1
1 IN THE CIRCUIT COURT FOR PINELLAS COUNTY, FLORIDA
CASE NO. 00-5682-CI-11
2
3
4
DELL LIEBREICH, as Personal
5 Representative of the ESTATE OF
LISA McPHERSON,
6
7 Plaintiff,
8 vs. VOLUME 1
9 CHURCH OF SCIENTOLOGY FLAG
SERVICE ORGANIZATION, JANIS
10 JOHNSON, ALAIN KARTUZINSKI
and DAVID HOUGHTON, D.D.S.,
11
Defendants.
12
_______________________________________/
13
14
15 PROCEEDINGS: Defendants' Omnibus Motion for
Terminating Sanctions and Other Relief.
16
CONTENTS: Testimony of Frank Oliver.
17
DATE: July 11, 2002. Afternoon Session.
18
PLACE: Courtroom B, Judicial Building
19 St. Petersburg, Florida.
20 BEFORE: Honorable Susan F. Schaeffer,
Circuit Judge.
21
REPORTED BY: Lynne J. Ide, RMR.
22 Deputy Official Court Reporter,
Sixth Judicial Circuit of Florida.
23
24
25
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1 APPEARANCES:
2
MR. KENNAN G. DANDAR
3 DANDAR & DANDAR
5340 West Kennedy Blvd., Suite 201
4 Tampa, FL 33602
Attorney for Plaintiff.
5
MR. LUKE CHARLES LIROT
6 LUKE CHARLES LIROT, PA
112 N East Street, Street, Suite B
7 Tampa, FL 33602-4108
Attorney for Plaintiff
8
9 MR. KENDRICK MOXON
MOXON & KOBRIN
10 1100 Cleveland Street, Suite 900
Clearwater, FL 33755
11 Attorney for Church of Scientology Flag Service
Organization.
12
13 MR. LEE FUGATE
MR. MORRIS WEINBERG, JR.
14 ZUCKERMAN, SPAEDER
101 E. Kennedy Blvd, Suite 1200
15 Tampa, FL 33602-5147
Attorney for Church of Scientology Flag Service
16 Organization.
17
MR. ERIC M. LIEBERMAN
18 RABINOWITZ, BOUDIN, STANDARD
740 Broadway at Astor Place
19 New York, NY 10003-9518
Attorney for Church of Scientology Flag Service
20 Organization.
21
22
23
24
25
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1 THE COURT: Okay. Did you find whatever clip
2 it was you wanted to show?
3 MR. DANDAR: It does not exist on that tape and
4 in Hubbard's voice, so we're not going to play the
5 tape.
6 THE COURT: All right. You may call your next
7 witness.
8 MR. FUGATE: Judge, before that happens, did
9 Mr. Keane bring the other videos over for you to
10 review?
11 THE COURT: Yes.
12 MR. FUGATE: Okay.
13 THE COURT: There are five of them, however.
14 He tells me he -- he didn't, somebody that had put
15 them on a VCR.
16 MR. FUGATE: What happened was when you asked
17 me, I called. And it turns out that they hadn't
18 converted them to whatever you needed to see them
19 on.
20 THE COURT: They have. And they gave them to
21 me. But they said there are five of them and each
22 one was an hour.
23 MR. FUGATE: Okay.
24 THE COURT: So I don't know when I'm going to
25 get to them. Maybe this weekend.
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1 MR. FUGATE: Well, I don't know how long we'll
2 be going. They all involve Mr. Dandar, though, is
3 that correct?
4 THE COURT: I don't know. I think there were
5 several that -- I said -- I don't remember. He said
6 there were several. I said I wanted to see them
7 before they were released.
8 MR. FUGATE: But you don't have them?
9 THE COURT: I have them. Yes. And there may
10 have been a couple that were claimed attorney-client
11 privilege. I don't know what they are. All I know,
12 he sent them over. They're on the VCR.
13 MR. FUGATE: Obviously I had older information
14 because I understood they had two. And there
15 were --
16 THE COURT: Five.
17 MR. FUGATE: All right.
18 THE COURT: You may call your next witness.
19 MR. LIROT: Your Honor, we would like to call
20 Frank Oliver.
21 MR. WEINBERG: Your Honor, I want to address
22 something before Mr. Oliver takes the stand.
23 THE COURT: All right.
24 MR. WEINBERG: As I indicated before, we object
25 to Mr. Oliver testifying.
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1 And the primary -- first of all, the question
2 is, is he being called as an expert or fact witness.
3 That is number one.
4 But our primary objection is that in April of
5 2000 we -- or shortly before that, we had subpoenaed
6 to take the deposition of Mr. Oliver. The
7 plaintiff, Mr. Dandar, moved for a protective order
8 against us taking the deposition of Mr. Oliver and
9 several other people. And in the course of that
10 argument, on April 10, 2000 in front of Judge --
11 this was Judge Moody -- on Page 13, and I quote,
12 "Mr. Dandar said Frank Oliver is a former OSA
13 Scientologist. He's no longer a Scientologist.
14 He's not testifying in this case," meaning the
15 wrongful death case, "he has nothing to do with this
16 case whatsoever."
17 Based on that representation, Mr. -- Judge
18 Moody said, "I'm granting that motion for protective
19 order. You can't take the deposition of Frank
20 Oliver."
21 So to the extent that the plaintiff in this
22 case is calling Mr. Oliver to testify about this
23 case or about the allegations in the complaint, we
24 object. We -- we went through that exercise several
25 years ago and we were prevented from taking his
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1 deposition.
2 If Mr. Oliver is here to testify about this
3 conversation with Mr. Prince that Mr. Prince talked
4 about, you know, I don't have any objection to that.
5 But if he's being put on the stand to -- to
6 testify about Scientology or this case, we object
7 because Mr. Dandar already represented on the record
8 that he has nothing whatsoever to do with this case.
9 Now, to the extent whether or not Mr. Oliver
10 could ever be an expert, he's been offered on at
11 least three occasions, once in Mr. Prince's trial,
12 once in Mr. Minton's trial, and once in the Henson
13 matter. And he has never been accepted as an expert
14 on Scientology.
15 So -- so -- and there is dialogue, we went back
16 and forth, you'll see he was only a staff member
17 some eight, nine or ten months. And the last time
18 he was a staff member was apparently in late 1991.
19 But our primary objection is that we were
20 prevented from taking his deposition because of the
21 representation of Mr. Dandar that he had nothing
22 whatsoever to do with this case.
23 THE COURT: All right.
24 MR. DANDAR: I did not at that time -- that was
25 for the trial. This is a different hearing. This
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1 is a different subject matter. Mr. Oliver has
2 pertinent things to talk about, including
3 conversations with Mr. Minton.
4 THE COURT: All right. Then he will be allowed
5 to testify. As far as -- this is a different
6 hearing. This is not the trial, obviously.
7 One of the allegations in this hearing is that
8 the allegations in the -- really all of the
9 complaints except for the first one were -- were
10 false, known to be false and what have you. I don't
11 know that in 2000 that was an allegation. So --
12 MR. WEINBERG: Well, what was an allegation?
13 THE COURT: That any motion to dismiss, motion
14 to exclude counsel, motion -- motion that counsel
15 permitted perjury --
16 MR. WEINBERG: Not that. But as soon as the
17 fifth amended complaint was moved to be filed, which
18 was in -- whenever it was -- September of 1999, we
19 complained very loudly this was nonsense, that this
20 affidavit of Jesse Prince was -- you know, was
21 complete rubbish and there was absolutely no
22 evidence whatsoever that would justify naming David
23 Miscavige, A, as a party or, B, suggesting that he
24 ordered the death of Lisa McPherson.
25 So we -- we made that very clear from day one,
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1 long before we --
2 THE COURT: Well, there is a difference in
3 saying we object and we're going to file a motion
4 for summary judgment and we're going to answer this
5 and do affirmative defenses and file a motion for
6 terminating sanctions stating, as part of the
7 allegations, rather than just a summary judgment,
8 that this was fraudulent and false and known to be
9 so by the lawyer at the time.
10 Those are allegations that don't come along
11 every day. They just came when you filed your
12 motion. And as far as I'm concerned, if he has
13 information regarding that, that would be something
14 totally different.
15 MR. WEINBERG: You mean as of the time that
16 Mr. Prince did his affidavit in August of '99 when
17 the motion was filed?
18 THE COURT: I don't know. In other words, as
19 of -- whether or not it is false, and, therefore,
20 Mr. Dandar knew it was false when he filed it, and,
21 therefore, it should somehow be excluded, if he has
22 information to say it is not false, I think he
23 should be permitted to testify about that.
24 I don't know what he's going to say. Let's
25 just see what he says.
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1 MR. WEINBERG: Is he going to be an expert on
2 Scientology?
3 THE COURT: I have no idea.
4 MR. LIROT: Judge -- I didn't mean to
5 interrupt, I'm sorry.
6 He's going to testify as to his personal
7 experience. We are not going to ask for expert
8 testimony.
