1
1 IN THE CIRCUIT COURT FOR PINELLAS COUNTY, FLORIDA
CASE NO. 00-5682-CI-11
2
3
4
DELL LIEBREICH, as Personal
5 Representative of the ESTATE OF
LISA McPHERSON,
6
7 Plaintiff,
8 vs.
9 CHURCH OF SCIENTOLOGY FLAG
SERVICE ORGANIZATION, JANIS
10 JOHNSON, ALAIN KARTUZINSKI
and DAVID HOUGHTON, D.D.S.,
11
Defendants.
12
_______________________________________/
13
14
15 PROCEEDINGS: Defendants' Omnibus Motion for
Terminating Sanctions and Other Relief.
16
CONTENTS: Conclusion of Rebuttal; Surrebuttal.
17
DATE: July 18, 2002. Afternoon Session.
18
PLACE: Courtroom B, Judicial Building
19 St. Petersburg, Florida.
20 BEFORE: Honorable Susan F. Schaeffer,
Circuit Judge.
21
REPORTED BY: Lynne J. Ide, RMR.
22 Deputy Official Court Reporter,
Sixth Judicial Circuit of Florida.
23
24
25
Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida
Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500
Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500
2
1 APPEARANCES:
2 MR. KENNAN G. DANDAR
DANDAR & DANDAR
3 5340 West Kennedy Blvd., Suite 201
Tampa, FL 33602
4 Attorney for Plaintiff.
5
MR. KENDRICK MOXON
6 MOXON & KOBRIN
1100 Cleveland Street, Suite 900
7 Clearwater, FL 33755
Attorney for Church of Scientology Flag Service
8 Organization.
9
MR. LEE FUGATE
10 MR. MORRIS WEINBERG, JR.
ZUCKERMAN, SPAEDER
11 101 E. Kennedy Blvd, Suite 1200
Tampa, FL 33602-5147
12 Attorneys for Church of Scientology Flag Service
Organization.
13
14 MR. ERIC M. LIEBERMAN
RABINOWITZ, BOUDIN, STANDARD
15 740 Broadway at Astor Place
New York, NY 10003-9518
16 Attorney for Church of Scientology Flag Service
Organization.
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida
Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500
Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500
3
1 THE COURT: Okay. Are we were you able to
2 correct the --
3 MR. WEINBERG: No, but we have it on video. It
4 got corrupted somehow. And I don't understand how
5 computers work, but some bug got in there. So we
6 have a video which is what we were going to put in
7 evidence anyway.
8 THE COURT: All right.
9 MR. WEINBERG: So here is the transcript. I
10 think this is very clear. But just for the record,
11 this is the one I mentioned earlier, the picket of
12 the union people at The Profit movie. And the date
13 of this is September 20, 2000.
14 THE COURT: All right.
15 MR. WEINBERG: It is about five minutes.
16 ______________________________________
17 (WHEREUPON, the video is played.)
18 "We approached the company, we asked to sit
19 down and negotiate a fair and equitable agreement.
20 And they said absolutely not. So that's all I can
21 do is offer the other plan.
22 "You got that from --"
23 (Inaudible.)
24 "-- woman who looks like Linda Tripp, Patricia,
25 is that her name?
Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida
Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500
Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500
4
1 "Patricia Greenway.
2 "Patricia is the one who said that. And I
3 asked her twice. So, I mean, here I am. We're
4 happy to talk. We're happy to come up with
5 something equitable and reasonable.
6 "So that is where we are. We're here, we're
7 ready to talk at any time.
8 "Who spoke to you from Scientology?
9 "Nobody.
10 "Well, how did you first get --
11 "We're labor -- (inaudible.)
12 "I am a Presbyterian. I don't even know what
13 Scientologists do.
14 "I'm a Baptist.
15 "How did you become aware of this situation,
16 sir? Was there a complaint from the staff, or --
17 "I (inaudible) -- that is not something I'm
18 going to discuss with you. Why we're here, why we
19 pick certain targets, that's not something I'm going
20 to discuss with you.
21 "You have no idea but you are the head of this
22 group.
23 "The discussion is over, ma'am. (Inaudible.)
24 "Why is the discussion over?"
25 (Inaudible.)
Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida
Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500
Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500
5
1 "Because I'm finished with it. Because you've
2 got a video guy here. I'm not here to be
3 interrogated by this young lady."
4 (Inaudible.)
5 "No, I'm not. I'm not.
6 "It isn't going to happen, or you either. So
7 this discussion is over. Have a nice time walking.
8 We'll have a nice time walking. We hope it doesn't
9 rain."
10 (Inaudible.)
11 "-- are you interested in hearing the other
12 side of the story?
13 "Are you empowered to negotiate on behalf of
14 the company, because I don't care about Scientology,
15 I don't care about you folks, I care about getting
16 my guys a contract and getting them back to work."
17 (Inaudible.)
18 "Six days before filming is over?
19 "If you can do that, if you can do that, then
20 let's negotiate. If you can't, then I am finished
21 talking to you. Okay?
22 "Six days before filming is over?"
23 (Inaudible.)
24 "So you are not interested in hearing what
25 else --
Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida
Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500
Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500
6
1 "I'm not interested.
2 "Hand me your literature. I'll read your sign.
3 I've read your sign here. It is all very
4 interesting. It's all very exciting.
5 "So is it true that you guys were sitting in
6 the hotel lobby of the --
7 "Excuse me. Excuse me. I'm finished talking
8 to you."
9 (Inaudible.)
10 "I'm finished talking to you, finished talking
11 to you."
12 (Inaudible.)
13 "Enjoyed talking to you.
14 "Any woman, period.
15 "We're members of the Lisa McPherson Trust. We
16 are a watchdog group.
17 "With respect to Scientology. And what we do
18 is we alert people to the dangers of this particular
19 cult and that's why they are trying to shut down
20 this film. And now what you guys are doing, perhaps
21 inadvertently, perhaps not, but you're going along
22 with them in an attempt to destroy the public's
23 opportunity for us to make a film. That is all I'll
24 saying.
25 "One person was --
Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida
Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500
Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500
7
1 "And you had no problem with it? And then you
2 show up at the last moment and try to stick it to us
3 and bully us into something? That's ridiculous.
4 Who do you think you're dealing with here. We're
5 going up against the Church of Scientology. Let me
6 tell you guys, they're about 50 times bigger and
7 meaner than you ever thought of being, and we're not
8 afraid of them and we're not afraid of you.
9 "We're sick of it. We're just not going to
10 take it any more.
11 "You don't care about America, do you? You
12 don't care what's good for you. You don't care
13 about free speech."
14 "(Inaudible.)
15 "You don't care about free speech. You don't
16 care about what's good for people.
17 "I am out here for free speech. So are you.
18 So are you.
19 "You don't care about that, do you?"
20 (Inaudible.)
21 "-- first Amendment.
22 "You don't care about that. No, it doesn't
23 matter to you. It --"
24 (Inaudible.)
25 "Let's negotiate a contract, Peter. Let's
Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida
Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500
Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500
8
1 negotiate a contract, Peter. Come on. We're right
2 here.
3 "What is the matter with you?
4 "Let's negotiate a contract.
5 "All you are going to do is destroy one of the
6 greatest films of all time with your union
7 bullshit."
8 (Inaudible.)
9 "We want to go back to work.
10 "He doesn't want to make a deal. He's got a
11 movie going. Put the people back on the set.
12 "All they have to do is negotiate a contract."
13 (Inaudible.)
14 "Sure, he does.
15 "If he wants a non-union crew, then hire a
16 non-union crew. You want to make a non-union movie?
17 Make it without our people.
18 "Think whatever you like.
19 "I know it.
20 "You think you know it, huh?"
21 (Inaudible.)
22 "Okay. Okay. Know whatever you like.
23 "I know it.
24 "Know whatever you like.
25 "But I'm just saying it's not good for you
Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida
Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500
Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500
9
1 guys. Look at this. Scientology's dupes.
2 "If you think this -- this is a joke. You
3 people are a joke.
4 "What?
5 "This is a laugher to me. This is a laugh.
6 This IATSE, Scientology dupes? Come on.
7 "I'm going to tell you something --
8 "Police -- the police --
9 "I'm from Chicago. When you have police,
10 police represent the people. Would you agree with
11 that?
12 "I don't -- I don't know.
13 "I'm just telling you. Police, don't they --
14 "Make your statement. Make your statement.
15 I'm not here to be interrogated. Okay?
16 "Well, I'm just saying -- I am just asking you,
17 do you think so or not?"
18 (Inaudible.)
19 "Okay.
20 "I don't know. In some circumstances, yes. In
21 some circumstances, no.
22 "Okay. So in Clearwater -- so in Clearwater
23 they're in bed with Scientology. They're not
24 representing us.
25 "According to you?
Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida
Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500
Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500
10
1 "They hit Bob Minton. They jumped on him. I
2 watched it.
3 "Who is Bob Minton?
4 "One of the guys here. They dove on him, threw
5 him to the ground. Do you think the police cared?
6 No. Because they are getting paid by the Church.
7 "Gee, that's too bad.
8 "Yeah, it's too bad. And it's too bad this is
9 here, too, and that people lost their jobs.
10 "You guys, you guys are zealots. You guys --
11 "We are not Scientologists.
12 "You're zealots.
