0467
1
2
3 IN THE CIRCUIT COURT FOR PINELLAS COUNTY, FLORIDA
4 CASE NO. 00-5682-CI-11
5
DELL LIEBREICH, as Personal
6 Representative of the ESTATE OF
LISA McPHERSON,
7
8 Plaintiff,
9 vs. VOLUME 4
10 CHURCH OF SCIENTOLOGY FLAG
SERVICE ORGANIZATION, JANIS
11 JOHNSON, ALAIN KARTUZINSKI
and DAVID HOUGHTON, D.D.S.,
12
Defendants.
13
_______________________________________/
14
15 PROCEEDINGS: Defendants' Omnibus Motion for
Terminating Sanctions and Other Relief.
16
Testimony of Jesse Prince.
17
DATE: July 9, 2002.
18
PLACE: Courtroom B, Judicial Buiding
19 St. Petersburg, Florida.
20 BEFORE: Hon. Susan F. Schaeffer,
Circuit Judge.
21
REPORTED BY: Donna M. Kanabay RMR, CRR,
22 Notary Public,
State of Florida at large.
23
24
25
0468
1 APPEARANCES:
2 MR. KENNAN G. DANDAR
DANDAR & DANDAR
3 5340 West Kennedy Blvd., Suite 201
Tampa, FL 33602
4 Attorney for Plaintiff.
5 MR. LUKE CHARLES LIROT
LUKE CHARLES LIROT, PA
6 112 N East Street, Street, Suite B
Tampa, FL 33602-4108
7 Attorney for Plaintiff.
8 MR. KENDRICK MOXON
MOXON & KOBRIN
9 1100 Cleveland Street, Suite 900
Clearwater, FL 33755
10 Attorney for Church of Scientology Flag Service
Organization.
11
MR. LEE FUGATE and
12 MR. MORRIS WEINBERG, JR. and
ZUCKERMAN, SPAEDER
13 101 E. Kennedy Blvd, Suite 1200
Tampa, FL 33602-5147
14 Attorneys for Church of Scientology Flag Service
Organization.
15
MR. ERIC M. LIEBERMAN
16 RABINOWITZ, BOUDIN, STANDARD
740 Broadway at Astor Place
17 New York, NY 10003-9518
Attorney for Church of Scientology Flag Service
18 Organization.
19 MR. STEPHEN WEIN
BATTAGLIA ROSS DICUS & WEIN
20 980 Tyrone Blvd.
St. Petersburg, FL 33743
21 Attorney for Mr. Minton.
22
23
24
25
0469
1 INDEX TO PROCEEDINGS AND EXHIBITS
2 PAGE LINE
3 Recess 535 10
Recess 580 3
4 Reporter's Certificate 581 1
5
6
7
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10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
0470
1 (The proceedings resumed at 10:05 a.m.)
2 THE COURT: Mr. Wein, you're here for
3 Mr. Battaglia, who's filing a notice of appearance
4 for Mr. Minton, is that right?
5 MR. WEIN: Correct.
6 THE COURT: I had mentioned to him yesterday
7 that I believed there had been a motion to dismiss
8 filed. He indicated that he thought he knew that.
9 This is my courtesy copy of that motion. I'm
10 going to give it to you to take a look at.
11 MR. WEIN: Yes, ma'am.
12 THE COURT: And you know, frankly, we probably
13 need to have that heard. There's still an issue as
14 to whether this Count I, the counterclaim, will be
15 consolidated or not. But for the moment it's not,
16 and I'm not thinking right now that I will. But
17 that certainly has a bearing on it since he hasn't
18 even answered.
19 MR. WEIN: Yes, your Honor. I'll get it copied
20 during the break.
21 THE COURT: Okay. Great. As I said, he may
22 have it, but just in case he doesn't --
23 But I need that back since that's my copy.
24 MR. WEIN: Yes, your Honor.
25 THE COURT: And so I'm looking for you all to
0471
1 get that scheduled for hearing, okay?
2 MR. WEIN: Yes, ma'am.
3 THE COURT: Okay. Now, I see that we have a
4 couple other matters here that are still
5 outstanding. I hope some of them have been
6 resolved, maybe.
7 We still have the e-mails. Now, there is just
8 no reason in the world why you all can't agree on
9 some of those e-mails on some of those people. I
10 hope you've done that.
11 MR. FUGATE: Well, Judge, the one thing I
12 brought up yesterday -- and I think may be
13 resolvable -- is there are -- there are e-mails that
14 I went and looked at, that look -- just at the
15 headers -- that are e-mails for Peter Alexander,
16 who's already testified, and Patricia Greenway and
17 different people, through LMT. And Mr. Dandar, I
18 think, objected to Ms. Greenway's e-mails being
19 produced because he now says she's a trial
20 consultant of his. But of course, at the time that
21 the e-mails were generated, she was not.
22 THE COURT: She wasn't a witness, was she?
23 MR. FUGATE: Well, I don't know if she was a
24 witness then or not.
25 MR. DANDAR: She's not.
0472
1 MR. MOXON: She -- she was --
2 MR. DANDAR: Never.
3 MR. MOXON: She was subpoenaed and her
4 deposition was started, and it was held in abeyance.
5 Judge Beach indicated that he was going to wait --
6 based on the court's last comments concerning
7 whether the case was going to be consolidated or
8 not, that he was going to wait on that, on the
9 completion of her deposition, until that was all
10 resolved.
11 THE COURT: Whose witness is she?
12 MR. MOXON: Well, she's not listed on anybody's
13 witness list.
14 THE COURT: Then you don't get her e-mails.
15 MR. FUGATE: Well, the problem, Judge, is, the
16 e-mails are -- it's Peter Alexander, slash, Patricia
17 Greenway. Peter Alexander is a -- a witness. As I
18 saw the headers. And so I had marked all those to
19 give Mr. Keane, and then found that, you know, they
20 couldn't be given up due to the fact that Patricia
21 Greenway's name is on the line.
22 I think when you see the -- once -- once we get
23 to rebuttal position and you see these videos, such
24 videos as we now have gotten, you're going to see a
25 totally different image than what I think we were
0473
1 able to -- to put before you, and see the type of
2 activity that's going on that is connected to the
3 case, to the wrongful death case, and to the
4 picketing. And she is in virtually all the videos
5 that I was looking at during the break. And so I
6 think, you know, she well may be -- in fact, I think
7 she will be for sure -- a witness in the
8 counterclaim.
9 But it also goes to -- some of the film video
10 that we saw of Mr. Alexander. Had we had that
11 before he testified, we would have cross examined
12 him. And I think there's going to be like
13 information in the e-mails. And I think it's
14 important that we -- we get them.
15 THE COURT: I don't have any problem with
16 Mr. Alexander. I think he's been listed as a
17 witness.
18 MR. FUGATE: Yes.
19 THE COURT: If she has not, then she is
20 simply -- you don't get people's e-mails just
21 because you want to.
22 MR. FUGATE: Okay. Well -- well, these are the
23 LMT e-mails, now. These are e-mails that were
24 generated out of LMT.
25 THE COURT: I understand. But you still don't
0474
1 get all of LMT's e-mails. You only get LMT's
2 e-mails if there's somebody that is potentially a
3 witness, it would seem to me. I mean, somebody
4 ought to have some privacy in this world beyond
5 everybody under the sun reading their e-mails.
6 MR. FUGATE: Well, I think if they generated
7 them through LMT, and LMT is the subject of the
8 litigation, then -- and they were part of the board
9 of trustees and directors, et cetera, that's a
10 different category than just some citizen. I mean,
11 these are the e-mails that were --
12 One of the problems that we've had is this is
13 all the information that was being sought in the
14 subpoenas that were basically obstructed. The
15 production was delayed by all the parties.
16 THE COURT: You're going to have to file a
17 motion. He says she's a trial consultant. You
18 wouldn't normally get a trial consultant's e-mails,
19 even if she was a party. So we're going to have to
20 hear it. So I just can't make a ruling on it.
21 MR. FUGATE: Well --
22 THE COURT: Peter Alexander, I don't have a
23 problem with.
24 MR. FUGATE: It's the same lines. You don't
25 know who wrote the e-mail by looking at the little
0475
1 blurb that Keane has in his notebook. It just says
2 Peter Alexander, slash, Patricia Greenway, to,
3 whoever.
4 THE COURT: Well, then I guess I'll have to
5 read them all. So there you have it.
6 MR. FUGATE: Well, I'll also --
7 THE COURT: But you can file your motion.
8 MR. FUGATE: -- prepare a motion -- I'll file a
9 motion.
10 THE COURT: Then I can, you know -- it's just
11 too -- when you're all in the cream of things and
12 they're not just crystal clear to me how I need to
13 rule, then I need a motion so I can really think it
14 through.
15 Is she your trial consultant now?
16 MR. DANDAR: Yes.
17 THE COURT: And when was that?
18 MR. DANDAR: The fall of 2001.
19 MR. WEINBERG: Oh, you know, your Honor, I'm
20 sorry, but when this hearing started and
21 Ms. Greenway came up, I said, "Ms. Greenway is
22 obviously his trial consultant," and Mr. Dandar
23 said, "That's a joke."
24 THE COURT: Well -- look, file --
25 MR. WEINBERG: And we've got it on the record.
0476
1 THE COURT: File your motion, and -- and
2 then --
3 You know, I'll -- I thought we could resolve
4 this, but we can't. Okay.
5 Who else --
6 MR. DANDAR: And it's not --
7 THE COURT: Have we resolved the rest of them?
8 MR. FUGATE: Judge, I'm going to have to ask
9 you to let us revisit it at lunchtime, on the
10 videos, because I haven't been able to get in touch
11 with Mr. Keane. So rather than take your time, I'll
12 just check with that. And then over the break, I'll
13 check with Mr. Dandar to see if there's anything
14 else we can -- over the lunch break -- that we can
15 agree to so we don't take up any more time.
16 THE COURT: Okay. How about the e-mails? Have
17 you all agreed to some of the e-mails?
18 MR. MOXON: We've agreed to most of them, your
19 honor.
20 THE COURT: Okay.
21 MR. MOXON: In fact, remember after our
22 conference call, Mr. Dandar and I stayed on the
23 line --
24 THE COURT: Right.
25 MR. MOXON: -- and we agreed which ones would
0477
1 be produced and which ones would be subject to
2 objection. And there were -- there were six names
3 that Mr. Dandar objected to. Ms. Greenway was one
4 of them; he was another, his -- his brother was
5 another. And I understand from Mr. Keane that there
6 are some further communications for which Mr. Dandar
7 was cc'ed, and a bunch of -- and apparently other
8 people are cc'ed too. And pursuant to the court's
9 order, obviously those were not produced because you
10 indicated you wanted to see those first.
11 THE COURT: Right.
12 MR. MOXON: And so he told me he's going to
13 bring them by for you --
14 THE COURT: Okay.
15 MR. MOXON: -- and -- so that you can look at
16 them in camera.
17 THE COURT: Well, maybe the best thing to do is
18 to -- just so that I can see them before we have a
19 hearing on this motion, maybe if Mr. Keane would
20 bring by these Alexander, slash, Greenways, so I can
21 see, number one, whether they're Mr. Alexander's or
22 Ms. Greenway's, and see what the gist of them is,
23 and it might be better to have read at least a few
24 of them before we have a hearing.
25 MR. MOXON: Okay. I'm trying to reach him too
0478
1 on some of the videos. I didn't -- when I wasn't
2 here yesterday, apparently you had indicated that
3 there were a couple of videos that you wanted to see
4 which you didn't believe that you had?
5 THE COURT: Well, no. I think what -- somebody
6 said that there's a couple of videos that have
7 Mr. Dandar on them, and I believe I had indicated
8 that before they would be released, that I would
9 review them in camera to see if there was any basis
10 for them being or not being released. I think that
11 was part of my order, either verbal --
12 MR. MOXON: Yeah.
13 THE COURT: -- or written or something.
14 MR. MOXON: In any event, there are -- there
15 are definitely a couple that you had marked that you
16 said you wanted to see and --
17 THE COURT: Oh, okay.
18 MR. MOXON: -- I'll make sure that those get to
19 you.
20 THE COURT: Okay.
21 MR. FUGATE: Your Honor, so the record's
22 complete, on May 23rd, 2002 --
23 THE COURT: Well, it's best, so that I don't
24 ever hear that you all looked at those or anything
25 of the sort, have Mr. Keane deliver them.
0479
1 MR. MOXON: Oh, I don't have custody of them.
2 THE COURT: Okay.
3 MR. MOXON: They're in Mr. Keane's --
4 THE COURT: Okay.
5 MR. FUGATE: So the record's complete on the
6 last situation, on May 23rd, page 787 of the
7 transcript, line 20 through 25, Mr. Dandar says, "I
8 heard someone call Patricia Greenway my trial
9 consultant. That's a joke. She doesn't work for me
10 at all. She's a person who's just interested in
11 this case," in this hearing is what he represented
12 to the court.
13 THE COURT: Okay. Well, then he'll be
14 hard-pressed to say she was his consultant back in
15 2001.
16 MR. DANDAR: She's -- yeah. She's not a paid
17 consultant. She never has been. She's a volunteer.
18 THE COURT: Well, you can't say that it's a
19 joke if somebody's a consultant and then come and
20 tell me with a straight face that they were a
21 consultant since 2001.
22 MR. DANDAR: I --
23 THE COURT: One or the other of those
24 statements is incorrect.
25 MR. DANDAR: Right. I -- Right. I stand
0480
1 corrected.
2 THE COURT: All right.
3 MR. DANDAR: Here's the original response to
4 their request for production on Jesse Prince. We
5 objected to income tax returns because, number one,
6 it's not provided for under the rules; it's
7 prohibited. And number two, we provided most if not
8 all of the information they requested before, in
9 April of 2001, except for a -- we did pay Mr. Prince
10 $4,000 recently, and that's -- we don't have a
11 returned check on that yet. So we have nothing to
12 produce.
