1
IN THE CIRCUIT COURT FOR PINELLAS COUNTY, FLORIDA
CHURCH OF SCIENTOLOGY FLAG
SERVICE ORGANIZATION, INC.,
Plaintiff
vs. CASE NO. 00-002750-CI-20
DELL LIEBREICH, individually and
as Personal Representative of
the Estate of Lisa McPherson,
ROBERT MINTON and THE LISA MCPHERSON
TRUST,
Defendants.
/
BEFORE: The Honorable W. Douglas Baird
Circuit Judge
PLACE: 315 Court Street
Clearwater, Florida
DATE: April 30, 2002
TIME: 11:30 a.m. - 5:40 p.m.
REPORTED BY: Susan M. Valsecchi, RPR
Registered Professional Court Reporter
Sixth Judicial Circuit
-----------------------------------------
HEARING
(VOLUME 1 OF APRIL 30, 2002 HEARING)
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Pages 1 - 116
ROBERT A. DEMPSTER & ASSOCIATES
(727) 443-0992
2
1 APPEARANCES
2
3 F. WALLACE POPE, JR., ESQUIRE
SAMUEL D. ROSEN, ESQUIRE
4 JOHNSON, BLAKELY, POPE, BOKOR, RUPPEL & BURNS
Post Office Box 1368
5 Clearwater, Florida 33757
(727) 461-1818
6
Attorneys for Plaintiff
7
8
LUKE LIROT, ESQUIRE
9 LUKE CHARLES LIROT, P.A.
112 East Street, Suite B
10 Tampa, Florida 33602
11 Attorney for the Defendants
12
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25
3
1 P R O C E E D I N G S
2
3 THE COURT: All right. This is the
4 continuation of the hearing that was a week ago
5 Friday. And has the plaintiff completed its
6 case?
7 MR. ROSEN: No, Your Honor.
8 THE COURT: You still have some witnesses,
9 right?
10 MR. ROSEN: Yes, Your Honor.
11 Your Honor, may I also start by noting
12 that because we finished at a very late hour, I
13 neglected to, after my examination of
14 Mr. Dandar, to move -- formally move -- into
15 evidence the documents that were identified by
16 Mr. Dandar and by Mr. Minton earlier last time
17 through their examination.
18 And I would therefore hereby move to
19 receipt into evidence of Exhibits 5, 6, 8, 9,
20 11, 12, 13, 18, 19, 20, 21, 24, 26, 33, 41, 42,
21 43, 48, 49, 50, 51, 52, those portions of
22 Exhibit 17 which is a deposition transcript
23 that were read out in this courtroom in the
24 hearing and those portions of Exhibit 27,
25 deposition transcript, that were read out in
4
1 this courtroom.
2 I move the admission of those documents.
3 MR. LIROT: Judge, with the exception of
4 Exhibit 42 which was the affidavit of
5 Mr. Minton, we have no objection.
6 MR. ROSEN: I don't offer the exhibit for
7 the truth of the matter set forth in the
8 affidavit.
9 THE COURT: Then why are they relevant?
10 MR. ROSEN: This is affidavit that
11 Mr. Minton testified Mr. Dandar had him sign
12 which was untrue that denied that there was an
13 agreement to donate the funds, the bulk of the
14 proceeds in the wrongful death case.
15 Exhibit 42 was the affidavit in which
16 Mr. Minton testified to Mr. Dandar asked him to
17 sign that was false. So I don't offer it for
18 the truth of the statement in the affidavit.
19 THE COURT: Just for the fact that it was
20 executed.
21 MR. ROSEN: That's correct.
22 THE COURT: What's the basis for your
23 objection?
24 MR. LIROT: Well, Judge, first of all, the
25 affidavit is not one that emanated from this
5
1 case.
2 Second of all, I think it was attempted to
3 be authenticated through Mr. Minton, but we
4 clearly showed that it was not what it was
5 purported to be.
6 It was not in any way produced by
7 Mr. Dandar's office, and I think that that's
8 unequivocal.
9 So I think rather than being asserted for
10 the truth of the matters within the affidavit,
11 it's being asserted from the back door for an
12 attestation of what's in the affidavit not
13 being true, and I think the same rule of
14 evidence would apply. We just don't think that
15 it's something that should go in based on those
16 objections.
17 THE COURT: I will accept it into evidence
18 and give it the weight that I think it deserves
19 based on the testimony and circumstances.
20 MR. ROSEN: Your Honor, our next witness
21 is Dell Liebreich.
22 THE COURT: Before we get too far into
23 this, would counsel approach briefly, please.
24 (Thereupon, a bench conference was held
25 off the record.)
6
1 MR. ROSEN: Your Honor, I would like to
2 call Dell Liebreich.
3 THE BAILIFF: Right this way, ma'am.
4 Stand right here and face the judge. Raise
5 your right hand and be sworn in, please.
6 (Thereupon, the oath was administered to the
7 witness.)
8 MR. ROSEN: May I approach her?
9 Your Honor, I've handed -- let the record
10 reflect I've handed you and the witness a
11 series of folders with exhibits.
12 Some of them are additional copies of
13 exhibits that were previously submitted last
14 time; and just so that Your Honor doesn't have
15 to plow through the old file, you've got
16 additional copies. That's the reason for the
17 redundancy.
18
19 THEREUPON,
20 DELL LIEBREICH, called as a witness, having
21 been duly sworn, testified as follows:
22 DIRECT EXAMINATION
23 BY MR. ROSEN:
24 Q. Ms. Liebreich, can you leave those closed in front
25 of you until I ask you to open them?
7
1 A. Oh, sure.
2 Q. Thank you, ma'am.
3 Ms. Liebreich, you are the personal
4 representative of the Estate of Lisa McPherson, right?
5 A. Right.
6 Q. You know that -- you were in court for the hearing
7 on the 19th of April; were you not?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Okay. For that entire hearing?
10 A. Well, except for maybe a few minutes to go out.
11 Q. I can't hear you, ma'am.
12 A. Except for maybe a few minutes to the restroom.
13 Q. Okay. You are aware, ma'am, that one of the
14 issues in this case is whether the money that was provided
15 by Mr. Minton, including the money from the Swiss banks,
16 whether that was provided to the Estate for the Estate's
17 benefit or whether it was a personal loan to Mr. Dandar.
18 You're aware that that's an issue in this case?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. And do you have any knowledge on that subject?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. And would you tell us what your knowledge is,
23 ma'am.
24 A. It's a personal loan to Mr. Dandar.
25 Q. And that knowledge is derived from a conversation
8
1 that you had with Mr. Dandar?
2 A. Right.
3 Q. How long ago was that?
4 A. Well, from the beginning.
5 Q. When was the beginning? What year?
6 A. '97. '97, I believe it was.
7 Q. Say again?
8 A. I believe it was 1997.
9 Q. Okay. So let me see If I understand this. From
10 the very beginning, Mr. Dandar told you that this 2 million
11 dollars -- that the money, as the money came in
12 from Mr. Minton, was not for the Estate but was a personal
13 loan to Mr. Dandar, right? He told you that.
14 A. It was a personal loan to be used to pay bills for
15 the Estate, is what I understood.
16 Q. To pay what bills?
17 A. For the Estate or whatever.
18 MR. LIROT: Judge, I would object to any
19 attorney/client communication subject to this
20 question.
21 MR. ROSEN: She's already testified to
22 this fifteen times.
23 THE COURT: So you're claiming a waiver?
24 MR. ROSEN: Yeah.
25 MR. LIROT: Judge, she hasn't testified to
9
1 this. She hasn't waived the privilege.
2 BY MR. ROSEN:
3 Q. Ms. Liebreich, have you testified to the purpose
4 that these loans were loans to Mr. Dandar, personal loans?
5 Have you testified to that in this case?
6 A. I don't remember whether I have or not.
7 Q. Do you remember testifying April 20th of 2002 in a
8 deposition that these loans were loans -- that the monies
9 from Mr. Minton were personal loans to Mr. Dandar?
10 MR. LIROT: Objection, Judge. I think she
11 needs to be shown the deposition.
12 MR. ROSEN: Do you remember testifying to
13 that?
14 THE WITNESS: I don't recall. If you show
15 it to me --
16 BY MR. ROSEN:
17 Q. It's ten days ago, ma'am. Are you saying you
18 don't remember your testimony to this effect ten days ago?
19 A. What was your question again?
20 Q. Do you remember testifying at deposition ten days
21 ago -- Saturday, April 20th -- that the monies from
22 Mr. Minton were a loan to Mr. Dandar, a personal loan to
23 Mr. Dandar? Do you remember that?
24 A. I probably did.
25 Q. Was it probably true or probably not true?
10
1 A. It's probably true.
2 Q. Uh-huh. So let's see If I understand this.
3 From the very beginning in October of
4 '97 -- sometime in '97 -- Mr. Dandar has told you from time
5 to time when he receives money, right?
6 MR. LIROT: Objection, Judge. That's
7 privileged.
8 THE COURT: Sustained.
9 MR. LIROT: It mischaracterizes the
10 evidence as well.
11 BY MR. ROSEN:
12 Q. Now, is it your understanding -- your
13 understanding that this was a personal -- that these were
14 personal loans to Mr. Dandar, is that understanding based
15 on anything other than what Mr. Dandar told you?
16 A. Was it based on anything else?
17 Q. Yeah.
18 A. Well, that's the way I understood it.
19 Q. Well, let me rephrase the question, perhaps. Did
20 anybody else ever tell you that these loans -- these monies
21 from Mr. Minton were loans to Mr. Dandar personally?
22 A. I don't recall.
23 Q. Do you recall having conversations with Mr. Minton
24 on the subject?
25 A. I don't recall having any conversations with
11
1 Mr. Minton about the loan.
2 Q. Do you recall thanking Mr. Minton for his donation
3 to, quote, the Estate?
4 A. I thanked him many times for the money that he put
5 up.
6 Q. Do you recall thanking him for the Estate for the
7 money that he has donated to the Estate? Do you recall
8 that, ma'am?
9 A. I might have said that. I don't recall.
10 Q. Well, might it have been true when you said it?
11 A. Well, I thanked him for his donations. As far as
12 I'm concerned, it was a loan to Dan, but...
13 Q. Okay. You understand that a second issue in this
14 case is whether or not Mr. Dandar is free to use this money
15 for his own -- any purpose he wants, including buying
16 himself a car, or whether he has to use this money from
17 Mr. Minton only for the expenses of the Estate in the
18 wrongful death case? You understand that's an issue in
19 this case?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Do you have any knowledge on this subject?
22 A. He can use it any way he wants to, is what my
23 understanding is.
24 Q. Okay. And is your understanding based on anything
25 other than your conversations with Mr. Dandar?
12
1 A. I believe I've heard Mr. Minton state that he
2 could spend it for whatever he wanted to.
3 Q. When did you hear Mr. Minton say that?
4 A. I don't recall.
5 Q. Well, can you recall what year it was?
6 A. No.
7 Q. Well, ma'am, help us out. Sometime between 1997
8 and April 30th, 2002? Do you think you could help us out
9 and try to remember?
10 A. He probably said it more than once. I don't
11 recall.
12 Q. Can you remember any occasion on which you heard
13 him say that?
14 A. No, no, sir.
15 Q. Okay. Well, Ms. Liebreich, let's see If I've got
16 an understanding of your testimony.
17 As far as you know, based on your conversations
18 with Mr. Dandar, Mr. Dandar could use that two million
19 dollars any way he wanted to use it. He could buy a car
20 with it. He could buy a house with it, buy his wife an
21 anniversary present, right? Any way he wanted to, right?
22 MR. LIROT: Objection. These are statements
23 from Mr. Dandar to the client.
24 MR. ROSEN: No. I'm asking about her
25 understanding.
13
1 MR. LIROT: Same thing, Judge. It's
2 privileged.
3 MR. ROSEN: I don't believe so.
4 THE COURT: I think she's waived that.
5 MR. ROSEN: Yeah.
6 BY MR. ROSEN:
7 Q. Is that your understanding?
8 A. He could spend it any way he wanted to.
9 Q. And he wasn't required to spend one nickel on
10 behalf of the Estate, right? Look at me, ma'am, not
11 Mr. Dandar.
12 A. Do I have to look at you?
13 Q. Well, I'll tell you what. Why don't you look over
14 that way instead of looking at Mr. Dandar.
15 Did you hear my question, Ms. Liebreich?
16 A. What is your question?
17 Q. He wasn't required to spend any part of it for the
18 Estate, was he? Is that your understanding?
19 A. Not to my knowledge, no.
20 Q. Okay. Now, what is your understanding, ma'am, on
21 the subject of who was to repay this loan? And let me be
22 more specific.
23 Assuming that there was a recovery in the
24 wrongful death case, either by verdict or settlement, was
25 Mr. Minton's monies supposed to be repaid to him?
14
1 MR. LIROT: Objection. Lack of foundation,
2 speculation.
3 BY MR. ROSEN:
4 Q. Do you have any knowledge on that subject?
5 THE COURT: Sustained.
6 BY MR. ROSEN:
7 Q. Do you have any knowledge on that subject of
8 whether there was an agreement or understanding to repay
9 Mr. Minton the money he advanced out of any settlement or
10 judgment?
11 A. Mr. Minton said that if there was money left over,
12 if we had more than we wanted, that he felt like he should
13 be repaid.
14 Q. And who was supposed to repay him?
15 A. Well, Ken would repay him.
16 Q. You're sure the Estate wasn't going to repay him
17 the money?
18 A. I don't know that much about the law. I don't
19 know.
20 Q. Ms. Liebreich, have you testified under oath that
21 it was the Estate's obligation to repay the loan from
22 Mr. Minton?
23 MR. LIROT: Objection, Judge.
24 MR. ROSEN: Have you or have you not?
25 THE COURT: Just a moment. State your
15
1 objection.
2 MR. LIROT: The objection is if he's
3 asking about testimony under oath, he has to
4 identify the date, time and place of such
5 testimony.
6 MR. ROSEN: I don't believe I have to do
7 that until I impeach her, Your Honor.
8 THE COURT: Well, that's the beginning of
9 the process.
10 MR. ROSEN: Okay. I will come back to it.
11 BY MR. ROSEN:
12 Q. You heard testimony last time you were in court
13 about these two Swiss bank checks, one for $500,000 in May
14 of 2000 and another one for $250,000 in March of this year?
15 You heard that testimony?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Did Mr. Dandar ever give you an accounting of the
18 monies that he had received from Mr. Minton and from these
19 two bank checks?
20 A. It wasn't necessary.
21 Q. Is the answer, no, he never gave you an
22 accounting? Is that the answer, Ms. Liebreich?