9 THE COURT: You are not going to ask for his
10 opinions?
11 MR. LIROT: I'm going to ask for his
12 experience, what assignments he was given. I'm
13 going to ask him to authenticate a number of
14 documents he produced pursuant to subpoena served on
15 him.
16 THE COURT: All right.
17 MR. LIROT: So essentially -- and candidly, the
18 purpose of his testimony would be to show that it
19 supports our allegation that Mr. Minton and what
20 we'll call this turnabout of Mr. Minton's position,
21 as we have alleged, is supported by what we consider
22 to be a routine practice of the Church.
23 And we hope we're able to support that by the
24 testimony and documents Mr. Oliver is able to
25 present.
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1 THE COURT: That is certainly new and did not
2 exist in -- I'm sorry -- in 2000. So --
3 MR. LIEBERMAN: Again, your Honor, routine
4 practice from someone whose last experience was
5 eleven years ago is not admissible under 402, I
6 think, and 404.
7 THE COURT: It does not sound like a religious
8 argument. So if you have an argument to make, tell
9 Mr. Weinberg.
10 MR. WEINBERG: I'll stand up -- well, the rules
11 are 404 and 406. You know --
12 THE COURT: I don't know what he'll say. Let's
13 let him go and see what he says.
14 Step forward, sir.
15 (Witness sworn.)
16 THE COURT: You may lower your hand and have a
17 seat.
18 Do you-all have any idea what witness of yours
19 this is number-wise?
20 MR. LIROT: I had it noted. I want to say
21 number 10.
22 THE COURT: I'll just put a number down. It
23 doesn't matter.
24 MR. LIROT: I know it is Day 30.
25 THE COURT: All right. Go ahead.
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1 ______________________________________
2 FRANK OLIVER,
3 the witness herein, being first duly sworn, was examined
4 and testified as follows:
5 DIRECT EXAMINATION
6 BY MR. LIROT:
7 Q Could you please state your name and spell your
8 last name for the record.
9 A My name is Frank Oliver. O-L-I-V-E-R.
10 Q And, Mr. Oliver, can you tell the Court how you
11 are currently employed?
12 A A graphic designer.
13 Q Can you please give us a brief summary of your
14 educational background.
15 A I attended high school in Miami, Florida. I
16 attended approximately three and a half years of college, a
17 year in Louisiana and two years in Miami.
18 Q All right. At some point did you become involved
19 with the Church of Scientology?
20 A Yes. In the summer of 1986.
21 Q All right. And can you tell us how your
22 involvement began?
23 A I was in Ft. Lauderdale. And basically I was
24 driving from a friend's house and saw a sign that said
25 "Dianetics, free personality test."
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1 And I had been always curious as to what that --
2 you know, the Dianetics book was about and what that subject
3 was about.
4 And I went in and took the personality test at the
5 Ft. Lauderdale mission. They called it a mission. It was
6 more like an old house with a big parking lot in front.
7 And, Mmm, I went inside and met the people that were there
8 and asked them what it was about, this -- this free
9 personality test I was always curious about. And that was
10 my first foray into knowing anything about Scientology.
11 Q Now, did you take any courses in Scientology
12 during your period when you were a member?
13 A Yeah. That is one of the first things I found out
14 is that it was -- the subject was about -- it was more like
15 a school in a room where people sat behind big tables and
16 studies than what I originally thought.
17 I had some idea it might be something having to do
18 with psychoanalysis or something because, you know, I picked
19 up the book and had seen something about it.
20 And part of it was a lot of these courses that you
21 took. And the courses are on different subject matters.
22 And they have a course on communication, for example. That
23 was one of the courses that I took where it is supposed to
24 help you be a better communicator, understand people when
25 they communicate, and how to control communication, you
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1 know, when you talk to someone.
2 Another course was on the subject itself of what
3 Hubbard called the eight dynamics.
4 There were a lot of these little courses that I
5 took right at the beginning. And -- Mmm -- the -- probably
6 on the fourth or fifth time I went up to Ft. Lauderdale,
7 Mmm, I met some people that were from the Miami org. Org is
8 their abbreviation for organization.
9 THE COURT: You can assume that I know a great
10 deal more about the Church of Scientology than you
11 probably know that I know. So let me ask you if
12 there is something you say that I don't know what it
13 means. Okay?
14 THE WITNESS: All right.
15 MR. WEINBERG: Your Honor, could I ask -- there
16 is some noise outside. Could he get a little closer
17 to the microphone?
18 THE WITNESS: The chair doesn't move?
19 MR. WEINBERG: Or just move the mike.
20 THE WITNESS: Thank you. Is that better?
21 MR. WEINBERG: Yes.
22 A So these people that came up from Miami, they were
23 there on what was called a mission. And what their job was
24 to do was to see what people were in this Ft. Lauderdale
25 mission at the time. They were on their own mission, see
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1 what kind of people were there that they could try and get
2 to come down to the Miami org, which is the higher-up
3 organization from the Ft. Lauderdale mission. It has the
4 more -- it has more advanced courses and services that they
5 offer.
6 And I met a lady named Paulette Culp, who is a
7 very nice lady. She told me about -- she told me more about
8 Scientology and told me there were more advanced courses
9 there and I could get what is called auditing. And she was
10 very interested in me coming there.
11 And she even said, "Well, you live in Miami. You
12 drive up to Ft. Lauderdale. Why don't you just come down to
13 the Miami org located in Coral Gables."
14 So from that point on, I didn't go to the Ft.
15 Lauderdale mission any longer, I started going to the Miami
16 org in Coral Gables. And that is where I did a few basic
17 courses there, as well.
18 And then I started a course called the Student
19 Hat, H-A-T. And the Student Hat course deals with -- it's
20 the first course you take in Scientology that has to do with
21 what they call the bridge. And on the training side is
22 where you train. And on the auditing side is where you get
23 the different levels of auditing.
24 Hubbard writes that in order for someone to truly
25 understand any subject matter, they have to first learn how
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1 to learn. And so the Student Hat course basically teaches
2 you how to learn not only their subjects, but any subject
3 you want to learn.
4 There is a lot of looking up words in the
5 dictionary, and it teaches you the barrister study. And the
6 course basically gets you to the point where you could
7 understand or comprehend a subject matter better by having
8 done this course. And that was the first major course that
9 I did there.
10 I also did, on the other side of the bridge, on
11 the auditing side, I did something called purification
12 rundown, which is -- basically it consisted of spending two
13 weeks in a sauna, and occasionally they would get you out of
14 the sauna and ask you some questions, and you would go back
15 in the sauna again.
16 And you finish that when you say you are finished.
17 There is no like you're going to be done in ten days. It is
18 not like that. You kind of have to go through these
19 processes in the sauna where you are supposed to have some
20 realizations and figure out that, you know, you are done
21 with the sauna. And after two weeks, I was done with the
22 sauna.
23 You had to spend hours in this thing. And they
24 gave you vitamins and made me drink mineral oil and calcium
25 and magnesium mixed together. That was my first foray into
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1 this.
2 And since I was a good student and interested in
3 the subject matter at the time, I was approached to join
4 staff and become a staff member. And --
5 BY MR. LIROT:
6 Q So originally you were a public member or what has
7 been considered public?
8 A Correct. At that time I was paying for services
9 and my training. And I was going to the org -- I mean, I
10 was going almost every single day, spending four, five, six
11 hours there.
12 So eventually, when they recruited me for staff,
13 the first position I had was working with Paulette Culp who
14 was a division called tech call-in. I was a tech call-in
15 person. What I did, they gave me lists of people that had
16 paid for services --
17 MR. WEINBERG: Your Honor, instead of a
18 narrative, could we just have some questions and
19 answers?
20 Could we date when he became a staff member?
21 THE COURT: Tell us what date this was.
22 THE WITNESS: I became a staff member -- it was
23 sometime in early 1987.
24 BY MR. LIROT:
25 Q All right. And is it a privilege to be recruited
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1 for staff?
2 A You would think that like in the regular business
3 world, you know, when somebody asks you to join their
4 company, it's a privilege. But after I saw -- they were
5 always going after public to become staff. They were always
6 looking for more people to join staff.
7 And I had a job. I had a regular job at that
8 time. But being on staff wasn't like having a job, they
9 don't pay you minimum wage, you get --
10 MR. WEINBERG: Your Honor, the question was is
11 it a privilege to be a staff member. And that was
12 yes or no. And we're having a narrative.
13 THE COURT: I think the narrative is -- is
14 responsive, so it doesn't bother me.
15 Go on ahead. Continue.
16 A It wasn't something I wanted to make a decision to
17 join staff, you know. I saw what the people on staff were
18 getting paid. Some were getting like $60 a week. At that
19 time I was making $45,000 a year, so I wasn't about to leave
20 my $45,000-a-year job to make, at the most, $50, $60, $70 a
21 week. I don't consider that to be a fair question in the
22 asking.
