Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida
Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500
Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500
43
1
2 IN THE CIRCUIT COURT FOR PINELLAS COUNTY, FLORIDA
3 CASE NO. 00-5682-CI-11
4
5
6
DELL LIEBREICH, as Personal
7 Representative of the ESTATE OF
LISA McPHERSON,
8
9 Plaintiff,
10 vs. VOLUME 2
11 CHURCH OF SCIENTOLOGY FLAG
SERVICE ORGANIZATION, JANIS
12 JOHNSON, ALAIN KARTUZINSKI
and DAVID HOUGHTON, D.D.S.,
13
Defendants.
14
_______________________________________/
15
16
17 PROCEEDINGS: Defendants' Omnibus Motion for
Terminating Sanctions and Other Relief.
18
CONTENTS: Testimony of Monique Yingling.
19
DATE: June 12, 2002, morning session.
20
PLACE: Courtroom B, Judicial Building
21 St. Petersburg, Florida.
22 BEFORE: Honorable Susan F. Schaeffer,
Circuit Judge.
23
REPORTED BY: Donna M. Kanabay, RMR, CRR,
24 Deputy Official Court Reporter,
Sixth Judicial Circuit of Florida.
25
44
1 APPEARANCES:
2 MR. KENNAN G. DANDAR
DANDAR & DANDAR
3 5340 West Kennedy Blvd., Suite 201
Tampa, FL 33602
4 Attorneys for Plaintiff.
5 MR. LUKE CHARLES LIROT
LUKE CHARLES LIROT, PA
6 112 N East Street, Street, Suite B
Tampa, FL 33602-4108
7 Attorney for Plaintiff
8 MR. KENDRICK MOXON
MOXON & KOBRIN
9 1100 Cleveland Street, Suite 900
Clearwater, FL 33755
10 Attorney for Church of Scientology Flag Service
Organization.
11
MR. LEE FUGATE and
12 MR. MORRIS WEINBERG, JR.
ZUCKERMAN, SPAEDER
13 101 E. Kennedy Blvd, Suite 1200
Tampa, FL 33602-5147
14 Attorneys for Church of Scientology Flag Service
Organization.
15
MR. ERIC M. LIEBERMAN
16 RABINOWITZ, BOUDIN, STANDARD
740 Broadway at Astor Place
17 New York, NY 10003-9518
Attorney for Church of Scientology Flag Service
18 Organization.
19 MR. MICHAEL LEE HERTZBERG
740 Broadway, Fifth Floor
20 New York, New York 10003
Attorney for Church of Scientology Flag Service
21 Organization.
22 MR. LANSING C. SCRIVEN
442 W Kennedy Blvd Ste 280
23 Tampa Florida 33606-1464
Attorney for Michael Garko.
24
25
45
1 INDEX TO PROCEEDINGS AND EXHIBITS
2 PAGE LINE
3 Recess 114 15
CROSS Mr. Dandar 127 20
4 Recess 178 8
Recess 199 14
5 Reporter's Certificate 200 1
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
46
1 THE COURT: Good morning. Are we ready to get
2 started?
3 MR. DANDAR: Yes.
4 MR. WEINBERG: Yes.
5 MR. FUGATE: We're going to have to get another
6 binder, but that's June 10th.
7 THE COURT: Thank you.
8 Ms. Yingling, you want to resume the stand?
9 THE WITNESS: Yes, your Honor.
10 THE COURT: You may continue.
11 MR. WEINBERG: The first thing I wanted to
12 address, your Honor, is the request to produce the
13 .
14 THE COURT: Okay. I haven't seen that, but I
15 guess --
16 MR. WEINBERG: Well, I just wanted -- well, I
17 wanted to say something. And I may make this easy.
18 I'm not sure why, but the -- I believe what
19 Mr. -- whoever it was yesterday -- Mr. Howie -- that
20 these notes -- that notes of the lawyers are work
21 product. And I really believe that. And -- and I
22 really don't think that it is appropriate for them
23 to be produced.
24 But Mr. Rosen's -- some of his notes were
25 produced, and some of -- of Mr. Jonas's notes were
47
1 produced. And we're prepared to produce the notes
2 of Ms. Yingling from the 28th and 29th, on the
3 condition, however, that -- that we object; that --
4 I mean, this should not be viewed as any waiver of
5 any work product whatsoever.
6 Ms. Yingling is here answering questions about
7 what happened in these meetings, and these notes
8 reflect her notes of what she heard at the meeting.
9 But I want to make sure that by producing the notes
10 that I have not set some precedent that my notes or
11 Mr. Fugate's notes or anybody else's notes, you
12 know, ought to be produced. Because I don't think
13 they should be produced.
14 So with that condition and that understanding,
15 we will produce the notes.
16 And I wanted to review some of them with
17 Ms. Yingling, because this is actually -- her
18 secretary, as is her practice, took her notes and
19 typed them. And there's -- you know. So this is a
20 typed thing, but --
21 THE COURT: All right. I would think this is a
22 most unusual hearing. And frankly, the other notes
23 that were produced were produced for a very obvious
24 purpose, which was that the witness couldn't
25 remember and we thought the notes might help. The
48
1 lawyers didn't object. And I think they probably
2 are helpful.
3 Certainly this is no precedent even to remotely
4 think in the future or at any other hearing that a
5 lawyer's notes should just normally be produced.
6 You're right. Normally that is something that is
7 work product, is not produced.
8 If you're willing to and if it's helpful,
9 that's fine. It is not precedent.
10 MR. WEINBERG: Okay. And I take it that's
11 the -- it's not precedent and that's --
12 MR. DANDAR: No. We agree it's not precedent.
13 THE COURT: Okay.
14 MR. DANDAR: And I believe, though, we asked
15 more than just the March 28th and 29th.
16 MR. WEINBERG: Well, you're not getting any
17 more than March 28th and 29th. I'm producing the
18 March 28th and 29th notes.
19 MR. DANDAR: I think the April 6th and 7th
20 notes would be very pivotal. That's when things
21 really changed.
22 THE COURT: I just wonder under what theory you
23 think you're entitled to lawyers' notes.
24 MR. DANDAR: I don't care about the lawyers'
25 mental impressions. What I care about are their
49
1 notetaking of what they're saying to Mr. Minton,
2 which is not privileged, and what Mr. Minton is
3 saying back to them, since a lawyer is not present
4 on April 6th and 7th. And of course, April 28th and
5 29th is the same reason they're talking. It's not a
6 privileged communication if they're taking down
7 notes of what's being said back and forth.
8 I think it's very important.
9 MR. WEINBERG: First of all, there are no notes
10 of April 6th and 7th. And I want to -- Ms. Yingling
11 will confirm there are no notes of April 6th and
12 7th.
13 THE WITNESS: The only notes I have are from
14 the meetings in New York on the 28th and 29th.
15 THE COURT: All right.
16 MR. WEINBERG: Beyond that, I don't think, if
17 there were notes, that those should be produced at
18 this time. I think those are work product.
19 THE COURT: Well, I don't think we need to
20 worry about that.
21 MR. WEINBERG: All right.
22 THE COURT: I try never to make rulings I don't
23 have to make. They've said there aren't any, and
24 that's --
25 MR. DANDAR: We also requested notes from the
50
1 Church of Scientology. And Mr. Rinder was there.
2 So if counsel can say there are no notes from him
3 either, then I'll sit down.
4 MR. WEINBERG: I'm not --
5 MR. DANDAR: I'll sit down anyway.
6 MR. WEINBERG: I'm not speaking for Mr. Rinder,
7 so -- I don't know.
8 THE COURT: Then we'll deal with that motion to
9 produce at the appropriate time.
10 MR. WEINBERG: All right. Let me hand these --
11 Should I mark these? Well, she's not here.
12 But when she comes, I should mark it?
13 THE COURT: I think so, because the other sets
14 have been marked.
15 MR. WEINBERG: When she comes we'll put a
16 number on it.
17 MR. FUGATE: She may have her list that'll tell
18 us what the number is.
19 No, she doesn't.
20 THE COURT: I would hesitate to be so bold --
21 Yesterday the set of notes from Mr. Rosen was
22 Defendant's 185, but I don't remember if anything
23 was admitted after that or not, so --
24 MR. FUGATE: I don't either.
25 THE COURT: Oh, and by the way, I finally got
51
1 around to reading the paper last night. I always
2 read the paper in the morning but I didn't have time
3 yesterday.
4 Mr. Dandar, I see where you said to the
5 reporter that the trial, it was scheduled for April,
6 and then you were quoted as saying probably
7 September.
8 MR. DANDAR: Well, that's -- I was -- you said
9 that -- or I said it was going to be hopefully in
10 August, but most likely in September, because I
11 think that's what you told us.
12 THE COURT: Well, I set it for August, and I
13 said to you all if you could see that that was not
14 going to happen, if there was a trial, that it
15 wasn't going to happen in August, I need to know as
16 soon as possible. Because I don't want to set it
17 for August and I -- and then find out that you all
18 can't be ready in August, if the trial goes at all.
19 If you -- if we can't be ready for August, if that's
20 unrealistic, we need to move it now to September.
21 MR. DANDAR: Would August trial jury selection
22 start the second week of August?
23 THE COURT: The second week of August.
24 MR. DANDAR: I don't see --
25 THE COURT: Although the chief judge is asking
52
1 me to consider setting a special trial week, which
2 would have to be the third week in August, most
3 likely.
4 MR. WEINBERG: It would be very nice if we were
5 to, for whatever reason, because of --
6 THE COURT: Bring in a special panel. Because
7 it's --
8 Frankly, like I told you before, my preference
9 would be to probably bring in panels every day,
10 because my intention will be to use my ability to
11 weed out early on. In other words, "How many of you
12 all can be here for the next two months?" That's
13 going to weed out a whole bunch of folks that are
14 going to have legitimate reasons why they can't be
15 here for two months.
16 I'll handle some publicity stuff if we get
17 there.
18 So I prefer, on cases like that, to have panels
19 every day, and then once we get a real legitimate
20 panel, then we can, you know, let the lawyers pick.
21 MR. DANDAR: The plaintiff would -- is -- the
22 preference of the plaintiff is to start as soon as
23 possible. If that is the third week of August
24 rather than the first week of August --
25 THE COURT: Not the first week.
53
1 MR. DANDAR: All right.
2 THE COURT: The most it can be is the second
3 week. And I've told you that.
4 MR. DANDAR: All right.
5 THE COURT: That's when the jury trial week is.
6 MR. DANDAR: Then we would urge the court to
7 put it on the second week.
