what you want.
8             And I don't know how that works.  I don't know
9        who's paying.  I don't think I want to know.
10             But in other words, you don't have -- just
11        because I said, "Release them," doesn't mean that
12        you have to copy them.
13             MR. WEINBERG:  No.  We understand that.
14             And I -- is this something that we will be able
15        to have access to during our break?  I mean, when I
16        say break, during the two weeks break that you're
17        going to be gone?
18             THE COURT:  If I can get it done.  I'm going to
19        try real hard --
20             MR. WEINBERG:  All right.
21             THE COURT:  -- okay?
22             Okay.  Go ahead and continue.
23        A    I hadn't quite finished answering the last
24   question.
25



 

71
1   BY MR. DANDAR:
2        Q    Do you remember what it was?
3        A    Yes.  The last question was what were my
4   responsibilities as deputy inspector general --
5        Q    Yes?
6        A    -- at RTC.
7             And I mentioned we used to do the technology side
8   of Scientology.
9             Then there was a separate area, areas that I also
10   had responsibility for.  And those were the legal
11   intelligence and PR activities of OSA, which is a separate
12   network in Scientology.  And I had the responsibility of
13   also registering, getting trademarks registered in the
14   different countries of the world where Scientology was --
15   had activity.
16        Q    Okay.  So what did you have to do with legal and
17   intelligence departments of OSA?
18        A    In the -- in the beginning, not very much, because
19   it was nothing that I really knew anything about.  This was
20   something that I learned as part of this -- this job
21   activity.  So I would -- I was privy to the activities of
22   those areas as I learned the strategies for those areas.
23        Q    Would you receive reports from OSA?
24        A    Yes.  I would receive a report.  Every
25   executive -- well, not every -- I shouldn't say every



 

72
1   executive, but the top executives in Scientology were kept
2   abreast of the different operations in intelligence, legal
3   and PR, by -- at the end of the night -- just before the end
4   of the night, I would receive an envelope that said "Eyes
5   only."  And inside the envelope there would be typewritten
6   pages, maybe seven or eight typewritten pages, that gave a
7   summary of the different operations that legal, PR and
8   intelligence were involved in.  And after reading that
9   information, it was shred -- something that had to be
10   shredded instantly.
11        Q    It wasn't stored somewhere?
12        A    No.
13        Q    When you say legal operations, what are you
14   talking about?
15        A    Legal cases.
16             THE COURT:  Did you get this every day, you
17        say?
18             THE WITNESS:  Yes.  Every day we get --
19             THE COURT:  How -- in those days -- I don't
20        know.  There was no e-mail.  How did you get it?
21             THE WITNESS:  Well, your Honor, this isn't
22        information that -- in an envelope, typed on,
23        obviously, a --
24             THE COURT:  I mean, if you're in Los Angeles,
25        and Flag down here in Clearwater wants to send you



 

73
1        something at the end of the day, how did they get it
2        from Clearwater to you?
3             THE WITNESS:  Well, your Honor, no one from
4        Clearwater would have sent me anything, because
5        there's a chain of command.  There are channels.  In
6        other words, executives in Scientology aren't
7        accessible to staff members of lower organizations
8        or things like this.  You have to go through a chain
9        of command in order to have correspondence with an
10        executive, or be asking for a specific privilege
11        from that executive, after having gone through the
12        channels.
13             THE COURT:  Okay.  But somebody -- if -- you
14        got seven or eight pages from somebody --
15             THE WITNESS:  Oh, yeah.  This was brought --
16        brought around from a person in the intelligence
17        area, and they would simply come in, drop the
18        envelope on the desk and leave.
19             THE COURT:  Okay.  Whoever it is that would
20        bring that envelope to you, from wherever it is, how
21        was it that they got the information, for example,
22        from Flag on the day's activities?
23             This is really a very simple question.  This
24        is:  Was it faxed?  Was it gotten there by
25        horseback?  I mean, how did they get it from Flag in



 

