KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
TAMPA AIRPORT MARRIOTT HOTEL (813) 224-9500
ST. PETERSBURG - CLEARWATER (727) 821-3320
IN THE CIRCUIT COURT FOR PINELLAS COUNTY, FLORIDA
CASE NO. 00-5682-CI-11
DELL LIEBREICH, as Personal
Representative of the ESTATE OF
LISA McPHERSON,
Plaintiff,
vs. VOLUME 2
TESTIMONY OF
CHURCH OF SCIENTOLOGY FLAG PETER ALEXANDER
SERVICE ORGANIZATION, JANIS
JOHNSON, ALAIN KARTUZINSKI
and DAVID HOUGHTON, D.D.S.,
Defendants.
_______________________________________/
PROCEEDINGS: Defendants' Omnibus Motion for
Terminating Sanctions and Other Relief
DATE: June 7, 2002. Afternoon Session
PLACE: Courtroom B, Judicial Building
St. Petersburg, Florida
BEFORE: Honorable Susan F. Schaeffer
Circuit Judge
REPORTED BY: Debra S. Turner
Deputy Official Court Reporter
Sixth Judicial Circuit of Florida
_________________________________________________
Page 142
APPEARANCES:
MR. KENNAN G. DANDAR
DANDAR & DANDAR
5340 West Kennedy Blvd., Suite 201
Tampa, FL 33602
Attorney for Plaintiff
MR. LUKE CHARLES LIROT
LUKE CHARLES LIROT, PA
112 N East Street, Street, Suite B
Tampa, FL 33602-4108
Attorney for Plaintiff
MR. KENDRICK MOXON
MOXON & KOBRIN
1100 Cleveland Street, Suite 900
Clearwater, FL 33755
Attorney for Church of Scientology Flag Service Organization
MR. MORRIS WEINBERG, JR.
ZUCKERMAN, SPAEDER
101 E. Kennedy Blvd, Suite 1200
Tampa, FL 33602-5147
Attorneys for Church of Scientology Flag Service
Organization
Page 143
1 (The afternoon session began at 1:20 p.m.)
2 THE COURT: Okay. Mr. Dandar, you may
3 continue.
4 MR. DANDAR: Thank you.
5 DIRECT EXAMINATION OF
6 PETER ALEXANDER (RESUMED)
7 BY MR. DANDAR:
8 Q Mr. Alexander, so you celebrated the closing of
9 the purchase of the building on Fort Harrison that became
10 the offices of the Lisa McPherson Trust?
11 A Right, that's right, the building we own.
12 Q Okay. And at that time were you a board member
13 of the Lisa McPherson Trust?
14 A I -- you know, it hadn't really opened to the
15 public, but it was intended that we would be. I don't
16 know -- at some point, Bob published it on the Internet.
17 But, yes, I think we were talking like we were.
18 Q Did you -- not you, I'm sorry. Did the Lisa
19 McPherson Trust in November, December of '99 have an
20 office?
21 A No.
22 Q And when did it have its first office?
23 A It was Jan- -- well, wait a second. I think that
24 they did construction, but what I remember is moving in
25 there or helping them in November, December, and they moved
Page 144
1 in and set up shop in January, I believe.
2 Q Of 2000?
3 A Yes, I believe it was January of 2000.
4 Q Okay. Did you contribute or participate in the
5 drafting of any of the pamphlets for the Lisa McPherson
6 Trust?
7 A Yes. We had a meeting after the opening of the
8 trust. It was in Stacy's office, Stacy Brooks. And we
9 talked about what the purposes ought to be, what the goals
10 ought to be, of the Lisa McPherson Trust. And we came up
11 with ten points, starting with it was to expose the abusive
12 and deceptive practices of Scientology.
13 Q And who came up with that statement?
14 A That was Bob.
15 Q Bob Minton?
16 A Bob Minton, yes.
17 Q Okay. Did Stacy Brooks contribute to any of the
18 purposes or goals?
19 A Just when -- you know, actually, just when I
20 brought up the lawsuit. I said, "Well, what about
21 supporting litigation?"
22 She said, "No, no. That has to be kept separate.
23 No, we can't have anything to do" -- you know, mix between
24 the Lisa Trust, as it was now called, and the lawsuit --
25 Q Okay.
Page 145
1 A -- business.
2 Q You were there. Was Patricia there?
3 A Yes. It was myself, Patricia Greenway, Stacy
4 Brooks, Jesse Prince, Bob Minton, David Cecere, and Mark
5 Bunker.
6 Q Was I there?
7 A No.
8 Q Was I contacted in any way to contribute to the
9 purposes of the Lisa McPherson Trust?
10 A No. You had nothing to do with it.
11 Q What about Dell Liebreich?
12 A No. I think -- the only thing that I remember of
13 as far as Dell Liebreich is that, when we had the little
14 opening party, Bob called her on the phone in our presence.
15 But it was just a social call just to let her know that the
16 office was opened.
17 Q Okay. In that call, did he ask Dell Liebreich to
18 serve on the board of directors?
19 A I don't remember if it was then or on another
20 occasion, but she did serve on the board.
21 Q And did Dell Liebreich, to your knowledge,
22 participate in directing, controlling, contributing to the
23 Lisa McPherson Trust?
24 A No, no, no. No one on the board that I knew
25 actually did anything like that.
Page 146
1 Q Did I have any direct, indirect control,
2 contribution, input in the activities or purposes of the
3 Lisa McPherson Trust?
4 A Not that I ever saw, no.
5 Q How long were you involved with the Lisa
6 McPherson Trust?
7 A From the inception, which, you know, we started
8 talking about it -- it didn't have that name at first, but
9 we started talking about it back in August. And then it
10 sort of coalesced into a group, and we opened the office in
11 January of 2000 and -- thereabouts, and then all the way
12 through December of 2000. And then we were kicked off the
13 board.
14 Q So about 14 months?
15 A Yes. It was only really opened to the public for
16 like about a year when we were there.
17 Q Okay. And during the year that you were a member
18 of the board of directors of the Lisa McPherson Trust, what
19 involvement, if any, did I have?
20 A None that I saw.
21 Q Did you know that I incorporated the corporation
22 known as the Lisa McPherson Trust?
23 A I have some vague memory of it, but, you know,
24 that's just a standard thing you get a lawyer to do. I
25 didn't see you around there much.
Page 147
1 Q Did the purpose of the Lisa McPherson Trust ever
2 change?
3 A No.
4 Q Did the Lisa McPherson Trust engage in any type
5 of activity to support the Lisa McPherson wrongful death
6 case?
7 A Not that I know of. It was supposed to be
8 separate.
9 Q Did you ever hear Bob Minton talk about his --
10 the money that he gave me in reference to the wrongful
11 death case?
12 A Yes, I heard him talk about that on a couple of
13 occasions.
14 Q Which is the first time you can recall?
15 A The first time that I can recall was about -- it
16 might have been like the first week of May of 2000. And I
17 was talking to him on the phone, and he -- he brought it
18 up.
19 And he said: "You know, I'm going to send Ken
20 one more check, but that's the last check he's going to get
21 because I don't like the way he's handling the lawsuit.
22 And I don't have anything to say about it, and I'm paying
23 for it."
24 So it sounded like he changed his mind from the
25 first time I talked to him about it.
Page 148
1 Q Did he use any particular language when he talked
2 about this check?
3 A Yes, he did say something funny. I always
4 remember this. He said, "I'm going to cause a check to be
5 sent."
6 I thought: "What are you talking about? Why
7 didn't he just say he's going to send a check?"
8 Q So instead of saying, "I'm going to send a
9 check," he said, "I'm going to cause a check --"
10 A "Going to cause a check." I remember that's what
11 stood out in the conversation. That's why I remember it.
12 You know, when you hear things that are odd like that, you
13 think, "What's up with that?"
14 Q This is the first week of May 2000?
15 A Yes.
16 Q Did you ask him what he meant by that strange
17 statement?
18 A No. You know, first of all, my business with him
19 had to do with the film. And I like to stick to business,
20 and so I didn't get into it.
21 Q All right. So this was the second time, at
22 least, you heard him say, "I don't like the way he's
23 running the case"?
24 A No. That was the first time I heard him say
25 that.
Page 149
1 Q Oh.
2 A It was the second time that we talked about the
3 fact that he was funding the case, because the first time
4 was back in November of '99, at that meeting, dinner.
5 Q But is it in May of 2000 when he told you, "I
6 don't get to know what's going on"?
7 A Yes, that's right.
8 Q Was that the first time he said that?
9 A No. That was the second time he said that.
10 Q I'm sorry, I got confused myself.
11 A Okay.
12 Q All right. Let's talk about the movie, since you
13 just mentioned it.
14 A Okay.
15 Q The movie is called The Profit, right?
16 A Right.
17 Q Is that the first movie that you've ever been
18 involved with?
19 A No. You know, I started out in college. And I
20 think I kind of went through my background. And I wrote a
21 film script. And when I was at Universal, my title was
22 executive producer. I would step in and have to do parts
23 of the film. So between -- it was the first full-length
24 feature film I had directed, though.
25 Q Okay.
Page 150
1 A But I had various experiences as producer or
2 writer.
3 Q You've written scripts before this one?
4 A Yes, yes.
5 Q Who wrote the script to the movie The Profit?
6 A I did.
7 Q Tell us how that came about.
8 A Well, actually, I was talking to my dad on my
9 birthday, November the 6th, 1999. And he was asking me,
10 well, what I wanted to do next. And I was kind of mumbling
11 about this, that, and the other thing.
12 My dad said: "Why don't you write something
13 about cults? Why don't you make a film?"
14 My dad had been an actor. He was an actor in
15 films when he was a kid, so he had some background in
16 Hollywood too.
17 So he said: "Yes, you know, you ought to try a
18 film, try to write -- you know, you've done that. Write a
19 script, see if you can do something with that."
20 I said, "You know, Dad, that's a heck of an
21 idea."
22 So I started researching what I was going to
23 write about. And I researched a number of cults, the
24 Moonies, the Scientologists, Allister Crawley (phonetic)
25 and the OTO. And interestingly, I did extensive research
Page 151
1 on this guy nobody had ever heard of, Osama bin Laden,
2 because I was fascinated with these Muslim/Islamic
3 fundamental cults.