23 A. That's what I'm saying.
24 Q. Is it correct, Ms. Liebreich, that Mr. Dandar
25 never told you how much money he had received?
16
1 A. He has told me how much money he received.
2 Q. When did he tell you that?
3 A. Every time he received money, he told me.
4 Q. So that when he received the two Swiss bank
5 checks, he told you at the time he received them?
6 A. Yes, he did.
7 Q. Okay. Ms. Liebreich, do you recall being deposed
8 one day after the last hearing before Judge Baird,
9 Saturday, the 20th of April of this year; do you recall
10 being deposed?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. I've put in front of you Exhibit 61 which is the
13 transcript of your deposition of that date. I'll read from
14 Page 311.
15 MR. LIROT: Judge, objection. She's not yet
16 had a chance to review it. We did not waive
17 the signing of this deposition. She's been out
18 of town. She hasn't had a chance to review
19 this deposition, nor has she signed it at this
20 point in time. There's been no errata sheet,
21 so it's premature...
22 THE COURT: Well, I think he can show it
23 to her and she can determine whether or not
24 those were the questions and those were, you
25 know, her answers.
17
1 And if she has some objection or some
2 dispute as to whether or not the court reporter
3 accurately, you know, transcribed her
4 responses, then we can deal with that.
5 BY MR. ROSEN:
6 Q. I direct your attention to Page 311 starting with
7 the question on Line 7:
8 Question, "When did you last receive an
9 accounting of the funds that had come in for the use of the
10 Estate?"
11 Answer appears on Line 19, "It's been in the
12 last few days, last week or so."
13 "Well, you don't mean sitting in court
14 yesterday when you heard about the two million dollars from
15 Mr. Minton. Is that what you're referring to?"
16 Answer, "Yes."
17 Did you give those answers to those questions,
18 ma'am?
19 A. That's when I understood how much he had paid? I
20 knew before that.
21 Q. Did you give these answers, ma'am, to these
22 questions?
23 A. I haven't had a chance to look over this and
24 correct it yet.
25 Q. Take a chance right now, ma'am. Read the question
18
1 and answer on Page 311.
2 A. Ken tells me every time he gets money.
3 Q. Ma'am, let me focus you specifically on the
4 question and answer, Lines 21 to 25, Page 311. Do you
5 remember being asked that question and giving that answer,
6 ten days ago?
7 A. I remember giving the answer, yes, yes.
8 Q. Okay. Now, was the answer true at the time you
9 gave it?
10 A. Well, I heard it then, but he also tells me every
11 time he gets money.
12 Q. Ms. Liebreich, listen to my question, please.
13 We'll get done a whole lot faster.
14 MR. LIROT: Judge, I'd object. We're
15 approaching the badgering limit here.
16 THE COURT: I don't think so.
17 BY MR. ROSEN:
18 Q. Ms. Liebreich, this will go a lot faster if you'd
19 try to please listen to my questions. They're very
20 specific. And try to answer what I ask you.
21 Do you remember giving that answer to that
22 question?
23 A. I see that I gave it. I guess I did.
24 Q. Ms. Liebreich, was the answer true when you gave
25 it?
19
1 A. I probably thought it was, but I can see that...
2 Q. Ms. Liebreich, is the answer true today? Yes or
3 no, ma'am.
4 A. Well, I heard about it then, but I also heard
5 about it before that, so it's true there the way I read it.
6 Q. Ms. Liebreich, when was the first time you were
7 told that there was a Mr. Minton who had contributed money
8 for the Estate's wrongful death case? When did you first
9 learn of that?
10 A. Back in 1997. I don't remember the date.
11 Q. 1997?
12 A. I believe that's when.
13 Q. And was the source of that information Mr. Dandar,
14 your attorney?
15 A. Right.
16 Q. How did he tell you this?
17 MR. LIROT: Objection, privileged.
18 MR. ROSEN: Excuse me, waived. Counsel
19 put it in a letter. He said, "I consulted my
20 client," in the letter to Mr. Minton, October
21 of '97.
22 "I've consulted my client, and she's
23 agreed to accept your donation."
24 He waived the privilege in the letter.
25 MR. LIROT: The letter speaks for itself.
20
1 Anything beyond that hasn't been waived.
2 THE COURT: I'll overrule the objection.
3 THE WITNESS: What was the question again?
4 MR. ROSEN: Can I ask you to read that
5 back, please?
6 THE COURT REPORTER: Question, "And was
7 the source of that information Mr. Dandar, your
8 attorney?"
9 Answer, "Right."
10 Question, "How did he tell you this?"
11 THE WITNESS: Well, he told me over the
12 phone and he sent me a letter.
13 BY MR. ROSEN:
14 Q. Do you have a copy of that letter that he sent
15 you?
16 A. I gave it to Ken. Ken has it.
17 Q. Ken has it.
18 Ma'am, I'm going to try real hard to make my
19 questions real simple. Do you have a copy of the letter
20 that Ken sent you?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Can I see it?
23 A. Not with me, I don't have.
24 Q. Where is it?
25 A. I don't know if I have it in my purse or not.
21
1 Q. Do you have your purse?
2 A. I don't know.
3 Q. May I hand you your purse?
4 A. No, thank you.
5 Q. Do you want your attorney to hand you your purse?
6 MR. LIROT: Judge, if Counsel could identify
7 what letter he's referring to, we'll locate it.
8 MR. ROSEN: The witness's letter from her
9 attorney to her advising her of Mr. Minton's
10 gift or donation, whatever you want to call it.
11 MR. LIROT: Is this the letter that was
12 marked as an exhibit and entered into evidence
13 today?
14 MR. ROSEN: I don't know. The witness is
15 testifying to a letter she received from
16 Mr. Dandar, Counsel. How would I know that?
17 How would I know?
18 MR. LIROT: Because you said it was the
19 letter that waived the privilege.
20 MR. ROSEN: No, she said that.
21 THE COURT: No, she said that. And I
22 think the point he's trying to make is he
23 doesn't know if this is a letter that was part
24 of the evidence or not. It may be another
25 letter.
22
1 MR. LIROT: We'll verify that, Judge.
2 BY MR. ROSEN:
3 Q. Okay. Ms. Liebreich, are you sure that in your
4 testimony that you learned about Mr. Minton and his
5 contribution of money in 1997 rather than 1998; are you
6 sure about that as you sit here today?
7 A. I knew about it before he sent the first check.
8 Q. The first check you know was sent in October of
9 '97.
10 A. Okay. I knew about it before he got the check.
11 Q. So, in other words, Ms. Liebreich, you have a very
12 firm recollection as you're sitting here today that you
13 knew about Mr. Minton making this contribution of money
14 before he made the first -- sent the first check in October
15 of '97. You're confident about that?
16 A. Yes, because Ken called me and he said --
17 Q. Fine, if the answer is, yes, are you certain about
18 it. Let's turn to Exhibit 17.
19 A. What page?
20 Q. Exhibit 17 is the next folder in front of you,
21 Ms. Liebreich.
22 A. Okay.
23 Q. This is portions of the deposition of Dell
24 Liebreich taken May 24th, 1999. I ask you to turn,
25 ma'am --
23
1 A. To what?
2 Q. -- to Page 164. And I will read to you starting
3 on Line 12.
4 Do you remember -- my question will be if you
5 remember being asked these questions and giving these
6 answers.
7 Question, "How did you first learn that
8 Mr. Minton was going to, I believe your words were, give
9 money or help finance the lawsuit?"
10 Answer, "Ken told me, I believe."
11 Question, "When was that approximately?"
12 Answer, "I can't remember the dates. It was
13 probably -- it was before we went down there in December of
14 '98, but I don't remember. It could have been November or
15 October. I don't remember."
16 Let me stop there. Do you remember being asked
17 those questions and giving those answers?
18 A. Right. I did not --
19 Q. So at that time, your recollection was it was just
20 before you came to Clearwater in December of '98, either a
21 month before or two months before, October or November,
22 right?
23 A. I was mistaken.
24 Q. Ms. Liebreich, you got a copy of this transcript
25 after it was prepared?
24
1 A. I'm sure I did.
2 Q. And it is your practice to read your deposition
3 transcripts and to make corrections if you've made
4 mistakes, right?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. You didn't make any corrections to this; did you,
7 ma'am?
8 A. I don't recall.
9 Q. Huh?
10 MR. LIROT: Objection, Your Honor. The
11 transcript speaks for itself. It says, "I
12 don't remember."
13 Rule of completeness.
14 MR. ROSEN: I read the, "I don't
15 remember."
16 BY MR. ROSEN:
17 Q. Did you make any changes?
18 A. I do not remember.
19 Q. Oh, you don't remember if you made any changes.
20 A. No, I don't.
21 Q. Ms. Liebreich, this deposition is three years ago.
22 Would you agree with me that your sworn testimony given
23 three years ago, your recollection might perhaps have been
24 better then than it is today?
25 A. It depends on what it was. I don't know.
25
1 Q. Listen to my question, ma'am: Would you agree
2 with me that your recollection of the events when you
3 testified three years ago would be perhaps better than your
4 recollection is today?
5 A. Not necessarily.
6 Q. So your testimony now is that Mr. Dandar told you
7 about this in October of '97 before the first check?
8 A. That's right.
9 Q. Ms. Liebreich, you have been deposed in this case
10 and in the wrongful death case several times, right?
11 A. Right.
12 Q. Do you agree with me that there is not one single
13 page, not one word of any deposition, in which you have
14 testified that you were told about Mr. Minton and his
15 contribution in October of '97?
16 MR. LIROT: Objection, Judge.
17 BY MR. ROSEN:
18 Q. Do you agree with me?
19 A. No.
20 MR. LIROT: Objection, date, time and place of
21 any such deposition. And I would also assert
22 the best evidence rule. I think the
23 correspondence Counsel refers to would be the
24 best evidence of whether any communications
25 took place.
26
1 MR. ROSEN: I didn't ask her about
2 correspondence, Your Honor.
3 THE COURT: I understand. The objection
4 is overruled.
5 THE WITNESS: What was the question again?
6 MR. ROSEN: Could I ask you to read back?
7 THE COURT REPORTER: Question, "Do you
8 agree with me that there is not one single
9 page, not one word of any deposition, in which
10 you have testified that you were told about
11 Mr. Minton and his contribution in October of
12 '97?"
13 THE WITNESS: I don't remember.
14 BY MR. ROSEN:
15 Q. Okay. Let's continue on on Page 164 of your
16 deposition transcript of May of 1999 starting with Line 22.
17 Do you remember being asked these questions and
18 giving these answers:
19 "How much money do you understand Mr. Minton
20 has given to you and your family with regard to financing
21 the lawsuit?"
22 Answer, "I think I saw on the internet a
23 couple -- a couple of hundred thousand or something like
24 that. I'm not sure."
25 Do you remember giving that answer?
27
1 A. I probably did, if it's here.
2 Q. Was it true at the time?
3 A. I didn't remember, probably.
4 Q. Do you think it's true now, Ms. Liebreich, this
5 answer?
6 A. No.
7 Q. It's not? It's a lie? Ma'am? This answer is
8 untrue?
9 MR. LIROT: Judge, I'm going to object. This
10 is calling for the witness to make some kind of
11 a legal conclusion as to the designation of
12 these funds.
13 And I think that Counsel is taking
14 advantage of a layperson's confusion over
15 certain issues about monies to make a big deal
16 out of something that quite candidly, Judge, I
17 don't think there's any semblance of any
18 misrepresentation or anything that's untrue.
19 I think if you look at the deposition, she
20 says, "I can't remember; I'm not sure," and
21 Counsel keeps trying to make her look like
22 she's been untruthful about this testimony, and
23 I think that clearly crosses the line of
24 badgering this witness.
25 THE COURT: I don't think so. Overruled.
28
1 BY MR. ROSEN:
2 Q. Answer my question, please, ma'am.
3 A. I'm not sure.
4 Q. Well, I want you to follow this for a moment. If
5 what you're telling us today, that Mr. Dandar told you
6 regularly as he received money from Mr. Minton, why would
7 it be necessary for you to find out about that on the
8 internet?
9 A. It wasn't necessary. I just happened to read it.
10 And he had already told me. I didn't keep up with it.
11 Q. Uh-huh.
12 You didn't say, "Mr. Dandar had told me how
13 much."
14 You said, "I think I saw it on the internet,"
15 right?
16 A. He always told me.
17 Q. That's what you said in your deposition, right?
18 A. That's what I said there, yes.
19 Q. Okay. Now, you will notice in the question the
20 question asks, "How much money do you understand Mr. Minton
21 has given to you and your family to finance the lawsuit?"
22 You didn't say, wait a minute, he hasn't given
23 me anything. All he did was loan money to Mr. Dandar as a
24 personal loan. You didn't say that; did you?
25 A. I didn't think it was necessary.
29
1 Q. Ms. Liebreich, at the time you gave this answer,
2 did you have in mind and had you been told by your Counsel
3 that the money was a personal loan to him, to Mr. Dandar?
4 A. I'm sure it was, yes.
5 Q. So that the correct answer as of May of '99 when
6 you were deposed would have been Mr. Minton hasn't given,
7 quote, you and your family -- he hasn't given you zero, not
8 one cent, right?
9 A. It was given to Mr. Dandar to use as he saw fit.
10 Q. And Mr. Dandar was present during this deposition
11 defending you, right?
12 A. I'm sure he was.
13 Q. Yeah, okay. Let's go back to one other thing in
14 this deposition and we'll move on.
15 Let's look at -- I will come back to that
16 exhibit.
17 Let's move on to the next one.
18 There's a folder in front of you that says
19 Exhibit 33.
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Okay. Would you open that one, please?
22 A. It's open.
23 Q. This is an affidavit of yours. Do you recognize
24 this?
25 A. Yes.
30
1 Q. And you signed this affidavit in December of 2000,
2 right?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. I want to direct your attention to Paragraph 2.
5 The first part denies that there was ever any binding
6 agreement. And then it says -- well, I will read the whole
7 thing so I don't take it out of context -- that affiant has
8 never entered into a binding agreement with Robert Minton
9 nor the Lisa McPherson Trust nor anyone else as to any
10 disposition of any funds obtained by the Estate of Lisa
11 McPherson in the wrongful death action pending against the
12 Church of Scientology in excess of any costs advanced by
13 Robert Minton to defray costs in litigation.
14 Was that affidavit true at the time you signed
15 it, ma'am?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. So what you're saying in that affidavit is that
18 Robert Minton advanced monies for the Estate's expenses in
19 litigation.
20 MR. LIROT: Objection, mischaracterizes the
21 evidence.
22 MR. ROSEN: Isn't that what you were
23 saying?