13 THE COURT: Well, when you get it --
14 MR. DANDAR: I will.
15 THE COURT: -- produce it.
16 MR. DANDAR: When I get it back, yeah.
17 THE COURT: Okay. And I'll get to that in a
18 minute. But I've got some other things here --
19 MR. WEINBERG: Your Honor, could I just say one
20 other thing about this joke thing?
21 From my perspective, it really isn't all right.
22 Because I remember very clearly when that came up, I
23 was the one, I believe, that said about the trial
24 consultant thing, and Mr. Dandar looked at me
25 with -- with such -- you know, with such disdain and
0481
1 said, "That is a joke. She's not my trial
2 consultant." I mean, this has been happening
3 throughout this entire proceeding with Mr. Dandar.
4 And it's really sort of what the proceeding's about.
5 And it's just not --
6 THE COURT: I understand that.
7 MR. WEINBERG: It's not right.
8 THE COURT: You file your motion --
9 MR. WEINBERG: I will.
10 THE COURT: -- and then I'll hear you on that.
11 MR. WEINBERG: All right.
12 MR. DANDAR: I did stand corrected, Judge. I
13 was wrong on the date.
14 THE COURT: All right. Now, look, this order
15 concerning production of LMT records, then, for now,
16 I'm going to throw it in the wastebasket. But --
17 but somebody's probably got some envelopes with some
18 postage on them. And it's probably Mr. Moxon. So
19 Mr. Moxon, I'll give this back to you.
20 This is on the LMT production. And probably I
21 don't need to sign that order. So your envelopes
22 and your postage --
23 MR. MOXON: All right. Thank you, your Honor.
24 THE COURT: And whatever ones you all haven't
25 agreed to, let's try to get that resolved so that we
0482
1 can conclude this hearing.
2 MR. MOXON: I guess there really is no written
3 order on this.
4 THE COURT: There isn't. And I probably ought
5 to do a written order. But that order was objected
6 to because it had, as an attachment, the list. So
7 maybe what you can do is hold on to that and attach
8 a different list, those that have been agreed to,
9 and I'll sign that order.
10 MR. MOXON: Great.
11 THE COURT: And that will be agreed to by the
12 parties. And those that aren't agreed to, we'll
13 have a separate motion. And try to put them all in
14 there so we can do one order on the rest of them.
15 MR. MOXON: That makes sense.
16 THE COURT: Okay?
17 MR. MOXON: Thank you.
18 THE COURT: And do put in there the prohibition
19 on the e-mails about Mr. Dandar -- to or from
20 Mr. Dandar; that I'll want to review those first.
21 MR. MOXON: Very good.
22 THE COURT: And that includes, of course, his
23 brother.
24 MR. MOXON: Yeah.
25 THE COURT: Dandar and Dandar, Dandar Law,
0483
1 whatever the e-mail address is.
2 Now, I have two other things here that I hope
3 there's been some resolution on. One is a verified
4 motion to appear pro hac vice and a bunch of motions
5 to quash and memorandums and things regarding the
6 attorney, Samuel D. Rosen. Has that been resolved?
7 MR. FUGATE: No, Judge. I think that those
8 were delivered to you -- the subpoenas -- I
9 understand it was issued at 5 p.m. on --
10 THE COURT: I understand all that. I read it
11 last night.
12 I just wanted to know, has it been resolved?
13 MR. FUGATE: No. It's -- the -- Mr. Rosen is
14 in California and Mr. Hill is in Argentina. There
15 was a letter sent to Mr. Dandar, which he didn't
16 respond to --
17 THE COURT: Counsel, don't reiterate what's in
18 this. I've read it. I simply asked a question: Is
19 it resolved? The answer is no.
20 MR. FUGATE: No.
21 THE COURT: Mr. Dandar, I told you to get on
22 the telephone and get this thing resolved. Now I've
23 got all this stuff to read. Apparently you didn't
24 do that. They've given a list of dates when they
25 can be here. There's a motion for protective order
0484
1 filed. Naturally, they don't have to respond, once
2 they've done the protective order, till we've heard
3 it.
4 Do you want him here --
5 MR. DANDAR: I --
6 THE COURT: -- or not?
7 MR. DANDAR: I talked to him in person --
8 THE COURT: Okay.
9 MR. DANDAR: -- on July the 2nd, and I asked
10 him to appear Monday in this court for this hearing.
11 When I didn't receive a reply, a response from
12 Mr. Rosen, I had -- then had him served with a
13 subpoena. So while I was away on July 4th, this
14 paperwork was generated. And you know, we're not
15 going to be here, I don't think, July 17th. And I'm
16 not going to pay Mr. Rosen first class airfare to
17 fly from New York.
18 So if you tell me that I'm required to his pay
19 his first class airfare, then I'm going to tell you
20 that I don't want him here.
21 THE COURT: I don't --
22 Now, what I'm going to do -- what I asked was a
23 simple question: Has it been resolved and have you
24 called him on the telephone? It may well be a very
25 simple way to resolve this would have been, perhaps,
0485
1 to have done this when he was --
2 He is -- he is, frankly, not just like your
3 everyday, nonresident person. He is a lawyer pro
4 hac vice in this state. Therefore, as far as I am
5 concerned, he is a lawyer in this state. And it
6 seems as if something could have been worked out.
7 He certainly indicated that he would come when
8 he was down here. And I don't know what his
9 testimony would be, but I think he was only present
10 at maybe one -- one hearing. And he's already
11 produced his notes. The subpoena duces tecum said,
12 "Produce the notes." Well, we already have them.
13 So I don't know what you're -- you know, what you
14 want to ask him, but I suspect we could have done
15 this with some degree of civility, with him being a
16 lawyer -- right now in Florida he's a practicing
17 lawyer, because he's been admitted -- to accommodate
18 him. We try to accommodate lawyers.
19 MR. DANDAR: Of course.
20 THE COURT: So I don't know whether I'm going
21 to require you to pay an airfare or not. I don't
22 know that that's contemplated if -- I would resolve
23 this and make rulings on that. But right now I've
24 got another member of the bar, of Georgia, who wants
25 to be admitted to argue this motion. And --
0486
1 MR. DANDAR: Well, there's no need to argue the
2 motion. If -- if Mr. Rosen states that he has court
3 hearings that he cannot get out of because of prior
4 commitments, that's fine. But he doesn't spell out
5 what his prior commitments are. If it's meeting
6 with a client, like RTC or Scientology in California
7 rather than appear in court, then I would object to
8 that. But he doesn't spell out, nor does his
9 counsel from Georgia spell out --
10 THE COURT: Well, you see, you don't even
11 understand this: Once a motion for protective order
12 is filed, he doesn't have to appear, period --
13 MR. DANDAR: I understand that.
14 THE COURT: -- until there's a ruling on the
15 motion.
16 MR. DANDAR: I understand.
17 THE COURT: I just simply said, if it's not
18 been resolved, then we need to schedule a hearing on
19 the motion.
20 MR. DANDAR: Judge, you know, at this stage, I
21 don't think any of this is necessary.
22 THE COURT: You don't want him.
23 MR. DANDAR: No. He doesn't -- I don't want to
24 be here in a hearing on July 17th. This hearing, I
25 hope, is going to be over with this week.
0487
1 THE COURT: Well, he said he'll be here on
2 July 17th.
3 What we'll do is ask him to keep that date
4 relatively free with the idea that we might need
5 him. You make a decision.
6 MR. DANDAR: Well, we don't have to argue the
7 motion. If he's not available, that's fine.
8 THE COURT: All right. I'm going to assume
9 he's unavailable. I've had him say that; I've had
10 his lawyer --
11 MR. DANDAR: Yeah.
12 THE COURT: -- indicate he's unavailable, I
13 mean, so I'm assuming he's unavailable.
14 MR. DANDAR: And so am I.
15 THE COURT: And he did say why he was
16 unavailable. He said he was going to a final
17 pretrial conference scheduled and he needed to get
18 with his client to change some things and work some
19 things out. I don't know what the client is or who
20 the client is, but that seems to me to be a
21 legitimate reason.
22 MR. DANDAR: Yeah.
23 THE COURT: So I think what he's saying --
24 I will admit -- any reason why we shouldn't
25 admit Mr. Hill?
0488
1 MR. DANDAR: No.
2 THE COURT: And I would agree with that. So as
3 far as his motion to be admitted pro hac vice for
4 this purpose, it's granted.
5 MR. FUGATE: And I will call his office -- I've
6 got his secretary's number -- and advise him what
7 the court has indicated for the 17th.
8 THE COURT: Yeah. Just kind of try to keep
9 it --
10 But Mr. Dandar, if -- if you want to have a
11 hearing on the -- what you have to pay to have him
12 here, quite frankly, as I said, he -- he may not be
13 entitled to that; he may. I'd have to make a
14 decision on that.
15 But golly, surely he's been down here
16 sometimes -- I mean -- I mean, if he was here we
17 could have done -- maybe if you'd called him and he
18 was here for a hearing before Judge Baird, you could
19 have done it in a video; I could have seen it in a
20 video. You know, there's lots of ways to work these
21 things out rather than --
22 You know, I'm not crazy about -- both sides
23 here have served subpoena on people when they've
24 been in court, they walk outside of court and they
25 get hit with lawsuits or subpoenas or something.
0489
1 But I'm not sure that can't be done, so I'm not sure
2 that that objection is valid.
3 But I think what he said is, we don't have to
4 hear it. So keep the 17th -- you make a decision if
5 you want him.
6 MR. DANDAR: I will.
7 THE COURT: If you decide you want him, I'll
8 decide what you have to pay him to appear --
9 MR. DANDAR: All right.
10 THE COURT: -- and --
11 But as I said, I -- I am not persuaded that he
12 is a typical non-Florida resident. He is appearing.
13 This is, in my opinion, a related lawsuit, unlike
14 what Mr. Hill suggests.
15 So in any event, you want me to resolve it,
16 I'll resolve it, and we'll see what the law might be
17 regarding those kinds of situations.
18 But remember, we do have his notes.
19 MR. DANDAR: That's right. That's why --
20 THE COURT: Yeah. And --
21 MR. DANDAR: Right.
22 THE COURT: -- you know, I presume that his
23 testimony would be consistent somewhat with his
24 notes, and Ms. Yingling's. She was there and she
25 testified as to what happened there and --
0490
1 MR. WEINBERG: And Mr. Jonas's notes too.
2 THE COURT: And Mr. Jonas's notes.
3 MR. DANDAR: That's correct.
4 THE COURT: And presumably -- I don't know if
5 you've had a chance to speak to Mr. Jonas on the
6 phone or not, but I mean you've had some
7 communication, I know, with Mr. Jonas --
8 MR. DANDAR: Right.
9 THE COURT: -- about the meeting.
10 MR. DANDAR: Yeah. Before this all happened.
11 THE COURT: Right. So, you know, based on
12 that, you may not need him. If you don't need him,
13 I don't need to hear it. If you do need him, I'm
14 going to ask him to set his calendar for the 17th
15 aside; I'll make it a point to be here. You decide
16 by noon today. And if so, I'll tell him block his
17 calendar off.
18 MR. DANDAR: That's fine.
19 THE COURT: If you don't need him, tell me that
20 and I'm going to throw this in the wastebasket.
21 MR. DANDAR: All right.
22 THE COURT: Now, then, we have this Opposition
23 of Defendant Church of Scientology's to H. Keith
24 Henson's Motion for Leave to File Amicus Brief.
25 I don't know exactly what -- I haven't had a
0491
1 chance to look at that, quite frankly. I got it
2 right when I was ready to go on vacation, and
3 frankly, it wasn't something I --
4 MR. LIEBERMAN: Right.
5 THE COURT: I put it somewhere.
6 So I don't know if I'm ready to take this up --
7 MR. LIEBERMAN: Okay.
8 THE COURT: -- right yet.
9 MR. LIEBERMAN: Yeah.
10 THE COURT: I don't know if it's been filed, is
11 my question. I don't know whether I got the
12 original or whether he filed it and sent me and
13 everybody else a copy.
14 Do you know that?
15 MR. LIEBERMAN: I don't think it's been filed.
16 I don't know for sure.
17 THE COURT: Then I might have the original, you
18 think?
19 MR. LIEBERMAN: I think that's probably right.
20 And I would urge that it --
21 THE COURT: I --
22 MR. LIEBERMAN: -- not be filed.
23 THE COURT: I have not filed it. I have it, I
24 believe, at home with some of the other stuff that I
25 thought maybe I would read when I was on vacation.
0492
1 And quite frankly, I didn't.
2 MR. WEINBERG: So it was a real vacation.
3 THE COURT: So -- well, if you consider moving
4 11 boxes and unpacking and moving furniture around a
5 vacation.
6 MR. FUGATE: Judge, my recollection is, when it
7 came in, you indicated, "I've got what appears to be
8 an original and several copies. I'm going to give
9 Mr. Dandar one and give you guys one." So I think
10 that's it.
11 THE COURT: Okay.
12 MR. FUGATE: So --
13 THE COURT: Well, don't anybody file it.
14 Anybody that has a copy, don't file it. I then
15 apparently have the original, which would mean that
16 I can take a look at it and see what it is.
17 I do remember briefly looking. He said it was
18 an amicus brief. Well, it wasn't. It was just a
19 bunch of stuff.
20 MR. LIEBERMAN: It's a letter, which he
21 denominates as either an amicus brief or a motion to
22 file an amicus brief and an amicus brief.
23 THE COURT: Right.
24 Now, one of my -- my real questions is -- is,
25 we get stuff all the time.