23 However, I decided that since I was interested in
24 the subject matter and I liked the people that I was working
25 with there, that I would join staff as a part-time staff
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1 member. So I was on what is called a foundation schedule,
2 which means you are not there as many hours as full-time
3 people. And I would go there at night and on the weekends.
4 I wouldn't go there during the day. I still had my regular
5 job. And I would go there at night and I would be a staff
6 member.
7 THE COURT: So staff members don't have to be
8 Sea Org members?
9 THE WITNESS: Not in a Class IV org. The Miami
10 org or org structure, these are people basically in
11 the community, just public people that join staff.
12 THE COURT: Okay.
13 THE WITNESS: And there are members of the
14 staff that are Sea Org members. There were several
15 members of our staff that were on Sea Org.
16 Later on when I was in OSA, when I was in the
17 Department of Special Affairs, my direct senior was
18 a Sea Org member.
19 THE COURT: So if most -- most of the people
20 that I have been hearing about were either called
21 public or Sea Org. I guess there is public --
22 THE WITNESS: Staff and Sea Org.
23 THE COURT: Staff and Sea Org?
24 THE WITNESS: Correct.
25 MR. LIROT: Judge, could I ask for continuing
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1 permission to approach the bench and the witness
2 with exhibits?
3 THE COURT: You may. As long as you have
4 something in your hand, that is fine. If you want
5 to approach him without something in your hand, I
6 want to know why.
7 MR. LIROT: Very good. We have a number --
8 I'll give the Court copies we prepared for you.
9 THE COURT: Okay.
10 MR. LIROT: I have copies we've already
11 premarked for identification.
12 MR. WEINBERG: Do I get a copy?
13 MR. LIROT: Yes.
14 THE COURT: So a staff could be a public member
15 or Sea Org member?
16 THE WITNESS: Well, if you join the Sea Org,
17 you're basically signed up for life.
18 THE COURT: I know that.
19 THE WITNESS: Your discretion -- where you come
20 and go is theirs.
21 THE COURT: I know all this. What I asked is
22 if you are on staff, you can then be a public member
23 or a Sea Org member?
24 THE WITNESS: Well, a public member is somebody
25 who comes in, does a course and goes home. A staff
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1 member is someone who has to be there at a certain
2 time, also does courses and services under the fact
3 they are staff members and they go home.
4 A Sea Org member is somebody who is in 24/7.
5 THE COURT: Okay.
6 BY MR. LIROT:
7 Q Mr. Oliver, I handed you a document we had marked
8 for identification as Plaintiff's Exhibit Number 136. I'll
9 ask you if you can identify that document.
10 A Yes, I can. This is -- I guess it would be
11 like -- this is something out of the business end, I guess,
12 of Scientology. This is a description of Department 20, the
13 Department of Special Affairs.
14 Q And is that what is commonly known as OSA or
15 Office of Special Affairs?
16 A Yes, the Office of Special Affairs, this is
17 actually the branch of the Office of Special Affairs which
18 is what is considered a Class IV org, which is lower orgs,
19 which is below like an advanced org like in Los Angeles. So
20 the functions of this department are similar to the
21 functions of the Office of Special Affairs.
22 Q All right. And at one point did you become a
23 member of the Office of Special Affairs?
24 A Yes.
25 Q All right. Let me hand you what we've marked
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1 as -- for identification as Plaintiff's Exhibit Number 137
2 and ask you if you recognize this document.
3 A Yes, I recognize this document. This is a
4 document that was -- again, this is another document that
5 was given to me once I was a member of the Office of Special
6 Affairs.
7 This document is a section of a complete printout
8 that was made of all of the staff members of the Miami org
9 at the time I was in the Office of Special Affairs. And it
10 lists which division, the name of the staff member, what
11 department they were in, their post, and whether they were a
12 full-time or day -- or day, meaning they worked part-time.
13 MR. WEINBERG: Your Honor, I have an objection
14 which I would like to state for the record.
15 THE COURT: All right.
16 MR. WEINBERG: I can either do it through voir
17 dire or state my objection now as to these
18 documents. But -- but --
19 THE COURT: He just simply asked him to
20 identify a document.
21 MR. WEINBERG: I understand. We put Mr. Oliver
22 on notice, we being the lawyers for the Church of
23 Scientology -- on May 26, 1998 when documents began
24 to appear on the Internet, we put Mr. Oliver on
25 notice that he -- when he left staff apparently in
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1 1991, he stole a series of documents, apparently
2 including these and the rest of the documents from
3 his hat.
4 I mean, obviously this -- this one we're just
5 seeing here, this is a staff roster. I mean, this
6 is a personnel document or private document. There
7 are various other documents. He stole them. He
8 didn't have any right to them.
9 We put him on notice. We received a letter
10 back -- he then hired Mr. Leipold. And Mr. Leipold
11 wrote a letter back saying, you know, "Come on."
12 But at that point there was no further
13 dissemination of these documents until today. And I
14 just heard, when Mr. Lirot started, that these are
15 documents that now Mr. Lirot has, quote, subpoenaed
16 for this proceeding, subpoenaed documents that
17 Mr. Oliver knows he stole from the Church when he
18 left the Church as an employee of the Church.
19 So we object to the use of the documents
20 because of the way in which these documents were
21 obtained.
22 THE COURT: You subpoenaed these documents?
23 MR. LIROT: Yes. He produced these documents
24 pursuant to a subpoena duces tecum.
25 THE COURT: Your objection is overruled.
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1 MR. WEINBERG: On cross-examination I can get
2 into the circumstances under which he obtained
3 these --
4 THE COURT: Yes.
5 MR. WEINBERG: -- documents?
6 MR. LIROT: Very good.
7 THE COURT: But are you trying to tell me that
8 you have a roster that has who works on what days is
9 a stolen document?
10 MR. WEINBERG: There is a whole stack of
11 documents.
12 THE COURT: You stood up and you started
13 talking about this is a roster of the people he
14 worked with and what department they were in and
15 when they worked. You stood up, told me this was a
16 stolen document.
17 MR. WEINBERG: I wanted to make sure that I got
18 on the record immediately what I believe is
19 happening, which is this entire stack of documents
20 in front of you are documents that Mr. Oliver --
21 THE COURT: And I am taking it that this is
22 considered by the Church of Scientology to be a
23 document that, if this man is on staff, could not
24 take home to make a copy of. Is that right?
25 MR. WEINBERG: That, and the other documents.
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1 Just as my staff isn't supposed to take home
2 documents with regard to personnel matters.
3 THE COURT: Okay. I understand.
4 BY MR. LIROT:
5 Q Well, Mr. Oliver --
6 THE COURT: This first thing is something that
7 says what is the Department of Special Affairs.
8 MR. WEINBERG: It is not the content we have a
9 problem with. It is the manner in which the
10 documents were obtained.
11 THE COURT: Wait a minute. I asked you whether
12 or not a member of the Department of Special Affairs
13 could Xerox and take home a copy that defines where
14 he works, or is that considered stealing in the
15 Church? I mean --
16 MR. WEINBERG: Well, let's go through the rest
17 of the documents. I just wanted to put my objection
18 on the record, because there is correspondence that
19 went back and forth. There is obviously a lot of
20 other documents that are in this stack.
21 THE COURT: Well, go on ahead.
22 MR. LIROT: All right.
23 BY MR. LIROT:
24 Q Mr. Oliver --
25 MR. WEINBERG: If I had the whole stack, I
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1 could go through them quickly. But Mr. Lirot is
2 handing me one at a time, instead of giving me the
3 whole stack.
4 MR. LIROT: I'll make sure he gets a copy of
5 every exhibit as it is tendered, your Honor.
6 THE COURT: All right.
7 BY MR. LIROT:
8 Q Mr. Oliver, I'm going to hand you what has been
9 marked as Exhibits 138, 139 and 140. And I'm going to ask
10 you if you recognize those documents.
11 A Yes, I do recognize these documents.
12 Q All right. Can you tell the Court what those
13 documents are?
14 A The first document, 138, this is a section of an
15 org board for a Class IV org which delineates the three
16 different departments under the executive division, which is
17 Division 7.
18 Department 20 is the Department of Special
19 Affairs.
20 Underneath the Department of Special Affairs are
21 listed all of the posts of the Department of Special
22 Affairs.
23 Investigation Section. And below Investigation
24 Section it says "Investigations Officer." That was my post
25 when I was in the Office of Special Affairs.
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1 The second document is a description of the --
2 THE COURT: You say second document --
3 THE WITNESS: Excuse me, Page 139. Number 139.
4 THE COURT: It is Exhibit --
5 THE WITNESS: Exhibit, sorry.
6 THE COURT: The "P" is for plaintiff.
7 THE WITNESS: Thank you.
8 A The Office of Special Affairs International. This
9 describes for -- I guess this would be either -- this
10 actually came out of a document -- a brochure that was made
11 for the public that describes the Office of Special Affairs
12 International and how it operates through the continental
13 liaison office down into the Department of Special Affairs
14 of a Class IV org.