24 MR. LIROT: Objection. The document
25 speaks for itself.
31
1 THE COURT: Sustained.
2 BY MR. ROSEN:
3 Q. Is that what you meant to say?
4 MR. LIROT: Objection. The document speaks for
5 itself.
6 THE COURT: The objection was sustained.
7 BY MR. ROSEN:
8 Q. Okay. In truth, according to your testimony
9 today, Ms. Liebreich, Robert Minton has not advanced one
10 dime to, quote, defray costs in litigation; is that right?
11 MR. LIROT: Asked and answered.
12 THE COURT: Overruled.
13 BY MR. ROSEN:
14 Q. Is that right, ma'am?
15 A. He has not or has?
16 Q. He has not advanced not one dime to, quote, defray
17 the costs of litigation, closed quote.
18 A. Well, he has.
19 Q. He has? Can you show me where he has given you
20 money to defray the costs of litigation?
21 A. It's through Ken. He gave money to Ken. He
22 loaned money to Ken.
23 Q. He gave money to Ken that Ken had no obligation to
24 use to defray the costs of litigation, right? That's your
25 testimony.
32
1 A. I don't understand the law.
2 Q. Okay. Could you turn to Exhibit 53, ma'am, that's
3 in front of you? This is a deposition of you taken May
4 24th, 1999. Do you see that?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Turn to Page 209, please, ma'am, starting on Line
7 6.
8 Question, "As to what is left over after
9 Mr. Dandar is paid and the expenses are paid, what have you
10 discussed would represent the bulk of that as going to a
11 cult awareness group, what percentage of what is left
12 over?"
13 Answer, "We didn't set a figure. We have no
14 set percentage or anything.
15 MR. LIROT: Objection, lack of foundation.
16 THE COURT: Lack of foundation? Foundation for
17 what?
18 MR. LIROT: We don't know what they're
19 talking about, expenses are paid, bulk of what,
20 what percent of what is left over. Left over
21 from what? There's been no foundation talking
22 about what global thing we're talking about
23 here and what's left over.
24 MR. ROSEN: I will withdraw the question
25 and come back to it. I will put in a
33
1 foundation so Counsel will be satisfied.
2 BY MR. ROSEN:
3 Q. Let's turn to Page 252 for a moment.
4 So here again, Ms. Liebreich, I'm going to ask
5 you whether you remember being asked these questions and
6 giving these answers under oath, Line 14:
7 "Is it your understanding that Mr. Minton is
8 donating the money to the Estate for purposes of funding
9 the litigation?"
10 Answer, "Right."
11 Did you give that answer in 1999, ma'am?
12 A. I did.
13 Q. Was it true at the time?
14 A. Well, that's kind of the understanding, but it's
15 nothing...
16 Q. No. Did you believe that your answer was true at
17 the time that you gave it?
18 A. Unless I changed it, I did.
19 Q. I can't hear you, ma'am.
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. On May 24th, 1999 you believed that that answer
22 was true, right?
23 A. Apparently that's what I thought at the time.
24 Q. And you never signed any errata sheet and you
25 never changed that answer, right?
34
1 A. I don't remember.
2 Q. So tell me, Ms. Liebreich, what has happened
3 between May 24th, 1999 and today which has caused you to
4 change your understanding of the money from Mr. Minton?
5 What's happened?
6 A. Well, I have gone back and read some things that I
7 didn't remember.
8 Q. Tell me what you read.
9 A. That letter that Ken sent to me.
10 Q. The one that we have to have produced, yeah. What
11 else have you read that caused you to change your mind?
12 A. I don't remember.
13 Q. Huh?
14 A. I do not remember.
15 Q. Well, ma'am, with all due respect, if you read
16 something, you read it in the last ten days, right?
17 A. Not necessarily.
18 Q. Well, when did you read something that made you
19 change your mind, a year ago?
20 A. I don't remember.
21 Q. Ma'am, you've spent a good deal of time with your
22 Counsel since this motion was filed to disqualify
23 Mr. Dandar; haven't you? Haven't you?
24 A. Some time, yes.
25 Q. Some time? Spend all day yesterday?
35
1 A. No.
2 Q. Could you help me out and just think for a moment,
3 with the time you spent in connection with the last hearing
4 on April 19th and the time you spent in preparation for
5 this hearing, tell me, just in the last ten, twelve days,
6 what is it that you have seen that has caused you to change
7 your testimony about the Minton money other than this
8 letter which we're waiting for you to produce? Other than
9 that. Anything else?
10 MR. LIROT: Objection, calls for privileged
11 communications.
12 THE COURT: Well, to the extent that her
13 answer includes privileged communications, then
14 it would be sustained.
15 MR. LIROT: Thank you, Judge.
16 BY MR. ROSEN:
17 Q. Just identify the document. Just tell me it's a
18 letter from so and so to so and so, it's a deposition, it's
19 an affidavit.
20 Tell me what you've seen, ma'am, that's caused
21 you to change your testimony.
22 A. I don't remember.
23 Q. You don't remember? Okay. Well, maybe you will
24 have a chance to think about it over lunch and then maybe
25 you'll be able to tell us. Let's move on to Exhibit 32.
36
1 Do you have Exhibit 32 in front of you, Ms. Liebreich?
2 A. I'm getting it.
3 Q. Okay. Good. This is another portion of the same
4 deposition of May 24th, 1999 of you, you being represented
5 by Ken Dandar.
6 I want you to turn to Page 173, and I want to
7 direct your attention to the questions and answers starting
8 on Line 10 and going through Line 17.
9 And I will ask you again whether you remember
10 being asked these questions and giving these answers under
11 sworn oath, ma'am.
12 Question, "Well, do you consider the money that
13 Mr. Minton has given to be money for the benefit of the
14 Estate of Lisa McPherson?"
15 Answer, "Yes."
16 Question, "So it is not Mr. Dandar's money to
17 go buy his wife an anniversary gift or himself some
18 personal item; is that correct?"
19 Answer, "Right."
20 Did you give those answers?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. And you gave them under the same oath that you
23 took before taking the witness stand today, right, in this
24 courtroom?
25 A. Right.
37
1 Q. Ms. Liebreich, are those answers true?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Were they true when you gave them on May 24th,
4 1999?
5 A. To my best understanding.
6 Q. And they're true today; aren't they, ma'am?
7 A. Well --
8 Q. Because if you say they're not, I'm going to ask
9 you what caused you to change your mind, so think about it.
10 Are these answers true today or not?
11 A. The money was a loan to Mr. Dandar. I --
12 Q. Are these answers true today? Yes or no.
13 MR. LIROT: Objection, Judge. He's
14 interrupting the witness.
15 THE COURT: The witness was not being
16 responsive.
17 THE WITNESS: It's a loan to him. I feel
18 like he can do what he wants to with it.
19 BY MR. ROSEN:
20 Q. I'm going to ask you one more time, Ms. Liebreich.
21 I just read you questions and answers from Line 10 to Line
22 17.
23 I ask you again. Are those answers that you
24 gave to those two questions, are they true today? Yes or
25 no, ma'am.
38
1 A. Well, I still say it's a loan to him.
2 Q. Okay. Ms. Liebreich, you understand what the oath
3 is that you've taken to swear to tell the truth, right?
4 A. I tell the truth.
5 Q. And you wouldn't commit perjury in this courtroom
6 just because Mr. Dandar asked you to; would you?
7 A. Never. Mr. Dandar would never ask me to commit
8 perjury.
9 Q. So when you testified earlier today at the
10 beginning of this examination that it was your
11 understanding that this was a personal loan to Mr. Dandar
12 from Mr. Minton for Mr. Dandar to use any way he wanted,
13 including buying his wife an anniversary gift, Mr. Dandar
14 didn't tell you to say that; you decided to say that,
15 right?
16 A. I said it.
17 Q. Okay. Let's move on to Page 174 of the same
18 deposition.
19 Line 14, just so we understand that you weren't
20 asked this question once, Ms. Liebreich, you were asked
21 this question many times, Line 14:
22 "Is it your understanding that Mr. Minton is
23 donating the money to the Estate for purposes of funding
24 the litigation?"
25 Answer, "Right."
39
1 Did you give that answer under oath, ma'am?
2 A. Yes, because that's what he's spending it for.
3 Q. Was it true at the time, ma'am?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Is it true today?
6 A. That's what he's spending it for.
7 Q. That's what who is spending it for?
8 A. Ken is spending the money for that.
9 Q. For what?
10 A. For the litigation.
11 Q. How do you know that? Have you ever gotten an
12 accounting of what he's spent of the 2 million? Yes or no,
13 ma'am.
14 A. I'll take his word for it.
15 Q. Okay. Well, since you're going to tell me you
16 take his word for it, tell me what he told you on the
17 subject.
18 MR. LIROT: Objection, privileged.
19 THE COURT: Sustained.
20 MR. ROSEN: I think, Your Honor, this is
21 calling for it, this privileged --
22 MR. LIROT: There's no foundation for
23 that, Judge.
24 THE COURT: Objection sustained.
25 BY MR. ROSEN:
40
1 Q. Was it true on May 24th, 1999 that it was your
2 understanding that Mr. Minton donated the money to the
3 Estate? Yes or no, ma'am.
4 MR. LIROT: Asked and answered.
5 THE COURT: Sustained.
6 BY MR. ROSEN:
7 Q. Ms. Liebreich, have you ever made a tape recording
8 thanking Mr. Minton for his donations to the Estate?
9 A. The only recording that I recall was -- I believe
10 it was the second anniversary of the trust. And someone --
11 I believe it was Mark Bunker -- called and said he was
12 making a tape -- it might have been someone else -- and
13 wanted to send Bob a thank-you tape. And I did say to him
14 how much I appreciated what he had done. And I don't
15 remember what I said, but I -- which I did appreciate what
16 he did.
17 Q. Now, on that tape, ma'am, you said that you wanted
18 to thank Mr. Minton for the money he had given to the
19 Estate to fund the wrongful death case, right?
20 A. I don't remember what I said.
21 MR. LIROT: Objection. Your Honor, we need to
22 see the tape.
23 MR. ROSEN: You don't remember?
24 THE COURT: Just a second. When there's
25 an objection, I'd appreciate it if you could
41
1 please just hold off.
2 MR. ROSEN: I'm sorry, Your Honor. I
3 apologize.
4 THE COURT: Your objection is?
5 MR. LIROT: We need to see the tape if
6 he's going to ask her questions about what she
7 knows about this tape.
8 THE COURT: I think he can ask her
9 questions without having the tape here. If it
10 becomes an issue, maybe we'll have to get the
11 tape. If she knows, fine. If she doesn't,
12 fine. Let's find out what her response is.
13 THE WITNESS: I told you what I
14 remembered, thanking him. I don't remember
15 word by word what I said.
16 BY MR. ROSEN:
17 Q. Well, let me see if I can help refresh your
18 recollection with your testimony of ten days ago. Can you
19 turn to Exhibit 61, please, ma'am, Page 354.
20 A. 61?
21 Q. Yeah, Exhibit 61.
22 A. Page what?
23 Q. Page 354. See it?
24 And in the first several lines you're referring
25 to this tape on the second anniversary just as you've just
42
1 said, and we come down to the question on Line 12.
2 "You thanked him," him being Mr. Minton, "for
3 the money he had given to the Estate to fund the case."
4 Answer, "Yes, yes."
5 Do you remember giving those answers?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Were those answers true at the time?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Okay. So at the time that you answered this under
10 oath, you were referring to the statement on the tape in
11 which you thanked Mr. Minton for giving money, a, to the
12 Estate and, b, to fund the wrongful death case, right?
13 A. Mr. Dandar was paying the expenses out of that
14 money.
15 MR. ROSEN: Move to strike it as not
16 responsive, Your Honor.
17 THE COURT: Overruled.
18 BY MR. ROSEN:
19 Q. Okay. Now, did Mr. Dandar tell you who the Swiss
20 bank checks were from?
21 A. He didn't know.
22 Q. Is that what he said to you?
23 A. He told me he didn't know who they were from.
24 Q. When did he tell you that, ma'am?
25 A. Well, the day he received them.
43
1 Q. So, in other words, you have a recollection in
2 March of the year -- excuse me -- in May of the year 2000
3 that Mr. Dandar said I just got this check -- in words or
4 substance -- I just got a Swiss bank check for $500,000 and
5 I don't know whose money it is. Is that what he said to
6 you in words or substance?
7 MR. LIROT: Objection, attorney/client
8 privilege.
9 THE COURT: I think the privilege has been
10 waived. She's already testified to it.
11 Overruled.
12 BY MR. ROSEN:
13 Q. Is that your testimony?
14 A. He called me, yes, and told me, he says, "I don't
15 know who it's from."
16 Q. I want you to think about this conversation. What
17 time of day was this?
18 A. Two years ago? I have no idea.
19 Q. I can't hear you, ma'am.
20 A. I have no earthly idea.
21 Q. What day of the week was it?
22 A. I don't know.
23 Q. So is it correct that the only thing you remember
24 about this conversation on the telephone is Mr. Dandar
25 calling you and saying, "I just got a check for $500,000
44
1 and I don't know who it's from."
2 Is that it?
3 A. Right, that's right.
4 Q. Do you remember anything else about that
5 conversation?
6 A. I didn't ask him and he didn't tell me that I
7 remember.
8 Q. So he didn't tell you, for example, who handed him
9 the check, huh?
10 A. I didn't ask.
11 Q. And he didn't say?
12 A. I do not remember if he did.
13 Q. And he didn't say anything about some mysterious
14 fat man in Switzerland being the one who donated the money;
15 did he?
16 A. I don't remember. He might have.
17 Q. You don't remember -- as you sit here today, you
18 don't remember any mention of any fat man in this
19 conversation of May of 2000; do you, ma'am?
20 A. I don't remember.
21 Q. Okay. But you're sure that he told you about this
22 in March of -- in May of 2000. That, you're certain of,
23 right?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Okay. Let's turn to Exhibit 61 again. And I
45
1 would like to go through a couple of other portions of your
2 testimony of April 20th.
3 Let's start with Page 400, ma'am.
4 Bottom of 400, top of 401, question, "You heard
5 yesterday the assertions that Mr. Dandar bought some
6 property with some of this money?"
7 Answer, "Yeah, I heard that."
8 Question, "Do you know it's true?"
9 Answer, "I'm sure it is not."
10 Question, "Why?"
11 Answer, "Because he told me it was not true."
12 Did Mr. Dandar tell you it was not true that he
13 used some of the Minton/Swiss money to buy real estate? Is
14 that what you're saying here?
