Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida
Pinellas (727)821?3320 Hillsborough (813)224?9500
Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224?9500
43
1 IN THE CIRCUIT COURT FOR PINELLAS COUNTY, FLORIDA
2 CASE NO. 00?5682?CI?11
3
4
5
DELL LIEBREICH, as Personal
6 Representative of the ESTATE OF
LISA McPHERSON,
7
8 Plaintiff,
9 vs. VOLUME 2
10 CHURCH OF SCIENTOLOGY FLAG
SERVICE ORGANIZATION, JANIS
11 JOHNSON, ALAIN KARTUZINSKI
and DAVID HOUGHTON, D.D.S.,
12
Defendants.
13
_______________________________________/
14
15
16 PROCEEDINGS: Defendants' Omnibus Motion for
Terminating Sanctions and Other Relief.
17
CONTENTS: Testimony of Dr. Michael Garko.
18
DATE: June 11, 2002. Afternoon Session.
19
PLACE: Courtroom B, Judicial Building
20 St. Petersburg, Florida.
21 BEFORE: Honorable Susan F. Schaeffer,
Circuit Judge.
22
REPORTED BY: Lynne J. Ide, RMR.
23 Deputy Official Court Reporter,
Sixth Judicial Circuit of Florida.
24
25
44
1 APPEARANCES:
2
MR. KENNAN G. DANDAR
3 DANDAR & DANDAR
5340 West Kennedy Blvd., Suite 201
4 Tampa, FL 33602
Attorney for Plaintiff.
5
6 MR. LUKE CHARLES LIROT
LUKE CHARLES LIROT, PA
7 112 N East Street, Street, Suite B
Tampa, FL 33602?4108
8 Attorney for Plaintiff
9
MR. KENDRICK MOXON
10 MOXON & KOBRIN
1100 Cleveland Street, Suite 900
11 Clearwater, FL 33755
Attorney for Church of Scientology Flag Service
12 Organization.
13
MR. LEE FUGATE,
14 MR. MORRIS WEINBERG, JR.
ZUCKERMAN, SPAEDER
15 101 E. Kennedy Blvd, Suite 1200
Tampa, FL 33602?5147
16 Attorney for Church of Scientology Flag Service
Organization.
17
18 MR. ERIC M. LIEBERMAN
RABINOWITZ, BOUDIN, STANDARD
19 740 Broadway at Astor Place
New York, NY 10003?9518
20 Attorney for Church of Scientology Flag Service
Organization.
21
22
23
24
25
45
1 APPEARANCES: (Continued)
2
MR. BRUCE HOWIE
3 5720 Central Avenue
St. Petersburg, Florida.
4 Attorney for Robert Minton.
5
MR. LANSING C. SCRIVEN
6 Lansing C. Scriven, P.A.
442 W. Kennedy Boulevard
7 Suite 280
Tampa, Florida 33606
8 Counsel for Michael Garko.
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
46
1 THE COURT: Okay, I had a chance to have a
2 slight conversation with Mr. Howie, who told me what
3 this said. It is just a couple of lines.
4 And based on my interpretation of this, I think
5 it would be the lawyer's mental impressions and not
6 necessarily notes from the meeting itself and would,
7 therefore, rule it does not have to be turned over,
8 in fact should not be turned over as it might hamper
9 any future discussions and would give one side over
10 the other an unfair advantage based on mental
11 impressions of the lawyer.
12 So my intention is to either do one of two
13 things. Either to turn it back to Mr. Howie, or to
14 seal it. My preference is, frankly, just to give it
15 back, but I can certainly seal it.
16 MR. DANDAR: On behalf of the plaintiffs, based
17 on your ruling, we would say turn it back. And also
18 I don't know if we had it on the record, but both
19 the defense and plaintiff agreed you can meet with
20 Mr. Howie in camera to talk about that.
21 MR. WEINBERG: It was on the record.
22 THE COURT: Right. Do you have a preference on
23 this?
24 MR. WEINBERG: If it is okay with Mr. Dandar,
25 just turn it back.
47
1 MR. DANDAR: And is Mr. Howie telling the Court
2 that no one from the Church of Scientology saw that
3 paper, I would assume?
4 MR. HOWIE: Yes. I make that representation.
5 And I will ??
6 THE COURT: It has only been revealed ??
7 MR. HOWIE: The ?? it has only been revealed to
8 the Court the first five pages of these notes ??
9 which this is Page 6 ?? have been turned over as
10 attachments to the notice of filing.
11 MR. DANDAR: And there are no direct filed
12 notes or records from the 29th of March?
13 THE COURT: Are you ??
14 MR. HOWIE: No.
15 THE COURT: He's going to tell us about that.
16 He said he was going to make an announcement on
17 that. I don't know what he's going to announce.
18 But, in any event, Mr. Howie ?? that can be
19 given back to him, put in your file. Thank you.
20 Your Honor, I have been faxed two pages of notes
21 from Mr. Jonas from March 29th. I would object to
22 discovering that to any party in this case.
23 The reason for that is that the original
24 request for production of documents was for the list
25 or agenda of the 7 or 8 concerns of the Church of
48
1 Scientology going into the March 28th meeting. I
2 think that what we have provided to everyone
3 actually goes beyond that, that although the first
4 five pages of notes from March 28th cover these 7 or
5 8 concerns, there is a lot of additional information
6 that we gratuitously added to that.
7 Having reviewed the notes from March 29th,
8 these do not continue to list additional concerns,
9 they are work product by Mr. Jonas, they contain
10 here?and?there what I presume to be mental
11 impressions by Mr. Jonas. Although admittedly much
12 of it is straightforward reporting, I think it goes
13 well beyond the request for production of documents.
14 No party in this case would normally be permitted to
15 see the notes and work product of an attorney
16 anyway.
17 I believe, based on the testimony that has been
18 presented here by live witnesses, a thorough
19 reporting of what occurred during that meeting has
20 been presented. There are other witnesses who could
21 testify to that. And I don't think we should invade
22 the work product of another attorney, especially
23 when it goes beyond the original purpose for the
24 request for production of documents.
25 So I would ask I not be required to turn over
49
1 these notes to the Court, or to anyone else, for
2 that matter.
3 All right. Mr. Dandar?
4 MR. DANDAR: Mmm ??
5 THE COURT: I can't even remember, it's been so
6 long, I don't even remember why I ordered the first
7 set of notes turned over, to tell you the truth.
8 MR. HOWIE: Your Honor, if I can, on March ??
9 excuse me, on May 28 the Court heard testimony ??
10 and let me just provide the Court with my own notes
11 on this concerning the testimony by Mr. Minton.
12 He testified that there were 7 or 8 broad areas
13 of concern that were discussed, domain names,
14 releases, further funding. "Steve Jonas has copy of
15 list of these concerns. May have his own work
16 product notes. And the Court directed me to contact
17 Steve Jonas for a copy of this list. Any work
18 product on the notes probably not subject to
19 privilege."
20 However, we have reached a point where we've
21 gone beyond that. The original purpose of this was
22 the 7 or 8 broad areas of concern.
23 THE COURT: Part of that is because Mr. Minton
24 couldn't remember what they were, too.
25 MR. HOWIE: That is correct.
50
1 THE COURT: He said 7 or 8, he could remember 3
2 or 4, and said there were others and he can't
3 remember them.
4 I said, "Well, we better get them."
5 MR. HOWIE: That is correct. And I think we
6 have thoroughly met that concern by presenting
7 Mr. Jonas' notes of March 28. I think anything else
8 is surplusage and ventures into work product that
9 really shouldn't be discoverable.
10 THE COURT: All right. Mr. Dandar?
11 MR. DANDAR: If we're going to be limited to
12 the 7 or 8 topics on the first day, we'll file
13 another request for Monday morning to be produced.
14 No work product attaches to this type of negotiation
15 where the defense is making demands against a party
16 to affect this case, the case of the plaintiff.
17 It is known as the Mary Carter agreement. It's
18 illegal, it's unethical under Florida law by the
19 Supreme Court case of Doscarian (phonetic) in 1993
20 which we're going to brief the Court, especially
21 since Mr. Minton has been made party to the
22 counterclaim.
23 At the time that he originally testified in
24 front of Judge Baird, we knew nothing of any
25 meetings, any agreements or anything. And that is
51
1 what makes it subject to this illegal Mary Carter
2 circumstance or agreement. So all these notes ??
3 THE COURT: Of course you knew about the
4 meeting. The reason I know that, I remember reading
5 the transcript just this weekend where Mr. Lirot
6 asked ?? didn't he ask some questions ?? maybe he
7 didn't know about the meeting. He did ask questions
8 about what caused this turnabout.
9 And I remember him saying, were you asked or ??
10 or were you told something about ?? I don't
11 remember ?? several things he got into, could it be
12 this, could it be that.
13 MR. DANDAR: That was well after April 9, the
14 first hearing in front of Judge Baird.
15 THE COURT: You're talking about the first
16 hearing, April 9?
17 MR. DANDAR: Right. And when the motion was
18 filed on the 8th and delivered to my brother at the
19 deposition of Mr. Minton, there were no grounds
20 stated, there were no facts stated, and my brother
21 was told by Mr. Rosen, "Just wait until you see what
22 happens tomorrow at the hearing."
23 That makes it a totally insufficient motion
24 altogether. But if it weren't for knowing about
25 what Mr. Prince told us on the 14th of April, I
52
1 believe, that Sunday, there were secret meetings
2 going on, we would have no knowledge of those secret
3 meetings, the secret meetings, and have someone come
4 in and testify that they are testifying on their own
5 volition, without revealing to the Court ?? because,
6 remember, the confidentiality agreement said don't
7 reveal this to any court. That is not a proper
8 agreement under Florida law, which we'll bring out.
9 So I think we're entitled to all these notes.
10 Not the mental impressions of Mr. Jonas. We want to
11 know what he recorded down as coming from the lips
12 or the negotiations from the defense. That is
13 what ?? I believe we're entitled to know that. I
14 think the Court is.
15 THE COURT: What I suggest you do then, since
16 you had everything from the 28th, and since that
17 does cover what I asked ?? because my recollection
18 is now because Mr. Minton said there were 8 things
19 and he could only remember 3 or 4, I said, "Let's
20 get the rest of them," that covered my agenda of it,
21 but I think what you ought to do is file your
22 motion, I'll ask Mr. Howie to just hold onto those
23 notes, and we'll argue it whenever the motion is
24 filed.
25 MR. DANDAR: All right. We'll do that. We
53
1 filed a request to produce yesterday to the Church
2 of Scientology and Ms. Yingling to produce all of
3 her notes or whatever notes the Church may have
4 concerning these meetings. And I'm sure soon we'll
5 hear a response.