4 But the main thing that I found was that -- when
5 I was going through there, I found one book. It wasn't
6 actually a book. It was only a chapter of a book on the
7 Internet, and that was really the basis of the through-put
8 of the film. And it was Chapter 22 of a book which is
9 called Thought Reform and the Psychology of Totalism, a
10 study of brainwashing in Communist China, by Professor
11 Robert J. Lifton, L-i-f-t-o-n.
12 And the reason that was such a striking book to
13 me was the thing I knew most about was Scientology, and
14 when I read Professor Lifton's analysis of what the
15 Communist Chinese and other totalist organizations did to
16 people -- and this was basically a study of people who had
17 been brainwashed by the Communist Chinese in the Great
18 Cultural Revolution, where they made them, you know,
19 basically into robots.
20 And the points that Professor Lifton raised, it
21 was like -- you know, you just go down those points, it was
22 like reading an L. Ron Hubbard policy manual. I had
23 never -- I had never -- every single thing that I read in
24 there, and particularly his main description, which was
25 Chapter 22, of what constituted a cult was in Scientology.
Page 152
1 I'd go, "Whoa, this is incredible."
2 So I used that. And then I used extensive
3 research. And I wrote the script; started in November.
4 And I -- I had a draft complete by middle of January 2000.
5 Q How did Mr. Minton get involved in this?
6 A Well, he was the second person I brought the
7 script to. And I was looking for an investor, so I met
8 with him. I called him up and said, "Hey, I've got
9 something for you."
10 So he was a friend of mine, so I took it over
11 there to meet him in Clearwater at the Bombay Bicycle Club.
12 We had lunch there. And I had the script and I -- you
13 know, I had story boards, which are illustrations of what
14 various scenes would look like, and I had the budget.
15 And I just went through it. He said, "This
16 sounds great, this sounds great."
17 After I went through the script, Patricia
18 Greenway joined us. I think she had been shopping or
19 something, if I remember. But she wasn't there at first.
20 And then she joined us, and then she kind of cross-examined
21 Bob and asked him, "Sure you want to do this, now?" you
22 know.
23 And he said, "No, I want to do it, and I want to
24 do the whole thing."
25 And that surprised me, because I remember
Page 153
1 thinking, "Well, I'll get Bob to put up part of the money,
2 and I'll get somebody else to put up the other part of the
3 money." But he wanted to do the whole thing. So I said:
4 "Okay. Deal. Let's go."
5 Q Patricia tried to actually talk him out of it?
6 A Yes, tried to talk him out of it. That's
7 Patricia.
8 Q Bob was your second choice?
9 A Oh, yes.
10 Q So there was somebody else you went to --
11 A Yes.
12 Q -- to see if they would invest?
13 A Yes. And they thought it was too controversial.
14 Q Did that person have anything to do with
15 Scientology?
16 A No.
17 Q Did that person have anything to do with the Lisa
18 McPherson Trust wrongful death case?
19 A No. They were a group of executives who I know
20 from show business.
21 Q Okay.
22 A They invest separately.
23 Q Pardon me?
24 A They invest separately, on the side, from their
25 main jobs.
Page 154
1 Q Okay. So when Bob Minton said, "I'm going to --
2 I'm going to finance the whole movie --"
3 A Yes.
4 Q -- he already knew from you right then and there
5 how much that was estimated to be?
6 A Right. I estimated it. I am competent to do
7 that.
8 Q Okay. You've done that before?
9 A Yes, many times.
10 Q All right. And did that include money for you?
11 A Yes. There was money for the script, and then,
12 you know, I was paid a salary as a producer.
13 Q And was the money for the script the going rate
14 in the industry?
15 A No. I -- the money for the script was $50,000.
16 The Writers Guild minimum was at that time I think $63,000.
17 Q Okay. And the money that you had in the budget
18 to charge for your role as the producer or director?
19 A Was my same salary I was bringing home at the
20 Totally Fun Company previously.
21 Q And you did that because you were going to have
22 to devote all your time to the movie when it started?
23 A Right. Once that movie began, it was just
24 all-consuming, all-consuming.
25 Q Now, when did you and Mr. Minton enter into a
Page 155
1 formal agreement?
2 A That was the 7th of February. I've had an
3 opportunity to look at that contract several times, so I
4 remember that date, 7th of February, 2000.
5 Q And whose idea was it to do a formal written
6 agreement?
7 A It was mine.
8 Q Why is that?
9 A Well, because you can't do a deal without a
10 contract.
11 Q And did Mr. Minton get a lawyer to look at the
12 contract?
13 A I don't know what he did on his end. I had my
14 Hollywood attorney draft it up and send it to him. He
15 didn't move on it. And I called him back, and he said it
16 was too complicated and too long. So we had the contract
17 cut down.
18 Q Did that sound like to you that he had retained a
19 lawyer to look at a contract?
20 A It didn't sound like it. He didn't mention that
21 he had had a lawyer review it. He just said it was too
22 long and too complicated.
23 Q So you reduced it?
24 A Yes. It was 47 pages long, and I think it ended
25 up being 27 pages. We chopped out 20 pages.
Page 156
1 Q Okay. And do you know if he read the short
2 version?
3 A I don't know. He signed it.
4 Q Okay.
5 A I don't know if he read it.
6 Q And you signed it?
7 A Yes.
8 Q All right. Now --
9 A And I can't say that I read it that closely.
10 Q Did -- are you the sole writer of the script?
11 A Yes.
12 Q Was there any talk from Mr. Minton that he wanted
13 to use the script, this movie, to attack Scientology?
14 A No.
15 Q Was there any talk that he wanted to use this
16 movie to influence the jury pool in the wrongful death case
17 of Lisa McPherson?
18 A That's ridiculous. Well -- and I'll tell you
19 why. You know, in January of 2000 -- let me compose myself
20 here.
21 The trial, we all knew, was scheduled to be held
22 in Hillsborough county in June of 2000. And the trial was
23 going to start before a jury in June of 2000. Even the
24 optimistic contract schedule didn't call for the film to be
25 done until the 30th of October of 2000. So in any event,
Page 157
1 the film would have been done after, you know, the trial
2 had been held.
3 And secondly, no one -- no one -- is going to
4 make a film to influence some lawsuit in some county in one
5 state. You don't -- you just don't do that. That's like
6 insane.
7 Q How much did that film cost?
8 A It was 2 million -- 2.4 million, yes.
9 Q When did the film start production?
10 A Actually, it started shooting on the 7th of
11 August.
12 Q Okay. Do you recall your deposition being taken
13 in this matter, the Lisa McPherson wrongful death case, in
14 April of 2000?
15 A Yes, I do.
16 Q Like two months before trial?
17 A Yes. Yes, it was taken over in Tampa, in one of
18 the office buildings there.
19 Q In the year 2000, were you followed by anyone
20 from the Church of Scientology?
21 A Yes. I learned this from the process server who
22 brought me the summons to that deposition. And I said --
23 he said, "I've been -- I've been following you for some
24 time."
25 MR. WEINBERG: Objection, your Honor. This
Page 158
1 is hearsay.
2 THE COURT: Sustained.
3 BY MR. DANDAR:
4 Q Okay. As a result of that conversation --
5 A Yes.
6 Q -- what impression were you left with?
7 A Okay. I learned that there was a guy in a
8 white --
9 MR. WEINBERG: Object --
10 THE COURT: Is this something you saw?
11 THE WITNESS: Yes, something I saw, ma'am,
12 yes.
13 MR. WEINBERG: What he saw. But he said
14 what was his impression based on a conversation.
15 THE COURT: True. He can talk about what he
16 saw.
17 A I saw a guy in a white Chevrolet Astro van, who
18 looked kind of like Kenny Rogers -- we called him Kenny
19 Rogers -- that had been identified with his tag number.
20 And so I knew who it was. Once I saw this guy, I saw that
21 he was following me everywhere.
22 There was another guy who -- you know, we have
23 nicknames for these guys because we don't know what their
24 real names are. I called him Slim Pickens because he
25 looked like that movie character. And he had a green Dodge
Page 159
1 compact and -- two of them.
2 And then there was a third person that would move
3 in and out. But those were the two steady guys. And they
4 tailed me, oh, gosh, for a month or two beyond that point.
5 BY MR. DANDAR:
6 Q After your deposition?
7 A Yes.
8 Q And was there any interference with your
9 production of the movie The Profit?
10 A Oh, yes. Oh, yes. The first time was we were
11 shooting at a place in Tampa, which is a theater, and it's
12 called the Friday Morning Musicale Club. And we were
13 shooting a scene. And two Scientologists showed up, and
14 they were passing out fliers. And the fliers indicated
15 that the crew should quit the film because Patricia
16 Greenway and I, it was intimated in this flier, were
17 seasoned KKK members and that this was hateful.
18 And so they tried to pass this out to the various
19 crew members on the film, of which there were quite a few,
20 and talked to everybody that they could, talked to all the
21 extras and talked to all the people and tried to get them
22 to quit. That was the first occasion.
23 Q Okay. I'm going to hand up in a lump sum here
24 all of these and have you identify them as quickly as we
25 can.
Page 160
1 A Okay.
2 MR. DANDAR: I'm handing counsel 81 to 87,
3 Plaintiff's exhibits. I'm going to hand to the
4 witness the same stack.
5 THE WITNESS: Okay.
6 BY MR. DANDAR:
7 Q Let's start at -- all right. Why don't you count
8 that up and see. Look at the bottom and announce what
9 exhibit --
10 A Okay.
11 Q -- you have in your hand.
12 A This is Exhibit 83. "I've never been to Nigeria.
13 It was just a business deal, Robert Minton."
14 Blood money is financing his propaganda, it says
15 at the bottom.
16 Q These were handed out while you were trying to
17 shoot a movie?
18 A Yes, yes. That was Exhibit 83. This is Exhibit
19 82, "Children in Nigeria may be dead because of the dirty
20 money used to finance this propaganda." That's Exhibit 82,
21 that one.
22 MR. DANDAR: Wait a minute. Hold on. I've
23 got to get the Judge copies here.
24 THE WITNESS: Okay, cool.
25 MR. DANDAR: Judge, I'm handing you 80, 81,
Page 161
1 and 83. And I'm going to try to find the others here.
2 I apologize if I'm not giving you -- I
3 already gave you that. There you go.
4 MR. WEINBERG: Are you offering those?
5 MR. DANDAR: Let me get the clerk -- I
6 thought they were already marked.
7 THE COURT: I think -- I think I'm missing
8 something.
9 MR. DANDAR: You may be. Which one?
10 MR. WEINBERG: How many are there?
11 THE COURT: I have 80, 81, 82, 83, and then
12 I go to 86.
13 MR. WEINBERG: All I got was 80, 81, 86, and
14 87.