15 A. He didn't tell me that.
16 Q. Did Mr. Dandar tell you it is not true that he
17 used any of Minton's money to buy any real estate?
18 A. He said they're lying or something like that. He
19 didn't do it.
20 Q. Got you. And continuing on to Page 401, after you
21 say it's not true, question, "You wouldn't want him,"
22 meaning Mr. Dandar, "to do that; would you?"
23 Answer, "No."
24 Do you see that?
25 A. What line is it?
46
1 Q. Lines 5, 6 and 7 on Page 401.
2 A. I see it.
3 Q. And that was the truth, right?
4 A. Well, he wouldn't do it.
5 Q. And you didn't want him to use any of that money
6 from Mr. Minton to buy real estate or something for
7 himself; is that right?
8 A. If he wanted to, he could.
9 Q. Huh?
10 A. If he wanted to, he could.
11 Q. But you didn't want him to do that, right?
12 A. Well, I didn't want him to, but it would be all
13 right.
14 Q. Let's go to Page 469, bottom of the page, Line 19.
15 This is all your testimony of ten days ago, ma'am.
16 Question, "You became aware of that through a
17 conversation with Mr. Dandar, that he had received $250,000
18 in March?"
19 Answer, "Yes."
20 That's March of 2002. You remember that,
21 right?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Question, "What was your understanding of what he
24 was going to do with that money?"
25 Answer, "Well, I assumed he was going to pay
47
1 bills. He was going to go out --"
2 Excuse me.
3 "I assumed he was going to pay bills."
4 Is that what he told you?
5 MR. LIROT: Objection, Judge. There's clearly
6 a comma, a the missing page.
7 MR. ROSEN: Counsel is right. I just
8 noticed it. Page 470 is missing. Let me start
9 again at the bottom of 69.
10 BY MR. ROSEN:
11 Q. Question, "What was your understanding of what he
12 was going to do with that money?"
13 Answer, "Well, I assumed he's going to pay
14 bills, just like he had with the other money."
15 "Pay bills in this case?" Question.
16 Answer, "Right, in the wrongful death case."
17 Did Mr. Dandar tell you he used the money to
18 pay bills in the wrongful death case?
19 MR. LIROT: Objection, privileged.
20 THE WITNESS: I don't have that page. I
21 don't know what you're reading from.
22 THE COURT: Overruled.
23 MR. ROSEN: Huh?
24 THE WITNESS: I don't have that page. I
25 don't know what you're reading.
48
1 BY MR. ROSEN:
2 Q. I'm reading from your deposition. Do you want me
3 to read it again?
4 A. Can I have a copy of it?
5 Q. Yeah. Here is Page 470.
6 A. Well, 470 is not in here.
7 Q. Here.
8 A. What was your question?
9 MR. ROSEN: Can you read back?
10 THE COURT REPORTER: Question, "Did Mr. Dandar
11 tell you he used the money to pay bills in the wrongful
12 death case?"
13 BY MR. ROSEN:
14 Q. Is that what he told you?
15 A. I'm sure he did.
16 Q. I will read to you from Line 15 -- starting at
17 Line 15, Page 470.
18 Question, "And it was your understanding he was
19 going to cover expenses in this case with that
20 money -- that money being the $250,000 in March of
21 2002 -- right?
22 Answer, "Right."
23 "And that's all he was going to do with it,
24 right?"
25 Mr. Dandar objects.
49
1 Answer, "As far as I know."
2 Question, "Okay. I mean, you didn't think
3 somebody -- and then to the top of 471 -- was going to go
4 out and buy a warehouse or something with it, did you?
5 Answer, "No."
6 Were those answers true when you gave them ten
7 days ago?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. So you expected that Mr. Dandar was going to use
10 all of the $250,000 that he got in March of 2002 to pay
11 bills and for expenses in the wrongful death case; is that
12 right, ma'am?
13 MR. LIROT: Objection. Her assumptions are
14 irrelevant.
15 THE COURT: Overruled.
16 BY MR. ROSEN:
17 Q. Is that right, ma'am?
18 A. That's what I thought, I guess.
19 THE COURT: Okay. Mr. Rosen, we're going to
20 have to break.
21 MR. ROSEN: Okay.
22 THE COURT: We're going to take a break for
23 lunch and return at 1:30.
24 (Thereupon, the luncheon recess was held.)
25 THE COURT: Ms. Liebreich, if you will resume.
50
1 You're still under oath, ma'am.
2 MR. ROSEN: Your Honor, may I approach?
3 This is substitute Exhibit 61 that has the
4 missing page in it.
5 BY MR. ROSEN:
6 Q. Ms. Liebreich, have you had a chance during the
7 luncheon recess to visit with your purse?
8 A. To visit with whom?
9 Q. Your purse.
10 A. It's not in my purse.
11 Q. What do you think happened to this letter you're
12 telling us about?
13 A. It's at home, I'm sure, in my files.
14 Q. You left it at home in Texas?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. When is the last time you saw it, ma'am?
17 A. Probably a couple of weeks ago. I don't remember.
18 Q. You just forgot to bring it with you; did you?
19 A. Apparently.
20 Q. Okay. Ms. Liebreich, before I continue to review
21 with you your prior deposition testimony, I would like to
22 ask you something to make sure you have an understanding of
23 something.
24 You know that in this case before Judge Baird
25 that not only is the Estate a defendant but you are a
51
1 personal defendant? You know that, right?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. You know that the Plaintiff is looking for a
4 judgment against you personally, meaning that you would
5 need to pay that out of your own funds, not any estate
6 funds or anybody else's money. You understand that, right?
7 I'm sorry, ma'am?
8 A. It's against me personally?
9 Q. Yes.
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Did you know that?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Have you ever had a judgment entered against you
14 personally?
15 A. Not to my knowledge, no.
16 Q. Okay. Well, if somebody ever got a judgment
17 against you, that's something you might remember; isn't it?
18 A. I would think so.
19 Q. Okay. Do you understand that in this case the
20 Plaintiff is asking for a judgment against you personally,
21 meaning that it would seize your bank accounts or whatever
22 assets you have?
23 Do you understand that that's the Plaintiff's
24 request here?
25 A. Well, I hope not.
52
1 Q. You don't know? I mean, that was never explained
2 to you by anyone?
3 MR. LIROT: It's privileged, Your Honor.
4 THE COURT: Sustained.
5 BY MR. ROSEN:
6 Q. Anyone outside of Counsel.
7 A. No.
8 Q. And if a judgment were entered against you
9 personally, you don't have any expectation anybody else is
10 going to pay it; do you?
11 MR. LIROT: Objection on relevance.
12 THE COURT: Sustained.
13 BY MR. ROSEN:
14 Q. Do you understand, Ms. Liebreich, that if Judge
15 Baird were to find that you have not told the truth, one of
16 the remedies the law gives him is to strike your answer and
17 enter a default in favor of the Plaintiff?
18 MR. LIROT: Objection, speculation. Calls for
19 legal conclusion.
20 THE COURT: Overruled.
21 THE WITNESS: Well, I'm telling the truth.
22 BY MR. ROSEN:
23 Q. Do you understand what I just said to you?
24 A. I understand what you said.
25 Q. And all of the answers that you gave before the
53
1 luncheon recess, you stand on those, right?
2 A. I do.
3 Q. They're the truth, the whole truth and nothing but
4 the truth, right, Ms. Liebreich?
5 A. To the best of my memory.
6 Q. All right. Let's turn again to Exhibit 61, a
7 transcript of your deposition ten days ago. I will ask you
8 to turn to Page 344. And I will direct your attention to
9 Lines 6 through 12 -- excuse me -- 6 through 9.
10 Were you asked the following questions and did
11 you give the following answers:
12 Question, "All right. How many times did you
13 consent to Mr. Minton providing money for the Estate?"
14 Answer, "Anytime he wanted to. I don't know
15 how many times. Anytime he wanted to."
16 Was that answer true at the time that you gave
17 it?
18 A. Right.
19 Q. And continuing on Line 10 through 12, you were
20 asked the following question, "But Mr. Dandar called you a
21 number of times and said do you consent to the Estate
22 having this money from Minton?"
23 And your answer, which appears on Page 345,
24 Line 2 is, answer, "Yes."
25 Was that true ten days ago?
54
1 A. Well, I'm sure whatever I said was true to the
2 best of my knowledge.
3 Q. Okay. And continuing on Lines 3 and 4 on Page
4 345, you were then asked the question, "What did you think
5 you were consenting to?"
6 And your answer was, "Receiving some money from
7 Mr. Minton."
8 Do you see that?
9 A. Right.
10 Q. And was that answer true when you gave it ten days
11 ago?
12 A. Right.
13 Q. And it's true today, right?
14 A. Right.
15 Q. Please turn to Page 347.
16 And I want to direct your attention first to
17 Lines 4 through 16.
18 Again, I will ask you if you were asked these
19 questions and gave these answers.
20 Question, "Now, you heard yesterday about a
21 $500,000 check that Mr. Dandar received in May of 2000. Do
22 you remember that?"
23 Answer, "The $500,000, yes."
24 Question, "Yeah. Do you know about that
25 $500,000 --"
55
1 Answer, "Yes."
2 Question, "-- check when it came in?"
3 Answer, "Yes."
4 "How did you know about that?"
5 Answer, "He said he didn't know who it was
6 from."
7 Question, "But that was for the funding of the
8 Estate too, right?"
9 Answer, "Right."
10 Did you give those answers?
11 A. I did.
12 Q. And were they true when you gave them ten days
13 ago?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. And are they true today?
16 A. Yes, to the best of my knowledge.
17 Q. Okay. Continuing on starting on Line 17.
18 A. I take that back. Let me read that again.
19 Q. Sure. Take your time.
20 A. Well, it was given to Ken for whatever he wanted
21 to spend it for, but they did say funding the Estate. So
22 if he wanted to spend it for that, that's right.
23 Q. Continuing on -- are you done with your answer,
24 ma'am?
25 A. Right.
56
1 Q. Yeah?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. The answer that you gave that appears on -- the
4 answers that appear on Lines 4 through 16, are they true
5 today or not? Yes or no would be sufficient.
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Good. Okay. Line 17, question, "Do you know
8 about the $250,000 check in March of 2002?"
9 Answer, "I did."
10 Question, "Mr. Dandar told you about it?"
11 Answer, "Yes."
12 Going over to Page 348, Lines 1 through 3, "So
13 you knew that money came in for the litigation of this case
14 and the Estate."
15 Answer, "Right."
16 Were those answers true when you gave them ten
17 days ago, ma'am?
18 A. Well, that's what I said.
19 Q. I know that's what you said. My question is were
20 those answers true under oath? Were they true ten days
21 ago?
22 A. Well, Ken has been spending the money for the
23 Estate.
24 Q. Are they true today, ma'am?
25 A. Yes.
57
1 Q. Okay. Let's turn to Page 439, Line 19.
2 Question, "Okay. It's your testimony that you
3 knew about the $500,000 that Mr. Dandar had gotten from
4 Mr. Minton."
5 A. What line? What line?
6 Q. I'm sorry, ma'am, Line 19 on Page 439.
7 "Okay. It's your testimony that you knew about
8 the $500,000 that Mr. Dandar had gotten from Mr. Minton in
9 May of 2000, correct?"
10 Answer, "Right, right."
11 So was that answer true?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. So you knew, then, the check for $500,000 that
14 came to Mr. Dandar in May of 2000, Mr. Dandar had gotten,
15 quote, from Mr. Minton, closed quote. Is that right?
16 A. Well, I think he said Mr. Minton gave it to him,
17 but he didn't know who it came from. I don't remember
18 exactly what it was.
19 Q. You can't remember what he said?
20 A. No.
21 Q. Okay. And then after the examination of you on
22 direct examination was completed, Mr. Dandar, your
23 attorney, then cross-examined you ten days ago, right?
24 A. Right.
25 Q. So let's turn to Page 463, starting on Line 3, and
58
1 here's the question -- I'm sorry -- starting on Line 5,
2 actually. Here's the question Mr. Dandar asked you:
3 "Is it your understanding that the money that
4 Robert Minton gave to Dandar & Dandar, P.A. or to Ken
5 Dandar, your attorney, is a loan to Ken Dandar or the
6 P.A.?"
7 Answer, "Yes," right?
8 A. Right.
9 Q. On cross-examination ten days ago, ma'am, this is
10 the first time you have ever said in any affidavit or
11 deposition that the money from Mr. Minton was a loan to Ken
12 Dandar; isn't that right?
13 A. I don't know whether I've said it before or not.
14 Q. Well, I'm asking you. As you sit here, do you
15 have a recollection of ever saying in a deposition, in an
16 affidavit, in a court hearing, anywhere, anywhere in the
17 five years before April 20th, 2002, did you ever say in
18 words or substance, "Mr. Minton's money was a loan to Ken
19 Dandar"? Yes or no.
20 A. I just answered you. I don't remember. Possibly
21 I have. I don't remember.
22 Q. Now, Mr. Dandar didn't tell you to give that
23 answer that I just read to you; did he?
24 A. No.
25 Q. He didn't tell you to lie; did he?
59
1 A. He's never told me to lie, or anyone else.
2 Q. He didn't tell you to lie in connection with this
3 question, right, and this answer?
4 A. No.
5 Q. So you decided to provide this answer on your own,
6 right?
7 A. I'm sure I did.
8 Q. Okay. You know that one of the other issues in
9 this case is the matter of the agreement made -- alleged
10 agreement made -- between the Estate and Mr. Minton that,
11 in substance, after the costs and expenses are paid, out of
12 any settlement or recovery in the wrongful death case, the,
13 quote, bulk of the recovery would be donated to some
14 anti-cult group? Are you aware that's one of the issues in
15 the case?
16 A. Well, that's what my sisters and brother -- we
17 kind of talked about it. There's no agreement.
18 Q. Did you agree amongst yourselves to that?
19 A. We talked about it. We had nothing in writing.
20 Q. Did you agree or not, ma'am?
21 A. We have nothing in writing.
22 Q. Ma'am, you're not answering my question. I didn't
23 ask you if there was anything in writing.
24 I asked you if you and your sisters and brother
25 agreed that after expenses, the bulk of any recovery in the
60
1 wrongful death case would be contributed to an anti-cult
2 group. Yes or no, ma'am.
3 A. Orally, yes.
4 Q. Okay. And that was communicated to Mr. Minton,
5 right --
6 A. Possibly.
7 Q. -- by your attorney, Mr. Dandar, right?
8 A. Right.
9 Q. Huh?
10 A. Possibly.
11 Q. In 1997, that was communicated, right?
12 A. I don't remember when it was.
13 Q. Can you tell me when it was that you and your
14 siblings agreed orally that the bulk of any recovery from
15 the wrongful death case would be donated to an anti-cult
16 group?