0493
1 MR. LIEBERMAN: Yes.
2 THE COURT: I mean, if they send it to the
3 clerk's office instead of to me, it just gets filed,
4 no matter what they call it, no matter what -- we
5 get stuff from people all the time. So that would
6 be my only concern is --
7 MR. LIEBERMAN: Yes.
8 THE COURT: -- I don't monitor that. I let
9 stuff be filed.
10 But I do understand that if there's been some
11 copyright rulings made --
12 MR. LIEBERMAN: Yes.
13 THE COURT: -- and some injunctions on some of
14 this material --
15 MR. LIEBERMAN: Yes.
16 THE COURT: -- which I read over your motion --
17 MR. LIEBERMAN: Yes.
18 THE COURT: -- and some court has said that he
19 can't publish this -- well, then, we can't really
20 allow him, under some guise of filing an amicus
21 brief, to file in a public file things that he's
22 not --
23 So --
24 MR. LIEBERMAN: That's --
25 THE COURT: So I have some genuine concerns, as
0494
1 you do, about some of that.
2 But I haven't read it. Let me take an occasion
3 to look at it. I'll hold this off. I will not file
4 it until I make a ruling on it.
5 MR. LIEBERMAN: Thank you, Judge.
6 THE COURT: Now, I don't know who gets notice
7 about a hearing. I guess him. And he is in Canada.
8 MR. LIEBERMAN: Yes.
9 THE COURT: So maybe I just ought to set a date
10 and see if he wants to come.
11 MR. LIEBERMAN: Yes. That would be a good
12 idea.
13 THE COURT: Did you send him a copy of your --
14 MR. LIEBERMAN: Yes, we did.
15 THE COURT: I thought you did.
16 Do you know where he is; like, where something
17 could be faxed to him? I don't know how long it
18 takes something to get to Canada.
19 MR. LIEBERMAN: I don't know that we have a fax
20 number for him. He doesn't really communicate --
21 MR. DANDAR: I have his e-mail address.
22 THE COURT: Okay. Then I'm going to set a
23 hearing, and we'll just do this on a date certain so
24 that he can be noticed.
25 And he apparently has gotten a copy of this?
0495
1 This is the opposition --
2 MR. DANDAR: Oh. All right.
3 THE COURT: Opposition of the defendant Church
4 of Scientology Flag Service Organization to H. Keith
5 Henson's motion for leave to file amicus brief.
6 So I'm going to file Mr. Henson's motion for
7 leave to file amicus brief, and the church's
8 opposition thereto, Thursday at noon.
9 MR. DANDAR: Would you --
10 THE COURT: Oh -- well, no. Thursday after
11 lunch. 1:30.
12 MR. DANDAR: Would you permit him to appear by
13 phone? I don't think -- I think this man is a
14 person of no means --
15 THE COURT: You know, the truth of the matter
16 is that I think -- what I do remember reading was I
17 read this man's a fugitive of justice. So I don't
18 think I'm going to afford him that.
19 MR. DANDAR: All right.
20 THE COURT: But I would normally -- and you
21 must tell him in the e-mail, that it's not that I'm
22 trying to be punitive here. But when somebody's a
23 fugitive from our country, we just don't open up our
24 process to them as we might another Canadian person.
25 Which I certainly would.
0496
1 So no. If he wants to appear, he needs to
2 appear in person. Or by counsel.
3 MR. DANDAR: Or by counsel.
4 THE COURT: Or by counsel.
5 So if he wants to have someone here on his
6 behalf and he wants to designate somebody, I
7 certainly will hear from them.
8 MR. DANDAR: That certainly will not be me.
9 THE COURT: Well --
10 And as I said, I can only state that in my
11 brief looking at it, it was not a -- an amicus brief
12 that would be of any -- like a normal amicus brief.
13 Okay. Now, before we get started on the
14 testimony --
15 So that's the time we're going to hear it.
16 Would you all remind me? I'll forget.
17 Will you, Mr. Dandar, then, take it upon
18 yourself to give him a notice of hearing; that I'm
19 going to hear his motion --
20 MR. DANDAR: Yes.
21 THE COURT: -- Thursday at 1:30?
22 Now, if he says he can't be here and he -- this
23 is not an urgent matter. So if he says he can't be
24 here but he wants to hire a lawyer and have it
25 argued, he can orally tell you he wants it continued
0497
1 and I'll just hold on to it, we'll hear it at a
2 somewhat more convenient time.
3 Okay. Now --
4 MR. DANDAR: Actually, Judge, I could probably
5 e-mail him while we're sitting here in court.
6 THE COURT: That's all right. That's not --
7 you know, it's not urgent.
8 MR. DANDAR: All right.
9 THE COURT: All right. Now, the -- there was a
10 request for production yesterday and you have now
11 responded to it. You have seen the response, have
12 you?
13 MR. FUGATE: I have seen the response. But I
14 do note it asks for 1099s and W-2s, not Mr. Prince's
15 tax returns. And I think the 1099s should be --
16 MR. DANDAR: Well, we produced those.
17 MR. FUGATE: You know what? To save time, I'll
18 go through this with Ms. West and Mr. Dandar, 'cause
19 I can show him what was produced. I've got copies
20 of them.
21 THE COURT: Well, let's put this aside, then.
22 Madam Clerk, this is an original. I'm going to
23 file it with you. This needs to be filed in the
24 court file.
25 If you need me to resolve anything on that,
0498
1 why, bring it to my attention.
2 MR. FUGATE: Thank you.
3 THE COURT: Now I think that's all we have
4 outstanding for the moment.
5 Your opposition -- is this -- this is not the
6 original. This would be my courtesy copy.
7 MR. LIEBERMAN: That's right. We filed an
8 original.
9 THE COURT: Okay. I'm ready for Mr. Prince.
10 MR. DANDAR: All right. Thank you.
11 THE COURT: He's still under oath. Same oath
12 he's taken. You only have to take it once.
13 You may continue, Mr. Dandar.
14 MR. DANDAR: Thank you.
15 THE COURT: Mr. Wein, you're going to hear some
16 unusual evidentiary rulings here, because we're
17 dealing with things like, perhaps, state of mind of
18 your client. However, you don't have -- you're
19 just -- your client is nothing but a witness in this
20 hearing. Therefore, as I told Mr. Battaglia
21 yesterday --
22 MR. WEIN: I understand I can listen but I
23 shouldn't be standing up and objecting.
24 THE COURT: That's correct.
25 And you might think, "What in the world kind of
0499
1 rulings is she making? She doesn't understand
2 anything about the rules of evidence." This is an
3 unusual hearing with unusual rules, and we've got
4 some objections that have been made and will be
5 preserved, that have been made, First Amendment
6 objections, expert objections, stuff like that, that
7 are preserved. So you might hear triple hearsay
8 come in in this hearing. It's just an unusual
9 hearing. So --
10 MR. WEINBERG: So it's both the lawyers that
11 aren't objecting --
12 THE COURT: Yeah. When you hear that --
13 MR. WEINBERG: (Inaudible.)
14 THE COURT: When the lawyers don't object --
15 MR. WEINBERG: (Inaudible, simultaneous
16 speakers.)
17 THE COURT: -- just understand that we're
18 involved in somewhat of an unusual hearing, and I've
19 made some somewhat unusual evidentiary rulings
20 already. So we're --
21 MR. WEIN: Yes, your Honor.
22 THE COURT: -- taking it from there.
23 Continue.
24 __________________________________________
25
0500
1 BY MR. DANDAR:
2 Q Mr. Prince, I'm not sure I asked you this question
3 yesterday or not, but are you aware that Mr. Minton received
4 from me any information concerning any of the mediations in
5 this wrongful death case?
6 A No, I am not.
7 Q Did Mr. Minton ever talk to you and say, "Oh, Ken
8 Dandar told me this about the mediation and what was said at
9 the mediation"?
10 A No, he did not.
11 Q Now, before you left the Church of Scientology,
12 how many years did you know -- personally know David
13 Miscavige?
14 A I'd say about 12 years.
15 Q And yesterday you said you were a friend of David
16 Miscavige?
17 A I said we'd been friends; we had been friends,
18 close friends, at a point in time.
19 Q Okay. When did that friendship end, if at all?
20 A Well, it's been quite a while since we've talked
21 to each other. Probably -- you know, if we talked to each
22 other -- I don't know -- maybe we could still find some
23 friendship there. But we haven't talked for quite a while.
24 Q Well, give us a year. When did you last talk to
25 him?
0501
1 A '92.
2 Q And is '92 the year that you were no longer a Sea
3 Org member?
4 A '92 is the year that I left.
5 Q Okay. And prior to leaving, did you still
6 consider him to be your friend?
7 A Yes, I did.
8 Q Okay. And did he work with you in RTC when you
9 were deputy inspector general?
10 A Yes, he did. And as a matter of fact, more often
11 than not I would report to him.
12 Q Rather than Vicki Aznaran?
13 A Together with Vicki Aznaran or without Vicki
14 Aznaran.
15 Q Can you describe to the court his management
16 style?
17 A Well, same management style that's pretty much
18 taught throughout the management series of Scientology,
19 wherein an executive is expected to know about or be in
20 control of all areas underneath the executive.
21 Normally when you have a person that's high in the
22 organizational chart in Scientology, you'll have a
23 seven-division org board. The person that is over that
24 activity has to know the details of what's going on in all
25 of those seven divisions. Each division may be having three
0502
1 separate departments, as many as three separate departments,
2 and different units within the department. So there could
3 be a lot of people there. There is provisions for
4 inspecting, getting information, and on and on and on, with
5 that. But it's very much expected to know everything.
6 But it certainly gets carried to an extreme, or
7 certainly was carried on to an extreme during my tenure
8 there, in that certain sections or areas would be
9 micromanaged to the point where the staff in that area could
10 only act on orders and comply with orders, comply with
11 command intention, comply with programs. There was not a
12 lot of original thought process going on in some areas by
13 staff.
14 Q How far down the org board did you personally
15 observe Mr. Miscavige micromanaging during your tenure?
16 A All the way down to the janitor.
17 Q Really.
18 A Yeah.
19 Q Would he manage that way with RTC or would he go
20 outside of RTC?
21 A Would go outside of RTC. There's plenty of
22 examples of that.
23 Q Can you give us a few?
24 A Well --
25 MR. WEINBERG: Could we just date this? I was
0503
1 under the impression that when Mr. Prince was at
2 RTC, Mr. Miscavige wasn't. So can we put a date
3 when he's talking about?
4 THE WITNESS: I certainly will.
5 THE COURT: And what was that?
6 THE WITNESS: Well, I haven't spoken of any
7 instance yet, but the instance that I'm about to
8 talk about right now happened in 1985 -- and I do
9 believe I've done a declaration about this before --
10 whereby myself, David Miscavige, Vicki Aznaran, Mark
11 Yeager, Mark Ingber, Ray Mithoff, the usual crew,
12 came to the FSO.
13 BY MR. DANDAR:
14 Q Flag?
15 A Flag Service Organization.
16 Q In Clearwater?
17 A In Clearwater, Florida.
18 Went through the entire organization, started
19 declaring suppressive persons of staff and public on the
20 spot; people that we didn't want or felt were inappropriate
21 to be in the Flag Service Organization.
22 I've given a declaration about that before.
23 THE COURT: Have I seen that declaration?
24 MR. DANDAR: I don't -- I don't think --
25 Was it -- it wasn't in this case, was it?
0504
1 THE WITNESS: No. I believe it was in another
2 case.
3 I will certainly find it, when --
4 THE COURT: That's all right. I just didn't
5 know -- I didn't remember --
6 MR. DANDAR: No, it wasn't.
7 THE COURT: -- reading it.
8 MR. WEINBERG: Does he know what cases?
9 Was it the Wollersheim case?
10 THE WITNESS: I believe it may have been.
11 A There's another instance that was produced and
12 written about by KSW News or Scientology News, where again
13 the usual crew -- myself, Miscavige, Lyman Spurlock, Ray
14 Mithoff, Mark Ingber, Mark Yeager, several Scientology
15 attorneys -- went to San Francisco to have a mission
16 holders' conference with the current mission holders.
17 THE COURT: Go to the mission --
18 THE WITNESS: Mission holders. Mission holders
19 would be like franchise holders, organization --
20 The Scientology organization is one thing.
21 Then you can have a franchise of that which is
22 called a mission. And the mission holder would be
23 the owner of the mission.
24 THE COURT: I see.
25 A Anyway, we went up to San Francisco to have a
0505
1 mission holders' conference. And prior to actually having
2 the conference, we stopped in a local Scientology
3 organization, the San Francisco organization, went through
4 the entire organization, spoke to everyone in the
5 organization, and removed the executive from the
6 organization, removed other people, and left.
7 BY MR. DANDAR:
8 Q What gave you the power --
9 MR. WEINBERG: Could you please date that one
10 too, please?
11 BY MR. DANDAR:
12 Q What year was that?
13 A That one was 1982 -- late '82 or very early '83,
14 as I recall.
15 Q And what gave Mr. Miscavige and your group the
16 power to go into a separate corporation, the San Francisco
17 organization, and remove officers of the corporation?
18 A This is the subject of something I've also given
19 extensive testimony and declaration about, because it goes
20 to alter-ego within Scientology.
21 But there's a thing called mission tech, where Sea
22 Org members can get together on orders based on Sea Org
23 programs, and go into any organization and take it over
24 completely and remove its executives, alter, change its
25 policy, change its board of directors, change whatever it
0506
1 wants to. And once it deems that the activity is performing
2 to the expected standard, then the mission will pull out.
3 Normally these missions last for two, three weeks.
4 Q So it has to do --
5 THE COURT: Mission --
6 I'm sorry, Mr. Dandar. We must be driving you
7 crazy.
