Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida
Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500
Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500
1
1 IN THE CIRCUIT COURT FOR PINELLAS COUNTY, FLORIDA
CASE NO. 00-5682-CI-11
2
3
4
DELL LIEBREICH, as Personal
5 Representative of the ESTATE OF
LISA McPHERSON,
6
7 Plaintiff,
8 vs. VOLUME 1 of 1
9 CHURCH OF SCIENTOLOGY FLAG
SERVICE ORGANIZATION, JANIS
10 JOHNSON, ALAIN KARTUZINSKI
and DAVID HOUGHTON, D.D.S.,
11
Defendants.
12
_______________________________________/
13
14
15 PROCEEDINGS: Defendants' Omnibus Motion for
Terminating Sanctions and Other Relief.
16
CONTENTS: Testimony of Teresa Summers.
17
DATE: June 10, 2002. Afternoon Session.
18
PLACE: Courtroom B, Judicial Building
19 St. Petersburg, Florida.
20 BEFORE: Honorable Susan F. Schaeffer,
Circuit Judge.
21
REPORTED BY: Lynne J. Ide, RMR.
22 Deputy Official Court Reporter,
Sixth Judicial Circuit of Florida.
23
24
25
2
1 APPEARANCES:
2
MR. KENNAN G. DANDAR
3 DANDAR & DANDAR
5340 West Kennedy Blvd., Suite 201
4 Tampa, FL 33602
Attorney for Plaintiff.
5
6 MR. LUKE CHARLES LIROT
LUKE CHARLES LIROT, PA
7 112 N East Street, Street, Suite B
Tampa, FL 33602-4108
8 Attorney for Plaintiff
9
MR. KENDRICK MOXON
10 MOXON & KOBRIN
1100 Cleveland Street, Suite 900
11 Clearwater, FL 33755
Attorney for Church of Scientology Flag Service
12 Organization.
13
MR. LEE FUGATE
14 ZUCKERMAN, SPAEDER
101 E. Kennedy Blvd, Suite 1200
15 Tampa, FL 33602-5147
Attorney for Church of Scientology Flag Service
16 Organization.
17
MR. ERIC M. LIEBERMAN
18 RABINOWITZ, BOUDIN, STANDARD
740 Broadway at Astor Place
19 New York, NY 10003-9518
Attorney for Church of Scientology Flag Service
20 Organization.
21
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23
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25
3
1 APPEARANCES: (Continued)
2
MR. BRUCE HOWIE
3 5720 Central Avenue
St. Petersburg, Florida.
4 Attorney for Robert Minton.
5
6 ___________________________________
7
8
9 INDEX TO TESTIMONY OF TERESA SUMMERS
10 Direct Examination - by Mr. Dandar 4
Cross-Examination - by Mr. Moxon 119
11 Redirect Examination - by Mr. Dandar 184
Recross-Examination by Mr. Moxon 188
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1 THE COURT: Okay, Mr. Dandar, did your witness
2 arrive?
3 MR. DANDAR: Yes, she did.
4 THE COURT: You may call your next witness.
5 MR. DANDAR: The plaintiff calls Teresa
6 Summers.
7 THE BAILIFF: Ms. Summers, would you step up
8 here, stand here, face the judge, raise your right
9 hand.
10 (Oath administered to the witness by the
11 Court.)
12 THE WITNESS: Yes.
13 THE BAILIFF: Please be seated in the witness
14 stand. Watch your step. Speak in a loud, clear
15 voice for the Court.
16 Your Honor, the witness is sworn and seated.
17 THE COURT: Thank you. You may proceed.
18 ____________________________________
19 TERESA SUMMERS,
20 the witness herein, being first duly sworn, was examined
21 and testified as follows:
22 DIRECT EXAMINATION
23 BY MR. DANDAR:
24 Q Please state your name and spell your last name.
25 A Teresa Summers. Last name is S-U-M-M-E-R-S.
5
1 Q And are you a resident of Pinellas County?
2 A Yes.
3 Q How long have you lived in Pinellas County?
4 A Six years.
5 Q Okay. And what is the extent of your formal
6 education?
7 A High school.
8 Q Okay. When did you become a member of the Church
9 of Scientology?
10 A In, Mmm, 1979 or '80.
11 Q Okay. And where was that at?
12 A In Cincinnati, Ohio.
13 Q Okay. And how long did you remain a member of the
14 Church of Scientology?
15 A Until 1999.
16 Q Okay. In that twenty years, were you a member of
17 the Sea Org?
18 A Yes, I was.
19 Q Okay. What was your highest rank?
20 A Post. Highest post --
21 Q Okay.
22 A -- would be commanding officer of the Flag Land
23 Base. B-A-S-E.
24 Q Where is that located?
25 A Clearwater.
6
1 Q Okay.
2 THE COURT: What did you say, commanding
3 officer?
4 THE WITNESS: Right.
5 BY MR. DANDAR:
6 Q And did you have a rank in the Sea Org?
7 A Right. But my rank was Petty Officer 3.
8 Q Okay.
9 THE COURT: Okay, already I'm lost. Commanding
10 officer is some title --
11 THE WITNESS: It was a job. It wasn't really a
12 title. That was the job description.
13 THE COURT: Okay.
14 THE WITNESS: Okay?
15 THE COURT: I got you.
16 THE WITNESS: Okay.
17 BY MR. DANDAR:
18 Q And as the commanding officer of the Flag Land
19 Base in Clearwater, what did you do?
20 A What I did -- Mmm, I basically acted as a
21 coordinating point for programs that were sent in for the
22 lower orgs, which would be the FSO and Flag crew. Honestly,
23 I wasn't the commanding officer for very long. I was
24 temporarily the commanding officer. The rest of my time I
25 was a programs officer. But it was -- it was sort of an
7
1 administrative coordination post.
2 Q Okay. Programs for the lower orgs, you said Flag
3 Service Organization?
4 A Right.
5 Q The defendant was a lower org than Land Base?
6 A Right.
7 Q What kind of programs?
8 A A lot of programs -- what we were running mostly
9 at that time were programs that were going into the
10 renovations. There was another organization called Sipro.
11 Q How do you spell that?
12 A S-I-P-R-O.
13 Q What does that stand for?
14 A I don't know. They were doing a lot of
15 renovations, all of the renovations, at the Ft. Harrison.
16 And we were getting programs and directions in from Int,
17 basically, and running -- spending a lot of time over there.
18 I spent a lot of time with the commanding officer in the
19 beginning, making sure everything was done, just
20 coordinating everything, making sure that targets on the
21 programs -- like targets are steps on a program, making sure
22 they were done. There were some programs that went into the
23 technical divisions. Does that make sense?
24 THE COURT: You all have to keep your voices
25 down.
8
1 MR. DANDAR: Is your microphone on? Maybe that
2 will help.
3 THE WITNESS: I don't know.
4 THE COURT: No. I can hear fine.
5 MR. DANDAR: I can't. I'm -- I have to follow
6 up with my questions.
7 MR. MOXON: I'm sorry, your Honor, I just want
8 to get a time frame for this.
9 BY MR. DANDAR:
10 Q Well, go ahead. Give us a time frame.
11 A It was in '86 and '87.
12 Q What did you do after '87?
13 A You mean in the -- just generally?
14 Q At Flag Land Base.
15 A I left after '87.
16 Q Where did you go?
17 A I went to North Carolina.
18 Q Were you still in the Scientology?
19 A I was still in Scientology. I was not in Sea Org.
20 Q Okay. And when was the last time you were in Sea
21 Org?
22 A That was the only time I was in the Sea Org.
23 Q So, what, did you become a public Scientologist?
24 A Right.
25 THE COURT: When did you become a member of the
9
1 Sea Org?
2 THE WITNESS: In '86 when I joined at Flag,
3 that is when I became a member of the Sea Org.
4 THE COURT: You have been a member of the
5 Church since 1979 --
6 THE WITNESS: Right.
7 THE COURT: -- and '80, but you didn't become a
8 member of the Sea Org until 1986?
9 THE WITNESS: Right. Right.
10 BY MR. DANDAR:
11 Q So '86 to '88, am I right?
12 A No. I think '87.
13 Q So was that a year?
14 A About a year and a half.
15 Q All right. So before and after that, you
16 remained -- you were a public member of the Church?
17 A Right.
18 Q Okay. Now, you said -- you mentioned something
19 about getting the programs into Flag Land Base from Int?
20 A Right.
21 Q Is that I-N-T?
22 A Right.
23 Q What does that mean?
24 A That means I-N-T, international management.
25 Q Where are they located?
10
1 A Los Angeles.
2 Q And that is another Scientology entity?
3 A Yes.
4 Q Okay.
5 A And, also, we were running programs from another
6 organization called the Flag Command Bureau, which was also
7 in Los Angeles. We also got programs from them, as well.
8 They were also some kind of coordinating organization.
9 Q All right. And when you were receiving these
10 programs from Int Management LA, do you know what, if any,
11 position David Miscavige would have had at Int Management or
12 at Int?
13 A Right. You know, I just think of him as the head.
14 I think he's the COB, chairman of the board. Honestly, when
15 I think of him, he's just the head -- he's the head of the
16 Church. He has different posts and different name titles,
17 but I know he's chairman of the board.
18 He's also like top-ranking Sea Org member. I
19 don't know if that has a specific name or title, but --
20 Q All right. Okay. And when you lived in
21 Clearwater, did you live in housing for staff?
22 A Yes.
23 Q And was the -- is there -- do you have any
24 knowledge of whether or not staffing housing in Clearwater
25 had any insect problems?
11
1 A Yes, they did.
2 Q What kind?
3 A Roaches.
4 Q Does it matter which staff housing complex you
5 were in? Or is there only one particular one that had roach
6 problems?
7 A No. It was roach problems in different buildings.
8 It was a matter of complaint that had to be dealt with.
9 Q Okay. Now, while you lived --
10 THE COURT: I'll have to exclude some of you if
11 you -- you can't talk while this witness is on here
12 and disrupt counsel and disrupt the Court.
13 Go ahead.
14 BY MR. DANDAR:
15 Q Within your Scientology staff experience, were you
16 aware of policies of the Church of Scientology if someone
17 had become psychotic?
18 A Yes. I was aware of some of them. Yes.
19 Q Which ones were you aware of?
20 A Mmm, I was aware -- there is a Flag order that
21 talks about psychotics not being -- that you're not allowed
22 to keep them at the Ft. Harrison Hotel. So I was aware of
23 that.