8 THE COURT: That's when it's set.
9 MR. DANDAR: All right.
10 THE COURT: But as I said when I read that,
11 you're saying probably September, I'm wondering,
12 well, wonder if you know something I don't.
13 MR. DANDAR: No. I was just going by what you
14 said, Judge. You said to let you know right away if
15 we're not going to start in August, because you
16 would be really upset to have it set and not start.
17 And I'm urging the court and I -- we're ready
18 to go the second week of August.
19 THE COURT: Well, if there's a trial, then it
20 will remain set the second week of August.
21 MR. DANDAR: All right.
22 MR. WEINBERG: But it would have been nice to
23 spend a little time in August doing -- doing
24 something other than being in trial. But if that's
25 it, that's it.
54
1 You know, I think the other exhibit -- I was
2 looking at my list. And I keep a list of exhibits.
3 But when I was -- I marked two things in front of --
4 for Dr. Garko: The letter --
5 THE COURT: Yes.
6 MR. WEINBERG: -- and the agreement. So I
7 think after that, that would be the last two things,
8 so --
9 THE COURT: Well, we'll just -- we'll say --
10 we'll say they're Number 188 then.
11 MR. FUGATE: Judge, I think it's going to
12 ultimately be 191, but we'll check with the clerk.
13 MR. WEINBERG: Whatever. When the clerk --
14 MR. FUGATE: Mr. Scriven -- there were these I
15 think that also went in with Mr. Garko --
16 THE COURT: Doesn't matter. Let's just call
17 them the notes.
18 MR. FUGATE: Okay.
19 BY MR. WEINBERG:
20 Q I'm showing you what will ultimately have some
21 exhibit number on it --
22 THE COURT: Mm-hmm.
23 BY MR. WEINBERG:
24 Q -- which is entitled Notes for Meeting in Sandy
25 Rosen's Office.
55
1 And can you, first, Ms. Yingling describe what
2 this 14-page document is?
3 A This is a transcription of notes that I took
4 during the meetings in -- in New York on March 28th and
5 March 29th.
6 As is my usual practice, if I take notes at a
7 meeting, I leave them for my secretary to type. And she
8 does a pretty good job with my handwriting. But you will
9 see that this is full of typographical errors, and also
10 transcription errors. I have not edited them in any way.
11 This is exactly how they came off the machine.
12 And so just if you just look at the top, I
13 probably said "notes from" or "notes of" as opposed to
14 "notes for," because they certainly weren't notes done in
15 anticipation. And -- and then the second name is -- says
16 "Mike Rosen," when in actually it was Mike Rinder. And the
17 third name says "Stephen Jones" when in actuality it was
18 "Stephen Jonas." I believe Stacy Brooks' name may be
19 spelled wrong.
20 And I think throughout we'll see that there are
21 lots of typographical errors, and some transcription errors
22 as well.
23 Q All right. If you could just sort of look at the
24 March -- the notes from March 28, 2002.
25 And let me first ask you, during the meeting, were
56
1 you primarily taking notes as opposed to being the speaker?
2 A I didn't speak very much during the meeting, so --
3 Q And if you -- if you look at this when it says,
4 "The Mike Rinder list," is that what you were trying to
5 describe yesterday was sort of how the meeting started, when
6 Mike Rinder listed a number of things that he wanted to
7 accomplish in the meeting?
8 A Yes.
9 Q And when it says, like, "Mike Rinder list, number
10 1, O/S," what is that?
11 A Outstanding litigation.
12 Q And when you get to number 2 and it says,
13 "Declarations and affidavits, Jesse, Stacy, Vaughn, in order
14 to not have been used in the future," and it says, "Mike
15 Rinder, question of how to do it more than principle --" I
16 guess "principle" is misspelled there, probably, right?
17 A Yes.
18 Q What did that mean?
19 A It meant what I had testified to yesterday: That
20 this was a concern that there were declarations and
21 affidavits that had been prepared by witnesses that the
22 church believed Mr. Minton controlled, because he had paid
23 them to write these affidavits. And that as part of any
24 overall disengagement, there would have to be some
25 resolution of these affidavits so that they could not pick
57
1 up -- or pop up in future litigation and cause the parties
2 to become in controversy again.
3 Q If you go to page 2, after --
4 THE COURT: Again, I would assume since this is
5 Mr. Rinder speaking, this is Mr. Rinder's opinion,
6 that he felt they had been paid, and therefore --
7 THE WITNESS: Oh, absolutely, your Honor.
8 THE COURT: Right.
9 THE WITNESS: Absolutely. This was the
10 church's view --
11 THE COURT: Right.
12 THE WITNESS: -- yes, your Honor.
13 BY MR. WEINBERG:
14 Q I want to make this clear. Have you been through
15 your notes, and these notes basically reflect what --
16 what -- what you believe you heard during the meeting, is
17 that right?
18 A Yes. Although I may well have interpreted things
19 because of my knowledge of the subject area --
20 Q Right.
21 A -- or my knowledge of the church or whatever. So
22 in that sense, it's -- I wasn't just taking down word for
23 word. It was my interpretation of -- of what was going on,
24 and my impressions as well.
25 Q Okay. Well, at the top of the second page, when
58
1 it says, "Parameters of settlements: Mutual releases, no
2 funding," and then it says, "No stirring of press, et
3 cetera," what does that mean? What did you take -- what was
4 Mr. Rinder talking about?
5 A That there would be no public statements made
6 by -- by either side about the views or opinions of the
7 other.
8 Q Okay. Now, under the -- on the paragraph that
9 says, "Mike Rinder thinks BM --"
10 Obviously BM is Bob Minton, is that right?
11 A That's correct.
12 Q Okay. And now SJ -- that would be Steve Jonas?
13 A That's correct.
14 Q Okay. And -- and you indicate there that -- that
15 Steve Jonas, "best to hear specifics of litigation, then
16 they should caucus." And that pretty much reflects what you
17 had recalled yesterday, that they let you set forth your
18 position and they went and talked before they said anything?
19 A Right. They wanted to hear what our view was of
20 the litigation that Bob Minton was involved in.
21 Q Now -- now in the notes, the next thing says Sandy
22 Rosen. And -- and what is that? Is it -- is this the part
23 of the meeting where Mr. Rosen then goes through the various
24 cases?
25 A That's correct.
59
1 Q Okay. And it says, "This is list of what Bob
2 Minton has caused either by funding or providing Ws --" is
3 that witnesses?
4 A Yes, it is.
5 Q "-- et cetera."
6 And was that essentially what Mr. Rosen said;
7 that -- that we believe -- whether they're right or not, we
8 believe that Mr. Minton has given money or has provided
9 witnesses that have caused this litigation to take place and
10 caused ultimately damage to the church?
11 A Yes. And he did specifically use the word
12 "damage." I don't know if it's in the notes, but I do
13 remember his saying that this was a -- the church's
14 estimation of the damage that Mr. Minton had caused.
15 Q Now, on the -- it says, "Wrongful death." And
16 it's got some numbers there. What are those numbers?
17 A What Mr. -- Mr. Rosen did was provide an estimate
18 of the amount that the church had expended to date, which
19 would have been the A category with respect to whatever the
20 subject matter was, and an estimate of additional amounts
21 that would be spent if the matters continued to go forward.
22 Q Okay. And then it indicates that, "Motion being
23 prepared to bring Minton into case," and then it talks about
24 Judge Schaeffer's comment, "Provides copy of motion." Do
25 you recall what that was?
60
1 A That had to do with the counterclaim and the
2 question of adding Mr. Minton as a defendant to the
3 counterclaim. And I believe Mr. Rosen explained that Judge
4 Schaeffer had made the comment, I believe, from the bench,
5 to the effect that she believed Minton should be added to
6 the counterclaim, and that if the church didn't do it,
7 perhaps she would.
8 Q Okay. And then the next case was the breach case.
9 And there was some suggestion -- where it says, "Breach at
10 BM's request," at Minton's request, the implication at least
11 from Mr. Rosen was that -- is that the breach was caused by
12 Minton, or that was the church's belief?
13 A That's correct.
14 THE COURT: I think -- I think, you know, some
15 of this is fairly obvious, based on what she
16 testified to yesterday.
17 MR. WEINBERG: Okay.
18 THE COURT: I mean, this --
19 MR. WEINBERG: I'm not going to go through it
20 all.
21 THE COURT: Good. Because if she wants to be
22 out of here by 4, I want to make sure Mr. Dandar has
23 his time and --
24 MR. WEINBERG: No. I just wanted to get a
25 start --
61
1 THE COURT: Okay.
2 MR. WEINBERG: -- then I was going to skip
3 ahead.
4 BY MR. WEINBERG:
5 Q If you go to page 3, under, "Wollersheim --"
6 A Yes.
7 Q -- where it says LW, is that Larry Wollersheim?
8 A Yes, it is.
9 Q Is that what that is?
10 Okay. And then under Henson, where it says KH,
11 that would be Keith Henson.
12 A That's correct.
13 Q Those are his initials?
14 A Yes.
15 Q And then also under Henson, it says, "Barry."
16 That would be the lawyer Graham Berry?
17 A Yes.
18 Q And DC. Maybe I'm not -- what's DC, do you know?
19 A No, I don't.
20 Q You think it might be DL, Dan Leipold?
21 A It could be. It could be a typographical error.
22 Q Okay. And then down under Ward, there's some
23 initials there, FG and DL. Would that be Ford Greene and
24 Dan Leipold?
25 A That's correct.
62
1 Q Okay. All right. If you go to page 5, under the
2 Nonlitigation Cases Demonstrations, et cetera, this is what
3 you're talking about yesterday was the whole category that
4 didn't have anything to do with -- with actual cases, but
5 was more expenses that the church said they had to -- to --
6 had to expand, is that right?
7 A Yes. And -- and primarily the -- the security
8 expenses had to do with picketing that Mr. Minton was
9 involved in, or had organized, or the church believed that
10 he had organized, and -- and money that the church had paid
11 for security for their staff and --
12 Q Okay.
13 A -- and their property in those situations.
14 Q Now, if you look toward the bottom of that page --
15 THE COURT: What page are you on, Mr. --
16 MR. WEINBERG: Page 5.
17 THE COURT: Okay.
18 MR. WEINBERG: Under Nonlitigation Cases.
19 THE COURT: Yes.
20 MR. WEINBERG: And if you go, Judge, there is
21 an SR.