74
1        Clearwater up the line to whoever it is that dropped
2        it off on your desk?  Just physically.
3             THE WITNESS:  Well, there could have been
4        several ways that the information could have been
5        passed along.  It could have been passed along from
6        telephonic communications; it could have been passed
7        along via the computer.
8             At that time, when -- the time that I'm
9        speaking about there was no, quote/unquote, real
10        Internet, but Scientology had its own computer
11        messaging systems where we could send messages to
12        each other from Europe or from Florida to Los
13        Angeles.  So that was a way that information would
14        come in as well.
15             THE COURT:  Okay.
16   BY MR. DANDAR:
17        Q    And was OSA part of RTC?
18        A    No.  Not -- not during the time that I was there,
19   OSA was not part of the RTC.  During my time period in OSA,
20   OSA was in a very formative stage of being formed, being --
21   departments figured out, purposes, duties, that kind of
22   thing.
23        Q    Was there any carryover from The Guardian's office
24   to OSA?
25        A    Yes, there was.  The staff -- there were a



 

75
1   carryover of some of the staff and some of the -- and the
2   policies.
3        Q    Now, let's just go back -- you said one of the
4   things you would get daily is a report on legal operations.
5   Is that just in the United States?
6        A    Yes.  Well, predominantly.  But I don't think we
7   had any cases abroad of any real significance outside of the
8   United States during my time period.
9        Q    And when you were a deputy inspector general, who
10   was your senior?
11        A    The inspector general, which is Vicki Aznaran.
12        Q    And who was her senior?
13        A    David Miscavige.
14        Q    And who was his senior?
15        A    L. Ron Hubbard.  Pat Broeker.
16        Q    And when Mr. Hubbard died, who was Mr. Miscavige's
17   senior?
18        A    He had none.
19        Q    And when you were deputy inspector general, you
20   were a member of the Sea Org, correct?
21        A    Correct.
22        Q    Who was the head of the Sea Org?
23        A    The captain of the Sea Org was David Miscavige.
24        Q    Did he have any equal to his rank?
25        A    I'm sure he probably did.



 

76
1        Q    He had other captains?
2        A    Yes.
3        Q    And would they have equal power as David
4   Miscavige?
5        A    No.
6        Q    Why not?
7        A    Well, again, I'll refer to the organizational
8   chart, the command charts, which is an exhibit in this case.
9   You have a -- a kind of pyramid system of organizations as
10   far as seniority, powers -- broad powers and responsibility.
11   And at the top of the chain is RTC, Religious Technology
12   Center.  Below that is CSI, Church of Scientology
13   International, which is the mother church.  And then from
14   there you have like a -- what's called a FOLO, Flag Office
15   Liaison Office, which is supposed to be a management center
16   in the different sectors and countries where Scientology has
17   activity.
18             An example of -- of that would be here in
19   Clearwater.  You have the Ft. Harrison as one -- the Ft.
20   Harrison Building, or the Flag, which is one organization.
21   And separate from Flag you have another organization called
22   the FLB, the Flag Land Base organization, which, during my
23   period of time, concerned itself with the buildings, the
24   maintenance of the buildings, and then also did the
25   missions, where they would pull Sea Org members to send to



 

77
1   other areas, train them on specific orders to go out and
2   accomplish different things in the organizations.
3        Q    While you were in Scientology, could a Sea Org
4   mission go in and take over a completely independent org
5   like the Boston org?
6        A    Well, that -- that was the entire purpose of a
7   mission, to go in an area --
8             Well, that's not entirely true.  There's different
9   types of mission.  You could have a mission that would
10   simply go in there and observe --
11             THE COURT:  His question was, could the Sea Org
12        go in and take over?
13             THE WITNESS:  Yes.
14   BY MR. DANDAR:
15        Q    And what gave it the power to do that?
16        A    The Sea Org is the organization that is
17   responsible ultimately for the success of Scientology.  The
18   persons that are in the Sea Org have dedicated themselves to
19   Scientology for one billion years, and their dedication is
20   to ensure that Scientology carries on and prevails in the
21   society we live in.
22        Q    And you signed a billion-year contract as well,
23   correct?
24        A    Yes.
25        Q    Now, the intelligence operations --



 

78
1             Well, let's go back to legal operations.  Would
2   you receive a report daily of what was going on in each and
3   every case that the Church of Scientology was involved in?
4        A    Pretty much, yes.  If there was activity, if there
5   was courtroom activity that day, or a motion that was being
6   put together or -- or whatever, I'd receive the report about
7   that.
8        Q    So if there was a lawsuit that the Boston org --
9   I'm sorry.  I'm picking on Boston -- the Boston org was a
10   party to and had a lawyer representing them in court, would
11   you receive a daily report on the activity of that lawsuit?
12        A    Yes.  If there was daily activity on that lawsuit,
13   I would certainly receive information about it.
14             MR. WEINBERG:  Your Honor, could we just date
15        from when it started to when it ended, that he was
16        getting this kind of info?
17             THE COURT:  I think he was saying during the
18        whole time that he was deputy inspector general.
19             MR. WEINBERG:  Okay.  And I think he hadn't
20        said when that ended.
21             THE COURT:  Okay.  What was the period of time
22        that you were deputy inspector general?
23             THE WITNESS:  I would say from early 1985 until
24        January, 19, 1987.  '84.  I'd say '84.  Early '84.
25             THE COURT:  '85 -- early '84 to January of '87.