24 And I was aware of just the basic Scientology
25 teaching, which is on courses that you take where they
12
1 discuss treatment of psychotics.
2 So I think that is about it really.
3 Q Okay. The Flag order that you mentioned,
4 psychotics cannot be kept at the Ft. Harrison Hotel --
5 A Right.
6 Q -- do you know then where psychotics could be
7 kept?
8 A At that time?
9 Q Yes.
10 A I did not.
11 Q Okay. Do you know any Scientology policies that
12 require reporting up lines if a member becomes psychotic?
13 A Yes.
14 Q And what is your understanding of that policy?
15 A That -- that if any member notices someone
16 behaving in a Type III manner, it needs to be reported to
17 RTC.
18 Q RTC is where?
19 A Physically located in California. I don't know if
20 it's Los Angeles, but it's in California.
21 Q Okay.
22 A I forget what it's called.
23 Q And do you have an understanding of whether or
24 not, after reporting up lines to RTC, RTC would then become
25 involved with that person?
13
1 A Mmm, they would become involved to the extent of
2 like having reports made and following the progress and that
3 sort of thing, you know.
4 Q Okay. Do you know if there is any position
5 outside of the local Clearwater Flag, FSO, Flag Land Base,
6 that gets reports if someone is red flagged?
7 A Well --
8 THE COURT: What is the term?
9 MR. DANDAR: Red flagged.
10 THE WITNESS: Red tagged.
11 THE COURT: Well, that doesn't mean anything to
12 me, either.
13 MR. MOXON: I object to relevance, your Honor.
14 THE COURT: I don't know if it is relevant or
15 not. I don't know what it is. So let's hear what
16 it is.
17 BY MR. DANDAR:
18 Q Do you know what red tagged means?
19 A Yes, red tagged is when someone has an auditing
20 session. And if they do not do well, they don't have what
21 is called a floating needle at the end of the session, they
22 are not doing well, they are not happy, they are red tagged,
23 which is a note that is put on that PC, preclear. It has to
24 be taken care of within 24 or 48 hours to where they are,
25 you know, feeling good, their needle is floating and they
14
1 are happy about the session.
2 MR. MOXON: I do object to relevance then, your
3 Honor, if this is the basis. Move to strike. But I
4 object --
5 THE COURT: Well, I think you may be right but
6 I need to see where this is going because I still
7 don't know where you are going with it.
8 BY MR. DANDAR:
9 Q Have you reviewed any of the records of Lisa
10 McPherson?
11 A Yes.
12 Q Okay. Did you see any red tags on Lisa McPherson?
13 A Yes.
14 Q And what particular things did you see there?
15 MR. MOXON: Well, I do object, your Honor.
16 Apparently she's talking about having to review Lisa
17 McPherson's PC folders.
18 THE WITNESS: No. No. It was not in Lisa's PC
19 folders.
20 BY MR. DANDAR:
21 Q Okay. Where did you see it?
22 THE COURT: Overruled.
23 A Clearwater -- oops, sorry.
24 THE COURT: Go ahead.
25 A On the Clearwater Police Department investigative
15
1 disk. There is a red tag in there. There is a copy of a
2 little sheet of paper stapled to her folder that said "Lisa
3 McPherson red tag." And it had the date, which I believe
4 was September of '95.
5 BY MR. DANDAR:
6 Q Okay, do you know if that was before or after she
7 tested clear?
8 A No, I don't know.
9 Q Now, who gets report of that red tag?
10 A All -- all reports -- every Thursday at Flag --
11 every Thursday at two, all stats are collected. That is a
12 stat. That actually detracts from a stat.
13 Q Detracts?
14 A Yes. If it is not handled, the whole unit can
15 lose their stats for a week and they all go into lower
16 conditions. They have to be taken care of. But -- but, as
17 a rule, at Flag, reports -- Flag reports all of its stats
18 from FSO. And Flag crew, at the time I was there, we did
19 all of them and sent them up to management every Thursday at
20 two. So they get all of the stats, all those kind of
21 reports.
22 Q How important is it to staff at Flag concerning
23 stats?
24 A Well, it is very important.
25 Q Explain that.
16
1 A When you are on staff, you are not paid really
2 very much at all. You are living very minimally. And if
3 the stats are down, that minimal lifestyle can even go
4 lower.
5 I know when I was there FSO --
6 MR. MOXON: Objection. Relevance, your Honor.
7 I don't know what this possibly has to do with any
8 of the issues that are presented here in our
9 motions. She's talking about, you know, her -- I
10 guess how well she was living as a staff member
11 during 1986.
12 MR. DANDAR: It is going to be tied in --
13 THE COURT: I'll overruled it for now. Go
14 ahead.
15 BY MR. DANDAR:
16 Q Go ahead.
17 A All right. If -- if the stats go down, basically,
18 then people are put into lower conditions and you can lose
19 privileges. You can lose time off. You can lose time with
20 your children, whereas you only have a couple hours a day
21 with your child anyway. You know, you have very few
22 privileges. And you'll lose them. You can lose pay. So
23 it's really -- it's an important thing.
24 And -- and management will do missions. If -- if
25 Flag stats are down for several weeks in a row, they call it
17
1 a trend, if they are trending, like an emergency trend would
2 be very bad, they can send missions to come in. And it is
3 very frightening. They can take people to post, put people
4 into lowers, make them all eat rice and beans, and keep them
5 working hours and hours, people -- it just exhausts them.
6 It is very tenuous and difficult --
7 Q Int -- I talked over you. I'm sorry, let's make
8 sure the record is clear. Int in California is separate and
9 distinct, at least on paper, from the corporation known as
10 Church of Scientology Flag Service Organization, Inc.?
11 A Yes.
12 Q Okay.
13 A They are distinct.
14 Q But they can come in and remove people off their
15 post at Flag?
16 A Yes.
17 Q Now, there was some mention in an objection here
18 about you being on staff in '86, '87. Do you know if there
19 is any policies -- in your 20 years' experience as a member
20 of the Church of Scientology, getting out in '99, if there
21 is any policies that say that the writings of Mr. Hubbard
22 cannot be altered or changed after his death?
23 A Yes.
24 Q What is that?
25 A Well, there is more than one. I think that --
18
1 Mmm, the one that is most well known to Scientologists would
2 be Keeping Scientology Working, KSW 1.
3 And that policy talks about basically that it's
4 keeping the tech exactly as written, wrote, never changing
5 it, always applying it exactly. And, in fact, I believe in
6 that policy Hubbard talks about how he had -- Mmm, had tried
7 to take advice from other people and work with other people
8 on the tech, but their advice always was just -- just
9 resulted in, you know, nothing usable, it was no good.
10 So -- so his solution was everything must come
11 from him, it's only him who comes up with the correct
12 policies, so we always have to -- in technology, always have
13 to apply it exactly.
14 Q Now, in addition to Int Management reporting
15 psychotics as PTS/SP Type III, do you know any policies
16 within your experience you have to report psychotic breaks
17 or PTS Type III breaks -- I think you already said that?
18 A I already said that.
19 Q Do you know why you need to report psychotics to
20 RTC and Int Management?
21 A Do I know now? Or at the time?
22 Q Did you know in your 20 years?
23 A Mmm, you know, I have to delineate here because
24 there were things that I know now that in all that time I
25 didn't know.
19
1 Q Okay.
2 A And that may be one of them. You know, when I was
3 in, honestly, I wasn't aware of so many people that were
4 having psychotic breaks --
5 Q Okay.
6 A -- you know. You don't hear about it. You are
7 not even allowed to talk about people who are doing poorly
8 on auditing. You can't do that so you don't know. It is
9 very kept quiet, you know. So I knew it as sort of a
10 theoretical thing.
11 If someone is crazy, yes, you would report it.
12 Why? You know, then at the time I would think so they could
13 be handled, whatever way that would be, so that whoever --
14 whatever, that they could be handled, basically, you know.
15 It was a little bit different at Flag because --
16 Q What is different at Flag?
17 A At Flag you would have the whole PR thing
18 happening, as well.
19 Q Well, explain that PR thing at Flag.
20 A At Flag, because -- because Clearwater is a very
21 important place for Scientology. It's -- Mmm, it's supposed
22 to be the first Scientology city, and Scientology works very
23 hard and has to kind of smooth the way and make it okay for
24 them to be there. They do what is called safe pointing
25 activities.
20
1 Q What is that?
2 A Safe pointing is when you go out into the
3 community and join groups. You join charitable groups or
4 the Chamber of Commerce, and you make -- you make
5 Scientology -- you know, give them an understanding of
6 Scientologists, so to speak, and make it okay for you to be
7 there, so that they're not as scrutinizing you, basically.
8 And so -- so you don't want anything happening in
9 Flag that will bring adverse attention onto the base at all.
10 At all.
11 Q What is the point -- what is the goal of this safe
12 pointing?
13 A Well, it's -- it's just a way to encroach into the
14 area, basically, because, you know, it's supposed to be
15 Scientology city. You make it safe to get in and you get --
16 it's just a way to get in and so that you can -- so that you
17 can -- I'm trying to think of -- you are just making it safe
18 so Scientology can operate in there without really being
19 scrutinized or looked at, you know, so the goals -- they can
20 reach the goals.
21 Q While you were in Scientology, was there a policy
22 on making Clearwater a Scientology city?
23 A You know, I don't know if there is a policy.
24 There is certainly a -- communications about it. It's been
25 talked about, I know.
21
1 I remember even when I was in Ohio once, they do
2 Flag tours where people from Flag will come out, go out to
3 the smaller orgs and talk about Flag.
4 And I know at one point I was told that that was
5 supposed to be the egress point for mankind because everyone
6 would come here and be audited, then leave their bodies
7 there. It was like an egress point.
8 Q Leave their bodies?
9 A It's very important. It is supposed to be a
10 Scientology city, the government run by Scientology. It's
11 just supposed to be the first Scientology city, period.
12 Q Okay. So -- so what is that safe pointing? What
13 does that have to do with handling the PR flap?
14 A Mmm, safe pointing -- well, actually, that would
15 help because when you are safe pointing you are becoming
16 known in the community and trusted in the community so if
17 something does happen, say you are a member of the Chamber
18 of Commerce and something happens at Flag and you hear them
19 twittering about it, you are right there, you can explain it
20 and make it safe, "That is all right, that is not really
21 what happened," or whatever. You know what I'm saying?