8 The mission lasts for two or three weeks,
9 meaning the mission church or the mission of these
10 folks that are going in to take a look?
11 THE WITNESS: The mission of these folks going
12 in to take a look --
13 THE COURT: Okay.
14 THE WITNESS: -- your Honor.
15 BY MR. DANDAR:
16 Q And the officers of the corporation are removed
17 because they're doing --
18 I mean, what's the reason for that? Let's talk
19 about the San Francisco organization.
20 THE COURT: Why is that relevant?
21 MR. DANDAR: It's the power of the Sea Org,
22 which is one of the issues raised at this hearing.
23 MR. WEINBERG: But it's not an issue at this
24 hearing. It may be an issue he's trying to raise,
25 but the issue at this hearing is whether or not, A,
0507
1 there was misconduct by Mr. Dandar and others; and
2 B, whether or not there was a basis to allege that
3 David Miscavige had ordered the killing, death of
4 Lisa McPherson. Not Sea Org, none of that.
5 THE COURT: Well, part of the allegation was he
6 was the head of the Sea Org, which was by --
7 That is an issue.
8 MR. WEINBERG: But it's -- it -- Mr. Miscavige,
9 as we know, is not a party, because he didn't
10 pursue -- that was the way they got him to be a
11 party, by saying he was outside of the contract --
12 THE COURT: I --
13 MR. WEINBERG: -- and --
14 THE COURT: -- understand that, Counsel. But
15 the allegation in the complaint that you are trying
16 to get a summary judgment on and -- and have
17 dismissed as false is that David Miscavige did these
18 certain things. And that still is part of the
19 complaint, whether he's a party or not.
20 MR. WEINBERG: There's a lot of accusations in
21 the complaint that I guess Mr. Dandar could have
22 this hearing go for the next three months about, but
23 that isn't a central --
24 I've said my piece.
25 THE COURT: Thank you.
0508
1 BY MR. DANDAR:
2 Q So Mr. Prince, you and your party, which included
3 Mr. Miscavige, ousting the corporate officers of the San
4 Francisco corporation, what -- what gave them the power to
5 do that?
6 A Again, it was just Sea Org -- it's called Sea Org
7 mission tech, where a person in the Sea Org, called a
8 mission op, or operator -- mission ops, it's called -- will
9 put together a set of, like, project order to get done in
10 the organization. They may call for removing the
11 executives; it may call for investigating and then removing
12 upon determination; it may call for training; it may call
13 for correction.
14 Q And back in late '82, early '83, when you and
15 Miscavige and the others went to San Francisco, who was the
16 head of the Sea Org?
17 A David Miscavige.
18 Q And when you left in '92 --
19 THE COURT: Mr. Hubbard was still alive then?
20 THE WITNESS: In 1992, yes.
21 MR. DANDAR: No, '82.
22 THE COURT: '82.
23 THE WITNESS: Oh. '82. Yes. I'm sorry.
24 THE COURT: And he was not the head of the Sea
25 Org?
0509
1 THE WITNESS: Yes, he was. He was the
2 commodore.
3 But you know, we were going through this whole
4 song and dance to try to get tax-exempt status for
5 the various organizations of Scientology, and the
6 problem came up where I guess it was determined that
7 L. Ron Hubbard -- it was found that L. Ron Hubbard
8 was the managing agent of Scientology and the Sea
9 Org. And so Mr. Hubbard, by that time, had really
10 separated himself for the purposes of allowing this
11 church entity -- these Scientology entities to get
12 tax-exempt status. He had kind of separated himself
13 totally from Scientology activity.
14 THE COURT: Okay.
15 BY MR. DANDAR:
16 Q So when he separated himself, who took over as the
17 head of the Sea Org?
18 A Miscavige. David Miscavige.
19 Q And when you left in '92, who was the head of the
20 Sea Org?
21 A David Miscavige.
22 Q Was there anyone in the Sea Org that had equal or
23 greater rank than David Miscavige from '82 to '92 when you
24 left?
25 A At the time before I left, David Miscavige -- this
0510
1 whole thing with brevet rank and being a captain and
2 stuff -- this is something that happened, I believe, later,
3 after I was done there.
4 Mr. Miscavige derives his authority from being the
5 chairman of the board of nearly every -- all of the major
6 corporations. He's on the board of directors somehow, where
7 he derives --
8 And then also, as far as Sea Org is concerned,
9 Miscavige --
10 I mean, basically, L. Ron Hubbard passed the torch
11 to Miscavige. He didn't pass it to Miscavige; he passed it
12 on to Pat and Annie Broeker. Miscavige got rid of Pat and
13 Annie Broeker, so effectively took control of Scientology.
14 Q And did he take control of Scientology as the
15 chairman of the board of some corporation or through the Sea
16 Org?
17 A He took control of Scientology through -- by
18 corporate means. And he was able to --
19 You see -- you see, this may be a little
20 confusing, so I think this is worth -- takes a moment to
21 explain.
22 The Sea Org operates on not only these green
23 policy letters and these red bulletins that we've seen, but
24 the Sea Org has its own issues and issue types that it
25 operates on. And they're called Flag orders. Flag
0511
1 orders -- you know, they supersede corporate boundaries;
2 supersede posts or positions or whatever.
3 A So Flag orders -- L. Ron -- the last Flag order
4 that he wrote, he turned over Scientology to Pat and Annie
5 Broeker. He called them loyal officers. Loyal officers is
6 a term that comes up from reading Scientology's,
7 quote/unquote, advance materials. That was -- loyal
8 officers were supposed to be the highest rank in
9 Scientology.
10 Miscavige -- after L. Ron Hubbard passed,
11 Miscavige cancelled that issue, did not let Pat and Annie --
12 THE COURT: We don't really need to go there,
13 do we?
14 MR. DANDAR: Well, I'm leading up to one
15 question.
16 THE COURT: Okay.
17 A Anyway, he effectively took it over.
18 BY MR. DANDAR:
19 Q All right. Now, why is it that paragraph 34 --
20 based on your affidavit, why is it that it alleges that
21 David Miscavige, outside of anyone else, would be the person
22 who would have given this order to end cycle?
23 A Well, I think what my affidavit actually says
24 is -- is David Miscavige would have sat there with Ray
25 Mithoff, with Marty Rathbun, the people that meet, to -- to
0512
1 make sure that the flaps within Scientology that are a
2 threat are dealt with. I think what I said there was that
3 those three people would have gotten together and decided --
4 THE COURT: Ray Mithoff and who else?
5 THE WITNESS: Marty Rathbun.
6 MR. DANDAR: R-a-t-h-b-u-n.
7 THE WITNESS: Would have sat there with full
8 knowledge and information of what was going on with
9 Lisa McPherson. And instead of letting her be taken
10 to a hospital, would have told these people to just
11 let her stay there, and let's see what happens here.
12 Let's continue. See if we can, you know, finish the
13 introspection rundown. Don't put her on any line
14 where she can tell a story about what's happening to
15 her.
16 In other words, let her die. If she dies,
17 that's what happens.
18 BY MR. DANDAR:
19 Q Now, what if the -- based upon your tenure and
20 your experience of working with Mr. Miscavige, Mr. Rathbun,
21 Mr. -- I've forgotten the third name.
22 A Mithoff.
23 Q Mithoff.
24 If Mr. Mithoff and Mr. Rathbun said, "No, no, no.
25 We have these reports, that she needs to -- she's not
0513
1 doing -- she's getting worse. She needs to go to the
2 hospital. Send her to the hospital," and Mr. Miscavige
3 says, "No. We're not going to do that," out of those three,
4 who prevails?
5 MR. WEINBERG: Objection. This is just rank
6 speculation.
7 THE COURT: It would appear to be so, except I
8 believe he indicated, back when he was at RTC, these
9 same people were there?
10 MR. WEINBERG: No. Mr. Mithoff was in CSI.
11 Mr. Rathbun was not in RTC.
12 I -- I mean, he --
13 BY MR. DANDAR:
14 Q Mr. Prince --
15 MR. WEINBERG: -- at the time --
16 THE COURT: I'm going to allow it, because I
17 know what the answer is. I mean --
18 BY MR. DANDAR:
19 Q Mr. Prince, who was in RTC when you were in RTC,
20 at these meetings?
21 MR. WEINBERG: No --
22 A The only people that were in RTC were myself and
23 Vicki Aznaran. David Miscavige was the chairman of the
24 board of Author Services, a for-profit corporation that was
25 L. Ron Hubbard's publishing company. However, that meant
0514
1 nothing in relationship to who were the principals of
2 Scientology, who were directing -- directing the actions of
3 Scientology as a whole. And the people that were doing that
4 were David Miscavige, myself, Vicki Aznaran, Mark Yeager,
5 Mark Ingber, Lyman Spurlock.
6 THE COURT: Was there a majority vote taken?
7 THE WITNESS: There's no such thing as a vote
8 in the Sea Org, unless you're deciding on a quality
9 of food, in Scientology.
10 THE COURT: If you disagree on a decision, who
11 made the final call?
12 THE WITNESS: If you disagreed on a decision --
13 if you disagreed with someone that was above you,
14 you would be sent for correction to straighten out
15 your --
16 THE COURT: Look, if you folks are sitting
17 around trying to decide something -- you and all
18 these people, you said, were kind of a -- there --
19 and you disagreed; you know, you said, "I think this
20 should happen," Ms. Aznaran said, "I think this
21 should happen," David Miscavige said, "I think this
22 should happen," who made the call?
23 THE WITNESS: Ultimately the person who would
24 have the authority and everyone would have to follow
25 would be Mr. Miscavige.
0515
1 THE COURT: So he -- he made the final call.
2 THE WITNESS: Yes, he would say, "Okay. Yeah.
3 This is how you do it."
4 BY MR. DANDAR:
5 Q Would he get input from the others for --
6 A Yes. I mean, that happened. But the purpose -- I
7 mean, you know -- and I just want to clear this picture --
8 make this picture a little bit more clearer as to how it
9 actually works.
10 Mr. -- Mr. Mithoff, based on how it worked when I
11 was there -- I'm just going to explain this.
12 Mr. Mithoff would have brought this situation to
13 the attention of Mr. Rathbun. Mr. Rathbun would have looked
14 over this -- okay. And again, in my mind, I'm not going
15 with the theory that she was crazy when they took her to the
16 hospital; I'm not going with the theory that she just lay
17 there and wanted to be there; I'm going with the theory
18 that, just like she said, she wanted to leave. She was
19 trying to leave. They incarcerated her, falsely
20 incarcerated her, wouldn't let her leave.
21 So Mr. Mithoff would have brought it to
22 Mr. Rathbun's attention. Because you have a threat. You
23 have a person that is now escalated. They want to get out.
24 And now they're sick. It's going bad -- worse to bad.
25 Mr. Mithoff would have taken and put an exact
0516
1 instructions in her folder, went over it with Mr. Rathbun.
2 And at the meeting they would have sat down with
3 Mr. Miscavige and said, "This is the situation. This is the
4 flap. This is the handling." If their handling included
5 not taking her to the hospital and keeping her there and
6 doing Scientology on her, Mr. Miscavige would have said,
7 "Fine." If their handling would have been, "Look, I think
8 we better take this risk even though she is antagonistic,
9 and we got to send her to the hospital," it is my opinion
10 that his answer would have been, "No. You leave her right
11 there."
12 Q And why is that? What do you base that opinion
13 on?
14 A I base that opinion on the fact that protecting
15 Scientology is the ultimate goal of any Scientologist,
16 irrespective of friend, family, business. Scientology comes
17 first. Because the idea in Scientology is that
18 Scientology's going to save the world. And if you lose
19 Scientology, you lose the world. So it's the greatest good
20 to protect Scientology than it would be to be concerned
21 about an individual, or a group, for that matter.
22 Q Now, are you familiar with the term and policy
23 letter called "bypass"?
24 A Yes, I am.
25 Q All right. Can you tell the court what that is?
0517
1 A Bypass is a situation -- I guess I can just do a
2 real example here using the court reporter. If this court
3 reporter here were typing transcripts and she were making
4 too many errors, someone else would have to come in here and
5 take over her job and -- while she goes and gets fixed or
6 gets corrected, and takes over her actual job, and does the
7 job until she's able to perform it again.
8 Q Do you have an opinion whether or not, in Lisa
9 McPherson's case, bypass would have come into play?
10 THE COURT: I don't understand that. I'm
11 sorry. Maybe I just didn't understand the example.
12 Maybe --
13 THE WITNESS: Okay. I'll try to do another
14 example, your Honor.
15 THE COURT: Bypass, to me, means you jump over
16 somebody or you go around someone.
17 THE WITNESS: Well, you actually displace that
18 person and assume their position.
19 THE COURT: Oh, I see. Okay.
20 THE WITNESS: Until they can do the job
21 correctly.
22 THE COURT: Okay.
23 BY MR. DANDAR:
24 Q Let me show you --
25 THE COURT: I don't think he answered your
0518
1 question. I interrupted him. So if you want an
2 answer, do you --
3 MR. DANDAR: Well, I'm going --
4 THE COURT: In the Lisa McPherson case --
5 MR. DANDAR: No --
6 THE COURT: -- did bypass occur?
7 MR. DANDAR: I'm going to ask a question first.
8 THE COURT: Okay.
9 MR. DANDAR: I'm going to interrupt myself.
10 THE COURT: All right.
11 BY MR. DANDAR:
12 Q Let me show you what I have marked as Plaintiff's
13 Exhibit 127, see if you can identify this.
14 A Okay.
15 Q Can you identify this?
16 A Yes, I can. This is what's commonly referred to
17 as a CBO, central bureau order. It's another issue type
18 that Scientology puts out, you know, like a bulletin or a
19 policy letter. And this particular issue talks about senior
20 management bypassing into lower areas or lower units within
21 the Scientology infrastructure.