6 MR. WEINBERG: Well, I have a response about
7 what Mr. Dandar just said because I am stunned. He
8 just said that he didn't know anything about these,
9 quote, secret meetings in New York until after the
10 April 9 hearing in front of Judge Baird. That is
11 what he just said.
12 Well, I'm looking at Plaintiff's Exhibit 76,
13 which ?? I'll refresh your recollection, which is
14 this March 30, 2002 letter that Mr. Dandar testified
15 he sent up to Mr. Minton in which he says, "Your
16 call yesterday was disturbing to me on a
17 professional and personal level. I do not know what
18 extortion Scientology, through Rinder, Rosen and
19 Yingling, are perpetrating against you." That is
20 how it begins.
21 Then he goes on, on Page 2, and he talks about
22 Steve, which is Steve Jonas, which is one, two,
23 three, four, the fifth paragraph. "Steve told me
24 yesterday, after I talked with you, that he does not
25 believe that the demand is a total walk?away; it's
54
1 more like demanding the estate take less than it
2 expects. It's totally unethical for Rosen, Yingling
3 and Rinder to meet with you and make demands on the
4 estate."
5 Then he goes on and on, he talks about
6 blackmail and extortion. What is he talking about?
7 What is Mr. Dandar talking about that he didn't know
8 about this in the April 9 ??
9 MR. DANDAR: I misspoke.
10 MR. WEINBERG: No kidding ??
11 THE COURT: All right.
12 MR. WEINBERG: I'm sorry.
13 MR. DANDAR: I'm talking about the meetings
14 that occurred after the 29th. I'm sorry.
15 MR. WEINBERG: Well, that is a big ?? I'll
16 speak to you, your Honor.
17 That is a big difference.
18 MR. DANDAR: Yes, it's a huge difference,
19 because it not just asks Mr. Minton to try to get
20 Dell Liebreich to dismiss the case, it all changed
21 in going after the attorney to make the case go
22 away.
23 THE COURT: All right. Well, the long and
24 short of it is I'm going to give this back to you ??
25 MR. WEINBERG: Thank you.
55
1 THE COURT: ?? because it is in evidence. And
2 you are right. And you file your notice to produce
3 and make whatever ?? you know, we'll take that up as
4 a legal matter.
5 Mr. Howie, do you think you can be present
6 or ?? I guess you don't have to be here for the
7 argument.
8 MR. HOWIE: Well, I ?? I think I'll be filing
9 an objection on behalf of Mr. Minton. I need to
10 check my schedule for tomorrow, but I'll make myself
11 available.
12 THE COURT: Maybe what you can do, if you want
13 to file an objection, maybe if you're not going to
14 file it until tomorrow morning, maybe you can file
15 it tomorrow morning, we'll hear argument after
16 lunch, to at least give you the opportunity to file
17 a response.
18 In the interim, keep the notes and we'll see
19 whether you have to turn them over or not.
20 MR. HOWIE: All right. Thank you.
21 MR. WEINBERG: We are ready for Dr. Garko?
22 THE COURT: Dr. Garko, he can resume the stand.
23 MR. WEINBERG: He's right outside.
24 Your Honor, Ms. Yingling is in the audience.
25 She's a longtime lawyer for the church. That is not
56
1 a problem, is it?
2 THE COURT: I wouldn't think so.
3 Dr. Garko, you are still under oath. All
4 right?
5 THE WITNESS: Yes, your Honor.
6 THE COURT: Go ahead, Counsel.
7 (A discussion was held off the record.)
8 THE COURT: Proceed.
9 DIRECT EXAMINATION RESUMED
10 BY MR. WEINBERG:
11 Q Now, Dr. Garko, did you know about a March 30,
12 2002 letter from Mr. Dandar to Mr. Minton?
13 A I did.
14 Q Okay. I'm going to hand this letter up to you.
15 It's Plaintiff's Exhibit 76.
16 THE COURT: Now I know how you got your hand on
17 that so fast.
18 MR. WEINBERG: So quickly. That is where I was
19 in my outline.
20 BY MR. WEINBERG:
21 Q Do you recognize Plaintiff's Exhibit 76?
22 A I do.
23 Q And how do you recognize it?
24 A I recognize it as a letter that was written to
25 Mr. Minton by Mr. Dandar, and a letter which I edited, to
57
1 some extent.
2 Q Mr. Dandar asked you to edit that letter?
3 MR. DANDAR: Objection. This is work product.
4 MR. WEINBERG: Let me finish ??
5 THE COURT: If the question is whether or not
6 he asked you to edit it, I don't think it is work
7 product. If he asked you what did you say, that
8 would be work product.
9 MR. DANDAR: All right.
10 BY MR. WEINBERG:
11 Q Did Mr. Dandar ask you to edit that letter before
12 it was sent?
13 A He did.
14 Q And did you do that?
15 A I did.
16 Q Now, were you in attendance at the April 9, 2002
17 hearing before Judge Baird, the contempt hearing, where
18 Mr. Minton testified?
19 A No, I wasn't.
20 Q But you were outside the courtroom?
21 A I was in another place. I mean, I wasn't ?? I
22 wasn't in the building. I wasn't in the courthouse.
23 Q You were aware of the hearing?
24 A I was.
25 Q Now, at some point after this March 30 letter and
58
1 after the April 9 hearing, did you ?? did you, Dr. Garko,
2 initiate a telephone call to Robert Minton?
3 A I did.
4 Q And what was the reason that you initiated a call
5 to Robert Minton?
6 A Well, I believe it was April 9. We were in court,
7 "we" meaning Mr. Dandar and myself, trying another case.
8 THE COURT: Trying, what, another case?
9 THE WITNESS: Another case. It had nothing to
10 do with this case at all. It's hard to believe but
11 it's true.
12 And we were on a lunch break. And Mr. Lirot
13 was at the hearing in Judge Baird's court in
14 Clearwater. And he had come over to the courthouse
15 in Tampa and reported the testimony of Mr. Minton to
16 Mr. Dandar and myself.
17 THE COURT: I'm sorry, you?all were in Tampa?
18 THE WITNESS: Yes, ma'am.
19 THE COURT: Okay.
20 MR. DANDAR: I'll object to any further
21 questions on the conversation that took place with
22 Mr. Lirot, myself and Dr. Garko.
23 A So because of that conversation, that is what
24 prompted me to call Mr. Minton at his residence in New
25 Hampshire.
59
1 BY MR. WEINBERG:
2 Q And did you talk to Mr. Minton?
3 A I did ?? I did talk to him. But not when I placed
4 the call. I left a message telling him that I wanted to
5 speak with him, and if he could please, at his convenience,
6 call me. And he did.
7 Q And when did he call you?
8 A He called me later the next day but early in the
9 morning, it was like 3~a.m.
10 Q Did you talk to him?
11 A I did.
12 Q And can you describe for us the conversation?
13 A Yes. He called me and he said, "Michael, I got
14 your message." He said, "You're probably concerned about my
15 testimony in Judge Baird's court."
16 And I told him that I was.
17 And we spoke for about an hour. And he proceeded
18 to tell me and talk about his testimony in Judge Baird's
19 court.
20 And I asked him a number of questions to try and
21 inform myself about what was going on concerning the funding
22 of this case, meaning the Lisa McPherson wrongful death
23 case. And Mr. Minton was willing to talk to me. And I was
24 willing to listen. And I was just trying to get answers and
25 get informed.
60
1 Q Did ?? can you tell us what he said and what you
2 asked?
3 A Okay. I asked him if it were true that he had
4 given Mr. Dandar a check for $250,000 in March of 2002.
5 And he said that he did.
6 I asked him if he had given a check to Mr. Dandar
7 for the sum of $500,000 sometime during the year ?? I
8 believe it was ?? 2000.
9 And he said he did.
10 And I think Mr. Minton asked me why I was asking
11 him that.
12 I said, "Because I didn't know about that money."
13 And Mr. Minton conveyed to me that he was
14 instructed not to tell me about those moneys.
15 And I said, "Why in God's name would you be given
16 such an instruction and who gave you that directive?"
17 And he said that Mr. Dandar did.
18 I said, "Well, why did he do that?"
19 He said, "He just told me not to tell you or to
20 tell anybody else, in fear that you would learn about those
21 moneys."
22 He asked me ?? what did he ask me? He asked me a
23 number of questions.
24 He asked me if ?? obviously, he said, "You are
25 concerned about that, aren't you?"
61
1 I said, "Yes, I am, because Mr. Dandar told me in
2 the year 2001, September of 2001, that there wasn't ??"
3 MR. DANDAR: Objection. Work product.
4 THE COURT: Sustained.
5 MR. WEINBERG: This is his conversation with
6 Mr. Minton. He's telling Mr. Minton ??
7 THE COURT: Well, I know. But what he's
8 telling Mr. Minton is what Mr. Dandar told him in
9 '01.
10 That was not ?? in other words, he can invoke
11 the privilege at this point. But Mr. Minton has
12 probably testified to it. But he can't sit here and
13 testify to some things ?? just because he violated
14 the privilege doesn't mean Mr. Dandar now has to
15 waive it. Right?
16 MR. WEINBERG: Well ??
17 THE COURT: I think.
18 MR. WEINBERG: Well ?? well, I respectfully
19 disagree. But I understand what your ruling is.
20 THE COURT: As long as we know the answer,
21 so ??
22 BY MR. WEINBERG:
23 Q As a result of the conversation that you described
24 to Mr. Minton that Mr. Dandar told you, tell us what
25 happened to you.
62
1 MR. DANDAR: Well, the same privilege. It's
2 just another way to get it in through the back door.
3 MR. WEINBERG: No.
4 THE COURT: I'm sorry?
5 BY MR. WEINBERG:
6 Q What did you tell Mr. Minton that ?? did you tell
7 Mr. Minton what your financial situation was?
8 A Yes, I did.
9 Q What did you tell him?
10 A I told him I hadn't been paid for eight or nine
11 months.
12 Q All right. And did you tell him that you were ??
13 that you had cut your fees?
14 A I did.
15 Q Did you tell him that you, you know, were doing
16 this in order to assist the case in this time when they were
17 apparently ?? you understood there were no funds?
18 A That is what I told him.
19 Q And what did Mr. Minton say in response to that?
20 A He said something to the effect ?? Mmm, "Well, you
21 know, I don't know what the hell is going on down there, but
22 I had given ?? I gave Mr. Dandar that money and that was to
23 fund the case, and you should have been paid."