13 "We're not.
14 "You don't have to be a Scientologist to be a
15 zealot. You're a zealot.
16 "We're people that believe in work.
17 "That's fine."
18 (The playing of the video is concluded.)
19 ______________________________________
20 MR. WEINBERG: That is it.
21 THE COURT: All right.
22 MR. FUGATE: May I proceed, your Honor?
23 THE COURT: You may.
24 MR. FUGATE: This is where I hope things really
25 speed up. I have got the next exhibit which I have
Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida
Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500
Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500
11
1 had the clerk mark as Exhibit 284 marked for
2 identification.
3 It's a copy of the last order in the Texas case
4 that was discussed yesterday. I think it is in
5 rebuttal to the suggestion that in the sanction
6 order -- this is the last order which basically
7 sanctions the Rule 11 -- or, excuse me, the 28, 1927
8 sanction as to Mr. Dandar, Dandar & Dandar. It does
9 not sanction the Church.
10 I offer that as our next exhibit. It basically
11 completes the prior exhibit on the same issue.
12 THE COURT: This says "199." That is the
13 number?
14 MR. FUGATE: That is actually the docket number
15 from the Texas court.
16 THE COURT: What is our number?
17 MR. FUGATE: Our number is 284. Is that
18 correct, madam clerk?
19 THE CLERK: Yes.
20 MR. FUGATE: Defense Exhibit 284.
21 THE COURT: All right.
22 MR. FUGATE: I offer that.
23 THE COURT: This appears to be an order on a
24 motion for rehearing and reconsideration.
25 MR. FUGATE: I think the suggestion was, if I
Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida
Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500
Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500
12
1 recall the testimony, that on that rehearing there
2 was a sanction entered against the Church, I think
3 it was in questions from Mr. Dandar, if I remember
4 correctly, and that indicates -- or in his
5 testimony.
6 And that indicates that is not the case, and
7 the sanction was upheld. And as Mr. Pope indicated,
8 as of yesterday, was not aware of any supersedence
9 bond. So that is just to complete that portion of
10 the --
11 THE COURT: All right.
12 MR. FUGATE: -- record.
13 The next exhibit, your Honor, I had the clerk
14 mark the original, is, speaking to Mr. Pope, he
15 indicated that he believed that -- and I agree --
16 that the renewed petition for removal of personal
17 representative, which is the probate portion of the
18 case which he described as handling yesterday,
19 should be admitted for whatever use and benefit the
20 Court gives it with regard to his testimony
21 yesterday about the accountings and about the
22 request for the expedited accounting and that the
23 accounting be in camera to complete the Court's
24 record/appreciation of that.
25 And I offer it simply for the Court's reading.
Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida
Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500
Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500
13
1 THE COURT: Why do I need all this? All this
2 renewed petition?
3 MR. DANDAR: That is totally -- it has nothing
4 to do with our motions.
5 MR. FUGATE: Well --
6 MR. DANDAR: But it sure does show how much
7 they want to interfere with the estate.
8 MR. FUGATE: Well, based on that statement I
9 think it is worth reading because it shows what's
10 being raised is the reason why -- it goes actually
11 to the issue of damages in the counterclaim and the
12 fact that, depending on the amount of damages that
13 would be recovered, if any, in this case, we're
14 further and further behind the 8-ball as the
15 defendants.
16 MR. DANDAR: I'm sorry, but I don't understand
17 that argument. Two million a week and they're
18 behind the 8-ball? I don't understand it.
19 What I understand is I had to demand -- request
20 counsel to provide you with the prior order of the
21 Texas court which does find RTC to be vexatious
22 litigators. It does not sanction them, but
23 sanctions my brother and I. But does find them to
24 be a vexatious litigators, just as the Second
25 District Court of Appeals said they had conducted
Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida
Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500
Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500
14
1 discovery with a scorched earth policy in this case.
2 And to provide you just half of the picture I
3 don't think is a proper way to do it.
4 THE COURT: Yes, if I don't get the order this
5 reconsiders, I'm not going to take --
6 MR. FUGATE: It is already in evidence, Judge.
7 MR. WEINBERG: It is already in evidence.
8 MR. FUGATE: To complete the picture, it is
9 there. I'll find the number right now.
10 THE COURT: Yes, if you can give me that number
11 right now.
12 MR. FUGATE: If you just give me a moment --
13 MR. DANDAR: If it is already in, I apologize
14 for the last comment.
15 MR. FUGATE: Well, let me ask somebody to look
16 for it while I'm going to the next exhibit, if I
17 may.
18 May I have permission to go ahead? What I'm
19 doing is essentially putting in affidavits. And I
20 recognize what your -- what the Court earlier said
21 this morning, which was you're going to take them
22 for such benefit as they provide to you, we could
23 call a witness, but it would, in our judgment,
24 unduly prolong the proceedings.
25 This is going to be 286.
Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida
Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500
Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500
15
1 THE COURT: This renewed petition for removal
2 of the personal representative has a huge section in
3 here that is signatures.
4 MR. FUGATE: Yes, Judge. That, as I understand
5 it from Mr. Pope, was attached as exhibits to
6 address the issue which I think -- and I preface it
7 by "think" -- it's been testified to at some point
8 by Mr. Dandar that the Judge dismissed the earlier
9 probate petition.
10 What Judge Greer did -- and I happened to be
11 there that day -- was say because you don't have a
12 judgment yet, you have no standing. And what this
13 is to do is to go back and -- and we now have
14 standing, obviously, because of the liability
15 finding in the Flag breach and obviously the Texas
16 RTC case, as I understand it. It just reups all of
17 the prior pleadings in the new petition.
18 THE COURT: I don't think you understand what
19 I'm saying. I have no interest at all in all these
20 pages that deal with the signatures. It is a huge
21 amount of records. I mean, it must be 30 pages
22 worth of signatures. It looks like it's all of --
23 MR. FUGATE: I think it is handwriting exemplar
24 evidence that went in.
25 THE COURT: All --
Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida
Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500
Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500
16
1 MR. FUGATE: If you want it with just the
2 petition --
3 THE COURT: All of F and G are to be removed,
4 madam clerk. Remove F and G. It is just too much
5 stuff.
6 MR. FUGATE: That is your copy you have there,
7 Judge.
8 THE COURT: So I'm going to -- I'm going to
9 remove F and G. Then at least it is a workable
10 document. You can take F and G back and just
11 note -- maybe I'll take -- I can take the cover
12 sheet and then I'll just note on my F and G that I
13 have those removed. Okay?
14 MR. FUGATE: Thank you, Judge.
15 THE COURT: All right.
16 MR. MOXON: You need a smaller clip, your
17 Honor?
18 THE COURT: Pardon me?
19 MR. MOXON: You need a smaller clip for that?
20 THE COURT: Yes.
21 MR. MOXON: You won't need that huge thing any
22 more.
23 MR. FUGATE: Your Honor, the next exhibit -- I
24 have given the original to the clerk, I hope,
25 which -- that is going to be Exhibit 286. I'll give
Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida
Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500
Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500
17
1 the Court a courtesy copy. I am giving one to
2 Mr. Dandar.
3 This is an affidavit of Paul Ortner. And it is
4 in rebuttal to the police report that was, I
5 believe, put into evidence, and at the very least
6 testified to that Mr. Ortner was interviewed by a
7 detective of the Clearwater Police Department,
8 indicating in the interview notes that he said that
9 David Miscavige was staying at the Ft. Harrison.
10 If you look --
11 THE COURT: You objected to that and I kept it
12 out.
13 MR. DANDAR: That is right, Judge.
14 THE COURT: So you can't rebut something you
15 asked to be removed that I removed.
16 MR. FUGATE: Well, if that is out, then
17 obviously we don't need to introduce this. It is
18 just an affidavit saying that is not what he told
19 the police. He said he's there, there --
20 THE COURT: It is even worse to put on the
21 record something that you can't even put in. I
22 would not have kept it out, it was part of
23 Mr. Dandar's exhibit, and, frankly, if you want it
24 in, if Mr. Dandar wants it in, and you want to
25 introduce that, that is fine. But you objected and
Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida
Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500
Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500
18
1 kept his out. So we can't have something to
2 rebut --
3 MR. FUGATE: If it is out, why put anything
4 else in the record, frankly.
5 MR. WEINBERG: Your Honor, I think the order
6 we're looking for is Defense 192.
7 THE COURT: Okay.
8 MR. WEINBERG: If we can just pull Defense 192,
9 I'm pretty sure that is the one.
10 THE COURT: Well, now I have done it. I have
11 got the wrong --
12 MR. WEINBERG: Let me show this to Mr. Dandar
13 and see if this is the one he's referring to.
14 THE COURT: Okay. Whatever I removed from
15 the -- from this exhibit, I must have removed the
16 cover sheet. This is the lawsuit -- the probate
17 matter.
18 Would you look at what I returned to you-all
19 and see if I took off the front page, like Page 1, I
20 guess.
21 MR. FUGATE: Well, this is the exhibit so he --
22 you must have the --
23 THE COURT: I think what happened was when I
24 pulled something off -- or else I just put it in
25 there so I wouldn't be able to tell what it was by
Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida
Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500
Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500
19
1 looking at it because I -- here it is, I have got
2 it. It's -- it's misplaced in my materials. So I
3 have got it. Here it is. Now I have got it.