22 Q Under what circumstances would that happen?
23 A This would happen at any point where the senior
24 officer or senior body felt that there was a situation going
25 on in a lower area that wasn't being dealt with to par.
0519
1 Q Now, do you have an opinion, based upon your
2 experience in Scientology, whether or not, after your review
3 of the Lisa McPherson matter, the policy bypass would have
4 come into play?
5 MR. WEINBERG: Objection to competence. I
6 don't even know what this is. I mean, this is not
7 written by L. Ron Hubbard, apparently. It's not in
8 the green volumes or the red volumes. There's been
9 no -- there's been no --
10 And Mr. Prince said he knew what bypass was.
11 Well -- but -- and now he's going to apply it to
12 some hypothetical situation that he doesn't have any
13 personal knowledge of?
14 THE WITNESS: I think the issue speaks for --
15 THE COURT: I --
16 THE WITNESS: -- itself.
17 THE COURT: I think for this purpose of this
18 hearing, I just want to hear everything he has to
19 say.
20 MR. WEINBERG: I understand. I just --
21 THE COURT: So I'm going to allow it.
22 MR. WEINBERG: Every now and then, I just need
23 to get up to renew --
24 THE COURT: All right.
25 MR. WEINBERG: -- my --
0520
1 Just so Mr. Wein --
2 Is it Wein --
3 MR. WEIN: Yeah.
4 MR. WEINBERG: Mr. -- I'm "wine," and he's
5 "ween."
6 THE COURT: I want to hear everything --
7 MR. WEINBERG: Okay.
8 THE COURT: -- because I want to find out all
9 the things that Mr. Prince may have, as Mr. Dandar's
10 consultant --
11 MR. WEINBERG: I understand.
12 THE COURT: -- told him about, so that I can
13 have some understanding of the complaint and the
14 allegations you've made. And so I'm going to allow
15 it.
16 BY MR. DANDAR:
17 Q Have you seen this document before today,
18 Mr. Prince?
19 A Yes, I have.
20 Q And under what circumstances have you seen that?
21 A I have seen this during messenger training.
22 I had to, myself -- when I went to Gilman Hot
23 Springs in 1982, I became what's called a commodore
24 messenger. And I've explained that endlessly too. It's a
25 person -- it's an emissary of L. Ron Hubbard who has the
0521
1 same authority as L. Ron Hubbard. When they come with an
2 order to an area, it's like L. Ron Hubbard giving an order
3 to an area. So you know, this has the highest level of
4 priority, as far as compliance's concerned.
5 I became a commodore's messenger. And as part of
6 being a commodore's messenger, this was the first time in my
7 study pack on the duties of commodore's messenger that I
8 read this particular issue.
9 Q Okay. And do you have an opinion whether or not
10 this bypass would come into play in any part of the matter
11 concerning Lisa McPherson?
12 A I think it would have certainly come into play,
13 given the fact that Mrs. McPherson was not being cooperative
14 or -- and actually intended to leave Scientology. And this
15 was consistent in what she was saying. So that's like a
16 breach of technology. There's no such thing as Scientology
17 not working, as far as the written materials are concerned.
18 If Scientology doesn't work, then something is wrong with
19 the individual. Somebody has done something wrong or
20 somebody has misapplied it.
21 So if you have a person in the extreme situation
22 like Lisa was, that continued, that would be reason for
23 bypass; to come in and, you know, deal with it specifically.
24 Q Who gets involved when bypass happens?
25 A For the FSO?
0522
1 Q Yes.
2 A Normally Ray Mithoff.
3 Q In what position?
4 A He's the senior technical person internationally
5 for Scientology. The Flag Service Organization is the
6 senior mecca of technical perfection as far as Scientology
7 is concerned, so the -- the Flag Service Organization is
8 certainly one of the major providences of the senior CS
9 international.
10 Q Now, a while back, you know, in my office, you
11 pulled out an OW of Lisa McPherson --
12 THE COURT: OW?
13 MR. DANDAR: Overt withhold, abbreviated OW.
14 BY MR. DANDAR:
15 Q -- that she wrote in the fall of '95, concerning
16 February of '95, where she mentioned management had to get
17 involved? Do you recall that?
18 A Yes. This was a -- right around the first time I
19 believe that Lisa started experiencing severe difficulty
20 with Scientology, as far as her relationship to it. And she
21 mentioned that whatever was going on with her was -- you
22 know, technically it resulted in a bypass by senior
23 management; a bypass of the Flag Service Organization, to
24 specifically help her and deal with her situation.
25 Q Now, we already have in evidence and marked as
0523
1 Exhibit 96 --
2 And this is an extra copy.
3 MR. DANDAR: And Judge, I'll show it to you if
4 you need to see it again.
5 BY MR. DANDAR:
6 Q But it's the Heide Negro (sic) isolation watch
7 report.
8 Did you see that before?
9 A Yes, I did.
10 Q And on the second page it talks about --
11 THE COURT: That's in evidence?
12 MR. DANDAR: Yes. 96.
13 THE COURT: Oh, okay. It's been a long time.
14 THE WITNESS: I think she needs --
15 MR. DANDAR: It is a long time.
16 THE COURT: Thank you.
17 BY MR. DANDAR:
18 Q On the second page, first paragraph of the last
19 sentence --
20 MR. WEINBERG: Well, hold on. Mr. -- I object
21 to his competence -- he has no personal knowledge of
22 any of this.
23 THE COURT: I don't even know what the question
24 is going to be, so --
25 MR. WEINBERG: He's now going into
0524
1 somebody's --
2 THE COURT: Well, you don't know what he's
3 going to go into because you haven't heard the
4 question. So let's hear it and I'll --
5 MR. WEINBERG: If I could --
6 THE COURT: Go on ahead with your question.
7 BY MR. DANDAR:
8 Q Okay. The first paragraph, it says that this data
9 came originally from FSO CS, Alain Kartuzinski, who was in
10 charge of John Taylor's correction.
11 Who --
12 THE COURT: See, I don't even know where you're
13 reading from.
14 MR. DANDAR: I'm sorry. First paragraph on
15 page 2.
16 THE COURT: Oh. Page 2.
17 MR. DANDAR: Yes. I'm sorry.
18 THE COURT: Okay. Go ahead.
19 BY MR. DANDAR:
20 Q "This was later corrected by a telex from Mr. Ray
21 Mithoff, who indicated that the RD --" I guess that's
22 rundown --
23 A Right.
24 Q "-- in fact could be delivered, at which point
25 delivery commenced."
0525
1 Now, what does that mean in plain English?
2 A There was a question of whether or not this person
3 could be given the introspection rundown. Alain Kartuzinski
4 apparently thought that no one was qualified at this
5 particular location, which is their advanced organization in
6 the United Kingdom. This person was -- apparently had
7 similar symptoms to what Lisa and other people were having
8 that have that problem.
9 And Mr. Mithoff -- this, again -- at management,
10 was alerted. And Mr. Mithoff indicated that the rundown
11 could be given, because Mr. Mithoff is the senior-most
12 technical person within the Scientology infrastructure.
13 Senior FSO CS Alain Kartuzinski -- any auditor or
14 case supervisor located here in Clearwater, Florida,
15 operating in the Ft. Harrison Hotel and the Sandcastle, are
16 considered to be the cream of the crop as far as auditors
17 and technically trained people are concerned.
18 Q Okay. Well, are you aware of evidence that you've
19 seen where David Miscavige has become personally involved in
20 the matters concerning Lisa McPherson?
21 A One thing that I saw where he actually comes out
22 himself was a letter that was written to Mr. Bernie McCabe
23 concerning dismissing the criminal case that was brought
24 against Scientology for Lisa McPherson's death.
25 MR. WEINBERG: Your Honor, Mr. Dandar's not
0526
1 taking the position that this justifies his
2 accusation that David Miscavige murdered Lisa
3 McPherson, whatever he's got to show you, that
4 happened in the criminal investigation.
5 THE COURT: No. I think what he's about to
6 show me, based on his question, is something that
7 indicates that David Miscavige knew about the Lisa
8 McPherson case. I don't think --
9 MR. WEINBERG: Well, I think --
10 THE COURT: -- that that --
11 MR. WEINBERG: -- the whole world knew about
12 the Lisa McPherson case once there were people --
13 once the church was indicted and people were walking
14 around with picket signs.
15 THE COURT: We have to read it, 'cause I don't
16 know what it is.
17 BY MR. DANDAR:
18 Q Plaintiff's 128. Is that the letter you're
19 referring to, Mr. Prince?
20 A Yes, it is.
21 MR. WEINBERG: Well, could I have a copy,
22 please?
23 MR. DANDAR: Oh.
24 A Yeah.
25
0527
1 BY MR. DANDAR:
2 Q Based upon your experience as a Scientology
3 executive in RTC, why would RTC have anything to do or be
4 involved with the Lisa McPherson matter?
5 A I think if you just look at the second paragraph
6 on page 7 of this letter, the last sentence, I think that
7 pretty much says it all. It says, "Therefore, if rapid,
8 responsible and meaningful resolution of this case is to be
9 achieved --"
10 THE COURT: Just a second. I can't find out
11 where you are. Page 7, what?
12 THE WITNESS: Second paragraph. Last sentence
13 in the second paragraph.
14 THE COURT: All right.
15 THE WITNESS: Where it says, "Therefore, if
16 rapid, responsible and meaningful resolution of this
17 case is to be achieved, you and I are the persons to
18 do it."
19 BY MR. DANDAR:
20 Q You, meaning Mr. McCabe, and I, meaning Mr. --
21 A Miscavige.
22 Q -- Miscavige?
23 A Correct.
24 Q Why would -- again, why would Mr. Miscavige then
25 be personally involved in the Lisa McPherson matter?
0528
1 MR. WEINBERG: Again --
2 A Again, bypass --
3 MR. WEINBERG: -- isn't this pure speculation
4 on his part?
5 THE COURT: Well, I think that -- that --
6 I would read this that this was after the
7 charge was brought.
8 MR. DANDAR: Yes.
9 THE COURT: And that Mr. Miscavige, as the
10 ecclesiastical head of the church against whom a
11 charge was brought, was saying, "If this is going to
12 be resolved, Mr. McCabe, as the state attorney, and
13 I, as the head of this church, need to sit down and
14 try to resolve it."
15 MR. WEINBERG: And of course, he was not
16 successful at that point, because the case continued
17 for another year. And we all know how it --
18 THE COURT: However, we perhaps need to hear
19 from Mr. Prince how he believes that statement shows
20 that Mr. Miscavige was involved before Lisa
21 McPherson died. Which is what your point of the
22 question --
23 MR. DANDAR: That's where I'm heading, yes.
24 THE COURT: Okay.
25
0529
1 BY MR. DANDAR:
2 Q How does that -- how can you explain that as
3 reference to, as the judge just said --
4 A I think the letter, you know, indicates
5 Mr. Miscavige's broad knowledge of every step of the
6 criminal case, you know. And there's no obvious evidence
7 that he's had involvement in this case, but it would
8 certainly be my opinion that he has. Because again, this is
9 a flap. It's a bypass.
10 THE COURT: Well, Mr. Prince, let me just ask
11 you what would seemingly be a logical question to
12 me:
13 You could certainly have a situation -- I'm not
14 saying this is true or not true. But you could
15 have -- certainly have a situation where somebody
16 didn't know about somebody being ill, but when
17 criminal charges were filed, because that person
18 died, if they're the head, they'd become involved
19 and take over from that point.
20 THE WITNESS: Yes, your Honor. That is a
21 rational line of thinking for, you know, regular
22 world activities. But in Scientology, these -- you
23 know, Scientology --
24 THE COURT: I'm not saying that --
25 THE WITNESS: -- is extremely --
0530
1 THE COURT: -- Mr. Miscavige didn't know.
2 THE WITNESS: Right.
3 THE COURT: I am saying that another
4 explanation -- I mean, this is about a criminal
5 charge --
6 THE WITNESS: Right.
7 THE COURT: -- right?
8 THE WITNESS: Right.
9 THE COURT: And so you could certainly have --
10 THE WITNESS: Against the Flag Service
11 Organization.
12 THE COURT: Yeah.
13 You could have a situation where the
14 ecclesiastical head, after criminal charges are
15 filed, says, "Let's you and I sit down and see if we
16 can resolve this criminal case."
17 THE WITNESS: Right.
18 Well, you know, where are the letters from the
19 corporate heads of the Flag Service Organization,
20 doing the same thing with Mr. McCabe?
21 THE COURT: I'm sorry. Where are the what?
22 THE WITNESS: The corporate officers of the
23 Flag Service Organization. Where's Mr. Ben Shaw's
24 letter to Mr. McCabe to sort this out? Why does
25 this necessitate Mr. Miscavige? This is against the
0531
1 Flag Service Organization.
2 THE COURT: Well, because as I understand it,
3 Mr. Miscavige is the ecclesiastical head of the
4 Church of Scientology.
5 THE WITNESS: Every one of them.
6 THE COURT: Every one of them.
7 THE WITNESS: Right.
8 THE COURT: Yeah. There's no disagreement.
9 So as I said, I can -- I'm not saying that
10 Mr. Miscavige did or did not know about Lisa
11 McPherson's situation when she was at the Ft.
12 Harrison Hotel. Because quite frankly, that's one
13 of the issues.
14 But this letter just simply says that, "I as
15 the head of this church, all of them, want to sit
16 down with you and resolve this case."
17 THE WITNESS: Right.
18 THE COURT: So how do you jump from that --
19 THE WITNESS: Well --
20 THE COURT: In other words, there's lots of
21 people who have testified that David Miscavige, as
22 chairman of the board of RTC, knew about Lisa
23 McPherson. There's just no question in their mind.
24 THE WITNESS: Right.
25 THE COURT: He would have known. He would have
0532
1 known because that's the way business is done.
