Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida
Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500
Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500
1
1
2
3 IN THE CIRCUIT COURT FOR PINELLAS COUNTY, FLORIDA
4 CASE NO. 00-5682-CI-11
5
6
7
DELL LIEBREICH, as Personal
8 Representative of the ESTATE OF
LISA McPHERSON,
9
10 Plaintiff,
11 vs. VOLUME 1
12 CHURCH OF SCIENTOLOGY FLAG
SERVICE ORGANIZATION, JANIS
13 JOHNSON, ALAIN KARTUZINSKI
and DAVID HOUGHTON, D.D.S.,
14
Defendants.
15
_______________________________________/
16
17
18 PROCEEDINGS: Defendants' Omnibus Motion for
Terminating Sanctions and Other Relief.
19
CONTENTS: Testimony of Peter Alexander.
20
DATE: June 7, 2002, morning session.
21
PLACE: Courtroom B, Judicial Building
22 St. Petersburg, Florida.
23 BEFORE: Honorable Susan F. Schaeffer,
Circuit Judge.
24
REPORTED BY: Donna M. Kanabay, RMR, CRR,
25 Deputy Official Court Reporter,
Sixth Judicial Circuit of Florida.
2
1 APPEARANCES:
2
MR. KENNAN G. DANDAR
3 DANDAR & DANDAR
5340 West Kennedy Blvd., Suite 201
4 Tampa, FL 33602
Attorneys for Plaintiff.
5
MR. LUKE CHARLES LIROT
6 LUKE CHARLES LIROT, PA
112 N East Street, Street, Suite B
7 Tampa, FL 33602-4108
Attorney for Plaintiff
8
MR. KENDRICK MOXON
9 MOXON & KOBRIN
1100 Cleveland Street, Suite 900
10 Clearwater, FL 33755
Attorney for Church of Scientology Flag Service
11 Organization.
12 MR. LEE FUGATE and
MR. MORRIS WEINBERG, JR.
13 ZUCKERMAN, SPAEDER
101 E. Kennedy Blvd, Suite 1200
14 Tampa, FL 33602-5147
Attorneys for Church of Scientology Flag Service
15 Organization.
16 MR. BRUCE HOWIE
5720 Central Avenue
17 St. Petersburg, Florida.
Attorney for Robert Minton.
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
3
1 INDEX TO PROCEEDINGS AND EXHIBITS
2 PAGE LINE
3 PETER NICHOLAS ALEXANDER 22 11
DIRECT Mr. Dandar 22 14
4 Recess 67 2
Recess 139 8
5 Reporter's Certificate 140 1
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8
9
10
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12
13
14
15
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17
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25
4
1 (The proceedings resumed at 9:07 a.m.)
2 THE COURT: All right.
3 MR. DANDAR: Judge, before we call our witness,
4 Mr. Alexander, who's in the courtroom, I just want
5 to bring to the court something that I tried to work
6 out but I couldn't.
7 THE COURT: Okay.
8 MR. DANDAR: We filed a request to produce at
9 hearing against -- for the Church of Scientology to
10 produce certain things. They filed a written reply.
11 We talked about this, I think, yesterday.
12 And in request number 3, it asks for each and
13 every routing slip concerning Lisa McPherson, and
14 they responded I already had it. And they referred
15 to a letter they sent to me July 31st, 1998.
16 I confirmed with my office. That letter just
17 says, "Attached are documents." It doesn't say what
18 they are. It doesn't refer to any Bates numbers so
19 we can try to figure out what they are calling a
20 routing form or a routing slip.
21 THE COURT: What is a base number?
22 MR. DANDAR: Bates.
23 THE COURT: Oh, Bates.
24 MR. DANDAR: Where they'll put FSO and they'll
25 put a number after it.
5
1 So I'm asking the court to require them to
2 produce what is known as routing slips or routing
3 forms on Lisa McPherson Monday morning, because I
4 have no way to ascertain what they're referring to
5 as routing slips. Because they never mentioned the
6 word in this letter of July 31st, 1998, nor do they
7 mention it on March 23rd, 2000 in a hearing before
8 Judge Moody, which they refer to also in response to
9 request number 3. I just don't -- I can't find it,
10 I don't think I have it. They say I have it, but
11 there's no document that says, "We've produced the
12 routing forms to you and here they are."
13 THE COURT: Okay.
14 MR. FUGATE: Your Honor, we had this discussion
15 before we came in -- before you came in this
16 morning. I looked at them. I looked at -- I looked
17 back as I said, looked at everything. I told him,
18 "You've got them. I'll get the Bates numbers for
19 you."
20 THE COURT: Mr. Howie, you're not leaving me,
21 are you?
22 MR. HOWIE: No, your Honor. I'll be right
23 back. Promise.
24 THE COURT: Well, all right.
25 MR. FUGATE: And I -- the only thing I can tell
6
1 your Honor is I'm trying to get the Bates numbers.
2 I'll give him the Bates numbers. If he still can't
3 find them -- I guess we've got to be the file clerk
4 and go give them to him again. But I checked myself
5 to see that they had been delivered, and I'm getting
6 the Bates numbers of the actual items.
7 Because as you'll recall the other day, there
8 was testimony about, well, these had these
9 fraudulent FDLE Bates numbers on them. Mr. Dandar
10 knows that everything that's in this case that was
11 received and provided to him and to the estate was
12 carefully Bates numbered so that it identified who
13 the documents had come from -- state attorney's
14 office, FDLE, Clearwater PD; whether it came from
15 FSO, whether it came from Mr. Dandar -- so we can
16 keep track internally of whatever it was.
17 So if I can get Bates numbers, I'll give the
18 Bates numbers today. I've put a call in for that.
19 I don't have the file with me today to pull that
20 out. I can tell you I've looked at it, I know that
21 it went there. So I don't know what the problem is
22 with his office. But I will get the Bates numbers
23 and give it to him.
24 THE COURT: Okay. I have -- if you -- if you
25 gave that to him with a lot of other things and it
7
1 didn't say "routing slips," I suppose I can
2 understand that. I just know from this one hearing
3 and several other things we've had, things can get
4 fairly massive. And if he didn't know what the
5 routing slips were, then I'm going to request that
6 you give him either the Bates numbers --
7 MR. FUGATE: I would tell the court I've asked
8 to get the Bates numbers and --
9 THE COURT: Would that do it for you?
10 MR. DANDAR: Then we'll go and see if we can
11 figure it out and if we can find it in our office.
12 It would be so much easier -- I mean, if they're
13 going to pull out the Bates numbers they might as
14 well just pull out the form --
15 THE COURT: If the Bates numbers have the
16 forms -- I don't know if these are massive or
17 whether these are just 10 documents. I have no idea
18 because I don't know what a routing -- I don't know
19 what a routing slip is. But --
20 MR. FUGATE: Well, a routing slip is a
21 misnomer.
22 But I will go back and look at them. You know,
23 I just -- to tell you the truth, I looked at
24 everything the other night and I couldn't tell you,
25 as I stand here, how many there were.
8
1 THE COURT: You're not feeling good today.
2 MR. FUGATE: No, I'm not.
3 THE COURT: I can tell.
4 MR. FUGATE: But I will -- I've put a call back
5 in to get the Bates numbers and I'll get those.
6 And also I told -- Mr. Dandar requested -- I
7 told Mr. Lirot and Mr. Dandar we'll put together --
8 we will provide, actually, the entire Dell Liebreich
9 depositions, but we will put together the page
10 numbers for him that we intend to play in our --
11 what we call the highlighted portions of the videos.
12 And I told him that when I have that put together,
13 I'll leave a message on his answering machine at his
14 office so that he knows what portions we're going to
15 have on what day.
16 THE COURT: Okay.
17 MR. FUGATE: And we can clear that up too.
18 THE COURT: And then, of course, you can, I
19 suppose, for cross examination, if you want to,
20 either play a part, or if you just want to read a
21 part. But what we've agreed to is that since it's
22 coming from a document, that the document will be
23 introduced. So as far as I'm concerned, you can
24 waive and refer to it or you can simply refer me in
25 your cross examination to page and line or play it
9
1 on the machine or whatever you want to do.
2 MR. FUGATE: And we will give, obviously, a
3 copy of the tape, what I call a compendium that
4 we're going to play -- we'll give them a copy of it
5 on Monday as well, Judge.
6 THE COURT: Okay.
7 MR. FUGATE: So you've got it both ways.
8 THE COURT: Good. That sounds like a
9 reasonable solution.
10 MR. DANDAR: I'd like to request the court to
11 give Mr. Fugate permission to sit, not to stand,
12 because he doesn't look too well at all.
13 MR. FUGATE: I think I feel better standing up.
14 THE COURT: Do you? Well, he does look bad.
15 And he approached me in the hall with great caution,
16 saying, "I'm going to stand way back." And I said,
17 "Please do." So he --
18 This is an order. You're not going to get real
19 close to any of us if you're not feeling well.
20 MR. WEINBERG: I'm just hoping it stays in that
21 direction, because it's Lieberman, Fugate --
22 THE COURT: Right.
23 MR. WEINBERG: Let's hope it doesn't work
24 around the table --
25 THE COURT: Your lady over there. I don't know
10
1 her name --
2 MR. FUGATE: Sarah.
3 THE COURT: Sarah, I'd be real careful if I
4 were you, because it looks like it's going that way.
5 Mr. Howie. Where is Mr. Howie?
6 MR. FUGATE: Judge, for the record, the Bates
7 numbers, Mr. Dandar, FSO --
8 THE COURT: Wait a second. He doesn't even
9 have a piece of paper.
10 MR. DANDAR: Go ahead.
11 MR. FUGATE: FSO003751 through FSO3984.
12 MR. DANDAR: Okay. Thank you.
13 THE COURT: Mr. --
14 MR. FUGATE: The routing slips or what he's
15 asked for as the routing slips.
16 THE COURT: What do you call them?
17 MR. DANDAR: Routing forms.
18 MR. FUGATE: Routing forms.
19 THE COURT: Mr. Howie?
20 MR. HOWIE: Yes, your Honor.
21 THE COURT: What did you learn about this --
22 this little form that I found out about, in looking
23 at schedule B of the income tax return?
24 MR. HOWIE: Your Honor, Mr. Minton wishes to
25 raise Fifth Amendment privilege against the court's
11
1 request.
