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1 IN THE CIRCUIT COURT FOR PINELLAS COUNTY, FLORIDA
CASE NO. 00-5682-CI-11
2
3
4
DELL LIEBREICH, as Personal
5 Representative of the ESTATE OF
LISA McPHERSON,
6
7 Plaintiff,
8 vs. VOLUME 3
9 CHURCH OF SCIENTOLOGY FLAG
SERVICE ORGANIZATION, JANIS
10 JOHNSON, ALAIN KARTUZINSKI
and DAVID HOUGHTON, D.D.S.,
11
Defendants.
12
_______________________________________/
13
14
15 PROCEEDINGS: Defendants' Omnibus Motion for
Terminating Sanctions and Other Relief.
16
CONTENTS: Testimony of Jesse Prince.
17
DATE: July 8, 2002. Afternoon Session.
18
PLACE: Courtroom B, Judicial Building
19 St. Petersburg, Florida.
20 BEFORE: Honorable Susan F. Schaeffer,
Circuit Judge.
21
REPORTED BY: Lynne J. Ide, RMR.
22 Deputy Official Court Reporter,
Sixth Judicial Circuit of Florida.
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1 APPEARANCES:
2
MR. KENNAN G. DANDAR
3 DANDAR & DANDAR
5340 West Kennedy Boulevard
4 Suite 201
Tampa, Florida 33602
5 Attorney for Plaintiff.
6
MR. LUKE CHARLES LIROT
7 LUKE CHARLES LIROT, PA
112 N. East Street
8 Suite B
Tampa, Florida 33602-4108
9 Attorney for Plaintiff
10
MR. KENDRICK MOXON
11 MOXON & KOBRIN
1100 Cleveland Street
12 Suite 900
Clearwater, Florida 33755
13 Attorney for Church of Scientology Flag Service
Organization.
14
15 MR. LEE FUGATE
MR. MORRIS WEINBERG, JR.
16 ZUCKERMAN, SPAEDER
101 E. Kennedy Blvd
17 Suite 1200
Tampa, Florida 33602-5147
18 Attorney for Church of Scientology Flag Service
Organization.
19
20 MR. ERIC M. LIEBERMAN
RABINOWITZ, BOUDIN, STANDARD
21 740 Broadway at Astor Place
New York, New York 10003-9518
22 Attorney for Church of Scientology Flag Service
Organization.
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1 APPEARANCES:
(Continued)
2
3 MR. ANTHONY S. BATTAGLIA
Battaglia, Ross, Dicus & Wein, P.A.
4 980 Tyrone Boulevard
St. Petersburg, Florida 33710
5 Counsel for Robert Minton.
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1 THE COURT: Mr. Prince, you all may be seated.
2 MR. DANDAR: Judge, I just was advised by my
3 office that Judge Baird wants us to be at a hearing
4 tomorrow by telephone. And I'm going to be here and
5 my brother is covering another hearing for me in
6 Tampa. But Judge Baird wants to go forward with the
7 hearing by telephone. So I would ask that you let
8 me attend that hearing by phone.
9 THE COURT: What time?
10 MR. DANDAR: Nine o'clock.
11 THE COURT: Okay. How long is the hearing
12 expected --
13 MR. DANDAR: I have no idea.
14 THE COURT: Well, that is no good. What kind
15 of motion is it?
16 MR. DANDAR: It was the Flag's -- or RTC's --
17 actually, Mr. Rosen and Mr. Pope's motion to strike
18 our pleading challenging the domestication of the
19 Texas judgment against the estate.
20 THE COURT: So it's legal --
21 MR. DANDAR: Right. We had a hearing on that
22 Tuesday at about 5 o'clock before July 4 and we
23 filed a supplemental memorandum of law and they
24 filed a response over the holiday, so I guess we'll
25 discuss that.
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1 THE COURT: You think an hour?
2 MR. DANDAR: I hope not. I don't think so.
3 But --
4 MR. WEINBERG: I'm told not that long. About
5 thirty minutes.
6 THE COURT: Okay. Well, let's plan on starting
7 at ten o'clock anyway.
8 MR. WEINBERG: All right.
9 THE COURT: All right, go ahead, Mr. Dandar.
10 Mr. Prince indicated he didn't give us his full
11 explanation, so you can go ahead with that.
12 MR. DANDAR: Okay, before he does that, could I
13 give him a document that I had the clerk just mark?
14 BY MR. DANDAR:
15 Q Well, Mr. Prince, go ahead, give us the full
16 explanation of why you have the opinion that Lisa McPherson
17 was dead because of an end cycle order?
18 A Okay. Lisa McPherson went to the hospital.
19 From -- from the records that I can see from the doctor,
20 they didn't indicate that she was psychotic and needed to be
21 Baker Acted.
22 Now, we're talking about terms here that mean
23 different things to different people. In the hospital they
24 define psychosis the way they define it and, thus, Baker Act
25 people. In Scientology, they have a different definition
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1 for a person, a psychotic or suffering from psychosis.
2 One of the definitions, reasoning of what
3 psychosis is in Scientology, is in their Case Supervisor
4 Series 22, which has been entered in on the record, I'm
5 sure, many times. And this is concerning psychosis.
6 Now, it says here --
7 THE COURT: I don't know if it has been or not.
8 I think you're looking in that one book?
9 THE WITNESS: Yes, ma'am.
10 THE COURT: I'm not sure if that whole book was
11 introduced.
12 THE WITNESS: No. No. Not the whole book.
13 But this issue here, psychosis, has been an exhibit.
14 We can put it in again.
15 THE COURT: I don't know if it has or not.
16 MR. WEINBERG: I don't think it has.
17 THE WITNESS: Okay. Well, when I finish
18 explaining it, I'll hand it over.
19 MR. DANDAR: We'll mark it.
20 THE COURT: All right.
21 A It says -- down here at the beginning of this
22 issue here on psychosis, it says, "All characteristics
23 classified as those of a suppressive person are, in fact,
24 those of an insane person."
25 So, in other words, it is the belief of
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1 Scientology that a person who they consider to be
2 suppressive and has those characteristics are also insane
3 people, you see. So we're working with two different
4 definitions here.
5 Now, if this person -- if Lisa was taken to the
6 hospital and they said okay, she's not insane, she's just
7 having problems, she can work it out, she gets to
8 Scientology, she's insane. They are the ones that classify
9 her as being insane.
10 Why do they classify her as -- well, one of the
11 reasons they classify her as being insane is because she
12 wants to leave. And again that is mentioned here in this
13 book here of people wanting to leave as also being
14 psychotic.
15 So my thing is this. Lisa McPherson was taken to
16 the Ft. Harrison. Prior to being -- to this whole incident
17 with going to the hospital and everything, she made her
18 intentions to the Church known, to her friends, to her
19 family, she wants to leave. In their minds, she's
20 psychotic. Medically, not necessarily so, she simply
21 doesn't want to do it anymore.
22 It has become a matter of PR concern because she
23 had the accident with the boat, you know. She's left,
24 she's --
25 THE COURT: I'm sorry, she had the what?
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1 THE WITNESS: The accident with the boat, where
2 she ran into the back of the boat and took off her
3 clothes.
4 THE COURT: Oh, okay.
5 A Okay? This is something a person now who again,
6 two months earlier, just testified to being more than human,
7 more than a homo sapiens, this person is a homo novis. This
8 person is almost like a demigod.
9 Now, this person is brought to the Ft. Harrison.
10 In my mind, my opinion, she came in there, she said, "I want
11 to leave." She didn't change her mind. She's delegated to
12 be psychotic. They want to put her on introspection
13 rundown. She's incarcerated.
14 In that book "What Is Scientology," it gives a
15 definition of introspection rundown and gives a brief
16 summary of introspection rundown that the public people can
17 read.
18 MR. DANDAR: Let me hand this to the witness,
19 Judge. It is Exhibit 125, just marked by the clerk
20 from "What Is Scientology," which I believe you have
21 the entire book.
22 THE COURT: Yes.
23 A It says "Introspection Rundown. This is a service
24 that helps to preclear, locate and correct things which
25 cause him to have his attention inwardly fixated. He then
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1 becomes capable of looking outward so he can see his
2 environment, handle and control it."
3 Nothing in here, one, if Scientology labels you
4 psychotic, you are going to be incarcerated until a case
5 supervisor tells you you can leave. There is nothing in
6 here that warns anyone of that.
7 So Lisa was taken to the Ft. Harrison, deemed to
8 be psychotic, put on the introspection rundown.
9 Well, when did that come up that we even found out
10 that Lisa was on introspection rundown? After Alain
11 Kartuzinski and other people were given use immunity when
12 they were first saying she's a hotel guest, now the
13 investigators want to hear the story, "Oh, she was on
14 introspection rundown." Okay. So she's on introspection
15 rundown the second day.
16 And to me -- again, she told them, "I want to
17 leave." They wouldn't let her leave. She gets violent.
18 The next day they order the drugs to put her down.
19 BY MR. DANDAR:
20 Q What drugs?
21 A I think it is chloral hydrate or Valium. Alain
22 Kartuzinski gave some money for Valium. And if you look and
23 see what Scientology says about drugs, psychiatric drugs,
24 all of these things, these things are expressly prohibited.