4 MR. FUGATE: And you have the number --
5 THE COURT: I don't have the number on it so
6 tell me again what it is. It's the renewed petition
7 for removal?
8 MR. FUGATE: I believe it is 2- --
9 THE CLERK: 285.
10 MR. FUGATE: -- 285.
11 THE COURT: 286 was not admitted.
12 MR. FUGATE: 286 is not admitted. 287 is --
13 well, I don't want to swamp you there, either.
14 THE COURT: Okay, I'm ready.
15 MR. FUGATE: 287 --
16 THE COURT: You can have this back. Oh, I
17 guess I'm keeping those and just showing them not
18 admitted so I know that I haven't missed something.
19 Okay.
20 MR. FUGATE: 287, your Honor, is an affidavit
21 of Jeffrey Schmidt who you heard testimony about
22 from Jesse Prince, and comments again from
23 Mr. Dandar who Mr. Prince indicated told Jesse
24 Prince that Scientology had broken into his office
25 and stolen documents from him in London.
Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida
Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500
Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500
20
1 This is an affidavit from Mr. Schmidt that said
2 he never made such a statement to Mr. Prince and
3 there was no break-in. We offer that as 287.
4 MR. DANDAR: I object. This is Bob Minton's
5 former business partner. And this is someone who
6 was attacking a witness on the stand. That Jeff
7 Schmidt should be here for cross-examination when
8 you are going to attack a witness that testified
9 that directly. This is not some other kind of
10 document like some of the other declarations. This
11 is actually an impeachment, and that person should
12 be subject to cross-examination.
13 THE COURT: I tend to agree.
14 MR. FUGATE: Judge, I offer it as an affidavit.
15 You can use it for whatever use you find. It's an
16 affidavit from the individual. And the testimony of
17 Mr. Prince was hearsay. It is an effort to rebut
18 that with a sworn affidavit.
19 THE COURT: Yes, I think what I have done and
20 what I have said all along is there will be
21 affidavits that will be admitted that will be
22 hearsay affidavits because the people weren't here,
23 and that I would not accord it the same evidentiary
24 value as I would somebody who was here and subject
25 to cross-examination.
Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida
Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500
Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500
21
1 MR. FUGATE: I understand that.
2 THE COURT: So, Mr. Dandar, it is here, it will
3 be admitted, but it won't be afforded the same value
4 as somebody who was here and testified.
5 Well, look, you got a document, a huge
6 document, that you wanted admitted that some lawyer
7 testifying that the Scientologists did such and such
8 and so and so. This is a one pager, you don't want
9 that in, and you want your three-inch thing in.
10 MR. DANDAR: But what I'm saying, I think the
11 reason why it is different is because he
12 specifically attacks testimony of a live witness in
13 this case.
14 THE COURT: What did you think that was for?
15 If it isn't to say that some of the testimony in
16 here is either true or not true, what is it for?
17 MR. DANDAR: That is for pattern of conduct.
18 That is -- Mr. Yanny, the attorney for RTC,
19 testifies about pattern of conduct.
20 THE COURT: Mr. Yanny's affidavit is in. It is
21 somebody else's affidavit that I never heard of.
22 MR. DANDAR: Mr. Cipriano. That is another
23 evidence of pattern of conduct attacking the
24 attorney, which is what they're doing in this case.
25 THE COURT: You get yours in, they get theirs
Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida
Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500
Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500
22
1 in. Your objection is overruled.
2 MR. WEINBERG: Mr. Dandar says this is the
3 order, so it is 192, from Texas.
4 THE COURT: Okay.
5 MR. DANDAR: It is the second-to-the-last page
6 where they talk about the tactics of RTC.
7 THE COURT: Well, I'll have a chance to read
8 it.
9 MR. WEINBERG: I'll give this back to the
10 clerk.
11 MR. MOXON: Your Honor, you asked me to bring
12 the Cipriano affidavit --
13 THE COURT: Yes.
14 MR. MOXON: -- that withdraws his statements in
15 the other one. But if you are not going to be
16 admitting it --
17 THE COURT: No, I am going to be admitting it.
18 But what I wanted, he said he had withdrawn it, then
19 reinstated it. And I wanted to be sure that went
20 with it.
21 MR. MOXON: Here is the affidavit --
22 THE COURT: Okay.
23 MR. MOXON: -- withdrawing it. I don't know if
24 it's marked. I guess that will be marked as next.
25 THE COURT: Did he -- did he later then say it
Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida
Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500
Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500
23
1 was valid?
2 MR. MOXON: He didn't go back and say it was
3 valid, but he made another affidavit which said
4 similar things, then he had another affidavit that
5 said that affidavit was false.
6 But I'm responding to the specific affidavit
7 that Mr. Dandar attempted to admit.
8 THE COURT: Okay.
9 MR. DANDAR: Judge, you told him to bring in
10 all of the affidavits, and he's only bringing in
11 one. And there is apparently -- now, instead of one
12 more, there are two or three more. I think they
13 should produce all of them.
14 MR. MOXON: This is number 186?
15 MR. WEINBERG: 2.
16 MR. MOXON: 286?
17 MR. DANDAR: Yes, 286.
18 THE COURT: I'm going to allow it. If you find
19 another affidavit or something else, Mr. Dandar, you
20 want me to consider, bring it in.
21 I understand what he's saying. He's saying now
22 there was another affidavit. So this is to respond
23 to this affidavit that you have submitted. So that
24 will be in.
25 MR. DANDAR: Judge, I just don't have access to
Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida
Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500
Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500
24
1 any other affidavits.
2 THE COURT: Okay.
3 MR. DANDAR: And they apparently have them,
4 also. That is why I asked they be produced.
5 THE COURT: It is another affidavit. A
6 different affidavit.
7 MR. MOXON: I'm sorry, I gave you the wrong
8 number. This would be 287. 286 was not admitted,
9 is that correct, Mr. Fugate?
10 MR. WEINBERG: What is 286?
11 MR. DANDAR: Ortner. That was not admitted.
12 MR. MOXON: I don't want to confuse everybody.
13 THE COURT: I have a 287 so I'm assuming this
14 is 288.
15 Whatever else you have that is on Cipriano, I
16 guess we better have it. So -- so we'll make this
17 288A. Just send me whatever else you've got.
18 MR. FUGATE: Could we make that whatever --
19 THE CLERK: 289.
20 MR. FUGATE: -- 289, Judge, because I just gave
21 her another affidavit in between that is 288.
22 THE COURT: 289A. Mr. Moxon, I'll expect you
23 to give me whatever else you have on this fellow.
24 MR. MOXON: Okay.
25 THE CLERK: It is in evidence?
Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida
Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500
Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500
25
1 THE COURT: Well, 289A is. And you should note
2 we expect at least a B, if not B and C. And we'll
3 make sure you get it. Okay?
4 THE CLERK: Okay. Thank you.
5 THE COURT: Well, you make sure you get it.
6 Okay?
7 THE CLERK: Yes.
8 MR. DANDAR: What number exhibit is the Jeff
9 Schmidt letter?
10 THE COURT: 288, it must be, because --
11 MR. FUGATE: Wait a minute, 287, I believe. Is
12 that right, madam clerk, the Jeff Schmidt affidavit?
13 THE COURT: That is the affidavit. That is
14 287?
15 THE CLERK: That is correct.
16 THE COURT: I never did get 288, whatever it
17 is.
18 MR. FUGATE: I'm about to hand it up, Judge.
19 THE COURT: Okay.
20 MR. FUGATE: I just got ahead of myself in an
21 effort to keep my promise to finish up.
22 Are we ready?
23 THE COURT: Ready.
24 MR. FUGATE: Judge, during the testimony of
25 Vaughn Young, and, I believe, another witness
Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida
Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500
Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500
26
1 whose name escapes me, there was -- I know in Vaughn
2 Young's testimony there was bits of the submission
3 that was made to the IRS for the tax exemption that
4 he pulled out and got placed into evidence by
5 Mr. Dandar.
6 And at the time I think there was an indication
7 that if we wanted to complete that submission, we
8 could.
9 And I have got an authenticating affidavit,
10 which would be our next exhibit, from Monique
11 Yingling, basically that authenticates all of the
12 documents -- or portions of the documents that are
13 denoted in there that were provided by her to the
14 IRS for the exemption in regard --
15 THE COURT: I have no idea what you're talking
16 about. Whatever Peter Alexander testified about the
17 IRS, what would that have to do with --
18 MR. FUGATE: No, there were portions of this
19 submission he had taken out --
20 THE COURT: Submission? What are you talking
21 about, this submission?
22 MR. FUGATE: When Mr. Dandar had Vaughn Young
23 on the stand --
24 THE COURT: Okay?
25 MR. FUGATE: -- he introduced into evidence
Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida
Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500
Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500
27
1 several pages of a submission that was made to the
2 IRS.
3 THE COURT: Oh.
4 MR. FUGATE: And this is the entire submission
5 for the parts that he had talked about, with an
6 authenticating affidavit from Monique Yingling. And
7 that is going to be self-explanatory.
8 MR. LIEBERMAN: Your Honor, I can clarify what
9 submission it was because I was involved with
10 Ms. Yingling.
11 THE COURT: Okay.
12 MR. LIEBERMAN: It was a submission of
13 materials, including answers to questions from the
14 IRS in the Church's applications for tax exemption
15 which led to the granting of tax exemption in 1993.