22 BY MR. WEINBERG:
23 Q It says, "SR purpose. Magnitude of what Bob
24 Minton involved in." And right under that are the initials
25 SJ, which is Mr. Jonas. And that would indicate that
63
1 Mr. Jonas said something, is that right?
2 A Yes. That's correct.
3 Q And would this be sort of the end of Mr. Rosen's
4 presentation?
5 A Yes. I believe so. Then there were some
6 questions that Mr. Jonas asked about some of the litigation.
7 Q Okay. Specifically, can you just look where it
8 says, "Steve Jonas, two purposes. Magnitude re RICO case,"
9 which is referred to earlier with the $40,000 research, "and
10 out-of-pocket costs. We get that." Do you recall what
11 that -- what Mr. Jonas was saying there?
12 A What he was saying -- what happened was Bob Minton
13 asked for a total of -- of what the -- of what the damages
14 were that had been -- had been recounted by -- by Mr. --
15 Mr. Rosen. And I recall that Mr. -- Mr. Jonas sort of
16 dismissed him and said, "Oh, we don't need a total. We know
17 why they're giving you these amounts." It would show -- you
18 know, they said that they -- they had done some research
19 about a RICO case, and this would give them some measure of
20 damages. And also they're trying to tell you how much money
21 they've actually spent from things that you've been involved
22 in.
23 So it was sort of his response to Bob Minton and
24 cutting Bob Minton off when he -- when he asked for a total.
25 Q Okay. Now, if you go to the next page, where it
64
1 says -- there's this break. And then is this when Mr. Jonas
2 comes back and starts laying forth or setting forth what
3 their position is?
4 A That's -- that's correct.
5 Q Now, specifically, under Wrongful Death, is
6 this -- is this what Mr. Jonas is saying, "When you say no
7 money or other support, withdrawal of JP," which I assume is
8 Jesse Prince, is that right? "And SB," which is Stacy
9 Brooks, "affidavits; commit not to be witnesses; effort to
10 try to exert influence over Dandar and Liebreich to resolve
11 matter," is that notes of what Mr. Jonas said?
12 A Yes. That is what Mr. Jonas said that they would
13 have no problem doing.
14 Q And then he -- he -- but he adds, but he can't
15 commit to making the case go away.
16 A That's correct.
17 Q Okay. Now, on page 7, where -- skipping down a
18 little bit, it says "Affidavits. Commit to no further
19 affidavits."
20 If Mr. Jonas -- is it your recollection -- do
21 these notes reflect that Mr. Jonas is saying they would
22 agree they wouldn't be providing any more affidavits in
23 these cases?
24 A I believe so.
25 Q And was it -- was -- and during this meeting, did
65
1 it -- was Mr. Jonas -- you know, with regard to this and
2 some other things we've seen in the notes, appear to be
3 speaking not only for Stacy Brooks and Bob Minton but also
4 for -- for Jesse Prince?
5 A Stacy Brooks and Bob Minton, certainly. But at
6 the -- at the outset, there had been some discussion earlier
7 on where Mr. Jonas said that of the people that we were
8 concerned about, with respect to affidavits and so on, that
9 they couldn't control all of those people, but they could
10 control Jesse Prince and -- and Stacy Brooks. And probably
11 Grady Ward, was my recollection. Those three.
12 Q Now, a little bit further, down right before
13 the -- the Ward section on page 7, we start -- there is a
14 reference to LW or Larry Wollersheim. "Need to skip over
15 this issue for the moment. Haven't decided what could be
16 done or what commitment." And then -- and then there is
17 this -- and I wanted to ask you about it -- "BM," or Bob
18 Minton, "has money in LW," or Larry Wollersheim, "case, and
19 looking to get it back. Doesn't know how. Could be
20 assignment to us of lien and then we pay 750,000 to him, end
21 quote, some form."
22 What is that that Mr. Jonas was saying?
23 A Mr. Jonas was talking in general about the Larry
24 Wollersheim case, and didn't know exactly what Bob Minton
25 could do to try to help resolve this matter. So I had said
66
1 yesterday this is a matter that the church had been trying
2 to settle for some time. And -- by paying the total
3 judgment. And Mr. Wollersheim had refused to accept
4 payment. And -- and Mr. Minton didn't know what he could do
5 to help, but he -- Mr. Jonas made the suggestion that
6 somehow Bob Minton wanted his money out of the case, and
7 that maybe the church should pay him. That's what that was
8 there.
9 Q Okay. You go to page 8, there is -- it says,
10 "Steve Jonas sort of in the middle. SJ, what they need."
11 And then under that it says, "Withdrawal of all claims,
12 investigations, et cetera, re Bob Minton's activities in
13 Nigeria caused the withdrawal of claims brought by the
14 Nigerian government." Is that your recollection essentially
15 of what Mr. Jonas was asking the church to do?
16 A Yes. I don't know that he specifically said that,
17 but that was my impression, that somehow he thought the
18 church could control the Nigerian government. And as I
19 said, later on in the meeting, Mike Rinder made it clear
20 that that wasn't correct.
21 Q Okay. And under that it says, "Stacy away
22 provision." I take it -- is that stay-away provision?
23 A I think that probably should say "stay-away
24 provision," right.
25 Q Okay. And then --
67
1 THE COURT: I think maybe I need to ask a
2 question here.
3 MR. WEINBERG: Sure.
4 THE COURT: In reading -- my recollection in
5 reading Stacy Brooks' lengthy -- I can't even
6 remember what she called it, but it had to do with
7 what she perceived was the church's harassment.
8 MR. WEINBERG: Oh, the time line.
9 THE COURT: The time line of Mr. Minton.
10 Throughout that, as I would read it, there
11 would be notations that they believed, I gather --
12 she and Mr. Minton believed that the church was
13 somehow trying to influence the Nigerian government;
14 that -- or -- saying things over there, that
15 Mr. Minton had done something illegal or improper.
16 Was -- was this in any way some suggestion that
17 that would stop or that -- was that part of the
18 harassment? Or was this a specific request that
19 they made that they thought the church could
20 influence the Nigerian government to whatever they
21 were thinking of doing; not do it?
22 THE WITNESS: I think it was probably a
23 combination of both. You know, just as the church
24 had its opinions of what Mr. Minton was doing,
25 Mr. Minton and Ms. Brooks had their opinions of what
68
1 the -- the church was doing. And they -- they
2 believed that there was, you know, ongoing
3 surveillance and information-providing and so on by
4 the church of -- of Mr. Minton.
5 And so they were talking both in general of any
6 investigations that the church had ongoing about
7 Mr. Minton, or any investigations perhaps that
8 government officials had that the church was somehow
9 providing information to. I think it was in that
10 context --
11 THE COURT: Okay.
12 THE WITNESS: -- that they were talking about
13 the Nigerian situation.
14 THE COURT: All right. Thank you.
15 BY MR. WEINBERG:
16 Q Amongst the demands -- again, this is what
17 Mr. Jonas is saying on page 8, is that right?
18 A Yes.
19 MR. WEINBERG: Right under that, your Honor,
20 there is a -- and Ms. Yingling -- it says, "Amongst
21 the demands of what they need, all litigation and
22 claims go away, discovery, contempt, et cetera."
23 BY MR. WEINBERG:
24 Q Is this the part of the meeting where there was a
25 discussion, at least for the first time, that what they were
69
1 requesting is that everything down here in Florida be
2 withdrawn?
3 A Yes. And not just in Florida, but any other
4 litigation that -- that Mr. Minton was involved in. The --
5 the desire to have all the cases go away was mutual. That
6 was the one thing that the parties seemed to agree -- agree
7 to during this -- during this meeting, that both sides
8 wanted all litigation and claims against each other to go
9 away.
10 Q And then you say -- you indicate that Mr. Jonas
11 said, "We too have compensation elements if we want
12 disengagement. Bob Minton compensated for his payments in
13 McPherson case, payments to Dandar." And is that what you
14 were talking about yesterday where they were actually asking
15 for money?
16 A Yes. Exactly. Exactly. I think that was -- the
17 payment to Dandar was probably a question from either
18 Mr. Rosen or Mr. Rinder. And Mr. Jonas responded, "Yes."
19 Q And then he further explained what they were
20 talking about, which -- which I think you said yesterday,
21 and your notes indicate the properties that the church was
22 supposed to purchase in Clearwater, including the LMT
23 building. And it says, "JP." That's Jesse Prince, right?
24 A Jesse Prince. And I think the word "bonuses"
25 there should be "house." I think it should be "JP house, et
70
1 cetera."
2 And I think it's clear these were just an
3 illustration of the things that Bob Minton wanted to be
4 compensated for.
5 Q Okay. Now, if you go to page 9, Mr. Rinder is now
6 talking again. Is that what the MR is?
7 A That's correct.
8 Q And it -- one, two, three, four -- five lines down
9 it says, "re wrongful death case. We will not pay you. But
10 I understood it as offset." Do you -- what do you recall
11 that was about?
12 A Well, as I said yesterday, we were quite
13 surprised, being the church representatives, that -- that
14 Mr. Minton would suggest that somehow the church should
15 compensate him for the payments he had made to fund the
16 litigation down here in Florida. So this -- that was a
17 response to that.
18 Q Okay. And then -- and then a couple lines down,
19 it -- it says, "BM," or Bob Minton, "dreaming if thinks we
20 will pay money." So is that indicated that Mr. Minton said
21 that you all are dreaming if you think he's going to pay
22 money?
23 A I think -- I think that was the tone from both
24 sides of the table.
25 Q Okay.
71
1 A That the other side was dreaming if they thought
2 money was going to change hands.
3 Q Now, there is -- can you -- one thing we didn't
4 talk about yesterday, at this point in the notes, it talks
5 about -- where it says "MR. Maybe you are not aware of
6 where this litigation --" says "standards." I think that's
7 probably "stands." And then there's a discussion between
8 Mr. Rinder and -- and Mr. Minton with regard to that. Can
9 you tell us what that was?
10 A Yes. Because Mr. -- Mr. Rosen and Mr. Rinder made
11 it clear that the cases in Florida were -- were taking a
12 turn towards the church being in a position to -- to recover
13 damages, whereas they had been a defendant in the wrongful
14 death litigation because of the -- of the breach cases, they
15 had damage awards; they were looking to get substantial
16 attorneys' fees awards. And -- and they were explaining
17 that to -- to Mr. Minton.
18 And they were also explaining to him the posture
19 of -- of the discovery request, and that it was the church's
20 view that for -- for years, literally, the -- the estate and
21 Mr. Dandar had been successful in stonewalling discovery
22 requests by the church, but that that was all starting to
23 change, and that the -- the church was starting to get
24 responses to its discovery, or at least they were being
25 ordered by the courts, and that the church was on the brink
72
1 of uncovering what they believed to be discovery abuse,
2 abuse of process and -- and so on.