17 A. I cannot remember.
18 Q. Tell me approximately what year you think it was,
19 ma'am.
20 A. I don't remember.
21 Q. Well, do me a favor. Before you jump to say you
22 don't remember, give it a moment of thought. It's
23 somewhere between 1997 and today. So see if you can help
24 me out. When was it?
25 A. It could have been '97, '98, '99 or 2000 or 2001.
61
1 I don't remember.
2 Q. It could have been any of those years, huh?
3 Okay. Let me see if I can help refresh your
4 recollection, ma'am. Let's turn to Exhibit 53.
5 This is a deposition of yours taken on May
6 24th, 1999. And I will direct your attention to Page 198.
7 A. Which one? 53?
8 Q. 53, ma'am.
9 A. I don't have a 53 that I see. I have 57, 56, 55,
10 54. I have a 33.
11 Q. 53.
12 A. 61, 32.
13 MR. ROSEN: May I approach, Your Honor?
14 THE COURT: Sure.
15 THE WITNESS: Here it is.
16 BY MR. ROSEN:
17 Q. Oh, you have it? Good. Exhibit 53 -- Page 198,
18 Ms. Liebreich.
19 Do you have it, ma'am?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Okay. I'm going to direct your attention to a
22 question. Actually, the question begins on Line 19.
23 "Is it an accurate description of your
24 agreement that -- is it correct -- that you on behalf of
25 the Estate of Lisa McPherson have agreed to donate the bulk
62
1 of any money that you get out of this case to a
2 cult-awareness group? Is that accurate?
3 Answer, "Yes."
4 Do you remember being asked that question and
5 giving that answer?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. By the way, Ms. Liebreich, if you look at this
8 deposition of May of 1999, does that help in any way to
9 refresh your recollection as to when this agreement was
10 made?
11 A. Maybe it was '99. I don't remember when we talked
12 about it. It probably was '99.
13 Q. Could we agree that it was before May 24th, 1999,
14 ma'am?
15 A. Probably, yes.
16 Q. Probably. Okay. And let's go over to the top of
17 Page 199, then, continuing on, "Has that been discussed
18 with your other siblings?"
19 Answer, "Yes."
20 "And they have agreed to that?"
21 Answer, "Yes."
22 Do you remember being asked those questions and
23 giving those answers?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. And were they true at the time?
63
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Okay. Let's turn, now, to Exhibit 54, ma'am. And
3 I will direct your attention to Page 25. This is the
4 deposition of your sister, Lee Skelton.
5 A. Page what?
6 Q. 25. This is the deposition of your sister Lee
7 Skelton, right?
8 A. Okay.
9 Q. And Ms. Skeleton is one of the people -- one of
10 the beneficiaries, if you would, who would ultimately share
11 in any recovery in the wrongful death case, right?
12 A. Right.
13 Q. Okay. You'll notice -- I won't read this to you,
14 but I will ask you to read it to yourself -- the question
15 begins on Line 19 on Page 25, and the answer goes to the
16 top of Line 3 on Page 26.
17 If you will read that to myself, my only
18 question is going to be whether or not you have any
19 disagreement with that statement or whether your sister
20 told the truth.
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. She told the truth, right?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Okay. Let's go to Exhibit 55, ma'am. This is a
25 deposition of another one of your sisters, Ann Carlson,
64
1 correct?
2 A. It looks that way.
3 Q. Say again?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Okay. And Ms. Carlson also would be a beneficiary
6 of any of the recovery in the wrongful death case?
7 A. Right.
8 Q. So let's turn, ma'am, to Page 19, and I will
9 direct your attention to -- and you can read to yourself
10 the question which appears on Line 8 and the answer which
11 goes down to Line 20.
12 Why don't you read that to yourself, and then
13 I'm going to ask you whether or not your sister told the
14 truth, whether that's true to your knowledge.
15 A. As far as I know, it's true.
16 Q. Okay. Good. Now we go to Exhibit 56. Exhibit 56
17 is another deposition of your sister Ann Carlson. This one
18 is July 27, 2000. Do you see that?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. And I will direct your attention, ma'am, to Page
21 225.
22 A. All right.
23 Q. I will ask you to read the questions and answers
24 starting on Line 13 and going down to the bottom of the
25 page on Line 25. Take your time and read it to yourself.
65
1 A. What was the question?
2 Q. Have you finished reading it, ma'am?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. To the best of your knowledge, your sister gave
5 truthful testimony there, right?
6 A. To the best of her knowledge, I'm sure she did.
7 Q. Now, Ms. Liebreich, did there come a time in 2000
8 when there was any discussion about not making any more
9 public statements about an agreement to donate the bulk of
10 the proceeds?
11 A. Was there --
12 Q. I will repeat the question. Did there come a time
13 towards the end of the year 2000 when you had discussions
14 with anyone on the subject of let's not make anymore
15 statements about this agreement to donate the bulk of the
16 proceeds?
17 A. No.
18 Q. No.
19 Okay. So I would assume, then, from what we've
20 just gone over that as far as you're concerned as you sit
21 here today, the intention and understanding of you and your
22 siblings remains to contribute the bulk of the proceeds of
23 any wrongful death recovery to an anti-cult group, right?
24 A. I don't know whether we would or not. I don't
25 know. We have no money...
66
1 Q. Did something happen to make you change your mind?
2 A. Well, that's possible.
3 Q. Well, and so is my becoming 5'10 tomorrow, but not
4 likely. So let me ask you again.
5 Apart from possibility, anything that you can
6 recall happen that made you change your mind?
7 A. I don't know about the rest of my siblings, but
8 I've changed my mind.
9 Q. I'm asking you. You didn't change your mind?
10 A. Well, after the way Mr. Minton testified against
11 Dan -- or Ken --
12 Q. You've changed your mind? You have changed your
13 mind.
14 A. I feel like I have.
15 Q. Okay. And that was just recently, right?
16 A. Right.
17 Q. Let's turn to -- you have a file Exhibit 33 in
18 front of you, ma'am.
19 Do you see that, Ms. Liebreich?
20 A. I haven't found it yet. Here it is.
21 Q. Okay. Exhibit 33 is an affidavit of yours. Is
22 that your signature on the second page?
23 A. Yes, it is.
24 Q. And you swore to this affidavit on the 20th of
25 December 2000, correct?
67
1 A. Yes.
2 MR. LIROT: Asked and answered, Judge.
3 MR. ROSEN: Say again?
4 MR. LIROT: The question has been asked
5 and answered. We've already gone through this
6 affidavit.
7 THE WITNESS: You did. You asked that
8 earlier.
9 THE COURT: Overruled. Proceed.
10 THE WITNESS: You asked it earlier.
11 BY MR. ROSEN:
12 Q. Ms. Liebreich, let me direct your attention to the
13 first part of Paragraph 2, that, "Affiant has never entered
14 into a binding agreement with Robert Minton nor the Lisa
15 McPherson Trust nor anyone else as to the disposition of
16 funds."
17 Let me stop there. Do you see that?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Now, you did enter into an agreement, but the
20 agreement, you're saying in here -- what you meant to say
21 is that the agreement is just not binding.
22 A. A verbal agreement, nothing in writing.
23 Q. Right. So because the agreement is verbal,
24 nothing in writing, in your mind it's not binding.
25 A. Right.
68
1 Q. Now, I want to be careful about this. If you can
2 answer this question, please, yes or no.
3 Have you received any legal advice on the
4 subject of whether a verbal agreement is binding or
5 non-binding? Just yes or no would be good enough.
6 A. No.
7 Q. So you somehow concluded in your own mind that if
8 the agreement is not in writing, it's not binding; you
9 don't have to honor it, right? Is that right?
10 A. I haven't thought about it.
11 Q. Well, isn't that what you meant when you said it's
12 not binding because it's not in writing?
13 A. Right.
14 Q. Okay. Paragraph 3 of the affidavit, you are here
15 testifying that the Lisa McPherson Trust has not advanced
16 any funds to defray costs in the wrongful death case,
17 right?
18 A. Right.
19 Q. Did you make any inquiry of anyone as to whether
20 that statement was true before you swore to it?
21 A. No, I don't believe I did.
22 Q. No? Who drafted this affidavit?
23 A. It seems like to me the reason it was drawn up was
24 that Scientology kept bugging, bugging about Mr. Minton
25 running the lawsuit and running everything and all of that,
69
1 and I just -- we just decided to do that.
2 Q. Well, I appreciate that, ma'am, but can you tell
3 me who prepared this affidavit?
4 A. Well, Ken's office did.
5 Q. Whose idea was it to file an affidavit saying
6 there's no binding agreement?
7 MR. LIROT: Objection, privileged.
8 THE COURT: Sustained.
9 BY MR. ROSEN:
10 Q. Now, ma'am, are you aware that Mr. Lirot has filed
11 an appearance as additional counsel representing you and
12 the Estate in this case?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. You never spoke to Mr. Lirot, never hired him,
15 right? Is that right?
16 A. Me personally hire him?
17 Q. Yeah.
18 A. No.
19 Q. Well, you say you personally, ma'am. Do you
20 understand Mr. Lirot is representing you personally in this
21 case before Judge Baird? You understand that, right?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. You never hired him, you never spoke to him about
24 that, right?
25 A. I've talked with him.
70
1 Q. No. You never hired him. You never spoke to him
2 about hiring him, right?
3 A. I talked to Ken about hiring him, yes.
4 Q. Mr. Dandar is the one who hired him, right?
5 A. Well, after our discussions.
6 Q. You never met or heard of Mr. Lirot. Mr. Dandar
7 hired him, right?
8 A. I just answered your question.
9 Q. Who is paying him?
10 MR. LIROT: Objection.
11 THE COURT: Sustained.
12 BY MR. ROSEN:
13 Q. You're aware, as well, that Mr. Lirot has appeared
14 as counsel for the Estate in the wrongful death case?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Mr. Dandar made that decision, right?
17 A. We discussed it.
18 Q. Ms. Liebreich, isn't it true that you didn't know
19 anything about Mr. Lirot appearing as counsel for the
20 Estate in the wrongful death case until he already did it
21 and Mr. Dandar told you about it? Isn't that true?
22 A. No, that's not true.
23 Q. And you never signed any agreement with Mr. Lirot
24 to represent you or the Estate in this case, right?
25 A. I have not.
71
1 Q. And you've not signed any agreement with Mr. Lirot
2 to represent the Estate in the wrongful death case, right?
3 A. Not yet.
4 Q. Have you been asked to? I said, have you been
5 asked to?
6 A. Not yet.
7 MR. ROSEN: Okay. Nothing further, Your
8 Honor.
9 I will offer into evidence the exhibits
10 that we've used in the examination of this
11 witness so I don't forget like I did last time.
12 And they are the portion of Exhibit 56,
13 the portion of Exhibit 55, the portion of
14 Exhibit 61 -- all of these are
15 transcripts -- the portion of Exhibit 54, the
16 portion of Exhibit 53, Exhibit 33, the portion
17 of Exhibit 57, Exhibit 17 -- a portion of
18 Exhibit 17; I'm sorry -- the portion of Exhibit
19 32.
20 And that, I believe, is all of them, Your
21 Honor. I would offer them into evidence.
22 MR. LIROT: Judge, I'm going to object to
23 the depositions of anyone other than
24 Ms. Liebreich. We object to Exhibit 55, the
25 excerpts of the deposition from Ann Carlson.
72
1 THE COURT: On what grounds?
2 MR. LIROT: Judge, there has been no
3 authentication here, and I don't think we have
4 the signature page. We would object on the
5 grounds of the rule of completeness.
6 And these witnesses -- these deponents
7 haven't been there to be allowed to have any
8 cross-examination regarding their answers or
9 anything involved in these depositions.
10 MR. ROSEN: I wasn't offering them for the
11 truth, Your Honor. If you recall my questions
12 they were specifically whether this witness,
13 having read those questions and answers, agrees
14 with the statements and agrees that they were
15 true. That's the only reason they're being
16 offered, not for the truth.
17 THE COURT: I think that her responses to
18 the questions were such that the portions of
19 the depositions themselves are not necessary.
20 I will sustain the objection.
21 MR. ROSEN: Your Honor, my problem is that
22 she didn't read them out loud. If you
23 remember, I had her read them to herself.
24 So without the exhibits going in, the
25 record will not show what it is she's agreeing
73
1 to.
2 And if the only objection is authenticity,
3 do we have to call a court reporter to
4 authenticate that transcript? I will put
5 Mr. Dandar on the stand; he was there.
6 So if Counsel wants to object to
7 authenticity, I can authenticate them three
8 different ways.
9 MR. LIROT: Mr. Dandar wasn't the
10 deponent, Judge.
11 MR. ROSEN: He was present.
12 THE COURT: I know he wasn't a deponent.
13 The question is, do you really have an
14 objection to the authenticity of these
15 depositions?
16 MR. LIROT: I have an objection to not
17 being able to cross-examine the deponents in
18 these depositions to explain their answers.
19 THE COURT: Well, but their answers are
20 really not relevant. What's relevant is this
21 witness's answers, and you have an opportunity
22 to cross-examine her.
23 All right. I will go ahead and admit
24 them.
25 MR. ROSEN: Thank you, Your Honor.
74
1 CROSS-EXAMINATION
2 BY MR. LIROT:
3 Q. Good afternoon, Ms. Liebreich.
4 I would like to ask you some questions bearing
5 on some of the questions that Mr. Rosen has asked you, and
6 I will do the best I can to go through these exhibits that
7 you've been handed.
8 And I would like to start off with Exhibit
9 Number 33, the affidavit.
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Now, you testified that you signed this affidavit.
12 And Mr. Rosen asked you about Paragraph 2, that you as the
13 affiant -- and I will quote -- has never entered into a
14 binding agreement with Robert Minton nor the Lisa McPherson
15 Trust nor anyone else as to any disposition of any funds
16 obtained by the Estate of Lisa McPherson in the wrongful
17 death action pending against the Church of Scientology in
18 excess of any costs advanced by Robert Minton to defray
19 costs of litigation.
20 You were asked if that was truthful, and I
21 think your testimony was that there was nothing in writing.
22 A. Right.
23 Q. Now, have you got any formal legal training?
24 A. No, none at all.
25 Q. All right. So what is it that you understand
75
1 about necessary to reach an agreement with anybody on
2 anything?
3 A. It should be in writing, preferably notarized.
4 Q. Should it include the terms --
5 A. I would think so.
6 Q. -- that you're going to discuss?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Should those terms be specific?
9 A. I would think so.
10 Q. So an oral agreement to give somebody a bulk of
11 anything, is that specific?