16 THE COURT: Okay.
17 MR. LIEBERMAN: And the submission was made on
18 behalf of and included in the IRS record of various
19 churches, including FSO.
20 THE COURT: All right.
21 MR. LIEBERMAN: The point is this is --
22 Mr. Young submitted portions --
23 THE COURT: I understand.
24 MR. LIEBERMAN: It is another portion.
25 THE COURT: I just admitted it.
Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida
Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500
Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500
28
1 MR. LIEBERMAN: I just wanted to make sure you
2 understood.
3 THE COURT: I understand it now. I'd
4 forgotten.
5 MR. FUGATE: Judge, the next affidavit -- which
6 would be 290, madam clerk?
7 THE CLERK: Yes, it is.
8 MR. FUGATE: I have given the original
9 affidavit to the clerk. It is an affidavit from Mr.
10 Moxon that in the body of the affidavit goes through
11 and specifically rebuts -- it's self-explanatory, I
12 can either read it to you or give it to you to
13 read -- the testimony that Mr. Oliver said --
14 testified to that he met with Mr. Moxon --
15 THE COURT: Mr. Moxon was present in this
16 courtroom. If Mr. Moxon wanted to testify, he could
17 have. I will not receive his affidavit. He's here
18 and --
19 MR. LIEBERMAN: Well, Judge --
20 THE COURT: I don't need an affidavit from
21 somebody who is sitting in the courtroom, available
22 to testify.
23 MR. LIEBERMAN: Your Honor, all it is,
24 Mr. Oliver talked about what Mr. Moxon had asked in
25 a certain deposition. All it is is an
Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida
Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500
Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500
29
1 authenticating affidavit of that deposition.
2 THE COURT: Oh, okay.
3 MR. MOXON: No, it is a bit more than that.
4 MR. LIEBERMAN: I'm sorry, I misspoke.
5 MR. MOXON: No, Mr. Oliver testified that he
6 met me at a certain time. I never met the man in my
7 life.
8 THE COURT: If you want to testify and refute
9 what somebody else said, you need to testify. I
10 just can't have people putting in affidavits, when
11 they are here, available to be called as witnesses
12 and cross-examined.
13 MR. FUGATE: Judge, then what we'll do --
14 THE COURT: It is nothing against Mr. Moxon.
15 But he's here, he's been sitting here every day.
16 MR. FUGATE: Judge, I'm not arguing with that.
17 What I was going to ask the Court, hopefully we
18 won't have a break, but if we have a break before we
19 finish, I'll try to at least line out the portions
20 that relate to that and go back to the
21 authenticating part of the deposition and explain
22 that to you. But I would like to leave it marked
23 for now.
24 THE COURT: You can leave it marked for now.
25 It is not in evidence.
Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida
Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500
Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500
30
1 THE CLERK: Judge, what number is that?
2 THE COURT: I don't know.
3 MR. FUGATE: It is 290. Right?
4 THE CLERK: All right.
5 THE COURT: A lot of these affidavits I'm
6 letting in because these people aren't here, it's a
7 long trip, there are lots of reasons why. They are
8 fairly peripheral. And, you know, we'll just let
9 them in.
10 But I feel a little differently about somebody
11 who is here. Next I'll have an affidavit from
12 Mr. Dandar, and I'll have one from you and one from
13 Ms. Greenway. And, you know, if somebody is here
14 and can testify, we need their testimony.
15 MR. FUGATE: If we can get this stuff in today,
16 hopefully there won't be any more.
17 THE COURT: Okay.
18 MR. FUGATE: I'm going to have Mr. Moxon look
19 at it as far as going to the authentication part.
20 Let me see where I am next.
21 The next affidavits are -- actually, I think it
22 would be better -- I'll tell you what they are and
23 I'm going to ask to submit them as a composite.
24 The next number is 291?
25 THE CLERK: Yes.
Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida
Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500
Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500
31
1 MR. FUGATE: What these are, your Honor, are
2 affidavits from Norman Starkey; Greg Wilhere; Ray
3 Mithoff; Guillaume Lesevre -- I know I'm butchering
4 the name, G-U-I-L-L-A-U-M-E, last name
5 L-E-S-E-V-R-E; Mark Jager; and Mark Ingber,
6 I-N-G-B-E-R.
7 These collectively are affidavits, your Honor,
8 that basically indicate "I am a captain in the Sea
9 Org and I know that Mr. Miscavige is a captain in
10 the Sea Org," and they're all at the same rank.
11 And I would offer those as a composite for
12 whatever.
13 THE COURT: Any objection?
14 MR. DANDAR: No objection.
15 MR. WEINBERG: There are two more, apparently.
16 MR. FUGATE: Okay, well, let me add to that.
17 John Napier and Jan McLaughlin.
18 Judge, what I'll do, to save time, I'll break
19 these out, give him a copy and give a copy to your
20 Honor, and ask the clerk mark them as a composite,
21 rather than take the Court's time.
22 THE COURT: All right.
23 MR. FUGATE: Your Honor, rather than fumble
24 around, I'll have Mr. Moxon make a submission he was
25 going to make and get these divided out and give
Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida
Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500
Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500
32
1 them to your Honor and go to my next point so we'll
2 move it along.
3 THE COURT: All right.
4 MR. DANDAR: Aren't there more affidavits than
5 this of Mr. Jager's.
6 MR. FUGATE: I said I'll break them out
7 originally so they can be put together as a
8 composite. And I'll give you, marked
9 chronologically A, B, C, whatever they are, and to
10 the Court, as well.
11 MR. DANDAR: Do you want this one back then?
12 MR. FUGATE: No. You can have it.
13 MR. DANDAR: All right.
14 MR. MOXON: Madam clerk, the last exhibit was
15 291, is that correct?
16 THE CLERK: That is correct.
17 MR. MOXON: Your Honor, I'm just going to enter
18 several church policies into evidence, if I could.
19 THE COURT: All right.
20 MR. MOXON: We'll mark as Exhibit 292 HCO
21 policy letter entitled "Antisocial personality of
22 the anti-Scientologist."
23 MR. DANDAR: What was 291?
24 THE COURT: I'm assuming it must be one of
25 these affidavits.
Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida
Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500
Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500
33
1 MR. WEINBERG: It is the package being marked.
2 MR. DANDAR: But 290 is Jager, right?
3 THE COURT: No, actually Mr. Jager is one of
4 many that will be 291. He just showed you an
5 example, I think.
6 MR. DANDAR: I hate to say that. Then what is
7 290?
8 THE COURT: I don't know because I don't have
9 it, either.
10 MR. DANDAR: Oh.
11 THE COURT: I have 289 --
12 MR. WEINBERG: Was that the one you didn't
13 admit is 290?
14 THE CLERK: 290 is the one, ID only, affidavit
15 of --
16 THE COURT: Right, 290 is Mr. Moxon's affidavit
17 that will be amended, apparently.
18 Okay, 292.
19 MR. MOXON: The question arose here as to what
20 a suppressive person is and what one isn't -- is
21 not.
22 This issue makes clear there are antisocial
23 personalities in the world, and that is entirely
24 different than someone who is in the Church and
25 attempting to do the steps 8 E to have that status
Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida
Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500
Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500
34
1 changed. That is 292.
2 THE COURT: Okay.
3 MR. MOXON: Exhibit 293 is a policy letter
4 called "Third Dynamic Tech."
5 Exhibit 294 is a policy -- Scientology policy
6 directive dated July 15, 1986, revised July 17,
7 1987.
8 This Scientology policy directive was issued
9 after the death of Mr. Hubbard and clarifies the
10 issues of new policies coming out after that time.
11 Exhibit 295 is a document entitled "Ron's
12 Journal" dated 31 December, 1995.
13 THE COURT: 1985?
14 MR. MOXON: Yes, your Honor.
15 THE COURT: You said '95, I thought.
16 MR. MOXON: I'm sorry, it is Exhibit 295 issued
17 in 1985. These Ron's Journals, they are in kind of
18 basically a form of a letter issued primarily at the
19 time of -- around the new year, sometimes at other
20 times.
21 Exhibit 296 is an HCO policy letter entitled
22 "Flourish and Prosper."
23 Exhibit 297 is another HCO policy letter dated
24 July 12, 1980 R, revised November 5, 1982, entitled
25 "The Basics of Ethics."
Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida
Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500
Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500
35
1 That was 297, correct?
2 THE COURT: Yes.
3 MR. MOXON: Exhibit 298 is an HCO policy letter
4 dated July 9, 1980 R called "Ethics, Justice and the
5 Dynamics."
6 MR. DANDAR: I suppose this is all rebuttal to
7 something.
8 THE COURT: I -- I presume so. If it is not,
9 why, it is just making a bigger record.
10 MR. MOXON: Your Honor, we'll address these.
11 Rather than go into a whole argument about them now,
12 we'll address them in our closing briefs.
13 THE COURT: Okay.
14 MR. DANDAR: Isn't 298 and 299 the same thing?
15 THE COURT: I don't even have a 299.
16 MR. MOXON: 299 is "The Code of a
17 Scientologist." In Scientology, there are several
18 codes. There is an auditor's code, and it provides
19 Scientologists with guidelines with respect to human
20 rights, justice and social reform issues.