2 THE COURT: Okay. And if he were called to
3 testify, which is what -- there may -- in fact he
4 may still be called back because there's an
5 additional affidavit. But if he is not called back,
6 may I assume that if I call him back and
7 specifically asked him those questions, he would
8 assert his Fifth Amendment privilege?
9 MR. HOWIE: Yes, your Honor. That's correct.
10 THE COURT: All right. Then -- then I will not
11 call him back for that purpose. Because frankly, I
12 don't think there's any need for it. I think the
13 record's been made.
14 Thank you.
15 MR. HOWIE: Your Honor, as long as I --
16 THE COURT: Yes.
17 MR. HOWIE: Have the court's attention,
18 concerning the notes received from Mr. Jonas, I have
19 been trying to contact Mr. Jonas. I have reason to
20 believe he'll be available in just a few minutes.
21 My concern is that one page appears to be not
22 merely work product but Mr. Jonas's own mental
23 impressions. And I want to make positive that
24 Mr. Jonas intended for me to have it.
25 THE COURT: All right.
12
1 MR. HOWIE: It'll be a few minutes, and I'll be
2 able to respond -- I'll be available to respond to
3 the court concerning discovery of these notes.
4 THE COURT: I appreciate that. Thank you. And
5 if you -- if you'd let me know when you --
6 I guess that's to be turned -- is that
7 something that was request to produce?
8 MR. DANDAR: Right. But if they're going to
9 assert a privilege, I'd like to have the court look
10 at it in camera to ascertain if the privilege
11 applies.
12 MR. HOWIE: Well, it's actually mental
13 impressions, and it would be for Mr. Jonas to raise
14 that.
15 THE COURT: I don't remember -- I'm sorry.
16 I've forgotten. I know -- what was it?
17 MR. HOWIE: The court's original request,
18 according to my notes of May 28th, is that there
19 were seven or eight broad areas of concern that were
20 discussed during the meeting on March 28th --
21 THE COURT: Yeah.
22 MR. HOWIE: -- in New York: Domain names,
23 releases, litigation and further funding. "Steve
24 Jonas has a copy of the list of these concerns; may
25 have his own work product notes."
13
1 THE COURT: Well, then what we -- what I have
2 ordered him basically to produce, or I have asked
3 you to -- to get, would be the seven or eight --
4 whatever those areas were. So frankly, as long as
5 that's produced, whatever else is on there, I don't
6 think that we need.
7 MR. HOWIE: And I question whether this is
8 responsive to that --
9 THE COURT: Okay.
10 MR. HOWIE: This particular page.
11 THE COURT: All right.
12 MR. HOWIE: Thank you.
13 MR. DANDAR: And we still have not received
14 Mr. Rosen's notes.
15 THE COURT: Yes. Where's Mr. Rosen's ---
16 MR. FUGATE: Your Honor, I can tell you that I
17 too have a phone call in to Mr. Jonas, because I
18 have spoken to Mr. Rosen in New York, and he has
19 requested, because of the confidentiality agreement
20 letter that was signed off on that came from Jonas
21 and Minton to him, that I get Mr. Jonas to authorize
22 the disclosure of the notes so that there's no
23 breach, as far as Mr. Rosen is concerned, under
24 that -- I suspect that as soon as I'm able to talk
25 to Mr. Jonas, he will say that he has no problem and
14
1 will send a note to that effect, and then I would
2 have -- will get with Mr. Rosen to get the notes.
3 Because there's a similar situation, I believe,
4 with the notes, that -- that there are notes that
5 reflect the listing that the court has asked about,
6 and there are notes that I need to talk to him about
7 to determine whether they're conversations -- notes
8 of conversations with the client, apart from
9 Mr. Minton, et cetera.
10 And so I will be able to do that today or -- if
11 no later than Monday.
12 And the -- the other request is it's a limited
13 waiver as to Mr. Rosen and the notes as to produce
14 the notes pursuant to the court's position of the
15 notes, not --
16 THE COURT: I thought there had been a general
17 waiver by both the church and by Mr. Minton.
18 MR. FUGATE: There -- there was a general
19 waiver that -- that there could be--- because of the
20 allegation that there was blackmail and extortion,
21 that what was discussed at the meeting could be made
22 known to the court. Because that just isn't the
23 fact. There is no blackmail and extortion.
24 But what he's concerned about is the waiver of
25 attorney-client and work product beyond that. And
15
1 what he's asked is that -- to limit it. Which I
2 think is fair. A limited waiver of producing the
3 notes is not a general waiver of attorney-client
4 privilege or work product on all the issues.
5 And it's a pretty simple situation, Judge, as
6 far as I'm concerned.
7 THE COURT: Okay. Well, we'll address it if we
8 have to. But in any event --
9 MR. FUGATE: I have -- I have spoken to him.
10 THE COURT: All right.
11 MR. FUGATE: As I say, I think that's
12 relatively ministerial at this point. And as soon
13 as I talk to Mr. Jonas -- I left a voicemail asking
14 that he just fax, to me and to Mr. Rosen, consent
15 under the agreement.
16 Because despite -- despite some of the
17 allegations to the contrary by counsel, I know
18 Mr. Rosen. And Judge, I have to tell you, he may be
19 aggressive and he may be -- he may also be rude to
20 some other perceptions, but I find him and I know
21 him to be an honest and ethical lawyer. And he's
22 asked me to do those things and to ask the court to
23 permit him to do those things, and I think it's a
24 reasonable request.
25 And he also made one other request, while I'm
16
1 on the subject. And that is he, in preparation for
2 other hearings, is under Judge Baird's case.
3 Mr. Lirot called him as a witness but said he's
4 certainly not subject to the rule of sequestration.
5 I don't know that that's clear in this case.
6 And he asked me to ask your Honor and counsel
7 if it -- to -- is it -- is he permitted to review
8 transcripts of these proceedings to prepare for the
9 other proceedings, whenever they happened, and I
10 said I'd be glad to ask the court.
11 THE COURT: Jeez, I don't know. He's a
12 witness? Mr. Lirot has called him as a witness?
13 MR. FUGATE: Well, they've indicated that they
14 would want to call him as a witness in this
15 proceeding.
16 THE COURT: I see.
17 MR. FUGATE: And I think it would be the same
18 situation as Mr. Dandar --
19 THE COURT: Yeah. Mr. Dandar -- I mean, I
20 don't see why he would be precluded from reading
21 this proceeding.
22 MR. DANDAR: No. But he's also refused to come
23 to this proceeding to testify. We've asked him and
24 you said you had no jurisdiction to compel him. And
25 he still hasn't made himself available for this
17
1 hearing.
2 THE COURT: You know, Counsel, all I can tell
3 you is what I told you the other day. If you want
4 him, subpoena him. If they want him, they can
5 produce him. If they don't produce him --
6 MR. DANDAR: Well, they've already rested, and
7 they're only going to show Dell Liebreich's --
8 MR. WEINBERG: We have not rested.
9 MR. FUGATE: We're allowing you to call
10 Mr. Alexander out of order, I think is where we left
11 off.
12 THE COURT: They haven't rested until they call
13 Ms. Liebreich.
14 MR. DANDAR: Okay.
15 MR. FUGATE: Okay.
16 THE COURT: So they haven't rested.
17 And as I said, surely this man who's going to
18 be up in front of Judge Baird can be served with a
19 subpoena for any -- if you need him -- you don't
20 need to invoke the court to require you to get a
21 witness. It is very easy to get. So if you want
22 him, serve him with a subpoena.
23 MR. DANDAR: I will.
24 Actually, he said in court, in Judge Baird's
25 courtroom -- when I said I needed to subpoena him,
18
1 he said, "You don't have to. I'm an officer of the
2 court." Well, I requested in writing his
3 appearance. He hasn't shown up here yet.
4 But I will subpoena him --
5 THE COURT: Well, I wouldn't blame him. We're
6 in the 18th or 19th day. If you'll just tell him
7 when you want him, then -- then I'm sure he'll come,
8 if he said as, an officer of the court, you didn't
9 have to subpoena him.
10 MR. DANDAR: Let him know I'd like to have him
11 here Monday.
12 MR. FUGATE: Well --
13 That's not a refusal, by the way.
14 And Judge, I'd also ask to resolve the issue --
15 I think -- I think inasmuch as Mr. Rosen is
16 counsel in the companion case, that he's not
17 applicable to the sequestration in reviewing the
18 transcripts any more than Mr. Dandar would be. And
19 I would ask the court's permission to provide him
20 with the transcripts. He has not looked at them
21 because that issue is up in the air. I frankly
22 don't think it's an issue. But before I provide
23 them to him, he asked me to ask your Honor if he
24 could review them in preparation -- not to be a
25 witness, but in preparation for his proceedings.
19
1 THE COURT: Identical proceedings?
2 MR. FUGATE: Yeah.
3 THE COURT: Okay.
4 MR. DANDAR: There's three of them going on.
5 THE COURT: Well -- well, you know, somebody
6 needs to -- if anybody cares, I suppose somebody
7 could file a motion to stay or do something. I
8 mean, everything keeps going unless somebody does
9 something to -- if you'd like to file a motion to
10 stay here, I would certainly entertain it.
11 MR. FUGATE: I would, Judge --
12 THE COURT: I mean, you know, I would be happy
13 to entertain same.
14 MR. DANDAR: We did -- we did file a motion
15 before Judge Baird and that was denied.
16 THE COURT: Well, file it again. I mean -- I
17 don't know. But I -- you've asked me to set this
18 case for August. And I think that that's pretty,
19 you know, assuming that you get to trial, I think
20 that you're -- you're kidding yourself. But you're
21 sure kidding yourself if you end up in front of a
22 similar hearing to this anyplace else.
23 So I mean, you either need to file your motion
24 to stay and have it denied, whereupon you need to
25 tell me, "Judge, I can't be ready," so we can get
20
1 another date, or you need to just concede that. I
2 mean -- something.
3 But I have no problem with Mr. Rosen reviewing
4 these transcripts.
5 MR. FUGATE: Thank you, your Honor.
6 THE COURT: And Mr. Dandar, I take it you do
7 not either?