2 THE WITNESS: Correct.
3 THE COURT: Sort of.
4 THE WITNESS: Correct.
5 THE COURT: Okay. I've heard all that
6 testimony. I presume you would testify the same.
7 But what does this letter add to this?
8 THE WITNESS: I -- you know, your Honor, I
9 think the only purpose of this letter is -- is just
10 to show what we were talking about earlier, when we
11 were talking about the bypass and -- and how, you
12 know, it's a pattern of conduct; how the
13 organization does business. I think that's the
14 purpose of why this is in here.
15 THE COURT: Well, if this letter has
16 relevance -- if this letter has relevance, it has
17 relevance to the, I suspect, agreed-to evidence in
18 this case, which is that David Miscavige is the
19 ecclesiastical head of the Church of Scientology,
20 including -- including Flag.
21 MR. DANDAR: Right.
22 THE COURT: Including all of the organizations.
23 MR. WEINBERG: The letter isn't relevant to
24 this proceeding.
25 THE COURT: No. It is not relevant to this
0533
1 proceeding, as I said, except that it might be
2 relevant to that issue, which I assume is an
3 agreed-upon issue.
4 MR. WEINBERG: The first church in the United
5 States within 200 years is indicted, it's not
6 surprising that Mr. Miscavige --
7 THE COURT: No, it's not.
8 MR. WEINBERG: -- would want to try to find a
9 resolution to it.
10 THE COURT: That is true, and that's what I
11 said. I don't think it has any relevance to this
12 proceeding unless it is to establish that indeed
13 Mr. Miscavige is the ecclesiastical head of the
14 church, including -- including Flag.
15 MR. WEINBERG: He's the ecclesiastical -- he's
16 the ecclesiastical leader of the churches of
17 Scientology.
18 THE COURT: Right.
19 MR. WEINBERG: The religious leader of the
20 Church of Scientology.
21 THE COURT: Well, ecclesiastical leader and
22 religious leader are the same thing.
23 MR. WEINBERG: Right. Same thing. He happens
24 to be the chairman of the board of an organization
25 called RTC, but he's the ecclesiastical or religious
0534
1 leader of Scientology.
2 THE COURT: Right.
3 BY MR. DANDAR:
4 Q Mr. Prince, is Mr. Miscavige the leader of all of
5 the Scientology churches as -- because he's the COB of RTC
6 or because he's the captain of the Sea Org?
7 A Because he's the captain of the Sea Org.
8 Q When Mr. Miscavige was the captain of the Sea Org
9 and the COB, of the for-profit corporation Office Services,
10 Inc., ASI, was he the head of all of the churches of
11 Scientology as well?
12 A Well, again, as your Honor correctly pointed out,
13 Mr. Hubbard was alive at that time.
14 Q Oh, okay.
15 A Shortly after Mr. Hubbard passed, that was
16 certainly the situation for a moment.
17 But immediately upon the death of Mr. Hubbard and
18 the ousting of Pat and Annie Broeker, Mr. Miscavige assumed
19 control of Religious Technology Center.
20 Q All right. And did he do that because he was the
21 chairman of the board of ASI or the captain of the Sea Org?
22 A Because he was the captain of the Sea Org. You
23 know, everything is done in the Sea Org with missions.
24 MR. WEINBERG: Your Honor, could he just
25 answer --
0535
1 THE COURT: Yes. He's answered the question.
2 MR. DANDAR: Judge, I have a document --
3 actually, it's a notice of filing.
4 I'm going to have to have the clerk mark this
5 notebook. And --
6 (A discussion was held off the record.)
7 THE COURT: All right. We'll go ahead and take
8 our morning break since it's very close to that
9 time. We'll be in recess till 11:30.
10 (A recess was taken at 11:17 a.m.)
11 (The proceedings resumed at 11:37 a.m.)
12 THE COURT: You may continue.
13 MR. DANDAR: What I had marked and what I was
14 about to hand the witness and the court, and not
15 have to make an extra copy for Mr. Weinberg -- which
16 I didn't because, quite frankly, he has all this,
17 but I understand what he's saying. He should have
18 the same thing I'm handing -- and that's fine.
19 We'll get that done over the lunch break -- is
20 Exhibit 130. It's a compilation of documents,
21 statements and depositions of staff.
22 But I'm only going to ask this witness about J,
23 which is the narrative investigation of Detective
24 Carrasquillo, April 15th, 1997.
25 MR. WEINBERG: I object to the use of this
0536
1 document. It's just -- it's a -- it's not a sworn
2 statement; it's not a sworn statement of a witness.
3 It's just her -- it's a hearsay account of what she
4 claims -- I guess summarizes what somebody would
5 have told her. That's not evidence.
6 THE COURT: Well --
7 MR. WEINBERG: It's not -- certainly not for --
8 I think where he's going is that he's offering it
9 for the truth of the matter asserted. And it's pure
10 hearsay.
11 THE COURT: Well, it would be true hearsay if
12 he's offering it for the truth of the matter
13 asserted, but I don't know what he's going to ask
14 this witness. So let's hear it.
15 MR. WEINBERG: All right.
16 BY MR. DANDAR:
17 Q Mr. Prince -- of course, we obtained this
18 document, you know, a year after your affidavit of August of
19 '99 --
20 A Mm-hmm.
21 Q -- when this was made a public record --
22 But in paragraph 3, the interview summary of
23 Mr. and Mrs. Ortner, O-r-t-n-e-r, indicates that
24 Mr. Miscavige was staying at the Ft. Harrison Hotel --
25 MR. WEINBERG: That's what I'm talking about,
0537
1 your Honor.
2 BY MR. DANDAR:
3 Q -- while they were there, around November 20th of
4 1995.
5 Do you -- here's my question: Do you know of
6 circumstances or other occasions when Mr. Miscavige would
7 stay at the Ft. Harrison Hotel?
8 A Yes, I do. Again, I'll refer to the -- to the
9 video that was played the first day of my testimony where we
10 were having a New Year's Eve event. He would be there for
11 that. He would be there for March 13th, which is L. Ron
12 Hubbard's birthday. They normally have an event at the --
13 MR. WEINBERG: Are you talking about a specific
14 year?
15 A -- and --
16 THE WITNESS: Excuse me?
17 MR. WEINBERG: About a specific year?
18 THE WITNESS: No. I'm talking -- he asked me a
19 question of when normally he would be there. I'm
20 talking about --
21 MR. WEINBERG: All right. My objection is the
22 question was whether he stayed there, not whether he
23 was there. Big difference. And in this case there
24 is no -- I mean, if this is being offered that
25 Mr. Miscavige was in Clearwater in November or
0538
1 December of 1995, it's pure hearsay. And he wasn't.
2 And if he was --
3 THE COURT: I didn't hear --
4 MR. WEINBERG: -- he would have obviously --
5 the state attorney would have done some
6 investigation on it if that were the case. And it's
7 not the case.
8 But the question was whether he -- whether
9 Mr. Miscavige ever stayed at the Ft. Harrison Hotel,
10 and Mr. Prince is talking about whether
11 Mr. Miscavige was ever at the Ft. Harrison Hotel,
12 which is completely different.
13 BY MR. DANDAR:
14 Q How did you understand the question, Mr. Prince?
15 A I understood the question as to at what times
16 would Mr. Miscavige likely be at the Ft. Harrison.
17 Q Okay. All right. Well, let's --
18 THE COURT: I think that has some relevance, if
19 it was anytime around -- in and around the time of
20 Lisa McPherson's stay at the Ft. Harrison.
21 BY MR. DANDAR:
22 Q So what events would he normally routinely come to
23 in the Ft. Harrison?
24 A There would be auditor's date --
25 Q Which is --
0539
1 A -- which is sometime in September; there would be
2 IAS~--
3 Q What's IAS?
4 A Excuse me. International Association of
5 Scientologists. They have an event in the summertime, I
6 think, that's around June or something like that, they have
7 an IAS event. The New Year's event. L. Ron Hubbard
8 birthday event.
9 Q Which is March?
10 A March 13th.
11 Some of the more common times that I can think of
12 that he would be there.
13 Q What about non-Scientology holidays such as
14 Thanksgiving?
15 A Not likely --
16 Q Okay.
17 A -- in my experience.
18 Q Okay.
19 THE COURT: And the reason he would be at the
20 Ft. Harrison Hotel as opposed to someplace else is
21 because it's the mecca of all --
22 THE WITNESS: Yes, your Honor.
23 The Ft. Harrison is a very beautiful hotel.
24 THE COURT: Is that -- mecca of all
25 technology -- mecca of all technology?
0540
1 THE WITNESS: Yes, your Honor.
2 BY MR. DANDAR:
3 Q Was --
4 THE COURT: Now, on a New Year's event, I
5 thought he was out in California on the tape that I
6 saw.
7 THE WITNESS: No, your Honor. That was right
8 in the Ft. Harrison.
9 THE COURT: Oh, it was?
10 MR. WEINBERG: You're talking about two
11 different tapes. The tape that you saw was
12 California. The tape that Mr. Prince was in, was --
13 THE COURT: In Clearwater.
14 MR. WEINBERG: -- in the Ft. Harrison.
15 THE COURT: Okay.
16 MR. WEINBERG: That was -- Mr. Prince was 20
17 years ago; your -- I don't know when it was. 2000.
18 THE COURT: Okay.
19 MR. DANDAR: It was less than 20 years ago.
20 BY MR. DANDAR:
21 Q But anyway, do you -- do you have any recollection
22 of Mr. Miscavige staying at the Ft. Harrison Hotel rather
23 than just showing up for an event?
24 A Well, when I testified earlier about Mr. Miscavige
25 and myself, Vicki Aznaran, you know, the regular crew coming
0541
1 into the Flag Service Organization and rearranging and
2 declaring some people, we stayed there at that time.
3 I mean, you know, whenever Mr. Miscavige would
4 come to the Clearwater area, as well as myself, we always
5 stayed at the Ft. Harrison Hotel.
6 THE COURT: What were the dates that Lisa
7 McPherson was at the Ft. Harrison?
8 MR. DANDAR: November the 18th of '95 through
9 December the 5th of '95.
10 THE COURT: Do you have any information that
11 would say that David Miscavige was or was not at the
12 Ft. Harrison Hotel on those dates?
13 THE WITNESS: Your Honor, beyond what
14 Mr. Dandar is presenting here today, I do not.
15 THE COURT: So regardless, if it weren't for
16 that hearsay document, you have no firsthand
17 knowledge or other way of knowing whether he was
18 there or not.
19 THE WITNESS: Correct.
20 THE COURT: Okay.
21 BY MR. DANDAR:
22 Q Mr. Prince, one thing I wanted to ask you about
23 that's out of sequence, and that is after you left the
24 Church of Scientology in 1992, did you have occasion after
25 that time to consult with Scientology attorneys?
0542
1 A Yes, I did. I was contacted by Mr. Mike Sutter,
2 who worked in the Scientology -- worked in the Religious
3 Technology Center. He told me that he wanted me to meet
4 with Mr. Earle Cooley concerning ongoing church litigation.
5 Q And who is Mr. Cooley?
6 A Mr. Earle Cooley was lead counsel for Scientology
7 during the early '80s.
8 Q And what date or what month and year was this that
9 Mr. Sutter asked you to meet with Mr. Cooley?
10 A You know, to the best of my knowledge, I do
11 believe it was 1994.
12 We met in Boston.
13 Q What was the purpose of that meeting?
14 A Well, I thought I was going to go there to speak
15 about current legal cases, because that's what they told me
16 they wanted me to speak about. But in fact, when I got
17 there, it became quite a different show. They wanted me to
18 reaffirm for them the fact that -- you know, the -- under
19 the -- reaffirm the conditions under which I left
20 Scientology, the documents and things that I was -- felt
21 obligated to sign to leave. They wanted to update all of
22 that again.
23 So they recorded me and --
24 And I -- and I guess I also found out that they
25 were having trouble in the Wollersheim 4 case, in that --
0543
1 and they wanted to know if persons such as Vicki Aznaran,
2 Lawrence Wollersheim, any attorneys, had contacted me to
3 give testimony concerning Scientology.
4 Q And as of that time, had anyone contacted you?
5 A No.
6 Q And did they pay you for your time?
7 A Yes.
8 Q How much?
9 A I think it was 28- -- 27-, $2,800.
10 Q Was that the last time you were consulted by any
11 representative of the Church of Scientology on matters such
12 as that?
13 A I believe so.
14 Q Okay. Now, Mr. Prince, you --
15 MR. DANDAR: And I am going to be jumping
16 around here.
17 THE COURT: You said this was 1994?
18 THE WITNESS: Yes, your Honor.
19 BY MR. DANDAR:
20 Q All right. Let me show you Plaintiff's Exhibit
21 131. And I have highlighted certain portions of it. I'm
22 going to direct your attention to certain areas.
23 First of all, can you identify this document?
24 A Yes. This is another Scientology issue type.
25 It's called an executive directive. And this is an
0544
1 executive directive concerning senior HCO Int. And it
2 concerns security situations and threat handlings.
3 Q Now at the top it has references, and it has a
4 bunch of HCO policy documents. Is that what -- am I reading
5 that correctly?
6 A Yes. There's four HCO policy letters. The FO --
7 there's one Flag order; there's one SPD, which is a
8 Scientology policy directives; two more HCO PLs, another
9 SOED, that's a Sea Org executive directive; and a couple of
10 more policy letters.
11 Q Okay. And the references for like the Sea Org
12 executive director 4234 international, it says,
13 "Coordination on security and investigation matters,
14 suppressive acts." Do you see that?