15 So what you have is the structure of how
16 information flows up and down the chain of command.
17 At the bottom it shows that OSA Int is part of the
18 Flag Command Bureau. And above that is the commanding
19 officer of OSA Int. And above that is WDC OSA.
20 So you have the structure, how it goes from all of
21 the way at the top, to all of the way to the bottom.
22 THE COURT: Okay.
23 BY MR. LIROT:
24 Q All right. And, Mr. Oliver, if you could -- it
25 speaks for itself but if you could explain to the Court what
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1 Exhibit 140 is?
2 A Exhibit 140 is our -- are copies of the top one is
3 an IAS, International Association of Scientologists card, a
4 staff-awarded card for membership in the International
5 Association of Scientologists. Instead of -- if I was a
6 public person and I was going to join ISA, it costs $2,000
7 for a lifetime membership. Since I was a staff status 2
8 staff member, that card was given to me as an award.
9 The bottom card was an ID card that was issued to
10 me when I traveled to Los Angeles to work at the higher
11 level with the Office of Special Affairs in what was called
12 the can unit.
13 THE COURT: What?
14 A Can. C-A-N. The can unit. This particular card
15 had a magnetic stripe on the back which allowed me access to
16 go in and out of an area there known as the Pac Base,
17 spelled P-A-C, the Pac Base. This allowed me to get in and
18 out of the different areas that were secured.
19 THE COURT: When it says "Post DSA," is that
20 the Department of Special Affairs?
21 THE WITNESS: Right. And after that, I-N-V
22 means invest. So that lets them know what my post
23 was in my org when I was in Los Angeles. They would
24 see, well, what is your post. My post in Los
25 Angeles was I was -- I was a Department of Special
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1 Affairs investigator.
2 THE COURT: Is the Office of Special Affairs or
3 Department of Special Affairs one in the same thing?
4 THE WITNESS: Yes, it's the higher level of the
5 same -- same section of the -- of the organization.
6 THE COURT: But there is no distinction between
7 Division of Special Affairs and --
8 THE WITNESS: Department of Special Affairs.
9 THE COURT: Department of Special Affairs?
10 THE WITNESS: The only distinction is that it
11 is called the Department of Special Affairs. When
12 you are in a Class IV organization, when you are in
13 like the Miami organization, that is what it is
14 called for name function. But functions and duties
15 I had there were identical to the functions and
16 duties I had in Los Angeles working for the Office
17 of Special Affairs.
18 THE COURT: That is what they call Office of
19 Special Affairs?
20 THE WITNESS: Correct.
21 THE COURT: Which is more than a Class IV org?
22 THE WITNESS: Correct, yes.
23 THE COURT: Thank you.
24 MR. LIROT: Judge, at this point I would like
25 to move Exhibits 136 through 140 into evidence.
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1 THE COURT: Any objection?
2 MR. WEINBERG: No.
3 THE COURT: They'll be received.
4 (Discussion had off the record.)
5 BY MR. LIROT:
6 Q Mr. Oliver, I'll hand you what has been marked for
7 identification as Plaintiff's Exhibit 141 and ask you if you
8 recognize that document.
9 A Yes, I recognize this document.
10 Q All right, can you tell the Court what Exhibit 141
11 is?
12 A When I was recruited in -- it was late 1989, early
13 1990, I was recruited for the Office of Special Affairs to
14 be the investigations officer.
15 When they recruited me for this position, they
16 required me to fill out this form, which is called Life
17 History Questionnaire.
18 I had -- I made a copy of it because when -- when
19 they gave me this, I felt that some of the questions on here
20 were a little -- a little more than I ever wanted to answer
21 or put on a piece of paper to anybody.
22 THE COURT: This was for the -- once you were
23 going to join the Department of Special Affairs?
24 THE WITNESS: Yes. I had been on staff
25 previous. As I mentioned, I was a tech call-in
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1 officer.
2 After a little more than a year, my financial
3 situation required me to spend more time working, so
4 I routed off of staff. And at that time I was given
5 what is called a freeloader bill. A freeloader bill
6 is something they give you that once you join staff
7 and you leave, any courses or anything you took
8 while you were in Scientology, you pay them back.
9 So about maybe two months or a month and a half
10 after I left staff, I paid off that freeloader bill
11 and I came back as a public staff member taking
12 courses.
13 I then started doing some work for the Office
14 of -- Department of Special Affairs as basically a
15 volunteer. And that was from probably -- maybe
16 mid-'88, all of the way up until '89, early '90 when
17 I was actually asked to be a staff member. At that
18 time is when they gave me this to fill out.
19 BY MR. LIROT:
20 Q Did any of the questions on the first page, I
21 guess Questions 1 through 11, cause you any great concern?
22 A Mmm, well, not -- not really. I mean, not
23 anything on here -- nothing on here really bothered me on
24 this page, to tell you the truth. There was just -- I guess
25 they had to ask me these questions. So I didn't have too
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1 much of a problem with that.
2 Q On the second page --
3 MR. WEINBERG: Your Honor, my objection is this
4 is interesting, I suppose, and maybe you want to
5 hear it. But what does this have to do with the
6 case?
7 THE COURT: I don't know.
8 MR. LIROT: Judge, I think I would like to get
9 into some of these questions here. Obviously, part
10 of the theory of our case is that the OSA has
11 certain practices and policies and customs. And I
12 think it is interesting and certainly very relevant
13 to look at what -- what background information the
14 Church looked at before you are even allowed to
15 become a member of the OSA.
16 MR. WEINBERG: Except Mr. Minton wasn't a
17 member of the Office of Special Affairs --
18 THE COURT: I think part of the allegation --
19 at least as I recall it, part of the allegation is
20 the Office of Special Affairs would have been
21 involved with the Lisa McPherson case from the
22 beginning.
23 And Mr. Miscavige, because of that, would have
24 been advised. And Mr. Miscavige, of course, the
25 allegation is, then gave a direction. So --
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1 MR. WEINBERG: Except that this is questions.
2 What Mr. Lirot is saying is questions somebody who
3 might become a member would be asked. What does
4 that have to do with it?
5 THE COURT: I don't know because I haven't read
6 this.
7 Go on ahead.
8 MR. LIROT: All right.
9 BY MR. LIROT:
10 Q Question 12 says --
11 THE COURT: I dare say I am sure I heard a lot
12 of information in this hearing that will turn out to
13 be irrelevant.
14 BY MR. LIROT:
15 Q Mr. Oliver, Question 12 says: "Are you or have
16 you ever been a newspaper reporter or journalist of any
17 kind? If yes, give full details."
18 Do you know of any member of OSA that was actually
19 admitted that answered yes to that question?
20 A Not to my knowledge.
21 Q And I think that they asked you about your
22 criminal record. They ask you if you -- something about
23 drug use.
24 I think on the third page under 34 it says, "Has
25 your mother expressed any opinion against Dianetics and
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1 Scientology, or does she have any objection to your working
2 in connection with it?"
3 Would a parent's discontent with Scientology
4 eliminate somebody from consideration for membership in OSA?
5 MR. WEINBERG: Objection. Is he now asking for
6 his opinion?
7 THE COURT: Right. That would be something
8 that -- that I'm not sure he would know.
9 MR. LIROT: Judge, we would like to move
10 Exhibit 141 into evidence.
11 THE COURT: I'm going to let it be received.
12 MR. WEINBERG: I'm not objecting to the
13 exhibit.
14 THE COURT: I'm going to let it be received. I
15 don't know that it has any relevance, but -- but as
16 I said, I received a lot of things that will
17 probably turn out that are not relevant.
18 BY MR. LIROT:
19 Q Mr. Oliver, I'm going to hand you what has been
20 marked for identification as Plaintiff's Exhibit Number 142
21 and ask if you can identify that for the Court.
22 A Yes. This is a Sea Org contract that was given to
23 me when I was in California. I was -- this is probably the
24 closest they ever got to actually getting me to join the Sea
25 Org.
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1 I had agreed to sign it and to turn it in before I
2 left to some few individuals that had approached me when I
3 was in California about joining the Sea Org.
4 I had been approached earlier in my career in
5 Scientology by people wanting me to join the Sea Org and --
6 Mmm -- when they approached me -- when they approached me in
7 L.A., I had reservations about it because of my
8 experience --
9 THE COURT: He really is way past your
10 question.
11 MR. LIROT: A little bit.
12 BY MR. LIROT:
13 Q Well, did you ultimately join the Sea Org?
14 A No, I refused to hand this back in, the signed
15 contract. I didn't want to do it after I --
16 Q Were you at any point pressured to join the Sea
17 Org?
18 A When they first tried to get me to join in Miami,
19 yes, I was -- I was told to go to a room, auditing room in
20 the Miami org on the second floor, where there were two Sea
21 Org members there who were on a recruit mission.
22 And they kept me in the room for about three
23 hours. After about the first hour and a half, I -- Mmm -- I
24 felt very uncomfortable, because they made the statement --
25 THE COURT: I'm not sure what this has to do
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1 with anything.