25 Now, so far what we've seen, we see Scientology's
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1 policy if a person is sick, when you take them to the
2 hospital, make sure -- but now we see things happening
3 that -- that are outside of that. By their own policy we
4 see things they are not following that. That is a huge
5 no-no.
6 We are at the place where policy and tech is
7 applied 100 percent correctly standardly in every case, but
8 somehow in this instance we have so many instances where
9 this person -- they are not doing it, they are not doing it.
10 And the reason why, you have to look behind that.
11 And the reason, my contention is, is that she expressly
12 wanted to leave, it escalated to her actually threatening,
13 probably threatening with legal, threatening with law
14 enforcement or whatever. This became a problem. OSA was
15 there from the very beginning, reporting about this, the
16 very beginning, because this is a legal threat, this is a
17 problem in Scientology.
18 So maybe they did try an introspection rundown on
19 her. You know, they say they did. Maybe they did. But I
20 think she never agreed to it. I think that she decided she
21 was done with Scientology, no matter what they said to her,
22 she would no longer agree to it, because by her own word, it
23 was making her sicker.
24 So instead, because of what happened, when they
25 saw Lisa's deteriorating condition, in their minds Lisa is
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1 on the process. She's on introspection rundown.
2 Scientology has further policy, the way out is the
3 way through, get the PC through it. What turns it on or
4 turns it off. In their minds, whatever she's going through
5 is part of the process.
6 Plus, you have the added fear that if this person
7 isn't reconciled with Scientology, it's going to be a big
8 problem.
9 So instead of taking this girl to the hospital
10 where she should have belonged, where their own policy says
11 to do, and get her medical treatment, when it was obvious,
12 by the reports that I have seen that she was ill, instead of
13 doing that, no, we're going to keep doing Scientology
14 because that is what it means by Keeping Scientology Working
15 and, you know, what happens happens. Some of them don't
16 make it. Too bad.
17 But the biggest fear for Scientology was to let
18 this girl go, in the state of mind where she was refusing to
19 cooperate with them, caused them more problems than her
20 actual death.
21 Q How do you get to your conclusion that her death
22 was a result of an end cycle, let her die order from
23 Mr. Miscavige?
24 A During my tenure in -- in RTC, we would have staff
25 meetings that had a pattern to the staff meetings. And the
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1 patterns were this. What are the flaps? What are the
2 handling for those flaps? Those are the first things that
3 are discussed and chewed around and taken care of.
4 Q With whom?
5 A Amongst the executives and the staff in any
6 particular organization. Any particular Sea Org
7 organization, I should say.
8 Q At RTC, who were the meetings with that you had?
9 A Flaps and handling? They would entail myself,
10 Vicki Aznaran, Mark Yaeger, David Miscavige, Lymon Sperlock,
11 Norman Starkey (phonetic), in some instances the executive
12 director in the national if it had to do with stats. But
13 those were the people that ultimately had to know what was
14 going on.
15 Now, why is Flag Service Organization so
16 important? Because the Flag Service Organization, when I
17 left here in 1982, made an income of over 2 million a week.
18 So you have an organization here that makes $8 million in a
19 month. This is -- it is the highest income-producing
20 organization within Scientology.
21 It's a major concern that everything is perfect at
22 the Flag Service Organization. There is not going to be an
23 instance where no one knows what is going on. So in the
24 staff meetings you talk about flaps and handling.
25 Well, Lisa is a flap. It's reported up the lines.
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1 OSA is there from the very beginning because she is a legal
2 threat because it is a flap. And they are busy reporting,
3 you know, on the legal side of it and what is going on and
4 the repercussions.
5 They are also coordinating and in liaison with the
6 technical area that has the technical program that they are
7 trying to get her through, which in their minds is going to
8 cure her.
9 Everyone knows -- I believe there is also
10 testimony on the -- during the time period that Lisa was
11 going through this trouble, Mr. Miscavige was there. We
12 would often go to the Flag Service Organization, to inspect
13 it, to make sure it is running properly, to make sure this
14 technology is being applied 100 percent standard.
15 Q What are you relying on when you say Mr. Miscavige
16 was at the Ft. Harrison Hotel in this time period?
17 A I believe some -- a public person who -- I don't
18 recall the name right now -- something that I read mentioned
19 the fact that he was there. And -- he was at post.
20 Q This public Scientologist saw Mr. Miscavige?
21 A Yes.
22 Q Was that in the police files of the Clearwater
23 Police files?
24 A Yes.
25 Q Okay.
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1 A So your largest income-making --
2 THE COURT: Where is that?
3 MR. DANDAR: I have it. I'll introduce it,
4 Judge. In fact, I have it on my computer. I'll
5 print it out on my next break.
6 THE COURT: Okay.
7 MR. DANDAR: It is Detective Carrasquillo of
8 the Clearwater Police Department interviewed four, I
9 believe, public Scientologists staying in the
10 cabanas who heard nothing during this time period,
11 who saw Mr. Miscavige --
12 MR. WEINBERG: Excuse me, your Honor, is Mr.
13 Dandar testifying? Or is he asking questions?
14 THE COURT: I just asked him a question. He's
15 responding to me. I was saying --
16 MR. DANDAR: It is a four-page document. It's
17 on my computer. I can print it out.
18 THE COURT: Okay.
19 A So, you know, from the limited time that I was
20 there in the Religious Technology Center myself, I know
21 that, you know, there wasn't much about the Flag Service
22 Organization that I didn't know about and also had
23 responsibilities for to make sure that the whole thing ran
24 smoothly. And the person that I reported to was certainly
25 the -- ultimately was Mr. Miscavige.
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1 BY MR. DANDAR:
2 Q Okay.
3 A And I am saying here today -- and the reason I
4 came to that conclusion -- is by their own written policies
5 that they have written here, you start to see violations.
6 And the reason why is because there was a problem. There
7 was a legal threat. Lisa was not cooperating with them.
8 When I did the introspection rundown on the other
9 girl, she was cooperating. She wasn't trying to leave. She
10 was going along with it. She never mentioned that she
11 wanted to leave at any other time. There is a big
12 difference.
13 So now you have a person that wants to leave, has
14 publicly stated they want to leave to their friends, to
15 their family, to the auditor. That is a no-no.
16 Q How did you --
17 A Again, there is reference where a person wants to
18 leave is psychotic. So now they have put this label on her.
19 She's locked in a room. She's terrified. Instead of taking
20 her to the hospital when she was sick and letting her get
21 treatment because of her state of mind and because of the
22 way she felt about Scientology, they opted to just continue
23 the process, and either it works or it doesn't.
24 Q Well, Heather Hof, who was a 17-year-old ethics
25 officer, or studying to be an ethics officer, inspection
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1 reports, all her records, are missing. She testified in
2 deposition that she hand-delivered her reports to
3 Mr. Kartuzinski, saying as early as December 2, I believe,
4 Lisa McPherson wasn't eating or drinking enough to survive,
5 something had to change, Heather was frantic. The --
6 MR. WEINBERG: Your Honor, objection. He's
7 just testifying. This isn't a question. This is
8 just Mr. Dandar summarizing -- and I would say
9 missummarizing -- what he thinks the testimony has
10 been. It's not a question. It's a statement.
11 THE COURT: Well, I suspect that he's saying,
12 "Mr. Prince, if this is her testimony." That is
13 what you do with an expert sometimes. So if that is
14 what he's doing, I'll allow it, I guess, with the
15 question.
16 BY MR. DANDAR:
17 Q So I'm assuming I'm accurate in my recollection of
18 what Heather Hof testified to the police, as well as her
19 deposition in this case, and the pathologist retained by the
20 estate, that Lisa was in a coma that she could be shaken out
21 of but she would go back into, five days -- the last five
22 days of her life. And in reading -- in what you know and
23 reading what you just told us you read, why is it your
24 opinion that they would just simply let her die rather than
25 take her to the hospital?
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1 A Because she was not settled with her relationship
2 with Scientology. And this would have caused tremendous
3 problems for them. If they would have taken her -- you
4 know, even during the period of time when she was going in
5 and out of the coma and say she goes to the hospital now,
6 she starts getting treatment, she's getting better, you
7 know, Scientologists come around, she now tells the doctors,
8 "No, I don't want to see them anymore, I have to get away
9 from this."
10 Q Mr. Prince, I guess the crux of the matter is
11 you -- you put together an affidavit that is dated August of
12 1999. Do you recall that?
13 A Yes, I do.
14 Q Where you talk about the role of David Miscavige
15 and Mr. Mithoff and Marty Rathbun and your prior history in
16 RTC. Do you remember that?
17 A Yes. I do.
18 Q And in that affidavit you have come to the
19 conclusion that the three of them just decided to sit around
20 and not do anything about it and end cycle Lisa McPherson?
21 A Yes. If she dies, she dies. If she gets better,
22 she gets better.
23 Q Now, did I help you write that affidavit?
24 A Not at all. This affidavit came about because --
25 from studying all of the evidence. And I spent months
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1 studying this to come to this conclusion. This conclusion I
2 came to was my personal opinion, I stated it as such, based
3 on the experience I have within that organization.
4 And the thing that -- that became alarming to me
5 to even point me in this direction is the amount of
6 information that is missing, the amount of things that --
7 that isn't there that would clearly show like what her state
8 of mind was based on what she was saying. All of that is
9 missing. Which means cover-up. Which means something is
10 hidden. Why is something hidden?