24 Q What else happened ?? what else did Mr. Minton say
25 during the conversation?
63
1 A He expressed to me his concern about perjury.
2 And I said, "What are you talking about?"
3 He said, "Well, I perjured myself in some
4 depositions."
5 I said, "Really?" I said, "I attended your
6 depositions, Bob. I never knew you to perjure yourself."
7 And he said, "Yes, you did."
8 I said, "What?"
9 And he said, "You remember the time when I
10 testified about a meeting ?? or I testified that I never
11 participated in any meetings and whatnot?"
12 I said, "Yeah?"
13 He said, "Well, you attended a meeting in which we
14 discussed the adding of David Miscavige. And present at
15 that meeting were you, myself, Stacy, Ken and Jesse."
16 I said, "Bob," I said, "I don't know what you're
17 talking about. That meeting never happened."
18 He said, "Well, you know ??"
19 And I asked him a series of questions. I said,
20 "When did it take place? Where did it take place? What
21 time of day did it take place?" I was trying to figure out
22 what he was talking about. And I told him repeatedly on
23 that night at 3~o'clock in the morning, I said, "With all
24 due respect to you, Mr. Minton," I said, "that meeting never
25 happened."
64
1 And he said, "Well, we have a difference of memory
2 here."
3 And he expressed to me his concern about the
4 perjury. I mean, he talked about that at length. And he ??
5 he said to me that Mr. Dandar had encouraged him to lie.
6 And I said, "About what?"
7 And something to do with secret agreements and
8 money and bank accounts. And all of which wasn't making
9 much sense to me because I wasn't privy to any of this.
10 And I said, "Well, when I was with you at your
11 depositions, you know, I never heard anybody, in my
12 presence, encourage you to lie, so I don't know anything
13 about these things."
14 He said, "Well, I understand that."
15 Q Do you recall anything else ??
16 A Mmm ??
17 Q ?? from this hour or so long conversation?
18 A I do. He expressed to me his concern about the
19 pressure that he was experiencing and this was difficult for
20 him, and that he wanted to try and disentangle himself from
21 this difficulty that he was in. And he spent considerable
22 amount of time talking about that. The perjury was one
23 topic and the money was the other major topic.
24 He asked me if I was upset. And I told him I was.
25 He said, "So you didn't know anything about those
65
1 moneys?"
2 I said, "Absolutely not. I didn't. I was under
3 the impression that there wasn't any more money."
4 He said, "Well, how much are you being paid?"
5 I said, "Right now?"
6 He said, "Yeah."
7 I said, "I'm being paid $4,000 a month as a
8 retainer." I said, "That is not what it was initially."
9 He said, "Well, what were you being paid?"
10 I said, "Initially when I was retained I was paid
11 $5,000 a month plus my billable hours, then when I went onto
12 the case full?time I was paid $8,000 a month, then I was
13 asked ??"
14 THE COURT: Is there some reason I should care
15 about what his fee arrangement was?
16 MR. WEINBERG: No. I mean ??
17 BY MR. WEINBERG:
18 Q Did you end up telling him you had not gotten any
19 moneys since September?
20 A Right. I told him I had not been paid for the
21 last eight or nine months. For some reason he was
22 interested in how much I had been paid and what I was being
23 currently paid. I told him.
24 Q Did you, given that March 30 letter that I showed
25 you ??
66
1 A Yes?
2 Q ?? in which Mr. Dandar talks in that letter to
3 Mr. Minton ?? this is the one you reviewed ??
4 A Yes?
5 Q ?? about extortion and blackmail, did you ask
6 Mr. Minton, during the conversation, whether he was being
7 extorted or whether there was some blackmail or something
8 about that?
9 A I did. I did ask him that question.
10 Q Tell us what you can recall you asked him and what
11 his response was.
12 A I said, "You know, is Scientology, the Church of
13 Scientology, putting pressure on you to admit that you
14 perjured yourself?"
15 And he ?? he said that ?? something to the effect
16 that they were aware that he had perjured himself and that
17 he needed to come clean with that or he would ?? you know,
18 he would find himself facing serious charges.
19 And beyond that, he did not tell me that there was
20 any other issue or thing that he did that was being
21 leveraged to get him to say that he was admitting perjury.
22 Q In Mr. Dandar's March 30 letter, there is a clause
23 or a section about a Nigerian deal or Nigerian money.
24 A Yes.
25 Q Did you ask him about whether he had some offshore
67
1 problems, tax problems, Nigerian problems, anything like
2 that?
3 A No, I didn't. I was not specific in my
4 questioning about that.
5 Q Okay. Can you remember anything else from the
6 conversation?
7 A Just generally, the way the conversation ended,
8 you know, I told him I needed to speak with him further. It
9 was late. He apologized profusely about calling me at 3 in
10 the morning. He said he would call me the next day or I
11 would call him.
12 And I said, "I really need to talk to you because
13 I don't know what is going on and I'm looking for
14 information," I said, "because I'm not getting any
15 information. I need to talk to somebody."
16 Q At that point, what was your state of mind?
17 A I was upset. I was upset.
18 Q Upset at ?? with somebody, or at ?? or for some ??
19 A I was upset because I felt, Mmm, I had been kept
20 in the dark about the money. I was working for free, in
21 essence ?? I mean, not for free, I was still keeping track
22 of my billable hours, but I wasn't getting a retainer every
23 month.
24 I felt, you know, conflicted because I was devoted
25 to the case. And I didn't want to abandon Mr. Dandar during
68
1 this 8?month period, when he told me there wasn't any money.
2 Then when Mr. Minton told me there was $750,000 I didn't
3 know about, I became very upset.
4 Q Did you have other conversations, telephone
5 conversations, after that, and/or meetings after that, with
6 Mr. Minton?
7 A I did.
8 Q Can you tell us about those?
9 A Mmm, I spoke with Mr. Minton, I don't know how
10 many times, on the telephone. He called me. I called him a
11 couple times. Just generally, I was trying to get a sense
12 and feel for what was going on in the litigation with him,
13 all of the litigation matters regarding him.
14 I was concerned about him because he said he had
15 committed perjury. I mean, in the legal world that is a
16 serious issue. And I was very concerned about him. So we
17 talked about those things.
18 And then at one point we ?? we agreed to ?? I
19 said, you know, "I would like to see you. I want to talk to
20 you face?to?face. I need to talk to you face?to?face."
21 And he said, "That would be fine."
22 And we agreed to meet on Sunday at the Radisson
23 where he was staying. And I went to the Radisson and met
24 with him and Ms. Brooks.
25 Q And this would be Sunday, like the ?? I don't have
69
1 a calendar in front of me.
2 A It would be the Sunday after the 9th, I believe
3 the first Sunday ?? that week, you know, the end ?? I think
4 the 9th was a Monday or Tuesday, and that following Sunday.
5 Q Okay. And ??
6 THE COURT: Are you talking about in May?
7 MR. WEINBERG: No, April.
8 THE WITNESS: April.
9 THE COURT: The date?
10 MR. DANDAR: April 14th.
11 BY MR. WEINBERG:
12 Q And is it your recollection that these
13 conversations that you were having with Mr. Minton were
14 prior to the big affidavit that Mr. Minton filed?
15 A That's right.
16 THE COURT: Well, you certainly knew, at the
17 time that you were meeting and calling and what have
18 you, that Mr. Minton had gone into court in front of
19 Judge Baird and had said some things that were
20 pretty harmful to your ?? what shall I say ?? your
21 side of the case?
22 THE WITNESS: Yes, Judge.
23 THE COURT: Didn't it concern you that perhaps
24 these meetings were not such a hot idea for you?
25 Did you ever ask Mr. Dandar's permission, for
70
1 example?
2 THE WITNESS: Mr. Dandar wasn't speaking to me,
3 your Honor.
4 THE COURT: Did you ever ask his permission?
5 THE WITNESS: No, I did not. I didn't feel I
6 needed to ask his permission.
7 THE COURT: Did you ever ask Ms. Liebreich's
8 permission?
9 THE WITNESS: To speak with Mr. Minton?
10 THE COURT: Yes.
11 THE WITNESS: No, I didn't.
12 THE COURT: Did you ever ask anybody's
13 permission to speak with Mr. Minton?
14 THE WITNESS: No, I didn't.
15 THE COURT: All right.
16 BY MR. WEINBERG:
17 Q What do you mean that Mr. Dandar wasn't speaking
18 to you?
19 A I haven't spoken to Mr. Dandar since April 9th.
20 Q And did you try to speak to him on April 9?
21 A Through his attorney.
22 Q And was there some refusal, or what?
23 A Nonresponsive, except for one time when I met with
24 his attorney, and that was three weeks ago or so. And they
25 had been nonresponsive.
71
1 Q In other words, you or your counsel have reached
2 out to them, but you didn't get a response back?
3 A That is right.
4 Q Now, you said that there was a meeting, I guess
5 Mr. Dandar said the calendar would indicate April 14th, if
6 that is the Sunday, and it was at the Radisson?
7 A Yes. I believe that is the correct date.
8 Q Can you tell us about that meeting?
9 A Yes. My ?? I went there, and my intention was to
10 try and understand and really hear from Mr. Minton
11 face?to?face whether it was true that he had given $250,000
12 in March of 2002 and $500,000 in 2000. That was my primary
13 intention. Because I was told that there wasn't any more
14 money and I wasn't being paid, and I was working. I found
15 that to be a betrayal, a breach of trust.
16 I mean, I have been working on the case for three
17 years, and I expressed to Mr. Minton that I needed to know
18 the truth, because I wasn't getting it from anyplace else.
19 Mr. Dandar wasn't talking to me. And I just ?? I needed to
20 know what was going on. I'm not going to work on a case
21 when ??
22 THE COURT: You know, really, we don't need to
23 hear all this bickering between himself and
24 Mr. Dandar. We need to find out the issues here,
25 not whether or not he and Mr. Dandar had a little
72
1 stew.
2 BY MR. WEINBERG:
3 Q Well, what else happened at the meeting?
4 A We ?? he talked about his perjury problems. And
5 he expressed to me that this was a lot of pressure on him.
6 And that he needed to just disentangle himself from this
7 mess, and that he felt betrayed by Mr. Dandar. And
8 developed that idea, to some extent.
9 Q Do you remember, was there anything else of
10 substance that you remember that you talked to him about as
11 it related to what became this proceeding?
12 A Not really. Well, we did talk about the so?called
13 meeting.
14 And I told him again ?? and I wanted to tell him
15 face?to?face, I said, "The meeting that you claim took place
16 with those particular individuals with the agenda ?? or
17 topic, at least, that you identified, never happened."