2 MR. LIROT: Judge, I'll not even move that one
3 into evidence.
4 THE COURT: Okay.
5 MR. LIROT: I'll move along.
6 THE COURT: Okay.
7 BY MR. LIROT:
8 Q Mr. Oliver, I want to hand you what has been
9 marked as Exhibit 143 and ask you if you recognize that
10 particular document?
11 A Yes, I recognize this document.
12 Q Can you tell the Court what Exhibit 143 is?
13 A This is the hat pack that was given to me in Los
14 Angeles for the Department of Special Affairs, to become a
15 fully hatted investigations officer.
16 THE COURT: That is something I heard said a
17 lot of times. And I really never asked anybody what
18 it is. What is a hat exactly?
19 THE WITNESS: A hat is something that you do.
20 For example, your hat here -- you are a judge. That
21 is the hat you wear. It encompasses all of the
22 things you have to know in order to do your job.
23 A hat pack in Scientology is a pack of
24 information like this that puts together
25 instructions and policies that apply to your
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1 position in the organization. And you are to learn
2 these policies that apply to what you do, you are to
3 do the steps in this course. And at the completion
4 of the course, you are then qualified to hold that
5 position and you are acknowledged as being a fully
6 hatted staff member.
7 So this is basically your instruction manual
8 for your job, basically.
9 THE COURT: If somebody said, "What is your
10 hat," that means "What is your job"?
11 THE WITNESS: Correct.
12 THE COURT: All right. I may have been told
13 that before but I forgot.
14 BY MR. LIROT:
15 Q Now, what is the significance -- this said
16 "Investigations Officer, Full Hat Check Sheet."
17 How is this document utilized in you acquiring the
18 authority to be a member of OSA on the -- as an
19 investigations officer?
20 A What this does is it is something you have to
21 complete. It's -- like I said, it's the instruction manual.
22 You have to go through every step in here. You have to --
23 there are three lines next to every single step here where
24 you put your initials, then the date, then you are checked
25 out by another individual within the Office of Special
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1 Affairs to ensure that you fully understand all of the
2 policies and everything that is written about a particular
3 policy as it reflects on your position.
4 So you really have to know this stuff in order to
5 be a fully-hatted staff member for that particular post.
6 Q All right. And as you go through the document, if
7 you turn to Page 2, it says, "Section A, Keeping Scientology
8 Working," it has a "1" and an asterisk there.
9 What are those documents identified there?
10 A Anything with an asterisk next to it, you have to
11 do a star rate checkout, where on other policy letters that
12 don't have asterisk, you can just read the policy letter and
13 initial it and just keep going.
14 On a star rate checkout, you have to sit with
15 somebody, put the policy -- they take their policy and they
16 look at it and they ask you questions off of it. They just
17 pick questions out at random off the policy letter and ask
18 you for the definition of a word they picked out. They can
19 ask you for the definition of -- of a specific technical
20 word, or they can ask you the definition of the word "the"
21 if they want to.
22 Q And where it says "HCOP," those are Hubbard
23 Communications Office Policy letters?
24 A Yes.
25 THE COURT: Is that to be sure you have read it
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1 and having somebody sort of check out you have read
2 that particular document?
3 THE WITNESS: Correct. And they pick out words
4 at random, because if there is -- let's say a
5 specific word about something specialized and you
6 just kind of read over it and you didn't really
7 understand what that word meant, that kind of
8 catches those misunderstandings so you can fully
9 understand what you read, so you just don't say,
10 "Yeah, yeah, I read it," and you sign off.
11 They go, "What does the word 'keeping' mean?"
12 So if you have the definition of that word, then
13 they go, "Okay, you studied it."
14 THE COURT: And if you don't get it right, then
15 you have to read it again?
16 THE WITNESS: They give you what is called a
17 flunk. They tell you you flunk. And then they make
18 you go back and you have to look up that word and
19 make sure you have the full definition of it.
20 THE COURT: Okay.
21 BY MR. LIROT:
22 Q And this hat -- the hat checklist is broken down
23 into several subsections. Section A is Keeping Scientology
24 Working.
25 Section B gives you a number of key words. What
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1 is the import of those key words?
2 A This is like what I was describing a minute ago
3 about a star rate checkout.
4 THE COURT: Your star what?
5 THE WITNESS: Star rate, R-A-T-E. Star rate
6 checkout.
7 THE COURT: All right.
8 A Students that complete a course called -- students
9 that complete another course, that means you are
10 super-literate, don't have to do star rate checkouts
11 anymore. Once you do that course, you are considered fast
12 flow, which means you can go through stuff without having to
13 get a checkout.
14 So unless you have done that course, any place
15 where you see that asterisk, you have to get checked out on.
16 These words here are specific to the post of
17 investigations officer. So this is -- this is kind of like
18 the -- I want to say like the -- the key words associated
19 with this position in the organization. So they want to
20 make sure you have a full understanding of all these words,
21 in particular. So instead of committing these words to --
22 you know, just randomly picking them out of a policy
23 letter -- they have taken those words and delineated them
24 here as something that individually needs to be looked up
25 and make sure you have a full understanding of the
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1 definition.
2 BY MR. LIROT:
3 Q And is that because those words would be used in
4 routing slips or reports or things of that nature?
5 A They would be used in any context of that
6 particular position. They may not be used in other areas of
7 the organization, you know. Somebody in a tech area might
8 never need, you know, to know the definition of these words.
9 If they know them, fine. But for this position, they are
10 required that you know them.
11 Q All right. Subsection C talks about "Invest
12 Basics," and it talks about a clay demo.
13 Let me back up. It says OSA NW9. What type of
14 document does that represent?
15 A That is an OSA network order. Those are specific
16 documents only for people within the OSA network, the Office
17 of Special Affairs network. And that goes from WDC OSA, all
18 of the way down to the Department of Special Affairs in a
19 Class IV org.
20 Q WDC being the watchdog committee?
21 A Correct.
22 Q Which, as I think the Court is familiar with the
23 organizational chart, that is at the very top?
24 A Highest echelon.
25 Q What is a clay demo? Number 2 there, it says,
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1 "Clay demo, the definition of intelligence"?
2 A Clay demo is another tool to assist in
3 understanding. And it is used in all of Scientology course
4 packs and in the Scientology courses.
5 A person sits at a table. You have some clay
6 there in different colors and whatnot. And you are given a
7 concept. For example, definition of intelligence. So you
8 would actually take pieces of clay and make little stick men
9 and lay out some aspects defining intelligence, like maybe a
10 little man looking in a file cabinet. Say you do that with
11 clay, then put a little label on the file cabinet, put a
12 little label on the document he's pulling out, and maybe a
13 little label on the man itself, and put "man" and put
14 "investigator" there. Then you would have the definition of
15 intelligence written on a piece of paper and put that face
16 down in front of it.
17 And then the supervisor comes over and looks at
18 your little clay demo with all those little labels sticking
19 on it, and then they figure out from your little -- you
20 know -- little thing you created there, they figure out it
21 looks like intelligence, it looks like you are talking about
22 intelligence here, an intelligence activity.
23 Then they flip over the paper and they see
24 "definition of intelligence." And they say that is a pass,
25 which means you have the concept so well that you can
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1 actually create it in 3D so someone else looking at the
2 exact same thing can say, "Okay, I get it." So that proves
3 that you really got it. If you can create it in clay, you
4 really got it.
5 THE COURT: I never get it in clay.
6 MR. LIEBERMAN: Your Honor, I do have a First
7 Amendment objection to this. He's describing his
8 version of how Scientology works and what
9 Scientology processes --
10 THE COURT: Keep it to what it is you did, not
11 what you think it means to Scientology. What you
12 did.
13 And that would cure your objection, I take it,
14 Counsel.
15 MR. WEINBERG: Right. Just for the record,
16 it's my understanding that Mr. Oliver never
17 completed this course that Mr. -- this hat pack that
18 Mr. Lirot is going through. So to the extent that
19 he's waxing eloquent about this, he should confine
20 it to his experience.
21 THE COURT: Exactly.
22 BY MR. LIROT:
23 Q Now, Section D on Page 4 says "Department 20."
24 And I guess it gives a number of different checklists there.
25 And --
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1 THE COURT: What section are you on, Counsel?
2 MR. LIROT: I was on Page 4, your Honor.
3 THE COURT: All right, I see it.
4 MR. LIROT: I think, quite honestly, Judge, the
5 rest of the document basically speaks for itself.
6 All of the headings are there. And it gives the
7 sections, apparently, you have to be proficient in
8 and able to go through this particular hat pack and
9 achieve proficiency in these different areas.
10 Judge, I would like to move Exhibit 143 into
11 evidence.
12 THE COURT: Any objection?
13 MR. WEINBERG: No.
14 THE COURT: It will be received.
15 BY MR. LIROT:
16 Q Mr. Oliver, I'm going to hand you what has been
17 marked as Exhibit 144 and ask if you can identify that for
18 the Court.