8 MR. DANDAR: No, I do not.
9 THE COURT: Okay.
10 MR. FUGATE: Thank you, your Honor.
11 THE COURT: And you want Mr. Rosen here Monday?
12 MR. DANDAR: Yes.
13 THE COURT: Let's say -- I mean, whatever
14 you're going to do with Ms. Liebreich would be a
15 Monday-morning presentation?
16 MR. FUGATE: Well, I -- I have no idea what
17 Mr. Rosen's schedule is, Judge, and I don't know --
18 THE COURT: I understand that. He's requested
19 it. All Mr. Rosen said he needed was a request. If
20 he has a bad schedule, then he needs to communicate
21 that with Mr. Dandar. They need to get on the
22 telephone and work it out. Just that simple. If he
23 says, "I don't want to work it out this way," then
24 Mr. Dandar needs to subpoena him. I'm not going to
25 use the court's power to --
21
1 MR. FUGATE: I understand.
2 THE COURT: -- order a lawyer appearing in
3 Florida pro hoc vice to appear when a lawyer wants
4 him.
5 MR. FUGATE: And I apologize. I --
6 THE COURT: If I were you, Mr. Dandar, I'd get
7 on the telephone and call the man, and I'd call him
8 and tell him, "I want you here pursuant to your
9 suggestion."
10 MR. DANDAR: I will do that.
11 THE COURT: If he says, "I've got to be in New
12 York," I think I'd say, "I understand that. Come
13 Tuesday." If he says, "I've got to be someplace
14 else," then say, "Come Wednesday." And if it keeps
15 going like that, I'd say, "I don't think this is
16 working. Where can I subpoena you?"
17 MR. DANDAR: I will make my best effort, and I
18 will call him.
19 THE COURT: All right.
20 MR. FUGATE: Did I give you the Bates numbers?
21 MR. DANDAR: Yes, you did.
22 THE COURT: Okay.
23 MR. FUGATE: That's it, Judge, from me.
24 MR. WEINBERG: I think he's having a tough day.
25 THE COURT: Okay. I understand that since we
22
1 have just Mr. Alexander -- and you said an hour --
2 MR. DANDAR: No. I'm way off.
3 THE COURT: What does that mean?
4 MR. DANDAR: It's going to be several hours.
5 THE COURT: Well, then let's get going. If we
6 finish with Mr. Alexander, we're going to quit for
7 the day, but if we don't, obviously, we'll just work
8 through the day.
9 Mr. Alexander.
10 _______________________________________
11 PETER NICHOLAS ALEXANDER,
12 the witness herein, being first duly sworn, was examined
13 and testified as follows:
14 DIRECT EXAMINATION
15 BY MR. DANDAR:
16 Q State your full name and spell your last name.
17 A Peter Nicholas Alexander, A-l-e-x-a-n-d-e-r.
18 Q Now, Mr. Alexander, can you give the court your
19 educational background?
20 A I was a graduate of Long Beach State in
21 California. When I was going to school, I worked in the art
22 department, the production part of CBS Television. After
23 graduation, I went to work for Hughes Aircraft. I was a
24 contract administrator, and then I was a staff engineer in
25 systems engineering.
23
1 I started writing film scripts. And I sold one to
2 MacGillivray Freeman Films, and then I went to work for Walt
3 Disney Productions at a place called Walter Elias Disney
4 Enterprises. WED. And that's where they design all the
5 theme parks. And so they wanted me to combine my technical
6 background with some creativity. And I was posted as the
7 director of project management, which meant I was in charge
8 of the estimating department, the scheduling department, the
9 cost control department and some of the project managers
10 while they built Tokyo Disneyland and the Epcot project.
11 Q The what project?
12 A Epcot.
13 Q Okay. That's the one in Florida?
14 A Yeah.
15 Q All right.
16 A Epcot.
17 And after that, I went to Universal Studios. And
18 I was placed in charge of entertainment there for the
19 Universal Studio tour. And I became the vice-president and
20 executive producer of the Universal Studio tour. And I
21 basically designed most of the attractions for Universal
22 Studios in Hollywood and then Universal Studios, Florida.
23 And then after that, I went into business in 1991
24 on my own.
25 The first thing I did was television shows for
24
1 Nickelodeon. I was producer of two TV shows. And then I
2 started into the theme park attraction business on my own.
3 And I've done that for the last 8 to 10 years, until I wrote
4 a script called The Profit, and I sold it to Bob Minton, and
5 I went and made a movie.
6 Q Now in your education and career, have you come
7 across movie producers or other top executives in the movie
8 industry?
9 A Yes. When I was in college, my roommate in
10 college was Steven Spielberg. And I -- that's where I
11 started actually helping Steve --
12 We made a bicycle race movie.
13 MR. WEINBERG: Your Honor, objection. This is
14 all very interesting but what does this have to do
15 with our motion for terminating sanctions?
16 THE COURT: I don't know, but I was enjoying
17 listening to it. But now that you've asked, I'll
18 ask Mr. Dandar.
19 What does this have to do with it?
20 MR. DANDAR: I'm trying to introduce the court
21 into who Mr. Alexander is, and now we're going to go
22 into the Scientology issues.
23 THE COURT: All right.
24 BY MR. DANDAR:
25 Q Mr. Alexander, were you ever a member of the
25
1 Church of Scientology?
2 A Yes, I was, for about 20 years.
3 Q What years were you a member of the Church of
4 Scientology?
5 A I got into Scientology in April of '77, in Santa
6 Barbara, and I got out in January, February of 1998.
7 Q So from '77 to '98.
8 A Yes.
9 Q And were you a staff member or a public member?
10 A I'm what's called a public member.
11 Q Okay.
12 A Or was.
13 Q Is there any difference in the policies that apply
14 to public members versus staff members?
15 A Well --
16 THE COURT: What is a staff member? Is that a
17 Sea Org member?
18 No? Yes?
19 MR. WEINBERG: No.
20 MR. DANDAR: Yes.
21 MR. MOXON: No. Since you asked us. Not
22 necessarily.
23 THE COURT: Maybe I should ask the witness.
24 MR. MOXON: And I object as to relevance. I
25 don't know what the --
26
1 THE COURT: Well, I don't either, but I want to
2 know and -- if you don't mind, I'd like to know.
3 THE WITNESS: The public members are just
4 people out there in society. They come in and pay
5 for their services. The staff members can either
6 be -- like at a smaller organization, like a
7 mission, they can just be full-time staff members.
8 And then at the higher organizations, they would be
9 members of the Sea Org, which would be like
10 Mr. Moxon over there or --
11 MR. MOXON: I object, your Honor.
12 THE WITNESS: -- or Ben Shaw.
13 MR. MOXON: It's not --
14 THE WITNESS: They would be full-time -- in
15 fact they've all signed billion-year contracts. You
16 know, they're there forever.
17 THE COURT: Okay. Thank you.
18 BY MR. DANDAR:
19 Q Now, is there -- is there policies that apply to
20 the public members that are -- the policies of the Church of
21 Scientology apply differently to public versus staff or Sea
22 Org?
23 A No. The policies apply to everyone. Except for,
24 of course, you know, there are a lot of policies written for
25 just a particular staff function. So --
27
1 Q Okay.
2 A -- that would apply to the staff function.
3 MR. WEINBERG: Objection. Competence, your
4 Honor. This is a man who has never been a staff
5 member, has never -- has never been part of the Sea
6 Org. He's just been a public member, he said, for a
7 period of time, and now he's being --
8 Is he being qualified as an expert on
9 Scientology?
10 THE COURT: I don't know.
11 MR. WEINBERG: Asking him about policies?
12 THE COURT: I don't see any objection there.
13 He just asked if the policies were the same.
14 MR. WEINBERG: Well, here's what my objection
15 is: This hearing isn't about Scientology. The
16 hearing is about our terminating sanctions. I mean,
17 this isn't a hearing to put Scientology on trial.
18 THE COURT: I understand that. But if he wants
19 to -- if he wants to introduce some policies, I
20 suppose -- you know, I don't know where --
21 MR. WEINBERG: But --
22 THE COURT: -- he'd get --
23 MR. WEINBERG: This man isn't the man. He
24 hasn't been qualified as an expert --
25 THE COURT: As far as I'm concerned, at this
28
1 moment he is a fact witness in this hearing, so if
2 you have --
3 MR. WEINBERG: That's why we asked for a
4 proffer yesterday as to what it is he's supposed to
5 be saying, because --
6 THE COURT: Well, we're going to hear.
7 MR. WEINBERG: All right.
8 THE COURT: So if your objection was -- to his
9 telling me what a policy is, that's overruled. If
10 he's incorrect, you know, that's what cross
11 examination is for.
12 MR. WEINBERG: Well, I understand. But if
13 he's -- when we talk about --
14 THE COURT: He is not testifying as an expert,
15 as far as I can see. He is testifying as a fact
16 witness thus far.
17 MR. WEINBERG: Okay. And --
18 THE COURT: And if he's incorrect, you're just
19 going to have to challenge him.
20 MR. WEINBERG: I understand that. But the
21 hearing shouldn't be about whether he's correct or
22 incorrect about Church of Scientology policies.
23 THE COURT: Mr. Dandar indicated that part of
24 the basis for his complaint, which you have
25 challenged in this hearing, was based on documents,
29
1 which I presume include policies. Therefore, I find
2 it's relevant and I think at this stage it's
3 admissible, so --
4 MR. WEINBERG: Okay.
5 THE COURT: -- overruled, if that's an
6 objection.
7 BY MR. DANDAR:
8 Q Mr. Alexander, in your 20-plus years as a public
9 member in the Church of Scientology, how high did you reach
10 on what's called the bridge?
11 A Well, there's two halves of the bridge. On the
12 training side, where you officially and formally study, not
13 very high. But on the counseling-auditing side, I was on
14 OT7, which is the second highest level that's available.
15 Q Okay. Now, in your 20-plus years in Scientology,
16 did you ever come across or study or hear of the
17 introspection rundown?
18 A No.
19 Q In your 20-plus years, did you hear of a division
20 or office of the Church of Scientology called the Office of
21 Special Affairs?
22 A I had no idea. I read it on the org board of
23 Scientology, and I saw the name, and I took a course where I
24 had to know what that was, but I thought it was just legal
25 and public affairs.
30
1 Q Okay. And in your 20-plus years of Scientology,
2 have you estimated how much you've spent on courses?