22 Q Okay.
23 A But they are sort of two separate things. But
24 they do kind of play together that way.
25 Q Okay. Would a public Scientologist -- in your 20
22
1 years of experience, would a public Scientologist walking
2 naked on a public street in front of police, fire/rescue,
3 EMS, going to Morton Plant Hospital, almost Baker Acted, be
4 a minor, or major, PR flap?
5 MR. MOXON: Objection. Calls for some sort of
6 opinion from the witness as to something that would
7 happen. Speculative --
8 THE COURT: I don't think that calls for an
9 opinion. I think, as a member, she can state what
10 she thinks, having been a member.
11 MR. MOXON: Of course this was 1986. So if
12 we're dealing with 1986 --
13 THE COURT: I don't know if it was in 1986.
14 Didn't she say she was still in in 1999?
15 MR. DANDAR: Yes.
16 A I'm sorry, so would that be a PR flap? Is that
17 what you asked me? Yes. Of course.
18 BY MR. DANDAR:
19 Q Now, would it be a PR flap of greater magnitude
20 because it is in Clearwater, involving Flag?
21 A Yes. It would.
22 Q And why is that?
23 A Well, because of what I have said.
24 Q All right.
25 A I don't mind saying it again, but I have explained
23
1 that.
2 Q No, I don't want you to repeat yourself.
3 A Okay.
4 Q But let me ask you this. You said you lived in
5 Pinellas County six years, right?
6 A Almost seven, actually. August, it will be seven
7 years.
8 Q So that seven years you were a member, public
9 member, of the Church of Scientology until 1999?
10 A Right. Right.
11 Q All right. Now, did you visit and continue to
12 take services or auditing or processing in Clearwater up
13 until 1999?
14 A Yes.
15 Q How does the Church of Scientology view what they
16 call the tech?
17 MR. MOXON: Objection. I object. This is
18 asking for generalities as to how the whole Church
19 views its -- the tech refers to the entirety of the
20 religious practice. That is a view -- moreover, it
21 is completely irrelevant --
22 THE COURT: It certainly is not irrelevant.
23 That much I know from what little I do know. And
24 obviously -- where she goes with this -- but I think
25 I know where he's going. Let's see if that is where
24
1 she's going. And if she's going there, it is not
2 irrelevant.
3 BY MR. DANDAR:
4 Q How is the tech viewed, in your 20 years'
5 experience, by Scientologists, both staff and public?
6 A Mmm, that is a little bit general for me. When
7 you say how is it viewed --
8 Q Right.
9 A I mean, it's viewed as -- it's viewed as something
10 that cannot be violated, that has to be applied exactly.
11 You know --
12 Q Okay, is the tech within the Church of Scientology
13 something that is fallible or infallible?
14 A Infallible. Right.
15 Q And within your 20 years as a member, does the --
16 if a person who is a member of the Church of Scientology
17 becomes psychotic, is that because the tech failed?
18 A No.
19 MR. MOXON: Objection. Calls for -- again, it
20 is opinion or speculation.
21 THE COURT: Well, it is hard to know who
22 exactly is asked that question if it were not for
23 someone either presently in the Church or not in the
24 Church. You certainly just couldn't ask your
25 run-of-the-mill psychiatrists. So --
25
1 MR. MOXON: Well, I, however, don't think it is
2 relevant to any of the issues presented here. I
3 guess Mr. Dandar is kind of getting into the case
4 itself. I mean, I don't believe this concerns
5 certainly the Paragraph 34, and doesn't concern --
6 THE COURT: Oh, I think it does indeed. If the
7 tech is infallible and the tech cannot be varied and
8 the tech for an introspection rundown is what it is,
9 and it can't be varied, this could very well be a
10 reason if, in fact, the doctors testifying for the
11 plaintiffs are correct, "Well, what happened." That
12 is exactly where he's going. So if you are wrong,
13 it is very relevant to this issue.
14 BY MR. DANDAR:
15 Q What was my question?
16 A I don't know?
17
18 THE REPORTER: "Question: And within your 20
19 years as a member, does the -- if a person who is a
20 member of the Church of Scientology becomes
21 psychotic, is that because the tech failed?
22 "Answer: No."
23 BY MR. DANDAR:
24 Q What is it from?
25 A Mmm --
26
1 THE COURT: If you know. If he asks you
2 something that you really don't know, you need to
3 say you don't know.
4 THE WITNESS: Oh, I will.
5 MR. DANDAR: Absolutely.
6 A Well, it's not usually just one thing. Generally,
7 it is a failure on the part of the PC somehow.
8 BY MR. DANDAR:
9 Q Who is the PC?
10 A The person receiving the auditing.
11 Q Okay.
12 A Now, okay, I need to correct that. Sometimes they
13 will say, "Oh, we made a mistake with the processing," but
14 it is not that the tech failed. It's that it wasn't applied
15 properly. So you may have to go to review. You may have to
16 go to ethics. You know, if it is just all botched up and
17 they don't know -- you know, they just don't know why,
18 they'll send you to ethics.
19 It's you. You know, it's generally your -- you
20 are always responsible for your own condition, period. That
21 is what -- that is what is stated. That is what you learn
22 again and again, no matter what your condition is.
23 Q What happens if you blame the tech?
24 A Well, it wouldn't be a good idea.
25 Q Why?
27
1 A You would certainly go to ethics for that because
2 that is a wrong viewpoint.
3 Q Is ethics a form of punishment?
4 A You know, it's not described as a form of
5 punishment, but it -- it kind of practices as a form of
6 punishment, if that makes sense, you know.
7 Q Is that where the lower conditions are?
8 A Yes.
9 Q Like treason?
10 A Yes, envy, liability. Those are lower conditions.
11 Q Is that what happens also when staff members stats
12 are down?
13 MR. MOXON: Objection.
14 A Yes.
15 MR. MOXON: Again, I don't see how this could
16 possibly be relevant to any of the issues in this
17 case.
18 MR. DANDAR: I guarantee I'm going to make this
19 all relevant to Paragraph 34.
20 THE COURT: Okay. I'm going to overrule your
21 objection.
22 BY MR. DANDAR:
23 Q Now, in PR flaps, who gets involved to try to deal
24 or handle PR flaps here in Clearwater?
25 A OSA and -- OSA pretty much handles the PR flaps.
28
1 Q Why is that?
2 A Why is that?
3 Q Yes.
4 A Mmm, I don't know why. I think --
5 Q Okay.
6 A It's part of their -- they are the legal and --
7 the captain -- the FSO is so intent on delivering, you know,
8 that anything that goes to legal, even someone requesting
9 money back goes immediately to OSA, it becomes legal, it
10 becomes a PR thing and they handle that.
11 Q Where does the Flag Service Organization, FSO,
12 rank in the world of Scientologists as their ability to
13 properly apply the tech?
14 A It's the top. It is called the mecca of technical
15 perfection.
16 Q Is that why you are living in Clearwater?
17 A Yes, actually, that is how I originally moved here
18 was to -- to be closer to the Flag.
19 Q Why did you leave Scientology?
20 A Well, Mmm, it was many -- it was years, really, of
21 many things sort of building up. Mmm, and then when I --
22 you know, I finally -- it took me years to make it to Flag
23 as a PC, as a public, because it is hugely expensive and
24 it's a great goal to get there, and I had invested a lot of
25 money.
29
1 And when I got there, Mmm, it was so
2 disappointing. My auditing was not going well. And just
3 what I observed of the OTs around me --
4 MR. MOXON: Objection. Relevance, your Honor.
5 THE COURT: I don't know what the relevance --
6 I don't even know what an OT is, so --
7 BY MR. DANDAR:
8 Q What is an OT?
9 THE COURT: I mean, I know what it is, I think,
10 it's --
11 THE WITNESS: It is operating thetan,
12 T-H-E-T-A-N.
13 MR. MOXON: I'm objecting, also, to Mr. Dandar
14 seeking to elicit from her what she's now talking
15 about is her own alleged religious experiences or
16 experiences in the Church as a parishioner, having,
17 again, nothing to do with any of the issues --
18 THE COURT: I think it might tend to go to her
19 bias or lack of bias. Therefore, it is relevant why
20 she left the Church, if she's talking about the
21 Church.
22 BY MR. DANDAR:
23 Q Why did you leave the Church?
24 A Additionally to what I have already said, I -- I
25 simply wasn't happy. It had been a long time, I spent years
30
1 in that church. And I would say it was a build-up of
2 observations over the years, my own personal -- I moved
3 nowhere in 20 years. And when I got there and put in pretty
4 much every penny I had, I was getting nowhere, you know.
5 And, you know, there was a lot of factors in that.
6 Q Are you -- do you classify yourself as an
7 anti-Scientologist?
8 A No. I don't.
9 Q How do you classify yourself?
10 A I -- I don't classify myself. I would say a
11 critic, but I try not to -- I mean, I'm not very vociferous.
12 I don't go on the Internet and post. I just don't do that.
13 Q Okay.
14 A You know. I -- wait -- I would like to say maybe
15 an advocate for rights, Scientologists who are being abused.
16 Maybe I would be some kind of advocate. That is all I would
17 classify myself.
18 Q In the 20 years as a member of the Church did you
19 ever hear of the introspection rundown?
20 A No. Not as a member, I didn't.
21 Q And did you ever test to clear?
22 A Yes.
23 Q How far up did you go?
24 A That was it.
25 Q Okay. In your experience in Scientology have you
31
1 ever heard the phrase "drop the body"?
2 A Sure.
3 Q What does that mean?
4 A To die, in the vernacular.
5 Q Okay. Are there processes or policies on -- in
6 Scientology on dropping the body?
7 A I was told that there were. Yes.
8 Q Did you study those?
9 A No.
10 Q Now, have you been inside the Ft. Harrison Hotel?
11 A Yes.
12 Q Is the Ft. Harrison Hotel, within your experience,
13 20 years, someplace that a member who is psychotic would
14 stay?
15 A No.
16 Q Now, you already talked about the Flag having an
17 order?
18 A Right. That is right.
19 Q But are there other reasons why a psychotic
20 wouldn't be inside the hotel?