15 MR. DANDAR: All right. Here's 87, Judge.
16 THE COURT: I have 87.
17 MR. DANDAR: I'm sorry.
18 THE COURT: I don't have 84 and 85, if there
19 is an 84 and 85.
20 MR. WEINBERG: And I don't have 82, if there
21 was an 82, which I think you're saying you have,
22 right, Judge?
23 THE COURT: Yes.
24 THE WITNESS: I have 80, 81, 82, 83, 86, 87.
25 THE COURT: I've got a couple blanks in
Page 162
1 here.
2 (It was agreed that this discussion
3 regarding exhibits would be off the record
4 and need not be transcribed.)
5 MR. DANDAR: I'm handing to the clerk 80,
6 81, 82, 83, 84, 86, and 87.
7 THE COURT: And, Madam Clerk, show 85
8 missing. Just show it no exhibit, I guess, so we
9 don't all start wondering one day where in the world
10 it is.
11 I don't know why we don't make 86 "85" and
12 87 "86." Or is that because you have other premarked
13 things?
14 MR. LIROT: No, Judge, that's not because of
15 that.
16 MR. WEINBERG: That would make sense, it
17 seems.
18 THE COURT: Well, why don't we do that?
19 MR. DANDAR: Okay. Because all the copies
20 are already marked.
21 MR. WEINBERG: That's okay.
22 THE COURT: We can just scratch them.
23 MR. DANDAR: Okay.
24 THE COURT: Madam Clerk, make what is 86
25 "85."
Page 163
1 THE CLERK: Okay.
2 THE COURT: And make what's 87 "86." And
3 then your next exhibit will be 87. Now we don't have
4 anything missing.
5 MR. DANDAR: All right.
6 BY MR. DANDAR:
7 Q So, Mr. Alexander, can you identify Exhibit 80?
8 A Yes. This was the first one that I saw, as a
9 matter of fact, on that first day of the Friday Morning
10 Musicale Club.
11 Q And who was distributing that?
12 A Two Scientologists, one named Richard -- I can't
13 remember his last name, kind of a big, heavy-set guy, and
14 one smaller gentleman. He looked either Latin or maybe
15 Filipino, who was there.
16 Q And who were they distributing this to?
17 A The cast, the crew, passersby.
18 Q And how do you know they were Scientologists?
19 A Richard identified himself as such.
20 Q Did he say what office he was from?
21 A He did not say, no.
22 Q Okay. And what about exhibits -- the rest of the
23 exhibits that are fliers, 82, 83, 84?
24 A Well, these all look like things -- yes, these
25 are all things that were passed out.
Page 164
1 Q And were they passed out the same day?
2 A No. Each day they would come back with a new
3 flier.
4 Q Okay. Did you change the numbers?
5 A It's now 85. I got it.
6 Q Go ahead and write that so I don't get confused
7 and you don't.
8 A Okay.
9 Q Look at 85.
10 A All right.
11 Q How did you get a copy of that?
12 A It came in the mail from our insurance carriers.
13 And they had received this anonymously with postage from,
14 as I recall, St. Petersburg. And it wasn't signed or
15 anything. And it was in reference to the film The Profit.
16 And it was an attempt to threaten or intimidate them so
17 that they would not get liability insurance for us.
18 Q And you needed that for your permit, correct?
19 A Right. Well, we needed basically what they call
20 errors and omissions or defamation insurance just to be
21 sure that, you know, the script didn't have anything
22 libelous in it or anything like that. You want to have an
23 insurance carrier verify that, you know, you've done the
24 right thing.
25 Q Were you able to get insurance?
Page 165
1 A Yes.
2 Q So they looked at the script?
3 A They looked at the script, and they found that
4 there was nothing defamatory about it.
5 Q What about 86? What's that?
6 A Okay.
7 THE COURT: Was this sent to the actual
8 person that you got insurance from or the person you
9 were trying to get insurance from?
10 THE WITNESS: That is just a broker,
11 Comegies (phonetic). They're the broker, and they go
12 out and place the insurance with different companies.
13 A Okay. This is 86, what is now 86. It's a letter
14 that was sent out to all of the employees. They somehow
15 got a list of all the employees on the film. And each
16 employee got a letter like this.
17 BY MR. DANDAR:
18 Q And what is that letter attempting to do?
19 A Again, it is attempting to get them to quit and
20 not work on the film.
21 THE COURT: Was this sent to their homes?
22 THE WITNESS: Yes, home address. They had
23 the home address of everybody. They followed a couple
24 of the young ladies home, and that really got us upset
25 because these are -- you know, they always pick on the
Page 166
1 single ladies. And that frightened them.
2 One of them was my assistant, Kate, and she
3 was kind of freaked out about that. The
4 Scientologists showed up on her door. And another was
5 one of the costuming assistants, a lady named Jade.
6 So they were basically, apparently, taking
7 down people's license tags and then -- and/or
8 following them home and/or getting their home
9 information from driver's license records or other
10 sources.
11 BY MR. DANDAR:
12 Q What effect --
13 A They had some source.
14 Q What effect did this have on your cast and
15 employees?
16 A Varying effects. Some people -- like when the
17 first one came and it said about me being in the KKK, well,
18 pretty much everybody on the crew knew that my mother is
19 Jewish, so that actually got a laugh.
20 And -- however, when they started following those
21 two young ladies home, that was upsetting to them. And
22 they came to us and they said they were afraid.
23 Q And did they do anything because of that?
24 A Yes. We asked for an injunction to stop the
25 Foundation for Religious Tolerance, which was a group that
Page 167
1 we understood was created by a Scientologist named Mary
2 Demoss. And we asked for an injunction to prevent them
3 from their tortious interference with our business, but
4 that was not granted.
5 Q And you had John Merrett representing you?
6 A Yes, we did.
7 Q And what is your understanding of why the
8 injunction was not granted?
9 A I never understood what the judge's ruling was,
10 quite frankly. He just said denied.
11 Q Do you know if it had anything to do with the
12 competency of John Merrett's pleadings?
13 THE COURT: How would he know that?
14 BY MR. DANDAR:
15 Q I mean if you know.
16 MR. WEINBERG: Your Honor --
17 THE COURT: He wouldn't know.
18 MR. DANDAR: All right.
19 THE COURT: You could never -- unless the
20 judge wrote in an order, "I'm denying it because the
21 lawyer is incompetent," he really wouldn't know that.
22 THE WITNESS: He didn't say that. He just
23 said denied.
24 MR. DANDAR: All right. I'm not saying that
25 he was. I'm just saying if he knew anything. Okay.
Page 168
1 THE COURT: I mean, I don't know that
2 Mr. Merrett is an incompetent lawyer.
3 MR. DANDAR: No. I say I'm not saying that.
4 THE COURT: Right.
5 MR. DANDAR: Correct.
6 THE COURT: He seemed like a very bright
7 fellow. He uses big words.
8 MR. DANDAR: He comes up with some dillies.
9 THE COURT: He does --
10 BY MR. DANDAR:
11 Q Now, during this --
12 THE COURT: I know that he thinks an
13 order -- you have to look real carefully to see what
14 they say. If they don't say exactly what he thinks,
15 it's all right for him to tote off evidence. I know
16 he thinks that.
17 MR. DANDAR: I have no comment to that.
18 BY MR. DANDAR:
19 Q Did Mr. Minton get involved in the production of
20 the movie?
21 MR. WEINBERG: Well, your Honor, before we
22 go there, I'm sure at some point Mr. Dandar is going
23 to offer these into --
24 THE COURT: Yes.
25 MR. WEINBERG: -- evidence.
Page 169
1 THE COURT: Why doesn't he offer them now?
2 MR. DANDAR: Any objection?
3 THE COURT: Any objection?
4 MR. WEINBERG: Yes.
5 THE COURT: Why?
6 MR. WEINBERG: Objection. Relevance, for
7 one.
8 THE COURT: Well, that'll be overruled.
9 MR. WEINBERG: And secondly, what he's
10 talking -- I mean, the client -- it's very easy to say
11 there were a couple of Catholics that were standing
12 outside my -- my place of business protesting and then
13 try to offer that against the Catholic Church.
14 And in this case, for example, the
15 Foundation for Religious Tolerance apparently is an
16 organization created by this woman that drafted the
17 last letter, which is 86, Mary Demoss. She's not a
18 staff member of Flag or the Church of Scientology.
19 She's a public, just like Mr. Alexander was. She is
20 a, quote, Scientologist, just as Mr. Dandar says he's
21 a Catholic.
22 And because she decided and her organization
23 decided to distribute information, that doesn't make
24 it admissible against the Flag Service Organization,
25 which is the -- which is the defendant in this case.
Page 170
1 And specifically, if you look at this stuff
2 here, most of them have "Foundation for Religious
3 Tolerance" on them. Some don't have anything on them.
4 There was no suggestion that these two folks that you
5 identified, Mr. Alexander identified, as
6 Scientologists were staff members.
7 And then there's one fax here that was sent
8 to an insurance company that doesn't have any -- any
9 indication on it that it was sent from Flag Services
10 Organization.
11 So my objection is relevance plus -- what's
12 the legal objection, there's nothing on these
13 documents that would -- that would, in my opinion, be
14 admissible as to the client in this case, which is the
15 Church of Scientology Flag Service Org.
16 THE COURT: Overruled.
17 BY MR. DANDAR:
18 Q Mr. Alexander, do you know who Mary Demoss is?
19 A Yes. She is a public member of Scientology.
20 However, I observed that there was a link between her and
21 the private investigators who followed us routinely.
22 On one particular day when we were shooting at
23 the Tampa Yacht Club, which is at the end of Davis Island,
24 we observed -- I observed directly, too, and Mike Croates,
25 who worked for me, observed five more and filmed them,
Page 171
1 private investigators, all of whom he recognized as being
2 private investigators. And we had videotape of them.
3 One of them was a guy from the Church of
4 Scientology -- one of them was a guy named Danny Ortero.
5 Now, Danny -- then, okay, that happened I would say in late
6 August. When we were filming in September, I observed
7 Danny Otero, who is a gentleman who is about 5'7". He has
8 thinning white hair. And he was driving a red, big
9 four-door American sedan.
10 And he showed up and parked his car in front of
11 our building and then went over to -- and that's how I
12 noticed it -- Mary Demoss and Richard Hurst -- that was the
13 other gentleman's name, Richard Hurst -- were there.