 

79
1             THE WITNESS:  Yes.
2             THE COURT:  Okay.
3   BY MR. DANDAR:
4        Q    Now, when you were deputy inspector general of
5   RTC, was Mr. Miscavige the chairman of the board?
6        A    No.  Mr. Miscavige was the chairman of the board
7   of Author Services.
8        Q    Okay.  Do you know who the chairman of the board
9   of RTC was at the time you were deputy inspector general?
10        A    I later came to find out the chairman of the board
11   of RTC -- it changed a couple of times, to my knowledge, but
12   I think the person who was -- the last person who I knew was
13   actually chairman of the board was David Miscavige.
14        Q    Okay.
15             THE COURT:  Well, I thought -- let me stop you
16        just for a minute here.  I thought you indicated
17        that the chain of command was the deputy inspector
18        general, who was you, reported to the inspector
19        general, who was Vicki Aznaran, who reported to
20        David Miscavige.  In what capacity?
21             THE WITNESS:  David Miscavige was the chairman
22        of the board of Author Services.  Author Services
23        was a literary --
24             THE COURT:  Believe me, I know about Author
25        Services.



 

80
1             THE WITNESS:  Okay.  So --
2             THE COURT:  So that -- all I'm trying to find
3        out is the capacity in which David Miscavige was,
4        that Vicki Aznaran reported to, was as chairman of
5        the board of ASI?
6             THE WITNESS:  No.  He was really captain of the
7        Sea Org.
8   BY MR. DANDAR:
9        Q    How could Vicki Aznaran and RTC, a religious
10   organization, have a senior who's a chairman of the board of
11   a for-profit organization?
12        A    Well, that's exactly the point.  Being-senior part
13   and -- and giving orders and things from Miscavige to
14   Aznaran wasn't anything that the general Scientology public
15   would know about.  This was kind of kept secret, in the same
16   way that Scientology staff members or Scientology public
17   members don't realize that Gilman Hot Springs is the
18   location of international management of Scientology; in that
19   same regard they would not know that Miscavige ultimately
20   would be the seniors of a person such as myself, Vicki
21   Aznaran and that kind of thing.
22             Or we couldn't have that -- it couldn't be clear
23   that -- that that was the case because that presented
24   problems with the tax -- we're trying to get tax exempt
25   status -- to have a for-profit corporation running a



 

81
1   nonprofit corporation.
2             But Miscavige was the leader.  Was and is the
3   leader.  I mean, at the even when L. Ron Hubbard was alive,
4   he would do his communications through Miscavige, that would
5   come to us.
6        Q    Okay.  And so was -- was Miscavige, Vicki Aznaran
7   senior -- and I think you already answered -- COB of ASI as
8   captain of the Sea Org?
9        A    As captain of the Sea Org.
10        Q    Now, the intelligence reports that you would get
11   daily, what kind of intelligence reports would you get?
12        A    Ones that I remember specifically at this time had
13   to do with different activities in the Wollersheim case,
14   whether it be Wollersheim 3, 4 or whatever; you know, what
15   was happening with the lawyers, what was overheard, what was
16   planned, what kind of information was coming up during
17   what's called a ODC and CDC.  ODC being overt data
18   collection.  They would collect information about the
19   attorney, his -- you know, his record.  They would do an
20   ODC.  And then a CDC.  And a CDC mainly entailed getting
21   information that is not readily available or is public
22   knowledge, such as personal phone records; a credit report,
23   bank reports, an individual's bank reports, this kind of
24   thing.
25        Q    How did OSA get an opposing counsel's bank



 