11 In my mind, similar to what happened in
12 Wollersheim. This is information, if gotten out, could be
13 harmful or damaging to Scientology. And Scientology, the
14 survival of Scientology, is first and foremost in the mind
15 of any Scientologist, even beyond their own lives.
16 Q Did Stacy Brooks put you in the mood to write this
17 affidavit? Did she kind of persuade you to write this
18 affidavit?
19 A No. Put me in the mood? I guess I didn't
20 understand.
21 Q Okay. Did she influence you in any way whatsoever
22 to get you to write this affidavit where you conclude that
23 Mr. Miscavige and others had decided to issue the end cycle
24 order?
25 A No. Matter of fact, Stacy disagreed with my
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1 opinion about that. She disagreed with it. But -- and
2 we've had discussions about this.
3 I mean, you know, I did it outside of her. Stacy
4 was nowhere around when I did my affidavit. And she asked
5 me why I came to that conclusion. I mean, we've had
6 in-depth conversations about that, because Stacy was not in
7 the position I was in to be able to make that determination.
8 Q Did anybody -- let's even go to Bob Minton. Did
9 Bob Minton suggest to you, order you, tell you in any way,
10 shape or form what to put in that affidavit?
11 A No. Bob Minton was so disrelated from anything
12 that I was doing in this case.
13 Q Really? How so? I mean, wasn't involved at all?
14 A Bob Minton never cared about the particulars that
15 was going on in this Lisa McPherson case. He never
16 concerned himself with that.
17 His words to me were, "I have hired Ken. He's got
18 the money. He's the best one that -- the best lawyer I
19 could think of to do it. It's his job. It's his
20 responsibility."
21 Q Did Bob Minton say he hired me, Ken Dandar?
22 A No. No. He just said you were the attorney of
23 record. He trusted you. You could --
24 Q Did you ever hear Bob Minton say to you, or to me
25 in your presence, that -- ordering me to charge David
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1 Miscavige with -- in the civil case with murder?
2 A Absolutely not.
3 Q Did anyone -- maybe I haven't mentioned the right
4 name, I don't know. Let's just cover the whole waterfront.
5 Is there anyone that gave you direction or
6 influenced you in any way on how to write that affidavit and
7 what conclusions you reached in that affidavit?
8 A None at all. No one.
9 Q Now, the only other end cycle orders you have seen
10 when you were in RTC, did they only have to do with people
11 who had a terminal illness?
12 A That is correct.
13 Q Did you ever come across another circumstance like
14 Lisa McPherson where an end cycle order was given and the
15 person did not have a known, medically diagnosed by a
16 licensed medical doctor, terminal illness?
17 A No. With the exception of what I told you about
18 John Nelson, of course.
19 MR. DANDAR: All right. Judge, just in case it
20 is not present, I just want to go ahead and I marked
21 this affidavit that we've been talking about as
22 Plaintiff's Exhibit Number 126. And I'm sure you
23 have so many copies of this already.
24 THE COURT: Is this the one that is 108?
25 MR. DANDAR: No. That is the PC folder one,
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1 108.
2 THE COURT: Oh, okay.
3 MR. DANDAR: This is the one that talks about
4 end cycle.
5 THE COURT: All right.
6 MR. DANDAR: This is what Paragraph 34 of the
7 fifth amended complaint is dependent upon. I would
8 like to move 126 into evidence.
9 MR. WEINBERG: It is already in evidence,
10 but --
11 THE COURT: Yes, it is in, but we'll let it in
12 again.
13 MR. DANDAR: Somewhere. I'm not sure where.
14 BY MR. DANDAR:
15 Q Now, Mr. Prince, do you recall seeing, in the
16 deposition testimony of Judy Goldsberry-Webber and
17 Dr. Houghton and Kartuzinski, that liquid injectable Valium
18 was picked up twice, two separate times, at two different
19 places for Lisa McPherson?
20 A Yes.
21 MR. WEINBERG: I object. This just isn't
22 proper. Do you recall seeing somebody else's
23 testimony? I mean, we should be asking Mr. Prince
24 about his testimony, whatever it is, not what he
25 recalls somebody else's has testified to.
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1 THE COURT: Well, if he read -- just remember,
2 Mr. Prince was his consultant. If he read some of
3 these depositions in some fashion to assist him with
4 his testimony, I mean, I already heard him talking
5 about Valium which he thought --
6 MR. WEINBERG: Which was never given to
7 Ms. Lisa McPherson.
8 THE COURT: Well, I know that. But we want to
9 listen to what it is he says.
10 MR. WEINBERG: Okay.
11 THE COURT: I know that. And I know
12 Kartuzinski was the one who said, "No, we don't use
13 Valium." So, I mean, I know this case a little
14 differently from what Mr. Prince does. But I
15 haven't been to all of the depositions and I haven't
16 read all of the depositions. But I know what I know
17 from this hearing.
18 MR. WEINBERG: All right.
19 THE COURT: And that is that Dr. whatever his
20 name is prescribed the Valium.
21 MR. DANDAR: Minkoff.
22 THE COURT: And Kartuzinski said no. That is
23 all I know.
24 BY MR. DANDAR:
25 Q Mr. Prince, can you tell us how it is that the
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1 organization works where if Dr. Minkoff, as he testified,
2 ordered injectable Valium twice for Lisa McPherson, how
3 would the org go about procuring that Valium from a public
4 drug store?
5 A Well, you would have to use -- you know,
6 Scientology in itself is a closed system to that degree
7 because it does disagree -- seemingly disagrees with
8 psychiatric medicines, the use of psychiatric medicines.
9 However, in -- in the case of introspection and a
10 person that is psychotic, there are references of using
11 drugs to treat those people.
12 But Scientology would only go to another
13 Scientologist who would have that same understanding that
14 would provide what they needed because they are kind of like
15 on the same track. I have never seen it work where a doctor
16 outside of Scientology would do that.
17 Q Well, how does the organization work to go about
18 getting the money approved to push the prescriptions?
19 MR. WEINBERG: Well, I'm sorry to interrupt.
20 But he's asking how Flag would have gotten the money
21 in 1995 or whenever it was. He wasn't there. He
22 wouldn't know that.
23 THE COURT: Well, he can testify as to what he
24 knew when he was there.
25 MR. WEINBERG: In 1982? I mean, it's just --
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1 okay.
2 THE COURT: I mean, he -- this is what he based
3 his opinion on. If it had to do with 1982 we just
4 have to take that into consideration.
5 A Well, there is a simple answer to the question
6 because it's a Scientology policy, it's called CSW,
7 completed staff work. Whenever the organization is expected
8 to -- is expected to finance or pay for something, a
9 document is submitted that -- to the person senior and
10 financial persons within Scientology that explains what the
11 situation is, what the handling of it is.
12 If the situation is a person is psychotic and --
13 you know, and in need of drugs, according to this reference,
14 and handling is to buy the drugs, and then this is okay and
15 they sign it and that gets passed along, the drugs are
16 purchased.
17 BY MR. DANDAR:
18 Q So it gets passed along to who?
19 A If it was an emergency CSW, which would be
20 accompanied with a purchase order, if it is an emergency CSW
21 with an accompanying purchase order, it would normally go
22 from the person who originated the CSW, to his immediate
23 senior, to the commanding officer or whoever that person
24 designated to be in authority to instantly approve moneys
25 expended by the organization.
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1 Q And have you seen a CSW for any of the
2 prescription drugs purchased for Lisa McPherson?
3 A No, I have not.
4 THE COURT: What was the CSW again?
5 THE WITNESS: Completed staff work.
6 THE COURT: Thank you.
7 BY MR. DANDAR:
8 Q If -- if the pathologist retained by the state who
9 say that she's in a coma, it was obvious for five days that
10 she wasn't getting any better, she was getting worse, if
11 Heather Hof, in my recollection of what she said, is correct
12 that she was -- Lisa was getting worse as early as
13 December 2, if that is all true, is there any other
14 explanation that you can think of that would explain why
15 nothing was done sooner for Lisa McPherson?
16 MR. WEINBERG: I object to the form of the
17 question, your Honor, as a completely improper
18 hypothetical.
19 THE COURT: Overruled.
20 A You know, again, I have studied for 16 years these
21 issues, this stuff with red writing, this stuff with black
22 writing, called staff writing; the only -- this is the way I
23 opine this way, the only reason she would have been treated
24 this way is because she was a threat to Scientology.
25 And Scientology has a principle called the
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1 greatest good for the greatest number of the dynamics. The
2 dynamics being the different areas of life that L. Ron
3 Hubbard codified or, you know, decided this is the way it
4 was.
5 In Scientology, the overriding principle is to
6 protect Scientology. That is the greatest good. For her to
7 go in a bad condition to the hospital, complain of what
8 Scientology did to her, to create bad publicity for them,
9 possible lawsuits, possible investigation by law enforcement
10 because she was incarcerated, held against her will, was not
11 anything anyone wanted to deal with.
12 BY MR. DANDAR:
13 Q How could letting someone die be less of a PR flap
14 than taking them to the hospital while they are alive?