14 THE COURT: Those were the two passing them
15 out?
16 THE WITNESS: Yes. On that particular date,
17 it was Mary Demoss and Richard Hurst.
18 THE COURT: Is he a member of the Church of
19 Scientology?
20 THE WITNESS: Yes. He's the gentleman who
21 appeared the first day when we were at the Friday
22 Morning Musicale.
23 MR. WEINBERG: Can we just identify him as a
24 public member and not a staff member?
25 THE COURT: Yes.
Page 172
1 THE WITNESS: Yes. Is your name Weinberg,
2 sir?
3 MR. WEINBERG: Correct.
4 THE WITNESS: Yes, Mr. Weinberg. So --
5 THE COURT: These investigators were people
6 that you knew were hired by the Church?
7 THE WITNESS: Right. We had been served
8 summons by Danny Otero before, and he has been noted
9 as working for Scientology -- for Scientology. And so
10 when I observed him going up to Mary Demoss and
11 Richard Hurst and they were driving a 4x4, I thought:
12 "Well, there's a link. He's like bird-dogging them."
13 MR. DANDAR: Danny Otero is a former Tampa
14 police officer who sat in my trials in Tampa recently,
15 taking copious notes of everything that was going on
16 in the trial that had nothing to do with the Church of
17 Scientology, that I was the attorney for the
18 plaintiff.
19 THE COURT: He's an investigator hired by
20 the Church of Scientology?
21 MR. DANDAR: Yes.
22 THE COURT: Flag?
23 MR. DANDAR: Yes.
24 BY MR. DANDAR:
25 Q Mr. Alexander, isn't it true --
Page 173
1 MR. WEINBERG: I mean, with all due respect,
2 I don't know who Danny Otero is. It's possible that
3 the Church, Flag, has hired him. I don't know how
4 Mr. Dandar would know.
5 THE COURT: If he's not, you can put one of
6 your folks up there to say or not.
7 MR. WEINBERG: I mean, I don't know if he is
8 or not, but I don't know how Mr. Dandar would know.
9 I've never heard the name before it came out of
10 Mr. Alexander's mouth.
11 THE COURT: You know what? There may be a
12 lot of things that you don't know that go on in other
13 cases, other things.
14 MR. WEINBERG: That's possible.
15 THE COURT: There may be reasons why you
16 don't know what went on up in New York, you don't know
17 what went on in Clearwater. I don't know. I suspect
18 you don't know everything. He doesn't, he doesn't,
19 but there's enough of a connection to let this in
20 through this hearing.
21 MR. WEINBERG: My comment was, I don't know
22 how Mr. Dandar can say that he knows, and his --
23 THE COURT: I've heard the name before. In
24 some hearing I've had, I've heard that name.
25 MR. DANDAR: Your trial? It could have been
Page 174
1 your trial, because my brother and I were at it, here
2 in St. Petersburg. Another one in Tampa in front of
3 Judge --
4 THE COURT: No, no. I mean I've heard the
5 name of that investigator before.
6 MR. DANDAR: Yes.
7 THE COURT: I don't know where; I don't know
8 how. So I just assumed maybe it was in connection to
9 this case.
10 MR. WEINBERG: I never used him. I never
11 heard the name. But it's possible that he was used.
12 BY MR. DANDAR:
13 Q Mr. Alexander, isn't it true that Mr. Moxon
14 represented the private investigators that you just
15 described at the injunction hearing before Judge --
16 A Yes.
17 Q Either the judge in Tampa or Judge Penick. Which
18 one?
19 A He represented the Foundation for Religious
20 Tolerance, Mary Demoss, in the injunction hearing that we
21 had in Tampa before Judge Arnold, actually.
22 Q And isn't Mary Demoss a volunteer for OSA?
23 A I believe that she is from her activities, but I
24 don't know for sure.
25 Q Okay. And what about the OT Committee? What's
Page 175
1 that?
2 A Well, the OT Committee is a group of dedicated
3 Scientology public members who go and do --
4 THE COURT: Can you tell me what "OT" means?
5 THE WITNESS: Operating thetan. I have to
6 give a little explanation.
7 THE COURT: Actually, I know what a thetan
8 is, and so I guess if "operating" carries its
9 natural --
10 THE WITNESS: It means that you're operating
11 as a spiritual being, independent of your body, and
12 that you actually have that power.
13 THE COURT: Okay.
14 THE WITNESS: Okay. So --
15 THE COURT: I'm sorry. So go back to what
16 you started.
17 THE WITNESS: Okay.
18 BY MR. DANDAR:
19 Q What is the OT Committee?
20 A The OT Committee is a group of dedicated
21 Scientologists who are there to further the goals of
22 Scientology in the Clearwater area. That's the one I'm
23 familiar with.
24 Q All right. And is Mary Demoss part of that?
25 A Yes, I believe she is. She identified herself
Page 176
1 saying that she was on the OT Committee. And so did
2 Richard Hurst, come to think of it. Yes, he said the same
3 thing.
4 Q How do you know, if you do, that they came to
5 know you were doing this movie and where you were?
6 A We had an employee who we had to fire for theft.
7 And when he left, he was disgruntled, and he knew that --
8 where the film company was going to be working. And he had
9 the schedule of all the employees' names and such, so I
10 suspect it was him.
11 Q Now, did Bob Minton ever get involved in the
12 production of this movie outside of just sending you money?
13 A No. It was very odd. He -- Bob seemed to have
14 no interest in it.
15 Q Did he change anything in the movie?
16 A No, never. He wouldn't even come and look at the
17 dailies and things that we filmed. He did it on the day
18 when he was in the movie, where he had a little bit part.
19 But other than that, no.
20 Q And how did he -- what did you observe of him
21 when he had a bit part in the movie?
22 A He came over and looked at a few dailies and then
23 he had that bit part. He was having fun. It was, you
24 know -- it was good for him. He liked it. You know, that
25 was basically -- it's a typical thing that you do in the
Page 177
1 film business. It's a perk that the person who put up the
2 money or their friends get little bit parts if they can
3 act. And actually, Bob did a fine job, and so did Stacy.
4 Q Did I have a bit part?
5 A Yes, you did.
6 Q And how did I get involved?
7 A I saw you one day. And I think I just looked at
8 you and I said: "You know what? You look like an FBI
9 agent to me." I think that was it, something like that. I
10 said: "Do you want -- do you want a little bit part? I
11 think you might be able to be Agent Sanders."
12 And you said, "Yes, sure, I'd like that."
13 Q Okay. And did I have any input in the movie?
14 A No.
15 Q Other than this bit part?
16 A No.
17 Q Did I tell you how to do things to try to rouse
18 up the public against the Church of Scientology?
19 A No. I didn't even know you that well at the
20 time.
21 Q Did Mr. Minton ever give you any checks that you
22 looked at and kind of wondered why he gave you a check like
23 that?
24 A He gave me a number of checks. I don't think I
25 really questioned them a lot, no. I can't say that I did.
Page 178
1 Q Did you ever get checks that you knew somehow, in
2 some way, came from Mr. Minton but he didn't mail it to you
3 or deliver it to you?
4 A Yes. The last -- I think it was the last two
5 checks. I'm certain of the last one -- but I think it
6 might have been the last two -- I picked up from Stacy
7 Brooks herself. And that was the check -- it was about
8 October, I think, of --
9 Q What year?
10 A 2000. And then the last one was like in April of
11 2001, I would say.
12 Q And that came from Stacy Brooks?
13 A Yes. Yes, she had the envelope.
14 Q And were these checks that were written that
15 didn't have Mr. Minton's name on it?
16 A No, they didn't have Mr. Minton's name on them.
17 Q But Stacy Brooks handed them to you?
18 A Right.
19 Q Did she say, "This is from Mr. Minton"?
20 A No. She just said, "I have something for you."
21 Q Okay. Did Patricia Greenway ever handle these
22 checks?
23 A No.
24 Q How did they get handled then after you got them?
25 A Well, when you get a big check -- I mean,
Page 179
1 normally we get wire transfers for large amounts. But when
2 we get a big actual check, either I go right over to the
3 bank and put it in myself or I would have given it to our
4 accountant, Brian. And if he said he had something else to
5 do, I would say: "No. You don't. Go take this to the
6 bank now."
7 Q What was Patricia Greenway's role in this movie?
8 A She was producer. She was actually line
9 producer, they call it, and she was responsible for getting
10 things done and controlling the costs for the movie, per
11 the budget that I had established.
12 Q Why isn't her name on the contract with
13 Mr. Minton and yourself?
14 A She wasn't a party.
15 Q Is she an employee then?
16 A Yes, she's an employee.
17 Q Did you ever tell Patricia how much the checks
18 were when they came in?
19 A No.
20 Q Did you ever advertise for this movie --
21 A Yes.
22 Q -- when it was finished?
23 A Yes, I did.
24 Q Did you ever use the word "Scientology" in your
25 ad?
Page 180
1 A No.
2 Q Did the Church of Scientology ever make a public
3 statement about whether or not this had anything to do with
4 Scientology?
5 A Yes. Ben Shaw was quoted in the newspapers, on
6 television, and we actually got a copy of a fax that they
7 sent over. And it said, "This movie has nothing to do with
8 Scientology."
9 Q Did you do a survey of the public --
10 THE COURT: I'm sorry. Did you say you had
11 that or that's just testimony?
12 MR. DANDAR: That's just testimony.
13 THE COURT: Oh, okay.
14 MR. DANDAR: Again, if you want it --
15 THE COURT: No, no. I just -- I thought --
16 I heard papers rattling, and I guess I just thought it
17 was coming.
18 MR. DANDAR: Oh, we do have it, sorry.
19 THE COURT: You can keep going.
20 BY MR. DANDAR:
21 Q Okay. Did you ever -- where did you show the
22 movie to the public?
23 A To the public, we did a test screening in
24 Clearwater at the movie theater on U.S. 19.
25 Q When was that?
Page 181
1 A Started August 24th, and it ran for eight weeks.
2 Q What year?
3 A Of 2001.
4 Q And what -- did you do a survey of the public's
5 reaction?
6 A Yes.
7 THE COURT: I'm sorry, for eight weeks
8 beginning when?
9 THE WITNESS: August 24th, 2001.
10 THE COURT: Okay. Thank you.
11 A Yes. I was familiar, because when I was vice
12 president of entertainment on the tour, I would get all the
13 surveys of all the movies that we did so we could see what
14 might end up being a good tour attraction. So basically I
15 just took the questions off the Universal Studio tour
16 survey. And we passed those out to the -- that was the
17 whole purpose, really, of the screening, just to see what
18 people thought of the film.