3 And I remember this discussion because Mr. Minton,
4 throughout the -- throughout the meeting, had been very
5 calm. I -- I didn't -- I never knew Mr. Minton before this.
6 I had seen perhaps some video clips of him and so on. And
7 I'll have to say I didn't have a very high opinion of him.
8 And -- but he was calm and a perfect gentleman during the --
9 the meeting. Except for during this exchange. He -- he
10 raised his voice. And I recall he looked at Mr. Rosen and
11 he said, "Why do I have to hear from you the things that are
12 going on in the case? Why don't I hear them from my own
13 lawyers," and -- meaning the discovery and the contempt
14 and -- you know, and so on.
15 And I'm not -- I don't know that I recall exactly
16 what Mr. Rosen said, but something like, "Well, perhaps you
17 have bad lawyers," or something along those lines.
18 But it was clear that Mr. Minton was not happy
19 that he was hearing about things that were going to happen
20 to him in discovery and in the proceedings from the church.
21 THE COURT: Could it have also been that
22 Mr. Minton became a little bit alarmed and a little
23 bit upset when he realized the discovery was going
24 to indeed continue, and that perhaps he had things
25 that were going to be revealed that would not be
73
1 terribly --
2 There may have been more than one reason. You
3 don't know, of course, why he was upset.
4 THE WITNESS: No, your Honor.
5 THE COURT: But the discovery, the fact that
6 that was continuing, was a point that upset him, I
7 take it, or --
8 THE WITNESS: I believe it was, your Honor. I
9 believe it was.
10 THE COURT: Okay.
11 BY MR. WEINBERG:
12 Q Okay. If you go to page 10, there is a
13 reference -- well, at the bottom of page 9, Mr. Rinder, you
14 indicate, says, "We're not going to pay you money. Money
15 will flow the other way." And then at the top of page 10,
16 there's -- you have a reference, "BM," or Bob Minton, "If we
17 settle cases, money will go back to him, LW, DL. Not saying
18 having to write him a check." Can you explain what that is?
19 It's not clear to -- it's not clear to me.
20 A Well, certainly the -- the reference to LW was if
21 the church were to settle the Lawrence Wollersheim case,
22 that money would flow back to him through his lien.
23 With respect to the second phrase there, I'm not
24 exactly sure. I would assume that --
25 Oh --
74
1 Q Is that Dan Leipold?
2 A Yes. That was Dan Leipold. It was referring to
3 the Wollersheim case. And that Dan Leipold, who apparently
4 had borrowed money from -- from Mr. Minton, would also be
5 paid.
6 Q Okay. If you go to page 11 --
7 Hold on just a second. There's a break and
8 then -- that's the break where -- where people never came
9 back? Is that what happened?
10 A No. This was still on the first day. And this is
11 when Mr. Jonas said that they talked, and they weren't sure
12 whether it would be fruitful to meet the next day. But he
13 said that they should make some phone calls and get a sense
14 of what they could resolve.
15 Q Okay. If you go to page 13, which is March 29th.
16 Those are rather brief notes. At the -- toward the top of
17 the page, there's a reference to, "Meeting scheduled for
18 Wednesday with Dandar." This is something that Mr. Jonas
19 told you all at the meeting?
20 A That's correct. And I believe he said it was
21 going to be in Cleveland.
22 Q And -- well, let's start at the top of it. Do
23 these notes reflect your recollection that, on this second
24 day, that it was really Mr. Jonas that was reporting back of
25 where they stood?
75
1 A That's correct.
2 Q And so when it says "SJ" at the top, "Have thought
3 about what was discussed yesterday, that I think the best
4 thing is to proceed, small steps. Understand why case is
5 essential and need to make efforts there. Won't happen
6 overnight. Some steps already." And then he's talking
7 about a meeting with Mr. Dandar.
8 Did he further explain what steps had been taken
9 during the meeting?
10 A I believe he told us that they had called Ken
11 Dandar, and that this meeting was scheduled. I don't think
12 that there were any other specific steps taken, although
13 they did tell us that they would speak with Dell Liebreich.
14 But in order to bring her into the discussions, we had to --
15 the church had to agree not to make any inquiry into those
16 discussions at any deposition.
17 Q All right. And then in your notes after that
18 request, which all agreed to, not to make an inquiry, the
19 second request indicated in here is that, "They are willing
20 to take steps, and they are extraordinary. But to do that,
21 we have to dismiss, one, contempt matters against Bob
22 Minton; and two, postpone --" and I guess it indicates
23 Stacy's deposition.
24 I mean, is that essentially the way it happened
25 during the meeting?
76
1 A Yes. And then they went on to say that they
2 wanted Bob Minton's deposition also postponed or -- or just
3 terminated.
4 Q Okay. And then the notes reflect that they were
5 told no. And without going over them in detail, indicate
6 that there was some displeasure on the part of Ms. Brooks
7 and Mr. Minton's side.
8 A That's correct.
9 Q Okay. You can put those down.
10 MR. WEINBERG: We have our clerk, so why don't
11 we figure out what the number is?
12 THE COURT: All right. Good idea.
13 MR. WEINBERG: The next number --
14 THE COURT: Good morning, Madam Clerk.
15 THE CLERK: Good morning.
16 THE COURT: Can you give us the number of those
17 notes, which would be the next exhibit for the
18 defendant?
19 THE CLERK: 191.
20 THE COURT: 191.
21 THE CLERK: Yes.
22 THE COURT: Thank you.
23 MR. WEINBERG: 91. So you were right.
24 THE COURT: 191.
25 MR. WEINBERG: 191.
77
1 BY MR. WEINBERG:
2 Q Now, let's try to -- I'm not sure exactly how far
3 I'd gotten yesterday. I know we talked about -- some about
4 April 10th. And you had said something about Bob Minton
5 having to leave early because his favorite aunt had died.
6 A That's correct.
7 Q But what I can't remember is whether you discussed
8 any of the details; if you remembered any of the details,
9 from April 10th.
10 So let me -- if I -- if I've already gone over
11 that, which I sort of think we did, but -- I apologize.
12 But do you -- you said it was a short meeting
13 because of Mr. Minton's family situation. But do you
14 remember anything specifically about that meeting on April
15 the 10th?
16 A As I said yesterday, some of the meetings sort of
17 blend together, so I'm not sure if I can pinpoint exactly
18 what conversations we had at which meetings.
19 I do remember at this meeting that we did talk
20 about the checks again. The church was very interested in
21 getting copies of these Swiss checks. So we did talk about
22 that. And then I believe we also talked about who Fred was.
23 Because at Mr. -- Mr. Minton's testimony in front of Judge
24 Baird the day before, he had mentioned something about
25 Mr. Dandar referring to him as Fred. And so we asked him
78
1 who Fred was, and he explained to -- to -- to us that that
2 was Mr. Dandar's pet name for him when he wanted to refer to
3 money coming from Bob Minton, from offshore sources.
4 Q It was Mr. Dandar's pet name for Bob Minton.
5 A That's correct. Mm-hmm.
6 Q All right. Now, after April 10th, what is the
7 next time that you can recall that you had any meetings with
8 Mr. Minton?
9 A On Saturday, April the 13th.
10 Q In between April 10th and April 13th, you were --
11 you were off doing other things?
12 A Yes. I was in Washington, D.C.
13 Q Now --
14 THE COURT: Did it -- I just have to ask --
15 MR. WEINBERG: Sure.
16 THE COURT: -- this one question.
17 Did it -- did it ever seem strange to you -- I
18 don't know how much you know about Mr. Minton and
19 his Fifth Amendment and his offshore moneys and his
20 failures to report, and on and on.
21 Did it ever occur to you that it might be odd
22 that he would discuss with Mr. Dandar, who was not
23 his lawyer, the fact that moneys were coming into
24 this country from foreign banks; that at least one
25 might assume, since he's claiming the Fifth
79
1 Amendment, he had neglected to pay his taxes on;
2 that Dandar, not being -- he didn't disclose it to
3 his own lawyer, who would have some privilege --
4 Did it ever seem odd to you that he would
5 reveal this to -- to somebody who was not a lawyer?
6 THE WITNESS: As I sit here now, with -- I have
7 a lot more knowledge than I did when I was first
8 hearing these things from -- from Mr. Minton.
9 But I think that -- certainly what Mr. Minton
10 has said to us consistently, that the only reason
11 that he provided Mr. Dandar with this money from
12 offshore sources was because Mr. Dandar requested
13 it. Otherwise he would have continued to write
14 checks from his own personal checking account, as he
15 had done to the extent of a million or a
16 million-plus dollars; and that he would have
17 continued to do that, except that Mr. Dandar
18 specifically asked him for funds that were not
19 traceable.
20 See, I have my own views about what his tax
21 problems are. And I don't have enough information
22 or knowledge to come to an opinion whether he has
23 tax problems or not. But I think that when he
24 earned all this money overseas, that he didn't have
25 a tax problem. I think he probably had good lawyers
80
1 and good advice, who told him how to structure the
2 transactions so it was not income to him when he was
3 earning that money; that it was earned by
4 corporations or other entities, in other words,
5 and -- and so that he probably didn't have an income
6 tax problem.
7 The question then would arise whether, when he
8 brought it under this country, when he repatriated
9 the funds or took control of the funds, he was then
10 taxable on them. But I don't know. I mean, I have
11 no information to know one way or the other whether
12 he has declared that money on his income tax
13 returns.
14 I mean, certainly, if he was trying to hide it,
15 I don't know that he would use it to fund litigation
16 down here. I just don't know. I just don't have
17 enough information to know one way or another, if he
18 has income tax problems along those lines.
19 But I certainly believe, from my knowledge of
20 international tax, that he could have structured the
21 transactions, when he was earning the money from the
22 Nigerian deals, such that he wasn't liable to pay
23 U.S. income tax on it.
24 THE COURT: But would have been liable when he
25 brought it into this country. May have been.
81
1 THE WITNESS: May have been liable. That's
2 right. And he may have declared it on his income
3 tax returns. I don't know. But certainly he --
4 certainly some of the money that he was writing out
5 of his own personal checking account, he -- he must
6 have, I would think.
7 THE COURT: All right. Thank you.
8 BY MR. WEINBERG:
9 Q You said April 13th. Can you focus this as to a
10 day of the week? Are you able to do that?