15 A Well, I think it is an empirical fact, because it
16 wasn't -- it was virtually unheard of until a year after her
17 death. When you do enough cover-up -- I mean, you know, not
18 until a year after her death was it even known what happened
19 to her. So it worked for a while.
20 Q Okay. Let's go to --
21 THE COURT: I have just got to ask a question
22 there. And I had so many but I didn't want to
23 interrupt Mr. Prince.
24 She went straight to the medical examiner.
25 Right? I mean, from the hospital to the medical
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1 examiner?
2 THE WITNESS: Right, with meningitis.
3 THE COURT: Well, whatever. There is a medical
4 examiner who is the one that determines cause of
5 death in this city.
6 THE WITNESS: Correct.
7 THE COURT: If she had been stabbed, if she had
8 been dehydrated, if she had been shot, whatever it
9 is, you take a dead body to the medical examiner
10 when they are not under a doctor's care for the
11 medical examiner to say what is the cause of death.
12 THE WITNESS: Correct.
13 THE COURT: Right?
14 THE WITNESS: Correct.
15 THE COURT: I don't know how long it took her
16 to do her work. But the deal was as far as the
17 Church would be concerned, she was delivered to the
18 medical examiner to determine cause of death.
19 Right?
20 THE WITNESS: Yes.
21 THE COURT: So any delay was occasioned
22 apparently by some difficulty in determining what
23 was the cause of death. And some disagreements in
24 sending off lab tests and all that sort of stuff.
25 Right?
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1 THE WITNESS: Yes.
2 THE COURT: Okay. So -- so as far as the
3 Church is concerned, Dr. Wood or whoever was going
4 to do the autopsy might have known what they saw in
5 two days.
6 THE WITNESS: Well, I don't believe --
7 THE COURT: I mean, they have no way of knowing
8 that, that they couldn't just cut her open, look,
9 say, "Whoops, there is a blood clot, this was caused
10 by dehydration."
11 THE WITNESS: Well, wasn't it after the
12 criminal case got started that Mrs. Wood went on
13 national TV and spoke about dehydration and all of
14 these things? Wasn't that --
15 THE COURT: It may have been. But the fact of
16 the matter was, is within a matter of however soon
17 they got to this body, depending on how many bodies
18 they had --
19 THE WITNESS: Right.
20 THE COURT: -- somebody did an autopsy, you
21 know, did an autopsy.
22 THE WITNESS: Correct.
23 THE COURT: Dictated findings, and eventually
24 this was put into an autopsy report. And Dr. Wood
25 apparently did go on nationwide TV at some point in
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1 time later.
2 THE WITNESS: Right.
3 THE COURT: But, I mean, it still goes without
4 saying that there would be no way for the Church to
5 know what was going to go on at the medical
6 examiner's office.
7 I mean, gosh, they could have said she was
8 stabbed. They may have been wrong. But there is no
9 way of knowing, when a body is taken under unusual
10 circumstances, anybody not under a doctor's care,
11 where a doctor signs off, like in a -- in a -- and a
12 medical examination is done, an autopsy is done,
13 there would be no way for the Church to know what
14 the ultimate result was going to be.
15 Why, look at all of the flap now about the
16 different autopsy reports and what have you.
17 THE WITNESS: Right.
18 THE COURT: Right?
19 THE WITNESS: I agree with you wholeheartedly.
20 THE COURT: So this has been my problem all
21 along is that you talk about a bad public relations
22 flap.
23 THE WITNESS: Right.
24 THE COURT: Well, a death, for heaven sakes,
25 brings about a lot worse public relation than
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1 somebody who goes to the hospital and says, "I was
2 kept there, I didn't want to stay and they brought
3 me here but I want to go home and I don't want to be
4 here" and some charges are brought because of that.
5 THE WITNESS: Well, your Honor --
6 THE COURT: Which they can defend on the way by
7 saying this was a religious -- she was a member of
8 the Church, this was the way we handled this. That
9 would have been the defense.
10 THE WITNESS: Right. And I -- and I beg to
11 differ with you on the fact that it was more
12 convenient to take her to the hospital as opposed to
13 take a dead body there.
14 THE COURT: I didn't say convenient. I said it
15 would be a -- it was a worse public relations flap
16 to have had Lisa McPherson die at the hotel under
17 the care of the Church of Scientology than it would
18 have been for Lisa McPherson to have gotten well in
19 the hospital, having been taken there by the Church
20 of Scientology and had her say, "They held me there
21 and I wanted to leave and they wouldn't let me
22 leave." That would have created less of a public
23 relations flap.
24 THE WITNESS: I beg to differ, your Honor. And
25 the reason I beg to differ is again, like I say,
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1 this person has just attested to being almost
2 superhuman. This person has been in the community
3 here in Clearwater. She worked on public relations,
4 on behalf of the Flag Service Organization, setting
5 up the Christmas dealies. She was part of the OT
6 committee whose responsibility is to interface
7 Scientology with the community. Lisa was not a
8 low-profile, no-nothing nobody-person.
9 THE COURT: I understand that. But here we
10 are, we are in this hearing, it is the seventh week
11 of this hearing. This case has been going on seven
12 years. There has been no good publicity that has
13 come out of it, presumably, for the Church of
14 Scientology.
15 All this would have been avoided if they had
16 taken her to a hospital if it had been something
17 that they would have known, they took her to a
18 hospital, and had she said, you know, "Those folks
19 were holding me against my will," and they just
20 said, "No, she was there on introspection rundown,"
21 that would have been litigated, long over.
22 Do you think, in the long run, it would have
23 been less of a public relations flap?
24 THE WITNESS: Let's take another perspective of
25 it. If it had gone along as Scientology planned, if
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1 my contention there was a cover-up and they were
2 successfully able to cover up and this girl simply
3 died of embolism, well, who cares? Okay, well, so,
4 you know, another dead person.
5 But if this person came and said, "Hey, look, I
6 have been in here, they have held me, these people
7 have jumped on me, forced drugs down my throat, they
8 shoot me up with needles," you know, I know that --
9 that they said they never used Valium. I'm sorry, I
10 disagree. I have been through these introspection
11 rundowns. The instant they give that stuff -- they
12 give it to the person because they can't sleep.
13 Otherwise, they are up all night. What they call it
14 is a free will or the person simply cannot sleep so
15 they are giving her drugs to make them sleep. Why
16 would you get the same drug two times and not use
17 it?
18 THE COURT: A person that can't sleep is the
19 person that is psychotic in a very hyperactive
20 state. Right?
21 THE WITNESS: Correct.
22 THE COURT: So, consequently, you would concede
23 that Lisa McPherson was, in fact, in a very
24 psychotic state or she could have slept just fine.
25 THE WITNESS: Something caused her not to
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1 sleep.
2 THE COURT: Right. Which, of course, if she
3 was in a psychotic state -- now we are back to that
4 situation where it would have been fairly dangerous
5 for them to let her walk out the door, which --
6 THE WITNESS: You know, as far as her being
7 psychotic, your Honor, I feel we can only speculate
8 about that, because she was never taken to a doctor
9 and diagnosed as being psychotic when they say she
10 was psychotic.
11 THE COURT: Then she wouldn't have needed
12 Valium to make her sleep, would she?
13 THE WITNESS: No.
14 THE COURT: I mean, you can't have it both
15 ways.
16 THE WITNESS: Well, you know, your Honor, I'll
17 be quite honest with you. Before I came in here --
18 I'm tired now because I wasn't able to sleep that
19 well, and I'm sure this will go on until I'm
20 finished. So I don't know, six to one, half dozen
21 of another to me.
22 THE COURT: All right.
23 BY MR. DANDAR:
24 Q Have you ever in your experience seen drugs like
25 Valium or chloral hydrate given to a Scientologist so they
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1 don't leave?
2 MR. WEINBERG: Can we limit it to one or the
3 other?
4 A No, I have not.
5 THE COURT: So you have never seen Valium given
6 to a Scientologist?
7 THE WITNESS: Because they want to leave?
8 THE COURT: Because they want to leave?
9 THE WITNESS: No.
10 THE COURT: Because they were sick?
11 THE WITNESS: Because they were --
12 THE COURT: Psychotic?
13 THE WITNESS: Yes, ma'am.
14 THE COURT: When was that?
15 THE WITNESS: Again, this girl, Terese --
16 BY MR. DANDAR:
17 Q Teresita?
18 A Teresita. Again, she, you know, literally fell
19 off the chair and started doing her thing. And I think one
20 day passed and she wasn't sleeping, and immediately Dr. Dink
21 was contacted. You could literally see her dying in front
22 of your face. She was just burning up. It was one of the
23 most amazing things to see, kind of like the person caves in
24 on themselves, they just kind of fall in, you know.
25 And this started happening to her after she hadn't
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1 slept for two and a half, three days. And she came out and
2 she was given an injection.
3 Q Did you --
4 THE COURT: Was it Valium? That is the
5 question.
6 THE WITNESS: Your Honor, I couldn't speak
7 truthfully as to what the injection was because the
8 doctor was there, he injected her, and I know that
9 within an hour, hour and a half, she was asleep.
10 THE COURT: So in truth now, Mr. Prince, you
11 can't testify in this courtroom that you ever saw
12 Valium given to someone because they either wanted
13 to leave or because they were psychotic; you don't
14 know what the psychotic person was given?