3 A I contributed a million dollars.
4 Q Why did you leave the Church of Scientology?
5 MR. WEINBERG: Objection --
6 A Well --
7 MR. WEINBERG: -- as to relevance.
8 THE COURT: Yeah. What is the relevance?
9 MR. DANDAR: This is all just background,
10 foundation work. This is foundation.
11 THE COURT: I don't think I need to know that,
12 necessarily.
13 MR. WEINBERG: I didn't object to the amount of
14 money, but I would have. I don't see the relevance
15 of any of this, unless what he's trying to do is
16 make some -- cast some aspersions on the church.
17 People have donated lots of money to
18 organizations, but any money given to the church --
19 THE COURT: I understand that, but I would be
20 rather proud, if I were a member of the church --
21 MR. WEINBERG: I am, but --
22 THE COURT: -- and if somebody contributed a
23 million dollars to my organization.
24 MR. WEINBERG: I understand. That's why I
25 didn't object.
31
1 But I just sort of sense where we're going with
2 this. And I don't think it has anything to do
3 with --
4 THE COURT: And I -- and I think and I find
5 that too often when we get to this area, the
6 objections come too quickly.
7 MR. WEINBERG: I will be quiet.
8 THE COURT: If there's something that --
9 I think we just need to hear this witness --
10 MR. WEINBERG: I'm sorry.
11 MR. DANDAR: Here's my problem, Judge.
12 THE COURT: All right.
13 MR. DANDAR: They, the defendants, have decided
14 to make a motion to disqualify me as counsel,
15 combined with a motion for terminating sanctions,
16 combined with several motions for summary judgment
17 on the wrongful death count, the negligence count.
18 And they just threw it all into this big pile --
19 THE COURT: I agree with you.
20 And frankly, as I was thinking about this last
21 night, I kind of wish I hadn't allowed it to go
22 there. But I did. And consequently, I have to give
23 him a great deal of latitude at this hearing at this
24 point. So if I had rethought it, I would have not
25 allowed the motion to dismiss to be done in any
32
1 evidentiary fashion. We'd have done it strictly by
2 motion for summary judgment and we wouldn't be here.
3 But at their request, I allowed it. And therefore,
4 he's going to be given some latitude here.
5 MR. WEINBERG: I understand.
6 THE COURT: Is the basis -- the reason for
7 which he left relevant to any of those issues?
8 MR. DANDAR: It's -- again, it's just a
9 foundation question. It's a foundation question.
10 Because again --
11 THE COURT: It may tend to go to his bias.
12 I'll allow it. I'm not sure why you're asking it,
13 but I'll allow it for that purpose, if nothing else.
14 Go ahead and answer that question.
15 A Okay. What was the question again?
16 BY MR. DANDAR:
17 Q Why did you leave the public membership of the
18 Church of Scientology?
19 A Well, Patricia Greenway, who worked for me, went
20 on the Internet, and she started finding things about
21 Scientology.
22 And I had been under the impression that the
23 founder of Scientology, L. Ron Hubbard, was a nuclear
24 physicist and United States Naval hero. And I found out
25 that the documents on the Internet -- I mean, actual
33
1 transcript -- shows that he flunked out of college; he
2 wasn't a nuclear physicist; he was relieved of command of
3 every ship he ever had, you know. And finally, you know,
4 when I really started looking at the whole history of the
5 Church of Scientology, I found it wasn't the organization
6 that I thought I signed up for.
7 The particular thing that got me was I looked at
8 this document from the Wollersheim case that showed that
9 they were spending a million-five a week, or something
10 like -- some horrendous amount of legal fees. I'm not sure
11 if it was a week or a month, but -- I can't remember.
12 Either way, I looked at that and I -- I thought,
13 "Oh, huh-uh. I don't want to be a part of any group that
14 spends a million-five a week having to cover up all the rest
15 of this stuff. No."
16 MR. WEINBERG: Your Honor, I renew my objection
17 and move to strike that answer. I really -- it just
18 is -- it's the same -- and I'm going to use this
19 word -- garbage that was introduced through all the
20 postings, you know, on cross examination of
21 Mr. Minton and Ms. Brooks. But here he is now
22 testifying as foundation to stuff that he read on
23 the -- read on the Internet.
24 THE COURT: I'm going to allow it, but I'm -- I
25 am going to strike that part that says to cover up.
34
1 I don't -- I don't think that that would be
2 appropriate for this.
3 I think, as far as why he left, that might be
4 something I might want to know, so I'll allow the
5 rest of it.
6 Go ahead.
7 BY MR. DANDAR:
8 Q Have you participated in posting your opinions
9 about the Church of Scientology on the Internet?
10 A I might have posted, since I've been out of
11 Scientology, three or four times, but nothing, really, my
12 opinions about it. Just statements of fact about situations
13 I was involved in.
14 Q Did you -- when you started your company, Totally
15 Fun Company in 1991, where was it located?
16 A Clearwater, downtown.
17 Q Why was it in Clearwater?
18 A Because I was a Scientologist, big-time
19 Scientologist.
20 Q Okay. And what's the -- what's the reason of --
21 of being a -- a big-time Scientologist compared to being in
22 Clearwater? I mean, why?
23 A Oh, because Flag is --
24 MR. DANDAR: Judge, there's just too much noise
25 over there.
35
1 THE COURT: There really is. It's bothering
2 me.
3 If you can ask -- they can step outside and
4 talk as loud as they want.
5 MR. WEINBERG: I just told them. I'm sorry.
6 THE COURT: Thank you.
7 A The reason they come here for -- for Clearwater,
8 for a Scientologist, is Flag is what's called the Mecca of
9 Technical Perfection. It's the place where Scientology is
10 applied a hundred percent standard tech all the time. And
11 it's also the place that you get the upper levels of
12 Scientology. And they're not really offered too many other
13 places.
14 MR. DANDAR: All right. I apparently forgot to
15 have these marked, so let me go ahead and mark them.
16 MR. LIROT: Would you start those at 88? I've
17 already marked these other exhibits.
18 MR. DANDAR: I think the clerk will know that.
19 MR. LIROT: I understand --
20 You didn't know that?
21 THE COURT: That's fine. You can have them
22 marked anything you want.
23 Madam Clerk, mark that as 88.
24 Can the lawyers for the church tell me how many
25 books I have on this terminating sanctions? Do you
36
1 have any idea what you -- I mean, I'm talking
2 about --
3 MR. WEINBERG: I do have some idea, yeah.
4 THE COURT: I don't know where these --
5 MR. WEINBERG: Can I just approach?
6 THE COURT: Yeah.
7 This is a defendant's memorandum.
8 I'm off the record for a minute.
9 (A discussion was held off the record.)
10 THE COURT: Now we're back on the record.
11 Apparently we have a motion -- defendant's
12 omnibus motion for terminating sanctions and other
13 relief. Then there was a memorandum of fact and
14 law.
15 MR. WEINBERG: Plus, which had all those
16 exhibits.
17 THE COURT: Yes.
18 And then I've received from time to time little
19 memorandums on certain issues, like bench
20 memorandums.
21 MR. WEINBERG: Bench memos.
22 THE COURT: Somewhere along the line, we
23 agreed -- I shouldn't say we agreed -- the church
24 filed something that indicated they were increasing
25 their motion for terminating sanctions beyond "false
37
1 allegations" to "no basis in fact."
2 MR. WEINBERG: Right.
3 THE COURT: And so I thought, well, okay,
4 because that would seem to me to be some bad faith
5 or something like that. And then I got to thinking
6 about that, and I said, "Well, that's what a summary
7 judgment motion is." So I said to you all, "I don't
8 know; you better file your motion for summary
9 judgment before this thing is over." Because that's
10 what I would think of more typically as the standard
11 way to say there's no basis in fact.
12 MR. WEINBERG: Right.
13 THE COURT: So you have done that. And I have
14 that. And I think that may be at home.
15 MR. WEINBERG: Yeah. We did that.
16 THE COURT: But there's a notebook on that.
17 But where is it -- I thought beyond this at
18 some point in time, either it was said orally or
19 some document was filed that said, "We are going to
20 challenge the no basis in fact --"
21 MR. WEINBERG: Well, we do it --
22 THE COURT: -- for the -- for the complaint in
23 essence.
24 MR. WEINBERG: Yeah. We do it in here.
25 THE COURT: Is it in here?
38
1 MR. WEINBERG: Yeah. It's the -- what we
2 call -- I think the way it was referred is sham
3 pleading. But it talked about that there was no
4 basis for the allegation of murder. It's in this --
5 I mean, that is one of the points that is addressed
6 in the -- in the termination sanctions motion.
7 THE COURT: Well, why are we doing this by
8 evidentiary hearing as opposed to summary judgment?
9 MR. WEINBERG: Well --
10 THE COURT: I mean, normally -- there's no
11 basis in fact; you file a motion for summary
12 judgment, as you have, and they say there's no basis
13 for --
14 MR. WEINBERG: But you can do it either way. I
15 mean, they could either -- he has an obligation to
16 come forward with evidence --
17 THE COURT: Which he could do by affidavit.
18 MR. WEINBERG: He could, but he hasn't.
19 THE COURT: Well, of course, it may be because
20 he's here. I --
21 MR. WEINBERG: Well, we were about --
22 THE COURT: But --
23 MR. WEINBERG: Except --
24 THE COURT: Besides -- besides that, I told
25 him --
39
1 MR. WEINBERG: Except we were about to go to
2 trial in June. I mean the discovery in this case
3 was certainly -- as to that part of that case,
4 should have been over.
5 THE COURT: I understand that. But what I
6 guess I'm saying is he's been here every day from
7 like 9 to 5 --
8 MR. WEINBERG: That's a -- 6 --
9 THE COURT: -- and your book was, you know,
10 three or four inches, I would imagine. And he would
11 have to -- he said he's going to rely on doctors'
12 testimony and what have you, so I presume he's got
13 to take some time to put this together.
14 MR. WEINBERG: But we've taken all those -- I
15 mean, it's not like we haven't -- I mean, you've
16 read them.
17 THE COURT: I understand.
18 What I'm saying is, he maybe hasn't had time to
19 put his materials together, just put the book
20 together to give to me. If he puts the book
21 together and gives it to me and I look through that
22 and determine, after a hearing, a legal hearing,
23 that there is some basis of fact that he has to
24 proceed, then your motion is denied.