18 And he said, "Well, you know ??" again, he just
19 said, "We have a different memory about that."
20 Q Now, today you have testified about a meeting that
21 did happen?
22 A In fact, I told him that at that time, and I told
23 him when I spoke to him on the phone, I said, "What I do
24 recall is there was a moment or a time when you and Stacy
25 came to Mr. Dandar's office, to Ken's office, and we sat in
73
1 a conference room, I didn't construe it to be a meeting, and
2 the topic of David Miscavige came up. And if you recall, I
3 talked ?? I talked about what an imprudent idea I thought it
4 was. And I gave the reasons why." I said, "I recall that."
5 I said, "But this other thing that you are
6 alleging didn't happen," I said, "I don't remember Jesse
7 Prince being there, I don't remember you walking out to the
8 elevator with Mr. Dandar and all that other business. I
9 don't remember any of that."
10 So he and I were at variance on this particular
11 issue.
12 Q How did it end?
13 A It was fine. I said, "I wish you good luck." I
14 said, "Thank you for informing me and telling me. You know,
15 I just wanted to know what was going on and I'm concerned
16 about the case. The case is what is important. That is all
17 that is important."
18 And I told him that I thought it was a righteous
19 and meritorious case. And I recall hugging him. And I
20 thanked him and I left.
21 Q And have you talked to him since?
22 A I think maybe I talked to him one time after that
23 briefly, I think ?? maybe one or two times, I think. But I
24 haven't had any extended communication with him at all.
25 Q Now, in the course of the case ?? now focusing
74
1 more on the big picture ?? do you recall any conversations
2 that you had with Mr. Minton about public statements of
3 Mr. Minton or depositions ?? testimony that Mr. Minton gave
4 concerning this agreement for the proceeds?
5 A I beg your pardon, I just missed the first part.
6 Did I ??
7 Q Okay. Did you ever have any conversation with
8 Mr. Minton with regard to any of the public statements that
9 Mr. Minton made on the radio or other places, or his
10 testimony about any agreement by the estate to donate some
11 of the proceeds?
12 A I did. I did.
13 Q And was Mr. Dandar there for those?
14 A No. This conversation occurred when I was in
15 Clearwater visiting at the Radisson, now that you mention
16 that.
17 Q And what was that?
18 A I challenged him. I said, "And, by the way, you
19 know ??" he had mentioned something about secret agreements,
20 he was talking about, which prompted me then to ask him a
21 question that was on my mind for many, many, many, many
22 months.
23 And that was, I said, "What possessed you to go on
24 the radio and say that you had an agreement with the estate
25 to ?? to have ?? to receive a large portion or sum of any
75
1 settlement that might be gleaned or acquired in the wrongful
2 death case?" I said, "What was that all about?"
3 He said, "Well, that was the truth."
4 I said, "Well, illuminate me because I don't know
5 about any secret agreements."
6 And he proceeded to tell me what that agreement
7 was between and among him, Mr. Dandar and Ms. Liebreich.
8 Q Now, in August of 1999, did you ?? were you in Key
9 West for a series of meetings with various people, including
10 Mr. Leipold and Mr. Dandar, concerning this strategy in the
11 case?
12 A I was.
13 Q And how many days were you there for that?
14 A Oh, it was like two, three days. It was like over
15 a weekend, hot as blazes. I remember that.
16 Q And Mr. Prince was there, as well?
17 A He was.
18 Q And did you?all work? I mean, how many hours a
19 day did you?all meet or work with regard to the strategy
20 concerning the case?
21 A Mmm, I mean, there weren't ?? it wasn't some sort
22 of organized systematic visit. There were conversations
23 from time to time about various aspects of other cases in
24 Scientology ?? involving Scientology. But I don't have any
25 recollection of sitting down and having ?? you know, at a
76
1 table with a certain number of people talking about the case
2 and strategizing and all that kind of business.
3 It was more casual than that, informal than that.
4 And the topics were varied, and people ?? different people
5 were talking at different places.
6 Q But it was mostly focused on Scientology cases,
7 including the Lisa McPherson case?
8 MR. DANDAR: Privilege.
9 THE COURT: Sustained.
10 MR. WEINBERG: Okay.
11 BY MR. WEINBERG:
12 Q Now, did you ?? did you meet with ?? in your
13 lawyer's office yesterday afternoon with your lawyer, me and
14 Ron Hanes?
15 A I did.
16 Q All right. And did you answer questions
17 essentially like the questions that I asked you today?
18 A I did.
19 Q And did we ?? and did you ?? were you and your
20 lawyer very careful not to discuss any privileged
21 information, only ?? only conversations concerning your
22 communications with Mr. Minton?
23 A That was a precondition.
24 Q Now, prior to that meeting ?? prior to any
25 discussions, are you aware of a letter ?? if yesterday was
77
1 June 10, I think ?? if yesterday was June 10, are you aware
2 of a letter I faxed to Mr. Scriven on June 8 ?? and I'll
3 hand it up to you in a second ?? in which I confirmed that
4 the Church of Scientology was withdrawing its motion to add
5 you as a party to the breach case?
6 A I am.
7 Q All right. And ?? and that was a letter that was
8 done before you ever had any communications with me or
9 Mr. Hanes?
10 A It was.
11 THE COURT: Who is this last person you are
12 talking about?
13 MR. WEINBERG: Oh, Ron Hanes. He represents
14 Janis Johnson. Do you remember Thrombley & Hanes?
15 THE COURT: Right.
16 MR. WEINBERG: If I could approach the witness,
17 your Honor.
18 THE COURT: You may.
19 BY MR. WEINBERG:
20 Q Also, have you received or did your counsel
21 receive a release and covenant not to sue which was executed
22 by the Church as to you and your company as it related to
23 any participation by you or involvement concerning the
24 Church of Scientology?
25 A I did.
78
1 Q And you don't have any ?? you haven't released the
2 Church of Scientology for any liability to you as it relates
3 to adding you to a lawsuit or anything like that, have you?
4 A Absolutely not.
5 THE COURT: I'm sorry, I didn't understand
6 that.
7 MR. WEINBERG: In other words, it's not a joint
8 release. We have ?? I'll ask the question.
9 BY MR. WEINBERG:
10 Q You have not ?? you have not released the Church
11 from any potential liability to you, is that correct?
12 A I have not.
13 Q Okay.
14 THE COURT: Well, do you think you have any?
15 THE WITNESS: I think I do.
16 MR. WEINBERG: All right, may I approach, your
17 Honor?
18 THE COURT: You may.
19 MR. DANDAR: May I see it, please?
20 MR. WEINBERG: Yes. I'm going to give you a
21 copy.
22 MR. DANDAR: Oh, okay.
23 MR. WEINBERG: Madam Clerk, the letter would be
24 what?
25 THE CLERK: 189.
79
1 MR. WEINBERG: So the June 8, 2002 is
2 Defendant's Exhibit 189, your Honor. And that makes
3 the release Defense Exhibit 190.
4 BY MR. WEINBERG:
5 Q If you'll look at 189, is that a copy of the
6 letter that I sent to your attorney, Lance Scriven, on
7 June 8, 2002?
8 A It is.
9 Q And is Defense 190 a copy of a release agreement
10 and covenant not to sue executed yesterday, June 10, 2002,
11 by Ben Shaw?
12 A It is.
13 MR. WEINBERG: Okay. Those are all my
14 questions.
15 THE COURT: All right. Mr. Dandar, were you
16 aware that, number one, Mr. Weinberg had met with
17 him yesterday?
18 MR. DANDAR: No, your Honor. Mr. Weinberg said
19 he wanted to be excused at noon to do other
20 business, and the only witness they would call would
21 be Monique Yingling.
22 And I announced at five we would call
23 Dr. Garko. And we tried to get ahold of Mr. Garko,
24 through Luke Lirot, and Mr. Scriven returned the
25 call saying he was coming in this morning, he was
80
1 being called this morning to present testimony by
2 the Church of Scientology.
3 THE COURT: Are you prepared to go forward and
4 cross?examine him, having just received these
5 documents?
6 MR. DANDAR: I would like to, otherwise ?? I
7 don't want to delay anything.
8 THE COURT: All right. Go ahead.
9 CROSS?EXAMINATION
10 BY MR. DANDAR:
11 Q Let's just start where Mr. Weinberg left off. The
12 release and covenant not to sue that Mr. Shaw signed on
13 behalf of the Church of Scientology Flag Service
14 Organization, are you aware that that does or does not
15 include RTC?
16 A I have no idea, Mr. Dandar.
17 Q RTC, which holds currently a judgment in Texas,
18 and trying to domesticate it here in Florida?
19 A I have no idea.
20 Q Okay. And the Church dropped you ?? or, actually,
21 you are not formally a party in the breach case before Judge
22 Baird yet, and I guess you never will be.
23 But do you know what you promised to do in
24 exchange for the Church not going forward and adding you on
25 as a defendant in the breach case before Judge Baird?
81
1 A Your question presumes I did such a thing. And I
2 didn't. I made no promise to do anything. This was
3 unsolicited.
4 THE COURT: Well, did you ever really think you
5 were going to get sued, when the clear testimony was
6 that you did not even approve of adding
7 Mr. Miscavige as a defendant?
8 THE WITNESS: What I believed, your Honor, was
9 that the hearing ?? the motion not even having been
10 heard yet, I have had to hire an attorney, and I
11 really didn't know what to expect. What was
12 expressed to me by Mr. Weinberg is that there was no
13 basis to go forward given the state of the evidence.
14 He expressed that to me yesterday. And that was ??
15 and he was giving me the reason why he sent the
16 letter.
17 He said, "There is no basis, given the state of
18 the evidence, to keep you included as a defendant or
19 try to add you as a defendant." And that is what he
20 told me.
21 THE COURT: That is kind of beyond ?? it is
22 kind of beyond me, Dr. Garko, that you didn't know
23 the basis of the suit. The suit was, was it not,
24 breaching a contract ??
25 THE WITNESS: I ??
82
1 THE COURT: ?? by adding Mr. Miscavige?
2 THE WITNESS: Yes, ma'am.
3 THE COURT: Trying to add Mr. Miscavige to the
4 wrongful death case?
5 THE WITNESS: Yes. I knew that. Maybe I
6 misspoke. What I'm trying to say is that
7 Mr. Weinberg told me that given the state of the
8 evidence, that is, Mr. Minton's affidavit and
9 Ms. Brooks' affidavit that I did not approve of this
10 idea to add David Miscavige, that there was no basis
11 to go forward, there was ?? so that is why he sent
12 the letter. That is what I meant by that.