21 A Yes.
22 Q Why?
23 A Because the Flag -- Ft. Harrison is for public.
24 Usually the wealthiest Scientology public are there getting
25 their services. And they are running around and milling
32
1 about, and you just wouldn't risk -- you would not risk
2 having someone who is crazy get in touch with -- with, you
3 know, these people. You just wouldn't do that.
4 Q People like John Travolta and Tom Cruise stay
5 there?
6 A I have seen John Travolta there. Tom Cruise may
7 not have stayed there. I don't know personally.
8 Q John Travolta?
9 A Yes, John Travolta. I saw Ann Archer there. But
10 not just wealthy stars. Very wealthy people from all over
11 the world. The wealthiest people from Scientology come
12 there.
13 Q The Super Power project in Clearwater for the
14 Church of Scientology, have you heard of that?
15 A Sure.
16 Q Is that that big building they are building on Ft.
17 Harrison?
18 A Right.
19 Q Right across from the hotel?
20 A Yes.
21 Q Now, within your 20 years of knowledge of the
22 Church of Scientology, what is the likelihood of Lisa
23 McPherson being kept in a cabana right next to the Super
24 Power office?
25 MR. MOXON: Objection, your Honor. Calls for
33
1 speculation.
2 THE COURT: I think that is true.
3 BY MR. DANDAR:
4 Q While you were a Flag staff Sea Org member, did
5 you ever have an experience where you heard of or knew
6 personally someone being processed to drop their body?
7 A Yes.
8 Q Tell us about it.
9 A Mmm, I was relatively new to staff. I believe it
10 was probably within the first six months of my being there.
11 Mmm, I was working in the office at -- the commanding
12 officer, who at that time was Laurie Englehart. I was one
13 of her lower officers.
14 And during that time I mentioned they were doing
15 big renovations at the Ft. Harrison. There was a problem
16 that she was addressing with the CO, commanding officer, of
17 CMO --
18 THE COURT: What does that mean, CMO?
19 THE WITNESS: Commodore's Messenger Org is what
20 that means.
21 BY MR. DANDAR:
22 Q Where is that commanding officer located?
23 A At the time, we were all located at 218, which we
24 call the WB building. On one side was our org, the FOB. On
25 the other side was the CMO.
34
1 Okay, so I believe there was a messenger who had
2 been being kept at the Ft. Harrison. And he was being
3 watched. And he couldn't take care of himself, and he was
4 being fed.
5 And it was explained to me that he was ill, had
6 some kind of -- I think they said muscle -- she said
7 muscle-wasting disease. And they needed to move him.
8 However, her policy -- you are really not supposed
9 to keep people around who are sick like this. You are not
10 there to take care of the ill. Basically, they are down
11 stats. And that is not what Flag is all about. They are
12 there to take the able people and make them more able.
13 So even the fact they were caring for him, they
14 weren't supposed to be doing that, but they needed to move
15 him because he was on -- whatever floor he was on needed
16 renovations.
17 MR. MOXON: I object. This is hearsay. She's
18 talking about what somebody else told her.
19 THE COURT: She was there. She said she was in
20 the office.
21 MR. MOXON: Not in the office where this was --
22 MR. DANDAR: She most definitely was.
23 MR. MOXON: He can ask if this is personal
24 knowledge.
25 THE COURT: You were in this office listening
35
1 to all this going on?
2 THE WITNESS: Yes.
3 THE COURT: Overruled.
4 BY MR. DANDAR:
5 Q And did you -- go ahead.
6 A I didn't hear all of it. I mean, what happened a
7 lot of times was my commanding officer was working with -- I
8 believe her name was Janet. And they would have meetings.
9 But then we would have our meetings, and she would
10 say, "Okay, here is what we're going to do, we're dealing
11 with this guy, he's sick," yeah, yeah, yeah, then just kind
12 of keep us --
13 MR. MOXON: I'm sorry, I do object to relevance
14 because --
15 THE COURT: Mr. Moxon, we're going to let her
16 get through this. So I want you to sit down and let
17 it go. This isn't a trial. There is a lot of
18 hearsay that comes into this hearing. I don't want
19 to you interrupt her anymore.
20 Continue.
21 BY MR. DANDAR:
22 Q Go ahead.
23 A Okay. So, Mmm, so the solution was -- the way it
24 was explained to me by Mr. Englehart was Alain Kartuzinski
25 was going in and audit him.
36
1 Q Alain Kartuzinski?
2 A Right.
3 THE COURT: Who told you this?
4 A The commanding officer, who was my immediate
5 senior.
6 THE COURT: Who was?
7 THE WITNESS: Laurie Englehart.
8 THE COURT: That is right. You referred to him
9 as Mr.
10 THE WITNESS: Right. That is right.
11 THE COURT: Because of the Navy.
12 THE WITNESS: Sorry. That is right.
13 THE COURT: Okay.
14 THE WITNESS: She was Mr. Englehart. That is
15 correct.
16 MR. DANDAR: I didn't even catch that.
17 BY MR. DANDAR:
18 Q But, all right, go ahead.
19 A Mmm, oh, so Alain was going to go in and audit him
20 to help him drop his body. And then he did. I mean, it
21 took about three days, I think, but three days later she
22 came back and said, okay, so it has been done and he's done.
23 And that was it, that is the last I heard.
24 Q So the renovations could go forward?
25 A Right, so the renovations could move forward.
37
1 THE COURT: I'm sorry, what -- drop the body
2 means to die, did you say?
3 THE WITNESS: Yes.
4 THE COURT: Who was this person?
5 THE WITNESS: Which person?
6 THE COURT: The person that was going to be
7 audited?
8 THE WITNESS: I -- I really don't remember. I
9 think his name was Mr. Christian -- Christianson. I
10 never saw him myself. I never saw him.
11 BY MR. DANDAR:
12 Q Now, the decision to have this person drop their
13 body with auditing by Mr. Kartuzinski, was that something,
14 as far as you know, just decided locally at the Clearwater
15 office?
16 A Mmm, well, no. It wasn't. It was coordinated up
17 lines, is what we would say.
18 Q Coordinated up lines?
19 A Yes.
20 Q Now, how did I first find out about you?
21 A Okay. When I left Scientology, which was in March
22 or April of '99, shortly after I left, I got on the
23 Internet. I'd actually watched a program on A & E a couple
24 months before I left. And on that program was a gentleman
25 talking about Scientology materials being on the Internet.
38
1 But, of course, being a Scientologist at that
2 time, I wouldn't look at them. I wouldn't look at them.
3 However, after I left, I decided to get on and look at them.
4 And once I got on the Internet, I was on the
5 Internet for about 15 hours a day for days. There was so
6 much information on Ron Hubbard, on Scientology, on people
7 who had gotten out, that it was just -- just floored me.
8 And then I found -- Mmm -- there was a site called
9 B-Org, O-R-G. And they had a message board or something
10 where former Scientologists were talking to each other.
11 And -- and I read it -- I didn't get on it -- but
12 at this time I was learning about Lisa, too, because when I
13 was at Flag, which I was right up until '99, you don't
14 know -- no one ever talked about Lisa, ever. So I was
15 really curious to really find out what happened to her. So
16 I was reading some of the stuff on the Internet.
17 And when I was reading -- reading about Lisa is
18 when I remembered about the guy -- this guy that I just told
19 you about that had -- you know, when I was there, who they
20 had audited to drop his body.
21 And I thought, well, it just seemed so similar,
22 you know. And I posted something on that. I just got on
23 that message board and I said, you know, I'm reading Lisa's
24 stuff and it reminds me of this incident when I was in the
25 Sea Org, and does anyone else remember this, I think is what
39
1 I said, is there anyone there in '86 and '87 that would
2 remember this?
3 And the only response I got to that was from a guy
4 who ran it who was in the Netherlands or somewhere. And he
5 said that you had some posts. He said the attorney for Lisa
6 McPherson's lawsuit has seen that post and wants to know if
7 he can contact you. And I said yes.
8 And then I believe you E-mailed me, I think,
9 shortly after that, and asked about the incident.
10 Q Okay. By the way, when you reviewed this
11 Clearwater Police Department CD of all of the evidence they
12 gathered on Lisa McPherson, did you come across anywhere
13 where Int Management, the California people, were involved
14 with Lisa McPherson?
15 A Uh-huh, I did.
16 Q What did you find?
17 A I found what is called --
18 MR. MOXON: Objection, your Honor. Lack of
19 foundation. She's saying things that she read on
20 the police department -- now she's testifying about
21 what documents are allegedly in the police
22 department on the police department CD of their
23 investigation. I don't know how she's competent to
24 discuss that.
25 MR. DANDAR: Well, I'll show Mr. Moxon Exhibit
40
1 91 which was produced by Flag, which is FSO -- their
2 Bates Number 00565 through 567. I'll have -- it is
3 Plaintiff's Exhibit 91. I'll hand it to the
4 witness. And Plaintiff's Exhibit 91 I will hand to
5 the Court.
6 THE COURT: Do you have one for the clerk?
7 MR. DANDAR: The clerk already marked it. I'm
8 ahead of you today.
9 BY MR. DANDAR:
10 Q So, Ms. Summers, look at Plaintiff's Exhibit 91.
11 THE COURT: I'm sorry, tell me what this is
12 again.
13 THE WITNESS: Do you want me to explain it to
14 you?
15 THE COURT: SO, that would be Flag Service
16 Organization?
17 MR. DANDAR: Inc. The defendant, yes.
18 THE COURT: This is their Bates number?
19 MR. DANDAR: Yes.
20 THE COURT: This was provided to you?
21 MR. DANDAR: This was provided to me. And it
22 was provided to the police and the prosecutor.
23 THE COURT: All right. Your objection is what?
24 MR. MOXON: So what this is is apparently
25 something from or by or concerning Lisa McPherson
41
1 that was produced in discovery. But how this
2 witness could possibly know anything about it, I
3 guess he's going to ask the witness her opinion with
4 respect to something that Lisa McPherson allegedly
5 wrote. So I --
6 THE COURT: Well, I don't know. But -- well, I
7 guess we'll have to see.
8 MR. MOXON: I don't know why we have this
9 witness discussing this document. Obviously, she
10 doesn't have anything to do with it.
11 THE COURT: Well, we won't know until we hear
12 so let's hear what she has to say.
13 BY MR. DANDAR:
14 Q Do you know what this document was when you
15 reviewed the police index?