25 MR. WEINBERG: Except that --
40
1 THE COURT: What I'm wondering is why it is
2 that we are going through having witnesses come in
3 here like they would at trial, if --
4 MR. DANDAR: I have no idea.
5 MR. WEINBERG: Well, I have a big --
6 THE COURT: I'm sure --
7 MR. WEINBERG: I have a very good idea.
8 THE COURT: Okay.
9 MR. WEINBERG: Because what we have said -- and
10 you have said this -- but we have said -- we were --
11 David Miscavige and the church was accused of murder
12 in -- in September of 1999, which is, you know,
13 coming on three years ago. We've had discovery for
14 three years concerning the so-called murder
15 allegations. And part of the terminating sanction
16 motions is -- is that it is -- and I will use this
17 word. I don't use it all that much -- outrageous --
18 that we are -- we are here today.
19 Mr. Dandar was on the stand for three days, and
20 we asked him the question, "What is the evidence?
21 After all this time, what is the evidence for the
22 allegation that David Miscavige ordered this; that
23 anybody ordered this; that there was an order to --
24 to allow her to die, an order to murder her?"
25 And there is none. There is none. And that's
41
1 why we're here.
2 And if he's got some evidence --
3 He couldn't tell us on the stand. You asked
4 him, I asked him. And if there is some, let him put
5 that person on. And if there is no evidence, it
6 should be dismissed, both for misconduct in the
7 terminating motions and as a summary judgment,
8 because there's no basis in fact.
9 And that's why we're here. I mean --
10 THE COURT: Well, we don't -- a lot of times
11 when we grant a summary judgment, we don't need to
12 worry about terminating sanctions, because that does
13 away with -- I mean, that's what a motion for
14 summary judgment is. Does away with the count.
15 MR. WEINBERG: Right.
16 THE COURT: And this would be a -- a count.
17 This is count I of the complaint.
18 MR. WEINBERG: Right.
19 THE COURT: There is -- I mean, yes, he has got
20 to produce, in response to a motion for summary
21 judgment, affidavits, testimony, which can be sworn
22 depositions that he can file and what have you, to
23 show me that there is an issue of fact for the jury
24 to decide. If he can't do that, then the motion for
25 summary judgment is granted. That's how we do it
42
1 every day in court.
2 MR. WEINBERG: Right.
3 THE COURT: What I'm a little confused about
4 and I got to thinking about this last night, I
5 thought this man was being put on, quite frankly, to
6 tell us about The Profit and whether that had any
7 basis.
8 MR. DANDAR: That's partly right.
9 THE COURT: Okay. Whether that was -- you
10 know, that came up. And I kind of said I thought it
11 was irrelevant, and somehow we got into it anyway.
12 But I -- I guess I'm wondering, in a way -- I
13 don't want to have a mini nonjury trial here.
14 MR. DANDAR: Well, that's how I took it, and
15 I -- that's why I objected to all this, but I
16 couldn't imagine --
17 MR. WEINBERG: Well --
18 MR. DANDAR: The only way you can get an
19 involuntary dismissal of an entire lawsuit is if the
20 plaintiff committed fraud on --
21 THE COURT: Well --
22 MR. DANDAR: -- a material aspect --
23 THE COURT: -- that's an argument that we're
24 going to -- that's -- that's what the motion for
25 terminating sanctions are, that we've got lawyer
43
1 misconduct to remove the lawyer; that there is fraud
2 or there is whatever. Whatever's in the book.
3 MR. WEINBERG: Part of which is this pleading
4 that has been -- that has encompassed this case that
5 has been used for all of these purposes against the
6 Church of Scientology. Which he knew, and the --
7 and the -- and the plaintiff knew had no basis in
8 fact, which is the murder allegation. That's part
9 of it. That's a major part of what we're here for.
10 THE COURT: I understand that. And I do
11 understand that.
12 But I'm still wondering why it is that I'm
13 hearing testimony about this. I mean, you're right.
14 The discovery's been taken. If this is somebody
15 new, that there's been no discovery, then I
16 suppose --
17 MR. WEINBERG: Still should have been
18 dismissed. I mean, if there's something new, it
19 should have been disclosed a long time ago, not now.
20 But you said to Mr. Dandar, "If you got it, you
21 better -- you better bring it on before the end of
22 this hearing."
23 MR. DANDAR: Yeah.
24 MR. WEINBERG: Because so far, I haven't heard
25 it.
44
1 THE COURT: But he could do this by affidavit.
2 MR. WEINBERG: Well --
3 THE COURT: I mean --
4 MR. WEINBERG: But then --
5 THE COURT: That's what we normally do.
6 MR. WEINBERG: But then we -- but then we would
7 say, Your Honor --
8 THE COURT: Can't respond --
9 MR. WEINBERG: -- hold on --
10
11 THE COURT: -- until they take their
12 deposition.
13 MR. WEINBERG: Yeah.
14 THE COURT: And you know what I would say? Go
15 have it. And that would put off his --
16 MR. WEINBERG: Trial.
17 THE COURT: -- day in court.
18 But I don't normally -- no judge has to sit
19 here and listen to this kind of stuff on a motion
20 for summary judgment. In other words, what happens
21 is they file an affidavit, you say, "Wait a minute.
22 This is not fair. I can't -- you know, I've got to
23 go take this man's deposition on all of this stuff
24 before I can respond."
25 MR. WEINBERG: I can't cross examine an
45
1 affidavit.
2 THE COURT: Yeah. Can't cross examine an
3 affidavit.
4 And so I either say you're right, or you're
5 not. You know, in other words, you go off and do
6 your discovery and then you file a counteraffidavit.
7 And then I rule. I don't -- I don't sit here for
8 days on end and listen to whether or not they've got
9 a prima facie case enough to get past a summary
10 judgment. And it sounds to me like that's where
11 we're going with him.
12 MR. WEINBERG: Well -- that -- that's why we
13 asked --
14 THE COURT: We can all do this --
15 MR. WEINBERG: I'm sorry.
16 THE COURT: It's all right.
17 But there's no need for you to gather too
18 close.
19 MR. WEINBERG: I'm not sick yet.
20 THE COURT: I know, but you might have caught
21 whatever it is everybody's got over there.
22 MR. WEINBERG: He just backed me against this
23 table.
24 THE COURT: I mean, has this man been listed as
25 a witness?
46
1 MR. DANDAR: Yes.
2 THE COURT: Have you taken his deposition?
3 MR. WEINBERG: Yes. And he said he knew
4 nothing about the introspection rundown and --
5 I didn't take it. Mr. Moxon did.
6 THE COURT: Okay.
7 MR. WEINBERG: He said he didn't know anything.
8 That's what's so bizarre about why he's here
9 testifying --
10 MR. DANDAR: Well, shall I --
11 MR. WEINBERG: -- about -- what this has to
12 do --
13 And that's why we asked for a proffer
14 yesterday.
15 THE COURT: Well, we can't have proffers of
16 every witness. I mean --
17 MR. WEINBERG: I thought it would be a
18 30-second thing or a minute thing, saying, "This is
19 what we intend to elicit from this witness."
20 THE COURT: I don't normally require lawyers to
21 produce -- make proffers.
22 MR. WEINBERG: I know. But it was for the same
23 reason that you were using about what is -- you
24 know, what are we really doing?
25 MR. DANDAR: Could --
47
1 MR. WEINBERG: I know what we're really doing.
2 And I think, from our perspective --
3 THE COURT: I think what we're doing is I'm
4 sitting here doing a lot of work that you folks need
5 to be doing outside of court and then bring them to
6 me to make a legal ruling on. Not on the
7 terminating sanctions, not on the fraud and not on
8 the lawyer misconduct and not on the perjury,
9 suborning perjury. That's all fine.
10 MR. WEINBERG: And the sham pleading.
11 THE COURT: Sham pleading.
12 MR. WEINBERG: Which is -- I mean, you -- what
13 you said is -- is, "I understand your allegation,"
14 which is, hey, you know, this is wilful misconduct.
15 If you file something this -- this outrageous
16 without having any evidence or basis in fact, and
17 that would reflect on lawyer misconduct as well --
18 THE COURT: Right.
19 MR. WEINBERG: -- because the lawyer did it.
20 But it also sounds very much if -- I remember
21 you saying, like if there's no basis, then that
22 sounds like a summary judgment too.
23 So what you've -- what I think you were
24 thinking is, at the end of this hearing, I may
25 dismiss this case if Mr. Weinberg convinces me,
48
1 based on the lawyer misconduct, you know, filing a
2 pleading and other things without a basis, or I
3 might just, if there is no factual basis, you know,
4 treat this as if it were a motion for summary
5 judgment. I think that's what you were thinking.
6 And I don't think that you're wasting your
7 time, because I think all of --
8 THE COURT: But see, I -- whatever he's going
9 to put on now --
10 MR. WEINBERG: Well, he --
11 THE COURT: -- and we're going to have in
12 essence, if you're going to cross examine him and
13 explore -- because if you don't have this in
14 discovery, you're going to want to cross examine and
15 explore -- well, I don't need to sit here while you
16 all take discovery and -- I really don't. And so I
17 don't know what he knows.
18 Maybe we'll just proceed along a little bit and
19 I'll get it in my mind --
20 MR. WEINBERG: Well, I --
21 THE COURT: -- a little.
22 MR. WEINBERG: But -- but -- just one more
23 thing and I'll sit down.
24 THE COURT: And I think if I don't get it in my
25 mind better come Monday, we're going to have a new
49
1 set of rules. Because I am not going to sit here
2 and go through a summary judgment motion, you
3 know -- so -- so if -- I mean, I just can't sit here
4 and listen to people testify. If they can put it in
5 affidavit form, you can go take their deposition.
6 MR. WEINBERG: And that's the thing on this.
7 THE COURT: You can file counteraffidavits and
8 then we can --
9 MR. WEINBERG: I suppose I could understand
10 calling Jesse Prince, although, you know, we did
11 depose him and all that stuff, and you had his
12 depositions, and I think we've pretty much
13 established he didn't have any material knowledge of
14 this stuff.