13 I certainly understood what they were claiming.
14 I never thought that there was a theory in law to
15 support it. But, nevertheless, I had to defend
16 myself.
17 THE COURT: I just didn't ?? I just wanted to
18 know if you really thought that this was worth
19 something, that you really ?? you really were liable
20 to being sued. Did you believe it?
21 THE WITNESS: Sure, I did.
22 THE COURT: Did you have a lawyer?
23 THE WITNESS: Yes, ma'am. Mr. Scriven.
24 THE COURT: And were you listening to your
25 lawyer? Did you explain all this to your lawyer?
83
1 THE WITNESS: I did.
2 THE COURT: And your lawyer still thought you
3 might get sued?
4 THE WITNESS: He felt we would have to defend
5 it in a hearing, and he didn't know what Judge Baird
6 was going to do.
7 THE COURT: I guess nobody ever knows what us
8 judges will do.
9 MR. WEINBERG: See, I don't think what you
10 understand is in the breach case, which I wasn't a
11 part of, the Church, on April 12, before the big
12 affidavit of Mr. Minton, had filed a motion to add
13 Dr. Garko as a party defendant. They actually filed
14 a motion to add him as a defendant.
15 THE COURT: Well, that is because Mr. Minton
16 really hadn't been quite as candid as he got later
17 when he said Dr. Garko really didn't want to do
18 this. He got a little more candid as he went along
19 about that.
20 MR. WEINBERG: He wasn't specific at that
21 point.
22 THE COURT: Well, after Ms. Brooks made it real
23 specific, then Mr. Minton got real specific, as I
24 recall.
25 MR. WEINBERG: Anyway, that was ?? that was my
84
1 concern.
2 MR. DANDAR: Or they just added on Dr. Garko
3 without any evidence whatsoever on April 12th.
4 BY MR. DANDAR:
5 Q Dr. Garko, it says in this release, "For valuable
6 consideration, the receipt and sufficiency of which are
7 hereby acknowledged."
8 What is your understanding of what valuable
9 consideration you are giving to the Church of Scientology
10 for them to drop you from the breach case?
11 A I ?? I don't know. My lawyer drew this up. And I
12 signed it.
13 Q Oh, your lawyer drew it up?
14 A Yes.
15 Q Okay.
16 THE COURT: Where are you reading from,
17 Counsel?
18 MR. DANDAR: I'm sorry, the first paragraph,
19 the last clause.
20 THE COURT: Oh. Okay.
21 BY MR. DANDAR:
22 Q Did you also get, I hope, a voluntary dismissal
23 with prejudice, signed, sealed and delivered?
24 A I don't think so. I don't think so. This is ??
25 these are the only two documents that I know about.
85
1 Q Did you get any representation from the Church of
2 Scientology that they had no evidence to create a cause of
3 action against you for tortiously interfering with the
4 contract?
5 A That is what I just tried to explain a moment ago.
6 Mr. Weinberg told me and my attorney that there was no basis
7 to go forward given the state of the evidence, i.e.,
8 Mr. Minton's affidavit, Ms. Brooks' affidavit, stating that
9 I was not in support of adding David Miscavige as a
10 defendant to the wrongful death case.
11 Any thought ?? they thought that was the right
12 thing to do, and I certainly agreed with them. And I said
13 to my lawyer, I said, "I want some assurances here ??"
14 THE COURT: I want to be real careful with you
15 on this. You start talking about what you said to
16 your lawyer ??
17 THE WITNESS: Right?
18 THE COURT: ?? then don't be turning around
19 with me and start claiming the privilege. You don't
20 get to just claim it when you want it or waive it
21 when you want to. You either want to claim it or
22 you don't.
23 You need time to speak to your lawyer?
24 THE WITNESS: No.
25
86
1 BY MR. DANDAR:
2 Q Dr. Garko, when you ?? when your attorney got this
3 letter on June 8, which was dated Saturday, before your
4 meeting yesterday which was Monday ??
5 A Yes?
6 Q ?? did you know you were going to have a meeting
7 yesterday afternoon with Mr. Weinberg?
8 A Well, at some point I knew.
9 Q Well, how soon in advance?
10 A I think I knew somewhere around noon or maybe a
11 little before noon.
12 Q Yesterday?
13 A Yes.
14 Q That is the first time you knew you were going to
15 meet with Mr. Weinberg?
16 A That is right.
17 Q And this letter from Mr. Weinberg is dated June 8.
18 When did you know that the Church of Scientology had made a
19 decision to drop you as a party defendant in the breach case
20 before Judge Baird?
21 A When my attorney advised me.
22 Q And what date was that?
23 A I don't recall. It may have been the day that he
24 received the letter. I don't know.
25 Q Was it yesterday?
87
1 A I'm not sure. I don't know if it was yesterday or
2 the weekend. I'm not sure about that.
3 Q All right. And you meeting with the attorneys for
4 the Church of Scientology, was that something that ?? whose
5 idea was that?
6 A Well, what do you mean?
7 MR. SCRIVEN: Let me object to the extent it
8 invades the attorney?client ??
9 THE COURT: That is true. Beyond anything ??
10 in other words, if it is ?? I suppose it is your
11 decision, or if it is something other than some
12 discussion you and your lawyer had, you can talk
13 about it. Otherwise, you can claim the privilege.
14 THE WITNESS: It was a conversation I had with
15 my lawyer.
16 BY MR. DANDAR:
17 Q Was it in your mind ?? was it in your mind ?? was
18 it your understanding ?? I hope it is different ?? that your
19 meeting with Mr. Weinberg and coming here today was part of
20 your consideration for them dropping you?
21 A Absolutely not.
22 Q All right. Let's start from the beginning.
23 THE COURT: For whatever it's worth, just so
24 you all know ?? you know what? Did you know he met
25 with Mr. Weinberg?
88
1 MR. DANDAR: Yesterday?
2 THE COURT: Yes.
3 MR. DANDAR: No.
4 THE COURT: Until he said so?
5 MR. DANDAR: That is right.
6 THE COURT: You didn't ?? you just picked up on
7 his testimony this morning where you couldn't
8 remember Point 3, Mr. Weinberg helped him to get
9 Point 3?
10 MR. DANDAR: I just ??
11 THE COURT: I mean, it is obvious they talked.
12 Didn't you pick up on that?
13 MR. DANDAR: That part I picked up on.
14 Yesterday I didn't pick up on it.
15 BY MR. DANDAR:
16 Q Okay, Dr. Garko, since April 9, the first hearing
17 before Judge Baird, you and I have not spoken since that
18 day. Correct?
19 A That is what I testified to earlier.
20 Q Okay. And before the Church of Scientology
21 invoked the sequestration rule of witnesses before Judge
22 Baird on April 19, ten days later, were you under any
23 prohibition to call me up on the phone?
24 A I believe that no more, no less than you were to
25 call me.
89
1 Q Okay.
2 THE COURT: Maybe I don't understand the rule
3 of sequestration. When the rule of sequestration
4 goes into effect, it doesn't mean you can't call
5 each other. It means you can't discuss the case.
6 MR. DANDAR: I understand that.
7 THE COURT: Right?
8 MR. DANDAR: Yes. And I knew I was going to be
9 a witness, and we knew Dr. Garko would be a witness,
10 so to avoid any appearance, we ?? or I just
11 decided ?? you are right.
12 THE COURT: Somehow the way that came out, once
13 the rule of sequestration went in on the 19th, he
14 couldn't call you and you couldn't call him, I just
15 wanted to make sure that everybody understood that
16 is not exactly so.
17 BY MR. DANDAR:
18 Q Now, Dr. Garko, while you were working for me, as
19 you said, at probably the beginning of the year 2000, and up
20 until you met with Mr. Weinberg yesterday, did anyone from
21 the Church of Scientology make any overtures to you of any
22 kind during that two?year period?
23 A Overtures of ?? I don't understand your question.
24 Q I don't understand it much myself.
25 But do you recall meeting with Mr. Lirot for two
90
1 hours?
2 A I think it was more than two hours. That was ?? I
3 do recall that was three weeks ago that we met with
4 Mr. Lirot.
5 Q And do you recall you saying to Mr. Lirot that the
6 Church of Scientology, over the past, has made overtures to
7 you?
8 A What I probably meant to say was that Mr. ?? what
9 I said to Mr. Lirot was that Mr. Weinberg was trying to
10 communicate with my attorney, wanted to communicate with my
11 attorney, and made an overture to want to speak with
12 Mr. Scriven. That is what I was talking about.
13 Q Okay. And is Mr. Weinberg's conference with you
14 yesterday with Mr. Hanes and your attorney the first time
15 you spoke to anybody that is connected with the Church of
16 Scientology about these ?? this new position and testimony
17 of Bob Minton and Stacy Brooks?
18 A Correct.
19 Q Now, let's go to this meeting ?? not meeting but
20 this drop?in to my office by Bob Minton and Stacy Brooks.
21 All right?
22 You were already at my office. Is that what you
23 recall?
24 A That is my recollection.
25 Q All right. What office was it?
91
1 A The one on Kennedy.
2 Q All right. And the one I had before, the
3 three?story building, had no elevator. Correct?
4 A That is correct.
5 Q All right. And I took notes of your testimony on
6 direct here. And were you and I, either one of us, as far
7 as you know, expecting Stacy Brooks and Bob Minton to pop
8 in?
9 A No. That is why I said it wasn't a meeting. It
10 was ?? they just showed up.
11 Q Are you aware of any meeting that I scheduled that
12 involved Stacy Brooks?
13 A Not to my recollection. Not to my recollection.
14 Q Okay. Are you aware of any meeting that occurred
15 to discuss the adding on of any defendants in the year 1999
16 after the Key West trip, if that helps zone you in on the
17 year. No?
18 A I don't recall.
19 Q Okay. Let me put it to you this way. The first
20 hearing before Judge Moody where we had a proposed fifth
21 amended complaint and we had a motion to set aside the 1997
22 agreement not to add on parties, that occurred in October 6
23 or 8 of 1999.
24 A Okay.
25 Q Did we ever have a meeting with anybody before
92
1 that to add on David Miscavige or anybody else in 1999?
2 A Not that I recall.
3 Q Okay.
4 A Just you and me.
5 Q Okay. Did we ever have any discussions with Jesse
6 Prince?
7 A About adding David Miscavige?
8 Q Yes.
9 A Oh, probably did. Yeah, I think so. Yes.
10 Q Do you recall we used his affidavit as part of the
11 motion?