11 A Yes. It was a Saturday.
12 Q And what -- where did -- was it the same
13 participants: You, Mr. Rinder, Ms. Brooks and -- and Bob
14 Minton?
15 A Yes.
16 Q And where was this meeting?
17 A This meeting was also in Mr. Pope's office.
18 Q Okay. And what were the circumstances of this
19 meeting?
20 A Well, there had been some telephone calls before
21 this meeting, that I was not a party to. But there were
22 some telephone calls between Mr. Rinder and Mr. Minton. And
23 Mr. Minton had told Mr. Rinder that he and Stacy Brooks were
24 going to meet with Jesse Prince that evening, and so they
25 were only going to see us for a short while in the
82
1 afternoon.
2 And they specifically asked Mr. Rinder if he could
3 provide a copy of the transcript from the court proceeding
4 in front of Judge Schaeffer where she had made comments on
5 the record about Mr. Prince's credibility.
6 Also there had been a couple of telephone
7 conversations earlier that day, I believe on the 13th,
8 between Mr. Minton's attorney, Mr. Jonas, and me.
9 Q And what was the nature of those --
10 THE COURT: I'm sorry. What day are we talking
11 about again?
12 MR. WEINBERG: 13th.
13 THE COURT: Thank you.
14 MR. WEINBERG: It was a Saturday, apparently.
15 THE COURT: Thank you.
16 BY MR. WEINBERG:
17 Q And what were the nature of those calls between
18 you and Mr. Jonas?
19 A Mr. Jonas had left a message for me on my
20 voicemail in Washington, D.C. And when I checked my
21 messages, I had a message from him asking me to call him.
22 And I did recall his call.
23 And he just made general inquiries of me, of what
24 was going on. He told me that he understood that Bob Minton
25 and Stacy wanted to -- to continue talking, and he
83
1 understood that they wanted to continue talking, and why.
2 But he made inquiries to me as to what was going on, and if
3 there was something specific -- some specific date that they
4 were giving us information for and things of that nature.
5 And I told him what I knew: That my understanding was that
6 Bob Minton felt that there was momentum in his telling his
7 story, and he wanted to continue to do that. And then
8 Mr. Jonas told me that he was going to speak with Bob
9 Minton.
10 After that, Mr. Minton called Mr. Rinder and said
11 he wanted to get together, and so I specifically called
12 Mr. Jonas back to tell him that. I didn't get him, but I
13 left a message on his voicemail machine to tell him that
14 Mr. Minton had called and said that he wanted to get
15 together with us again, and I wanted Mr. Jonas to know that.
16 During -- during the meeting that -- that -- that
17 afternoon, Mr. Minton told us that he had spoken to
18 Mr. Jonas, and that Mr. Jonas had told him -- him being
19 Mr. Minton -- that since he had gotten himself into this
20 mess, that perhaps it would be best for him to get himself
21 out of this mess alone.
22 Q So you continued meeting with him.
23 A Yes, sir.
24 Q Now -- and Mr. Jonas didn't tell you to stop
25 meeting with him?
84
1 A Mr. Jonas never told me to stop meeting with him,
2 no.
3 Q Do you remember what else if anything was
4 discussed on that Saturday?
5 A There were quite a few discussions about Jesse
6 Prince on that Saturday, because they were anticipating
7 having a meeting with Jesse Prince that evening.
8 And I believe it was during this meeting that
9 Stacy Brooks told us that she had been the -- the architect
10 of the -- of the strategy to add Mr. David Miscavige to --
11 to this -- to the wrongful death litigation. And she gave
12 us the background. She talked extensively about her history
13 and other litigation, and how she had developed a strategy,
14 and what it had come from, and so on and so forth. And --
15 and she told us about the circumstances under which Jesse
16 Prince's affidavit had been created, and -- and that the
17 affidavit was -- was purely speculation; that there was no
18 basis in fact and so on.
19 And they made it clear to us in that meeting
20 that -- that Jesse Prince was indeed somebody that Bob
21 Minton controlled. Because they explained to us at that
22 meeting that the reason that Jesse Prince had withdrawn as
23 an expert in -- an expert witness, I believe in this case,
24 was specifically because Bob Minton and Stacy Brooks had
25 told him to withdraw as a -- as a witness. And that they
85
1 believed that the motion that had subsequently been filed
2 by -- by Mr. Dandar, saying that the reason that Jesse
3 Prince had withdrawn, was that -- because he in some way was
4 terrified of the church, was completely false, and that they
5 were mortified that he had done that. And that he had asked
6 Jesse Prince to sign an affidavit admitting to a crime of
7 some sort, drug-related, I believe, something like that.
8 Q Now, do you -- is that pretty much the sum and
9 substance of the meeting, or is there anything else that you
10 can recall that Saturday?
11 A I'm sure we probably asked him for the checks
12 again.
13 Q All right. And you hadn't gotten them yet.
14 A We still had not received copies of the checks.
15 The -- if -- it may help to explain that the
16 dynamics of the -- sort of the level of trust between the
17 parties, you know, was changing as these meetings went on.
18 I think at the beginning there was a lot of mutual mistrust
19 on both sides. And the church, me included, didn't know
20 what to believe and was very skeptical about what Mr. Minton
21 was telling us. But as time went on and there were more
22 details and -- and more -- more discussions, I think that
23 the -- the level of trust on both sides really increased.
24 And Mr. Minton essentially told us that he -- he
25 felt that he had been used and lied to by the people that he
86
1 was -- was dealing with in this case. And I think he had a
2 sense that when he first started funding the case and was
3 involved in litigation, that he was involved in something
4 that was a righteous cause, and he somehow was doing the
5 right thing, you know, for -- for whatever reason. And I
6 think he came to believe -- and I don't know if it was
7 specifically at this meeting or one of the other meetings --
8 that that wasn't the case; that he had been involved in
9 something that was -- was not righteous, and in fact it was
10 quite to the contrary; that he was involved in something
11 that was very, very wrong, from his own personal
12 perspective.
13 And he apologized to me; he apologized to
14 Mr. Rinder. I know he's personally apologized to other
15 lawyers in this courtroom, because he's told me that. I
16 mean, he apparently has said some pretty vile things about
17 me on the Internet too. And so apologized. And I think he
18 felt that what he had believed to have been a good cause and
19 an idealistic matter that he was involved in wasn't, and
20 that the people that he was dealing with weren't really
21 idealistic or good or whatever, but that they were out to
22 get nothing but money; they were out to destroy the church;
23 and they were -- were using him to try to do that in the
24 process.
25 Q The -- now, he had to break early that evening to
87
1 have his meeting with Jesse Prince?
2 A That's correct.
3 Q And do you know -- when I said "evening," I don't
4 know if it was morning or evening. When were you all
5 meeting on --
6 A We met in the afternoon.
7 Q And do you know how long you were with him that
8 day on the -- the 13th?
9 A I'd say a few hours. I'm not sure if we met at
10 noon or 1:00 or something like that or -- but --
11 Q Okay.
12 A -- I know that they left before dark.
13 Q Do you recall when the next meeting was?
14 A Yes. It was on Monday, April the 15th.
15 Q Okay. And where was that meeting?
16 A That meeting was at Mr. Pope's office.
17 Q And who was present on that day?
18 A Mr. Rinder, Mr. (sic) Brooks, Mr. Minton. I was
19 present and Lee Fugate was present, and Tom McGowan.
20 Q And what was the -- can you describe for us what
21 happened over at Mr. Pope's office on the 15th when -- with
22 Mr. McGowan and -- present?
23 A The church, specifically Mike Rinder, provided
24 copies of deposition testimony and court transcripts to --
25 to Mr. McGowan on behalf of Stacy Brooks and directly to
88
1 Mr. Minton.
2 Mr. Howie was not able to attend the meeting. I
3 believe a set of the same documents was delivered to -- to
4 Mr. Howie's office.
5 There had been a request from Ms. Brooks and --
6 and Mr. Minton. They were concerned about the -- the
7 perjury that they had committed in these different matters
8 in this litigation, and they told us that their lawyers had
9 told them that they had to do recanting affidavits, but they
10 did not have access to their testimony. And the lawyers
11 that they were relying on, that being Mr. McGowan and
12 Mr. Howie, did not have enough familiarity with the cases --
13 they were relatively new -- to be able to give them advice
14 as to where they had committed perjury and -- and how to
15 recant it. So they had requested Mr. Rinder to provide them
16 with these documents.
17 And in fact, if I can go back to the telephone
18 conversation that I had with Steve Jonas on Saturday the
19 13th, he specifically requested also that the -- that we
20 provide Bob Minton with copies of transcripts and prior
21 testimony so that he could review it for purposes of -- of
22 executing a recanting affidavit.
23 Q And was -- so that was done at the -- at
24 Mr. Pope's office on the 15th.
25 A That's correct.
89
1 Q All right. And then what happened while you were
2 at Mr. Pope's office?
3 THE COURT: I'm sorry. Who did you say was
4 there at that meeting? Mr. McGowan, Mr. Fugate?
5 Who else?
6 THE WITNESS: Yes, your Honor.
7 THE COURT: Obviously, Mr. --
8 MR. WEINBERG: The other four. Mr. McGowan,
9 Mr. Fugate, plus the --
10 THE COURT: Plus the four. Okay.
11 BY MR. WEINBERG:
12 Q That's right, correct?
13 A That's correct, yes.
14 Q Now, can you tell us what happened there?
15 A Mr. Minton sat at one end of the table with the
16 transcripts and was reading. And at the other end of the
17 table was Ms. Brooks and Mr. McGowan. And Mike Rinder and
18 Lee Fugate and I were sort of in and out answering questions
19 about what particular hearings transcripts came from and so
20 on and so forth, and -- and chatting. There wasn't much
21 conversation with either Mr. Minton or Ms. Brooks because
22 they were busy reading the transcripts.
23 Q Okay. So was there -- were there particular --
24 the --
25 Let me try to articulate a comprehensible
90
1 question.
2 The -- the transcripts that were turned over, were
3 they -- did the transcripts have to do with specific areas
4 or were they just total transcripts? You understand what
5 I'm saying? Were there -- were there specific issues that
6 the transcripts were supposed to address or were there just
7 the full transcripts of various depos?
8 A I believe that Mr. Rinder had asked someone in the
9 church to -- that was familiar with -- with the transcripts
10 to pull sections of the transcripts that had to do with the
11 issues that Mr. Minton and -- and Ms. Brooks were concerned
12 about.
13 Mr. Minton was particularly concerned about his
14 testimony regarding money and payments to -- to Mr. Dandar;
15 the amounts of the funds; the use of the funds and so on.