15 THE COURT: I don't know if we did or not.
16 MR. WEINBERG: But anyway, I can understand
17 Jesse Prince as it goes to --
18 THE COURT: Yes. Why do I need to listen to
19 Jesse Prince, for example, for six or seven days?
20 MR. WEINBERG: I agree with you on that.
21 MR. DANDAR: The problem, Judge --
22 MR. WEINBERG: Hold on. Let me finish my -- my
23 thought.
24 But Mr. Alexander -- we did take
25 Mr. Alexander's deposition. And my recollection is
50
1 he had no knowledge about anything that would have
2 to do with the murder allegation. So I -- reason I
3 was objecting is, what -- why are we hearing
4 questions about Scientology policies?
5 If -- if he's here to testify about The Profit,
6 I understand that. He can testify about The Profit.
7 THE COURT: That is certainly relevant to this
8 hearing.
9 MR. WEINBERG: Or his --
10 MR. DANDAR: Bob Minton.
11 MR. WEINBERG: -- relationship with Bob Minton.
12 THE COURT: Okay.
13 MR. WEINBERG: I understand that. But I was
14 objecting about testifying about Scientology
15 policies.
16 THE COURT: But then he said -- he said, "Well,
17 you've put me on notice." And I did. That we're
18 going to talk about the fact there was no basis for
19 this pleading. And now he's going to ask him some
20 questions.
21 MR. WEINBERG: But he just said he never heard
22 of the introspection rundown so I don't know --
23 THE COURT: I don't know what he's going to
24 say. We're going to listen here for a few minutes.
25 But I'm telling you all, sometime over the
51
1 weekend I'm going to take this back home and read
2 it. And I expect we're going to have some new rules
3 come Monday.
4 MR. WEINBERG: Fine.
5 THE COURT: Because I am not going to sit here
6 and listen to a summary judgment motion by live
7 witnesses when I can do it very nicely the way I do
8 it in every other case, which is by affidavits,
9 counteraffidavits and an argument, and make a
10 ruling.
11 MR. DANDAR: I'm handing to the court
12 Plaintiff's Exhibit 88 and 89, court's copy. And
13 clerk copy is with the witness.
14 BY MR. DANDAR:
15 Q Mr. Alexander --
16 MR. WEINBERG: Could I say one more thing in
17 that regard, your Honor?
18 THE COURT: Yes.
19 MR. WEINBERG: I -- the purpose of the
20 evidentiary hearing, I believe, went to the
21 disqualification of the attorney issue --
22 THE COURT: Right.
23 MR. WEINBERG: -- which -- which you absolutely
24 needed, I think, under the law, to do an evidentiary
25 hearing on.
52
1 THE COURT: Well --
2 MR. WEINBERG: I think you had to do an
3 evidentiary hearing --
4 THE COURT: I've done a lot of this evidentiary
5 hearing. I've told you it's important. We're going
6 to do more.
7 MR. WEINBERG: We're --
8 THE COURT: I'm not talking about that. I'm
9 talking about hearing the facts of the case.
10 MR. WEINBERG: That's what I'm saying.
11 As to any of the other issues, I don't think
12 you had to do. It wasn't required to do an
13 evidentiary hearing on the other issues. You could
14 have decided on -- on -- on the papers.
15 But I think -- I think the disqual motion, you
16 actually had to do an evidentiary hearing on, if I
17 remember what the law is.
18 THE COURT: Well, that's -- what do you think
19 I've been sitting here for?
20 MR. WEINBERG: I understand.
21 THE COURT: You don't understand me half the
22 time. You just want what you want and you don't
23 even listen to what I'm saying.
24 MR. WEINBERG: I'm trying to listen.
25 THE COURT: Well, as I've said -- I've said
53
1 what I'm going to say. I'm going to listen a little
2 bit here.
3 Come Monday I suspect we're going to have new
4 rules. There we go.
5 MR. DANDAR: Well, I have witnesses flying in
6 out of state, so --
7 THE COURT: I'm going to do the best I can.
8 But I'm wondering why I'm listening to this. So
9 maybe after I start hearing from him, I'll
10 understand it better.
11 MR. DANDAR: All right. Here we go.
12 BY MR. DANDAR:
13 Q Mr. Alexander, I just handed you Plaintiff's
14 Exhibit 88. Can you identify that?
15 A Yes. This is a cover of a Scientology publication
16 called Celebrity Magazine, which is published by the
17 Celebrity Center in Hollywood. And it shows me on the
18 cover.
19 Q You're on the cover.
20 And what -- this was published when? Do you
21 recall?
22 A That would have been 1989. And we were designing
23 Universal Studios in Florida. And this is me sitting on one
24 of the models we built for Universal Studios in Florida.
25 THE COURT: What year is this? 1988?
54
1 THE WITNESS: '89.
2 THE COURT: '89.
3 THE WITNESS: Yeah.
4 BY MR. DANDAR:
5 Q And does every public member of the Church of
6 Scientology get on the cover of Celebrity Magazine?
7 A No. This is, I guess, an honor to be put on the
8 cover. I mean, John Travolta or somebody like that would be
9 on the cover. Not that I'm John Travolta. But I guess they
10 thought I was a celebrity.
11 Q Okay. And what about Exhibit 89? What is that?
12 A That's an article by a trade publication,
13 Amusement Today, about myself and my company.
14 Q It talks about your background?
15 A Yes, it does.
16 MR. DANDAR: Okay. I'd like to move both of
17 these into evidence.
18 MR. WEINBERG: The cover, I have no objection
19 to. The other one, I haven't read. And I have
20 trouble reading it. I don't know what's in here.
21 THE COURT: Well, I'll tell you what, we'll
22 just let it in for -- and you can -- you can ask it
23 to be removed if you want to.
24 MR. WEINBERG: I mean, if he says something
25 negative about Scientology in here --
55
1 THE COURT: I'll let you --
2 MR. WEINBERG: -- I'd object to it.
3 THE COURT: I'll let you -- I can't read it
4 either, to tell you the truth, so it probably
5 doesn't matter what it says, because it's very
6 difficult to read.
7 In any event, they'll both be in, and you can
8 tell me why one should be taken out, if you want to,
9 later.
10 BY MR. DANDAR:
11 Q Mr. Alexander, in your 20-year-plus history with
12 the Church of Scientology, have you ever heard of something
13 called a success story?
14 A Yes.
15 Q What is that?
16 A Every time you complete a course or counseling
17 level, you have to fill out a success story describing how
18 it benefited you.
19 Q And what if it didn't benefit you?
20 A Well, you -- you always try and -- and put the
21 best light you can on it. Because if you don't want to go
22 back and retread the level and do it again, then -- you
23 know, you try and put down whatever it is you gained from
24 it. It may not be much, but you'll put that down.
25 Q And if you don't write a good success story, what;
56
1 you have to do it over again?
2 A Yeah. If you fail the level, then you have to
3 retread, yes.
4 Q And you have to pay for that again?
5 A You might, if -- you might also, if it's a
6 counseling thing, be put in what's called review, where you
7 have to get additional hours, and pay for that.
8 Q And in your experience with the Church of
9 Scientology, who is the head of Scientology?
10 A David Miscavige.
11 Q And in what capacity does he exercise that
12 leadership role?
13 A When he --
14 MR. MOXON: Objection, your Honor. Foundation.
15 THE COURT: Overruled.
16 A Okay. When he spoke, he was introduced as the
17 chairman of the board. And whenever he would appear on,
18 like, the magazine covers, he was captain of the Sea Org.
19 You know, he'd be in front of all the Sea Org people.
20 BY MR. DANDAR:
21 Q What is the Sea Org?
22 A It's the professional forever staff of
23 Scientology. It's like a -- well, semi-military
24 organization that the people who have signed that
25 billion-year contract to be Scientologists basically
57
1 forever, or for a million years, belong to.
2 Q And who -- is there a head of the Sea Org?
3 A Yes.
4 MR. WEINBERG: Objection. Foundation. Your
5 Honor, I don't think he said -- I think he was never
6 in the Sea Org.
7 THE COURT: Well, I don't know -- I mean, if I
8 were in a church, would seem like I'd have some
9 knowledge of the working of the church, if I'd been
10 a member for 20 years. I don't know that I'd have
11 to be --
12 MR. WEINBERG: It's sort of like asking a
13 Catholic parishioner, you know, what happens in the
14 hierarchical structure of the Catholic Church over
15 in the Vatican.
16 MR. DANDAR: Well --
17 MR. WEINBERG: They may or may not -- you know,
18 someone may or may not know. But -- but that's
19 what -- you know, that's what foundation is all
20 about.
21 And again, what's that have to do with this
22 hearing?
23 THE COURT: Well, it has a lot to do with this
24 hearing, because your challenge is that David
25 Miscavige, as chair of the Sea Org, had -- had no
58
1 basis of -- didn't -- I'm sorry -- had no part in
2 ordering the death of Lisa McPherson or anything of
3 the sort. So I mean, I suppose that's where he's
4 going. And that's the only reason I can assume that
5 he's going there, so --
6 MR. DANDAR: You're correct.
7 THE COURT: Well, then, that would have some
8 relevance, so --
9 MR. DANDAR: You know -- and even a
10 non-Catholic would know that the head of the
11 Catholic church --
12 THE COURT: Is the Pope. Well, I know that.
13 MR. WEINBERG: I didn't object to that
14 question. I objected when he started asking about
15 the Sea Org and how the Sea Org works.
16 MR. DANDAR: I want the court to note how many
17 times we get interrupted with these objections --
18 THE COURT: Yeah.
19 MR. DANDAR: -- when we talk about --
20 THE COURT: I think --
21 MR. DANDAR: -- Scientology.
22 THE COURT: I think you ought to save a lot of
23 this for cross examination. I'm going to let it in.
24 This is not a hearing before a jury, this is a
25 hearing before me. And I can strike things. And we
59
1 just don't have to --
2 You know, it does seem to me, and I -- I will
3 tell you all, that you need to understand this, if
4 you ever get in front of a jury, it really does seem
5 as if there's just a huge amount of objection.
6 For anybody that's been a member of this church
7 to say anything like unto they know anything. It's
8 like -- it's like as if they left, they never were
9 there and they couldn't possibly know anything.