82
1   reports?
2        A    Hiring a private investigator.
3        Q    And how did the private investigator get an
4   attorney's private bank records?
5        A    This is something that they were hired to do.  It
6   was -- it was very much shunned that we know specifically
7   how that happened in case it ever went to court or the
8   person was ever caught.  So it was just, "Hey, we need this.
9   We need a credit report on this person.  We need his phone
10   records.  We need to know who he's talking about, who he's
11   talking with," and to do an analysis to find this person's
12   weakness.  What is the Achilles' Heel?  What is going to get
13   this person to stop giving grief to Scientology even if --
14   in a professional capacity as an attorney.
15             And then, you know, pursue those things that will
16   intimidate, harass or discourage.
17        Q    And why -- what gave you, as a member of the
18   Church of Scientology, the authority to do that, under
19   the -- under the rules and regulations or the policies of
20   the Church of Scientology?
21        A    I've seen many exhibits turned into this courtroom
22   concerning policies on intelligence and attitude.  And I
23   guess the overriding factor is this:  Scientology comes
24   first.  Scientology comes before the individual, comes
25   before the individual's family, comes before our current



 

83
1   justice system or whatever laws.  Scientology -- I mean,
2   it's even a high crime to speak at -- in Scientology's laws,
3   it's a high crime to come before a court and give testimony
4   without first Scientology being -- knowing completely what
5   your testimony would be, even if it had nothing to do with
6   Scientology.
7             So they have different rules and a different
8   standard to operate on.  I mean, you know, is it legal?  Is
9   it right?  Those are different matters.  But that's --
10        Q    Well --
11        A    -- the --
12        Q    -- when you were in this position, reading these
13   intelligence reports, do you know that if you got a credit
14   report of anyone that had not given you written permission
15   to get their credit report, that that was a federal crime?
16        A    You know, at the time I did not.  I personally did
17   not.  Because again, this is an area where I was kind of
18   cutting my teeth on, so I was being walked through it and
19   shown how things worked.
20        Q    Who was walking you through it?
21        A    Several people.  It started out with David
22   Miscavige kind of bringing me in the loop on this kind of
23   thing and showing me.  And the person who would normally be
24   involved in these kind of operations would be Marty Rathbun,
25   so I spent time with him, learning about these things.



 

84
1   And -- and Vicki Aznaran, who had previously had a lot of
2   association in the Guardian's office, which later became
3   OSA.  She was very familiar with the pattern and things that
4   they do.  And her husband, Rick Aznaran, who was my junior.
5   He was a person that I used for the physical security of --
6   to ensure the physical security of the Golden Era base of
7   Gilman Hot Springs, which eventually spread to other
8   organizations.  But that's another person who had
9   experience.
10        Q    Did you ever work with Mr. Moxon?
11        A    No.
12        Q    Were you gone before Mr. Moxon came on board?
13        A    I met Mr. -- no, I was not.  I met Mr. Moxon
14   when -- again, I was there in OSA's formative stages when I
15   actually had the responsibility to put a person in command
16   of it, fill personnel in the legal department, the PR
17   department, the intelligence department, establish it as a
18   organization which then would repeat itself in the other
19   minor organizations within Scientology.
20        Q    So you established the main OSA departments?
21        A    Correct.  The main OSA org board.  We were there
22   to work on what its organizing board should be, what
23   personnel it should have, what policies it needs to operated
24   on, who it needed to establish lines of communication with.
25        Q    Was OSA still Department 20 like the Guardian's



 

85
1   office was?
2        A    Yes.
3        Q    Did it have the same org board as the Guardian's
4   office?
5        A    You know, I couldn't -- in some respects they did,
6   but I don't think totally they did, because -- and this is
7   kind of how I learned it as we went along.  The -- the OSA
8   wanted to make sure that they didn't make the same mistakes
9   as the past Guardian's Office did.  One of the main mistakes
10   that the Guardian's office made was putting in writing and
11   detailing some of the operations that they did to some of
12   the people that opposed them.  An example that is, oh,
13   Paulette Cooper, with, you know, having a person inside with
14   her to affect her in certain ways, you know, and then the
15   next thing you know --
16             MR. WEINBERG:  Objection as to competence.
17        Because he's talking about something that he wasn't
18        part of, that supposedly happened in the early '70s
19        and it can only be based on hearsay.
20             THE COURT:  Well, what does it have to do with
21        this hearing?
22             MR. DANDAR:  It has to do with our defense of
23        extortion against Mr. Minton and the fair game of
24        Mr. Minton causing him to come to this court and
25        lie.