19 THE COURT: I don't know what that is, a
20 screening.
21 THE WITNESS: A screening is, you know,
22 basically -- we didn't -- we had the -- the desire and
23 the intention just to get members of the general
24 public to come in and watch the film so we could hand
25 them a survey and say, "What did you think of that?"
Page 182
1 And then they would fill out the survey and hand it to
2 us. It's called an exit survey.
3 THE COURT: Is the screening done before a
4 movie is finished so that changes can be made --
5 THE WITNESS: Right.
6 THE COURT: -- if you get certain responses?
7 THE WITNESS: Right. You know, I was the
8 director of the movie. I knew it was a little long.
9 So it had some slow parts, so I wanted to watch the
10 audience reaction, see what the surveys said so we
11 would know how to cut it down. So that was the
12 purpose of running it.
13 BY MR. DANDAR:
14 Q Let me show you what's marked as Plaintiff's
15 Exhibit 87. I only have the one copy, and we'll make
16 copies.
17 A Okay.
18 Q Just identify what that is.
19 A That's a fax of the logo with the Church of
20 Scientology Flag Service Organization. And then the second
21 page is this fax that we were given a copy of from
22 Channel 28, which says:
23 "The movie has nothing to do with us. That
24 was what the producers are saying. We are not
25 interested. No one is interested. They are
Page 183
1 paranoid. They are telling lies that are nothing
2 but publicity stunts to manufacture interest in a
3 very bad movie that no one is interested in. I
4 have some suggested names for this movie: No
5 Hope for Profit, A Lack of Profit, The
6 Nonprofit."
7 THE COURT: That was -- those were quotes
8 from whom?
9 THE WITNESS: I think they were from
10 Mr. Shaw's office, but not directly from Mr. Shaw.
11 MR. DANDAR: Should I leave this here or
12 have it marked first and then I'll make copies of it?
13 THE COURT: Any objection to this being
14 introduced?
15 MR. WEINBERG: Since I haven't seen it . . .
16 THE COURT: All right. Oooh.
17 MR. WEINBERG: I won't ask you to hold it
18 out any more.
19 THE COURT: Yes.
20 MR. WEINBERG: You're in a lot of trouble if
21 it's hurting when you hold a piece of paper.
22 THE COURT: It's just catching when I move
23 it a certain way.
24 MR. WEINBERG: Okay. That's fine. I just
25 wanted to see it.
Page 184
1 Okay, Judge.
2 THE COURT: All right.
3 MR. WEINBERG: Just one second.
4 THE COURT: It'll be received -- you know
5 what? None of us has it.
6 MR. DANDAR: I'm going to copy it after she
7 marks it. I don't want it to get lost.
8 THE COURT: All right.
9 MR. DANDAR: I'll tell you what. That's not
10 a good idea. Let me just copy it now. It's marked on
11 the bottom. Let me get it marked after I make copies.
12 MR. WEINBERG: What's the number?
13 MR. LIROT: 87. I'll take responsibility
14 for that.
15 MR. DANDAR: Good. All right.
16 MR. WEINBERG: Is there a date on that?
17 MR. LIROT: July 2nd, '01.
18 MR. WEINBERG: Okay.
19 BY MR. DANDAR:
20 Q So what was the result of the survey from this
21 screening?
22 A The survey rates the film from 6 being excellent,
23 down to 1 being poor. The film surveys rated it 4.6, which
24 is between good and very good.
25 Q Now, the screening just ran for a short period of
Page 185
1 time. It wasn't distributed to the general public?
2 A No, it was not.
3 Q And how did it play at this -- what was the name
4 of the place you had it screened at?
5 A It was called -- jeez, it's owned by Larry
6 Greenbaum. What's the name of that place?
7 Q Is it like a pub of some kind?
8 A Yes. It's like -- oh, it was the Clearwater
9 Cinema Cafe.
10 Q Okay. So it's not a normal movie theater?
11 A No. It's a small -- that's one of the reasons it
12 ran so long, because -- well, the first week it completely
13 sold out, and there were only 158 seats available. And it
14 set a house record, as a matter of fact.
15 But you couldn't get enough people in there. We
16 couldn't get enough surveys filled out to really have the
17 same effect. You know, when we had the big surveys of the
18 films at Universal, we would do it, you know, in 400-seat
19 movie houses, and we would have 400 surveys right away. It
20 took us all that time to get 200 surveys.
21 Q All right. Let's go off the movie now on to
22 something else.
23 THE COURT: Wait. I want to ask you a
24 question.
25 THE WITNESS: Sure.
Page 186
1 THE COURT: First of all, your movie is way
2 too dark.
3 THE WITNESS: Well, you saw -- let me just
4 say you saw a non-color-corrected print taken off of
5 the regular master. Before you go to real video, you
6 make a color-corrected print off of a special other
7 print that's done just for video. That's just a
8 rough -- you know, you saw something that doesn't --
9 THE COURT: A rough draft, sort of.
10 THE WITNESS: Yes.
11 THE COURT: Okay. What I do want to know is
12 this. Could you tell from the people that did come
13 whether you were getting a lot of the, for lack of a
14 better word, the anti-Scientology group? Or could you
15 not tell that?
16 THE WITNESS: In the first two weeks I
17 didn't like the survey results, so I threw that out.
18 It's not part of the 4.6 because -- it wasn't that we
19 were getting just people who know about Scientology or
20 the controversy; we had too many friends of ours or
21 members of the cast or --
22 THE COURT: Giving it perfect 10s.
23 THE WITNESS: Yes. So we just threw those
24 out.
25 THE COURT: Okay.
Page 187
1 BY MR. DANDAR:
2 Q All right. Let's go back to you and
3 Mr. Minton's -- you and Mr. Minton. Did there come a time
4 when Mr. Minton actually appeared on the sound stage for
5 the movie The Profit?
6 A Yes, on the day that he had his bit part.
7 Q His bit part.
8 A Right.
9 Q He played a doctor?
10 A Played a doctor, yes.
11 Q Okay.
12 A He was on for a couple sets.
13 Q And after his bit part was over -- filming was
14 over, did he stay on the sound stage?
15 A I took him back over, and I wanted to show him
16 some of the dailies. He said, "I think it's great." And
17 then he left.
18 Q Okay. Do you remember afterwards going to the
19 Hyatt downtown for some drinks with Mr. Minton?
20 THE COURT: I have another stupid question
21 to ask him. I ask a lot more questions in the
22 afternoon because I have to try to stay awake.
23 THE WITNESS: Sure.
24 THE COURT: The -- a producer such as
25 Mr. Minton is a producer, kind of a non- -- he doesn't
Page 188
1 have any skills --
2 THE WITNESS: Right.
3 THE COURT: -- in movie production. But
4 he's sort of the investor. He's the one that's paying
5 for it. Do they typically involve themselves in it?
6 Or does it just depend on the person?
7 THE WITNESS: It depends on the person. I
8 mean, I could name names. But there are some people
9 that are all over the set and they've got their
10 friends there, their lady friends and their whatnot,
11 and they're all over the place. Some people, they put
12 the money in and they never show. It's just an
13 investment.
14 THE COURT: It's an investment --
15 THE WITNESS: Yes.
16 THE COURT: -- and they just hope it makes
17 money for them.
18 THE WITNESS: Right. A lot.
19 THE COURT: They trust those who do have the
20 skills.
21 THE WITNESS: Right.
22 THE COURT: So it kind of goes all over the
23 waterfront there.
24 THE WITNESS: Yes.
25 THE COURT: All right. Thanks.
Page 189
1 BY MR. DANDAR:
2 Q Do you recall this particular time that
3 Mr. Minton showed up at the sound stage and you all went to
4 the Hyatt for drinks?
5 A I recall another occasion, but it wasn't the day
6 he was on the film. That was much, much earlier.
7 Q Okay.
8 A That was back in April.
9 Q Of what year?
10 A 2000.
11 Q All right. And what was your conversation with
12 Mr. Minton at the Hyatt?
13 A We had just come from looking at the sound stage
14 where we were building the set. He didn't seem to be very
15 interested in it. He seemed to be agitated and upset and
16 unhappy. So he ordered a drink.
17 And I said, "What's up?"
18 He said: "These Scientologists are driving me
19 crazy. They're following me everywhere. They're harassing
20 my daughters." He said, "And I'm very, very upset." And
21 he said, "They're all over me for this Nigerian thing." He
22 made some business deal in Nigeria.
23 And I said, "Well, so? What's up with that?"
24 You know, "They're not going to get anything on you."
25 And then Patricia was there for some of that
Page 190
1 conversation. She left. And when she left and he was
2 talking about that Nigeria money, he broke down into tears,
3 and he said that he had tax problems with respect to that
4 money and that that was what was worrying him. And so --
5 Q Did he say what kind of tax problems he had with
6 that Nigerian money?
7 A Yes, said he hadn't paid taxes on that money.
8 Q And he was in tears?
9 A Yes.
10 Q Now, he's taking an alcoholic drink. Is he on
11 his bipolar medicine?
12 A Yes --
13 MR. WEINBERG: Objection. Your Honor, maybe
14 Mr. Dandar -- if you remember when this --
15 Mr. Minton's psychiatric issues came up, you told
16 Mr. Minton -- told Mr. Dandar to go somewhere else.
17 And now Mr. Dandar --
18 THE COURT: If the objection is just one of
19 relevance, if you would say so, I'll sustain it. We
20 could move on.
21 MR. WEINBERG: Relevance.
22 THE COURT: Sustained.
23 MR. DANDAR: I did ask Mr. Minton if he was
24 bipolar and if he was diagnosed bipolar, and he said
25 no.
Page 191
1 THE COURT: Yes. You already asked him
2 that, and that is in the record.
3 MR. DANDAR: All right.
4 THE COURT: What was asked now is whether he
5 had a drink with this bipolar medication.
6 MR. DANDAR: No. He had a drink because he
7 was not on his bipolar medication, but that's all
8 right. We won't go there.
9 THE COURT: It is all right. Move on.
10 MR. DANDAR: All right.
11 BY MR. DANDAR:
12 Q Now --
13 THE COURT: Are you assuming that everybody
14 that is on any type of psychiatric medication
15 automatically doesn't have a drink because the doctor
16 says not to?
17 MR. DANDAR: Well, they shouldn't have a
18 drink.