15 A Yes, I do.
16 Q Did I read -- maybe I didn't read that right.
17 A Well, suppressive acts is the HCO PO, 23 December,
18 '65.
19 THE COURT: What does HCO stand for?
20 THE WITNESS: Hubbard Communications Office.
21 BY MR. DANDAR:
22 Q And the last HCO policy of October 27th, 1964
23 talks -- or concerns physical healing, insanity and sources
24 of trouble. Do you see that?
25 A Yes, I do.
0545
1 Q All right. What does this document, mentioning
2 insanity and healing and sources of trouble, have to do with
3 security?
4 A Well, when you have a -- an insane person or a
5 source of trouble, potential trouble source within a
6 Scientology organization, according to its policies, this is
7 a source of great potential trouble for an organization, be
8 it a Sea Organization or regular Scientology organization,
9 and these gives -- it gives the steps of prevention and
10 handling.
11 Q Is "handling" a word that is used in the policies?
12 A Yes.
13 Q And in this particular checklist, it talks
14 about -- the second paragraph, where I've highlighted, uses,
15 "Make sure the situations are actually handled."
16 A Right.
17 Q Now, turn to page 2, letter G.
18 A Okay.
19 Q First of all, this list is below a paragraph that
20 says the types of security situations, am I reading this
21 correctly, where it says, G, "Attempted suicide cases or PTS
22 Type IIIs and any external or antagonistic connections to
23 these --" are these security issues?
24 A Absolutely.
25 Q Do you have an opinion whether or not this
0546
1 particular checklist would come into play in reference to
2 the Lisa McPherson matter, in November and December of '95?
3 A This -- the date of this issue is the 11th of May,
4 1991, and it's basically instructing the divisions within
5 Scientology organizations to coordinate with OSA -- Office
6 of Special Affairs -- to deal with the situations listed A
7 through O, Type III -- PTS Type IIIs being one of them, PTS
8 Type III being the Scientology term for a psychotic.
9 Q Mr. Prince, this is, as you said, dated May, 1991.
10 Does it surprise you that it references policy letters that
11 are written in 1959 and 1964 and 1968, et cetera?
12 A No. The words of L. Ron Hubbard are eternal to
13 Scientology.
14 MR. DANDAR: I'd like to move Exhibit 131 in
15 evidence.
16 THE COURT: Any objection?
17 MR. WEINBERG: No objection. I don't know what
18 the relevance is, in light of the fact that there
19 isn't anything about RTC in this document.
20 THE COURT: It'll be received.
21 BY MR. DANDAR:
22 Q All right. And Mr. Prince, let me show you
23 Exhibit 129.
24 I don't have an extra copy here, for some reason.
25 Oh, I do. Okay.
0547
1 Remember yesterday we talked about in order to get
2 the injectable Valium prescriptions and the chloral hydrate
3 prescriptions from drugstores, you talk about staff --
4 somebody filling out what's called a CSW, completed staff
5 work?
6 A Yes.
7 Q All right. This document, Plaintiff's Exhibit
8 129, do you know where this comes from?
9 A Yes. This comes from the Hubbard Administrative
10 Dictionary, which is a dictionary that defines
11 administrative terms used in Scientology organization.
12 Q Okay. And the definition of completed staff work,
13 does that fit within your understanding of what you
14 testified to yesterday?
15 A Yes, it does.
16 MR. DANDAR: Like to move 129 into evidence.
17 THE COURT: It'll be received.
18 BY MR. DANDAR:
19 Q Also Mr. Prince, you mentioned several times today
20 that -- when I was asking you about bypass and
21 Mr. Miscavige's role, you mentioned you had prior
22 declarations. Let me show you Plaintiff's Exhibit 132.
23 First of all, what is 132?
24 A This is a supplemental declaration that was
25 submitted in the Los Angeles courtrooms on behalf of
0548
1 plaintiff Lawrence Wollersheim.
2 Q And this is your declaration?
3 A Yes, it is.
4 Q It's dated December 22nd, 1999?
5 A Yes.
6 Q Is this one of the declarations you were referring
7 to when you said you -- in your testimony today, that you
8 had previously filed declarations on the matters that we
9 talked about?
10 A No.
11 Let me just scan it here real quick.
12 Q All right.
13 A Well, yeah. I think right -- starting on page 2,
14 under the subtitle Sea Organization, I talk about
15 Scientology missions, meaning, you know, a group of people
16 going into an organization, taking it over. I talk about
17 that.
18 Q And on page number 40, you talk about --
19 MR. WEINBERG: Your Honor, I object to this.
20 Why are we doing this? Mr. Dandar can ask him
21 questions, but this is just a hearsay -- I mean,
22 this is an affidavit. He's on the stand. I mean,
23 if there's something he wants to ask him about, he
24 can ask him, instead of saying, "On paragraph such
25 and such it says such and such."
0549
1 THE COURT: Well, I would normally tend to
2 agree with you, except we have affidavits, prior
3 declarations of so many people in this case, I don't
4 know why I would keep the prior declaration of
5 Mr. Prince's out.
6 BY MR. DANDAR:
7 Q But Mr. Prince, the command channels and structure
8 of the hierarchy of the Church of Scientology in this
9 declaration, Plaintiff's Exhibit Number 132, is it any
10 different than your testimony than you've given in this case
11 today?
12 A No, it is not.
13 Q Is it any different than your -- and the reason
14 why you reached the opinions you reached in August of 1999
15 concerning David Miscavige's role in Lisa McPherson's death?
16 A No, it is not.
17 MR. DANDAR: I'd like to move 132 into evidence
18 as Plaintiff's Exhibit 132.
19 THE COURT: I'm going to receive it over
20 objection, just as a prior affidavit that --
21 MR. WEINBERG: Right. I mean, I -- the
22 objection would be, normally, just buttressing his
23 testimony.
24 THE COURT: That is true. In other words, that
25 would be exactly right. And that would be proper
0550
1 objection, not hearsay or --
2 However, I'm going to let it in.
3 BY MR. DANDAR:
4 Q All right. Now, Mr. Prince, have you worked with
5 Mr. Michael Rinder in your tenure in Scientology?
6 A Yes, I have.
7 Q And what did -- how did -- under what
8 circumstances?
9 A Mr. Rinder was a member of the watchdog committee
10 during my tenure at RTC. He was a member of the watchdog
11 committee, a commodore's messenger, and he worked for the
12 corporation the Church of Scientology International.
13 Q What is the watchdog committee?
14 A The watchdog committee are the principals of the
15 Church of Scientology International. The principals of each
16 sector and section of Scientology -- if you look at a
17 Scientology org board, you will -- you will see it's broken
18 down into certain sections and sectors. One -- one sector
19 of Scientology is Scientology International. That means all
20 of the organizations that are not Sea Org organizations and
21 are not missions.
22 So you would have a WDC member, a watchdog
23 committee member, for the Scientology organizations. Then
24 you'd have a WDC member or a watchdog committee member for
25 the Sea Organization. You would have a watchdog committee
0551
1 member for SMI, S-M-I, Scientology Missions International,
2 et cetera, et cetera.
3 Q And who is the head of that watchdog committee?
4 A The chairman of the watchdog committee, during the
5 time -- my tenure in Religious Technology Center, was Mark
6 Yeager.
7 Q And did Mr. Miscavige serve on that board as well?
8 A No, he did not.
9 Q Okay.
10 A That board reported to Mr. Miscavige.
11 Q So Mr. Miscavige was above that board?
12 A Correct.
13 Q Now, Mr. Prince, based upon your experience and
14 expertise in Scientology, do you have an opinion as to why
15 Michael Rinder was meeting with Bob Minton to try to get the
16 McPherson case dismissed, as early as 1998?
17 MR. WEINBERG: Objection to the -- I mean, this
18 is pure speculation. It is -- it's -- I think it's
19 improper opinion testimony.
20 He says that he has some expertise -- which we
21 have challenged, you know, for a number of
22 reasons -- with regard to the religious technology.
23 Now he's going to be speculating as to why someone
24 would have been meeting with Mr. Minton?
25 Mr. Minton's testified regarding that; Ms. Brooks
0552
1 has testified in regard to that meeting at length.
2 THE COURT: I -- I understand. We've had some
3 opinions in -- I don't know why we wouldn't listen
4 to his, too. I mean --
5 MR. WEINBERG: I -- it's more frustration than
6 anything.
7 That's my objection. I understand that you're
8 overruling it, and I just wanted to --
9 THE COURT: All right.
10 MR. WEINBERG: Thank you.
11 A Sorry. I don't remember the question.
12 BY MR. DANDAR:
13 Q Why would Mr. Rinder --
14 First of all, is Mr. Rinder part of the Flag
15 Service Organization?
16 A To my knowledge, he is not.
17 Q Do you have an opinion as to why Mr. Rinder would
18 be meeting with Mr. Minton, as early as 1988, and of course
19 in 2002, to get the Lisa McPherson case dismissed?
20 A Certainly I have an opinion, based on experience.
21 Because like the Wollersheim case that happened here, and
22 the Mayo case, any major case that's being litigated in the
23 United States, irrespective of the corporation, the
24 decisions, the planning and the execution of legal is done
25 with OSA -- Office of Special Affairs, David Miscavige,
0553
1 Marty Rathbun.
2 Q All right.
3 A Lyman Spurlock if it -- if it involves corporate.
4 Lyman Spurlock was an expert on corporate entities.
5 THE COURT: Who is Mr. Rathbun? What is his
6 capacity?
7 THE WITNESS: Mr. Rathbun has had many
8 capacities. Prior to coming into the Religious
9 Technology Center, he was what was called a client
10 affairs; legal client affairs. And he handled the
11 legal affairs for the publishing aspect for
12 Mr. Hubbard in Author Services. When he moved to
13 Religious Technology Center, he became the inspector
14 general for ethics. Ethics --
15 THE COURT: Is that what he is now?
16 THE WITNESS: I'm not sure what he is now --
17 THE COURT: Okay.
18 THE WITNESS: -- your Honor.
19 But that position handles all legal PR and
20 intelligence as part of its duties for Scientology
21 organizations.
22 THE COURT: And do I recall correctly -- I know
23 we've had a vacation, and frankly some of this has
24 escaped me --
25 Is Mr. Rinder the head of OSA?
0554
1 MR. DANDAR: Well, Mr. -- at one time,
2 Mr. Shaw, who is the head of OSA here, was --
3 testified that he reported -- his senior was
4 Mr. Rinder. What his title was to be Mr. Shaw's
5 senior, I don't know.
6 THE COURT: Well, OSA would have a --
7 Okay. I believe there's testimony about that
8 in this hearing that he is the head of the Office of
9 Special Affairs. I think. Maybe not.
10 MR. DANDAR: All right.
11 THE COURT: Which includes legal.
12 THE WITNESS: Yes.
13 MR. DANDAR: Right.
14 BY MR. DANDAR:
15 Q Now, Mr. Prince, let me show you what's already in
16 evidence as Plaintiff's Exhibit 110, known as KSW News. And
17 if you could, I'm going to --
18 THE COURT: I don't know -- I allowed the
19 answer, but I don't know what the answer was. I
20 mean, the answer --
21 MR. WEINBERG: Mr. Shaw can explain it to you.
22 THE COURT: No. What -- what I think -- he
23 went off to tell us about Mr. Rathbun. I think the
24 question was why would it have been -- why would
25 Mr. Rinder have been called to this meeting. And
0555
1 is -- what is your answer?
2 THE WITNESS: Right. Because Mr. Rinder would
3 have been in that position, the senior person within
4 the OSA network. And OSA operates on a statistic,
5 just like other departments and sections within the
6 Scientology organization operate on. And a
7 statistic for the OSA would be a threat handled; a
8 threat being a lawsuit or a person that was
9 perceived to be an adversary against Scientology or
10 taken an adversarial position against Scientology.
11 So getting rid of a lawsuit would be something that
12 would improve conditions, you know, a statistic
13 going up. That would be a good thing for them.
14 So -- and that's what they focus and concentrate on,
15 handling legal situations.
16 BY MR. DANDAR:
17 Q OSA.
18 A Yes.
19 Q All right. The KSW News, if you open up to the
20 little -- I believe it should be in the middle -- there is a
21 list of matters that need to be reported up lines to RTC.
22 A Yes.
23 Q Do you see that?
24 A Yes, I do.
25 Q And there's an arrow that I drew --
0556
1 THE COURT: You all are too loud back there.
2 Go ahead.
3 BY MR. DANDAR:
4 Q -- next to PTS Type III?
5 A "Any person who acts PTS Type III, potential
6 trouble source."
7 Q Okay.
8 A And that is of concern.
9 Q Does PTS Type III include people who are psychotic
10 as well as people who want to leave?
11 A Correct.
12 Q Now, this publication, when was it published?
13 A 1994 --
14 Q And --
15 A -- is when the copyright notice is on it, RTC
16 copyright notice.
17 Q All right. So it certainly wasn't published after
18 Lisa McPherson died in '95.
19 A No, it was not.
20 Q Now, this reporting up lines of PTS Type III to
21 RTC, was that in effect when you were an active
22 Scientologist?
23 A Yes, it was.
24 MR. WEINBERG: Well, excuse me. What does that
25 mean, an active Scientologist? When he was --
0557
1 BY MR. DANDAR:
2 Q Prior to '92. Prior to you actually leaving --
3 MR. WEINBERG: When you were at the RTC?
4 THE WITNESS: Yes. Yes, it was.
5 BY MR. DANDAR:
6 Q Now, these meetings that you had with David
7 Miscavige and Rathbun and Mithoff, Aznaran and others, you
8 said there was a certain agenda?
9 A Correct.
10 Q And that the top of that agenda for each of these
11 meetings was what?