 

86
1             THE COURT:  Okay.  And what -- who is this
2        woman?
3             MR. DANDAR:  Paulette Cooper.
4             THE COURT:  And how did you find out about
5        Paulette Cooper, since Mr. Weinberg objected?
6             THE WITNESS:  I was briefed about it, and I
7        remember her specifically.
8             MR. WEINBERG:  Well, hold on.  That's my
9        objection.  This is just pure unmitigated hearsay.
10             MR. DANDAR:  Not when it comes from a corporate
11        client.
12             MR. WEINBERG:  Well, wait a minute.  He was
13        only in this position for -- whatever he said -- '85
14        to early '87.  And if I understand this, he's now
15        going to recount some supposed incident that
16        happened in the early '70s before he was even part
17        of --
18             THE COURT:  Within -- within the organization
19        to which he was the higher echelon person.
20             MR. WEINBERG:  Well, RTC didn't even exist back
21        in the early '70s when this supposedly occurred.
22             MR. DANDAR:  But Department 20 did.
23             MR. WEINBERG:  Could I --
24             MR. DANDAR:  I'm sorry.
25             THE COURT:  You can, but your objection's going



 

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1        to be overruled.
2             MR. WEINBERG:  Okay.  Well, I'm just making a
3        record.
4             THE COURT:  All right.
5   BY MR. DANDAR:
6        Q    How did you find out about Paulette Cooper?
7        A    In 1977, when the FBI raided Scientology
8   headquarters in Los Angeles, they broke into a department
9   called B1, and they removed a lot of files.
10        Q    Scientology department?
11        A    A Scientology department.  It was their
12   intelligence branch.
13             One of the problems on the files which led certain
14   people to go to jail -- I guess 11 people went to jail over
15   this -- was the fact that every operation, including the
16   operation like the LSD in her toothpaste -- put LSD in her
17   toothpaste to make it seem like she's insane, or to lift her
18   fingerprints off a glass and put it on a bomb threat, which
19   she was eventually being prosecuted over -- I mean, these
20   things were written in detail of exactly how to do it.  And
21   it said on the top who it went to, who approved the program,
22   who executed the program.  In other words, details which
23   later came back to bite them severely.
24             So in putting this new OSA, this new branch there,
25   that had similar functions, but were supposed to operate a



 

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1   little differently.  These reports came.  Again, it said,
2   "Eyes only."  There was no routing as to who it was going
3   to.  There was no author.  There were just paragraphs which
4   were just summations of different operations that -- that
5   Scientology were enacted to discourage people who were in
6   lawsuits against it or critical of it.
7        Q    And then those -- what you saw was then destroyed
8   in some way?
9        A    We were -- we had to shred it immediately.  Part
10   of the new policy -- and Vicki Aznaran is one of the people
11   that told me this -- everybody had to had a shred.  There
12   were only certain designated people these reports were going
13   to.  And we had to verify we shredded the reports.
14             But the reports themselves only contained brief
15   statements of the activities, not who were doing the
16   activities or any details like that.
17        Q    Would those activities include picketing, critics?
18        A    No.  These -- these were different.
19             I -- I'll give you an example of an activity.
20   There was an organization called CAN, called Awareness
21   Network, that Scientology had apparently been fighting for
22   years.  I had no knowledge of it myself, but I would receive
23   a report that there was a deep cover in CAN, listening in on
24   the legal process CAN was involved in, lawsuits and spats
25   with Scientology.



 

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1             This person would get privileged information --
2             MR. WEINBERG:  Your Honor, I object --
3        A    -- report it to --
4             MR. WEINBERG:  I --
5             THE COURT:  Excuse me.
6             MR. WEINBERG:  I believe that CAN didn't exist
7        in 1985 through 1987.  What's Mr. Prince talking
8        about?
9             MR. DANDAR:  Well, that's good cross
10        examination question.
11             MR. WEINBERG:  Well -- but then I object to
12        whatever it is:  Hearsay, competence.  And he's up
13        here talking about some organization that, if I'm
14        correct -- and I think I am correct -- didn't even
15        exist when he was there.  How can he be talking
16        about an intelligence operation with regard to it as
17        if --
18             THE WITNESS:  If you'll let me finish --
19             THE COURT:  Well, just a minute.  NO, you don't
20        get to talk --
21             THE WITNESS:  Oh.
22             THE COURT:  -- until I make a ruling.  And we
23        surely do not need help from you.  At least, I
24        don't, in making my ruling.
25             Now, when did this occur, Mr. Prince?