21 MR. DANDAR: It is already in evidence.
22 THE COURT: Is it?
23 MR. DANDAR: Yes.
24 THE COURT: Well, I don't know if it is or not
25 so we'll just get it again. If it is, we'll have
Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida
Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500
Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500
36
1 two copies of it.
2 MR. DANDAR: It happens quite a bit in this
3 case.
4 THE COURT: I think there are a couple of
5 things we have gotten in evidence a couple of times.
6 MR. MOXON: Exhibit Number 300 is called "The
7 Creed of the Church of Scientology." This creed was
8 issued as a succinct statement of Scientology
9 beliefs.
10 MR. DANDAR: I'm sorry, I have already got
11 this. Duplicate.
12 MR. MOXON: Exhibit 301 is the "Auditor's
13 Code," which I will explain in greater detail in a
14 moment.
15 THE COURT: I do hope you-all understand that
16 some of this stuff, just like a lot of other
17 documents I'm receiving, what weight or what value
18 they may be to me, if any, we'll just have to wait
19 and see.
20 Obviously, a policy letter from L. Ron Hubbard
21 is one thing. An auditor's code, I have no idea
22 where it came from or anything of the sort.
23 MR. MOXON: This was also written by L. Ron
24 Hubbard, your Honor.
25 THE COURT: I'm simply saying, if these things
Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida
Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500
Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500
37
1 just come in and I don't even know where they came
2 from or what they are, they won't have a great deal
3 of value. I assume you'll point out what it is you
4 want to point out at some point in time in your
5 closing argument.
6 MR. MOXON: Let me address the auditor's code
7 now, because I also have a short training film which
8 I'm not going to play now but I'll provide to the
9 Court, it is about ten minutes long. And it is
10 called "The Auditor's Code."
11 THE COURT: What is the -- what have we had in
12 this hearing about auditors?
13 MR. MOXON: Well, there has been a lot of
14 allegations with respect to what the auditors would
15 or would not do.
16 For example, with Lisa McPherson, the
17 intentions of auditors in Scientology practices --
18 THE COURT: The only thing I know of auditors
19 in Lisa McPherson is the testimony from the auditors
20 of the Church of Scientology is she was not capable
21 of being audited. That is the only thing I know of
22 that could possibly be relevant to the wrongful
23 death.
24 And to the counterclaim, I probably couldn't
25 think of anything that would be relevant.
Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida
Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500
Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500
38
1 MR. MOXON: Well, there has also been testimony
2 from a number of Mr. Dandar's witnesses which are
3 generally attacking, I guess, the level of care and
4 compassion that the auditors in the Church have for
5 the parishioners. And this is --
6 THE COURT: I don't recall that. And if it
7 came in, I wouldn't find it relevant at all to this
8 hearing. So I don't know why I need to have those.
9 I mean, I just don't recall the testimony. If
10 you're telling me it is there and you are rebutting
11 it, I'll go ahead and let it in.
12 But in truth, I don't know of anything relevant
13 to this hearing except if somebody said that was a
14 lie and she was audited four or five times. I don't
15 think there has been any such testimony, so I assume
16 that is true that she wasn't capable of being
17 audited because she was not well enough. And --
18 MR. MOXON: Well -- I'm sorry.
19 THE COURT: And that would be the only
20 relevance I know of.
21 But go ahead, if you think this would be
22 helpful to me to understand --
23 MR. MOXON: I think it would be very helpful.
24 As I say, it's a short video. If the Court wishes
25 to see it, we would like to put it in the record.
Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida
Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500
Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500
39
1 It is a code of ethics and conduct for auditors
2 to provide greater reality of the Churches views
3 concerning the compassion and care for which
4 auditors must conduct themselves for the good of the
5 parishioners, and the basic standards of ethics,
6 also, for auditors and ministers of the Church.
7 We'll mark this as Exhibit 302.
8 THE COURT: I'm letting this in as something
9 that would be of interest to me. I don't think it
10 has any bearing on this hearing, but --
11 MR. MOXON: Very good.
12 MR. DANDAR: Judge, I just want to remind you,
13 there is a policy in evidence that we presented that
14 says that an unconscious person could be audited.
15 THE COURT: Oh. Okay. But you haven't
16 suggested that Lisa McPherson was audited.
17 MR. DANDAR: No. She had no auditing at all.
18 THE COURT: Right.
19 MR. DANDAR: Well, let me say, there is no
20 evidence of auditing.
21 THE COURT: Right.
22 MR. MOXON: There is another CD, this is
23 actually a lecture from the founder, from L. Ron
24 Hubbard, entitled, "The Story of Dianetics and
25 Scientology."
Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida
Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500
Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500
40
1 I would like to admit it as Exhibit 303, which
2 gives, rather than unusual versions of Scientology
3 and Dianetics that have been provided by the
4 plaintiff --
5 MR. DANDAR: Do I get copies of the CDs and
6 videos, I would hope?
7 MR. MOXON: Yes.
8 MR. DANDAR: And the videos?
9 MR. MOXON: Well, on the videos, what I would
10 like to do with Mr. Dandar, we have a precedent on
11 this. If he comes and can see it, I can arrange --
12 similar to -- remember how he objected to us having
13 a copy of The Profit? These are our proprietary
14 works. The videos are not sold by the Church.
15 We're happy to have it in the record and
16 certainly will make arrangements for Mr. Dandar to
17 come any time he wants.
18 I gave him a copy of the CD because this is
19 publicly available.
20 THE COURT: I don't see how you can put it in
21 the record and not give him a copy. If it is in the
22 record, it is a public record. So if you don't want
23 to put it in the record, I understand that. Then I
24 think you ought to withdraw it from the record.
25 MR. MOXON: I have given Mr. Dandar a copy.
Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida
Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500
Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500
41
1 THE COURT: I don't have one, if you meant for
2 me to. I have this.
3 MR. MOXON: I can give you an extra.
4 THE COURT: Did you give me one?
5 MR. MOXON: I made one an exhibit. I gave it
6 to the clerk. But here is a copy for you.
7 MR. DANDAR: So there is just one video and one
8 CD?
9 Madam clerk, the video is what number?
10 THE CLERK: The video is 302.
11 MR. MOXON: The CD was a lecture delivered to
12 Scientologists on the 18th of October, 1958, and
13 gave essentially an anecdotal account of how
14 Mr. Hubbard came to write Dianetics and write
15 Scientology in his own words.
16 THE COURT: Once again, I'm going to tell
17 you-all that when you write your closing argument,
18 I'm not sure that any of this is relevant. I'm
19 letting it in simply because perhaps it has some
20 educational value and I'm always happy to be
21 educated. But the truth of the matter is I don't
22 know it has any relevance to this hearing.
23 MR. LIEBERMAN: Well, your Honor, actually you
24 may well be right, just like as I argued, I don't
25 think a lot of the introduction of policies --
Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida
Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500
Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500
42
1 THE COURT: Right.
2 MR. LIEBERMAN: -- was either relevant or
3 appropriate under the First Amendment. But we
4 talked about that and you said, "Well, just in case,
5 you better get in what you want --"
6 THE COURT: Right.
7 MR. LIEBERMAN: "-- to sort of explain it.
8 THE COURT: I don't want you to spend your
9 whole closing argument talking about some of these
10 later things you are submitting because I'm not
11 sure --
12 MR. LIEBERMAN: Your Honor, we guarantee you
13 we'll focus on --
14 THE COURT: The testimony and the admissions.
15 MR. LIEBERMAN: -- relevant --
16 THE COURT: It is very hard, once again, for me
17 to sit and read these to see whether or not they
18 really rebut anything or not. If they don't rebut
19 something, they ought not be coming in. If they do,
20 they should. So I'm letting it all in.
21 MR. LIEBERMAN: Right.
22 THE COURT: Then later we'll look and see if I
23 think it does. And that is really the reason why
24 this is going so quickly.
25 MR. LIEBERMAN: We will have a little section
Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida
Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500
Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500
43
1 that puts this in perspective. But we also will
2 probably be arguing, too, that most of it is not
3 something that you need or even ought be
4 considering.
5 THE COURT: All right.
6 MR. LIEBERMAN: But I think it also might be
7 useful for you to get some greater perspective as to
8 what this is all about.
9 THE COURT: All right.
10 MR. MOXON: Next, Exhibit, 303, is actually one
11 of the few film lectures of L. Ron Hubbard.
12 Mr. Hubbard gave many lectures, over 1,400
13 lectures. Very few of them were filmed. But this
14 one was filmed. It is called "The Classification
15 and Gradation Film." And it represents the release
16 of the first Scientology grade chart.
17 You have heard testimony about the bridge,
18 and -- the left side of the bridge of the audit
19 training, and the right side as to auditing.
20 THE COURT: Yes.
21 MR. MOXON: Well, this film is about the
22 release of the gradation chart. And it was a
23 lecture given in 1965. I seem to only have one copy
24 with me but I'll provide other copies.
25 THE COURT: All right.
Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida
Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500
Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500
44
1 MR. MOXON: It is 30 minutes long.
2 THE COURT: See, in other words, what you-all
3 have been doing, you are giving the original to the
4 clerk and you are giving me my copy. Anything I
5 have got doesn't go to the clerk.
6 MR. MOXON: That is right.
7 THE COURT: So if this is what you are
8 introducing, it better be to the clerk.