16 A Uh-huh.
17 Q What is it?
18 A Yes. It's an OW write-up, it is called.
19 Q What is an OW write-up?
20 A Okay --
21 THE COURT: Tell me -- let me go back, if I
22 might, to when you said when you did the Clearwater
23 Police Department review, I don't know what you're
24 talking about.
25 THE WITNESS: It wasn't a review. When I
42
1 worked at the Lisa McPherson Trust, there were --
2 sometimes there wasn't anything to do. I mean, I
3 would be really, really busy, then I would have a
4 couple days.
5 And we had a CD that the Clearwater Police
6 Department sells that is all of the investigative
7 files of Lisa's investigation.
8 THE COURT: Kind of like public records?
9 THE WITNESS: Yes. It is the public records.
10 THE COURT: On a CD?
11 THE WITNESS: Yes. And I would just read
12 through it because I just wanted to know what
13 happened. I wanted to know what happened from --
14 I -- I wanted to know what they had done and what
15 they had said. I was just curious.
16 THE COURT: And you read this?
17 THE WITNESS: I found that out on there, right.
18 THE COURT: What is it you are going to ask her
19 about this?
20 BY MR. DANDAR:
21 Q Okay, did you read anything in this particular
22 three pages of her OW -- oh, tell the Court what an OW is.
23 A Oh, an OW write-up -- okay, it is O stands for
24 overt, O-V-E-R-T. W stands for withhold. And a write-up is
25 just writing as a write-up. And it is an action that you do
43
1 as part of an ethics, as part of -- it's hard for me to
2 phrase it not in Scientology terms. As part of a correcting
3 your ethics or -- or handling them.
4 So an overt is something that you have -- it's an
5 act of omission or commission that you have done that is not
6 pro-survival is what it is. And --
7 Q Could I be so bold as to say an overt is a sin?
8 A I mean, that would be comparable.
9 Q Okay.
10 A Yes.
11 Q Withhold, I don't understand that part.
12 A A withhold is when you committed the overt and you
13 have withheld the fact that you have committed it. So you
14 are sitting on it, sort of, and not telling, you know.
15 Q So you are not confessing your sins?
16 A Right, you have a withhold that someone needs to
17 know.
18 Q So part of Scientology process --
19 A Ethics.
20 Q -- of coming clean or confessing, I mean, I don't
21 want to put words in your mouth, but would be what the OW
22 write-up is?
23 A Yes, it is more than just coming clean and
24 confessing; it is to move yourself up into a condition where
25 you are doing better.
44
1 Q Okay.
2 A You are improving. You know, you are getting rid
3 of bad things, because the theory is, you know, if you are
4 not doing well, you will have overts, you must have done
5 something bad so you have to get them off.
6 Q So there are three pages here?
7 A There are three pages -- no, two.
8 Q No, there are three.
9 A Oh, okay.
10 Q I want to direct your attention to the third page
11 at the top, the second sentence.
12 A Well --
13 THE COURT: Where does this come from? I don't
14 understand what this is.
15 MR. DANDAR: This was produced by the defendant
16 to the police and to the plaintiff.
17 THE COURT: I -- I -- what I want to know is
18 this obviously appears to be something that Lisa
19 McPherson wrote or what have you. Where does it go?
20 THE WITNESS: Oh, it goes to her ethics.
21 Whoever is doing --
22 MR. MOXON: Well, allegedly, your Honor, this
23 is something she wrote at work.
24 THE WITNESS: Right, she was doing an --
25 MR. MOXON: AMC Publishing Company.
45
1 THE COURT: Actually, Mr. Moxon, you are not
2 under oath. So I'm asking where do these things go.
3 THE WITNESS: They go to an ethics folder that
4 they keep on you at the Church. And sometimes they
5 will go to your PC folder if you are actually on
6 auditing at that time. Say you are doing auditing
7 and it is not going well, so they bump you off to
8 get your ethics in is what it is called.
9 You may have to do a whole lot of these writing
10 up of overts. Then they would go back -- they would
11 go back, you would get an okay from your -- you
12 know, to go back. But they go to the ethics
13 officer, they go to the PC folder, you do okay, you
14 can go back on auditing, basically.
15 BY MR. DANDAR:
16 Q If this was done at AMC Publishing, her place of
17 employment -- you understand AMC Publishing is owned by
18 Bennetta Slaughter and David Slaughter, who are public
19 members of the Church of Scientology?
20 A Yes.
21 Q So even though it is a public -- it's -- it's a
22 private business, they would -- they were following the -- I
23 guess what is called the Hubbard tech?
24 A Yes. Right.
25 Q Okay. And then in this overt and withhold that
46
1 was produced by Flag at the Bates numbers that we talked
2 about, 566 to 567, this would also go from her employer to
3 her ethics file at the Church?
4 A Well, it must have because FSO had it.
5 MR. MOXON: Well, move to strike. Asking for
6 speculation, conclusion.
7 MR. DANDAR: Well, actually --
8 MR. MOXON: There is no evidence how this got
9 produced.
10 THE COURT: Apparently it came from your
11 client.
12 MR. MOXON: Yes, I know. But that doesn't
13 mean -- Mr. Dandar said this came from her ethics
14 file at church. That is pure speculation.
15 THE COURT: Let's just say we don't know where
16 it came from, but it came from the Church.
17 MR. DANDAR: I can be very specific, Judge. If
18 you will recall, the transcribed interview of my
19 client, Fannie McPherson -- Flag typed on their
20 Bates number "FDLE" because they said that is how
21 they know where it came from.
22 And this has "FSO," so by their own admission
23 this comes from the defendant, FSO. And I would
24 dare say Mr. Moxon knows that is where it comes
25 from.
47
1 MR. MOXON: Well, actual fact, your Honor, I
2 wasn't involved in the case at the time. But what I
3 was informed, at this time Mr. Dandar asked us to
4 get it from AMC, we got the AMC Publishing files and
5 those were produced as part of the Church
6 production.
7 THE COURT: Well, should it say AMC at the
8 bottom? I do recall these things are sort of
9 identified at the bottom.
10 MR. DANDAR: I have many things that say AMC
11 from the defendant.
12 THE COURT: Or FDLE.
13 MR. MOXON: I would be happy to straighten this
14 out later. But obviously there is no indication
15 here it came out of a Church file. It does indicate
16 it was produced by the Church, but --
17 THE COURT: How did you get this, Mr. Dandar?
18 Some request for production? Or what?
19 MR. DANDAR: It is in my office. But I also
20 found it much easier on the Clearwater Police
21 Department CD that was sold to me from the
22 Clearwater Police Department.
23 And these are the records produced by Flag to
24 the Clearwater Police Department. But I also have
25 the same set, because they claim -- or I should not
48
1 say claim, they state they gave me everything they
2 gave the police.
3 THE COURT: That pertained to Lisa McPherson?
4 MR. DANDAR: Yes.
5 MR. MOXON: Your Honor, I don't have personal
6 knowledge of this but I'll check the
7 representations. My understanding --
8 THE COURT: I'll take Mr. Dandar's
9 representations at this time.
10 Continue.
11 BY MR. DANDAR:
12 Q So could you please read out loud the first two
13 sentences that appear on Page 3 which Bates Number 567
14 starting with, "My friends --"
15 A It says, "My friends and --
16 THE COURT: Well, it doesn't really say "My."
17 THE WITNESS: I have to read the previous
18 sentence.
19 BY MR. DANDAR:
20 Q Okay. In fact, start on the next page or --
21 A I would like to start on a previous page.
22 Q Go ahead.
23 A Just the beginning, she's talking about -- here is
24 what she says.
25 "In February of '95 on Tuesday afternoon at 2:10
49
1 in my office at AMC --" she's talking about -- she
2 dramatized her case. If you read through it, okay, "Someone
3 came in, asked me what condition I was applying, my withhold
4 got missed, and I became enraged."
5 She kind of describes her mind-set. Then she goes
6 down further, "I went psycho. I pled my case on every
7 terminal," which means person, et cetera, et cetera.
8 Then she says, "I worried every single friend and
9 fellow staff member to death thinking I might not make it
10 because I was dramatizing death so hard. My friends were
11 left helpless to me. Int Management had to get involved to
12 sort me out, which took time away from their expansion or
13 helping someone who wasn't as able as I was.
14 "Every Comm line I was on was adversely affected
15 in some way due to my position as a stable terminal. It
16 destabilized anyone connected to me. My group was severely
17 damaged both spiritually and financially due to my actions.
18 We almost went down."
19 Q So she's saying Int Management had to get involved
20 to sort her out?
21 A That is what she says.
22 Q And this is in February of '95?
23 A That is what it says.
24 Q Now, when she's talking about feeling bad that she
25 left the -- let the group down --
50
1 A Right.
2 Q -- is that something that Scientologists are
3 taught in the courses they take?
4 A Yes.
5 Q What is that? I mean, what is that all about?
6 A Mmm, it goes back to that you are always
7 responsible for your own condition. And so -- so she had a
8 breakdown, and ultimately she was responsible for that. And
9 in the course of that, she created a problem.
10 There is policy in Scientology that says it is a
11 crime to create a problem. You don't create a problem, even
12 if it is because you are ill.
13 So she felt like she had created a problem for
14 herself, for her work, and for the Int Management. I mean,
15 that is a big problem she created and she was responsible
16 for that. Whether or not it was because she had a
17 breakdown, you know --
18 Q And she admits in February of '95 in here she went
19 psychotic?
20 A That is what she says.
21 MR. DANDAR: I move this into evidence.
22 MR. MOXON: I object.
23 THE COURT: Overruled.
24 MR. MOXON: No foundation.
25
51
1 BY MR. DANDAR:
2 Q Now --
3 MR. DANDAR: That is Exhibit 91.
4 BY MR. DANDAR:
5 Q -- so I put the word out somehow with this man in
6 Norway. Was that Operation Clambake?
7 A No.
8 THE COURT: Where is that? Where are you
9 reading from?
10 MR. DANDAR: I'm not.
11 THE COURT: Oh. We're done with this?
12 MR. DANDAR: We're done with that.
13 THE COURT: Oh. Okay.
14 BY MR. DANDAR:
15 Q And how did I get a hold of you?
16 A I -- you know what? I don't remember. I think
17 you E-mailed me is what you did.
18 Q So was this in '99?
19 A Yes, it was in '99. Right.
20 Q All right. And you came to my office. And I
21 interviewed you in March of '99?