12 A That was ?? exactly. That was the evidence to.
13 Q Was there ever a meeting that Bob Minton attended,
14 even a pop?in meeting or just a pop into the office, where
15 it was discussed in front of him to add on David Miscavige
16 before we went to court and asked the Court's permission to
17 either set aside the agreement or add on David Miscavige?
18 A No.
19 Q Are you sure?
20 A I'm positive.
21 Q Okay. Now, this pop?in, casual hello that you
22 described on direct by Mr. Minton and Ms. Brooks, you
23 said ?? and you told Ms. Brooks and Mr. Minton the three
24 reasons why you didn't think it was a great idea to add him
25 on, do you remember that part?
93
1 A I do.
2 Q Then you said, "And Stacy Brooks said, 'Well, I
3 told Ken not to add him on,'" and you said you were startled
4 by that?
5 A Right, I think it was more of a question. She
6 said, "And, Ken, why did you do that, given what I had just
7 said? Why did you do that?"
8 Q Why were you startled about that?
9 A Because I knew that it was Ms. Brooks' idea to add
10 Mr. Miscavige, and that you and I had discussed that issue.
11 Q Well, don't get into discussions but ??
12 A Okay.
13 Q ?? but it was her idea?
14 A It was her idea.
15 Q When did it become her idea?
16 A When?
17 Q Yes.
18 A I don't know. In her life? I mean, I don't know.
19 Q Did we ever have a meeting with her where we sat
20 down and strategized on the case of we need to add on more
21 parties for some reason, without telling us what the meeting
22 was about?
23 A I don't have a recollection of that.
24 Q Okay. Somewhere you heard her discuss that this
25 case should include David Miscavige?
94
1 A I did.
2 Q Okay. And was Bob Minton part of that discussion?
3 A Absolutely not.
4 Q All right. To this day, just so the Court knows,
5 since this is the first time you and I are actually kind of
6 talking together ??
7 THE COURT: I'm so glad I could have this
8 opportunity.
9 MR. DANDAR: I'll withdraw that ?? what I was
10 going to ask.
11 BY MR. DANDAR:
12 Q Based upon the comments you recall Stacy Brooks
13 making at this pop?in, "Hi, how are you doing" in my office
14 on Kennedy, isn't it true that that pop?in occurred after
15 Judge Moody permitted us to add on David Miscavige?
16 A It ?? it could have. It could have happened ??
17 see, I'm not clear about that. It could have happened after
18 the first motion was denied and ?? and between ?? and, thus,
19 between the first motion that was denied and when the second
20 motion was granted.
21 Or it could have happened subsequently ?? or
22 subsequent to when Judge Moody said, "You can add him but as
23 head of the Sea Org."
24 Somewhere ?? I'm just unclear about that.
25 THE COURT: I'm sorry, I was confused, you can
95
1 add him there but as the Sea ??
2 THE WITNESS: Judge Moody said you can add
3 David Miscavige but as head of the Sea Org.
4 THE COURT: It could have been after that
5 hearing?
6 THE WITNESS: It could have been.
7 BY MR. DANDAR:
8 Q But is it your recollection it was most definitely
9 after Judge Moody originally denied our motion to set aside
10 the agreement?
11 A For that, I'm absolutely sure.
12 Q Okay. Now, let's talk about Mr. Minton.
13 A Okay.
14 THE COURT: Wait a second. I don't want to
15 leave that meeting just yet.
16 MR. DANDAR: All right.
17 THE COURT: Did I hear you say ?? I think you
18 said it, I'm not sure, that you do not recall when
19 Mr. Minton and Ms. Brooks left whatever this is you
20 call it, kind of a casual meeting, for lack of a
21 better word, you do not recall Mr. Dandar going down
22 the elevator with them?
23 THE WITNESS: I do not, your Honor.
24 THE COURT: Do you recall them leaving and him
25 remaining?
96
1 THE WITNESS: I recall ?? I don't have a clear
2 recollection how ?? how it sort of disbanded. I
3 think people said good?bye and they left and that is
4 what is in my mind. But, you know, I'm not really
5 sure.
6 But I ?? I certainly didn't go down in any
7 elevator. And I don't know of Mr. Dandar going down
8 in any elevator. I just don't know.
9 THE COURT: Whatever meeting you had, Mr.
10 Prince was not there?
11 THE WITNESS: I'm pretty sure about that, your
12 Honor, he was not there.
13 THE COURT: Okay.
14 BY MR. DANDAR:
15 Q In the two?plus years that you've been working on
16 this case for me, who was in control of this case?
17 A The client.
18 Q Well, what about Bob Minton? Does he have
19 anything to do with running the case?
20 A Do you mean day?to?day operations of the case?
21 Q Day?to?day decision?making?
22 A No. No.
23 Q How would you describe Mr. Minton's association
24 with the day?to?day operation of the case, strategizing,
25 decision?making, et cetera?
97
1 A I can only speak from my experience and what I
2 observed of Mr. Minton's behavior. I would describe it as
3 hands?off, laissez?faire, aloof.
4 Q Would you agree or disagree that to try to talk to
5 Bob Minton over the two?plus years about the case was like
6 pulling teeth?
7 A I would agree with that.
8 Q Okay. Let's talk about the secret meeting ?? or,
9 no, the secret agreement. Where did you first hear this
10 so?called secret agreement?
11 A I'm not sure, but it may have been when Mr. Minton
12 went on radio and announced to the world that there was this
13 arrangement such that a large portion of any moneys gleaned
14 from this case would go to fighting cults or Scientology.
15 And I think I recall going ballistic with you,
16 saying, "What in the hell is he talking about? You know,
17 what's he doing out there? Somebody has to rein this guy
18 in."
19 Q Were you actually listening to a radio program, or
20 what?
21 A No. You informed ?? my recollection is you told
22 me about it.
23 And I was just shocked. I said, "What is he
24 talking about?" I mean, "How can he do that? First of all,
25 he should ??"
98
1 Q Well, wait. Wait.
2 MR. DANDAR: This is so difficult, Judge. I'm
3 trying to get you the testimony, but I'm also trying
4 not to violate my privilege.
5 THE COURT: Times are tough, Mr. Dandar.
6 MR. DANDAR: Well, Judge, could we have a
7 ruling from you that one subject matter does not
8 open up a whole can of worms and waive the privilege
9 of the entire case?
10 THE COURT: If you want to talk about this
11 agreement, this one issue here ??
12 MR. DANDAR: Right.
13 THE COURT: ?? I will do this. If you want to
14 open up that particular area, then that particular
15 area is opened up.
16 MR. DANDAR: And nothing else?
17 THE COURT: And nothing else.
18 MR. DANDAR: All right. Let me think about it.
19 THE COURT: Can you?all agree with that? Or do
20 you want not to?
21 In other words, I think what he's trying to
22 say, he would like to maybe waive, I guess ?? it is
23 kind of like an attorney?client privilege, I guess,
24 part of that attorney?client privilege.
25 MR. WEINBERG: I think some of the questions he
99
1 asked in other areas have already opened up the ??
2 with Mr. ?? Dr. Garko, I'm sorry, for questions that
3 otherwise would ?? I would have not been able to ask
4 about, and he asked Dr. Garko a lot of questions.
5 But I don't think it is inappropriate to go
6 issue by issue, and I don't think that is
7 inappropriate. But there has been some other
8 questions that Mr. Dandar ??
9 THE COURT: Well, are you worried with that if
10 you get into it and he objects. But I'm asking you
11 now, if he has any objection to waiving the
12 attorney?client privilege to the area of the
13 agreement and agree that that area does not open up
14 any other areas?
15 MR. WEINBERG: Could I have one second?
16 THE COURT: Yes.
17 MR. WEINBERG: I think so. Frankly, I don't
18 know the law on it.
19 THE COURT: I don't, either. That is why I'm
20 trying to get both sides to agree.
21 MR. WEINBERG: If I did, I would tell you.
22 But, fine.
23 THE COURT: It's reasonable to me, so you have
24 got an agreement. Go ahead.
25
100
1 BY MR. DANDAR:
2 Q Dr. Garko, are you aware of any agreement between
3 me or the estate and Mr. Minton or LMT or Stacy Brooks or
4 anybody where the bulk of the proceeds, if that ever comes
5 about in this case, would ever be given to them?
6 A I'm not aware of any such agreement.
7 Q How about just a little bit?
8 A No.
9 Q I don't mean to be funny. I'm sorry. How about
10 any portion?
11 A I'm not aware of any agreement involving those
12 parties in the way that you framed it.
13 Q There were two depositions taken by the Church of
14 Scientology of Bob Minton in September and October of 2001,
15 one in the breach, one in here.
16 Did you attend both those?
17 A I believe I did. I believe I did.
18 Q Okay. Are you aware that during those two
19 depositions ?? one of them I can't remember, either ?? it
20 was disclosed in transcripts of radio or newspaper
21 interviews about Mr. Minton's Internet ?? even his Internet
22 postings came out about the bulk of the proceeds?
23 A You have refreshed my recollection. That's right,
24 I do recall that.
25 Q And do you recall that it was after that
101
1 deposition that you and I approached Mr. Minton to say,
2 "What are you doing? Where did this come from?"
3 A I recall some discussion about that, but I'm just
4 not clear about what was said or ?? but I was concerned. I
5 voiced my concern about this business.
6 Q Did you ever see me tell anybody, including
7 Mr. Minton or Stacy Brooks, "Oh, yes, yeah, we have an
8 agreement. It's okay. Don't worry about it"?
9 A No, I didn't.
10 Q Now, were you ?? forgive me for asking this ?? but
11 were you part of the trial team when I incorporated the Lisa
12 McPherson Trust for Mr. Minton?
13 A I was.
14 Q Okay. So that was, I believe, October of '99?
15 A I believe it was.
16 MR. DANDAR: Okay. Here is another area,
17 Judge, talk about the LMT. And, of course,
18 Mr. Minton was there so there is no privilege.
19 Okay.
20 BY MR. DANDAR:
21 Q Do you recall any conversation I had with
22 Mr. Minton about him wanting to form a corporation and using
23 the name "Lisa McPherson"?
24 A I do.
25 Q What was it?
102
1 A I ?? I think you had some reservations about that.
2 You weren't fond of the idea. That is my general
3 recollection.
4 Q And when Mr. Minton talked about why he wanted to
5 do the Lisa McPherson Trust incorporation, what did he say
6 why he wanted to do it?
7 A Oh, Mr. Dandar, I really don't recall why he
8 wanted to start up that organization, other than to ?? as I
9 remember it ?? deal with Scientology in some capacity, or to
10 confront them, or to ?? you know, I don't know how to put
11 it ?? I don't want to say attack, but to try and ?? what is
12 the catch phrase, expose the practices of Scientology or
13 something.