10 I think that's the -- you hear -- I mean, if --
11 this is never reflected in the record, but if you
12 could see you all like a jury would see you all, you
13 could see Mr. Shaw and how he does, and Mr. Moxon in
14 particular, how offended he gets -- I mean, just
15 like when he asks the question, "Who's the head of
16 Scientology," I heard this huge gasp, like. And to
17 this man -- I mean, you know, you're right. It
18 wasn't an objection, but it was very obvious you
19 were offended or something that this man was asked.
20 I mean, I could tell you who the head of the
21 Catholic church is and I've never been a Catholic.
22 MR. WEINBERG: That wasn't --
23 THE COURT: I'm telling you, I heard it --
24 MR. WEINBERG: I --
25 THE COURT: -- and I looked out there. It was
60
1 like they're so offended that this man is pretending
2 to have any knowledge.
3 Well, he was a member, he says, of your
4 church -- not yours -- you understand, your
5 client --
6 MR. WEINBERG: 20 years.
7 THE COURT: -- for 20 years.
8 MR. WEINBERG: And --
9 THE COURT: He ought to know something.
10 MR. WEINBERG: He should. And that's not my
11 objection.
12 I will try to, and I will -- I'll just -- if
13 there's something that I think is really --
14 THE COURT: Well, I'm going to take a little
15 break, and I want you to talk to your clients --
16 MR. WEINBERG: I will.
17 THE COURT: -- that are here. And that
18 includes co-counsel who is here. And I want you to
19 understand, this is me here. You know, if this man
20 missteps and if he misstates things, I'm going to
21 let you clear it up on cross examination.
22 I mean, to some extent, some of this is
23 relevant, is important for me to know. As I said,
24 this fellow says he was a member for 20 years. I --
25 I was a member of a church for some time and I know
61
1 a lot about it. I wouldn't want to testify as an
2 expert, but I could sure, after however many years
3 I've been gone -- over 40 years -- tell you some
4 stuff about that church I belonged to.
5 MR. WEINBERG: And --
6 THE COURT: I don't hear this man being hostile
7 or anything of the sort.
8 We just have got to move through this.
9 As I said, if he's lying or if he doesn't have
10 any basis, bring it out on cross examination.
11 MR. WEINBERG: We will
12 THE COURT: So chat with these folks and tell
13 them --
14 MR. WEINBERG: Well --
15 THE COURT: -- calm down, here.
16 MR. WEINBERG: I --
17 THE COURT: And Mr. Fugate, what is it?
18 MR. FUGATE: Well, I'm going to -- in fairness
19 to Mr. Howie -- I'm going to ask to excuse myself
20 today. And I asked Mr. Howie if we could address
21 the court on his notes and on Mr. Rosen's notes on
22 Monday morning. And we wanted to stay around and
23 make sure that was okay with the court.
24 THE COURT: Well, thank you, Mr. Howie. Is
25 that because I was the last one to get your pleading
62
1 yesterday, that you're feeling bad?
2 MR. HOWIE: That's part of the reason, your
3 Honor. I assure the court you'll be the first to
4 get them, from --
5 THE COURT: All right.
6 MR. FUGATE: Is that all right with the court?
7 THE COURT: That's fair enough.
8 MR. DANDAR: Let Mr. Howie know it was the
9 plaintiff's counsel who offered to give the court a
10 copy of the affidavit so Mr. Howie wouldn't have to
11 come here.
12 THE COURT: I didn't need him to come, but -- I
13 was really kind of joking.
14 As far as I'm concerned, you can be excused.
15 If you get this, though, before Monday, and if
16 everybody agrees and everybody talks to whomever
17 they need to talk to and you get it, would somebody
18 please fax it to Mr. Dandar so he has it, so there's
19 no delay?
20 MR. FUGATE: Judge, here's the situation.
21 They're -- I will have, probably, before Monday, the
22 conversation with Mr. Jonas and with Mr. Rosen.
23 And I just wanted to address two issues about
24 the notes to the court. I just am not going to make
25 it today. And I just asked him if he could turn
63
1 them in and talk -- and make those -- address the
2 court on those issues on Monday. That's all I'm
3 requesting.
4 THE COURT: That's fine.
5 MR. FUGATE: And also, here's the transcript
6 from yesterday morning.
7 THE COURT: Okay.
8 MR. FUGATE: I have put yesterday afternoon in
9 there, but I'll have somebody else give it to you.
10 THE COURT: See you. Hope you feel better.
11 MR. FUGATE: Thank you.
12 MR. HOWIE: Your Honor, so the record is clear,
13 I have communicated with Mr. Jonas and resolved our
14 position on the last page. However, Mr. Fugate's
15 raising a new issue concerning turning over all
16 notes of the meeting that I think pertain to these
17 notes, and I think it's best that we turn them all
18 over --
19 THE COURT: You mean to tell me you're ready to
20 turn them over and Mr. Fugate has some objection?
21 MR. HOWIE: No. There's -- there's another
22 issue that Mr. Fugate is -- is raising here,
23 concerning turning over --
24 THE COURT: What is it?
25 MR. HOWIE: -- all the notes.
64
1 THE COURT: What's the issue?
2 MR. FUGATE: Judge, the issue --
3 Here's what I would like to do. I want to get
4 Mr. Rosen's notes. And I want to have those notes,
5 provide the notes to you. There's -- there's --
6 THE COURT: I don't understand this. This is
7 Mr. Minton's counsel. Mr. Minton's counsel has been
8 contacted by the current counsel and they have no
9 objection. Why in the world would the church have
10 any authority to step in and make any statement?
11 MR. FUGATE: I don't have any authority --
12 THE COURT: Well, then good. Then you don't
13 need to be here and we can deal with this today.
14 MR. HOWIE: Well, your Honor, it's just that I
15 have to revise my notice of filing and so on. And I
16 understand there are issues concerning the
17 confidentiality agreement that Mr. Fugate wishes to
18 address on Monday, which may affect --
19 THE COURT: Oh.
20 MR. HOWIE: -- the issue of the notes.
21 MR. FUGATE: That's all, Judge. There's no
22 hide and seek. I don't have any authority over
23 that. It's an issue that I want to raise with the
24 court that's been raised with me through counsel.
25 THE COURT: Who? Which counsel?
65
1 MR. FUGATE: Mr. Rosen.
2 THE COURT: Oh.
3 MR. FUGATE: And that's all, Judge. And I --
4 you know --
5 THE COURT: On these notes? On Mr. Minton's
6 counsel's notes?
7 MR. FUGATE: On our -- when I say our,
8 Mr. Rosen's notes.
9 And I think it reflects on what I understand
10 are in these notes. All I just want to do is just
11 bring it to the court's attention and let you look
12 at those sets and that's it.
13 THE COURT: Okay.
14 MR. HOWIE: That's correct, your Honor.
15 Because much of what Mr. Jonas's notes have include
16 comments by Mr. Rosen.
17 THE COURT: I -- oh, I see. All right.
18 MR. FUGATE: No -- no hide and seek. Nothing
19 nefarious. I just want to raise an issue with your
20 Honor and let you look at them and then you decide
21 whatever you want to do.
22 THE COURT: We'll take that up Monday. And you
23 may be excused.
24 MR. HOWIE: We'll be here 9:00 Monday.
25 THE COURT: All right. We are in court on
66
1 Monday, aren't we?
2 MR. DANDAR: Yes, we are.
3 THE COURT: Mr. Alexander, we're going to take
4 a little break here. I know you just got started.
5 I want them to have an opportunity to discuss
6 with Mr. Moxon and Mr. Shaw what I just told you,
7 Counsel.
8 And it -- it doesn't serve them well, honestly.
9 And I'm going to ask you, while you're on the
10 witness stand until we finish your testimony,
11 technically, you're not supposed to have any
12 communication with even lawyers about what -- what's
13 going on here.
14 THE WITNESS: Okay.
15 THE COURT: Doesn't mean you can't talk about
16 other things, but you can't really talk about
17 anything involving your testimony, even by the
18 lawyer who put you on the stand, as long as you're
19 testifying.
20 THE WITNESS: Okay. I understand.
21 THE COURT: Once you're not testifying, you are
22 free to speak with your lawyer or the lawyer -- he
23 can talk to you about matters. But not while you're
24 on the witness stand.
25 THE WITNESS: All right. Thanks.
67
1 THE COURT: We'll be in recess for 15 minutes.
2 (A recess was taken at 10:17 a.m.)
3 THE COURT: Okay. You said you had some
4 thoughts.
5 MR. WEINBERG: Well, I was reflecting on what
6 you were saying, and -- and it -- it -- I mean,
7 you're right. The evidentiary hearing in this case
8 should be limited to the terminating sanctions and
9 disqualification, the misconduct.
10 As far as the summary judgment is concerned, it
11 should be done like every other summary judgment.
12 Which is, we filed our motion, plaintiff responds
13 with affidavits or testimony.
14 We're in a unique position now because
15 basically all of the evidence-gathering, the
16 discovery, is over with, so it's either there or
17 it's not.
18 And so it seems to me that -- that what we
19 should do is finish the terminating sanctions part
20 of this evidentiary hearing, which is really all the
21 evidentiary hearing is about -- that is, the part of
22 the hearing that has to do with Mr. Dandar's alleged
23 misconduct; the -- you know, the false pleadings,
24 the -- the false testimony, the sham pleading part,
25 we've already covered with Mr. Dandar; whether or
68
1 not, at the time that he filed this pleading, he had
2 a good faith basis -- we don't think he did, but
3 whether he had a good faith basis or not to make
4 those allegations.
5 We finish that part of the hearing. Then we'll
6 move on, and I'll file the motion to stay the
7 hearing at that point to give him an opportunity,
8 like any lawyer has, to respond to the summary
9 judgment motion. And he can respond to the summary
10 judgment motion, if he has the evidence -- if he --
11 if he brings new affidavits which -- which need to
12 be pursued with discovery depositions, and we can do
13 those depositions outside your presence.
14 But this is unique. There shouldn't be any. I
15 mean, whatever is the evidence should be there,
16 because technically all the evidence is supposed to
17 have been produced at this point because we're
18 technically at a point where we were supposed to be
19 on trial. And -- and so that -- and -- and
20 whenever, you know, whatever --
21 And then at the end of that process, we'll --
22 we'll -- you can -- you know, you can decide either
23 or both of the summary judgment and the terminating
24 sanctions. I mean, I think that's what we had in
25 mind when we filed the motion in the first place.