19 THE COURT: Well, that may well be. But I
20 guarantee you, just in case you didn't know, that's
21 totally irrelevant. It meant nothing.
22 BY MR. DANDAR:
23 Q Okay. Now, we already talked about May of 2000,
24 when Mr. Minton said he was going to cause a check to be
25 sent. Now I'm going to direct your attention now to the
Page 192
1 summer of 2000. Do you recall having a phone call with
2 Mr. Minton in the summer of 2000 about the Lisa McPherson
3 case?
4 THE COURT: Summer of what?
5 MR. DANDAR: 2000.
6 THE COURT: Okay. Thank you.
7 A I had a conversation with him in May about --
8 that he wasn't going to fund the case anymore. After
9 that --
10 THE COURT: You said that was May?
11 THE WITNESS: Yes, ma'am.
12 MR. WEINBERG: He already testified about
13 that.
14 THE WITNESS: Yes.
15 MR. DANDAR: Yes.
16 MR. WEINBERG: Five minutes ago.
17 BY MR. DANDAR:
18 Q Did you have a similar conversation of -- several
19 months later in the summer of 2000? If you don't remember,
20 that's all right. We'll move on.
21 A Don't recall.
22 Q All right.
23 A No, sir.
24 Q Let me direct your attention with -- did there
25 come a time in October or so of 2000 where --
Page 193
1 THE COURT: I'm sorry, I think what I was
2 trying to show -- I must have been asleep because I
3 don't remember. What did he just testify about?
4 MR. WEINBERG: This was some time ago he
5 testified about a conversation in May of 2000 that he
6 had had with Mr. Minton. It was -- he already
7 testified --
8 THE COURT: Okay. Well, it's in the record.
9 Do we all agree it's in the record?
10 MR. DANDAR: Yes.
11 MR. WEINBERG: Yes.
12 THE COURT: It's always good to have a big
13 lunch on a Friday.
14 MR. DANDAR: Yes.
15 THE COURT: Okay.
16 BY MR. DANDAR:
17 Q All right. Do you recall in October of 2000 the
18 Lisa McPherson Trust had a benefit concert in downtown
19 Clearwater?
20 A Yes.
21 Q And do you recall speaking with Mr. Minton around
22 that time?
23 A Yes. He would -- again was concerned about this
24 Nigerian thing and the Scientologists were after him. And
25 he thought that they were going to file charges against
Page 194
1 him, the Swiss were. And they were -- apparently at that
2 time they were -- the Scientologists were threatening to
3 file charges against Bob or have charges filed against him.
4 So I said: "Well, huh. Let me go check that out."
5 And I have a friend who is the administrative
6 judge in the federal district -- federal part of
7 Switzerland. They have cantons like we have states, and
8 then they have the federal. And so I called him up, and I
9 said, you know, "A friend of mine says he's going to be
10 accused of money laundering here in Switzerland."
11 He said, "Well --"
12 MR. WEINBERG: Objection. Hearsay, your
13 Honor.
14 THE COURT: Sustained as to what he said.
15 BY MR. DANDAR:
16 Q All right. What did you tell Bob Minton?
17 A I told Bob Minton that he was in no danger, that,
18 you know, my friend the judge said that there was no case
19 filed.
20 Q There was no case filed at that time?
21 A Yes, that's correct.
22 Q Did you ever have any conversations with
23 Mr. Minton about any --
24 THE COURT: Maybe -- I don't know, do you
25 know anything about Swiss law or anything about --
Page 195
1 THE WITNESS: He told me about it. I mean,
2 I know as much as this judge told me.
3 THE COURT: I just am curious as to how
4 anybody -- in this country, of course, nobody can have
5 charges filed against somebody. Only the government
6 can bring a criminal charge.
7 THE WITNESS: Right.
8 THE COURT: I mean, I can call up somebody
9 and say, you know, I want to report this or that. But
10 the State of Florida brings charges; the United States
11 of America brings a charge.
12 THE WITNESS: Yes. It's the same way in
13 Switzerland. What he said was that --
14 THE COURT: So when Bob said "they" -- what
15 you say is he said, "The Scientologists were going to
16 bring charges against me." I don't get that.
17 THE WITNESS: See, it was that he thought
18 the Scientologists were going to give some evidence to
19 the Swiss prosecutors that would cause him to be
20 charged by the Swiss government.
21 THE COURT: Cause him to be prosecuted --
22 THE WITNESS: Yes. Yes, ma'am.
23 BY MR. DANDAR:
24 Q Did he ever say what they thought they had or
25 what the charges were that were going to be brought?
Page 196
1 A No.
2 Q All right. Did there ever come a time
3 anywhere -- at any time, sorry, where Bob Minton talked
4 about any agreements that he had with the Estate of Lisa
5 McPherson and the wrongful death case?
6 A Yes. Yes, he did. Trying to remember when that
7 was.
8 THE COURT: I can hear you all clear up
9 here --
10 MR. WEINBERG: I'm sorry.
11 THE COURT: -- Mr. Weinberg.
12 A Boy. I think that was in -- that was in July of
13 2000. Yes, that's when it was. And he said that --
14 because we were talking about the film and how we expected
15 it to do.
16 And he said, "Well, I hope it does pretty good
17 because, you know, I may never get a nickel out of this
18 Lisa McPherson lawsuit."
19 And I said, "What's up with that?"
20 And he said something like, "Well, you know, it's
21 entirely voluntary on their part that they even give me or
22 the trust any money."
23 BY MR. DANDAR:
24 Q Did you talk about going on radio or in the
25 public and saying something different than that?
Page 197
1 A Yes. I don't remember when that was, if that was
2 that time or that was another time. He made some remark in
3 one of his comical modes like -- at some point in time, I
4 remember that he said, "Yes, I went on the radio, and I
5 said I was going to get all the money from it." He said,
6 "I just did that to get Scientology."
7 But, you know, that was Bob.
8 Q He liked to rile them up a little bit?
9 A He was --
10 Q Now, what is the reason why you and Patricia
11 Greenway were asked to leave the board of directors of the
12 LMT in December of 2000?
13 A Well, the particular thing that happened was that
14 Patricia was asking Mark Bunker, who was the
15 videographer --
16 THE COURT: Wait a second here. I'm just
17 not -- you're going too fast. Hang on just a minute.
18 Okay. Go ahead.
19 A Patricia had asked Mark Bunker for a videotape.
20 And Mark Bunker said, "Well" -- I don't remember a
21 videotape of what, even. But Mark Bunker said, "Well, I
22 put the request, your request, on Stacy's desk."
23 And Patricia said: "Don't put it on Stacy's
24 desk. Nothing will ever happen to it. You know what
25 Stacy's desk" -- I don't know what term she used, but it
Page 198
1 was like a black hole. You know, it was going to go in
2 there and it wasn't going to come out. "Just give me the
3 dang tape."
4 Well, Stacy got wind of this, and she didn't like
5 it one bit. So when we went over there to the Lisa
6 McPherson Trust one day, she confronted Patricia and I with
7 that and said, "Why are you saying that I'm not a good
8 administrator?"
9 And Patricia said, "Well, because you're not."
10 And I said: "What's the big deal? You didn't
11 even want to be --"
12 She didn't want to be the executive director of
13 the Lisa McPherson Trust because she didn't have that kind
14 of administrative ability, she said.
15 So I said, "What's the big deal?" You know:
16 "Nobody thinks that you're like Ms. Management or anything
17 like that. Forget it."
18 And -- but she didn't want to forget --
19 THE COURT: Something like Ms. Manners?
20 THE WITNESS: Ms. Management, yes.
21 THE COURT: Ms. Management.
22 A So -- so, you know, she got upset. And she went
23 into her office and then a couple minutes later called
24 Patricia and I into her office and said: "Come in here.
25 Bob wants to talk to you."
Page 199
1 So we go in there, and Bob's on the phone --
2 speaker phone. And he's yelling at us and screaming at us.
3 And, you know, I'm not used to being talked to like that,
4 and Patricia isn't either. We're like business people from
5 the business world.
6 And so, you know, at the end of it, Bob said:
7 "Well, that's it. You're off the board."
8 And so I said: "Hey, man, whatever. I'm out of
9 here."
10 Q Were you being paid to be on the board?
11 A No.
12 Q That was just a voluntary thing?
13 A Yes.
14 Q Now, you continued, though, after you were off
15 the board of directors of the Lisa McPherson Trust to
16 continue to work on the movie The Profit?
17 A Yes.
18 Q And did there come a time when there was a
19 showing in Europe of this film?
20 A Yes. On June the 9th, the film -- Bob asked us,
21 as a matter of fact, if we would go to Leipzig, Germany,
22 and show the film to a human rights congress in Leipzig,
23 Germany.
24 Q And was that 2001?
25 A 2001, yes.
Page 200
1 Q Six months after you were kicked off the board?
2 A Yes.
3 Q And did you go?
4 A Yes, we went. We took the film. We showed it to
5 the attendees at the conference and some press people.
6 Q Did Bob Minton show up for that?
7 A No, he wasn't there. You know, Bob has never
8 seen this film in a theater on film. He wasn't -- I don't
9 know, I guess maybe he wasn't that interested.
10 Q Okay. Did there come a time -- first of all, let
11 me ask you this. What type of relationship do you and I
12 have?
13 A Well, I would say now we're friends.
14 Q And when did that start?
15 A Oh, it was sometime after all this. I think
16 maybe -- actually, maybe early this year.
17 Q And let's go back to the trust for a minute.
18 While you were there, '99, October -- I think you said
19 October, November '99 to December of 2000, did you see me
20 at the trust?
21 A I saw you once. You were there complaining about
22 the fact that they were picketing. You didn't like it.
23 Q Okay. Is that the only time you saw me there?
24 A That's the only time I recall.
25 Q Okay. Do you know if I had an office at the
Page 201
1 trust?
2 A No, you didn't have an office at the trust.
3 Q Did I -- well, outside of what you already talked
4 about, is there any other incidents where you can recall
5 that I did any kind of input with the trust?
6 A No, not that I remember. I never saw you around
7 there.
8 Q Okay.
9 A I mean, I saw you that time. I remember that
10 time.
11 Q Okay. Let's go then to this year, 2002.
12 A Okay.
13 Q Did there come a time in 2002 when I had any
14 lunch or discussion with you at lunch concerning funding of
15 the Lisa McPherson Trust case?
16 A Yes. That was back in March. And Patricia and I
17 were at the Cheesecake Factory in Tampa. And you came up
18 and joined us for lunch and indicated that you were trying
19 to get funding for the case and that a check was going to
20 be sent to you but it wasn't from Bob Minton. It was from
21 some other source or something like that. I can't
22 remember.