15 THE WITNESS: Correct.
16 THE COURT: Okay.
17 BY MR. DANDAR:
18 Q Mr. Prince, did you have to assist Teresita in
19 eating and drinking?
20 A Yes, I did.
21 Q How did you do that?
22 A I would just gently talk to her and tell her that
23 it is important for her to eat if she wants to get well. I
24 would tell her the case supervisor has said you have to
25 drink X amount a day. Would you please do it? Just trying
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1 to get her cooperation.
2 Q Could she do it by herself?
3 A No.
4 Q So how did you do it?
5 A Oh, I thought you asked me would she do it by
6 herself.
7 Q Right. Did she pick up the water and drink it by
8 herself?
9 A Yes.
10 Q And the food, did she eat it by herself?
11 A Sometimes I had to take a spoon and put it to her
12 mouth and watch her chew, you know, and, "Did you eat it
13 all," you know. That kind of thing.
14 Q All right. Your opinion that Lisa McPherson died
15 because of an end cycle order, an order just not to do
16 anything for her --
17 A Correct.
18 Q -- is that opinion based upon because you hate
19 Scientology? Or is it based upon something else?
20 A For one thing, I certainly do not hate
21 Scientology. I don't hate anyone or anything.
22 My opinion is based solely on personal
23 observation, personal experience. I give it as an opinion.
24 I say why. Maybe I haven't said it as clearly as I need to,
25 but it is so important for Scientology. And, you know,
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1 especially Clearwater is considered a hostile environment.
2 I mean, I have been here when half the city of Clearwater
3 were picketing around the Ft. Harrison with Michael Flynn.
4 I mean, I have seen and been involved in trying to make this
5 a place where Scientology could comfortably be and the
6 environment would be comfortable with Scientology.
7 So, no, I don't hate Scientology. I was a
8 Scientologist myself for sixteen years. You know, I had a
9 firm belief in what I was doing. I have since become
10 disillusioned with a lot of that. But my motive certainly
11 isn't hate.
12 Q Now, Mr. Prince, there came a time when the Lisa
13 McPherson Trust was formed. Do you recall that?
14 A Yes, I do.
15 Q And after you finished working for me full-time,
16 you went to work for them full-time. Correct?
17 A Yes.
18 THE COURT: You know, on some of these things
19 you really are going to have to stop leading him.
20 That is one of the issues that is an issue here. So
21 don't ask him a question and then say "Correct?"
22 MR. DANDAR: Okay. All right.
23 BY MR. DANDAR:
24 Q Mr. Prince, were you ever with Bob Minton when he
25 talked about giving money to me for the case?
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1 A I have been with Mr. Minton a couple of times,
2 yes. Two or three. Yes.
3 Q I want to direct your attention to May of 2000.
4 A Okay.
5 Q All right?
6 A Yes.
7 Q Do you recall any incident where Mr. Minton talked
8 to you about giving money to me?
9 A Around that exact time period, Mr. Minton made it
10 known to me that you needed more money to bring this case to
11 trial. He had thought in his mind that he had given enough
12 money already and, you know, it could have went to trial or
13 whatever. But he was concerned about the repeated motion
14 and -- motions and on and on, just the cost of the case from
15 the filings and things, that he asked me to go over there
16 and look into, well, what is coming up now, I mean, what can
17 we look forward to now?
18 I think at that time you were working on an
19 accident reconstruction. And Mr. Garko was talking about
20 doing a jury pool survey or something. And these were going
21 to be additional expenses that would be needed, you know, as
22 well as whatever else came up to take the trial -- take this
23 case to trial.
24 And I remember going back and speaking to him
25 about that. And he wasn't very happy about that. And then
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1 he -- he -- he went away -- he came into town. Mrs. Brooks
2 and I were working at the LMT. And he came and he said,
3 "Come here, you guys come out here," because he had a fear
4 that the building that we were in was electronically bugged.
5 And we got in Stacy's car and we went into the
6 city parking lot, which is directly across the street from
7 the LMT Trust. Went to the very top where we could see.
8 And he said, "Look, I'm going to tell you guys,
9 you can't tell anybody this, Ken Dandar has more money, he
10 doesn't know where it came from. It came from Europe. You
11 know, I told him, this is as much as I think I can get, I
12 hope this takes you to trial."
13 That was in 2000. He told us that, you know, he
14 didn't want the office to know, you know, Ken didn't want
15 everybody in the office to know or whatever, but this
16 $500,000 came. And -- and, you know, everything with the
17 case would be okay, basically, was the one instance.
18 The second instance was very recently, I guess in
19 March of 2002 --
20 MR. WEINBERG: Your Honor, before he gets to
21 the second incident, that happened when, the first
22 incident?
23 THE WITNESS: May of 2000.
24 MR. WEINBERG: May of 2000?
25
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1 BY MR. DANDAR:
2 Q Did he say where this $500,000 came from?
3 A Europe. People from Europe.
4 Q Did he say to you it was his money?
5 A No. He said he had arranged from some people from
6 Europe who made this money available.
7 Q Did you ever see that check?
8 A No.
9 Q Okay.
10 A Then the second instance was recently in March of
11 2002. He told me that, "Ken needs more money to finish this
12 case and get this case to trial. You know, I'm willing to
13 arrange to get him some money, but I have a problem with
14 some people on the Internet saying bad things about him.
15 Could you ask Ken if there is any way if he has influence
16 over these people to tell them to stop. And if you do, I'll
17 see if we can arrange to get him some more money."
18 Q So what did you do?
19 A So I went and had that meeting. I went over to
20 your office and I met with you. And I said, "You know, Bob
21 thinks that he can get more money for you but he's concerned
22 about this matter. And what are you doing with that? Are
23 you connected with these people, or are you -- you know, are
24 you encouraging them to do this?" You know, we had a bit of
25 a conversation.
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1 And, Mmm, you said you knew nothing about it and
2 had no control over those people whatsoever but, you know,
3 you would do what you could to make it stop if that is what
4 he was worried about, but it wasn't anything you were
5 actively concerned in.
6 Q Do you know anything about the check I got after
7 that?
8 A Mmm, I know at some point that you had gotten a
9 check. And he called me and let me know that you had.
10 Q He did?
11 A Yes.
12 Q Okay. Did he say where that check came from?
13 A He did not.
14 Q Okay.
15 MR. WEINBERG: And the date of that -- the date
16 of the conversation with Mr. Dandar was, you said,
17 March?
18 THE WITNESS: Of 2002. Yes.
19 BY MR. DANDAR:
20 Q Was this before, or after, I flew to Mr. Minton's
21 house?
22 A Before.
23 Q Okay. If I flew to Mr. Minton's house February 22
24 of 2002, when would this conversation be that you and I had?
25 A So I think maybe a week prior.
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1 Q Okay. Were you aware that Mr. Minton --
2 THE COURT: So you are saying that was February
3 of 2002?
4 THE WITNESS: Yes, your Honor.
5 MR. BATTAGLIA: Excuse me, your Honor, what was
6 February of 2000?
7 THE COURT: 2002. This is when Mr. Dandar and
8 this witness had a conversation.
9 MR. BATTAGLIA: Oh. Okay.
10 BY MR. DANDAR:
11 Q Now, I jumped -- when you talked about that
12 meeting, that kind of threw me off because that is two years
13 after where I wanted to talk to you about. So let's go
14 back.
15 Do you know a fellow by the name of Patrick Jost?
16 A Yes. I do.
17 Q Okay. How do you know him?
18 A I know him because he was hired by Mrs. Brooks to
19 specifically assist Mr. Minton to deal with allegations that
20 were being stirred up by Scientology investigators in
21 Nigeria and Switzerland.
22 Q What was he supposed to do?
23 A Mmm, Patrick Jost is multilingual. I think he
24 speaks maybe four or five languages. Mmm, he's also a
25 person -- ex-CIA, spent many years in Europe on behalf of
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1 the United States defense. So he knew a lot of people and
2 had a lot of contacts.
3 And he was supposed to go and find out where the
4 trouble was originating from and try to deal with it
5 accordingly.
6 Q Do you know if he was successful in doing that?
7 MR. WEINBERG: Objection, hearsay, your Honor.
8 THE COURT: Okay.
9 MR. WEINBERG: This whole thing is hearsay.
10 BY MR. DANDAR:
11 Q Did you -- can you describe for us the demeanor of
12 Mr. Minton throughout the years -- almost two years that the
13 Lisa McPherson Trust concerning the -- what he perceived to
14 be actions taken against him by Scientology?
15 MR. BATTAGLIA: I'll object to that as being
16 far too broad, demeanor over a period of two years.
17 THE COURT: Mr. Battaglia, much as I would like
18 to let you object, I don't think you have any
19 standing to object in this hearing. This is a
20 hearing between these two people. Your client is
21 simply a witness. So I'll simply ignore that.
22 MR. WEINBERG: You beat me to my feet because I
23 was about to say the same thing.
24 MR. FUGATE: Stereo.
25 MR. WEINBERG: That is like asking for -- I
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1 don't know how you ask a question like that. His
2 demeanor over two years?
3 THE COURT: I agree with that. It was a little
4 broad.
5 BY MR. DANDAR:
6 Q Did Mr. Minton ever talk to you about what he felt
7 concerning the Scientology investigation of him?