12 A. A bulk of nothing, I guess, no.
13 Q. Was there ever any agreement to give any money to
14 Robert Minton from the Estate or any agreement whatsoever
15 to give money to the Lisa McPherson Trust ever --
16 A. Never.
17 Q. -- orally or otherwise?
18 A. No, I don't believe so. Not to my knowledge, no,
19 no agreement.
20 Q. Now, Mr. Rosen was concerned about whether or not
21 you knew of the loans made to Mr. Dandar by Mr. Minton.
22 MR. LIROT: And, Judge, if I may ask for a
23 continued allowance to approach the witness.
24 THE COURT: No objection.
25 BY MR. LIROT:
76
1 Q. I'm going to hand you a letter dated October 24th,
2 1997 which appears to bear your signature. Can you tell
3 the Court what that document is.
4 MR. ROSEN: Can I have a copy?
5 MR. LIROT: Yes, you can.
6 THE WITNESS: Would you like me to read
7 it?
8 MR. LIROT: Yes, please.
9 MR. ROSEN: Your Honor, I object to this.
10 This was a document that was asked for in
11 discovery repeatedly. It was asked for in a
12 notice to produce in this case.
13 Counsel has kept it in his briefcase and
14 now springs it.
15 We served a notice to produce for copies
16 of all correspondence between Mr. Dandar and
17 this witness. Nothing produced.
18 Not only two years ago, but as the notice
19 to produce for this case. A little bit late
20 for this.
21 MR. LIROT: I just got this document
22 today, Your Honor.
23 THE COURT: Well, I'm not blaming you
24 personally, but, you know, when a notice goes
25 out and evidence is to be produced, then
77
1 there's a reason for that.
2 And obviously there's a reason why there
3 are rules about whether or not you can use it
4 if you choose not to produce it or someone
5 chooses not to produce it.
6 MR. LIROT: I understand that.
7 THE COURT: You know, this isn't a game of
8 surprise here.
9 MR. LIROT: I understand that, Your Honor.
10 THE COURT: I'm going to sustain the
11 objection unless you can give me a reasonable
12 explanation as to why it wasn't produced at the
13 time it was requested.
14 MR. LIROT: Judge, I don't have any
15 personal explanation because I haven't been
16 involved in this case as long as the request to
17 produce.
18 THE COURT: Then it's presumably
19 inadmissable, then.
20 MR. LIROT: Well, I will ask her questions
21 based on that time, then.
22 BY MR. LIROT:
23 Q. Do you remember receiving a letter from Mr. Dandar
24 explaining that a gentleman by the name of Robert Minton
25 wanted to provide funds to him?
78
1 MR. ROSEN: Objection. I asked for the
2 letter. It hasn't been produced.
3 THE COURT: We're just not going to get
4 into this, either directly or indirectly.
5 That's what discovery is all about,
6 Mr. Lirot. And, you know, I'm sorry, but it's
7 just not fair to refuse to produce something in
8 discovery and then use the evidence at trial.
9 MR. LIROT: Judge, if I could speak to
10 Mr. Dandar for a second and try to come up with
11 an explanation, if you would grant me that
12 indulgence.
13 THE COURT: Okay.
14 MR. LIROT: Judge, if I may respond to the
15 Court's concerns, Mr. Dandar handed me a copy
16 of the notice to produce at hearing bearing a
17 service date of April 18th, 2002.
18 And this notice to produce served by
19 Mr. Rosen asks for copies of all transmittal
20 letters from anyone in the firm of Dandar &
21 Dandar to Dell Liebreich.
22 This is a letter from Dell Liebreich to
23 Mr. Dandar, so that would be responsive to this
24 specific request to produce.
25 THE COURT: Let me see it.
79
1 MR. LIROT: If I may, Your Honor.
2 And, again, this is the notice to produce
3 at hearing signed by Mr. Rosen with a service
4 date of April 18th, 2002. Approaching the
5 bench.
6 MR. ROSEN: Your Honor, we asked for these
7 documents in discovery. You may recall that
8 after the January deposition we asked for
9 correspondence back and forth between
10 Mrs. Liebreich --
11 THE COURT: You better show me the
12 discovery request.
13 MR. ROSEN: That's what we're looking for
14 now.
15 THE COURT: Do you want to take a short
16 break here?
17 MR. LIROT: Certainly.
18 THE COURT: All right. Let's take five
19 minutes.
20 (Thereupon, a brief recess was held.)
21 MR. ROSEN: Your Honor, we do not have all
22 of our document requests here.
23 What I propose to do is this, with respect
24 to this letter: If Mr. Dandar will stand up
25 and represent to you under oath that no
80
1 document request called for this
2 letter -- which is itself privileged on the
3 face of it -- no document request has ever been
4 served by my client in either this case or the
5 wrongful death case, I will withdraw my
6 objection on that ground pending our searching
7 tonight.
8 But I would like Mr. Dandar's
9 representation under oath that no document
10 request was ever served for this letter of
11 October 24th, 1997 from Ms. Liebreich to
12 Mr. Dandar.
13 The other thing -- and if we find
14 something, I'll let you know tomorrow, but we
15 don't have all of our files here.
16 The other thing is there was no original
17 of this letter, and I do object. This is a
18 letter supposedly sent from this witness to
19 Mr. Dandar. I would like to see the original.
20 MR. LIROT: Judge, we have the original,
21 and I will work with Mr. Rosen if he modifies
22 that to the extent that no request for
23 production was made that wasn't responded to
24 with assertion of the attorney/client
25 privilege.
81
1 MR. ROSEN: No. If you asserted the
2 privilege, you can't waive it now. So adverse
3 shield is the rhetoric.
4 THE COURT: You can't object to it on the
5 basis of, you know -- in discovery -- on the
6 basis of privilege and then try to introduce it
7 at trial.
8 MR. LIROT: The only issue now, Judge,
9 is -- it's become an issue as far as
10 notification -- of these checks.
11 And I don't think -- from what I've seen,
12 there hasn't been any request for production of
13 that pending upon what I have seen in my
14 involvement in this case.
15 I'm not trying to mince the rules here.
16 I'm trying to just basically get the
17 information out to rebut or at least have a
18 reasonable cross-examination of Ms. Liebreich.
19 THE COURT: Well, you understand that part
20 of what the Plaintiff is trying to do here is
21 to suggest that Mr. Dandar has not been
22 entirely forthcoming in many aspects of this
23 case, and they're suggesting this is just
24 another example of that.
25 Now, I can go ahead and accept it, but I
82
1 can at the same time, if the request for
2 production is produced, take into consideration
3 of that along with all of the other evidence to
4 determine whether or not Mr. Dandar has been
5 entirely forthcoming about this.
6 MR. LIROT: Well, Judge, I understand your
7 concern, but basically if there's a privilege
8 that's been asserted, then I'm under an
9 obligation to maintain that privilege and
10 withdraw the letter.
11 THE COURT: Well, what do you want to do?
12 MR. LIROT: I will withdraw the letter.
13 THE COURT: That solves that. Let's move
14 on.
15 MR. LIROT: Very good. Judge, may I
16 approach the witness?
17 THE COURT: Go ahead.
18 BY MR. LIROT:
19 Q. Ms. Liebreich, I'm going to hand you what's been
20 marked as Exhibit 9 by Mr. Rosen. And this is a letter on
21 the letterhead of Dandar & Dandar dated October 9th, 1997.
22 MR. LIROT: And, Mr. Rosen, this was your
23 Exhibit 9 from the prior hearing.
24 MR. ROSEN: Thank you, sir.
25 BY MR. LIROT:
83
1 Q. I'm going to ask you, that letter is addressed to
2 Mr. Minton. Do you ever recall receiving a copy of that
3 letter?
4 MR. ROSEN: I object, Your Honor. This is
5 covered by the notice to produce. Any
6 correspondence --
7 THE COURT: This is a piece of
8 correspondence you introduced previously,
9 right?
10 MR. ROSEN: No, no. I introduced it as a
11 letter Mr. Dandar sent to Mr. Minton. The
12 notice to produce says produce any letters sent
13 from Mr. Dandar to this witness.
14 If this letter was sent to the witness, it
15 should have been identified because she's not
16 cc'd on the letter.
17 THE COURT: I'm going to overrule that.
18 This is a copy of it. It's already been
19 introduced. Go ahead.
20 BY MR. LIROT:
21 Q. Have you seen that letter before, Ms. Liebreich?
22 A. I'm not sure. I can't remember. I might have. I
23 believe I did. I believe I have.
24 Q. Let me ask you this: Around October of 1997, did
25 you become aware that Robert Minton had an interest in
84
1 providing funds in some fashion or another?
2 A. Yes, yes, yes. I'm sure I've received this
3 letter. I feel sure I have, yes.
4 THE COURT: You have to speak up, ma'am. I
5 can't hear you.
6 THE WITNESS: I feel sure that I did
7 receive this because Ken and I had discussed
8 it.
9 BY MR. LIROT:
10 Q. Did you become aware that the condition upon which
11 any funds under any label that Mr. Minton gave to any party
12 related to this litigation or characterized as a loan was
13 on the condition that he not control the wrongful death
14 case?
15 A. Right.
16 Q. And that he would not be privy to any
17 attorney/client or otherwise privileged communications?
18 A. That's true.
19 Q. And did you agree to those conditions?
20 A. Yes, I did.
21 Q. To your knowledge, has there ever been any
22 instance where Mr. Minton tried to influence you or control
23 any of the decision-making processes in the wrongful death
24 case?
25 A. He never has, no.
85
1 Q. Now, you had your deposition taken numerous times,
2 and Mr. Rosen provided you with a number of different
3 copies of depositions, I think.
4 If you will kindly draw your attention to
5 Exhibit Number 17, which is a deposition from, I believe,
6 May 24th, 1999. This exhibit are excerpts of that
7 particular deposition.
8 A. 17?
9 Q. 17, yes.
10 A. Okay. Okay. What page did you say?
11 Q. Page 164, please.
12 A. Okay.
13 Q. All right. Mr. Rosen asked you to go through
14 Lines 12 through 21, and I believe it states, question,
15 "How did you first learn that Mr. Minton was going to, I
16 believe your words were, give money or help finance the
17 lawsuit?"
18 Your answer was, "Ken told me, I believe."
19 "When was that approximately?"
20 Your answer was, "I can't remember the dates.
21 It was probably -- it was before we went down there in
22 December of '98, but I don't remember. It could have been
23 November/October. I don't remember."
24 Does that transmittal letter to Mr. Minton
25 refresh your memory?
86
1 A. Yes. That was the year before, right. It was
2 '97.
3 Q. So is there anything untruthful in your deposition
4 testimony of May 24th, 1999?
5 A. No. I just didn't remember the dates.
6 Q. Okay. Now, if you would, draw your attention to
7 Exhibit Number 32. And I will give you a second to dig
8 that up.
9 A. Okay.
10 Q. Mr. Rosen asked you a question on Lines 10 through
11 17, I believe.
12 The question was, "You do consider the money
13 that Mr. Minton has given to be money for the benefit of
14 the Estate of Lisa McPherson."
15 And your answer was yes.
16 Now, have you got any legal training as far as
17 negotiable instruments or loan documents or anything along
18 those lines?
19 A. No, I do not.
20 Q. All right. Did you have full import of these
21 questions when asked about whether or not this was for the
22 benefit of the Estate or whether this was a loan to
23 Mr. Dandar; were any of your answers based on an analysis
24 of the legal implications of those different terms?
25 A. They were not.
87
1 Q. So, basically, was it your understanding that this
2 money was officially a loan to Mr. Dandar and nothing more?
3 A. Right.
4 Q. And is it true that you trusted Mr. Dandar to
5 dedicate these funds to use in the wrongful death case?
6 A. That's true.
7 MR. ROSEN: Your Honor, ordinarily I would
8 object to Counsel testifying, but I have great
9 faith in the Court's ability to perceive that.
10 THE COURT: Right. Thank you.
11 BY MR. LIROT:
12 Q. Is anything that you stated in your deposition on
13 that particular page untruthful?
14 A. No.
15 Q. And the same question goes for Page 252, Lines 14
16 to 17.
17 A. On which exhibit?
18 Q. Page 252 of that same exhibit, Exhibit Number 32.
19 A. Oh, here it is.
20 Q. The question that you were asked, "Is it your
21 understanding that Mr. Minton is donating the money to the
22 Estate for purposes of funding the litigation?"
23 Your answer was, "Right."
24 As you sit here today, did you intend to
25 mislead or have the intent to give any untruthful answer to
88
1 that question?
2 A. No, I did not.
3 Q. All right. Now, Mr. Rosen makes it seem that
4 you're giving two different answers here. Can you explain
5 that?
6 MR. ROSEN: Argumentative.
7 THE COURT: Overruled.
8 THE WITNESS: It's the same to me,
9 everything that I've said, that the money was
10 given by Mr. Minton to Ken Dandar as a loan to
11 do with as he saw fit. And that's the way I
12 feel about it. But I might not have stated it
13 that way every time.
14 BY MR. LIROT:
15 Q. Well, was that because you believed that to be
16 different or is that the basis of some confusion you may
17 have had?
18 A. Well, he keeps turning things around, but, I mean,
19 it's all the same. I haven't changed my thoughts.
20 Q. Has your understanding of the money from
21 Mr. Minton never actually changed from what you assumed to
22 be the loan to Mr. Dandar? Has that ever changed
23 throughout this litigation?
24 A. No, it hasn't.
25 Q. And if you gave an answer that would appear to be
89
1 contrary to that, how do you explain that?
2 A. I don't think I have given one contrary to it. I
3 didn't mean to.
4 Q. So, basically, you felt that your answers were
5 truthful?
6 A. Yes, I did.
7 Q. And you had no intent to mislead anybody or hide
8 any facts from the Court or from any other person asking
9 any questions of you?
10 A. Never, no.
11 Q. Based on that, is there anything in Exhibit Number
12 32 that you don't believe to be a truthful response to the
13 questions that were posed to you that day, May 24, 1999?
14 A. That's true.
15 Q. Now, you had your deposition taken recently on
16 April 20th of 2002; is that correct?
17 A. Right.
18 Q. And Mr. Rosen focused on Exhibit 61 as it relates
19 to that date.
20 A. Okay.
21 Q. Mr. Rosen first drew your attention, I believe, or
22 at some point during his questioning asked you to look at
23 Page 311 about asking for an accounting. And I believe
24 it's on Line 7.
25 And the question is, "When did you last receive
90
1 an accounting of the funds that had come in for the use of
2 the Estate?"