14 Q Okay. Expose the practices? Were there any other
15 reason, in reference to people who wanted to leave
16 Scientology?
17 A To help people that were in Scientology and wanted
18 to leave, to give them some sort of exit or way out, or that
19 kind of thing.
20 Q Was there ever any discussion with Mr. Minton
21 about using the Lisa McPherson Trust to somehow help the
22 wrongful death case?
23 A Never.
24 Q Did you ever picket?
25 A Not even when I was in the union.
103
1 Q So for the Lisa McPherson Trust, did you or I ever
2 picket?
3 A I ?? no.
4 Q Did I ever express, in your presence, what I
5 thought about Mr. Minton picketing?
6 A I know what you expressed.
7 Q What is that?
8 A It was the same thing that I expressed. And that
9 was that he shouldn't do that, it was a bad idea. I felt
10 that it was harmful to the case and exposed ?? exposed the
11 case in ways that were ?? that were deleterious to what we
12 were trying to do. And I was opposed to it.
13 Q Well, did I disagree with you on that?
14 A No. You ?? you agreed with me.
15 Q Now, are you aware that when Mr. Minton testified
16 on April 9 before Judge Baird ?? and without getting into
17 any specifics ?? that he misspoke about a $500,000 check?
18 A I am aware of that.
19 Q In fact, he said in his testimony before Judge
20 Baird that check came in in 2001 instead of 2000?
21 A I don't know what he said in front of Judge Baird.
22 But I know what he told me.
23 Q What did he tell you?
24 A He told me that he misspoke.
25 Q Oh.
104
1 A That he made a mistake. And he said that to me in
2 the phone conversation at 3~a.m. And he also told me that
3 when I was in Clearwater visiting him at the Radisson.
4 Q Okay. Outside of the trial team ??
5 THE COURT: Excuse me just a second. Sorry, I
6 have got to take this call. We'll be in recess for
7 about ten minutes.
8 MR. DANDAR: Same instructions to the witness?
9 THE COURT: Same instructions.
10 (WHEREUPON, a recess was taken from 2:26 to 2:45 p.m.)
11 ____________________________________
12 THE COURT: Continue on.
13 BY MR. DANDAR:
14 Q All right. Do you recall, Dr. Garko, that I ever
15 told you to leave the room when I was on the phone with Bob
16 Minton?
17 A No.
18 Q Did I ever tell you to leave the room if I was
19 meeting with Bob Minton?
20 A No.
21 Q Did we ever have any set meetings at the LMT?
22 A No.
23 Q Did we ever have a set meeting anywhere other than
24 New Hampshire with Bob Minton?
25 A No.
105
1 MR. DANDAR: Now, here is another area I need
2 to not have a waiver of the privilege. I'm going to
3 ask him about this ?? the name Fred.
4 MR. WEINBERG: Well, I disagree with what he
5 just said. It is a waiver of the privilege, but he
6 doesn't want a general waiver.
7 THE COURT: Right.
8 MR. WEINBERG: Right?
9 THE COURT: Right.
10 MR. DANDAR: Okay. That is right. Agreed?
11 MR. WEINBERG: I said so. While we're
12 operating under that ??
13 THE COURT: Yes, we'll continue to operate
14 under that general agreement that there are certain
15 areas that are at issue here ??
16 MR. DANDAR: Okay.
17 THE COURT: ?? and that will not constitute a
18 general waiver where you can just ask everything
19 about the whole case.
20 MR. WEINBERG: Some day I'll research the law
21 and figure out what the rule is ??
22 THE COURT: Me, too.
23 MR. WEINBERG: ?? but I don't know what it is.
24 BY MR. DANDAR:
25 Q Did you ever hear me refer to Bob Minton, while I
106
1 was on the phone talking with him, as Fred?
2 A I have heard you use the name Fred when you talked
3 to him on the phone. I'm not clear whether you were
4 referring to him or some fictitious character. I'm not
5 sure.
6 Q Okay. You don't know why I did that?
7 A I think I do.
8 Q Go ahead. What is it?
9 A Mmm, sort of a way to disguise the ?? the donor of
10 the money.
11 Q Really?
12 A I think it was never really clear. That is why I
13 say it is not clear as to why you used Fred. I'm not sure.
14 Q Do you recall me using the name Fred to Bob Minton
15 when I'm on the phone because we thought we were bugged in
16 the room?
17 A Oh, yes.
18 Q All right. And let's go back to what you said
19 before.
20 Did I ever tell you or anyone else that when I
21 used the word Fred I was talking about some source of money?
22 A Not to me. I don't know about anybody else. I
23 can only speak ??
24 Q To you?
25 A ?? to me.
107
1 Q Or in your presence?
2 A That's right.
3 Q Okay. Now, this New Hampshire trip happened in
4 February 23rd to 24th, I believe, of 2002. Do you recall
5 going to Vanderbilt University to take the deposition ??
6 were you there ?? of Dr. Fogo?
7 A Absolutely.
8 Q And do you recall me having conversations with
9 Mr. Minton about meeting us there?
10 A Yes.
11 Q And do you recall whose idea it was to get
12 together with Minton?
13 A I think it was Mr. Minton's idea.
14 Q And do you recall me telling you, or Bob saying,
15 why he wanted to meet me?
16 A I'm ?? I don't ?? I don't have a clear
17 recollection as to why. I'm just not sure. I want to say
18 something about the money or funding, but I'm not sure about
19 that so I ?? I don't wish to speculate.
20 Q All right. Do you recall me saying that Bob
21 Minton wants to meet with me and I don't know why because he
22 won't say?
23 A That is probably true because I don't have a clear
24 recollection of why he wanted to meet, so that is very
25 possible. Yes.
108
1 Q Do you recall Bob Minton calling me up and wanting
2 to have me fly to Atlanta to meet him and Stacy Brooks?
3 A That is right. He did.
4 Q And then when I declined that, do you recall me
5 making a reservation for him at the new hotel at Vanderbilt
6 University?
7 A Yes.
8 Q And do you recall him canceling that?
9 A I do.
10 Q And do you recall why he canceled it?
11 A I'm not sure why he did. I'm not sure at this
12 moment. I can't recall.
13 Q Well, let me see if I can help see if you remember
14 this. Do you recall him canceling it because Mark Bunker
15 was in the hospital?
16 A Oh, yes. Mark, I think, had some heart problem,
17 coronary problem of one sort or another. They thought he
18 had a heart attack. I think that is what I ?? that is what
19 I recall.
20 Q Okay. And do you recall that I went to the Cayman
21 Islands for a week with my family?
22 A I recall that.
23 Q Do you recall me going to the Cayman Islands over
24 the years ?? well, as long as you have known me, with my
25 family?
109
1 A I recall you taking these cruises or whatnot to go
2 someplace.
3 Q And did we have any discussion about Bob Minton
4 meeting me in the Cayman Islands?
5 A I don't remember that.
6 Q All right.
7 A I don't remember that.
8 Q Now, let's talk about New Hampshire. Whose idea
9 was it for you to go to New Hampshire?
10 A I raised the issue of going to New Hampshire. I
11 wanted to go because I felt I could assist.
12 Q And did I tell you that Bob Minton wanted us ?? or
13 wanted me ?? before you and I talked about it, before you
14 said you wanted to go, did I tell you that Bob Minton is the
15 one that wanted me to come to New Hampshire and see him?
16 A That is what you told me.
17 Q And did I tell you I didn't know what it was
18 about?
19 A I asked you, "Why are we going?"
20 And you said, "I'm not clear. I don't know."
21 Q And is that New Hampshire trip the culmination of
22 all these other arrangements of trying to meet Bob Minton at
23 his request?
24 A Yes.
25 Q Now, let's talk about New Hampshire. Stacy did
110
1 make a great dinner that night, didn't she?
2 A Pretty good.
3 Q Okay. And Bob Minton did have an emotional
4 breakdown?
5 A Mr. Minton was very, very upset.
6 Q In fact, he was crying ?? would you agree he was
7 crying uncontrollably?
8 A That is a fair characterization.
9 Q And would you agree that the only reason he gave
10 us when he said "I don't trust you anymore" to me is because
11 of these attacks on the Internet?
12 A That was ?? that was the thrust of his concern.
13 Q Did he ever say, "You made me lie under oath, Ken
14 Dandar"?
15 A He never said that in my presence.
16 Q So then he explained how emotionally upset he was
17 because of these attacks on the Internet and he thought I
18 orchestrated that?
19 A He did.
20 Q And did I assure him that he had received bad
21 information, I had nothing to do with that?
22 A You told him that you were not involved in that
23 and did not organize it and had nothing to do with it and
24 you were going to do whatever you could to stop it.
25 Q Now, you recall eating the dinner that Stacy
111
1 prepared?
2 A I do.
3 Q And do you recall, in the dining room of Bob's
4 150?year old farmhouse, we sat at a table with only four
5 chairs?
6 A Dining room table. That is right.
7 Q And do you recall that Bob Minton's back was to
8 the fireplace?
9 A I think that is ?? I think that is right. I think
10 so.
11 Q And I sat directly across from him at the table?
12 A You were face?to?face.
13 Q And you and Stacy were face?to?face?
14 A Right. We sat on opposite sides of the table.
15 Q You recall Bob Minton bringing up, all by himself,
16 the statement, "I have no more money for you"?
17 A He did.
18 Q And he was looking at me when he said that?
19 A He ?? he was looking at you and ?? and was, as I
20 testified earlier, pretty emphatic about it.
21 Q And do you recall me saying, in response to that,
22 "That is okay, Bob. I appreciate everything you have done"?
23 A That is what you said.
24 Q Okay. Was there anything right then and there in
25 your mind that I was not being sincere?
112
1 A No.
2 Q Oh. Okay. All right.
3 A No. I was ?? I wanted to say something to him,
4 but I didn't.
5 Q All right. You wanted to, what, request money?
6 A Absolutely. That is why I went.
7 Q Okay. Speaking of money from Bob Minton, did I
8 ever tell you, every time I got a check, how much it was?
9 A No.
10 Q Did I ever tell you how much the costs were in
11 this case?
12 A Indirectly.
13 Q Now, the notes from Mr. Rosen ?? well, we'll get
14 to that later.
15 Did I ever tell you ?? well, never mind. I better
16 watch where I'm going here. The privilege.
17 Now, when Mr. Minton says, "I have no more money
18 for you," at that dinner on Saturday night in New Hampshire,
19 do you recall him saying then, "But I have a friend in
20 Europe that I can talk to, to get you more money"?
21 A I recall a conversation or some statements about
22 alternative sources and some European source for money.