19 A Yes. This is an investigations check sheet.
20 Q What is this document used for?
21 A This is a check sheet that comes out of the
22 Volunteer Ministers Handbook. It's a mini course that is
23 done -- in my particular case, when I became a member of the
24 Office of Special Affairs, the first thing they do is give
25 you a mini hat, which is basically a basic course you do so
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1 you can be instantly posted on that particular job.
2 So I did this course -- actually started this
3 course, and I was just about finished with it before I had
4 to go out to Los Angeles. When I went out to Los Angeles in
5 1991, I actually redid the course again from the beginning
6 because, you know, I had started over there and they said,
7 "No, we want you to redo it again." So I did the course
8 again and I actually completed this in Los Angeles in 1991
9 at AOLA.
10 MR. LIROT: I would like to move 144 into
11 evidence.
12 THE COURT: Any objection?
13 MR. WEINBERG: No. So this is the 1991 --
14 THE WITNESS: Yes, there was one prior to that
15 but it was left in Miami.
16 BY MR. LIROT:
17 Q Mr. Oliver, I want to hand you what has been
18 marked Exhibits 145 and 146 and ask you if you can identify
19 those for the Court.
20 A Yes, I can identify this. This is -- these are
21 ODC checklists. 145 is the short form checklist ODC. 146
22 is the long --
23 THE COURT: What is ODC?
24 THE WITNESS: Overt data collection.
25 THE COURT: All right.
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1 THE WITNESS: These forms are preliminary forms
2 that are used for an investigation once a target has
3 been identified.
4 BY MR. LIROT:
5 Q Up at the top it says: "OSA Int ED" and it has a
6 little dash. What significance does that line have?
7 A It comes from OSA International. It's an
8 executive directive. I don't know what the dash is,
9 something you were to have written in but they never wrote
10 it in on this one.
11 Q Where it says "Name," what is it that would be I
12 guess characteristic of someone whose name would be placed
13 in here as the subject of an investigation or an ODC?
14 MR. WEINBERG: Objection. He's asking for an
15 opinion again.
16 THE COURT: I don't even understand the
17 question. You mean you wouldn't put the person's
18 name in, like you -- he wouldn't put his own name in
19 there?
20 THE WITNESS: No, this document -- I filled out
21 plenty of these so I can tell you.
22 THE COURT: All right.
23 THE WITNESS: Once a target was named, they
24 would say, "Okay, you're going to do an ODC on," you
25 know, "Luke Lirot," for example.
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1 THE COURT: Okay.
2 THE WITNESS: I would write Luke Lirot's name
3 up there, and I would have the date I started doing
4 this form. Then I would go down the list here and
5 investigate every single one of these things under
6 "Courts: Federal, civil; public offices; marriage
7 records; library card," anything I can find to find
8 any information out about Luke Lirot.
9 THE COURT: All right. The "date started"
10 would be the date you started your investigation,
11 and "date completed" --
12 THE WITNESS: No. This particular form. This
13 would be the day I started this particular form and
14 completed this form. This could be part of a larger
15 packet of information on a subject.
16 So the investigation start date and end date is
17 just --
18 THE COURT: The same day?
19 THE WITNESS: Not the same day. But, for
20 example, if I started an investigation on Luke, it
21 could be ongoing, so this form where it says "date
22 completed" means the day I completed filling out
23 this form.
24 The investigation would have -- there would be
25 a lot more information when we're doing an
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1 investigation on an individual.
2 THE COURT: I see.
3 BY MR. LIROT:
4 Q Now, Exhibit 146 says the "Long Form ODC
5 Checklist." What is the necessity of having the longer
6 form?
7 A More information.
8 THE COURT: Tell me what "ODC" is again?
9 THE WITNESS: Overt data collection.
10 THE COURT: Overt?
11 THE WITNESS: O-V-E-R-T. That means
12 information that can be readily available that you
13 can get in plain light of day. For example, like I
14 could go down to the driver's license office and try
15 to get someone's driver's license information. Or
16 go to the library --
17 THE COURT: Overt, as opposed to covert?
18 THE WITNESS: Correct.
19 BY MR. LIROT:
20 Q Mr. Oliver, in the tasks, when you would engage in
21 the effort to fill out the short form ODC checklist, what
22 was the purpose for your accumulation of that information?
23 A Mmm, many times because I worked in investigations
24 we didn't -- I wasn't given the full picture. I was
25 given -- whatever information was given to me, that is what
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1 I worked on.
2 So if they said that we've identified John Smith
3 as someone who is antagonistic, we need to pull an ODC on
4 this guy, go pull an ODC on John Smith, he lives in Miami,
5 Florida. That is sometimes all I was told.
6 Other times I was told, you know, maybe this man
7 was running a squirrel group, or this individual was a
8 disaffected member, or this individual is suing the Church.
9 I would be given some information but not complete
10 information because my job was to investigate, report back
11 data, write reports and whatever other intelligence
12 functions they needed for whatever subjects they needed.
13 MR. LIROT: I would like to move 145 and 146
14 into evidence.
15 MR. WEINBERG: If I could have standing
16 objection.
17 THE COURT: Relevance?
18 MR. WEINBERG: As to relevance, yes, Judge.
19 THE COURT: I am getting confused. It is
20 interesting, but what does it have to do with this
21 case?
22 MR. LIROT: Judge, I think if you look at these
23 documents -- and I think I can tie it up.
24 Obviously, we have heard --
25 THE COURT: If you think you can tie it up, go
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1 ahead.
2 You have your continuing objection.
3 If you can't tie it up, I may go back and
4 revisit some of this. Okay?
5 MR. LIROT: Understood, Judge.
6 THE COURT: All right.
7 BY MR. LIROT:
8 Q All right. Mr. Oliver, I want to hand you what
9 has been marked for identification as Plaintiff's Exhibit
10 147 and ask if you can identify this document for the Court.
11 A Yes, I can. This document -- this was faxed to me
12 from Los Angeles to the Miami org when I was there. This is
13 part of my hat. This delineates the description, point
14 value and breakdown of all the stats that affected my
15 particular post when I was an invest officer.
16 There were ten stats specifically. This breaks
17 down each one of them and defines their -- what it is that
18 the attack is, what policy letters reference that particular
19 statistic, what the point value is for the individuals on
20 that -- on that -- in that particular section.
21 Q What is the importance of stats? Why would that
22 be an issue?
23 A Every individual in Scientology, whether you are a
24 staff member, a Sea Org member, or just a public person,
25 your production is measured by your stats.
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1 If you are a student, for example, every day,
2 after you finish a course, however many pages you read,
3 however many checkouts you did, they have a point value. So
4 every student -- for example, when I was in the academy,
5 when I was doing a course, every day I would have to write
6 down how many of the different things I did. And there was
7 a board in the academy, and it had graphs, and I had my own
8 graph, and I would put there how many star rate checkouts I
9 did and how many pages I read. And they were worth points.
10 So they measured how good a student you were by
11 how high up your graph is going. When you are a staff
12 member -- for example, if you were a staff member here at
13 the courthouse, they would say how many courses did you hear
14 today, or how many witnesses did you put on the stand, or
15 how many documents did you take in evidence.
16 MR. WEINBERG: You would be in trouble on
17 stats.
18 MR. LIROT: I think the stats have taken a hit
19 in this hearing.
20 THE COURT: I think so.
21 A So in the Office of Special Affairs, this is what
22 breaks down what my stats were. And they all relate back to
23 whatever the primary function of that position is. It is
24 stated at the top, which is called "Investigation Section
25 VFP," which stands for "value of a final product," which is
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1 what is the value of a final product of someone in this
2 position?
3 And it says: "A section that brings about the
4 failure of influence of hostile groups or persons."
5 So that is the function of --
6 THE COURT: Where are you reading?
7 THE WITNESS: The very top.
8 THE COURT: My very top seems to be blacked
9 out.
10 THE WITNESS: Well, this is the way I actually
11 got this, because when it was faxed to our office,
12 this was the tail-end of another report that was not
13 unrelated to this section.
14 THE COURT: Oh, I see.
15 THE WITNESS: Under the blackout it says --
16 like "number of well-done auditing hours" I can see
17 crossed out. See, that has to do with auditing in
18 something faxed before. It wasn't related to this
19 subject. So they just crossed it out.
20 THE COURT: Now tell me where you are reading.
21 THE WITNESS: Right here at the top
22 "Investigation Section, VFP."
23 THE COURT: I see.
24 THE WITNESS: That shows the two valuable final
25 products of this position.
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1 Then it goes down and breaks down what the
2 different stats were.
3 BY MR. LIROT:
4 Q Who is it that -- I guess they have different
5 points for different -- different -- I guess one point for
6 every attack? I'm about ten lines down.
7 A Uh-huh.
8 Q "This stat is counted one point for every attacker
9 plus one point if the attack is local, two points if the
10 attack is regional, four points if the attack is national."