8 A Many times, to answer the question. And it wasn't
9 even the fact that investigations were happening. It's the
10 false information. The false information that was being
11 provided to government officials in different countries,
12 unfounded allegations that were being provided, that
13 disturbed him more.
14 And over time it became increasingly more evident
15 that this was having more and more of an effect on him.
16 Q How did you pick that up?
17 A When I first met Mr. Minton, he was probably about
18 40 pounds lighter than he currently is. Just the nicest,
19 gentlest, kindest person. I mean, I had never seen a person
20 like him before. I mean, literally, who am I? Nobody.
21 But a person like that to come around in your life
22 that just was -- I don't know -- genuinely concerned about
23 other people to the point of almost fault. And very -- very
24 kind. Very intelligent person.
25 I seen him go from that, to -- to kind of being a
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1 person that is annoyed -- kind of annoyed by what is going
2 on, kind of -- Mmm -- annoyed with, you know, what is
3 happening with his kids, you know, what is happening with
4 his house, his phone lines, on and on.
5 Then I seen him go to a person that actually
6 became very doubtful about what he was involved in, what he
7 was doing. He seemed to be less confident as time went on
8 that he would be able to do anything to restrain Scientology
9 from exercising some of its practices that are detrimental
10 to the general public at large.
11 Q Have you -- are you familiar with the doctrine of
12 Scientology called fair game?
13 A For sure.
14 Q Has fair game been canceled?
15 A No. It's alive and well.
16 MR. WEINBERG: It's what? I couldn't hear.
17 THE COURT: Alive and well.
18 THE WITNESS: Alive and well.
19 MR. WEINBERG: And that is based on your --
20 THE COURT: Counsel, we're going to let you ask
21 that question later.
22 MR. WEINBERG: I will. I'll withdraw it. I'm
23 sorry.
24 BY MR. DANDAR:
25 Q Based on your expertise and experience in
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1 Scientology, did you personally observe any fair game
2 practiced on Mr. Minton?
3 A Yes. I have.
4 Q Can you give us some examples?
5 A Mmm, leaflets passed around in Boston where his
6 wife and children live, saying that he's an adulterous,
7 robbed the Nigerian children -- the Nigerian people of
8 moneys, this is a starving country. And -- and kind of --
9 he's kind of somehow aligned with the KKK because he was
10 attacking Scientology.
11 Mmm, his children being followed around.
12 You know, the whole Nigeria/Switzerland thing.
13 They used to meet him at every airport he went to,
14 irrespective of any city, they would just show up and meet
15 him and picket him at the airport. I have been with him
16 when the police literally have to stand in the airport and
17 hold Scientologists back from attacking him.
18 I have been with him in Boston where somehow
19 Scientology OSA people had gotten a hold of his -- his --
20 his records, his counseling records when he was seeing a
21 psychiatrist. And they started saying things to him that he
22 said to his therapist, I know, that upset him extremely that
23 it could even happen.
24 And the fact of the matter is that therapist
25 decided to no longer see Mr. Minton after Mr. Minton went
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1 back and told him, "Hey, why are these guys saying this to
2 me?"
3 Q This was a psychiatrist?
4 A Yes.
5 Q Of Mr. Minton's?
6 A Yes.
7 Q So --
8 A And --
9 Q -- he refused to see him after the records were
10 made public?
11 A Correct. Or exposed. His position was exposed.
12 Q Okay. Did there come a point in time when
13 Mr. Minton, in your presence, was -- had any dramatic change
14 in his emotions compared to the years that you have known
15 him?
16 A Again, you know, what I said earlier. For sure,
17 he changed. He became more of a somber person. He wasn't
18 as cheerful anymore. He was more serious. And at some
19 point it even got into, "Well, you know, they did this to me
20 so I'm going to go picket them. They did this to me so I'm
21 going to go picket."
22 You know, this is -- was kind of like his last
23 line of defense, as I testified the first day I came here,
24 that he could possibly do, you know. "I'm just going to go
25 picket. When they fool with my wife, I'm going to picket.
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1 When they fool with my children, I'm going to picket. What
2 they are doing over in Nigeria, doing all this crap, I'm
3 going to go picket."
4 So he became increasingly despondent about that.
5 And, you know, Mr. Minton takes medication. Not that there
6 is anything wrong with medication, but sometimes he wouldn't
7 take it. You know, he seemed to just be extremely stressed.
8 And during the time periods when he didn't take his
9 medication, he would literally be in a state of collapse
10 with just -- crying uncontrollably and totally despondent.
11 I remember one time he told me he was going to
12 kill himself. He was walking around in the woods with a
13 gun, you know. 200 acres up there where he lives and it is
14 nothing but beautiful woods in New England and he's walking
15 around with a gun. He drove his car in the woods, got it
16 caught on a tree stump and he's out there in the middle of
17 the night, with a gun, crying. You know, that has happened.
18 Q When did that happen, that particular incident?
19 A That was in the fall of 2001, I believe.
20 Q Okay. Do you have any knowledge concerning Stacy
21 Brooks' desire, in the summer of 2001, to go see Dell
22 Liebreich to get her to drop the case?
23 A Yes. I do.
24 Q What is your knowledge?
25 A Mmm, Scientology had very effectively convinced
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1 the courts -- and I'm not trying to cast any aspersions
2 here -- tried to convince the court that somehow the Lisa
3 McPherson Trust had something to do with this Lisa McPherson
4 case.
5 And this assertion, this stuff that had grew over
6 the years, inextricably tied these two things together,
7 which allowed a way to now do continuing discovery on
8 Mr. Minton and Mrs. Brooks and other staff members that
9 worked at the trust.
10 And this was something that he was very concerned
11 about, because financially it was ruining the Lisa McPherson
12 Trust to have a lawyer have to represent all of the staff
13 members, you know, when they get deposed, and they're away,
14 and on and on and on. So --
15 Q Did there come a time when -- well, let's go back
16 to the question.
17 Did there come a time when you had knowledge about
18 Stacy Brooks wanting to go to Dell Liebreich?
19 A Yes. So because of that, you know, and there was
20 more discovery by Scientology specifically on Mr. Minton's
21 finances, they were just narrowing down on that, which is
22 pursuant to their policy here to cut off the funds, on and
23 on and on. They are on a systematic program.
24 One thing that can be said about Scientologists,
25 they are extremely organized and they have resources to do
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1 what they need to do.
2 So Stacy thought that, you know, a lot of stress
3 was coming because of this. So she thought, well, the only
4 reason this is happening is because of this wrongful death
5 case. So she decided to go visit with Dell Liebreich and
6 ask her to drop the case because of what was happening with
7 Bob Minton. And she decided to do this without Mr. Minton
8 knowing about it.
9 And she consulted me on it and asked me, "Do you
10 think he will be extremely upset if I do this?"
11 And I told her that I thought he would be
12 extremely upset, you know, without talking to you about it
13 and just go down there because there was no relationship.
14 Stacy had no relationship with Dell Liebreich.
15 So for her to now -- now come out of the blue and
16 ask her to drop the case, it would be like a woodpecker
17 coming along, telling me to pay my house rent or something,
18 something as bizarre as that. So, you know, Stacy decided
19 she was going to do it anyway.
20 She finally asked Bob Minton. And he said, "No,
21 you don't do it. You don't do that."
22 She decided to do it anyway. She attempted to
23 have a phone conversation with Mrs. Liebreich. And I think
24 at that point, after Mrs. Liebreich spoke with Stacy, she
25 then spoke with you and refused to speak with Stacy anymore.
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1 Q Are you aware of any instance where Bob Minton
2 controlled the wrongful death case?
3 A Not at all. The wrongful death case was the last
4 thing that Mr. Minton was interested in because he had
5 turned it over to you, he felt you were a competent, honest
6 attorney, and, you know, many arguments have happened
7 between Mrs. Brooks and Mr. Minton concerning the fact that
8 she did not need to be involved in the case, or if there was
9 a differing of opinion, to do what you say because you are
10 the lawyer.
11 And, no, he -- he -- he never -- Bob Minton was
12 more concerned about what was going on at the Lisa McPherson
13 Trust.
14 There was a period of time, after we came into
15 existence and actually established a phone number, that
16 people just started calling like crazy. "Hey, can you help
17 me with this? Can you help me with this? Can you tell me
18 what is going on with my brother? He doesn't speak to me
19 anymore. Can you tell us what it means to be an SP? I need
20 to get my money back from Scientology that I haven't used
21 because I have no life, I don't have a place to live." You
22 know, all of these kind of phone calls.
23 And we -- we became extremely interested because
24 after the trust was set up, it gave you a broad cross
25 section of, well, what types of things do people need help
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1 with in relationship to Scientology?
2 So our job became, well, there is nothing we can
3 do about it. If there is a criminal activity concerned, if
4 there is any fraud that is concerned or bad business
5 practices, at that point we started referring people to the
6 responsible governmental agencies.
7 If you have a problem with them returning your
8 repayment money, you refer them to the Consumer Fraud
9 Department -- Department of Agriculture, Consumer Fraud. If
10 it is bad business practices, the Better Business Bureau.
11 If it has something to do with money -- the IRS could
12 possibly be a person to contact if they are not getting
13 satisfaction with known policies on giving money back. This
14 kind of thing.