3 Now, my prior question to you is, did you
4 intend to give an answer that was anything less than
5 truthful about the designation of the particular funds that
6 were given to Mr. Dandar --
7 A. I did not.
8 Q. -- by Mr. Minton?
9 A. No.
10 Q. Or any other party?
11 A. No.
12 Q. Have you ever asked Mr. Dandar for an accounting?
13 A. No, I have not.
14 Q. Have you ever felt the need to ask Mr. Dandar for
15 an accounting?
16 A. No, I haven't.
17 Q. Has he ever done anything to give you any reason
18 to believe that he's been less than honest and honorable in
19 the way that he's used whatever monies were given to him
20 from any source related to the wrongful death litigation?
21 A. Never.
22 Q. I draw your attention to the question and answer
23 on Page 344 that Mr. Rosen focused on. And same question
24 is, "All right. How many times did you consent to
25 Mr. Minton providing money for the Estate?"
91
1 A. I'm sorry. What page?
2 Q. Page 344.
3 A. Oh, okay.
4 Q. On Line 6 it says, "All right. How many times did
5 you consent to Mr. Minton providing money for the Estate?"
6 And your answer was, "Anytime he wanted to. I
7 don't know how many times. Anytime he wanted to."
8 A. That's true.
9 Q. Was there anything that was intended to mislead
10 anybody asking that question about whether this money was
11 anything other than a loan from Mr. Dandar?
12 A. No.
13 Q. All right. On Page 345, the next page, Mr. Rosen
14 drew your attention to Line 3 where the question was, "What
15 did you think you were consenting to?"
16 And your answer was, "Receiving some money from
17 Mr. Minton."
18 Was there anything in that answer that was
19 inconsistent with your belief that these monies were loans
20 to Mr. Dandar for his use?
21 A. No, not at all.
22 Q. And you trusted him to use these in the wrongful
23 death case.
24 A. That's right.
25 Q. On Page 347, Mr. Rosen drew your attention to Line
92
1 4. And I believe the question is, "Now you heard yesterday
2 about a $500,000 check that Mr. Dandar received in May of
3 2000. Do you remember that?"
4 Your answer was, "The $500,000, yes."
5 Question, "Yeah. Did you know about the
6 $500,000 --"
7 Your answer was, "Yes."
8 "-- check when it came in?"
9 Answer, "Yes."
10 Question, "How did you know about that?"
11 "He said he didn't know who it was from."
12 Question, "But that was for the funding of the
13 Estate too, right?"
14 Your answer was right.
15 Again, is there anything in your response to
16 that answer that in any way deviates from your assumption
17 that the monies coming from Mr. Minton or any source were
18 loans to Mr. Dandar for his use in the wrongful death case?
19 A. No, sir.
20 Q. Now, this check for $500,000 --
21 MR. LIROT: Again, I believe, Judge, we've
22 gotten into this. I don't want to have this construed as
23 any waiver of privilege other than for this limited
24 situation here.
25 BY MR. LIROT:
93
1 Q. Did you become aware that Mr. Dandar had received
2 a check for $500,000 in, I believe it was, May of 2000?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. And was any information given to you that that
5 check came from Robert Minton out of any of his funds?
6 A. I believe Ken said he didn't know who it came
7 from; Mr. Minton gave it to him, but he didn't know who it
8 came from, if I'm not mistaken.
9 Q. Okay. In your experience with the wrongful death
10 case, have there been other instances where monies were
11 donated by anonymous sources? Are you aware of any of
12 those instances?
13 A. To the Estate?
14 Q. To either the Estate or Mr. Dandar or anybody.
15 Are you aware of any anonymous funds coming in
16 for use in the wrongful death case?
17 A. Not really. I read on the internet where there
18 was some $600,000 that went to the Trust that was
19 anonymous, but I don't know anything about it.
20 Q. So besides this $500,000 check, it's not uncommon
21 for there to have been anonymous funds in some way involved
22 in these actions?
23 MR. ROSEN: Objection, Your Honor.
24 THE COURT: Sustained.
25 BY MR. LIROT:
94
1 Q. On Page 348 Mr. Rosen drew your attention to Line
2 1. Again, the question was, "So you knew that money came
3 in for the litigation of this case and the Estate?"
4 The answer was right.
5 As we sit here today, is there anything that
6 you meant to be untruthful or not respond to what you
7 understood and assumed to be loans to Mr. Dandar in
8 response to that question?
9 A. Not at all, no.
10 Q. Now, Mr. Rosen also focused on Page 354 where he
11 asked you about a videotape apparently thanking Mr. Minton.
12 Do you recall ever thanking Mr. Minton for monies donated
13 to the Estate?
14 A. I have thanked him many times, every time I would
15 see him or have any contact with him for giving money, but
16 I don't remember how I stated it, whether it was the Estate
17 or Ken or to us or whatever. I cannot remember.
18 Q. Would any gratitude that you showed Mr. Minton
19 either on tape or off tape either change your belief that
20 the monies coming from Mr. Minton were donations or loans
21 to Mr. Dandar for use in this case?
22 A. Any different? No, the same.
23 Q. Now, on Page 439 of this deposition excerpt in
24 Exhibit 61, I believe you've explained this, but I want to
25 expand on Line 19, there's a question, "Okay. It's your
95
1 testimony that you knew about the $500,000 that Mr. Dandar
2 had gotten from Mr. Minton in May of 2000, correct?"
3 And your answer was right.
4 Did that answer mean to indicate that you knew
5 that the money came from Mr. Minton or that Mr. Minton had
6 delivered the check to Mr. Dandar?
7 A. That Mr. Minton had delivered the check to him.
8 Q. Is there anything in this answer that deviates
9 from your understanding that that $500,000 came from a
10 source other than Mr. Minton?
11 A. Not in this statement it isn't, no.
12 Q. Do you believe anything, in this deposition or any
13 time, that that $500,000 had come from Mr. Minton, from one
14 of his personal accounts?
15 A. Well, it didn't come from a personal account. It
16 came from another different from what he had been giving.
17 Q. On Page 463, Mr. Rosen asked you and on Line 5 it
18 says, "It is your understanding the money that Robert
19 Minton gave to Dandar & Dandar, P.A. or to Ken Dandar, your
20 attorney, is a loan to Ken Dandar or the P.A."
21 And your answer was yes.
22 And the question was, "Did he give any money
23 over to the Estate?"
24 I'm sorry. I misspoke.
25 "Did he give any money ever to the Estate?"
96
1 And your answer was no.
2 Is that your actual understanding of all of
3 these questions, basically, that have asked you about these
4 monies?
5 A. That's what I've said. That's the way I felt,
6 that it was all given to Ken all along.
7 Q. Now on Page 469 you were asked a question on Line
8 19, and the question was, "You became aware, through a
9 conversation with Mr. Dandar, that he had received $250,000
10 in March of 2002?"
11 Is that correct?
12 A. That's correct.
13 Q. And your answer was yes.
14 Now, in March of 2002, was it your
15 understanding that Mr. Minton had indicated prior to that
16 time that he was no longer going to provide any funds
17 whatsoever to Mr. Dandar or anybody else for use in
18 connection with the wrongful death case?
19 A. Right.
20 Q. And you're aware of that?
21 A. Right.
22 Q. So do you have any reason to believe that this
23 money came from Mr. Minton?
24 A. No.
25 Q. Is there anything in what we've gone over from
97
1 your deposition -- I know you haven't had a chance to read
2 it -- but in Exhibit 61, is there anything in here that was
3 an intentional attempt on your part to be anything less
4 than truthful and honest in the questions posed to you?
5 A. No, but I have not gone over all of it.
6 Q. Now, at some point you signed a retainer agreement
7 with Mr. Dandar's office. Is that correct?
8 A. That's correct.
9 Q. I believe Mr. Rosen at the last hearing --
10 MR. LIROT: May I approach, Judge?
11 THE COURT: Sure.
12 BY MR. LIROT:
13 Q. Ms. Liebreich, I'm going to show you what's been
14 marked as Exhibit 52. This is the retainer agreement that
15 Mr. Rosen had talked to Mr. Dandar about.
16 I'm going to ask you if you recognize that
17 particular document.
18 A. Yes, I do.
19 Q. And what do you understand that document to be, in
20 simple terms?
21 A. Well, it's a -- it's a retainer agreement, but
22 it's just a formal opinion...
23 Q. Do you recall at your deposition questions being
24 posed to you about who is responsible for the costs in the
25 wrongful death suit?
98
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. And do you recall that that document makes it
3 appear that you're responsible for those costs?
4 A. That's what it says here, but I'm not.
5 Q. Did you subsequently come to another agreement
6 with Mr. Dandar relative to the costs in the wrongful death
7 suit?
8 A. That's right.
9 Q. And what do you understand that agreement to be?
10 MR. ROSEN: Objection, no foundation, best
11 evidence. We're now going to orally undermine
12 or contradict the terms of a written retainer
13 agreement.
14 THE COURT: Sustained.
15 MR. LIROT: Judge, if I can approach the
16 witness.
17 BY MR. LIROT:
18 Q. I'm going to hand you a letter on Dandar & Dandar
19 letterhead dated February 10th, 1997 and ask you if you
20 recognize that letter.
21 A. Yes, I do.
22 Q. Does that letter basically shift the
23 responsibility for costs on the wrongful death case to
24 Mr. Dandar?
25 MR. ROSEN: Objection.
99
1 THE WITNESS: Yes, it does.
2 THE COURT: I cautioned Mr. Rosen about
3 that; I'm going to caution you about that.
4 When you hear an objection, just shut up, okay?
5 What is it, Mr. Rosen?
6 MR. ROSEN: This document was not produced
7 in discovery. It was covered in the notice to
8 produce, copies of all transmittal letters,
9 copies of correspondence, number one.
10 Number two, if Counsel is asking this
11 witness to give a legal opinion as to whether
12 this letter somehow supersedes or replaces the
13 -written retainer agreement, that's an improper
14 question. That is a pure issue of law.
15 And if Counsel will refrain from asking
16 that question, I don't have any objection to
17 this letter going in, despite that it was not
18 given to us in discovery or notice to produce.
19 Can we have it marked as a defendant's
20 exhibit?
21 THE COURT: Sure.
22 MR. LIROT: I believe that would be number
23 2, Your Honor.
24 THE COURT: Okay. Have you got a copy or
25 do you have the original or what do you want to
100
1 do?
2 MR. LIROT: If I may approach, Judge. I
3 have a copy of the February 10th, 1997 letter
4 from Dandar & Dandar to Ann Carlson and Dell
5 Liebreich.
6 BY MR. LIROT:
7 Q. Ms. Liebreich, has Mr. Dandar ever asked you or
8 instructed you to lie at any deposition or any court
9 proceeding or in any way told you to say anything that
10 wasn't true, ever?
11 A. Never, ever.
12 Q. Have you ever intentionally lied or said anything
13 at any deposition or any court proceeding that you didn't
14 feel was the absolute truth?
15 A. That is true. I have not.
16 Q. Have you ever had any indication from any source
17 that Mr. Dandar in any way was being less than honorable in
18 his use of funds that he obtained from Mr. Minton or any
19 other source in dispatching his responsibilities in the
20 wrongful death case?
21 A. No.
22 MR. LIROT: I have no further questions.
23 MR. ROSEN: Just a couple, Your Honor.
24 BY MR. ROSEN:
25 Q. Ms. Liebreich, I've put in front of you what's
101
1 been marked as Exhibit 33A.
2 This is a deposition of yours -- another
3 portion of your deposition of ten days ago.
4 And I direct your attention to Page 378.
5 At that point you were being questioned about
6 Exhibit 33, the very affidavit we went over a few moments
7 ago.
8 And you were asked, "Who wrote this affidavit?"
9 Answer, "I asked Ken to write it, I'm sure."
10 Do you see that?
11 A. We discussed it, yes.
12 Q. Okay. Now, open Exhibit 33. I just want to make
13 sure you have your affidavit in mind. This is the one that
14 says there's no binding agreement.
15 Why did you ask Ken to write it? For what
16 purpose?
17 A. Well, if I remember correctly, we had discussed
18 that Scientology was badgering everybody about this, and so
19 he says, well, I'm going to write a letter, and I said
20 that's great.
21 MR. LIROT: Judge, I would object. This is all
22 privileged.
23 THE COURT: I think she waived the
24 privilege when she testified about it in this
25 deposition.
102
1 MR. LIROT: Judge, if I can look at the
2 deposition, I think Judge Beach might have
3 imposed some limitation on her response.
4 MR. ROSEN: Do you have a copy of it,
5 Counsel? I'm sorry. Do you not have a copy,
6 Counsel? I will get you a copy, Exhibit 33A.
7 MR. LIROT: 33A? I don't have a 33A.
8 MR. ROSEN: I'm sorry. I will get you a
9 copy. You can have my copy.
10 MR. LIROT: Judge, I would renew my
11 objection based on the language. I think the
12 question as posed -- and I hate to make a
13 speaking objection, but I can't do it any other
14 way than this:
15 Question, "So you say in this affidavit
16 you didn't enter into a binding agreement with
17 Robert Minton nor the Lisa McPherson Trust nor
18 anyone else as to any disposition of any funds
19 obtained by the Estate of Lisa McPherson in the
20 wrongful death action pending against the
21 Church of Scientology in excess of any costs
22 advanced by Mr. Minton to defray costs in the
23 litigation, right?"
24 Answer, "Right."
25 That's the extent. All she's doing is
103
1 testifying as to what the affidavit says.
2 THE COURT: That's all well and good, but
3 the question before that is who wrote this
4 affidavit, and the answer was, "I asked Ken to
5 write it, I'm sure."
6 So in terms of that particular event, it
7 seems to me she's waived any privilege
8 BY MR. ROSEN:
9 Q. Back to my question.
10 A. What was your question?
11 Q. Okay. I will repeat it. Why did you ask Ken to
12 write that affidavit, Exhibit 33?
13 A. We discussed that they were being harassed so
14 much, Bob and everybody, about them having -- running the
15 lawsuit and everything, so that was the reason.
16 Q. And so when you discussed it, the conclusion that
17 you reached was if we file an affidavit in court that says
18 there's, quote, no binding agreement, then that would stop
19 discovery?
20 MR. LIROT: Objection.
21 THE WITNESS: I don't know what you're
22 talking about.
23 MR. LIROT: Calls for a legal conclusion.
24 And that is privileged.
25 BY MR. ROSEN:
104
1 Q. Did you understand that this affidavit was to be
2 filed in court in support of a motion to stop discovery
3 into this agreement between you and Minton? Do you
4 understand that was the purpose of this?
5 MR. LIROT: Objection, privileged.
6 THE COURT: Sustained.
7 BY MR. ROSEN:
8 Q. When you discussed this with Mr. Dandar, is he the
9 one who drafted the language of this affidavit or did you?