69
1 THE COURT: Well, as I said, I was thinking
2 about it last night, and I got to thinking -- and I
3 started really thinking about how many days would
4 Mr. Prince take, is really what I started thinking.
5 MR. WEINBERG: That's what I got -- the
6 worst --
7 THE COURT: And I thought, "Oh, boy, I'm going
8 to limit these people to two days apiece," because I
9 could see this thing going on for two weeks. And
10 I'm thinking, "Why am I having to hear it?"
11 Now, as far as Mr. Prince's testimony, as to
12 whatever he has to say about what Mr. Minton said,
13 that's all terminating sanctions.
14 MR. WEINBERG: Right.
15 THE COURT: As far as what he might have to say
16 about -- I don't know whatever's related to the
17 motion -- but as far as what -- he's filed an
18 affidavit.
19 MR. WEINBERG: He did. And we deposed him.
20 THE COURT: And you deposed him.
21 MR. WEINBERG: Yes.
22 THE COURT: And I presume -- and I've read your
23 summary judgment. And I don't know that I've spent
24 a great deal of time with it, but I assume part of
25 those attachments would be maybe some of his -- I
70
1 mean, filed -- I don't know what is in there.
2 MR. WEINBERG: We would make the depositions
3 available, but you remember that percipient
4 knowledge thing --
5 THE COURT: Right.
6 MR. WEINBERG: The percipient knowledge came
7 essentially from the deposition where he said,
8 basically, he had no percipient knowledge or actual
9 knowledge or whatever knowledge we're talking
10 about --
11 THE COURT: Percipient.
12 MR. WEINBERG: -- about these allegations, you
13 know, paragraph 30, for, you know, what David
14 Miscavige did, what anybody did, as it related to
15 Lisa McPherson. So that all came out of his
16 deposition. We took the deposition after he filed
17 the affidavit.
18 So you know, I don't think the affidavit is --
19 is a basis for the allegation.
20 THE COURT: I --
21 MR. WEINBERG: And we certainly underscored
22 that in his deposition. I don't -- I don't care to
23 hear from him again on any of that stuff.
24 But you know, there may be things that he has
25 to say -- I'm sure there are -- as it relates to
71
1 Mr. Minton and Mr. Dandar and the terminating
2 sanctions part.
3 THE COURT: Right. Well, I agree.
4 And I think what happened, and I think what got
5 us -- and I will take some responsibility for
6 this -- is that at some point in time, I remember --
7 and I just -- my mind has gone blank. And this
8 happened several days in a row -- Mr. -- that lawyer
9 that's such a good lawyer from New York that does
10 such a lot of your legal argument.
11 MR. WEINBERG: Mr. Lieberman.
12 THE COURT: Mr. Lieberman at some point in time
13 said -- I think -- God knows what the record will
14 reflect in this case, but I think Mr. Lieberman said
15 in this case that not only are you challenging the
16 false filings, which would have something to do --
17 false filings, presumably with terminating sanctions
18 and maybe with requests for attorneys' fees and that
19 kind of a sanction --
20 MR. WEINBERG: Right.
21 THE COURT: -- but also the -- the -- no basis
22 in fact -- or there was no basis in fact for the
23 filing. Somehow that -- I got that tied up into
24 this motion.
25 And I said to Mr. Dandar at that time, "Well,
72
1 now you're on notice that that's at issue here too."
2 And -- and so I understand what he's thinking, I put
3 this at issue. Then I got to thinking and said,
4 "Well, you better file a summary judgment," which
5 you've done. We've tied him up here day in and day
6 out and he may not have gotten his response to that
7 ready. And I told him I needed it by the end of the
8 hearing, which seemed to be quite a ways off.
9 MR. WEINBERG: Right.
10 THE COURT: But I must admit, I thought if I'm
11 going to have to listen to everything, Mr. Prince
12 would explain, if he were permitted to testify at a
13 trial, if there's a trial, I'm thinking, "I could be
14 here for two weeks." And I'm thinking, "Why do I
15 have to hear that?"
16 MR. WEINBERG: You don't. That's not supposed
17 to happen.
18 THE COURT: Somehow we all got -- whether it's
19 my fault, whether it's something I misunderstood or
20 whatever, I -- I think that -- that perhaps we've
21 expanded this hearing beyond where it needs to be
22 expanded.
23 MR. WEINBERG: I agree.
24 THE COURT: And so what do you think,
25 Mr. Dandar?
73
1 MR. DANDAR: I don't want to argue with you.
2 But you can't -- I mean, I looked at their motion
3 for terminating sanctions. What you just said is
4 all true. You told me I better be ready --
5 THE COURT: I know I did.
6 MR. DANDAR: -- and I better present my
7 evidence.
8 THE COURT: Right.
9 MR. DANDAR: And I'm prepared to do that
10 next -- this coming week, on --
11 You know, the sham pleading terminating
12 sanction -- that theory that they proposed to you,
13 is not -- in my humble opinion, not supported by any
14 case law. They're citing 57.105. That's a sanction
15 of attorney fees, if you allege something and you
16 have no factual basis to allege it. It doesn't say
17 the attorney gets disqualified and the case gets
18 dismissed. It says you can't allege -- the entire
19 complaint has to be --
20 THE COURT: Now, it sounds to me like you want
21 to talk about that motion. We don't need to talk
22 about that --
23 MR. DANDAR: All right. Sorry, your Honor.
24 THE COURT: -- right now.
25 MR. DANDAR: All right.
74
1 THE COURT: Save that argument.
2 MR. DANDAR: We need --
3 THE COURT: Save that thought, Mr. Dandar.
4 MR. DANDAR: We need an evidentiary hearing
5 because they allege: Sham pleading. Dismiss the
6 entire case. So I need to present my evidence
7 through testimony. You have to evaluate the
8 credibility of the witness on whether or not
9 Scientology has any type of policy to let someone
10 die because of public relation problems. That's
11 what we allege in paragraph 34. And I said it's
12 based upon my pathologists. And you've already read
13 their testimony.
14 THE COURT: I have. I need to go back and read
15 it --
16 MR. DANDAR: I'm going --
17 THE COURT: You're going to --
18 MR. DANDAR: I'm going to --
19 THE COURT: Right.
20 Mind you, I just went back and looked for what
21 I could find hurriedly --
22 MR. DANDAR: Right.
23 THE COURT: -- one day to see what they said.
24 I'm sure I didn't read it all, that -- their
25 depositions, too, were hundreds and hundreds and
75
1 hundreds and hundreds of pages.
2 MR. DANDAR: And I have been consistently,
3 constantly working on the reply memorandum at night,
4 on weekends --
5 THE COURT: The reply memorandum to the
6 terminating sanctions?
7 MR. DANDAR: Both. The disqualification motion
8 and terminating sanctions.
9 THE COURT: Yeah. Because I don't have
10 anything from you on that.
11 MR. DANDAR: No. I'm not --
12 THE COURT: You're --
13 MR. DANDAR: I mean, I'm getting witnesses
14 ready, myself ready, testifying, and -- but I'm
15 doing it at night, weekends, whenever I can. I
16 haven't been to my office. Somewhere there's an
17 office --
18 THE COURT: So you're saying that I need to
19 hear this.
20 MR. DANDAR: You need to hear this.
21 THE COURT: Okay.
22 MR. DANDAR: Because these are -- like you told
23 me, these are very serious allegations.
24 THE COURT: Yes, they are.
25 MR. DANDAR: And Mr. Alexander is going to
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1 testify to the issues raised by Mr. Minton and
2 Ms. Brooks in their testimony and affidavits.
3 THE COURT: All right. Well, I'm going to --
4 like I said, at least for today, I want to hear
5 everything you want to present. And I'm going to
6 sort of sit down and see where I think we might be.
7 And you know, I may change a little of the course of
8 where we are come Monday. May not.
9 But go on ahead with Mr. Alexander.
10 MR. WEINBERG: May I say one more thing --
11 THE COURT: Yes.
12 MR. WEINBERG: -- in response to what Ken just
13 said?
14 He said that he needed the opportunity to have
15 an evidentiary hearing in order to establish, for
16 example, whether Scientology has a policy to let
17 someone die.
18 And see, that's not what this hearing is about.
19 If -- if he had evidence of that, it should have
20 been presented way long prior to this hearing and in
21 response to a summary judgment motion. You don't
22 have an evidentiary motion. You -- you present
23 whatever your evidence is.
24 THE COURT: Well, but part of it is -- I think
25 what he's saying is -- and I'll have to go back -- I
77
1 have to go back and read this again. And I'm going
2 to take it home this weekend, although I don't want
3 to spend all weekend --
4 MR. WEINBERG: And our motion, the motion for
5 summary judgment too.
6 THE COURT: Yes.
7 And I want to see --
8 But I think that was part of the allegation.
9 In other words, that the -- the pleading itself, the
10 complaint, was fraudulent, a sham, no basis -- and
11 that was part of the terminating sanctions --
12 MR. WEINBERG: But see, what --
13 THE COURT: -- and disqualification of
14 Mr. Dandar.
15 MR. WEINBERG: That's true.
16 But see, it is not -- but -- but you don't then
17 come in, after the pleading is filed, and present
18 new evidence. I mean, that's -- that's --
19 THE COURT: I don't know if it is or not. And
20 that's why I have to hear it.
21 And I'll tell you why I say that. If he was
22 listed as a witness ---
23 MR. WEINBERG: He being --
24 THE COURT: He being, for example, this
25 gentleman --
78
1 MR. WEINBERG: Okay.
2 THE COURT: -- Mr. Alexander. And if
3 Mr. Alexander were deposed, and Mr. Alexander
4 didn't -- wasn't asked certain questions --
5 Now, I grant you, that with all of the
6 discovery that was taken in this case, I'm certain
7 that there were interrogatories, and I'm sure there
8 were requests for admission and all that sort of
9 stuff. I don't know what those are, so I'm not in
10 any position to evaluate whether something's new or
11 isn't new. That would have to be addressed.
12 MR. WEINBERG: Right.
13 THE COURT: And if it's -- if it's something
14 that's new, was it something that was just learned;
15 was it something that --
16 MR. WEINBERG: I mean, as far as terminating