22 A No, I think it was in August of '99.
23 Q Okay.
24 A Sorry.
25 Q So much for my memory. All right. And -- well,
52
1 let me stop, freeze frame that time.
2 Before you walked into the door of my office --
3 A Yes?
4 Q -- have you ever met Robert Minton?
5 A No.
6 Q Stacy Brooks?
7 A No.
8 Q Jesse Prince?
9 A No.
10 Q Okay. And sometime after that, to your surprise,
11 you were deposed?
12 A Sometime after I was with you?
13 Q Yes.
14 A Oh, yes. Right, I was deposed in June of 2000.
15 Q And my brother appeared representing --
16 A Yes, that is right.
17 Q -- you. And Mr. Moxon took your deposition?
18 A Yes, he did.
19 Q Now, freeze that moment in time, that position in
20 June of 2000. Had you met Mr. Minton?
21 A No.
22 Q Stacy Brooks?
23 A No.
24 Q Jesse Prince?
25 A No.
53
1 Q Had you been -- you were living in Clearwater,
2 weren't you?
3 A Yes.
4 Q Had you been to the Lisa McPherson Trust?
5 A No. Actually, I don't live in Clearwater. I live
6 in Dunedin.
7 Q Sorry.
8 A That is okay.
9 Q It is just a stone's throw.
10 A It is right there. But just to be correct.
11 Q Now, did I pay you to provide me the information
12 that you provided me before your deposition?
13 A No.
14 Q Did I pay you or promise you anything for coming
15 forward and letting me put you on my witness list?
16 A No.
17 Q Did anyone reward you in any way whatsoever for
18 being a witness in the Lisa McPherson wrongful death case?
19 A No.
20 Q How is it then that you came to meet anyone
21 associated with the Lisa McPherson Trust?
22 A Mmm, because real shortly after my deposition in
23 June -- Mmm -- Brian Haney, who I knew in Columbus who was
24 also a former Scientologist, I believe he was at your
25 office.
54
1 And you mentioned to him, "We just deposed a lady
2 a couple days ago who was from Ohio."
3 He said, "Who is it?"
4 You said, "Teresa Summers."
5 He said, "I know Teresa Summers."
6 So he called me. And at that time, you know, it's
7 difficult coming out of Scientology after 20 years. And I
8 was having -- I was suffering some depression. And I talked
9 to him about it.
10 And he said, "You know, you should call the
11 trust." Well, I did know about the trust at this time.
12 THE COURT: You did? Or didn't?
13 THE WITNESS: I did, because there were some
14 newspaper articles. And, actually, Ken talked to me
15 about them, but he didn't want me to go to them.
16 And I stayed away from them.
17 BY MR. DANDAR:
18 Q Wait. Why didn't I want you to go to the trust?
19 A Because you had explained to me how they were
20 trying to hook up the case with the trust and everything, so
21 I didn't -- I just said, "Well, that is all right, I don't
22 want to go there, anyway," because -- I'll tell you why. I
23 had seen them on that same A & E program I had seen and I
24 thought Bob Minton was crazy. They were talking about him
25 shooting guns, and I just wasn't impressed with Bob and
55
1 Stacy at that time. And I remember saying at that time I
2 have no interest in those people.
3 And it was probably about two days after we did
4 the 2000 depo that Brian said, "Why don't you go in there?"
5 I said, "I don't want to go in there."
6 He said, "Why don't you just write Jesse." He
7 knew Jesse. He was friends with Jesse. He really loves
8 Jesse. They are very close friends. He said, "Talk to
9 Jesse. Jesse can help you."
10 So I wrote a letter to Jesse and just introduced
11 myself, which is also interesting because he'd actually come
12 in on the 2000 deposition, halfway through, and I didn't
13 even recognize him, I didn't even know that was him. So I
14 think he already knew who I was. But I wrote him a letter.
15 Q Okay.
16 A Just sort of introducing myself.
17 MR. DANDAR: And I have that letter marked as
18 Plaintiff's Exhibit 93 with the envelope attached.
19 I'm going to hand the witness the clerk's copy. And
20 I'm going to hand the Court the Court's copy.
21 BY MR. DANDAR:
22 Q Could you read that, please?
23 A Okay. It says, "Dear Mr. Prince --
24 THE COURT: No, we don't want her to read the
25 whole thing out loud. Are you going to introduce it
56
1 into evidence?
2 MR. DANDAR: Yes. I move it into evidence.
3 THE COURT: Any objection?
4 MR. MOXON: No, your Honor.
5 THE COURT: What did you say?
6 MR. LIEBERMAN: He said no.
7 MR. DANDAR: Okay. It is in evidence.
8 BY MR. DANDAR:
9 Q And what was the response from anyone after you
10 sent Jesse Prince this letter?
11 What is the date of the letter?
12 A The letter is not dated.
13 Q I'll show you the original envelope.
14 A The envelope is there.
15 Q I'll hand the witness the original envelope. It
16 is probably easier to read.
17 A It is -- it says, Mmm, 21 June, 2000.
18 Q Okay.
19 A So I think my deposition was on the 13th of June,
20 if I recall, so it was a few days after that.
21 Q And what was the purpose of writing the letter?
22 A I kind of needed someone to talk to who could
23 share their experience -- you know, the experience of having
24 been in Scientology. You know, it's a rough time, you know.
25 Q Okay. So you sent the letter to Jesse Prince at
57
1 the Lisa McPherson Trust?
2 A Right.
3 Q Okay. And what was the response?
4 A Jesse called me.
5 Q And what?
6 A Well, he just talked to me, you know. And we --
7 we just talked, basically, and -- I talked to him a few
8 times, probably two or three times. He asked me to come in,
9 but I wouldn't go in. I wouldn't go in at first.
10 Q Why?
11 A Mmm, because I was aware that Scientology was
12 watching people who went in. There was testimony on the
13 Internet about being followed, being watched. And I didn't
14 want to go through that.
15 Q Okay.
16 A You know, I was leery.
17 Q Did there come a point in time when you changed
18 your thoughts about that and decided to go in?
19 A Yeah. And it wasn't -- it was probably within the
20 next couples months, I think. I think the first time I went
21 in was probably in August. And I did, I just went in to
22 visit and I met Stacy. I don't remember if I met her the
23 first time I went in there, but -- and I talked to Jesse and
24 I met Stacy, and that was it.
25 Then I went back two or three times -- they
58
1 explained to me what they were doing, you know, and that
2 sort of thing.
3 Q And did you have any conversations with Stacy
4 Brooks about me?
5 A Not that time, I don't remember.
6 Q Okay. So you just went in there to help -- get
7 help for yourself?
8 A Yes, initially.
9 Q Okay. And did it come to be that you became an
10 employee of the Lisa McPherson Trust?
11 A Yes.
12 Q How did that come about?
13 A It came about because -- excuse me -- I was trying
14 to get money back from the Church. I had money -- I had had
15 about $27,000 on account, which I asked back. And they gave
16 me that back really very quickly. But there was still other
17 moneys that I wanted to get back and I was being told, no, I
18 couldn't get it back.
19 And you actually said, "Well, why don't you
20 contact another attorney and he'll help you get it back."
21 I talked to that attorney. He said, "I'll help
22 you," but he was going to take a third of it.
23 So I said, "Forget it, I'm going to try to get it
24 back myself."
25 So I -- since I was getting nowhere writing them,
59
1 I wrote consumer protection agencies, because it is a
2 consumer practice. I mean, they're selling goods, they are
3 selling services, they are advertising, you know what I
4 mean. So I wrote and I just asked for help, basically, and
5 explained my situation.
6 MR. MOXON: Objection, your Honor. Relevance.
7 THE COURT: I'm going to allow it.
8 BY MR. DANDAR:
9 Q Okay. And did you finally get your money back?
10 A I got pretty much all of my money back. Yes.
11 Q Did there come a time when you went to work for
12 the trust?
13 A Yes.
14 Q Tell us about that. How did that come about?
15 A Well, I visited. Jesse was working with a lot of
16 people who were trying to get money back. And, Mmm, and I
17 told him -- you know, it must have been a couple months must
18 have gone by, I think it was September, when I went in.
19 I said, "You know what, here is what I'm doing,"
20 and I took one of the letters I had written to -- I don't
21 remember -- one of the consumer protection agencies. And I
22 showed it to him.
23 And he called Stacy out. And they said, "Oh, this
24 is a great idea. We never thought of doing this."
25 And they were working with a woman in Atlanta.
60
1 And at that time they asked -- asked me if I would just help
2 them a little, if I could volunteer and help them with some
3 of the people.
4 And I said, Mmm, "Well, I could help you on a
5 limited basis," because I'm a single mother and she wanted
6 me to basically volunteer. I said I couldn't do it. It was
7 like, I have to have an income.
8 They asked me two or three times to volunteer. I
9 said no.
10 Finally she asked me -- she came in and offered me
11 a job.
12 Q And was there any discussion about me at that
13 point?
14 A Mmm, not with Stacy. With Jesse, I did, talked
15 about you, during the time I was hired, right after I was
16 hired.
17 Q Was there any hesitation on your part to go work
18 there?
19 A On my part, there was.
20 Q Why?
21 A Because you had told -- explained to me -- you
22 basically said, "Are you interested in them?"
23 I said no.
24 You said, "Good. Stay away from them." You
25 didn't want me tangled up with them.
61
1 I said to Jesse, you know, "Ken is not going to be
2 real happy that I'm working here."
3 Jesse said, "Aww, who cares. We need you."
4 I'm sure he said something more than "who cares,"
5 but, you know --
6 Q What did you do at the Lisa McPherson Trust?
7 A I worked with people who were calling and writing
8 and E-mailing, mostly helping them get money back. That is
9 pretty much what I did.
10 Q You mean you didn't just sit around and get paid
11 waiting for this trial to happen so you could come in and
12 testify?
13 A No, I didn't.
14 Q You actually did work there?
15 A I worked.
16 Q Did you try to harass any of the witnesses on the
17 defendant's witness list?
18 A Of course not.
19 Q Did you ever picket?
20 A No.
21 Q Did you ever see me picket?
22 A No.
23 Q Did you ever see me come to the trust?
24 A Yes.
25 Q And how often would you see me there?
62
1 A Probably -- how long was I there? About a year?
2 Maybe four times, three or four times I saw you there.
3 Q All right. So as you sit here today, have I ever
4 paid you any money at all?