 

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1             THE WITNESS:  The specific example that I'm
2        telling you --
3             THE COURT:  Yes.
4             THE WITNESS:  -- are things that I've read with
5        my own eyes concerning a group -- it was either CAN
6        or something like CAN -- that Scientology wanted to
7        get rid of.
8             So a person was placed in there, deep cover --
9             THE COURT:  You are so far ahead of me.  Don't
10        incur my ire, because it's the afternoon and it's
11        getting close to 4:00, and that's bad for you and
12        everybody else.
13             When did this operation take place, whatever it
14        is you're talking about?  When did it occur?
15             THE WITNESS:  It was either 1984, 1985, 1986.
16        It would have been somewhere --
17             I'm giving an example of something that I read
18        within those three years.
19             THE COURT:  Okay.  And that's when it occurred?
20             THE WITNESS:  Yes.
21             THE COURT:  And you were in the organization?
22             THE WITNESS:  Yes.
23             THE COURT:  And you read it as part of the
24        documents of the organization.
25             THE WITNESS:  No.  As part of the envelope that



 

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1        would come by, like I explained earlier.
2             THE COURT:  Oh, and you read it on -- in what
3        was reported to you.
4             THE WITNESS:  Yes.
5             THE COURT:  Overruled.
6             MR. WEINBERG:  I understand.  And I'll cross
7        examine him if it has to do with CAN.
8   BY MR. DANDAR:
9        Q    So they put an undercover person into this
10   organization?
11        A    Correct.
12        Q    And what was this person doing?
13        A    The person was there as a volunteer to assist the
14   executives of the organization, you know, carry out whatever
15   they were doing.  And this organization was an organization
16   similar in some ways to the Leo J. Ryan Foundation, in that
17   anyone from anyplace could call, "I think my kid is in a
18   cult.  My daughter's in a cult.  Can you give me information
19   about it?"  It was an organization similar to that.
20             And this person was put in there to divine and be
21   able to turn over to Scientology's legal team information
22   that would give them an advantage in court.
23        Q    Okay.  Now, besides the reporting of intelligence
24   and legal operations, did you have anything to do with the
25   hiring of law firms?



 

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1        A    Yes.  I hired -- I can't tell you how many
2   different law firms abroad, simply for the purpose of filing
3   trademarks.  But in the United States, a law -- well, an
4   attorney that I hired by the name of Joseph Yanni for RTC --
5             THE COURT:  I know this must be relevant, and
6        I'm sure you can tell me, but what -- what is who
7        the law firms were or who was hired --
8             MR. DANDAR:  No.  I don't care who the law
9        firms were.
10             THE COURT:  Okay.
11             MR. DANDAR:  I just want to know if that was
12        part of his duties.
13             THE COURT:  All right.
14             MR. WEINBERG:  All right.  And to the extent
15        that he's going to ask Mr. Prince about his
16        discussions with these law firms, that would be
17        privileged.
18             THE COURT:  As to those -- those --
19             MR. WEINBERG:  In particular --
20             THE COURT:  -- matters -- that's right.  During
21        the time that he was in the organization.
22             MR. WEINBERG:  And I assume Mr. Dandar has not
23        talked to Mr. Prince about if Mr. Prince talked to
24        lawyers for the Church of Scientology about --
25             THE COURT:  I don't want to hear it right now.



 

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1        I mean, this is a question-and-answer period.  You
2        have an objection, make it.
3             MR. WEINBERG:  That was my objection.
4   BY MR. DANDAR:
5        Q    In addition to just hiring the law firms, would
6   you also direct the litigation?
7        A    Correct.
8        Q    All right.  And we're not going to go into details
9   about how you directed the litigation.
10        A    Or even participated in the direction of it.  You
11   know, maybe not me, "Oh, this is my idea.  Therefore we're
12   doing this," but as a group.  It was a group of people.  It
13   was, you know -- and if there was ever a single decision to
14   be made, it was certainly made by the highest person.  But
15   we operated as a group.
16        Q    Who was in the group?
17        A    It was Mr. David Miscavige, myself, Vicki Aznaran,
18   Mark Yeager, Marty Rathbun, Lyman Spurlock, Mark --
19             THE COURT:  It really -- I don't get it yet.
20        Why I do care how they hire a law firm?
21             MR. DANDAR:  No.  This is how they direct the
22        litigation, Judge.
23             THE COURT:  Oh, all right.
24   BY MR. DANDAR:
25        Q    And was the litigation --



 