11 Who is it that keeps track of that?
12 A Well, we keep track of it at my level. For
13 example, I kept track of my own stats for my own org and any
14 other org underneath me or -- excuse me, any mission
15 underneath me.
16 For example, the Miami org kept the stats of the
17 org and the Ft. Lauderdale mission at that time. These
18 stats are reported up the chain of command. They would have
19 gone to the CLO, which is basically the next level of
20 management in OSA, which would be, I would consider -- in my
21 particular case, it was OSA East US.
22 The continent is divided into two halves. There
23 is OSA East US and OSA West US. So our stats would go from
24 me, let's say, to OSA East US. OSA East US would combine
25 those stats with other stats from other orgs in that part of
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1 the country and they would go up to OSA Int. And from there
2 they go to WDC OSA.
3 So that is basically the way it is broken down.
4 All of the information is gathered from the bottom of the
5 statistics, so at WDC, they have all of the statistics
6 compiled of all of the attacks that are going against
7 various organizations and various individuals. And it is
8 all handled by them.
9 THE COURT: WDC is watchdog --
10 THE WITNESS: Watchdog committee. That is
11 correct. They're the top echelon. WDC OSA.
12 BY MR. LIROT:
13 Q I guess the middle -- a little below the middle of
14 the first page, going over to the second page, it has
15 "Category of attacks are listed below."
16 If you, as a member of OSA or in the
17 investigations section, would you go out and just identify
18 for yourself some activity that you need to be an attack?
19 Or would you be assigned a special project that fill into
20 one of these subsections?
21 MR. WEINBERG: Objection. He needs to speak
22 about his personal experience, instead of giving
23 some hypothetical.
24 MR. LIROT: That is exactly --
25 MR. WEINBERG: Again, I don't know what this
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1 has to do with anything.
2 THE COURT: I don't, either.
3 MR. WEINBERG: All right.
4 THE COURT: I have given Mr. Lirot the benefit
5 of the doubt -- he hasn't been here -- that he's
6 going to tie it up. If he doesn't, why he doesn't.
7 So keep this to your personal level.
8 THE WITNESS: Yes, ma'am, I will.
9 A Most of the time what was given to me were either
10 direct assignments from either the OSA US level which would
11 be A -- the letter A Programs Aid East U.S. And that was a
12 lady by the name of Toni, T-O-N-I, Charambis (phonetic). I
13 don't know how to spell the last name. I think it starts
14 with C-H.
15 She would sometimes speak to me directly, or she
16 would speak to my senior -- the direct person over me in my
17 org, which is the DSA, which was Tracy Pase, P-A-S-E. She
18 was a Sea Org member.
19 They would -- they would be the ones giving me
20 assignments. But I had also gotten other assignments from
21 people higher up the chain of command. There was a lady by
22 the name of Kirsten who also used to call me. I think she
23 was an OSA staff security officer.
24 And they would give me targets. They would say,
25 "We want an ODC on, let's say, Michael Langon. We want an
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1 ODC on Kerry Gleason."
2 They would assign me to do investigations on
3 individuals. And they would say, "Okay, such and such a
4 person made a threat to the organization." Or, "We got a
5 call and complaint from such and such a person." Whatever
6 it was that they needed investigating they would give to me.
7 I wouldn't actually go out looking for things to
8 investigate. It never happened that way. There was always
9 plenty of names on the list of people that were subjects of
10 Scientology, or things would come up. And that is how I
11 would address those issues. I would never actively go out
12 seeking, you know --
13 BY MR. LIROT:
14 Q Number 3 says: "A suit filed against a church
15 entity or individual."
16 Obviously, you saw the subpoena. You were handed
17 a case involving the Church or an entity related to the
18 Church.
19 Do you have any independent knowledge that any
20 individual associated with the lawsuit against the Church
21 would not be the result of an investigation?
22 MR. WEINBERG: Objection. That -- I mean, that
23 is a hypothetical. I mean, I didn't even understand
24 what he means. He's talking about -- whatever that
25 is, overt this or that when you have court records.
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1 Is he suggesting that Mr. Dandar or I don't
2 have some ability to search court records and
3 bankruptcy files and things like that with regard to
4 any witness that -- that testifies?
5 THE COURT: I don't think he's suggesting that.
6 I think what he's suggesting -- I think what he
7 asked is whether or not anyone who filed a suit
8 against the Church would -- would have an ODC.
9 MR. LIROT: An ODC.
10 MR. WEINBERG: But that is a hypothetical. If
11 he can cite his own experience as to any particular
12 lawsuit that he was aware of --
13 THE COURT: How long did you work in this
14 department?
15 THE WITNESS: Mmm, as an actual staff member, I
16 think it was about two years.
17 THE COURT: Two years?
18 THE WITNESS: Yes.
19 THE COURT: During that two-year period of
20 time, were you ever asked to do an ODC on someone
21 who filed a lawsuit against the Church?
22 THE WITNESS: Yes.
23 THE COURT: Did you know other people in this
24 department? I mean, it seemed like that would be
25 fairly common, from what he's saying. I don't think
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1 you have to be an expert for that. The man worked
2 there two years.
3 MR. WEINBERG: I think he just answered the
4 question.
5 THE WITNESS: I have done lawsuits -- I mean
6 investigations on people that filed lawsuits against
7 Scientology.
8 THE COURT: Okay.
9 MR. LIROT: Judge, I would like to move Exhibit
10 147 into evidence.
11 THE COURT: Okay. Subject to your connecting
12 it up.
13 MR. LIEBERMAN: Well, your Honor, in addition
14 to the relevance objection, there is a cumulative --
15 a cumulative aspect of this where this -- the
16 plaintiff is trying to go into every aspect of the
17 management, the organization, the beliefs and
18 practices of Scientology religion.
19 And there is a point at which the entanglement
20 becomes a real constitutional problem.
21 Now, I know that there are serious allegations.
22 We've brought a serious motion. But just because
23 the Church has alleged that Mr. Dandar suborned
24 perjury and permitted perjury, and just because the
25 Church alleged that he made a bogus allegation of
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1 murder, which he --
2 THE COURT: And bogus allegation that David
3 Miscavige knew about this, and on and on.
4 MR. LIEBERMAN: But that doesn't open the
5 Church up to waiving all its First Amendment
6 protections --
7 THE COURT: I haven't heard this man violate
8 the First Amendment once yet. He talked about what
9 he did when he was a member of this church.
10 MR. LIEBERMAN: I'm talking about --
11 THE COURT: He hasn't interpreted any church
12 policy. He has done nothing except say he was a
13 member of this church, he had a certain position and
14 this is what he did. That is not a violation of the
15 First Amendment.
16 MR. LIEBERMAN: When the Court begins to
17 inquire into every aspect of the organization and
18 administration of a church, and the relevance is so
19 questionable that no one in this courtroom yet knows
20 what it is, it does become an entanglement problem,
21 your Honor.
22 THE COURT: Well, your objection is noted.
23 It's preserved.
24 MR. LIEBERMAN: Thank you.
25 THE COURT: But I have not heard the first
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1 First Amendment violation out of this man yet.
2 MR. LIROT: In short response, we are not
3 looking for anything that deals with the religiosity
4 of this church.
5 THE COURT: Exactly right.
6 MR. LIROT: The Church is entitled to whatever
7 rights it holds dear and wants to embrace.
8 We are talking about specific practices. And
9 obviously the allegations we've made, our concerns
10 are not what has been alleged against Mr. Dandar.
11 Our concerns and the reason we think this has
12 relevance is --
13 THE COURT: Sit down, Counselor. You'll get
14 your turn.
15 MR. LIROT: Our concerns go directly to why we
16 think Mr. Minton turned it around. We're going
17 towards what we think he described as the
18 terminator, and we're going into great depth into
19 what we think supports his statements on the stand
20 in this hearing.
21 We are not making an attack on the Church.
22 We're not touching anything that we think deals with
23 religiosity. These are customs and practices that
24 cause us concerns in this hearing and I think we can
25 tie it in.
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1 THE COURT: All right. Go ahead.
2 MR. LIEBERMAN: Just -- cases we briefed for
3 your Honor don't talk about just religious belief.
4 Religious belief, governance, administrative
5 procedure, et cetera, of the Church. There is a
6 protection between church and state, judiciary and
7 church, in terms of where inquiry and investigation
8 of how churches operate.
9 And I'm not saying that is an absolute wall.
10 We all know that the wall has its -- its windows.
11 And I'm not going to try and argue the pure
12 Jeffersonian position of an absolute wall to your
13 Honor.
14 But there are limits. And I submit to your
15 Honor that this -- what the plaintiff is doing is
16 going well beyond those limits.
17 THE COURT: All right. Continue.
18 MR. LIROT: Very good.
19 BY MR. LIROT:
20 Q Mr. Oliver, I want to hand you what has been
21 marked as Plaintiff's Exhibit 148 and ask you if you can
22 identify that for the Court.