9 MR. DANDAR: Isn't the CD that Number 303?
10 THE CLERK: 304.
11 MR. MOXON: I'm sorry, it is 304.
12 MR. DANDAR: What is --
13 MR. MOXON: The CD is 303. "Classification and
14 Gradation" is 304.
15 MR. DANDAR: Got it.
16 THE COURT: If you don't have copies, how are
17 you going to get copies? I don't want something in
18 the record -- in the official record that either
19 Mr. Dandar or I don't have copies of.
20 MR. MOXON: We'll have additional copies
21 brought down for you and Mr. Dandar. Or Mr. Dandar
22 can come see this one.
23 MR. DANDAR: No. I would like to have my own
24 copy.
25 THE COURT: If you are going to introduce it in
Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida
Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500
Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500
45
1 the public record, that everything in here is the
2 public record, you'll have to give him a copy of it.
3 MR. MOXON: By the way, your Honor, can we have
4 an agreement on the record that Mr. Dandar won't be
5 putting this on the Internet or giving it out to
6 other people? This is proprietary work that
7 we're --
8 THE COURT: I would think that anything that
9 has been admitted in this hearing you should be
10 careful of. Mr. Dandar said he doesn't put stuff on
11 the Internet. It seems to appear on the Internet.
12 If you say you don't put it out on the Internet, I
13 don't know who is putting stuff out on the Internet.
14 MR. DANDAR: You know, I had someone --
15 THE COURT: I could tell you-all I don't really
16 honestly think that things that -- like I said, I
17 don't have a real objection to what we do in here
18 going out on the public airways. I'm not sure that
19 is the purpose, so I don't know what the purpose is.
20 I don't know whether it is to make fun of what we're
21 doing or to criticize what we're doing, or perhaps
22 it is just educational. If that is the case, it is
23 fine. I don't know, if it is part of the public
24 record, if I can ask him not to put it out or
25 anything of the sort.
Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida
Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500
Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500
46
1 I would anticipate you give him a copy of it.
2 If it is something proprietary, I will -- if I can
3 go to a book store and buy this and he gets a copy
4 of it, he can use it.
5 MR. MOXON: The CD is one thing. The film is
6 not. It is not sold in churches, it is made
7 available to members to see but not sold.
8 THE COURT: Then I'll ask him not to use it
9 outside of this hearing.
10 MR. DANDAR: Very well.
11 THE COURT: This hearing meaning this case. I
12 think I have done that with some things with
13 you-all, I have said some of the E-Mails from LMT
14 and the videos from LMT, I said get my permission to
15 use it outside of this case. That includes this
16 hearing, any trial, if any, any depositions, you
17 know, this whole case.
18 MR. MOXON: And --
19 THE COURT: So the videos, Mr. Dandar, you are
20 not to -- you can get me an order if you like, but
21 it is on the record here.
22 MR. DANDAR: It is on the record.
23 THE COURT: You are not to distribute it or use
24 it outside of this case without getting my
25 permission.
Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida
Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500
Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500
47
1 MR. DANDAR: That is fine.
2 MR. MOXON: Thank you. Just to put this film
3 in perspective, as I say, it was a lecture delivered
4 in 1965 by Mr. Hubbard. And as his research
5 continued, later developments were represented on
6 the grade charts.
7 This grade chart that you'll see on the film is
8 a little bit different than the ones that exist
9 today as higher levels were developed by
10 Mr. Hubbard.
11 However, the principles of the grade chart that
12 formed the foundation of the bridge are the same
13 today and as they will be for all time. It was a
14 delivered in a chapel in Saint Hill in Sussex to
15 students of the special briefing course, which is
16 the biggest course for training auditors in
17 Scientology. And that course comprised over 500
18 lectures. And I'll give you a little more reality
19 on that when I show you what is up against the wall.
20 The last film I want to put in evidence is
21 Number 305. And this is entitled "Advice to Persons
22 Being Audited" film.
23 So this is essentially an introductory film --
24 THE COURT: I'm missing two things here. Maybe
25 I'm not. What is the CD? Is that 303, madam clerk?
Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida
Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500
Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500
48
1 THE CLERK: Yes, ma'am, it is.
2 THE COURT: Then I'm just missing the one you
3 are going to supply. Right?
4 MR. MOXON: That is correct.
5 THE COURT: All right.
6 MR. MOXON: This film, "Advice to Persons Being
7 Audited" is also written by L. Ron Hubbard. And its
8 purpose is to provide basic understanding of
9 auditing for persons just beginning.
10 THE COURT: All right.
11 MR. MOXON: In that regard it provides basic
12 grounding as to what an auditing session is and
13 basic terms that the Court has heard and may help
14 the Court in understanding some of what you heard.
15 It also expresses the Church's view on drugs in
16 relationship to progress in Scientology that are
17 explained here.
18 And also the E-meter is explained, what an
19 auditing session looks like, and you'll actually see
20 an auditing session.
21 THE COURT: All right.
22 MR. MOXON: It is only ten minutes long.
23 Now, I also have a book called "The Scientology
24 Handbook." And this is entirely based on the works
25 of L. Ron Hubbard.
Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida
Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500
Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500
49
1 I don't think I'll put this in the record per
2 se. But I think it would be helpful to the Court
3 and I'll certainly make a copy available to
4 Mr. Dandar. It is so large.
5 But this has a number of the issues that the
6 Court has heard about, and which will explain some
7 things from the perspective of the Church, that the
8 Court can understand the Church's viewpoints on
9 these issues. And I have tabbed several points in
10 the book that would be helpful.
11 THE COURT: All right.
12 MR. MOXON: And the points I have tabbed --
13 this is heavy --
14 THE COURT: It is heavy. Okay.
15 MR. MOXON: -- includes the fundamentals of
16 Scientology, a description of the bridge, as
17 witnesses have discussed the auditing and training
18 sides of the bridge, the goal of man and dynamics,
19 you heard quite a bit about the dynamics, several
20 witnesses addressed this, the eight dynamics of
21 existence.
22 THE COURT: Right.
23 MR. MOXON: I also tabbed a section called
24 "Determining Optimum Solutions" which goes to the
25 issue of the greatest good.
Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida
Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500
Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500
50
1 THE COURT: Greatest good for the greatest
2 number?
3 MR. MOXON: That is right.
4 I have also tabbed a section on --
5 THE COURT: That is the components of
6 understanding?
7 MR. MOXON: It is right before that.
8 THE COURT: Okay.
9 MR. MOXON: But --
10 THE COURT: All right, go ahead. I'll assume
11 you have tabbed these. Go ahead.
12 MR. DANDAR: I need to interrupt a second. I'm
13 going to get a copy of the same thing the Judge has,
14 I'll have it tabbed in the same places, correct?
15 MR. MOXON: Sure.
16 MR. DANDAR: Today?
17 MR. MOXON: Sure.
18 MR. DANDAR: All right.
19 MR. MOXON: And this includes the Scientology
20 elements of affinity, reality and communication.
21 And some witnesses have testified that they are
22 kind of a twisted version, their description of
23 reality. So we provide to the Court what these
24 issues of affinity, reality and communication really
25 are in Scientology.
Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida
Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500
Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500
51
1 And there is also a small section tabbed in
2 there on the tone scale which is addressed in the
3 book "Science of Survival," which a couple witnesses
4 talk about.
5 The last three tabs there are on ethics. One
6 is on integrity and honesty, including the use of
7 OWs, overts and withholds, and writing them up, and
8 why it is done, and how Scientologists believe it is
9 helpful to them; indeed, necessary.
10 There is a little section on Scientology
11 ethics.
12 The last section there that I tabbed is on
13 suppressive persons, PTS's.
14 THE COURT: All right.
15 MR. MOXON: Now I would like to give you a
16 short tour of this library.
17 THE COURT: Okay.
18 MR. MOXON: First there are -- all these
19 binders --
20 THE COURT: What number is this book?
21 MR. MOXON: I haven't marked it as an exhibit,
22 your Honor.
23 THE COURT: This is just for me?
24 MR. MOXON: Yes.
25 THE COURT: And Mr. Dandar will get a copy?
Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida
Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500
Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500
52
1 MR. MOXON: That is right.
2 THE COURT: All right.
3 MR. MOXON: All of these -- this huge table
4 full here of binders consist of --
5 THE COURT: Did you-all take a picture of this?
6 MR. MOXON: Yes, we did.
7 MR. LIEBERMAN: Yes, we did.
8 MR. MOXON: It is on its way down.
9 MR. DANDAR: I hope I get a color copy of that
10 because I need some momentos. I really -- I saw the
11 guy do it. I was very impressed with his equipment
12 that he was putting up, very professional.
13 MR. MOXON: We'll make sure Mr. Dandar has some
14 momentos of this hearing.
15 THE COURT: All right.
16 MR. MOXON: These are taped lectures that come
17 in this form.
18 This first one I handed you is -- happens to be
19 from the Saint Hill special briefing course, which
20 is the largest course in Scientology. These taped
21 lectures in cassette form represent the recorded
22 path of Mr. Hubbard's research and development of
23 Scientology and Dianetics.
24 And initially it was only through the recorded
25 medium that Mr. Hubbard made most of the works of
Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida
Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500
Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500
53
1 Scientology and practices of Scientology known to
2 Scientologists around the world, because in earlier
3 days their organization didn't really exist. And he
4 traveled the world and gave lectures.