23 Q Did I tell you what the conditions were --
24 A Oh, yes.
25 Q -- if any?
Page 202
1 A Yes. The conditions were that you had to stop
2 talking to Patricia Greenway forevermore.
3 Q Did you hear anything about Internet critics of
4 Bob Minton stop -- because he stopped funding the case?
5 A Yes, that Bob was upset about it. I understood
6 that, although I think I understood that -- I don't follow
7 this Internet thing. You know, I don't go on the Internet
8 and look at that material. So that was at a later time.
9 MR. DANDAR: Okay. Just a minute.
10 That's all I have.
11 THE COURT: Okay. Good time to take a
12 little afternoon break.
13 MR. WEINBERG: Your Honor, I'm pretty under
14 the weather. Mr. Moxon is going to do the cross.
15 THE COURT: That's fine.
16 (Break taken at 2:32 p.m. until 2:47 p.m.)
17 THE COURT: You may be seated.
18 You may continue.
19 MR. MOXON: Are you finished?
20 MR. DANDAR: Yes.
21 CROSS-EXAMINATION
22 BY MR. MOXON:
23 Q Mr. Alexander, you know nothing about the
24 introspection rundown, do you?
25 A No.
Page 203
1 Q You said you never heard of it?
2 A Not while I was in Scientology.
3 Q You were in Scientology for 20 years?
4 A Yes.
5 Q And during the time that you were in Scientology,
6 surely you knew about the book, What Is Scientology? didn't
7 you?
8 A That came out at the very end.
9 Q Yes. You know that in What Is Scientology? is a
10 description of the introspection rundown?
11 A No, I didn't know that.
12 Q You left in 1998?
13 A Yes.
14 Q Didn't the first edition of this come out in the
15 early 1990s?
16 A I don't know. I never had that book.
17 Q Okay. You don't have any knowledge concerning
18 what happened to Lisa McPherson personally, do you?
19 A Not personally, no.
20 Q You don't know any of the defendants in this
21 case, do you?
22 A Is Janis Johnson one, the MLO? Is she one?
23 Q That's right.
24 A I might have seen her once.
25 Q But you don't know what any of them were doing in
Page 204
1 1995, do you?
2 THE COURT: I'm sorry, what was that
3 question?
4 BY MR. MOXON:
5 Q You don't know what any of the defendants were
6 doing in 1995?
7 MR. LIROT: Judge, I'd like more of a
8 predicate. I'd like a list of the defendants. I
9 don't know that Mr. Alexander is even --
10 THE COURT: Yes.
11 MR. LIROT: -- familiar with all the
12 defendants.
13 THE COURT: I believe that's true. I
14 believe he --
15 The Church of Scientology Flag Service
16 Organization, I presume you might know something about
17 that.
18 THE WITNESS: I know dozens of people.
19 MR. MOXON: Individuals I'm talking about.
20 THE COURT: Okay. But Alain Kartuzinski,
21 Janis Johnson, and David Houghton.
22 A I think I saw Janis Johnson once.
23 BY MR. MOXON:
24 Q By the way, who prepared you to testify today?
25 A Mr. Dandar.
Page 205
1 Q Did he tell you the questions he was going to ask
2 you?
3 A He asked me questions, but they weren't, as it
4 turned out, the same questions that he asked here.
5 Q So the questions you were asked today were
6 totally new?
7 A No. Some of them were; some of them weren't.
8 Q You basically had no idea what he was going to
9 ask you today?
10 A No. He basically asked me some of the questions,
11 and -- but some of them were new.
12 Q You said David Miscavige was the captain of the
13 Sea Organization, correct?
14 A Yes.
15 Q Was he the only captain?
16 A I think he's in charge. I don't know if he's the
17 only captain, but I know he's in charge.
18 Q Have you ever heard of Guillaume Lesvre?
19 THE REPORTER: I'm sorry, who?
20 MR. MOXON: Guillaume Lesvre.
21 THE COURT: Better spell that.
22 MR. MOXON: G-u-i-l-l-a-u-m-e, L-e-s-v-r-e.
23 A Yes. He would be also one of the top executives.
24 BY MR. MOXON:
25 Q But he wasn't the captain, was he?
Page 206
1 A He wasn't the captain of the Sea Org. He wasn't
2 in charge.
3 Q Was he a captain or wasn't he?
4 A I don't know.
5 THE COURT: If you don't know the answer to
6 something, you may say, "I don't know."
7 A I don't know.
8 BY MR. MOXON:
9 Q How about Captain Mark Yeager? Did you know him?
10 A No.
11 Q Never heard of him?
12 A I heard that name after I got out of Scientology;
13 but while I was in Scientology, no.
14 Q He was the Watchdog Committee chairman for almost
15 two decades, right?
16 A There's a lot of executives in Scientology.
17 Q Okay. How about Captain Mike Napier? Do you
18 know him?
19 A No.
20 Q He has been the captain of the Freewinds for 15
21 years. Did you know that?
22 A No.
23 Q Do you know who Debbie Cook is?
24 A Yes.
25 Q Do you know what her rank was?
Page 207
1 A No, I don't.
2 Q Captain? Did you know that?
3 A No.
4 Q She was the head of the Flag Service
5 Organization --
6 THE COURT: If he doesn't know who she is --
7 THE WITNESS: I do know who she is.
8 THE COURT: Oh, you do. Okay.
9 A Yes, I know Debbie Cook.
10 BY MR. MOXON:
11 Q She's the head of the Flag Service Organization,
12 right?
13 A She was, yes.
14 Q So you don't know how many people are people of
15 rank in the Sea Organization of David Miscavige, do you?
16 A I know that he's in charge. I don't know what
17 else -- or, the other ranks of people, no.
18 Q That's based on your personal knowledge, of you
19 being there and seeing him in the organization, right?
20 A You bet. The way they snapped and jumped when he
21 was coming, oh, he was in charge, let me tell you.
22 THE COURT: Don't editorialize. Don't say
23 "Yeah," and all that, please.
24 BY MR. MOXON:
25 Q Do you know what Jesse Prince's rank was?
Page 208
1 A No.
2 Q He obviously wasn't a captain, was he.
3 A I don't know.
4 Q By the way, do you even know what the hierarchy
5 is of ranks in the Sea Organization?
6 A Same as the Navy.
7 Q What's the lowest rank in the Sea Organization?
8 A I don't remember what they call it, but I think
9 it's just like a seaman in the Navy.
10 Q Well, there is no seaman rank in the Sea
11 Organization.
12 A I don't know what they call it.
13 THE COURT: You can't testify, Counselor,
14 unless you want to get up here.
15 BY MR. MOXON:
16 Q Now, when you hear Scientologists refer to David
17 Miscavige, they refer to him as COB, right?
18 A Generally, yes.
19 Q Yes. In fact, you testified that all of the
20 publications which have pictures of David Miscavige refer
21 to him as captain of the Sea Org? Is that right?
22 A No. That's not what I testified to.
23 Q Did you see any of them refer to him as captain
24 of the Sea Org, a single one?
25 A Yes. There was one that had a picture of the
Page 209
1 Flag crew, and they were all in their uniforms, all in
2 their dress uniforms.
3 Q Something Mr. Dandar showed you?
4 A No, no. I saw that when I was in Scientology.
5 Q Are you familiar with Scientology News?
6 THE COURT: Let him finish his -- let him
7 finish his answer.
8 Go on ahead.
9 THE WITNESS: Yes. Thank you.
10 A What I saw was a -- it was a magazine or maybe --
11 yes, it was a magazine cover. And it had like a lineup of
12 all the members of the Flag crew with -- and the
13 executives; I recognized some of them -- from RTC. And
14 David Miscavige was standing in front. And I'm pretty sure
15 it said on it "Captain David Miscavige," you know. Yes, I
16 think it did.
17 Q You have no document of this, do you?
18 A No.
19 Q That was --
20 A That was years ago.
21 MR. MOXON: May I approach, your Honor?
22 THE COURT: You may.
23 MR. MOXON: I don't think I need to mark
24 these. I just want to show these to the witness.
25 MR. DANDAR: Don't I get a copy?
Page 210
1 THE COURT: You get to look at them before
2 it comes in.
3 MR. MOXON: Publication, Scientology News.
4 MR. WEINBERG: Wait. You need to show him.
5 MR. MOXON: Oh, okay.
6 MR. DANDAR: Do they have the dates on them?
7 That's all I'm interested in.
8 BY MR. MOXON:
9 Q You're familiar with Scientology News?
10 A I don't remember that specific publication, no.
11 Q Never seen them?
12 A We got a lot of stuff sent to our house. I threw
13 most of it out.
14 Q Okay. So did you notice in the pictures of
15 Scientology News that all of the references were to
16 chairman of the board --
17 MR. DANDAR: Objection.
18 Q -- of RTC of David Miscavige?
19 THE COURT: Sustained. No predicate because
20 he's not seen them.
21 BY MR. MOXON:
22 Q Take a look. Have you seen this one?
23 THE COURT: He asked you if you saw it.
24 A I've seen this picture. I don't know if it was
25 in this magazine, but I've seen this picture.
Page 211
1 BY MR. MOXON:
2 Q Okay. It refers to David Miscavige as chairman
3 of the board of RTC?
4 A M'hum (affirmative).
5 THE COURT: Is that yes?
6 THE WITNESS: That's yes.
7 THE COURT: Please don't use "m'hum."
8 THE WITNESS: Okay. That's "yes."
9 BY MR. MOXON:
10 Q Here's another one, 1996 New Year's event,
11 picture of David Miscavige?
12 THE COURT: If you're going to use these
13 things, you're going to have to put them into
14 evidence. I don't have a clue of what it is you're
15 showing him. The record doesn't have a clue of what
16 it is. So if you're going to put something in front
17 of the witness and have him say what it says, you'll
18 have to put it in evidence.
19 MR. MOXON: I will make copies of these and
20 put them in evidence.
21 THE COURT: Okay.
22 BY MR. MOXON:
23 Q Take a look at this one.
24 A Okay.
25 Q Did you see the New Year's event, 1996/'97?
Page 212
1 A No.
2 Q See it refers to David Miscavige as chairman of
3 the board of Religious Technology Center?
4 A Yes, I see that.
5 MR. DANDAR: There's no dispute that's
6 another role that he has. But these are also after
7 1995, so they keep thinking -- that's out of date. It
8 should be 1995 to have relevance to this case.