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1             THE COURT:  Well, I hope they do.  They hire
2        the law firm, they're supposed to be in charge of
3        the litigation, right?
4   BY MR. DANDAR:
5        Q    Do you leave it up to the lawyers to decide how to
6   run the litigation?
7             MR. WEINBERG:  Excuse me, your Honor.  Now we
8        are getting into work product as to how it is that
9        the church dealt with their lawyers back in the
10        '80s.
11             THE COURT:  Sustained.
12   BY MR. DANDAR:
13        Q    Did the litigation involve RTC, that this group
14   would meet and discuss, or did it involve any organization
15   of Scientology?
16        A    In one instance it did involve RTC.  In other
17   instances it involved CSE, such as the Wollersheim case.  So
18   you know, it would -- depending on the case --
19        Q    Okay.  What I'm asking you is it didn't -- it
20   didn't concern crossing over corporate lines and involving
21   litigation involving different corporations.
22        A    The -- the persons that I named that concerned
23   themselves with litigation concerned themselves with all
24   Scientology litigation, despite what corporation or
25   whatever.  These were the people that dealt with litigation



 

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1   for Scientology.
2        Q    And there -- was there a head of that group?
3        A    Yes.
4        Q    Who?
5        A    David Miscavige.
6             THE COURT:  Are you trying to tell me that
7        David Miscavige is running this lawsuit?  Is that
8        what you're trying to tell me?
9             MR. DANDAR:  Running everything.
10             THE COURT:  Well, I mean in particular are you
11        trying to tell me he's running this lawsuit?
12             MR. DANDAR:  Yes.
13             THE COURT:  Well, why would I care?  I mean,
14        why do I care who's running the lawsuit?
15             MR. DANDAR:  All right.  All right.
16             THE COURT:  I mean, this is -- this is a motion
17        to determine whether your case should be dismissed.
18             MR. DANDAR:  It's leading up to this question.
19   BY MR. DANDAR:
20        Q    You mentioned the Wollersheim case.  Can you tell
21   us what activities you personally know about in the
22   Wollersheim case that have anything to do with the
23   destruction of evidence?
24        A    Yes, there is.  And I -- I've done an affidavit
25   about that, and I'm sure it's filed in this case.



 

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1             But there came a point in time where the judge --
2   as part of a discovery motion, it was ordered that Lawrence
3   Wollersheim's PC folders get turned over.
4             I remember during one of these requests -- and it
5   looked like it was pretty serious that the judge was going
6   to make them turn over these PC folders -- that we had to
7   organize -- myself, Vicki Aznaran and other people had to go
8   through the files and redact them by taking out
9   incriminating information, what was considered to be
10   incriminating information against Scientology or anything
11   that could be misunderstood and could then become
12   incriminating.
13             We went through and we redacted files.  And then
14   when defense complained and -- about the files being
15   redacted and the judge ordered the files just simply turned
16   over straight out, those files were destroyed.  They were
17   pulped.
18        Q    What do you mean by pulped?
19        A    They were taken to a paper factory.  They were
20   loaded into a -- they were shredded, loaded into a solution
21   and turned into a fiber.
22             THE COURT:  Who ordered them destroyed?
23             THE WITNESS:  At the time that I destroyed
24        those documents, the order came to me from Vicki
25        Aznaran, who received it from David Miscavige.



 

97
1   BY MR. DANDAR:
2        Q    Were there -- was this a -- destruction of
3   evidence -- was it pursuant to policy established in the
4   Church of Scientology?
5        A    Well, the old overriding policy in Scientology is
6   to protect Scientology; to make it -- you know, protect it
7   in any way and to cultivate it and -- of course, something
8   that would harm it --
9             THE COURT:  Where is that written?  I mean,
10        everything here in policy is in a document written
11        down somewhere.  Where is it?
12             THE WITNESS:  There's a policy letter called
13        Keeping Scientology Working.
14             THE COURT:  Okay.  And that's in evidence and I
15        have that, so that's -- you're suggesting that is
16        part of the Keeping Scientology Working --
17             THE WITNESS:  Yes, ma'am.
18             THE COURT:  -- policy.
19   BY MR. DANDAR:
20        Q    Any other policy besides that one?
21        A    Of protecting Scientology, there's Safeguarding
22   Technology.  I believe that's a HCO policy letter and a
23   bulletin.  There's policies concerning --
24             Well, I -- that's what readily comes to mind.
25   That's what I mentioned.