15 And we had nothing whatsoever -- and the whole
16 reason I stopped working in your office is that we had gone
17 through deposing the majority of the Scientologists and
18 Scientology witnesses. And you were going on to your
19 medical experts. So there was no reason for me -- I mean, I
20 didn't need to sit and listen to a medical expert being
21 deposed.
22 So I worked at the trust. And this is kind of
23 what we were doing. It was kind of like when you went off
24 doing your medical people, we just forgot about the case.
25 At least, I did.
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1 Q So you actually did work at the trust in answering
2 calls for people who needed counseling?
3 A Very much so.
4 Q You weren't just waiting for the trial of the Lisa
5 McPherson case to start?
6 A This trial -- you know, as much as I'm willing to
7 offer my services -- help point out certain things, what
8 happened with Mrs. McPherson was a very unfortunate thing
9 but there are still a lot of people alive that needed help.
10 And that is where I went to -- what I wanted to do.
11 Q What was my involvement with the Lisa McPherson
12 Trust?
13 A Occasionally stop by to have dinner.
14 Occasionally, like maybe I think I maybe seen you there two
15 times during its entire existence, maybe three.
16 Q Did I give any orders to anyone at the Lisa
17 McPherson Trust?
18 A Not that I ever saw. It would be highly unusual
19 if that happened.
20 Q Did I direct any of the picketing?
21 A No.
22 Q Do you know if I ever participated in a picket?
23 A No. You know, I was sitting here listening to
24 testimony about that, and I listened with a sharp ear as
25 Judge Schaeffer here mentioned the fact that you shouldn't
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1 have been anywhere near picketing.
2 And I think what may be kind of misunderstood here
3 is the fact that the vigil is not -- was not and never has
4 been a picketing experience. The vigil is where the people
5 come from all over, they light the candles, they -- they do
6 some Bible stuff, they sing hymns and they may place a
7 wreath where she died at the cabana. That is not a
8 picketing experience.
9 And that is where I have seen you with the vigils,
10 along with the family. And you were there because the
11 family was there.
12 Q Okay.
13 MR. WEINBERG: Your Honor, I have an objection.
14 In light of Mr. Prince's last statement, he said he
15 understood you had said certain things during the
16 hearing? How would he know that if he was to be
17 excluded?
18 THE COURT: I am sure he read transcripts.
19 MR. WEINBERG: Well, but it is --
20 THE COURT: It would have been what he read or
21 somebody told him, which would be inappropriate,
22 too.
23 A I think it came up on the first day when I sat
24 here in the courtroom giving testimony where you admonished
25 Ken and pointed that out. I heard that direction from this
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1 seat.
2 THE COURT: I'm not excluding you from
3 testifying if you read something or heard something.
4 THE WITNESS: Well, I'm just saying that is not
5 the case. I heard it right here in this seat on the
6 first day I was here.
7 THE COURT: You have to understand to the -- to
8 the rest of the world, if candles are being carried,
9 signs are being carried, it is being done, the
10 Church of Scientology -- it may look and seem like a
11 picket. A lot of folks have talked about it as
12 being a picket.
13 THE WITNESS: Right. But at the vigil there
14 are no signs, though.
15 THE COURT: Okay.
16 BY MR. DANDAR:
17 Q Now, did you ever hear Mr. Minton talk about the
18 money that he gave me as -- giving it to me or giving it to
19 the estate? Did you ever hear him talk about that?
20 A I have. And what Mr. Minton has always said to me
21 is he is giving this money to Ken to use on the case at his
22 discretion. He's loaning the money to Ken. That is what I
23 heard.
24 Q Did you ever hear Mr. Minton write or speak about
25 the LMT or Mr. Minton getting the bulk of any of the money
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1 that may be realized from the wrongful death case?
2 A The only time I heard that statement made was when
3 Mr. Minton came back from a radio interview. And he was
4 laughing. And he said, "Hey, you know what, I just went in
5 there and said the bulk of the proceeds are going to go to
6 an anti-cult group or whatever. And I know this is going to
7 chap Scientology's behind." He was into that kind of tit
8 for tat kind of thing.
9 Q Did you ever hear him talk about it in private or
10 outside of the media's presence?
11 A Well, you know, the particular time that I'm
12 talking about was private, you know. And I -- you know, I
13 made the comment, "Really, you know, is that the way it's
14 going to go?"
15 He said, "Look, I'll probably never see a dime
16 from this stuff. I just said it."
17 Q Okay. Did there come a point in time when
18 Mr. Minton started to express concern over the discovery by
19 Scientology of a UBS check?
20 A What I recall about that, and I mentioned or made
21 reference to it in the affidavit that I did, I guess the
22 last one that I did, the April 2002.
23 He called me just in grief, crying. He's like,
24 "It's over. They got me. You know, I'm going to jail."
25 He's just --
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1 THE COURT: Can we have a date on this? You
2 want your last affidavit? I think it was in there.
3 THE WITNESS: Yes, it would probably be a week
4 prior to the meeting that happened on March 28th.
5 So we're talking like maybe March 21st or something
6 like that. You know, the week prior to going to New
7 York.
8 BY MR. DANDAR:
9 Q All right, here is the April 2002 affidavit.
10 A Okay.
11 MR. DANDAR: Judge, do you need another copy?
12 THE COURT: No. I know it is in evidence
13 somewhere. If I need to see it, I'll ask to see a
14 copy of it.
15 MR. DANDAR: All right.
16 A So, you know, I immediately called Mrs. Brooks
17 and --
18 BY MR. DANDAR:
19 Q Well, let's back up.
20 Bob Minton called you up, crying, saying, "It is
21 all over." What else?
22 A He said that, Mmm, "I'm going to jail. I have
23 been told I'm going to jail. They're coming after Therese
24 and the kids."
25 And he was just completely despondent about that.
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1 Q And this was before the New York City meetings?
2 A Yeah.
3 Q Okay.
4 A Yeah. So then --
5 Q But he didn't go into detail as to why he thought
6 he was going to jail?
7 A No, he wouldn't tell me then. I wanted to know,
8 what is his new thing? What in the heck happened? What new
9 thing has happened? He wouldn't tell me.
10 Q Okay.
11 A Stacy, I called her to try to get additional
12 information. She didn't know what the heck had happened.
13 But she knew she had to go up there. So she went up there
14 that day.
15 Q To New Hampshire?
16 A Yes, to New Hampshire. Subsequent days, I got an
17 idea of what happened. And it had no significance to me, I
18 had no idea that this was a significant incident.
19 But he told me that Mike Rinder had somehow gotten
20 a copy of a check, of the $500,000 check, and told him that
21 he knew that Bob Minton lied in deposition about this
22 $500,000 check and they had the proof and they were going to
23 prosecute him on it.
24 Q Did Mr. Minton say he, Mr. Minton, also had a copy
25 of this UBS check?
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1 A No. He said he didn't know how they got a copy
2 because he can't get a copy of it. He said, "I tried. I
3 can't get a copy of it."
4 Somehow, they come up with a copy and show him.
5 And he was just beside himself.
6 MR. WEINBERG: Your Honor, could I ask, could
7 we point out in this affidavit where this incident
8 is that he's just described?
9 THE COURT: Yes.
10 MR. WEINBERG: Because I don't think it's in
11 there. They are saying something about a $500,000
12 check prior to the New York meetings.
13 THE COURT: You have your affidavit there in
14 front of you?
15 THE WITNESS: Yes. I do.
16 THE COURT: See if it is in the affidavit, or
17 if it is something not in your affidavit.
18 THE WITNESS: Okay. Okay, so here, if you turn
19 to Page 3 of the affidavit, I started talking about
20 what I'm explaining right now on the 20th of March,
21 2002.
22 THE COURT: What is this number?
23 MR. DANDAR: Paragraph 9.
24 THE WITNESS: Paragraph Number 9.
25 THE COURT: I don't have it. Maybe I do need
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1 it. What is the number of the exhibit and I'll have
2 the clerk get it?
3 MR. FUGATE: I believe it is attached to
4 Mr. Dandar's response to our memorandum of fact and
5 law. I believe that is where it is.
6 THE COURT: Okay.
7 MR. FUGATE: Can I give you a copy?
8 THE COURT: Yes, please. If you would, that
9 would be great. I'll give this back to you because
10 I know it is in evidence or in the pleadings.
11 MR. FUGATE: It is in the pleadings, I believe,
12 Judge.
13 MR. DANDAR: He's reading from Paragraph 9 on
14 Page 3.
15 BY MR. DANDAR:
16 Q Am I right?
17 A Yes. But, you know -- yes, that was on Page 3,
18 Number 9, during the time period, what I'm talking about
19 here.
20 And before I wrote this affidavit on the
21 attachment, when I met with Mr. Dandar, I wrote on the first
22 page that -- that Scientology had gathered enough
23 information about Bob Minton to get him prosecuted,
24 convicted and jailed.
25 MR. DANDAR: He's looking at his handwritten
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1 attachment.
2 THE COURT: Oh, okay.
3 THE WITNESS: Yes.
4 MR. DANDAR: The first page, the first
5 paragraph.