5 A No.
6 Q Has anyone ever paid you any money to provide
7 testimony?
8 A No.
9 Q Has anyone paid you any money to help me?
10 A No.
11 Q Was the employment at the Lisa McPherson Trust any
12 type of reward or inducement or benefit for being a witness
13 in this case?
14 A No.
15 Q You have been deposed how many times in the Lisa
16 McPherson case?
17 A I think three or four.
18 Q So would you counsel former Scientologists at the
19 Lisa McPherson Trust?
20 A Counsel them?
21 Q Yes. Talk to them?
22 A Yeah, we would talk. It was a support group. We
23 were not counselors, but it was support. And I would refer
24 them to other people and references. And I would help them
25 to take the steps to get money returned to them because many
63
1 of them wanted money returned to them.
2 Q Did you ever have an understanding that the
3 employees at the Lisa McPherson Trust were simply a stable
4 of witnesses for the estate of Lisa McPherson?
5 A No.
6 Q Outside of you and Jesse Prince, did you know of
7 anyone else that was a witness in the case?
8 A No. I was just thinking that. I think we were
9 the only ones that were a witness in Lisa's case. I mean,
10 Stacy maybe. I don't know. I think she was.
11 Q Did I have any involvement in the management of
12 the Lisa McPherson Trust?
13 A No.
14 Q Who managed the Lisa McPherson Trust?
15 A Mmm, Stacy and Bob. It was those two, I would
16 say.
17 Q Between Stacy and Bob Minton, who was actually in
18 control?
19 A Well, Bob was ultimately in control.
20 Q Okay. Do you recall a time when there were
21 anonymous people in Germany offering to send money to the
22 Lisa McPherson Trust?
23 A Yes.
24 Q Do you know if they required any conditions before
25 they would send in their money?
64
1 A Yes.
2 Q What was that?
3 A That we were a nonprofit.
4 Q Do you know if anyone at the Lisa McPherson Trust
5 told these anonymous German people that you were nonprofit?
6 A Yes.
7 Q Who was that?
8 A Stacy.
9 Q Was the Lisa McPherson Trust ever nonprofit?
10 A Apparently not.
11 Q Did you think it was?
12 A Yes. She told me that, as well. When I started
13 working there, I thought it was a nonprofit organization.
14 Q Did you ever get this anonymous money from Germany
15 from the people that required it to be a nonprofit?
16 A No.
17 Q Did you ever hear Stacy Brooks make any comments
18 about Ken Dandar in reference to the wrongful death case?
19 A Yes.
20 Q What did you hear?
21 A That -- Mmm -- you were an incompetent attorney,
22 and that you had allowed Scientology to use the Lisa
23 McPherson death case to pull Bob Minton into discovery so
24 that his finances -- so they could discover, you know,
25 information about his finances.
65
1 Q Did Stacy Brooks ever tell you about me following
2 any of her suggestions or orders or whatever concerning how
3 to run the wrongful death case?
4 A She -- she actually did the opposite. Because she
5 complained about you not doing what she wanted you to do.
6 And if you would listen to her, you know, she wouldn't be
7 having the problems she was having. So that is the only
8 thing I heard.
9 Q Did Stacy Brooks ever describe the relationship
10 between the Lisa McPherson Trust and the wrongful death
11 case?
12 A There was no relationship the way she described it
13 to me. They were separate entities and it was only
14 ScientologY who was connecting the whole thing out, you
15 know.
16 Q Did she ever use a -- I can't think of the word
17 right now -- an analogy to a certain animal?
18 A Yes. The gecko theory.
19 Q What was the gecko theory?
20 A Stacy explained this to me one day, that the
21 trust -- this was during when everything had blown up in
22 August and we were really worried about losing the whole
23 trust.
24 Q August of what year?
25 A I'm sorry. 2001.
66
1 Q Okay, last August?
2 A Yes. Right. And she was saying that the trust
3 was a gecko, and the case, the Lisa case, was the tail. And
4 the tail was causing a lot of problems so the gecko needed
5 to drop the tail so that it could move on and survive. And
6 that was her little gecko theory.
7 Q Did she ever explain to anyone else besides you --
8 A I don't know. I think when she told me, it was
9 just her and I.
10 Q So did there come a point in time when you, as one
11 of the -- well, were you an officer of the corporation?
12 A I was made vice-president in March or something of
13 that year.
14 Q Okay. 2001?
15 A Yeah.
16 Q Did there come a point in time when Stacy was
17 talking about the LMT not having enough money to pay its
18 employees?
19 A Oh, yes. Certainly.
20 Q When did that start?
21 A Well, I believe it started, as well, in March.
22 Q Okay.
23 A I honestly am not quite sure. It was a problem.
24 I think it was March or April of 2001 when -- when -- we got
25 paid late for the first time.
67
1 Q Do you know how the trust was able to fund money
2 to get people paid?
3 A It came from Bob. Stacy went to Bob and begged
4 it, basically, every month. Finally -- you know, it was
5 very odd because she would fly there and she would say,
6 "Okay, I'm going to come back with the money." And
7 sometimes she would, and sometimes she wouldn't, you know,
8 she would be staying.
9 She was always doing the same, like, "I'll be back
10 tomorrow," then she wouldn't come. "I'll be back tomorrow."
11 And this could go on for days.
12 Finally, she would arrive with a check, it would
13 be taken across the street to the bank, whatever it was,
14 Bank of America, and deposited, then we could write our
15 checks. Or she would give us our paychecks.
16 Q How did Stacy Brooks react to the depositions in
17 the Lisa McPherson case taken of her and the LMT?
18 A You are talking about in August of 2001. Well,
19 that was just a very -- it was crazed. She was just crazed.
20 Bob -- she and Bob -- the whole thing was a mess because she
21 went into that deposition and she testified about money that
22 had come over from Operation Clambake.
23 And after that Bob Minton was just furious,
24 absolutely furious; that he was yelling at her on the phone,
25 and she was in tears because he was -- and he was mad with
68
1 John Merrett saying how -- you know, how dare John Merrett
2 let her testify to that, she should have pled the Fifth, and
3 it was just a frantic time.
4 In fact, John Merrett and Bob Minton got into such
5 an argument that Merrett left. I think he quit. He said
6 like, "I'm not working for you anymore," and went back to
7 Jacksonville.
8 THE COURT: When was this?
9 THE WITNESS: I'm sorry, what?
10 THE COURT: When was this?
11 THE WITNESS: After August of 2001, after that
12 deposition where she testified about -- I can't
13 remember how much it was -- $500,000 or $600,000.
14 THE COURT: When you say August of 2001 --
15 THE WITNESS: Right?
16 THE COURT: -- was this right after the
17 deposition?
18 THE WITNESS: Oh, yeah.
19 THE COURT: When Ms. Brooks and Mr. Merrett
20 came back to the office?
21 THE WITNESS: Right.
22 THE COURT: And what was said?
23 THE WITNESS: Right.
24 THE COURT: How did he find out about it?
25 THE WITNESS: You know, I think it might have
69
1 been like the next day or something.
2 What was said about it?
3 THE COURT: Right.
4 THE WITNESS: First there was discussions on
5 the phone with Bob. Stacy was very nervous and
6 upset. And at that point we were -- we were kind of
7 friends. We were friends at that point.
8 And she would call me into her office and just
9 say, "Oh, you know, I messed up and I testified to
10 this. And Bob is just furious. And --" but it went
11 on and on.
12 You know, at times she was in the office with
13 the door closed with John Merrett on the phone with
14 Bob. And, of course, I don't know what they said
15 during that time.
16 But it was very -- it was a real upsetting
17 thing. It was a very upsetting -- it was just real
18 upsetting. It had the whole office in an uproar.
19 BY MR. DANDAR:
20 Q Did -- do you know of any plans that were made to
21 try to relieve this mistake they made by talking about money
22 from Operation Clambake in reference to contact with Dell
23 Liebreich?
24 A Yes. Yes, which was also around everything.
25 Right after that August deposition, things just really blew
70
1 up. She called me into her office again one day and she
2 told me -- she said, "I'm going to do something. I want to
3 do something. But if Bob finds out, he'll never speak to me
4 again. And I don't want to do it without telling him, but I
5 just can't tell him."
6 I said, "What is it?"
7 She said, "I'm going to call Dell myself and I'm
8 going to tell her to drop the case."
9 And I said, "Wow. You're going to do that?"
10 She said, "Bob will never talk to me again. He'll
11 never talk to me again."
12 And we discussed it a little bit. And she went on
13 and said, "Oh, I want to do this. I'm really afraid to do
14 this."
15 And -- and nothing -- I don't really -- I'm not
16 quite sure what happened at that time. I think she did
17 finally tell Bob, and he said, "No, you can't do that."
18 However, it was just a couple weeks later --
19 actually, it was the very day that I left in September, so
20 it was about a month later, it came up again, and -- she was
21 going to do it again.
22 Oh, I know, she was in New Hampshire is what
23 happened, but she was coming back to the trust that night to
24 spend the weekend with me and Patrick Jost. And she called
25 me from New Hampshire and said, "I'm not coming back. I'm
71
1 going to Texas instead."
2 And at the same time she E-mailed Patrick Jost and
3 said, "I'm not coming back. I'm going to Texas. I'm going
4 to get Dell Liebreich to drop the case."
5 So Patrick and I are like, "Wow, she's not coming
6 back, she's going to Texas."
7 Well, she ended up not going. She came back. She
8 shows up. We're like, "Now what is happening?"
9 I'm not sure, of course, what happened that
10 brought her back to Clearwater instead of going to Texas.
11 But, Mmm, sometime during the time when we found out she was
12 going to Texas and she returned, I told Jeff, I told Jeff
13 Jacobsen, that Stacy is going to Texas.
14 He said, "Yeah? Is she coming back?"
15 I said, "No, she's going to Texas.
16 "What is she going to Texas for?
17 "She's going to ask Dell to drop the case."
18 And he was real upset about it. Jeff has been
19 very involved, long before he got to the trust, in Lisa and
20 memorializing Lisa, so he was real upset about it.