12 A Flaps.
13 Q All right. What was --
14 A And what the handlings were.
15 Q -- the next --
16 How they were handling the flaps?
17 A Yes.
18 Q What was the -- give us a list of -- in priority
19 of each meeting.
20 A Flaps and handlings. Then statistics, go over the
21 statistics of the departments, the divisions. Then you talk
22 about -- the next thing is talk about wins.
23 Q Wins.
24 A Wins. You know, successes. Scientology
25 successes. Successes on the job, successes within the
0558
1 organization.
2 Q And how often would these meetings occur?
3 A Once a week.
4 Q And this is just a meeting of people who were at
5 RTC?
6 A No. This is a pattern that is continued
7 throughout the majority -- all of Sea Org organizations.
8 Q That includes Flag?
9 A Yes.
10 Q And back in --
11 MR. WEINBERG: Your Honor, could I -- the
12 question was about Mr. Miscavige, and the answer
13 obviously was way broader. You're not -- I don't
14 think Mr. Prince was saying Mr. Miscavige was having
15 meetings on a weekly basis at all the Scientology
16 organizations.
17 THE WITNESS: No, no. That's not --
18 THE COURT: He's saying, when he was a member
19 and he would meet with these people, what was their
20 agenda? That's all --
21 MR. WEINBERG: Right. No -- but then the next
22 question was -- then what he said was, "And this is
23 done in all Scientology organizations," which
24 means -- I think what he meant was there's meetings
25 every week in Scientology organizations with people
0559
1 in the org. That's what --
2 THE WITNESS: The pattern of flaps and
3 handlings, statistics and wins, is a pattern that
4 every Sea Org organization has in their meetings,
5 their weekly meetings. Miscavige isn't at those
6 meetings. I --
7 BY MR. DANDAR:
8 Q But at the meetings that you had and you
9 participated in with Mr. Miscavige, were these meetings --
10 when you say flaps, were they just -- my question was, did
11 they just concern RTC or was it flaps --
12 A No.
13 Q -- of what --
14 A When RTC has a meeting about flaps and handlings,
15 it could include any aspect of the Scientology empire. It
16 could include the FSO; it could include the organization in
17 Australia if there was a threat in Australia of some org
18 getting ready to be closed down, or if one of the
19 Scientology organizations were raided in Greece or whatever.
20 You know, it could be anyplace.
21 Q All right.
22 A Because the problems were existing -- in the lower
23 organizations, their flaps --
24 THE COURT: You need to get to the point.
25 In your opinion, as somebody who was with -- in
0560
1 RTC, at the time you were there, would the Lisa
2 McPherson situation have been discussed at one of
3 those meetings.
4 THE WITNESS: Yes, your Honor.
5 THE COURT: All right.
6 BY MR. DANDAR:
7 Q Is there any doubt about that?
8 A No. And as I was getting ready to say is, the
9 reason being is the lower organizations have to report to
10 the higher organizations. The higher organizations have to
11 approve the handlings for the flaps; have to verify the
12 statistics. Then it goes to the next organization, who'll
13 do the same thing. And by the time it gets to RTC, it's
14 pretty much confirmed what the lower organization is saying.
15 And maybe the handlings may be modified, but you know,
16 they're pretty much all on the same page.
17 Q Is there any doubt in your mind -- as you sit here
18 today, do you question your opinions that you reached in
19 your August, '99 declaration concerning the involvement of
20 Mr. Miscavige in the Lisa McPherson as a PR flap?
21 A No. I haven't changed my opinion one bit.
22 Q And is that opinion solely your opinion or are you
23 being influenced by anyone to make that opinion?
24 A I base my opinions on my personal experience, what
25 I've observed, the written word of L. Ron Hubbard.
0561
1 Q All right. Now, let's jump now to 2002. The --
2 we left off with your meeting -- I believe you said you had
3 this rather un- -- not unpleasant, but bad -- heated words
4 were exchanged at that hotel, the Radisson on Clearwater
5 Beach, when you met with Mr. Minton and Ms. Brooks. Do you
6 recall that?
7 A Yes, I do.
8 Q And Ms. Brooks walked out to the parking lot with
9 you?
10 A Yes.
11 Q All right. I want to pick up from there.
12 When is the next time you recall having further
13 conversation with Ms. Brooks or Mr. Minton?
14 THE COURT: What -- do we have the date on
15 that?
16 MR. DANDAR: April the 14th.
17 THE COURT: Okay.
18 A The last --
19 MR. WEINBERG: I don't think he said that --
20 MR. DANDAR: Yeah. April the 14th.
21 THE COURT: Well, he said the dates were as
22 they were in his affidavit, 'cause he sat down with
23 a calendar.
24 MR. DANDAR: Right.
25 A The next time that I talked to them, I think, was
0562
1 maybe a week or some days later, when they were staying at
2 another hotel -- oh, wow. Windham, the Hyatt Windham Hotel.
3 I called and spoke to Bob and asked if he wanted
4 to come by to the -- 'cause I was having a barbecue.
5 MR. DANDAR: All right. And Judge, just for
6 the record, I am looking at his April, 2002 Jesse
7 Prince affidavit.
8 THE COURT: All right.
9 MR. DANDAR: His handwritten note is
10 April 14th, that's attached, 2002.
11 BY MR. DANDAR:
12 Q Mr. Prince, the handwritten note, did you write
13 that when you met with me and Mr. Lirot?
14 A Yes, I did.
15 Q Okay. And after that is when --
16 Maybe I'm confused. Let's hold on.
17 After that is when you had the dinner with
18 Mr. Minton?
19 A After I wrote this handwritten note is the Sunday
20 that I met with them at the Radisson.
21 Q Is that when you had that heated conversation --
22 A Yes.
23 Q -- at dinner?
24 A Yes.
25 Q Was that -- were you supposed to meet Mr. Rinder
0563
1 that day?
2 A Correct.
3 Q And who told you that?
4 A Mr. Minton, Mrs. Brooks.
5 Q And did you meet with Mr. Rinder on April 14th,
6 2002?
7 A No, I did not.
8 Q Why not?
9 A Because it was deemed by Mr. Minton that I was not
10 ready, because I was not willing to perjure myself.
11 Q And who told you that?
12 A Mr. Minton.
13 Q How did he want you to perjure yourself?
14 A He wanted -- he wanted me to come in and say that
15 you influenced me to write the August, '99 declaration that
16 I did; that you put words in my mouth. And he wanted me to
17 say that some meeting occurred where Mr. Minton was at,
18 where you talked about adding David Miscavige on as a party.
19 And he kept using this term of, like, "You have to walk with
20 us on this because we're going to show you what to do. You
21 know, we're the A team. We got to be together on this.
22 There can't be any breaks. This is what we're doing. This
23 is what I'm saying. This is what you need to do to back it
24 up."
25 Q How did you respond?
0564
1 A "I absolutely will not do it."
2 Q Did Mr. Minton ever indicate to you that he knew
3 that he was lying?
4 THE COURT: Could I ask --
5 Just one more minute.
6 What you're saying -- which affidavit is it
7 that they -- they, meaning Mr. Minton -- wanted you
8 to say Mr. Dandar influenced you to write?
9 THE WITNESS: The one where I wrote that
10 Miscavige had knowledge and culpability in Lisa
11 McPherson's death.
12 THE COURT: The one that dealt with the
13 change -- or the amendment of the complaint. Is
14 that the one he's talking about?
15 MR. DANDAR: Yes. That's the one he's talking
16 about.
17 THE COURT: That would have been the first
18 affidavit he filed maybe in this case?
19 Well, it doesn't matter.
20 MR. DANDAR: No. The first one, I think, was
21 the PC folders.
22 THE COURT: I know which one you're talking
23 about.
24 THE WITNESS: It was the second one.
25 MR. DANDAR: It's the August, 1999 affidavit.
0565
1 THE WITNESS: Right.
2 THE COURT: And he also wanted you to state --
3 THE WITNESS: That Mr. Dandar had had a meeting
4 with myself, Mrs. Brooks, Dr. Garko, Mr. Minton, to
5 discuss adding Mr. Miscavige on as a party.
6 THE COURT: Right.
7 THE WITNESS: And apparently Bob was saying,
8 you know, and we have to say that Mr. Dandar said
9 that the meeting never happened, and you know, we
10 were adding on Miscavige basically to try to force
11 Scientology into a settlement position.
12 BY MR. DANDAR:
13 Q Was any of that true?
14 A No.
15 THE COURT: Could we find out, since that does
16 seem to be an issue here, what he remembers about
17 whatever meeting there was to discuss adding
18 Mr. Miscavige as a party? Or are you not ready for
19 that, or are you not going to go there, or --
20 MR. DANDAR: Well, I'm trying to not invade my
21 work product as much as possible. But it is an
22 issue, and so I didn't --
23 We can ask him that question.
24 THE COURT: All right.
25 MR. DANDAR: I just don't know how far I want
0566
1 to invade my work product.
2 BY MR. DANDAR:
3 Q But Mr. Prince, do you recall having any meeting
4 with me, Dr. Garko and Stacy Brooks about adding on David
5 Miscavige --
6 THE COURT: I'm not going to let them get into
7 the extent of the discussion necessarily, other than
8 what we've done thus far in this hearing, which is
9 who was there --
10 MR. DANDAR: Okay.
11 THE COURT: -- and was there a discussion about
12 adding Mr. Miscavige, and who was in favor of it and
13 who wasn't? That's pretty much all that's been
14 discussed.
15 MR. DANDAR: All right.
16 THE COURT: And it's been discussed by a lot of
17 witnesses --
18 MR. DANDAR: Yes.
19 THE COURT: -- Stacy Brooks, Mr. Minton,
20 Mr. Garko, you.
21 MR. DANDAR: All right. So --
22 That's fine.
23 BY MR. DANDAR:
24 Q So was there such a meeting?
25 A There was a meeting between you, myself,
0567
1 Mrs. Brooks, Dr. Garko, where we discussed -- and I mean, my
2 recollection is there's been more than one time that we
3 discussed this -- about adding Mr. Miscavige on as a party.
4 Q Was Mr. Minton ever at any of those meetings?
5 A No, he was not.
6 Q Do you have any idea why Mr. Minton would tell
7 you, when you met with him in April, why he wanted to say he
8 was at a meeting to add on David Miscavige?
9 A Because the idea was --
10 MR. WEINBERG: Objection. If it's something
11 Mr. Minton told him, fine. But otherwise it would
12 just be pure conjecture.
13 THE COURT: That's true. If it's something
14 Mr. Minton told him, then he can discuss it.
15 Go ahead.
16 A Okay. The idea that Mr. Minton told me is
17 Scientology had several things that they wanted Mr. Minton
18 to do. These were in conjunction and coordination with
19 things that could be done to get the case dismissed.
20 Specifically, going after you. Specifically, you
21 were to be made the target of whatever stack of papers that
22 Scientology provided to Mr. Minton. There was five or six
23 things that they wanted him to do in relationship to you
24 only. And you were the obvious target --
25
0568
1 BY MR. DANDAR:
2 Q Why?
3 A -- to --
4 Because they wanted to get you kicked off the
5 case. Because they figured if they got you kicked off the
6 case, then no other attorney would pick it up and the suit
7 would simply go away.
8 Q And Mr. Minton told you this.
9 A Yes.
10 Q And how many times did he tell you that?
11 A Several.
12 Q Did Mr. Minton ever indicate to you that he knew
13 that what he was saying about me was not true?
14 A Mr. Minton was in -- in the -- in the very
15 beginning, Mr. Minton was in anguish over the -- the
16 prospect of -- of lying on behalf of Scientology for --
17 against you. Mrs. Brooks was in a panic and desperate frame
18 of mind to do whatever it took to extricate Mr. Minton from
19 just the assault that Scientology was enacting upon
20 Mr. Minton. And she thought that it would be a good idea
21 for Mr. Minton to cooperate with Mr. Rinder, with Mr. Rosen,
22 whatever they wanted, to get him extricated from the
23 Scientology assault.
24 Q Did Mr. Minton or Ms. Brooks tell you that --
25 Well, you said they -- let me go back.
0569
1 You said something about Scientology gave
2 Mr. Minton a stack of papers about what he needed to say
3 against me?
4 A Yes.
5 Q What --
6 A Or possible things to go into. And that's the
7 stuff that came from the Adams Mark Hotel, after we had the
8 meeting, after I went to see him again, after he lied the
9 first time on the stand.
10 MR. WEINBERG: Well, objection.
11 A And --
12 MR. WEINBERG: If this is --
13 THE COURT: Wait a minute.
14 MR. WEINBERG: If this is the same stack that
15 Mr. Prince testified yesterday that he never looked
16 at --
17 THE COURT: Right.
18 MR. WEINBERG: -- so how's he going to answer
19 questions about what was in the stack?
20 THE COURT: He's not answering questions about
21 what was in the stack. He's talking about what
22 Mr. Minton told him. That's all he's supposed to
23 testify about.
24 MR. DANDAR: That's what he's doing.
25 MR. WEINBERG: Well --
0570
1 BY MR. DANDAR:
2 Q You didn't look at the stack of papers, right?
3 A No, I did not.
4 Q So how do you know what was in the stack of
5 papers?
6 A 'Cause he told me. There were five to six things
7 in there that Scientology wanted him to do against you, and
8 you specifically, and you only.
9 Q Okay.
10 A And two of them were the check. You know, somehow
11 saying that you caused him to perjure himself concerning the
12 check. And then the meeting. These were two very important
13 issues to --
14 You know, I can't say that I fully understood it
15 because I'm not a lawyer, but this was very important that
16 they executed in that way.
17 Q Okay. And let's talk about the check, all right?
18 A Okay.
19 Q Did Mr. Minton ever tell you that -- after he met
20 with Scientology, did he ever tell you that the check was
21 from him; that May, $2,000 (sic) check for $500,000?
22 A