5 Therefore, Scientology was taught by
6 Mr. Hubbard through this form by personally
7 instructing students and making these lectures, and
8 then the lectures were then made available to
9 students around the world.
10 The vast majority of these lectures have only
11 been released in very recent years. Most were done
12 in the '50s and '60s. And the project has been
13 going since 1984 to produce further lectures.
14 THE COURT: That is the bottom shelf?
15 MR. MOXON: From here to here (indicating) is
16 what has been released so far, plus -- plus these.
17 Each one of these is filled with cassettes like you
18 have seen. They'll be made into CDs at some point.
19 THE COURT: Is this the same thing I saw a copy
20 of one that was -- not a copy, an actual course that
21 was -- Mr. Dandar had one?
22 MR. MOXON: No. But I will show you an example
23 of what he was showing you.
24 THE COURT: Okay.
25 MR. MOXON: He held up something called
Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida
Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500
Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500
54
1 PTS/SP -- a course book like this.
2 THE COURT: Yes.
3 MR. MOXON: But these are just binders of taped
4 lectures that are company courses. And there are
5 1,418 recorded lectures of L. Ron Hubbard, if you
6 can imagine. It was a huge body of work, and many
7 are still not -- still not published. There are
8 about 600 that haven't been released. But I just
9 wanted to give you some reality on that, Judge.
10 THE COURT: All right.
11 MR. MOXON: And on this small table here are
12 books. And these are -- are considered the basic
13 books of Scientology. They represent the foundation
14 of Scientology and Dianetics.
15 This book here is the first -- well, one of the
16 first books written. This is the one that really
17 kicked off the main body of the organization in
18 1950, "Dianetics, The Modern Science of Mental
19 Health."
20 And as most of the lectures couldn't be made
21 broadly, these books were published, mostly --
22 mostly all in the '50s. And they provide basically
23 a summary of Scientology works and Dianetics works.
24 As you can see, there are quite a few of them.
25 THE COURT: Okay.
Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida
Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500
Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500
55
1 MR. MOXON: Now the volumes. Here we have
2 these green volumes. You have heard about green
3 volumes and red volumes?
4 THE COURT: Yes.
5 MR. MOXON: Green volumes are the
6 administrative technology of Scientology. And these
7 green volumes have all of the policy letters written
8 by Mr. Hubbard.
9 In the auditing technology, that could be
10 considered what is known in Scientology as the first
11 dynamic, that is, of self, survival of an
12 individual. So that -- this concerns auditing.
13 But the green volumes concern what is known in
14 Scientology as the third dynamic or groups, and how
15 a group is organized and so -- so it can survive
16 better.
17 The dynamics concern survival, survival in the
18 first dynamic, survival in the third dynamic of an
19 organization or a group.
20 Now, the red volumes are all the different
21 technical bulletins. So when you have seen
22 something that says "HCO policy letter," that is
23 these green volumes. Red volumes are all the
24 technical bulletins and kind of more generically
25 called the tech of Scientology. And these begin in
Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida
Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500
Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500
56
1 chronological order starting in 1950, and go up
2 through the years.
3 To give you an example here --
4 THE COURT: Okay.
5 MR. MOXON: -- this is the first volume
6 starting in 1950, even before the Church of
7 Scientology itself was formed as an entity.
8 When Mr. Hubbard passed away, he left behind a
9 number of writings to be released at a future date
10 when certain requirements were met.
11 For example, there is a new building under
12 construction in Clearwater, you may have driven by
13 it, across the street from the Ft. Harrison.
14 THE COURT: Right.
15 MR. MOXON: Well, that concerns a rundown
16 written by Mr. Hubbard called "Super Power." And at
17 the time that was put together, the physical needs
18 for delivering super power wasn't developed. And
19 that is being developed now so that this new
20 rundown, super power, can be delivered.
21 THE COURT: I don't understand that, new
22 rundown, you mean like a new auditing, like the
23 introspection rundown?
24 MR. MOXON: Precisely.
25 THE COURT: So a super power rundown would be
Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida
Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500
Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500
57
1 an auditing process?
2 MR. MOXON: That is right.
3 THE COURT: I don't see what it has to do with
4 the building, I guess.
5 MR. MOXON: I just gave you that as an example.
6 There is a building that will be delivering that.
7 But there are a number of works by Mr. Hubbard and
8 notes and lectures as to -- as to new technology.
9 So some new technology comes out based solely and
10 strictly on the books of L. Ron Hubbard in some of
11 these bulletins.
12 THE COURT: What you mean, that rundown will be
13 offered in the new building?
14 MR. MOXON: That is right. But this technology
15 was -- evolved and refined throughout the years.
16 And in some top training courses, in fact, an
17 auditor would be required to read from the beginning
18 to the end the entire evolution of Scientology
19 auditing technology in the books you have in your
20 hand right now.
21 THE COURT: Where would it be -- I was looking
22 in this, I didn't know if this is where I would find
23 it or not. But where would it be in the books if I
24 wanted to see -- not if I wanted to see -- but if I
25 wanted to see like Policy Letter Number 50? Are
Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida
Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500
Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500
58
1 they numbered in one of those -- in the greens? Or
2 reds? Or --
3 MR. MOXON: Well, here, let me show you this.
4 THE COURT: Because I know the reds don't seem
5 to have any --
6 MR. MOXON: In each book -- I'll hand to you a
7 policy book -- if you look in the front, there is,
8 of course, a table of contents.
9 THE COURT: Oh, okay. I see.
10 MR. MOXON: And in the back there is an index.
11 Now, these are separated by each different --
12 THE COURT: This is what I was looking for.
13 MR. MOXON: Okay.
14 THE COURT: In other words, this would have --
15 this is what I have been seeing, just one after the
16 other. So these would all be found in some sort of
17 bound volume?
18 MR. MOXON: Absolutely. These are the actual
19 policies of the Church. And there is -- here I'm
20 showing you a policy index.
21 THE COURT: Yes.
22 MR. MOXON: So if you were to look up some
23 issue, if you wanted to know about --
24 THE COURT: Introspection rundown.
25 MR. MOXON: Well, that would be in the red
Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida
Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500
Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500
59
1 volumes.
2 THE COURT: All right.
3 MR. MOXON: In fact, I'll show you that. Let
4 me show you that.
5 THE COURT: All right.
6 MR. MOXON: This is -- this is a course pack,
7 your Honor, for the introspection rundown. And in
8 the introspection rundown course pack, it -- it
9 selects from the works of L. Ron Hubbard, from his
10 technical bulletins, various matters that a student
11 needs -- student auditor needs or auditor needs to
12 be trained to be able to deliver the introspection
13 rundown.
14 And if you -- look at the first tab, if you
15 would.
16 THE COURT: Okay.
17 MR. MOXON: There is an issue called "Handling
18 the psychotic."
19 THE COURT: Yes.
20 MR. MOXON: And this, again, will show the
21 evolution of Mr. Hubbard's thought in how to develop
22 ultimately leading to the introspection rundown.
23 And I tabbed here in this book in front of you
24 the same issue. All of the issues that you will
25 find in the course packs will be in these bulletins.
Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida
Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500
Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500
60
1 "Handling the psychotic" then would appear in this
2 first volume of the technical bulletins, the same
3 issue.
4 THE COURT: Volume 1, Number 6. Okay.
5 MR. MOXON: And the same would be true as -- as
6 an auditor is trained to read these various issues
7 written by the founder concerning how one would
8 handle someone who has the condition that is
9 displayed -- for someone who needs an introspection
10 rundown, in psychotics or psychosis, and eventually
11 as you go through the years in this, you'll find you
12 come up to the actual introspection rundown, the
13 technical breakthrough of 1973.
14 THE COURT: Who would take this, the case
15 supervisor?
16 MR. MOXON: Well, a case supervisor would study
17 it. But you have to be at a certain level to even
18 do this course. You'll see in the classification
19 and gradation film there is -- in fact, I can show
20 you in here.
21 THE COURT: I guess an auditor would need to
22 know this, wouldn't he?
23 MR. MOXON: An auditor in training. You would
24 have to be at a certain pretty high level that we
25 would call a Class 5 auditor to even be able to do
Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida
Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500
Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500
61
1 it.
2 I'm showing you here in the handbook a copy of
3 grade chart, gradation chart, also known as the
4 bridge. And in order to do this course you have to
5 be trained up here to a level of Class 5. And once
6 you are at that level, you have done all of the
7 preliminary training levels, so you can do -- the
8 basic Scientology auditing, then you can do a
9 specialty course like this to be --
10 THE COURT: So you just don't go in the first
11 day you are -- you joined the Church and say, "I
12 want to take this course"?
13 MR. MOXON: Lord, no. You have to be well
14 trained in Scientology. Scientology auditors are
15 very well trained.
16 But let me show you this one, this issue. I
17 pulled out Volume 10 of the technical bulletins
18 which in chronological order will have this first
19 issue of the introspection rundown. You remember
20 there were some witnesses that said, "Well, we don't
21 know, we haven't heard of the introspection
22 rundown."
23 Well, of course it is all right there in the
24 volumes. They are all in chronological order, and
25 these are available to all Scientologists. And, in
Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida
Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500
Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500
62
1 fact, all Scientologists are encouraged to purchase
2 these volumes for their own study, as well as
3 training by auditors.