6 THE WITNESS: Did I answer the question?
7 MR. WEINBERG: I asked you -- I asked you, does
8 it say in the affidavit about this conversation you
9 supposedly had with Mr. Minton prior to the New York
10 meetings where he told you that the Church had a
11 copy of a $500,000 check, and he didn't --
12 THE WITNESS: I don't --
13 MR. WEINBERG: -- have a copy and didn't know
14 where they got it.
15 THE WITNESS: I'm sorry, I don't mean to cut
16 you off.
17 I don't mention the check specifically, but
18 what I mention is, is the information that
19 Scientology had gotten, information that said they
20 were going to get him prosecuted and put in jail.
21 You know --
22 BY MR. DANDAR:
23 Q Paragraph 9, do you talk about the conversation --
24 the first conversation where he's crying?
25 A Yes. They discovered information about him that
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1 threatened his wife and children's future. You know, again,
2 he's suicidal. And then --
3 THE COURT: In your handwritten notes it
4 appears that you are talking about this -- this
5 information before Paragraph 3 which deals with Bob
6 Minton and Stacy Brooks flew to New York. So I
7 presume you were discussing -- or you -- your notes
8 indicated that occurred before the New York trip?
9 THE WITNESS: Yes.
10 THE COURT: I don't think it is very clear,
11 certainly, in the affidavit, but he says that is
12 what he's talking about.
13 THE WITNESS: Well, you know, your Honor, I
14 really did try to do the best I could. This is a
15 very disturbing time for me, too.
16 THE COURT: There is nothing that says that you
17 have to speak to every word of your affidavit. You
18 can expand on it. If that is your testimony, that
19 is fine.
20 THE WITNESS: Thank you. And, you know, in the
21 days between the New York meeting and the 20th of
22 March that I noted here, which is where I came to
23 find out, you know, what is this. Because Stacy
24 flew there. And after she was there, I let her, you
25 know, get settled.
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1 And then he's telling me, you know, they have
2 got this check. And, you know, and he says --
3 basically, it's come down to me or Ken Dandar,
4 somebody has to die here.
5 And I'm like, you know, this was such a
6 complete turnaround. These are people I worked with
7 now for years. We have all been on one accord,
8 doing what we thought were good work. Suddenly now
9 Mr. Minton has to turn on Ken Dandar.
10 BY MR. DANDAR:
11 Q And did you have any further conversation in that
12 phone call with Mr. Minton?
13 A Well, he informed me --
14 THE COURT: This is the phone call before --
15 you are saying this is the phone call before the
16 first time Mr. Minton and Ms. Brooks went to New
17 York?
18 THE WITNESS: Yes, your Honor.
19 THE COURT: We're going to finish that phone
20 call, then we'll take a break.
21 THE WITNESS: Okay.
22 MR. DANDAR: All right.
23 A Yes. He said he didn't feel safe about discussing
24 the information over the phone, he was too upset to talk
25 about it.
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1 MR. DANDAR: All right.
2 THE COURT: Did you say this was about a week
3 before the trip to New York?
4 THE WITNESS: Yes, your Honor. I said on or
5 around the 20th of March. And the trip to New York
6 was the 28th of March.
7 THE COURT: Okay.
8 THE WITNESS: The 28th and 29th of March.
9 THE COURT: Let me just say this about
10 affidavits. They wanted me to sign an affidavit of
11 borrower to buy my house. And I refused to sign it
12 without -- I said, "I'm not going to sign this
13 without this and this and this and this."
14 And finally they just said, "Well, we're going
15 to throw it out. It is not that important."
16 I said, "Well, good."
17 All this, and affidavits. It makes me very
18 nervous. You know, some things might not have made
19 me so nervous.
20 BY MR. DANDAR:
21 Q Anything else on that phone call with Mr. Minton
22 before we take our break?
23 A Mmm, you know, again, starting on March 20th until
24 they actually went to New York, there were many
25 conversations. You know, I don't want to give the illusion
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1 this just happened one phone call and suddenly they were in
2 New York.
3 THE COURT: Let's go ahead and break and then
4 we'll start with -- if you want to go into the other
5 phone calls before New York. All right?
6 MR. DANDAR: All right.
7 THE COURT: We'll be in recess until 3:15.
8 (WHEREUPON, a recess was taken from 2:55 to 3:15 p.m.)
9 ______________________________________
10 THE COURT: All right. You may be seated.
11 MR. FUGATE: Your Honor, before we begin back
12 again, on May 13, 2002 we had filed a request to
13 produce to Mr. Dandar for all financial records of
14 payments to Jesse Prince, including bank records and
15 checks, all W2s, 1099s, and any other tax form
16 issued from Dandar & Dandar for Jesse Prince for tax
17 years 1999, 2000 and 2001. It was never responded
18 to.
19 I think it is now relevant, based on the
20 testimony elicited, that that be produced, or at
21 least responded to that was filed May 13th of 2001
22 (sic).
23 MR. DANDAR: Didn't we respond to that?
24 THE COURT: Had you responded to this?
25 MR. DANDAR: We produced at the time they took
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1 Jesse Prince's deposition -- he's no longer working
2 for me -- all of the W2s, 1099s, all of the checks
3 we wrote. We did not respond to that one.
4 THE COURT: Is there anything additional?
5 MR. DANDAR: I'll have to check. I'm sure --
6 you know, since I brought him back on board as my
7 expert, yes, I paid him since then. So there is
8 something additional. But not back on May 13.
9 THE COURT: You don't need him to regive you
10 what he has already given you.
11 MR. FUGATE: No, I'll go verify what we have
12 and compare that to what he gives us. But -- but he
13 needs to respond. And he needs to give us --
14 THE COURT: I'm not going to require you to
15 give him what he gave you already. So if he gave
16 you stuff for the depositions --
17 MR. FUGATE: I'll check that tonight.
18 THE COURT: Then you must give him whatever
19 else there is.
20 MR. DANDAR: I will.
21 THE COURT: Try to have that to him by the
22 morning. All right?
23 MR. DANDAR: All right.
24 THE COURT: You may continue.
25
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1 BY MR. DANDAR:
2 Q Okay, Mr. Prince, following that telephone
3 conversation, which you said was on or about March 20, 2002
4 with Mr. Minton, did you have any more conversations with
5 him before he went to see Mr. Rinder and Mr. Rosen in New
6 York City?
7 A Yes, I did. I may have had maybe three to four
8 conversations with Mr. Minton and Mrs. Brooks concerning
9 this. Yes.
10 Q Before the New York City meeting?
11 A Yes.
12 Q And what was your relationship with Mr. Minton at
13 that time?
14 A Mr. Minton was a good friend of mine. A person
15 that I trusted. You know, we worked together.
16 Q Okay. Did he confide in you?
17 A Yes. On some things, he certainly did.
18 Q And some things, he didn't?
19 A I can't say that he confided in me on everything.
20 But I know some things he did.
21 Q All right. For instance, when he talked about
22 somehow this check was going to make him and his wife go to
23 jail, did he confide in you what it was that they got --
24 this new thing in the year 2002 that caused him to think he
25 was going to go to jail?
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1 A You know, he said that they got a copy of that
2 check, that -- Mmm -- that he -- you know, had given
3 different testimony, I think, in a deposition or something.
4 And this is what was going to -- this is how they were going
5 to put him in jail for perjury.
6 Q And did he -- all right. Did he go into more
7 detail how that was going to be perjury?
8 A Because he said that he had given testimony
9 contrary to -- you know, in other words, this check, this
10 $500,000 check, came from him, apparently, not people from
11 Europe. Scientology had discovered that. And they were
12 going to use it to get him convicted for perjury.
13 Q Did you ask him why he lied to you and told you
14 that check was from people in Europe?
15 A You know, that was a very good question that I
16 should have asked. But at the time this was all new news to
17 me. He's telling me, you know, "Oh, well, it came from me,
18 it didn't come from him. Now I'm in trouble and now they
19 are getting ready to depose my wife Therese and bring her in
20 on all of this stuff."
21 And in the heat of the moment, the panic of the
22 moment, I'm sure I didn't ask, you know, all of the right
23 questions. But no, I didn't ask him that specific question.
24 Q During those three or four other telephone calls
25 with Mr. Minton before the New York meeting he had with
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1 Mr. Rosen and Mr. Rinder, did Mr. Minton tell you how it was
2 that Scientology can find out that this bank check from UBS
3 that doesn't have his name on it came from him?
4 A The only comment he said was he had no idea how
5 they possibly got a copy of that check because he himself
6 did not have a copy, nor did he know how to obtain a copy.
7 Q Did Mr. Minton ever mention to you anything about
8 Swiss prosecutors during -- before the New York meeting?
9 A Yes, he did. He told me that there was yet
10 another action being contemplated by a prosecutor in
11 Switzerland. And it was my understanding that this had
12 something to do with Nigeria but I'm not sure. You know, I
13 don't know the details of it.
14 Q And he told you this in March before the New York
15 meeting?
16 A Yes.
17 Q Now, isn't it true that before Minton called --
18 MR. WEINBERG: Object to the form to the
19 question, "Isn't it true."
20 THE COURT: Yes, "isn't it true" is suggesting
21 that the answer to that is yes. I mean, I don't
22 know what the question is, but I know what the
23 answer is. That is what the leading part is.
24 BY MR. DANDAR:
25 Q What was your understanding, Mr. Prince, of the
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