16 He was also concerned about any testimony having to do with
17 whether or not he ever attended meetings or participated in
18 discussions having to do with whether or not David Miscavige
19 should be added to the complaint. He was also concerned
20 about any testimony having to do with whether or not there
21 was an agreement to have the bulk of any proceeds recovered
22 in the wrongful death case paid to an anticult organization
23 or specifically the Lisa McPherson Trust.
24 Stacy Brooks was particularly concerned about
25 areas of discovery from the LMT and -- where she had not
91
1 been forthcoming either in producing documents or videos
2 or -- or things of that nature, or had not answered fully
3 questions having to do with discovery.
4 Q And I take it that there was no real substantive
5 discussion that day about these areas?
6 A I --
7 Q On the 15th?
8 A I don't believe there was.
9 Q Okay. Was it your understanding, as of the 15th,
10 that Mr. Minton and Ms. Brooks were working on recanting --
11 were working on recanting affidavits with their lawyers?
12 A Yes.
13 Q Did you, Monique Yingling, draft any of the
14 affidavits?
15 A No, I didn't.
16 Q Did you ever see any of the drafts?
17 A The -- I understand that both Ms. Brooks and
18 Mr. Minton filed short recanting affidavits. And those, I
19 never saw drafts of, no.
20 They subsequently worked on longer affidavits.
21 And I did see a draft, I believe, of each of their
22 affidavits.
23 Q Okay. And did you make any changes on the
24 affidavits -- on the draft affidavits?
25 A I did not make any changes. I did make some
92
1 suggestions.
2 Q Okay. Can you remember what suggestions you made
3 with regard to the --
4 These were the -- in Mr. Minton's case, the long
5 affidavit, which is his second affidavit. That the one
6 you're talking about?
7 A Yes. Mm-hmm.
8 Q And in Ms. Brooks's situation, I think it's her
9 second affidavit too, which is her longer --
10 A Yes.
11 Q -- affidavit?
12 What suggestions did you make and how did you make
13 them?
14 A Well, we're getting a little bit ahead of
15 ourselves now, because there was a specific meeting later in
16 the month when I did talk with Mr. Minton about his
17 affidavit, and there was another specific meeting later in
18 the month when I talked with Ms. Brooks about her affidavit.
19 Q Okay.
20 A I don't know if you want to jump ahead.
21 THE COURT: Doesn't matter. Up to --
22 MR. WEINBERG: Why don't we go chronologically?
23 THE COURT: All right.
24 MR. WEINBERG: We'll get there.
25
93
1 BY MR. WEINBERG:
2 Q After -- after April 15th, when the transcripts
3 were turned over in this meeting, sort of meeting in
4 Mr. Pope's office, when Mr. McGowan was there, and
5 Mr. Fugate, what was the next time that you can recall a
6 meeting with either -- with Mr. Minton?
7 A On Thursday the 18th.
8 Q Okay. And what day of the week was that?
9 A Thursday.
10 Q Thursday the 18th.
11 I'm obviously tired.
12 THE COURT: Not supposed to be tired this early
13 in the day.
14 MR. WEINBERG: I'm trying to think of a
15 comeback. Couldn't think of --
16 MR. DANDAR: It's one of those lawyer quotes
17 you're going to put in the paper.
18 MR. WEINBERG: And I didn't even see the
19 St. Pete Times yet, so it could happen.
20 BY MR. WEINBERG:
21 Q Okay. On Thursday the 18th, the meeting was
22 where?
23 A The meeting was in Mr. Pope's office.
24 Q And who was there?
25 A Ms. Brooks, Mr. Minton, Mr. Rinder, and I was
94
1 there.
2 Q Okay. And do you recall what time of day?
3 A It was in the evening, I believe.
4 Q And do you recall how long this meeting lasted?
5 A It lasted a few hours.
6 Q And what was the occasion for the meeting?
7 A As with most of these meetings, Bob Minton would
8 call Mike Rinder and say he wanted to talk to him or he
9 wanted to talk to us, and we would arrange to meet him.
10 Q Okay. What happened during the meeting?
11 A There was discussion on a number of topics.
12 I do remember that when the meeting began, Mr. --
13 Mr. Minton was a little bit upset. And we asked him why he
14 was upset, and he told us that Mr. Dandar had called his
15 wife.
16 And I was a little surprised. I didn't know much
17 about Mr. Minton's personal life, but I assumed he was
18 having a relationship with Ms. Brooks, so I was surprised.
19 He said something about his wife.
20 And I said, "Your wife?" And he said, "Yes, my
21 wife. I'm still married. We're separated but I'm still
22 married." And so I said, "Well, why would Mr. Dandar call
23 your wife?" And I said, "Does he know her?" And he said,
24 "No," but he said, "He left her a message saying that he was
25 very, very concerned about me and my health and my state of
95
1 mind and so on." And so I said, "Well, why -- why do you
2 think he would call your wife?" And he said, "Because I
3 think he wants my wife to try to put pressure on me not to
4 continue to testify or something like that."
5 Q What else happened during the meeting?
6 A We spent a lot of time at that meeting talking
7 about Mr. Minton's participation in the meeting that he
8 attended, where there was discussion about adding
9 Mr. Miscavige to the complaint.
10 Q All right.
11 A And the -- Ms. -- both Mr. Minton and Ms. Brooks
12 were trying to pinpoint the time frame in which that meeting
13 had occurred.
14 When Mr. Minton had testified in front of Judge
15 Baird, he had -- had put the meeting sometime in the late
16 summer, I believe, of -- of 1999, and there seemed to be
17 some disagreement between Ms. Brooks and Mr. Minton as to
18 when this meeting occurred. And so there was discussion
19 about what they remembered about the time, the office, who
20 was there, where they sat at the table, and -- and the
21 details of the meeting. So that -- that was all discussed.
22 Q And the -- the -- conclusion was that the meeting
23 was actually at the new office on Kennedy?
24 A That's correct. And I think it was Ms. Brooks who
25 remembered that Mr. Dandar had moved into that office
96
1 sometime in October or something like that, and so that
2 therefore the meeting had to be dated later than Mr. Minton
3 had originally thought, and it was sometime in the fall
4 of -- of '99 rather than the late -- the late summer.
5 Q Okay. What else do you recall about the
6 conversation on the -- on Thursday the 18th?
7 A Mr. Minton had a copy of the checks. And so he
8 provided us with a copy of both the $500,000 check that he
9 had given to Mr. Dandar in May of 2000, I believe, and the
10 $250,000 check that he had given to Mr. Dandar in March of
11 2001.
12 Q Okay. And he gave you all a copy of the checks?
13 A Yes, he did.
14 Q And were you all surprised to see a copy of the
15 checks?
16 A By that time, I think I -- I really did believe
17 Mr. Minton; that he had given this money to Mr. Dandar, and
18 what the source of the money was. So I was -- I was happy
19 to see the checks, because it certainly proved the point.
20 But -- but I can't say that I was all that surprised.
21 The copies that he gave us at that meeting were --
22 were pretty lousy fax copies, and he said he was going to
23 try to get better copies of the checks.
24 We asked him how he got the copies of the checks,
25 and he told us that he had gotten them from his banker in
97
1 Switzerland, and it was his banker that had caused these
2 checks to be issued through UBS.
3 We asked him if UBS was his bank, and he told us
4 no.
5 Q And did he identify his bank?
6 A No, he did not.
7 Q Or his banker.
8 A No, he did not.
9 Q But you -- but besides getting these checks, do
10 you recall anything else in the conversation concerning the
11 meeting -- dating the meeting with David -- regarding having
12 David Miscavige --
13 Do you recall anything else on Thursday the 18th?
14 A Well, I -- I do recall some more details that they
15 gave us about the meeting. I mean, they -- I think
16 Mr. Minton actually might have drawn a little diagram of the
17 table where he was sitting. He remembered it was hot. He's
18 always hot and wants the air conditioner turned way up. And
19 so he was sitting at the end of the table where the air
20 conditioner was.
21 He remembered that Mr. Dandar was sitting at the
22 other end of the table, because the phone wasn't properly
23 hooked up, and so Mr. Dandar was sitting right next to the
24 phone. And that Mr. Prince was there, Mr. Garko was there,
25 and -- and Ms. -- Ms. Brooks was there.
98
1 Q Okay. The --
2 A He also told us that when he -- he left the
3 meeting, that he went down in the elevator with Mr. Dandar,
4 and Mr. Dandar told him that, "You know, this meeting never
5 happened," or something of that nature.
6 He also told us that at a later point in time,
7 before he was going to a deposition, that he was in a car
8 with Mr. Dandar -- I don't know if Mr. Dandar was driving
9 him to the deposition or -- or whatever, but they were in a
10 car together, and Mr. Dandar said to him, "Do you remember
11 the meeting that never happened?" And Mr. Minton said,
12 "No," and Mr. Dandar then laughed and said, "That's a good
13 answer."
14 Q Now, was there -- was there any discussion at this
15 meeting or, frankly, any of the other meetings, about the
16 LMT and the involvement of Mr. Minton and the LMT, or did
17 that come later?
18 A There was -- there was discussion about the LMT
19 throughout these meetings. Most of that discussion was with
20 Stacy Brooks, and a lot of it had to do with -- with the
21 church's belief that there had been a lot of discovery abuse
22 with the -- with the LMT, and that the LMT was used to pay
23 the witnesses that were being used in the wrongful death
24 case and so on.
25 Q Is there anything else that stands out on the
99
1 18th, or -- or do you want to go to the next meeting?
2 A No.
3 There was also extensive discussion that day about
4 the movie The Profit. And -- and at some point in time,
5 Mr. -- Mr. Minton actually provided us with a copy of the
6 agreement having to do with that movie, The Profit. And I
7 don't remember specifically if it was at this meeting, but
8 it may well have been.
9 And we asked Mr. -- Mr. Minton what had happened;
10 how did he have a falling out --
11 By this time we knew that, obviously, there'd been
12 a falling out between him --
13 THE COURT: Let me have that. Whose are these?
14 Are these the clerk's? These records here.
15 THE WITNESS: It's marked Exhibit 97, your
16 Honor.
17 THE COURT: Let me have those.
18 THE CLERK: That was the witness's.
19 MR. WEINBERG: I don't think so. I think this
20 is --
21 THE COURT: The extra copy?
22 MR. WEINBERG: So you already have those?
23 THE CLERK: I have mine.
24 THE COURT: I keep looking at the witnesses
25 through this sea of blue tabs.
100
1 THE WITNESS: I might look better. I don't
2 know.