4 And one of these booklets here, this real big
5 one of the technical volumes, is auditing rundowns.
6 And this one -- all of the various rundowns of
7 Scientology are included. And introspection rundown
8 is also included here. The same issue.
9 THE COURT: So these are available to people to
10 purchase or --
11 MR. MOXON: Sure.
12 THE COURT: Okay.
13 MR. MOXON: Absolutely. Now, to be trained to
14 deliver it, you, of course, have to be a Scientology
15 minister.
16 THE COURT: Sure.
17 MR. MOXON: You have to have the prerequisites
18 to deliver it and deliver it competently.
19 THE COURT: Okay.
20 MR. MOXON: We'll mark the introspection
21 rundown, actually, as an exhibit, your Honor.
22 THE COURT: All right.
23 MR. MOXON: That would be next Exhibit --
24 MR. DANDAR: 306.
25 MR. MOXON: 306?
Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida
Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500
Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500
63
1 THE COURT: That is this one right here?
2 MR. MOXON: Yes. The course pack of the
3 introspection rundown.
4 MR. DANDAR: Do you have a copy for me?
5 MR. MOXON: Yes. Yes.
6 THE COURT: I'll give you back the red book.
7 MR. MOXON: It is good exercise, hauling these
8 books.
9 THE COURT: Okay. What number is this?
10 MR. MOXON: That is --
11 MR. DANDAR: Can't I get the same kind the
12 Court gets?
13 THE COURT: Oh, Mr. Dandar. Put it in your
14 own -- put it in your own --
15 MR. WEINBERG: The last one was 306.
16 MR. MOXON: 306 is the introspection rundown.
17 THE COURT: Did you get one, madam clerk?
18 THE CLERK: No, Judge.
19 THE COURT: You want me to give her this after
20 I'm done with it?
21 MR. MOXON: Yes.
22 Now, there is another group of books here,
23 these blue books --
24 THE COURT: I'll tell you what, do you have a
25 copy like that? If you do -- sometimes I like to
Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida
Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500
Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500
64
1 make notes on stuff. And I hate to make notes on
2 something that might become an original. So --
3 MR. MOXON: That one is yours. I have given
4 the clerk the good copy.
5 THE COURT: So I'll keep this. I'll keep one
6 in the notebook. And the number -- you don't mind
7 if I write on this?
8 MR. MOXON: That is yours, your Honor.
9 MR. WEINBERG: 306.
10 THE COURT: Okay. All right.
11 MR. MOXON: All right, next stop on the tour is
12 the research and discovery series. Now, these books
13 represent transcripts of Mr. Hubbard's lectures.
14 Obviously it is easier to read, sometimes, a
15 transcript than this book of words in these
16 lectures. But to date only 15 of these have been
17 made available. And the Church is still
18 transcribing lectures. Some of the tape-recorded
19 lectures which were made as much as 50 years ago
20 have -- unfortunately, they were original copies,
21 they have deteriorated so much that the tapes are
22 very difficult to hear. And so everything is being
23 transcribed in a -- in a transcription form.
24 THE COURT: What did Mr. Miscavige mean in his
25 New Year's speech when he indicated that everything
Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida
Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500
Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500
65
1 has been now put on plates and all of the plates
2 were in vaults and they could withstand up to atomic
3 bomb force? Would this be the plates that make up
4 printings of these books?
5 MR. MOXON: Actually, they were put in a
6 different form. As you know, Scientologists believe
7 we're going to be here a long time; no matter what
8 happens to this world, there is going to be
9 Scientology in the future, even if there is an
10 atomic war.
11 There are plates that are put together in a
12 form, like in a titanic form, so regardless of what
13 happens in the future of our society, at some point
14 the works of Mr. Hubbard will still be available.
15 THE COURT: So the plates are actually plates
16 where you could run off the books?
17 MR. MOXON: Sure. That is right.
18 THE COURT: Okay.
19 MR. MOXON: There is another thing. We
20 mentioned this in another hearing, "Background and
21 Ceremonies" book.
22 THE COURT: Yes, I have that. I have that.
23 That was given to me in this hearing or -- mine has
24 gold on it.
25 MR. MOXON: Oh, it does? That is a nice one.
Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida
Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500
Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500
66
1 THE COURT: Is there another one that has gold
2 on it?
3 MR. MOXON: No.
4 THE COURT: I have one that looks like this,
5 and I thought it had gold leaf on it.
6 MR. MOXON: Well, this book has been for
7 marriage ceremonies, ordinations, funeral
8 ceremonies.
9 THE COURT: This is it. I have this.
10 MR. MOXON: It also has a number of sermons,
11 sermons delivered to groups. So this is essentially
12 a book for delivery of Scientology services to
13 groups, and it includes group auditing from the
14 actual sermons themselves. But it's a compilation
15 taken from the books and reported lectures of
16 Mr. Hubbard.
17 THE COURT: Mr. Dandar, when I indicate to you
18 I have this, this is not that anybody has given this
19 to me in some ex parte fashion.
20 When I had the criminal case, certain books
21 were provided with tabs because of certain
22 references being referred to. And, quite frankly,
23 once I had -- which I had for a long time. And I
24 had all kinds of boxes for a long time. And I think
25 by the time I finally got rid of all of the boxes, I
Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida
Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500
Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500
67
1 had become involved in the civil case. So I just
2 thought, "Well, I'll keep the books because I bet
3 I'll have them referred to again." And, you know
4 what, sure enough, I have indeed. So I have that
5 book.
6 MR. MOXON: The last book I want to show you is
7 a book --
8 THE COURT: I have this one.
9 MR. MOXON: Good. This is "What is
10 Scientology."
11 THE COURT: "What is Scientology." This is one
12 of the ones I have -- the other one I have. And the
13 other one I have like this is tabbed, but I'm sure
14 it is tabbed with things that Mr. Fugate and -- were
15 you on that, Sandy?
16 MR. WEINBERG: Yes, I was.
17 THE COURT: -- wanted me to see in the criminal
18 case. But I do have this.
19 MR. MOXON: This book is a companion to the
20 "Scientology Handbook." The "Scientology Handbook"
21 I think includes kind of a "how to" on a lot of the
22 issues and general concepts and doctrines of
23 Scientology.
24 And "What is Scientology book is an
25 encyclopedic reference on Scientology. It has been
Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida
Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500
Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500
68
1 compiled in exact accordance with Mr. Hubbard's
2 instructions, and it includes statistical figures
3 showing growth of the Church, new churches. And it
4 is periodically updated to reflect expansion, but
5 otherwise the content remains unchanged.
6 THE COURT: Okay.
7 MR. MOXON: You have a copy of that?
8 THE COURT: Yes. I'm just pretty sure I have
9 this. Yes, I do.
10 MR. MOXON: Well, that is the end of my tour.
11 THE COURT: Now I know what it is. This was
12 given to me in the criminal case. I didn't know
13 what the front even meant. I presume that is the
14 bridge?
15 MR. MOXON: Exactly right.
16 THE COURT: I did not know that then.
17 MR. WEINBERG: We should have done a tour back
18 then.
19 MR. MOXON: Any questions, your Honor?
20 MR. LIEBERMAN: Probably if that would have
21 continued, you would have gotten the tour.
22 Fortunately --
23 THE COURT: Yes, if the case continued, I
24 probably would have been through the books.
25 MR. MOXON: That --
Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida
Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500
Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500
69
1 THE COURT: No, I have no questions. Thank
2 you. I did have the one question and I think you
3 have answered it.
4 MR. MOXON: Thank you.
5 MR. WEINBERG: So we would offer 292 through
6 306.
7 THE COURT: All right. Those are the Church
8 policy letters and some --
9 MR. WEINBERG: Those other things. I think
10 that is where we are, madam clerk, 306?
11 THE CLERK: That is correct.
12 MR. WEINBERG: All right.
13 THE COURT: All right.
14 MR. FUGATE: Judge, thank you for your
15 indulgence.
16 THE COURT: Yes. I think this one was not
17 meant to be given to me -- oh, yes, that one was.
18 That is tabbed.
19 MR. WEINBERG: Yes.
20 THE COURT: Oh, yes. That I did not have.
21 It is ten until three. Shall we break now for
22 the afternoon break, or --
23 MR. FUGATE: Let me give you this and that will
24 complete this. This is 291, which is the composite
25 exhibit, and what I did is it is A through H. Each
Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida
Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500
Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500
70
1 individual affidavit I marked at the bottom. You
2 can put your number on. I'll give it to Mr. Dandar.
3 And they're all virtually the same, Judge.
4 And they are affidavits of various captains
5 within the Sea Org, and they basically state under
6 oath that to their knowledge there has never been a
7 position known as the captain of the Sea Org, and
8 they tell you how long they have been in for that
9 affidavit -- for each individual purpose.
10 And they indicate that they know Mr. Miscavige
11 to be a captain, as they are, and that they have
12 always known him or referred to him as chairman of
13 the board of RTC.
14 And each one is identical. It is put in for
15 the purpose of rebuttal of that.
16 I'm now giving Mr. Dandar one that is A through
17 H. Each one is individually marked. And with that
18 I move it into evidence.
19 And it is time for a break.
20 THE COURT: All right. The number of this,
21 again, was?
22 MR. FU