10 A. I don't know.
11 Q. You don't know? Okay.
12 Now, when we go to Exhibit 33, the affidavit,
13 that's the one where you say there's no binding agreement.
14 And you've explained to us that what you meant was the
15 agreement was verbal; it wasn't in writing. Do you recall
16 that testimony about 15 minutes ago?
17 A. Yes, I do.
18 Q. Okay. Let me read to you from Page 461 of your
19 deposition of ten days ago.
20 Question --
21 A. What exhibit is that?
22 Q. It's not an exhibit, ma'am. It's going to be.
23 I'm reading from Page 461 of your deposition of
24 ten days ago, April 20th, 2002, taken before Judge Beach
25 starting at Line 6.
105
1 Question, "Did you ever have any oral or
2 written agreement with Robert Minton that the bulk of any
3 money from the death of Lisa McPherson would be paid to him
4 or his corporation, the Lisa McPherson Trust?"
5 Answer, "No way."
6 Was that answer true?
7 A. We've never had any agreement, other than orally.
8 Q. Ma'am, try it one more time.
9 Did you ever have any oral or written
10 agreement? Do you understand the word oral is a synonym
11 for verbal?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Is it true that you never had any oral agreement
14 with Mr. Minton about the disposition of the proceeds? Is
15 that right?
16 A. Not an agreement. We've never had an agreement.
17 We just discussed what we might like to do. We never
18 really had any agreement.
19 MR. ROSEN: Your Honor, the transcript -- the
20 excerpts of the transcript of the deposition of August
21 20th, 2002 are already before you as Exhibit 61. I would
22 ask that Page 461 of that, which I will hand up, be made
23 part of Exhibit 61.
24 THE COURT: Okay.
25 THE WITNESS: I don't have a 461.
106
1 BY MR. ROSEN:
2 Q. Okay. Let's turn to your statement in response to
3 your Counsel's question -- your counsel asked you, Have you
4 ever asked Mr. Dandar for an accounting?
5 And you said no. Do you remember that?
6 A. I don't have to.
7 Q. Okay. So let me try another question. Do you
8 remember saying in response to your Counsel's question that
9 you've never asked Mr. Dandar for an accounting? Yes or
10 no?
11 A. Do I remember that? Yes.
12 Q. Now, ma'am, we have -- I don't think it's in
13 dispute that a total of $2,050,000 has passed to
14 Mr. Dandar.
15 Do you have any idea if -- have you ever asked
16 your Counsel or has he said anything on the subject of how
17 much of that money has been spent for expenses in the
18 wrongful death case?
19 MR. LIROT: Asked and answered.
20 THE COURT: Overruled.
21 MR. LIROT: I think it's also privileged,
22 Judge.
23 MR. ROSEN: Not anymore.
24 MR. LIROT: This deals with the Second
25 District Court of Appeals orders well.
107
1 THE COURT: Explain that to me.
2 MR. LIROT: Well, Judge, this is talking
3 about the amount of monies spent on certain
4 issues involved in this case, and I think that
5 the total sum is still at issue, so I don't
6 think that they should be able to delve into
7 this area.
8 Clearly, the Second District Court of
9 Appeals ruling, as I understand it, the motion
10 for rehearing on rehearing was denied just the
11 other day for the two orders that we referred
12 to at the last hearing.
13 MR. ROSEN: We went over this last time.
14 The orders denied the discovery on the grounds
15 that the information was not relevant in the
16 wrongful death case. There is no privilege,
17 number one.
18 And number two, Counsel just opened the
19 door by asking -- if I didn't have grounds
20 before, I had it when Counsel asked the witness
21 if she ever asked Mr. Dandar for an accounting.
22 THE COURT: Yeah. I will overrule the
23 objection.
24 MR. ROSEN: Can you answer my question?
25 THE WITNESS: What's the question again?
108
1 MR. ROSEN: May I ask the court reporter
2 to read back?
3 THE COURT REPORTER: Question, "Now,
4 ma'am, I don't think it's in dispute that a
5 total of $2,050,000 has passed to Mr. Dandar.
6 "Do you have any idea, have you ever asked
7 your Counsel or has he said anything on the
8 subject of how much of that money has been
9 spent for expenses in the wrongful death case?"
10 THE WITNESS: Have I ever asked him? No.
11 BY MR. ROSEN:
12 Q. Did he ever say anything to indicate how much?
13 A. He tells me when he's running low.
14 Q. I can't hear you.
15 A. Yes, we have discussed it.
16 Q. He's told you the amounts that have been spent?
17 A. Not the exact amounts, I'm sure.
18 Q. Approximate amounts. Approximate amounts.
19 A. If I ask him, yes.
20 Q. And have you asked him?
21 A. I have, at different times.
22 Q. In fact, he told you at one point in September
23 of -- around September of 2001 that he was running out of
24 money; didn't he?
25 A. He probably did.
109
1 MR. LIROT: That's a privilege, objection.
2 THE COURT: Overruled.
3 MR. ROSEN: I'll withdraw the question
4 anyways.
5 BY MR. ROSEN:
6 Q. Exhibit 58.
7 A. You want me to look at Exhibit 58?
8 Q. Could you, please? It's before you in the folder.
9 A. That's not it. That's 61. I don't see a 58. I
10 have 57.
11 Q. Okay. I will give you my copy.
12 Okay. That's a posting you made to the
13 internet, right?
14 A. Yes, that's true.
15 Q. What's the date of it?
16 A. It looks like September 6, 2001.
17 Q. And it's a request for money; isn't it?
18 A. Right.
19 Q. And the reason that you were requesting money
20 donations at that time to the Estate was because Mr. Dandar
21 had told you he was running out of money.
22 A. Right.
23 Q. Now, after Mr. Dandar, as you say, told you a few
24 months later in March of 2002 that he had received
25 $250,000, you say he told you that, did he ever post
110
1 anything saying, oops, we don't need contributions; we just
2 got 250 grand, or words to that effect?
3 MR. LIROT: Objection, privileged.
4 MR. ROSEN: I'm sorry?
5 THE COURT: There's a privileged
6 objection.
7 MR. ROSEN: Privilege as to what she
8 posted on the internet?
9 MR. LIROT: It was my understanding about
10 Mr. Dandar's communications to her subsequent
11 to something that happened.
12 MR. ROSEN: She already answered that. I
13 believe my pending question is did she ever
14 post anything further to the internet saying we
15 got $250,000 --
16 THE COURT: If that was your question,
17 that's not privileged.
18 BY MR. ROSEN:
19 Q. Answer my question, please.
20 A. No.
21 Q. Okay. Let's turn, finally, to Defendant's Exhibit
22 2, the February 10th, 1997 letter from Mr. --
23 A. What number?
24 THE COURT: 2.
25 MR. ROSEN: Defendant's Exhibit 2.
111
1 THE WITNESS: I don't remember seeing a 2.
2 MR. ROSEN: All right. Here's another
3 copy.
4 BY MR. ROSEN:
5 Q. This is a February 10th, 1997 letter from
6 Mr. Dandar to you and your sister, right?
7 A. Right.
8 Q. And this letter answers some questions you had
9 about the retainer agreement, right?
10 A. Right.
11 Q. It doesn't change your retainer agreement, does
12 it? It doesn't say the retainer agreement is cancelled;
13 does it?
14 A. I would say it speaks for itself.
15 Q. Okay. Now, I want to focus you in on one part of
16 this, Paragraph 1. Mr. Dandar is explaining how proceeds
17 are divided. The attorney's fee is paid out of the gross
18 amount recovered -- it says from the Estate, but I assume
19 that means for the Estate.
20 So follow me, now, Ms. Liebreich.
21 If the recovery in the wrongful death case is,
22 let's say, 5 million. Then the 40 percent attorney's fees
23 comes off the top. That's what that says, right? You
24 understood it that way, right?
25 A. Yes.
112
1 Q. So we have a 5-million-dollar recovery.
2 Mr. Dandar gets 40 percent at 2 million dollars off the
3 top, right? Correct?
4 A. Whatever Mr. Dandar says.
5 Q. And continuing on, of the remaining 3 million,
6 then, the Estate pays the costs of the case. The Estate
7 pays the costs out of its 3 million dollars in my
8 hypothetical, right?
9 A. Right.
10 Q. So let's see if I get this right, now. Mr. Dandar
11 gets his personal loan for 2 million dollars from
12 Mr. Minton, spends some money on expenses for the Estate,
13 buys himself a million-dollar house. He doesn't pay
14 Mr. Minton back a nickel. Every cent that he borrowed, you
15 pay back, the Estate, right?
16 A. No.
17 Q. You pay the costs.
18 A. No.
19 Q. Okay. Any further letters, while we're on the
20 subject since this was just produced to us today -- are
21 there any other letters, Ms. Liebreich, after February
22 10th, 1997 which change the retainer agreement that you
23 signed, explain it, amend it, anything like that? Or is
24 this a --
25 A. Mr. Dandar pays his bills.
113
1 Q. Answer my question, please, ma'am. Are there any
2 other letters after February 10th, 1997, any other letters,
3 any other writings, which either explain the retainer
4 agreement or change it or supercede it or amend it?
5 Anything like that?
6 A. I don't remember any.
7 Q. Okay. So this is the last statement of Mr. Dandar
8 to you explaining his retainer agreement, right?
9 A. If there was anything, I don't remember seeing it.
10 If you will show me something, I will --
11 Q. No, no. I don't have it, ma'am. I'm not trying
12 to fool you. This is the last statement Mr. Dandar ever
13 made to you explaining the retainer agreement and how it
14 works, right? Yes or no.
15 A. Mr. Dandar pays the costs --
16 Q. Ma'am, can you listen to my question? Is this the
17 last communication -- this letter -- is it the last
18 communication from Mr. Dandar to you explaining how the
19 retainer agreement works? Yes or no.
20 A. I said I may have another letter. I don't
21 remember.
22 Q. Let me see if I can take a wild guess. If you
23 have that other letter, is it in your purse or is it in
24 Texas? Where is it, ma'am?
25 A. I don't know where it is.
114
1 Q. You're sure it's not in your purse?
2 A. I'm positive it's not in my purse.
3 MR. ROSEN: Okay. Nothing else.
4 RECROSS-EXAMINATION
5 BY MR. LIROT:
6 Q. Briefly cross, Judge.
7 Mr. Rosen showed you the statements he made in
8 your deposition of April 20th, 2002 and drew your attention
9 to Line 6 and said, "Did you ever have any oral or written
10 agreement with Robert Minton that the bulk of any money
11 from the death of Lisa McPherson would be paid to him or
12 his corporation, the Lisa McPherson Trust?"
13 And your answer was, "No way."
14 Was there ever any agreement to pay Mr. Minton
15 anything?
16 A. Not to my knowledge.
17 Q. Was the best that you came up with some general
18 agreement that it would be nice to give the bulk of some
19 money, if it was ever realized, to an anti-cult
20 organization?
21 A. Right.
22 Q. Was that ever decided to be Mr. Minton or anything
23 to do with Mr. Minton?
24 A. No.
25 Q. All right. Now, this last letter that Mr. Rosen
115
1 looked at, does this letter allow Mr. Dandar to hire any
2 attorneys he thinks are appropriate to assist him on this
3 case?
4 A. Yes.
5 MR. LIROT: Okay. Thank you, Ms. Liebreich.
6 MR. ROSEN: Your Honor, I move for the
7 introduction of Exhibit 58 and Defendant's
8 Exhibit 2 and the additional page of Exhibit 61
9 that I handed up.
10 THE COURT: All right. They'll be
11 received. Anything else to inquire of this
12 witness?
13 MR. ROSEN: No.
14 MR. LIROT: Not from us, Judge.
15 THE COURT: Okay. Let's take five
16 minutes.
17 (Thereupon, a brief recess was held and
18 this transcript continues to Volume II.)
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
116
1 CERTIFICATE OF REPORTER
2
3
4 STATE OF FLORIDA )
5 )
6 COUNTY OF PINELLAS )
7 I, Susan M. Valsecchi, Registered Professional
8 Reporter, in and for the Sixth Judicial Circuit, State of
9 Florida:
10 DO HEREBY CERTIFY that I was authorized to and
11 did stenographically report the foregoing proceedings and
12 that the transcript is a true and complete record of my
13 stenographic notes.
14 DATED this day of , 2002, at
15 Clearwater, Pinellas County, Florida.
16
17
18
19 Susan M. Valsecchi, RPR
20 Registered Professional Reporter
117
IN THE CIRCUIT COURT FOR PINELLAS COUNTY, FLORIDA
CHURCH OF SCIENTOLOGY FLAG
SERVICE ORGANIZATION, INC.,
Plaintiff
vs. CASE NO. 00-002750-CI-20
DELL LIEBREICH, individually and
as Personal Representative of
the Estate of Lisa McPherson,
ROBERT MINTON and THE LISA MCPHERSON
TRUST,
Defendants.
/
BEFORE: The Honorable W. Douglas Baird
Circuit Judge
PLACE: 315 Court Street
Clearwater, Florida
DATE: April 30, 2002
TIME: 11:30 a.m. - 5:40 p.m.
REPORTED BY: Susan M. Valsecchi, RPR
Registered Professional Court Reporter
Sixth Judicial Circuit
-----------------------------------------
HEARING
(VOLUME II OF APRIL 30, 2002 HEARING)
-----------------------------------------
Pages 117 - 211 (Excluding Index.)
ROBERT A. DEMPSTER & ASSOCIATES
(727) 443-0992
118
1 APPEARANCES
2
3
4
5 F. WALLACE POPE, JR., ESQUIRE
6 SAMUEL D. ROSEN, ESQUIRE
7 JOHNSON, BLAKELY, POPE, BOKOR, RUPPEL & BURNS
8 Post Office Box 1368
9 Clearwater, Florida 33757
10 (727) 461-1818
11
12 Attorneys for Plaintiff
13
14
15
16 LUKE LIROT, ESQUIRE
17 LUKE CHARLES LIROT, P.A.
18 112 East Street, Suite B
19 Tampa, Florida 33602
20
21 Attorney for the Defendants
22
23
24
25
119
1 (Thereupon, this hearing continues directly
2 from Volume I.)
3
4 THE COURT: Call your next witness,
5 please.
6 MR. ROSEN: Your Honor, pursuant to the
7 bench conference earlier, we call Mr. Dandar.
8 THE BAILIFF: Face the Judge, raise your
9 right hand, be sworn in.
10 (Thereupon, the oath was administered to
11 the witness.)
12 MR. ROSEN: Your Honor, in a word of
13 explan |