23 Q Okay. And do you remember me asking Bob, "Well,
24 who would that be?"
25 A I do recall that.
113
1 Q And do you remember Bob Minton saying, "Well,
2 let's call him the 'Fat Man'"?
3 A Or some such name.
4 Q And ?? and what was my reaction?
5 A I ?? Mmm, I describe it as you thought it was sort
6 of a silly ?? silly thing ??
7 Q Okay.
8 A ?? to do.
9 Q Now, at this dinner do you remember Bob Minton
10 saying that there were some conditions that this person in
11 Europe would want me to do in order to get some more money?
12 A I don't have a recollection of that.
13 Q Okay. Let's see if I can jog your memory. And,
14 of course, tell me what you remember.
15 Do you remember Bob Minton saying that one of the
16 things I needed to do was to quit talking to Patricia
17 Greenway?
18 A You refreshed my recollection. I do recall that.
19 Q Do you recall Jesse Prince coming to my office in
20 February of that year, telling me, before he ?? before he
21 went to New Hampshire, telling me the same thing?
22 A Yes.
23 Q Back in New Hampshire, do you remember Mr. Minton
24 saying, also, that somehow I had to make an effort to get
25 these people to quit talking about him on the Internet?
114
1 A He was pretty insistent about that. That was one
2 of the conditions among a couple others, I believe.
3 Q Okay. And then do you remember him saying I had
4 to write him a letter expressing my sincere thanks and
5 gratitude for what he has done?
6 A He did. I think he referred to it as a suck?up
7 letter.
8 Q Did he call it a suck?up letter then?
9 A I think ?? I don't know, maybe I'm a little
10 confused and I got that from him in a later conversation.
11 Q Okay. All right. Do you recall at the conclusion
12 of that dinner everything seemed to be just fine and dandy
13 between me and Bob Minton?
14 A There seemed to have been some relational repair
15 that occurred and he seemed more at ease, he seemed more
16 relieved. I was despondent, but he was okay.
17 Q Throughout your two?plus years on the ?? working
18 for me for the estate, did you ever hear any ?? from any
19 source whatsoever anyone say, "Ken Dandar, you have to do
20 this in the Lisa McPherson wrongful death case if you want
21 to get any more money"?
22 A Never in my presence.
23 Q Did you ever hear, from any source, anyone say,
24 "Ken Dandar, you did this. That is great. Here is some
25 more money for doing that"?
115
1 A No.
2 Q Now let's go to Sunday. Sunday morning everybody
3 got up kind of late. Do you recall that?
4 A I did. I got up late. Yes.
5 Q Well, all except maybe for me, I got up early.
6 Do you recall that ?? were you downstairs Sunday
7 morning before Mr. Minton, or after?
8 A Before Mr. Minton. Before Mr. Minton.
9 Q Okay. I was already downstairs?
10 A You were.
11 Q Okay. Was Stacy Brooks already downstairs?
12 A Yes. You were in the kitchen.
13 Q She and I were talking?
14 A You were.
15 Q Okay. Now, sometime on that Sunday morning you do
16 recall sitting down with me, Stacy Brooks and Bob Minton,
17 and he started talking about Judge Schaeffer's contempt
18 order?
19 A I do recall that.
20 Q And one of us, me or Mr. Minton, said, "Well,
21 let's go over the questions and see what the big deal is"?
22 A I think we all sort of agreed to do that. I
23 thought it was a good idea and I was for that, yes.
24 Q And we went over all those questions, all 80?plus
25 questions?
116
1 A We did.
2 Q Okay. Now, did I ever tell Bob Minton to lie
3 about anything?
4 A Not in my presence.
5 Q Did I ever tell Bob Minton to fudge somehow so he
6 didn't have to answer the question truthfully?
7 A Not in my presence.
8 Q Have you ever known me to tell anybody to lie
9 under oath?
10 A No. And I wouldn't work for you if you did.
11 Q I'm not talking just about this case. I said
12 anywhere.
13 A That is right. I wouldn't work for you or any
14 attorney that told that to a witness.
15 Q Okay. One thing that bothers me, and I don't mean
16 this as ?? don't take me wrong. Okay? And I know you said
17 your attorney drew this up.
18 A Yes.
19 Q But this release that you signed with Flag, you
20 know, it still says "for valuable consideration." Let me
21 ask you this question.
22 Did you agree to do anything for the Church of
23 Scientology to get them to drop you from the breach case?
24 A Absolutely not. Nothing. Zero. Zip. Nada.
25 Nothing.
117
1 Q Okay. In the wrongful death case, you took
2 copious notes on your laptop?
3 A Absolutely.
4 Q All right. Did you agree or have you given them
5 any of your notes?
6 A Absolutely not.
7 Q Is there anything planned in the future?
8 A To do what?
9 Q For you to give them anything of any value at all,
10 anything, testify somewhere, here or anywhere, anything of
11 value that I could try to understand why that says "for
12 valuable consideration, receipt of which is hereby
13 acknowledged." We all know that is form language, but ??
14 A Mr. Dandar, being a trial jury consultant, I hope
15 I never have to testify again in any proceeding. I offered
16 them nothing. I didn't tell them I would do anything. I
17 didn't offer them anything. They didn't offer me anything.
18 There was no exchange of promises to do anything. I
19 wouldn't do that. That would be unprincipled, in any mind.
20 Q I agree.
21 THE COURT: Have you been relieved of your
22 duties in this case, whatever you want to call it, I
23 don't know, whether you and Mr. Dandar have some
24 sort of written agreement or whether it is just, you
25 know, "Will you work for me on this case?"
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1 THE WITNESS: We have an oral contract, your
2 Honor. And Mr. Dandar hasn't advised me that I have
3 been relieved of my responsibilities.
4 THE COURT: Nor have you advised him?
5 THE WITNESS: I have not.
6 THE COURT: So as far as you know, it is your
7 understanding that your relationship as his trial
8 consultant continues?
9 THE WITNESS: I ?? I ?? that is the premise I'm
10 operating under.
11 THE COURT: I'm kind of ?? there has been much
12 about this particular hearing and this particular
13 case that confuses me.
14 There must have been some reason why you, as
15 Mr. Dandar's trial consultant, thought it would be
16 all right for you to meet with the opponent chief
17 trial attorney without notifying Mr. Dandar that you
18 were doing so.
19 THE WITNESS: Your Honor ??
20 THE COURT: It's very confusing to me. I mean,
21 my ?? I had, you know, investigators and people that
22 used to work for me. I would have been beside
23 myself, I couldn't have been in the same room, quite
24 frankly, if that had occurred.
25 What ?? what was going on here?
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1 THE WITNESS: What was going on in my mind?
2 THE COURT: Well, yeah. I guess.
3 THE WITNESS: What motivated me to agree to
4 meet with Mr. Weinberg and Mr. Hanes was that the
5 Church of Scientology had identified me as a
6 potential defendant in the breach of contract case.
7 I had spoken with Mr. Lirot several weeks ago.
8 I was seeking information from him and wanting to
9 talk with him, trying to explain to him, you know,
10 my position.
11 And I had the sort of same motivation to speak
12 with Mr. Weinberg. I had my attorney with me whom I
13 consider to be probably one of the most ethical
14 attorneys I have ever known. And I felt that I
15 would be in good hands with him. And I wanted to
16 give Mr. Weinberg ?? they were ?? they subpoenaed
17 me. And he said he wanted to talk with me.
18 THE COURT: He subpoenaed you for today.
19 THE WITNESS: Yes, ma'am.
20 THE COURT: Right?
21 THE WITNESS: He subpoenaed me to be here to
22 testify. You know, he ?? he asked if he could speak
23 with me. I certainly was interested in wanting to
24 know what he wanted to talk about.
25 Being a trial consultant, I figure if I had a
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1 preview of coming attractions, at least, you know, I
2 could cope better with the situation. I was curious
3 as to what he wanted ?? wanted to know, quite
4 frankly.
5 And I would not ?? my attorney was very clear
6 about not wanting to violate any privileged
7 information. And in all fairness to Mr. Weinberg
8 and Mr. Hanes, Mr. Weinberg said that he did not
9 want to broach any issue or topic that dealt with
10 this wrongful death case or otherwise cause me to
11 breach the confidentiality ?? the confidentiality
12 between me and Mr. Dandar.
13 And with Mr. Scriven present, I felt
14 comfortable, to some extent, in doing that. That
15 was my motivation. I was curious, as I was curious
16 to speak with Mr. Lirot ??
17 THE COURT: Mr. Lirot is co?counsel for the
18 estate.
19 THE WITNESS: I understand that.
20 THE COURT: Did you call him to say, "You don't
21 mind, do you, if I go over and talk to Mr. Weinberg
22 about my testimony tomorrow?"
23 THE WITNESS: I didn't, your Honor. This
24 happened about as quick as instant coffee yesterday.
25 I got notified a little before noon that
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1 Mr. Weinberg wanted to meet. And I ?? I said,
2 "Fine. That is fine with me. See what he has to
3 say. What does he want to ask me?" That was my
4 motivation. It's as simple as that.
5 And this business about this letter and this
6 agreement, Mr. Weinberg told me yesterday that he
7 felt that that was proper because there was no basis
8 to go forward given the state of the evidence, that
9 is, Mr. Minton's affidavit, Ms. Brooks' affidavit,
10 that I had nothing to do ?? or certainly was opposed
11 to the idea of adding Mr. Miscavige, and he felt the
12 Church made the right decision to drop me as a
13 defendant.
14 And I told him I was very pleased with that,
15 given that while Mr. Scriven is a fine lawyer, he
16 does have billable hours. And to be dropped as a
17 defendant was just fine with me.
18 THE COURT: Just out of curiosity, do you think
19 that if I were to put a little statement of this,
20 what you did, that you went and met with opposing
21 counsel with your lawyer present, and never bothered
22 to discuss this with your boss, do you think you
23 would get hired by a whole lot of other lawyers?
24 THE WITNESS: Well, you know, context is
25 everything, your Honor. And at ?? at that point in
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1 time, candidly, I felt that my relationship with
2 Mr. Dandar was pretty fractured. We had a pretty
3 contentious interaction on April 9th. I mean, I
4 was ?? to be candid with you, I was very, very upset
5 with him. And I ??
6 THE COURT: You are always free to say, "I'm
7 off this job, I'm not on this job anymore, I'm outta
8 here."
9 THE WITNESS: I understand.
10 THE COURT: You didn't. You didn't tell him