3 THE COURT: Might or might not. I might look
4 better or worse. You never know, right?
5 BY MR. WEINBERG:
6 Q Do you know what you were describing?
7 A Yes. The falling out --
8 Q All right.
9 A -- with Patricia Greenway and Peter Alexander.
10 And the -- and Mr. Minton and Ms. Brooks told us
11 the story. And actually, the story had to do with Germany
12 and a woman named Ursula Caberta in Germany.
13 Mr. Minton had provided some funds to Ms. Caberta.
14 Ms. Caberta is a government official in Hamburg, Germany,
15 whose mission in life is to try to destroy the Church of
16 Scientology, and she is part of the anti-Scientology
17 community, I suppose, and -- and Mr. Minton made her
18 acquaintance as a result of that.
19 And at some point in time, Mr. Minton loaned -- he
20 was telling us this story. He loaned her $75,000 or
21 something like that. Since that time, that loan has become
22 the subject of a criminal investigation in Germany, because
23 government officials in Germany are never allowed to receive
24 money from private individuals having to do with anything
25 that they work in. So it's viewed as some sort of
101
1 corruption or a bribe or something in Germany.
2 And Mr. Minton and Ms. Brooks were explaining to
3 us that they were in Germany meeting with Ursula Caberta.
4 And I think it might have had to do -- something to do with
5 the case, because Mr. Minton was also incriminated in the
6 case, and he had to meet with the prosecutor or something of
7 that nature. And while they were there, Mr. Alexander and
8 Ms. Greenway were there at the same time. And they
9 apparently wanted to meet with Ms. Caberta about having
10 assistance from her to try to distribute the money -- the
11 movie, The Profit, in Germany, and were asking Ms. Caberta
12 to arrange for them to meet distributors or something of
13 that nature.
14 And Mr. Minton and Ms. Brooks told Ms. Caberta
15 that they should have -- that she should have nothing to do
16 with this movie, The Profit; that she was already in enough
17 trouble because of the loan, and there was this criminal
18 investigation going on that he had been implicated in and so
19 on. And Mr. Minton told Ms. Caberta not to have anything to
20 do with Ms. Greenway. Apparently Ms. Caberta then told that
21 to Ms. Greenway, and Ms. Greenway was furious.
22 And I remember Ms. Brooks describing Ms. --
23 Ms. Greenway coming into a bar where they were in -- in
24 Germany in a hotel, I believe, and accosting her and
25 screaming at her and calling her every vile name in the book
102
1 and -- for interfering with their plans to distribute the
2 movie in Germany and so on, and that that was the basis for
3 the -- the falling out between -- between those -- between
4 Greenway/Alexander and Brooks/Minton.
5 And so we got all those details that night.
6 Q And did he -- was that the night that he told you
7 about his funding of the movie and participation in the
8 movie as well, or not?
9 A We had discussed that at some point earlier on.
10 And he had told us that he had provided all of the money for
11 the movie -- I believe it was $2.4 million -- and that
12 Mr. Alexander had provided a hundred dollars, and that he
13 had owned 50 percent of the movie.
14 Q Okay. Is that pretty much it for the 18th?
15 A I believe so.
16 Q What's the next date?
17 A The next date was Tuesday, April the 23rd.
18 Q All right. And where was that?
19 A That meeting was in Mr. Pope's office.
20 Q And who -- was it the same four people?
21 A Yes, it was.
22 Q Do you remember what time of the day the meeting
23 on Tuesday the 23rd was?
24 A I'd say early afternoon.
25 Q And do you remember how long the meeting lasted
103
1 approximately?
2 A A couple of hours.
3 Q And do you remember the occasion of the meeting?
4 Was there any particular occasion for the meeting?
5 A Mr. Minton had told us, and Ms. Brooks also had
6 told us, I believe, at the prior meeting on the 18th, that
7 while they had done these recanting affidavits, that they
8 had done them in the way that their lawyers -- that being
9 Mr. Howie and Mr. McGowan -- had told them to, which was
10 that they had to get something filed very, very quickly, and
11 so they just needed to be short and address certain issues
12 that they believed had to be recanted. And they didn't feel
13 comfortable with only those items. And they both said that
14 they wanted to provide affidavits that told their story,
15 which I took to understand to be their story of involvement
16 in the wrongful death litigation as well as other
17 anti-Scientology litigation.
18 And at this meeting on the 23rd, Mr. Minton had a
19 draft affidavit that he asked Mr. Rinder and me to take a
20 look at.
21 Q Okay. And did -- and is this the appropriate time
22 now to discuss what suggestions if any were made to
23 Mr. Minton regarding his draft?
24 A Yes.
25 Q Can you tell us that?
104
1 A I recall that the draft was considerably longer
2 than the final affidavit ended up. And it was my suggestion
3 that he should make it shorter; that he had a lot of
4 background information about how he became involved in the
5 anti-Scientology community; his funding of the copyright
6 litigation; his -- his free speech views and his views about
7 the Church of Scientology trying to quash free speech on the
8 Internet and so on. And I told him it was my view that I
9 didn't think that was necessary to have in his affidavit.
10 I did tell him, when I spoke to him about his
11 affidavit -- and throughout these meetings there were times
12 when Mr. Minton would ask me for advice or for my opinion on
13 something, and I always told Mr. Minton that while I was
14 happy to give him my opinion, that I was not his lawyer; I
15 was Mr. Rinder's lawyer. And he needed to get the advice
16 and take the advice of his own lawyers.
17 And I told him that with respect to this affidavit
18 as well: That I was willing to make suggestions to him, but
19 that he needed to get the advice of his own lawyer. And
20 I -- I understood that he did do that; that in fact the
21 affidavit was finalized with his -- with his lawyer.
22 So I did make general suggestions about cutting
23 back, taking out what I thought was information that wasn't
24 necessary.
25 Also he had a tendency to speak about his --
105
1 belief or opinions in the affidavit, and I told him that
2 affidavits were more properly just statements of facts, and
3 particularly facts from personal knowledge, and so that he
4 should try to put it more in -- in that format.
5 I also made one suggestion, that Mr. Minton
6 declined to take, which was that --
7 By this time, we had discussed -- and I don't
8 remember exactly which meeting, but we had discussed the
9 moneys that Mr. Minton had -- had provided to the Lisa
10 McPherson Trust. I believe there were two large transfers
11 into the Lisa McPherson Trust that purported to be anonymous
12 or from some other source. And Mr. Minton had told us in
13 response to a specific question, I believe, that he was the
14 source of those funds. And I told him that I thought that
15 that was something that he needed to clear up in his
16 affidavit, because I was aware that it had not been
17 addressed in the shorter affidavit that had been filed.
18 But I understand, from having read the final
19 affidavit, that that suggestion was not taken.
20 Q Is there anything else that you can recall that
21 you suggested?
22 A Not specifically, no.
23 Q Okay. And was there any further -- any other
24 discussion at that meeting at Mr. Pope's office on the --
25 Tuesday the 23rd about any other areas that come to mind?
106
1 A There may have been some discussion about the
2 Wollersheim case that day as well.
3 Q You did not see any -- any draft at that time from
4 Stacy Brooks, is that right?
5 A No. I do not believe so.
6 Q Okay. Can you recall when your next meeting with
7 Mr. Minton and Ms. Brooks were -- was?
8 THE COURT: Had Mr. Minton told you at that
9 time about another matter that he neglected to
10 recant, about his -- his -- moneys that he loaned --
11 To whom? Was it Mr. Alexander? Does anybody
12 remember?
13 THE WITNESS: Mr. Armstrong?
14 THE COURT: Mr. Armstrong.
15 And that he repaid -- he gave him the money to
16 repay himself, and he gave Mr. Armstrong a hundred
17 thousand dollars to donate to the LMT? Did he tell
18 you about those hundred thousand?
19 THE WITNESS: I think he may have, your Honor,
20 because I think -- I think we may have asked a
21 specific question about that. I think the church
22 had some idea of this money that had come into the
23 LMT from Mr. Armstrong, so I think that we may have
24 asked a specific question about that.
25 And Mr. Minton's position with respect to why
107
1 he did that was because he wanted it to appear that
2 there were people other than himself funding the
3 Lisa McPherson Trust, because the Church of
4 Scientology, of course, was alleging that the trust
5 was part of Bob Minton, and therefore inextricably
6 intertwined with the wrongful death case and so on.
7 THE COURT: Did he tell you why he had gone to
8 the elaborate scheme of the -- the -- what was it --
9 Operation Clambake --
10 MR. WEINBERG: Yeah. I think she was --
11 THE COURT: -- moneys?
12 MR. WEINBERG: She was sort of describing that
13 before. But you want to go into detail --
14 THE COURT: I was talking this time about the
15 two 100,000 that he --
16 Mr. Minton only tells us things when we uncover
17 them. Of course he'll have to deal with those
18 problems. Those are different problems of his own
19 that he's going to have to deal with. It's nice
20 that he told you all, but he certainly didn't recant
21 them properly, and he certainly didn't recant them
22 here until he'd get caught in them. Which I have my
23 own reason for thinking why that was.
24 But in any event, did he tell you about his
25 elaborate scheme on the $300,000 to Operation
108
1 Clambake?
2 THE WITNESS: He did, your Honor. And --
3 THE COURT: And what did he tell you about
4 that?
5 THE WITNESS: He told us that that was a scheme
6 that had been devised or concocted by John Merrett.
7 THE COURT: Likes to put all the blame on the
8 lawyers. All the time. Seems like.
9 In any event that's what he told you.
10 MR. WEINBERG: Anyway, that's what she was
11 talking about when she said she gave him -- part of
12 her advice was to include that in the affidavit.
13 THE COURT: Right.
14 MR. WEINBERG: That's what she was talking
15 about. She just hadn't gone into the details.
16 Would you like her to explain the details of
17 what --
18 THE COURT: No. I just was curious as to what
19 his -- his rationale was about that 300,000, why --
20 as I recall Mr. Merrett testifying, that was a
21 fairly elaborate scheme to get that 300,000 in.
22 BY MR. WEINBERG:
23 Q What -- could you --
24 MR. WEINBERG: Could I ask Ms. Yingling --
25
109
1 BY MR. WEINBERG:
2 Q What's your recollection of what Mr. Minton told
3 you all about this scheme?