9 THE COURT: What were the dates on those?
10 MR. MOXON: One of them was 2000; one was
11 1996/'97.
12 THE COURT: That's true. That would not
13 really have any bearing on, I suppose, what was going
14 on in this case, which would had to have been 1995 --
15 up in December of '95.
16 BY MR. MOXON:
17 Q You're the director of Courage Productions?
18 A I was the director of the film The Profit.
19 Q Are you the director of the corporation?
20 A No.
21 Q It's an L.L.C., right?
22 A Correct.
23 Q Does it have a director?
24 A No.
25 Q Does it have an owner?
Page 213
1 A It has members.
2 Q Okay. You and Mr. Minton were the two members?
3 A Correct.
4 Q The only business of Courage Productions was to
5 film The Profit, wasn't it?
6 A That's right.
7 Q And the entire financing for this film was from
8 Mr. Minton?
9 A No.
10 Q How -- Mr. Minton put in $2 1/2 million?
11 A 2.4.
12 Q 2.4. Who put in the rest?
13 A I did.
14 Q How much?
15 A That's company private information.
16 Q How much?
17 A That's company private information, privileged.
18 MR. DANDAR: Object, privilege. There's no
19 relevance to it anyway.
20 THE COURT: What's the relevance?
21 MR. MOXON: Well, the relevance is that
22 Mr. Minton testified that the purpose of this film was
23 to influence potential jurors and to just generally
24 denigrate Scientology. I'm going to show that
25 Mr. Minton had a measure of control over it.
Page 214
1 THE COURT: Well, I think what -- what he
2 put into it by money doesn't necessarily measure
3 control.
4 What were your ownership interests as far as
5 partnership interests or anything like that?
6 THE WITNESS: 50-50.
7 THE COURT: So sustained.
8 BY MR. MOXON:
9 Q You didn't put in $2 1/2 million, did you?
10 MR. DANDAR: Same objection.
11 THE COURT: Sustained. I think Mr. Minton
12 testified as to what he put in anyway.
13 BY MR. MOXON:
14 Q Did Patricia Greenway have any interest in the
15 film?
16 A No.
17 Q She was an employee of Courage Productions?
18 A Yes.
19 Q And the funds that you received and that
20 Ms. Greenway received while you were doing the work on this
21 film came from money from Mr. Minton, correct?
22 A She didn't receive any.
23 Q She didn't receive any money from Courage
24 Productions?
25 A She didn't receive the funds from Mr. Minton. I
Page 215
1 did.
2 Q Okay. But she was paid out of the funds that you
3 received from Mr. Minton, right?
4 A That's correct.
5 Q Did Ms. Greenway tell you that Mr. Minton and
6 Stacy Brooks testified in this case?
7 A They didn't have to -- she didn't have to.
8 Q Who told you?
9 A I knew that they did.
10 Q How did you know that?
11 A I heard from Ken originally that Bob and Stacy
12 were going to be called and that they had filed affidavits.
13 Q Did he tell you he needed you to testify?
14 A He asked me what I knew about the affidavits, and
15 I told him.
16 Q So after Mr. Dandar told you that, you filed a
17 lawsuit against Stacy Brooks. Isn't that right?
18 MR. DANDAR: Relevance.
19 THE COURT: Well, the lawsuit is in
20 evidence, so that's overruled.
21 A Okay. In response to an illegal bad faith
22 posting on the Internet, yes, we did.
23 BY MR. MOXON:
24 Q And you hired Mr. Lirot, plaintiff's counsel, to
25 file that lawsuit against Ms. Brooks?
Page 216
1 A That's correct.
2 Q Was Mr. Lirot being paid out of money that was
3 provided to Courage Productions by Mr. Minton?
4 A That's company private information, privileged.
5 Q Was he --
6 MR. DANDAR: Privileged and relevancy.
7 THE COURT: What's the relevance of this?
8 MR. MOXON: Well, we have a situation
9 here --
10 THE COURT: I mean, that would be relevant
11 if it had something to do with that suit.
12 MR. MOXON: It is. It goes to --
13 THE COURT: I mean, I told you all along, as
14 far as I'm concerned, The Profit is irrelevant. It
15 still is as far as I'm concerned. There isn't a soul
16 that's going to persuade me otherwise. This is all
17 sort of an effort in futility. I'm going to sustain
18 the objection simply because I think that would have
19 more relevance in Ms. Brooks' lawsuit, not his.
20 MR. MOXON: Well, it goes --
21 THE COURT: I understand, Counselor, what
22 you think. I've ruled. Move to your next question.
23 MR. WEINBERG: Your Honor, just for
24 consistency, could the same rule apply to objections
25 on the other side? So far Mr. Lirot and Mr. Dandar --
Page 217
1 THE COURT: I'm sorry, yes, to both sides.
2 MR. LIROT: My apology, your Honor.
3 THE COURT: All right.
4 MR. WEINBERG: Just can't control them.
5 BY MR. MOXON:
6 Q This lawsuit seeks treble damages against
7 Ms. Brooks?
8 A To tell you the truth, I do not recall.
9 Q You haven't read the complaint?
10 A I have, but I do not recall.
11 Q It seeks punitive damages against you too,
12 doesn't it?
13 MR. DANDAR: Are we just going to continue
14 talking about this irrelevant case?
15 THE COURT: Not if you keep objecting.
16 MR. DANDAR: I'll keep objecting.
17 THE COURT: Sustained.
18 BY MR. MOXON:
19 Q You hired Mr. Lirot to send a cease and desist
20 letter to Robert Minton, didn't you?
21 MR. DANDAR: Same objection.
22 THE COURT: I'll allow that.
23 A Yes.
24 BY MR. MOXON:
25 Q And you were using money that was provided by
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1 Mr. Minton to Courage Productions to pay Mr. Lirot to
2 threaten Mr. Minton?
3 A That's company private information.
4 THE COURT: And besides that, that's
5 irrelevant. That sounds like you're trying to work up
6 some information in my courtroom about some later
7 motion that you might want to file against Mr. Lirot.
8 We're not going to have it. Get onto something
9 relevant about this.
10 BY MR. MOXON:
11 Q Okay. You had a deal with Mr. Minton to fund
12 this case, correct? It was reduced to a contract?
13 A Fund the case?
14 Q Fund the law -- fund the film.
15 A Film, yes.
16 Q The first check you got on that, do you remember
17 how much it was?
18 A No.
19 Q Do you remember what month it was?
20 A February of 2000.
21 Q That was in the amount of $157,000 -- $157,190,
22 correct?
23 A I don't know. I don't recall.
24 Q Let me show you this, if I may, to refresh your
25 recollection.
Page 219
1 MR. DANDAR: If the Court wants to know, the
2 Courage Production lawsuit against Ms. Brooks has been
3 settled amicably. And I wanted to bring it to your
4 attention sooner, but -- I should have, but I didn't.
5 I apologize, but just to let you know that.
6 THE COURT: All right.
7 MR. MOXON: We'll mark as next exhibit in
8 order -- which is?
9 THE CLERK: 176.
10 THE COURT: What do I care about going
11 through all these checks Mr. Minton gave him?
12 MR. MOXON: Well, there are only several
13 checks, your Honor. I only have --
14 THE COURT: Why do I care? What is of
15 interest here to me about business dealings between
16 the two of them? What was the purpose here? And they
17 each have said, as oftentimes people do in this case,
18 different things.
19 MR. DANDAR: What's interesting and maybe is
20 relevant to our allegations of extortion and collusion
21 is that Mr. Minton turned over these checks to the
22 Church of Scientology, breaching his fiduciary
23 relationship with Mr. Alexander.
24 MR. MOXON: It also clearly goes to the
25 issue of bias as to the receipt of money by this -- by
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1 this witness. This witness, who is now testifying on
2 behalf of Mr. Dandar, has received a lot of money.
3 He -- he did this. He created this film, the purpose
4 of which we say was to --
5 THE COURT: Bias needs to be shown in this
6 lawsuit, not bias against Mr. Minton or some other
7 lawsuit, but bias in this lawsuit.
8 BY MR. MOXON:
9 Q Well, you filed an affidavit for Mr. Dandar in
10 this lawsuit, didn't you?
11 A Yes.
12 Q In fact, you were identified at one point as an
13 expert witness in this lawsuit, correct?
14 A I knew I was a witness. I didn't know I was an
15 expert witness.
16 Q Did Mr. Dandar tell you he had withdrawn you as a
17 witness?
18 A Yes.
19 Q Okay. And the affidavit that you signed for
20 Mr. Dandar was signed just a few weeks before you received
21 this check for $157,000, wasn't it?
22 A I don't recall when it was signed.
23 Q Do you remember in January of the year 2000 you
24 went to Mr. Dandar's office and an affidavit was drafted
25 and signed and notarized there?
Page 221
1 A I remember going to Mr. Dandar's office, and I
2 know it had to be before April because that's when you
3 deposed me on the issue, but I don't really recall what
4 time it was, no, what month.
5 MR. MOXON: We'll mark as next in order an
6 affidavit of Peter Alexander dated 14 January 2000.
7 What number is that?
8 THE CLERK: 177.
9 MR. DANDAR: 177?
10 MR. MOXON: M'hum (affirmative).
11 MR. DANDAR: Thank you.
12 BY MR. MOXON:
13 Q Does it refresh your recollection that you
14 received the check approximately three weeks after you
15 signed this affidavit for Mr. Dandar?
16 A Looks like it.
17 Q Okay.
18 THE COURT: Where is the check? I'm sorry.
19 THE WITNESS: It's here, ma'am.
20 MR. MOXON: I'm sorry, your Honor.
21 THE COURT: Okay. Are you going to put that
22 in evidence?
23 MR. MOXON: Yes, your Honor. It's No. 176.
24 Excuse me.
25 THE COURT: Well, now, you've got another
Page 222
1 one on the top of it that says to Jesse Prince.
2 What's that doing on this piece of paper?
3 MR. MOXON: Oh, it was just pointed out to
4 me I forgot to mention --
5 THE COURT: Counselor, I understand it might
6 be more important to you that -- something that
7 Mr. Shaw says, but when I ask you a question in this
8 courtroom, I get to be answered first. What is this
9 check to Mr. Prince doing on top of this that you just
10 introduced into evidence?
11 MR. MOXON: This was a check that was
12 received in discovery in this case from the bank
13 account.
14 THE COURT: Well, that's hardly an answer.
15 Based on -- you don't get