23 A Yes, I can identify this. This is a check sheet
24 for a noisy invest drill.
25 Q What is a noisy invest?
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1 A A noisy invest is an investigation done without
2 the aid or benefit of stealth, to be quite honest. It is
3 something you would do and you wouldn't make it a secret if
4 I was doing an investigation like this. I -- you know, I
5 would operate in the open and let the --
6 THE COURT: Believe it or not, we've heard this
7 testimony.
8 A -- and let the individual know I was investigating
9 them.
10 THE COURT: Which means I don't need to hear it
11 again.
12 MR. LIROT: Judge, I'll move Exhibit 148 into
13 evidence.
14 THE COURT: Subject to the same, if you can
15 connect it up somehow.
16 BY MR. LIROT:
17 Q Mr. Oliver, I'm going to hand you what has been
18 identified as Plaintiff's Exhibit 149 and ask if you can
19 identify this for the Court.
20 A Yes, I can. This is a frequent flier club hat.
21 This is an instruction list that was given to me --
22 actually, I think faxed to our office. Yes, this was faxed.
23 Q What is the purpose of this document?
24 A This is actually an instruction that was sent to
25 us from Support Chief OSA US.
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1 And it calls for instruction on how to create what
2 is called a suitable guise in pretending that you are
3 somebody else in order to obtain information on that
4 individual's itinerary and frequent flier -- under the guise
5 of asking for your frequent flier mile information.
6 So I could pretend, let's say, I was you. I would
7 call the airlines with some of the information that I
8 gleaned from other sources, pretend I'm you, ask to check my
9 frequent flier miles, and then say, "By the way, let me go
10 over my current itinerary."
11 And the airline would feed me back what your
12 current itinerary was as if I was you. Then I would know
13 where you were going and how you were going to get there.
14 Q So would OSA members, on occasion, be at the
15 airport to greet people that they felt were targets of
16 investigations?
17 A Mmm, from my personal experience, having done this
18 type of information, having done this type of work, yes.
19 People would be there from OSA either surveilling or
20 watching whoever the subject was.
21 MR. LIROT: Judge, I would like to move Exhibit
22 149 into evidence.
23 THE COURT: All right. That does have
24 relevance. Mr. Minton testified to that occurring.
25 So I suppose to the extent that it may be disputed,
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1 that would have some relevance.
2 BY MR. LIROT:
3 Q Mr. Oliver, I'm going to hand you what has been
4 marked as Exhibit Number 150, ask if you can identify that
5 for the Court.
6 A Yes, I can. These are Office of Special Affairs
7 network orders that were part of the hat pack that I -- that
8 were shown to you or entered into evidence, I guess,
9 earlier. These are some of the issues which would be the
10 policy letters that directly relate to the hat pack.
11 These -- each one of them is of a different
12 subject matter. And these are only for distribution within
13 the OSA network, and not for distribution to other staff,
14 other Sea Org or public.
15 Q Let me turn your attention to the fourth page --
16 fifth page, I'm sorry, the OSA Network Order 15,
17 confidential black propaganda.
18 THE COURT: What page are you on?
19 MR. LIROT: I'm on the fifth page in, Judge.
20 These aren't numbered. These are different network
21 orders. And we felt we would file them as a
22 composite exhibit.
23 THE COURT: All right.
24 THE WITNESS: These are also referenced in the
25 check sheet. If you look on the check sheet, you'll
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1 see these orders are referenced to the check sheet.
2 THE COURT: Is this a page -- oh, black
3 propaganda?
4 THE WITNESS: Correct.
5 THE COURT: Okay.
6 BY MR. LIROT:
7 Q Now, these are the network orders that you are
8 required to familiarize yourself with as part of that hat
9 pack, is that correct?
10 A Yes. That is correct.
11 MR. LIROT: Judge, I would like to enter this
12 into evidence as Exhibit Number 150.
13 THE COURT: It will be received, subject to
14 being connected up.
15 BY MR. LIROT:
16 Q Mr. Oliver, I'm going to hand you what we marked
17 as Exhibit Number 151 and ask if you can identify this
18 document for the Court.
19 A Yes, I can. This is on -- it is an HCO policy
20 letter from PR Series 18 entitled "How to handle black
21 propaganda."
22 Q Now, did you have to demonstrate some proficiency
23 in the contents of this document in order to be in the
24 investigations department?
25 A I had to read it, had to understand it, know what
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1 it meant. It required me to know exactly what was on here
2 and be able to identify black propaganda, as such.
3 Q What is black propaganda?
4 A It's ideas that are used to destroy someone's
5 reputation or their belief in something.
6 MR. LIROT: Judge, I would like to move this
7 into evidence as Exhibit Number 151.
8 MR. WEINBERG: The last one? You know, we --
9 we -- you know, we have the relevance objection.
10 But, I mean, it is interesting when you read
11 it, the black propaganda is propaganda against the
12 Church of Scientology.
13 THE COURT: It will be received.
14 BY MR. LIROT:
15 Q Mr. Oliver, I want to hand you what we've marked
16 as Exhibit 152 and ask if you can identify this as -- this
17 document for the Court.
18 A This is another HCO policy letter from PR Series 7
19 called black PR.
20 Q In your participation as a member of the
21 investigations division of OSA, are you familiar with black
22 PR being used against people outside the Church?
23 A When you say people outside the Church, what do
24 you mean?
25 THE COURT: Non-Scientologist.
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1 A Non-Scientologist? Okay. Yes.
2 BY MR. LIROT:
3 Q All right. Can you give us some examples of that,
4 examples you participated in or you are aware people
5 participated in?
6 A Well, information that was gotten on individuals
7 was used -- how it works is this. Intelligence gathers the
8 information, anything that we can get on the individual
9 through different sources.
10 Earlier I talked about ODC. There is also
11 something called CDC, which is covert data collection. And
12 we used private investigators ourselves to gather covert
13 data collection on individuals.
14 For example, we had a private investigator by the
15 name of Margie Delertson (phonetic) who worked for us out of
16 Miami who was gathering covert data for us several different
17 ways. When -- for example, it was ordered one time we
18 needed a D line on an individual. A D line --
19 THE COURT: Why do I need to know all this?
20 What was the question?
21 MR. LIROT: Judge, I think what we're doing is
22 we're taking -- through this document, we're going
23 from the overt data collection which we already
24 talked about, this document, if you go down about a
25 third of the way, it says "Intelligence, covert,"
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1 and he made the transition into talking about some
2 of the covert investigation that we think is the
3 routine practice of OSA members that they use
4 against people for whatever reasons they think are
5 appropriate.
6 MR. WEINBERG: Well, there you go, if that is
7 what he's offering this for is routine practice,
8 this man was there, I think the records will show,
9 for less than two years, left in 1991. How is it
10 that he's going to say something that is routine for
11 purposes of being admissible in 2002?
12 THE COURT: I don't know. How many years does
13 it take before it becomes routine if somebody is
14 working there every day?
15 MR. WEINBERG: Well, your Honor, it's -- under
16 the rules, it is -- he's way too far removed to be
17 offered for pattern of practice or routine. He is.
18 And I think we submitted a brief on this a long time
19 ago.
20 THE COURT: I don't know -- I'm sorry, but I
21 don't even recall that has come up until today.
22 Maybe it has. Maybe it came up in something else.
23 MR. WEINBERG: I think it did. We submitted
24 something on the rule --
25 THE COURT: You can understand why I might not
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1 remember it.
2 MR. WEINBERG: That is why I can't remember it
3 precisely. But my recollection was it had to do
4 with Rule -- you know -- 404 and 406.
5 MR. MOXON: I can tell you where it came up.
6 It came up in the context -- it came up in the
7 context when we were trying to disqualify
8 Mr. Prince. And there was a lot of case law in the
9 motions we filed -- and I guess that was never
10 really argued at that time -- but with respect to
11 how old the information is upon which someone can
12 base their information.
13 And there was Florida authority and some cases
14 indicating pattern of practice of several months is
15 too old and it is not acceptable for pattern of
16 practice information. But certainly several years
17 is too long. And this gentleman is over ten
18 years -- he has been gone over ten years, and
19 actually only worked in the area he was talking of
20 for several months. Even though he said he was a
21 Scientologist a few years, he only worked there a
22 short time. But ten years is -- is alleged pattern
23 of practice information.
24 THE COURT: You mean before the Church -- I'm
25 sorry, the plaintiffs could find someone they could
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1 use, they would have to find somebody that just left
2 Scientology and was willing to testify, therefore,
3 two days ago?
4 MR. MOXON: No. What I'm --
5 THE COURT: That was there for the last five
6 years? I mean, these are unusual circumstances,
7 this case. And if you want to talk about covert
8 operations which would be, in essence, undercover
9 operations, operations that you do not want other
10 people to know about -- and I am not being critical
11 of -- of the religion here -- what I'm suggesting is
12 they can't pull somebody from the Church to come i