4 A That -- that they -- they wanted to come up with a
5 way to make it appear that funds were coming into the Lisa
6 McPherson Trust from somebody other than Mr. Minton, and so
7 Mr. -- Mr. Merrett came up with the idea of trying to have
8 somebody in Europe donate these funds to the trust. And I
9 believe they used someone in Denmark. I'm not sure. But
10 Mr. -- Mr. Merrett came up with a way that the funds would
11 get to this fellow in Denmark, who would then make a
12 donation to the Lisa McPherson Trust so then it would appear
13 that somebody other than Mr. Minton was making contributions
14 to the trust.
15 And he also told us, as part of this, it was
16 Mr. Merrett who actually dreamed up the fat man, and that
17 the fat man was used in this context of that being the
18 fellow who -- who anonymously was going to be donating this
19 money. Somebody named the fat man.
20 THE COURT: The anonymous European donors, I
21 suppose, too, he indicated to you was his way of
22 making it appear that donors from Europe were
23 donating money to LMT?
24 THE WITNESS: That someone else other than he
25 was donating money to LMT.
110
1 Particularly -- I think there was a name
2 attached to one of the amounts, the $300,000
3 amounts. The name was this fellow in Denmark who is
4 an anti-Scientology person over there. Somebody --
5 THE COURT: Did he tell you --
6 Excuse me. I'm sorry. I shouldn't have
7 interrupted you. Go ahead. Finish.
8 THE WITNESS: I can't remember the fellow's
9 name. It may be Lund or something like that.
10 THE COURT: Did he tell you that he hadn't even
11 revealed that to his friend Stacy Brooks?
12 THE WITNESS: He did tell us that. He did tell
13 us that.
14 And he told us actually that he and John
15 Merrett had -- had decided not to reveal it to her
16 because they knew that she would be asked about the
17 source of the funds in the ongoing discovery into
18 the Lisa McPherson Trust, and so in order to protect
19 her and not put her in a position where she would
20 have to lie or tell a story that -- that they didn't
21 want to become public, they -- they did not tell her
22 that.
23 THE COURT: Did he tell you how annoyed he was
24 when she ever, ever revealed that any money had come
25 into the LMT from Europe?
111
1 Perhaps he didn't get into that with you.
2 THE WITNESS: I'm not sure that he --
3 THE COURT: Okay.
4 THE WITNESS: -- that he told us that, no.
5 THE COURT: Okay. You, of course, sitting
6 there, knowing about the problems one has when one's
7 transporting money into this country -- now he's
8 talking about a $500,000 check to Mr. Dandar;
9 $250,000 check to Mr. Dandar; we at least know of a
10 $300,000 check to LMT; a $500,000 check to LMT he
11 didn't reveal. He says he revealed it to his
12 lawyer, of course. His lawyer says that's not true.
13 He says he revealed those to Mr. Dandar. Mr. Dandar
14 says that's not true. We know he didn't reveal it
15 to Stacy Brooks --
16 As a good tax lawyer, I'm sure you could have
17 thought, as this court thinks, that he could have
18 more than one motive for his story.
19 THE WITNESS: That's -- that's right, your
20 Honor.
21 Although I'll have to say that I disagreed with
22 the motives that the church was attributing to him
23 for -- for having this money come in the way it did
24 to the Lisa McPherson Trust. I mean, the church
25 always thought that it had something to do with
112
1 money laundering and that he was bringing in the
2 money from a source that he did not want to identify
3 in Europe and then laundering it through -- through
4 the Lisa McPherson Trust.
5 But the Lisa McPherson Trust then wrote checks
6 out to him, which I would assume he deposited into
7 his bank account here in the U.S., thereby making a
8 trail of those funds in the U.S.
9 And so to me, who, as a tax lawyer, knows a
10 little bit about these things, I thought that would
11 be an incredibly naive way to try to launder money;
12 to have it paid out to you the same day it comes in
13 in a check that you then -- or in a wire transfer to
14 your own personal bank account in the U.S., where
15 you then have a trace for it.
16 So I -- you know, I -- I disagreed with the
17 church's view that that was money laundering.
18 Mr. Minton is not that naive that he would see that
19 as a money-laundering scheme that --
20 THE COURT: That would be pretty stupid.
21 THE WITNESS: Exactly. That's what I thought.
22 And so I -- for that reason, I give some
23 credibility to, you know, this elaborate scheme,
24 this elaborate plan, that -- that seemed to be going
25 on in more than one venue here, to try to hide
113
1 things from the Church of Scientology.
2 The Church of Scientology is very, very
3 effective about trying to discover things that they
4 think should be discovered in litigation. And so to
5 me, this was an elaborate scheme to try to hide
6 these things from the church; not for him to somehow
7 hide his money. Because it then ended up in his
8 bank account in the U.S.
9 THE COURT: Well, while the Church of
10 Scientology may be pretty adept at discovery, having
11 worked in taxes yourself -- and I, having worked for
12 the IRS, know that sometimes the agents for the
13 government are not as adept in things. Sometimes
14 they've got a lot of time and sometimes they don't.
15 And sometimes they're -- if you're trying to hide
16 things from the tax -- from paying taxes on it,
17 sometimes just one little step, they can miss it.
18 THE WITNESS: That's correct, your Honor. I've
19 certainly had that experience.
20 THE COURT: Yes.
21 THE WITNESS: Fortunately for my clients at
22 times.
23 THE COURT: Yes. I -- I certainly do too.
24 So as I said, I -- I know that, as you sat
25 there and listened, that you could have thought, as
114
1 I do -- whether you believed it or not, certainly it
2 must have gone through your mind that he may have
3 had more than one motivation for his transfers being
4 in the fashion that they were.
5 THE WITNESS: Absolutely, your Honor.
6 THE COURT: Okay.
7 MR. WEINBERG: I've got -- we've been going an
8 hour and a half. Do you think we could take --
9 It's up to you.
10 THE COURT: Well, I think we can. It seems
11 like that's the time I'm supposed to take a break
12 for my loyal court reporter.
13 We'll be in recess for 15 or 20 minutes,
14 depending on how many calls I get.
15 (A recess was taken at 9:59 a.m.)
16 (The proceedings resumed at 10:21)
17 THE COURT: You may continue.
18 MR. WEINBERG: I will.
19 BY MR. WEINBERG:
20 Q I think where we left off, we were on April 26th.
21 A That's correct. I think.
22 Q But I don't think we had said anything about
23 April 26th.
24 Let me just reorient myself. April 26th is when?
25 What day of the week?
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1 A It was a Friday.
2 Q All right. And what was the occasion --
3 And that was at Mr. Pope's office as well?
4 A Yes, it was.
5 Q And it's the four people again?
6 A Yes, it was.
7 Q And what was the occasion of that meeting, do you
8 know?
9 A Stacy Brooks had a draft of -- of her affidavit,
10 and she asked Mr. Rinder and me to review it.
11 Q And that took place during this meeting?
12 A Yes, it did.
13 Q And did you make any suggestions to Ms. Brooks?
14 A Yes, I had. I -- I recall that as with
15 Mr. Minton's affidavit, Ms. Brooks's initial draft was much
16 longer than the -- the final affidavit that was -- was filed
17 in this proceeding. And I suggested, as I had with
18 Mr. Minton, that it be shorter. And Ms. Brooks had included
19 a lot of background information involving her time when she
20 was in the Church of Scientology and when she left the
21 Church of Scientology and how she got involved in
22 anti-Scientology litigation, and a lot of details about
23 that. And I suggested that that wasn't necessary.
24 She also, as with Mr. Minton, had a tendency to
25 speak in opinions and beliefs as opposed to facts that she
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1 knew from personal knowledge, so I -- I suggested that she
2 try to confine her affidavit to statements of facts from
3 personal knowledge.
4 But as I had with Mr. Minton, I told her that
5 while I was glad to give my opinion, that she needed to have
6 the opinion of her own counsel and the advice of her own
7 counsel in finalizing her affidavit. And I do understand
8 that she did that.
9 Q Did -- did you --
10 MR. WEINBERG: Were you about to -- or were you
11 just looking at me?
12 THE COURT: Just looking at you.
13 MR. WEINBERG: I thought you were poised to --
14 THE COURT: No.
15 MR. WEINBERG: I'm getting punchy.
16 BY MR. WEINBERG:
17 Q Did you or Mr. Rinder ever tell Mr. Minton or
18 Ms. Brooks to tell a certain story in their affidavit?
19 A No, we did not. They -- they told us that they
20 wanted to tell their story and they wanted to provide an
21 affidavit that told the story as opposed to -- to just the
22 short recanting affidavits they had initially filed.
23 And I would say that probably the initial drafts
24 they -- they asked us to look at were much more of a story,
25 and that in fact they told the story. They started at the
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1 beginning and went through the events and went to the end.
2 It wasn't even so much an affidavit as it was a story. And
3 then they condensed that down to what ultimately was filed.
4 Q Okay. The -- during these meetings that took
5 place from -- let me just look at my notes here -- from
6 the -- the ones in April, from the first meeting in April --
7 which was on what day?
8 A It was on the 6th of April.
9 Q From the first meeting, on the 6th of April,
10 through April the 26th -- during any of these meetings, were
11 there any negotiations with regard to a settlement?
12 A No, there were not.
13 Q Were there any discussions about settlement
14 during -- during these meetings?
15 A No, there were not.
16 Q Did you have any more meetings with Mr. Minton
17 and/or Ms. Brooks?
18 A I did have one further meeting with Ms. Brooks and
19 Mr. McGowan.
20 Q And when was that meeting?
21 A That was sometime in May. In the latter part of
22 May, I believe.
23 Q Okay. And where did that take place?
24 A Hmm. I believe it took place in Mr. Pope's
25 office.
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1 Q Okay. And do you recall what happened during that
2 meeting?
3 A Yes. Ms. Brooks wanted to review all of the prior
4 affidavits that she had filed in Scientology, other
5 Scientology litigation as well as this case, and to -- to
6 see if she had made false statements in any of those
7 affidavits. And she wanted to discuss that with Mr. Rinder
8 and -- and me. So we had a meeting where Mr. Rinder and I
9 were there, and Ms. Brooks was with Mr. McGowan.
10 Q Okay. And how long did that meeting --
11 This was after her testimony.
12 A I believe it was, yes.
13 Q And -- and how long did that meeting take?
14 A It probably took a few hours. She wanted -- she
15 had asked Mr. Rinder, I believe, or Mr. McGowan had, to
16 provide copies of all the affidavits that the church was
17 aware of that she had filed, because she did not have access
18 to them all. And -- and so we did have those affidavits.
19 And there was some discussion about different
20 things in the affidavits.
21 I recall that -- that Ms. Brooks had a lot of
22 questions about -- that -- about things they had said --
23 questions pri