21 So when Stacy came back, he confronted her on it.
22 And she just stood right there and said, "Oh, no, I wasn't
23 going to Texas. Where did you hear that? I wasn't going to
24 Texas to get her to drop the case."
25 Patrick and I were just like, wow. It was insane.
72
1 That is what I know about.
2 Q Let's -- let's talk about Bob Minton.
3 A Okay.
4 Q Did Bob Minton -- you said, I think, when Stacy
5 talked about getting money in from Operation Clambake, he
6 got very upset about it?
7 A Right. He was really upset about it.
8 Q Did you ever understand why he was upset about it?
9 A Well, Mmm, at the time I was trying to figure it
10 out myself, you know, because I couldn't get any straight
11 answers from Stacy.
12 And I didn't -- really wasn't comfortable enough
13 with Bob. It was his money. I wasn't going to Bob and
14 say -- I really wasn't comfortable enough with Bob to do
15 that.
16 I talked about it with some of my family members.
17 Q Who?
18 A My brother-in-laws who were both very successful
19 businessmen. And I just ran it past them. You have a
20 company, you -- it's a company. Bob Minton is paying all
21 our paychecks because -- here is what happened. You get
22 $500,000 donated to the trust. Every penny of it goes to
23 the chairman of the board, and we didn't get paid that
24 month. You know, what, does that sound crooked, you know?
25 They are like, "Get out. You need to get out of
73
1 that company," is what both of them said to me.
2 I talked to Brian Haney about it. And ultimately
3 I talked to Patrick Jost about it. And I -- I kept
4 thinking, is he laundering money? But -- they don't really
5 know anything about laundering money, but Patrick is -- used
6 to work for the Treasury Department in their money
7 laundering department. He's an advisor -- was an advisor to
8 Bob. He had gone to Switzerland with Bob.
9 And I talked to Patrick that day and I said,
10 "Patrick, what is he doing? What is with this money? Is he
11 laundering it?"
12 He said, "No, no, that is not money laundering, it
13 is tax evasion." That is what he said.
14 I said, "Oh, okay."
15 Q Let me interrupt you.
16 A I'm sorry.
17 Q I hate to interrupt. You were on a flow there.
18 Patrick Jost --
19 A Yes?
20 Q -- worked for Bob Minton?
21 A Yes.
22 Q And how do you know that Patrick Jost went to
23 Switzerland with Bob?
24 A Because he told me.
25 Q When was this?
74
1 A It was the very last day I was there. It would
2 have been September 6th.
3 Q And when did he go to Switzerland with Bob Minton?
4 A Mmm, I think he had gone twice, he said. And I
5 know one of them was over a holiday, probably the previous
6 Christmas, because he had described how he had gotten stuck
7 in France or somewhere coming back and Bob had gone ahead
8 and there was a problem with him getting back, over the
9 holidays.
10 Q Did he ever tell you what he did in Switzerland?
11 A He told me he was helping Bob with his finances,
12 but he really wouldn't go into detail.
13 THE COURT: Who is this, Mr. Jost?
14 THE WITNESS: Yes.
15 BY MR. DANDAR:
16 Q He's the former Treasury Department money
17 laundering specialist?
18 A Right. Yes. Right.
19 Q Did you have any understanding as to whose money
20 it was that Stacy forgot to plead the Fifth Amendment to in
21 her deposition and answered the question by Mr. Moxon as to
22 receiving this money from Operation Clambake?
23 A I don't understand your question. I'm sorry, I
24 don't know what you --
25 Q When I start to pace, I know it's going to be a
75
1 long question.
2 Did you ever have an understanding who was the
3 source of the money from Operation Clambake?
4 A Oh. Mmm, yeah. My understanding that it was Bob
5 was the source of the money.
6 Q How did you know that?
7 A From -- Patrick told me that during our
8 discussions.
9 Q Well, so why was it coming from Operation
10 Clambake?
11 A Mmm, see, that was the tax evasion part. It was
12 as a donation. Right? And I guess if it comes in as a
13 donation to a company, then rather than Bob bringing his own
14 money in -- you know, I don't know all of the details of
15 this, but this was my understanding -- that then he didn't
16 have to pay taxes because it was a donation to a company.
17 Q All right.
18 A You see?
19 Q Do you --
20 A I don't know if that is correct. I'm just telling
21 you that is how it was explained to me.
22 Q By the tax --
23 A By Patrick.
24 Q By Patrick? Do you have any idea of if other
25 donations came into the LMT from Europe?
76
1 A Yes. There were three of them, I believe, that
2 she testified to at that time. There were three different
3 donations for very large sums of money.
4 Q And do you know who was the source of that money?
5 A Anonymous German donors is what Stacy told me.
6 And -- they were from anonymous donors, she didn't even know
7 who they were. But my understanding was it was Bob's money.
8 Q But that you got only from Patrick Jost?
9 A That is where I got it, yes.
10 Q But Stacy told you it was anonymous?
11 A Right.
12 Q Do you know anything about a check to Ken Dandar
13 for $500,000 in May of 2000?
14 A No.
15 Q That is before you even went to work at the trust?
16 A Yes.
17 Q Okay. Do you remember Bob Minton saying anything
18 about being concerned about not paying his taxes?
19 A No, I don't.
20 Q Okay.
21 A No.
22 Q Did you ever hear Stacy expressing any concern
23 about Scientology finding out how much money Bob Minton had
24 given her?
25 A Mmm, well, no. I think -- no, I'm just going to
77
1 say no.
2 Q Okay. Was there anything else that comes to mind
3 that Bob Minton expressed any upset over because of
4 something that Scientology did?
5 A Well, there -- he was frequently upset about
6 things Scientology had done.
7 They -- he told me once about how they had handed
8 out fliers at his daughter's school. And when they
9 posted -- they posted his psychiatric -- I don't know if
10 they were psychiatric or psychological counseling records on
11 the Internet. And I guess that included the records of his
12 daughters who had received counseling. And that was a
13 huge -- it was -- he was just almost suicidal over that.
14 That was a mess.
15 Q Are you serious when you say suicidal?
16 A Yes, he was. He literally was. I literally heard
17 him on the phone sobbing, saying, "I just can't take this
18 anymore." And he was in a very, very bad shape.
19 Q And when was this?
20 A Oh, well, that -- you know, I don't remember
21 exactly. But I'm pretty sure it was all within that last
22 month. It was when he was coming in for some kind of
23 deposition. It might have been early. It might have been
24 June, July, because we were doing so many depositions,
25 everybody was being called in. But it was right before some
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1 deposition he had to go to for Scientology.
2 THE COURT: June or July of what year, ma'am?
3 THE WITNESS: 2001. It would have been 2001.
4 BY MR. DANDAR:
5 Q Well, he was scheduled on June 3rd, 2001 in a
6 deposition in Clearwater. And he didn't show up for it.
7 A All right.
8 Q All right. Do you know anything about that?
9 A Sure. Because that would have been right if that
10 is the same one. They had the Internet posting. He was
11 just incredibly upset about that.
12 Stacy was at the -- at the trust. And I was with
13 her. And, Mmm, and she was on the phone with him just --
14 just repeatedly -- he was crying and sobbing. I heard him
15 once. She had him on the intercom at one point, and he was
16 just sobbing, and actually indicating that -- I thought he
17 sounded suicidal, and it was really frightening. And she
18 just took him off the intercom and turned around and started
19 talking to him. And I left.
20 However, throughout the day she continued talking,
21 because she was trying to get him to come in for this
22 deposition.
23 And she kept saying to me, "I'll get him. I'll
24 get him. You watch, I'll get him to come in."
25 She would talk to him. And a lot of times he
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1 would just hang up on her, and -- he was so upset.
2 And she kept calling the airlines to change the
3 ticket, getting a later flight, getting a later flight until
4 there were no more flights to be had that night so he
5 couldn't possibly come.
6 And -- and that was during -- that whole thing
7 when he -- he was so upset he called someone, a woman named
8 Diane Palermo, and I think -- it must have been like a day
9 and a night and the next day was the deposition, because I
10 think he talked to her during the night and he talked to her
11 at length, and -- and then when he didn't show up for the
12 deposition, that became a problem. I think he was going to
13 be sanctioned for that or something.
14 And then they went and tried to get Diane to --
15 to -- to, I think, do an affidavit that said she was his
16 counselor and she was very upset. But she wouldn't do it
17 because she was not a counselor. Then --
18 MR. MOXON: May I interpose an objection as
19 to -- this is going on and on and on.
20 THE COURT: It really is.
21 THE WITNESS: Okay.
22 THE COURT: We need question and answer,
23 question and answer.
24 MR. DANDAR: I will.
25 THE COURT: We already had this.
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1 MR. DANDAR: But this is --
2 MR. MOXON: It is also not personal knowledge.
3 MR. DANDAR: We'll get to the personal
4 knowledge right now.
5 MR. MOXON: Well --
6 MR. DANDAR: Because she kept going. I wanted
7 to make sure what it is based on.
8 THE COURT: All right.
9 BY MR. DANDAR:
10 Q When you said that they tried to get her to sign
11 an affidavit --
12 A Yes.
13 Q -- as her counselor, what do you base that on?
14 A Stacy telling me that.
15 MR. MOXON: Object to hearsay.
16 THE COURT: I don't think so. Stacy testified,
17 and I think there has been some impeachment of
18 Ms. Brooks, so I'll overrule it.
19 A She was telling me. When I was sitting in her
20 office, she would say, "We are trying to handle it, get
21 Diane to do it. Diane won't do it." It was sort of an
22 ongoing problem. "What should we do? Who can we call? How
23 can we fix this sort of thing?" You know.
24 BY MR. DANDAR:
25 Q Well, when Diane refused to -- I mean, was Diane
81
1 refusing because she was afraid of Scientology? I mean, do
2 you have personal knowledge as to why she refused?
3 A Well, I do now. I found out. She called me
4 personally after I left the trust and told me.
5 Q Did --
6 A But at the time I did not.
7 Q Did you ever have knowledge that she was really
8 Bob Minton's counselor?
9 A She wasn't. Right.
10 Q Did they try to get someone else to file an
11 affidavit?
12 A Yes.
13 Q Who?
14 A Steve Hassan.
15 Q And do you know if Steve Hassan was ever Bob
16 Minton's counselor?
17 A He was not.
18 THE COURT: Who is Steve Hassan?
19 THE WITNESS: He is --
20 THE COURT: Would you spell that name for the
21 court reporter, the last name.
22 THE WITNESS: Yes. It is H-A-S-S-