 

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1             MR. DANDAR:  Okay.
2             THE COURT:  The relevance of this testimony is
3        because you're going to ask me to believe that
4        Mr. Miscavige directed that the PC folders of Lisa
5        McPherson be destroyed.
6             MR. DANDAR:  Yes.
7             THE COURT:  Okay.  Or at least in part be
8        pulped.
9   BY MR. DANDAR:
10        Q    Are you familiar with --
11             THE COURT:  Pulped.  Destroyed in some fashion.
12             MR. DANDAR:  Yes.
13             THE COURT:  Okay.
14             MR. WEINBERG:  Just so the record is clear, we
15        turned over the PC folders.
16             THE COURT:  Well, I understand.  But he is
17        testifying, and so did they in the Wollersheim case,
18        that they turned over what they wanted to turn over
19        after all the damaging stuff was taken out and
20        pulped.  I'm not saying that's true; I'm saying
21        that's the testimony.  Maybe it is true.  I'm not
22        saying it's not either.
23             MR. WEINBERG:  Well, in this particular case,
24        Mr. Dandar has used the PC folders he believes
25        affirmatively to indicate it supports his case.  I



 

99
1        mean, we turned over volumes of PC folders of Lisa
2        McPherson.
3             THE COURT:  I can guarantee you did.  If this
4        testimony has any relevance at all, the only
5        relevance it could possibly have is that this
6        witness as an expert is going to tell us that Lisa
7        McPherson's PC folders are not intact.
8             Is that right?
9             MR. DANDAR:  Yes.  That was my next question.
10             THE COURT:  All right.
11   BY MR. DANDAR:
12        Q    I had you review Lisa McPherson's PC folders,
13   correct?
14        A    Correct.
15        Q    And you did that with Stacy Brooks, right?
16        A    Correct.  In part, yes.
17        Q    And did you -- did you find her 1995 --
18             Well, actually, you looked at -- you did a general
19   review of '95, '94 and '93, correct?
20        A    I believe that's correct.  I mean, I don't
21   remember.  But I certainly did an affidavit that laid out
22   exactly what years I covered and what --
23             THE COURT:  Why don't you let the man have his
24        affidavit while he's testifying?
25



 

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1   BY MR. DANDAR:
2        Q    Let me show you the 12-page affidavit dated in
3   this case -- April 4th, 2000 --
4        A    Okay.
5             MR. DANDAR:  Next exhibit number.
6             THE COURT:  I think this may be in evidence,
7        but maybe not.
8             MR. WEINBERG:  I don't think so.
9             THE COURT:  Oh, okay.
10             MR. DANDAR:  108.
11             MR. WEINBERG:  Affidavit -- it's your new 108.
12        Is that what it is?
13             MR. DANDAR:  Yeah.  I -- what did I do --
14             Oh, Judge, let me give you the clerk's copy.
15        Well, I better give you your copy and I'll give the
16        witness the clerk's copy.  Then I'll be left without
17        a copy.
18             Here.  Take this one.
19             THE WITNESS:  Okay.
20             THE COURT:  Oh, no.  This isn't -- I've never
21        seen this before.
22             MR. WEINBERG:  If I'm not mistaken, this is
23        under seal.
24             THE COURT:  Well, really, there isn't much
25        under seal --



 

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1             Well, this is part of the PC folders.
2             MR. WEINBERG:  I think because of the PC
3        folders.
4   BY MR. DANDAR:
5        Q    First of all, Mr. Prince, you said you were a
6   class 9 auditor in Scientology?
7        A    Correct.
8        Q    You audit people who are members of the Church of
9   Scientology?
10        A    Yes, I have.
11        Q    Both staff and public?
12        A    Correct.
13        Q    Of course, you're not going to tell us what you
14   did in the auditing.  I'm not asking that.  But who are some
15   of the more famous people you audited?
16             MR. WEINBERG:  Objection to that.  He
17        shouldn't -- I object to him talking about auditing
18        famous -- quote, famous people.  I mean, the
19        St. Pete Times is here.  Has nothing to do with the
20        proceeding.  If Mr. Prince has audited some famous
21        person, what's that got to do with this proceeding?
22             THE COURT:  Well, you know, the truth of this
23        matter is, I remember seeing something in this
24        lawsuit that was filed that said he audited David
25        Miscavige.



 

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1             MR. WEINBERG:  I understand.
2             THE COURT:  I think that would have some
3        bearing, that Mr. Miscavige would trust -- or
4        Mr. Miscavige would trust this man to audit the head
5        of the church.
6             MR. WEINBERG:  I don't think that's where
7        Mr. Dandar was going.
8