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352
1
2 IN THE CIRCUIT COURT FOR PINELLAS COUNTY, FLORIDA
3 CASE NO. 00-5682-CI-11
4
DELL LIEBREICH, as Personal
5 Representative of the ESTATE OF
LISA McPHERSON,
6
7 Plaintiff,
8 vs. VOLUME 4
9 CHURCH OF SCIENTOLOGY FLAG
SERVICE ORGANIZATION, JANIS
10 JOHNSON, ALAIN KARTUZINSKI
and DAVID HOUGHTON, D.D.S.,
11
Defendants.
12
_______________________________________/
13
14 PROCEEDINGS: Defendants' Ominbus Motion for
Terminating Sanctions and Other Relief.
15
DATE: June 5, 2002, morning session.
16
PLACE: Courtroom B, Judicial Buiding
17 St. Petersburg, Florida.
18 BEFORE: Hon. Susan F. Schaeffer,
Circuit Judge.
19
REPORTED BY: Donna M. Kanabay RMR, CRR,
20 Notary Public,
State of Florida at large.
21
22
23
24
25
353
1 APPEARANCES:
2 MR. KENNAN G. DANDAR
DANDAR & DANDAR
3 5340 West Kennedy Blvd., Suite 201
Tampa, FL 33602
4 Attorney for Plaintiff.
5 MR. LUKE CHARLES LIROT
LUKE CHARLES LIROT, PA
6 112 N East Street, Street, Suite B
Tampa, FL 33602-4108
7 Attorney for Plaintiff.
8 MR. KENDRICK MOXON
MOXON & KOBRIN
9 1100 Cleveland Street, Suite 900
Clearwater, FL 33755
10 Attorney for Church of Scientology Flag Service
Organization.
11
MR. LEE FUGATE and
12 MR. MORRIS WEINBERG, JR. and
ZUCKERMAN, SPAEDER
13 101 E. Kennedy Blvd, Suite 1200
Tampa, FL 33602-5147
14 Attorneys for Church of Scientology Flag Service
Organization.
15
MR. ERIC M. LIEBERMAN
16 RABINOWITZ, BOUDIN, STANDARD
740 Broadway at Astor Place
17 New York, NY 10003-9518
Attorney for Church of Scientology Flag Service
18 Organization.
19
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25
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1 INDEX TO PROCEEDINGS AND EXHIBITS
2 PAGE LINE
3 Recess 437 25
Recess 508 18
4 Reporter's Certificate 509 1
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1 THE COURT: Good morning.
2 We've got a couple legal matters. We want to
3 take those up first?
4 MR. DANDAR: Yes.
5 THE COURT: All right.
6 MR. DANDAR: The plaintiff --
7 THE COURT: Where is --
8 MR. WEINBERG: He's sick.
9 THE COURT: What -- why can't I think of his
10 name?
11 MR. WEINBERG: Mr. Lieberman.
12 THE COURT: Mr. Lieberman.
13 MR. WEINBERG: He actually was sick
14 yesterday --
15 THE COURT: Oh, I'm sorry --
16 MR. WEINBERG: -- and he's sick today.
17 THE COURT: All right. Well, tell him I hope
18 he feels better.
19 I have three motions by the plaintiff, request
20 to produce -- two requests to produce.
21 I guess I should ask the defense if there's any
22 objection.
23 MR. FUGATE: Which --
24 THE COURT: We'll take the first one up, is --
25 it looks like they're requesting that these be
356
1 produced at this hearing, which is why I'm taking
2 them up. We'll take up the one -- the first one is
3 one that requests the videos, including any
4 videos --
5 I can't really quite figure out the relevance
6 of this to this hearing, but --
7 MR. DANDAR: Well, they mixed summary judgment
8 motions with this hearing. And they've produced
9 videos of the Lisa McPherson Trust under
10 surveillance. And they had video cameras on the
11 back sidewalk of the hotel where Lisa McPherson,
12 they say, was kept. And this court --
13 And I think we're entitled to see the security
14 videos --
15 THE COURT: I'm not saying that you're not. I
16 just am not certain that they're relevant to this
17 hearing. But rather than debate that let's see if
18 there's an objection.
19 MR. MOXON: Your Honor, there aren't any.
20 THE COURT: Pardon me?
21 MR. MOXON: The system that recorded the
22 security videos didn't go in until, I'm informed,
23 about 1998 or thereabouts. So the only video that
24 had a recording on it in the church at that time was
25 at the front door, and there's obviously nothing
357
1 there. So --
2 THE COURT: So there is none. So I guess
3 that's the answer --
4 MR. DANDAR: All right.
5 THE COURT: -- okay? So we kind of dealt with
6 that.
7 The next one is -- and as a matter of fact, if
8 you want me to sign an order that they responded
9 there weren't any --
10 MR. DANDAR: No. The transcript's enough.
11 THE COURT: -- I'll sign an order.
12 Okay. The next request to produce, three
13 things: Committee of evidence reports of certain
14 people, knowledge reports regarding Lisa McPherson
15 and routing slips.
16 MR. FUGATE: Judge, I have a written response.
17 It's actually due the 6th, according to the
18 pleading, but I'll file one with the clerk.
19 I went back and checked. I didn't say anything
20 yesterday because, like I said, I'm always going to
21 preface things with "I think," and I thought that we
22 had responded to these early on and in the written
23 response that the -- this was requested sometime
24 ago, it was responded to, and there are none.
25 And the ones that respond to number 3 were
358
1 turned over to Mr. Dandar, I believe -- I don't have
2 my copy now in front of me -- in 1998 or 1999.
3 THE COURT: Okay.
4 MR. FUGATE: Those are all the ones that were
5 in existence, and they were turned over then.
6 THE COURT: And if they aren't, you've
7 responded before that there aren't, and you're
8 responding again.
9 MR. FUGATE: To 1 and 2, there are no
10 documents.
11 I have also sent the notice to the lawyers or
12 caused to be sent the notice to the lawyers for the
13 other people.
14 But as -- on behalf of the defendant Flag,
15 there are no documents as to 1 and 2. That's been
16 responded to before.
17 As to 3, that was responded to. There were
18 documents, they were produced and -- they were
19 produced. And Mr. Shaw also verified that in a
20 hearing before Judge Moody in 2000.
21 THE COURT: Okay.
22 MR. DANDAR: And I'd like to be on the record.
23 Brian Anderson -- since this response of 1998
24 for number 1, Brian Anderson's deposition was taken.
25 Brian Anderson said he was subjected to a committee
359
1 of evidence. If they're saying Flag doesn't have
2 the committee of evidence reports and someone else
3 does within the Scientology conglomerate, then I'd
4 like them to tell me that, because I don't want any
5 word games. "Flag no longer has it. Someone else
6 does."
7 MR. FUGATE: Well, Judge, A, I resent that. B,
8 the depositions of each of these people were taken
9 and the questions were asked.
10 Mr. Anderson, as I recall his deposition -- I
11 went back and looked -- said he had a committee of
12 evidence on a unrelated matter, long before that,
13 that didn't have -- nothing to do with this, which
14 was asked and answered in his deposition. And I
15 believe that Mr. Kartuzinski said he thought he had
16 had a committee of evidence in this particular case
17 but there was no document produced therefrom, and he
18 testified to that.
19 So what he says is accurate; that they have --
20 that those two people that I know of have said, yes,
21 one has nothing to do with this. Kartuzinski
22 testified about his. And there is no document,
23 there's no report, there's no document that Flag
24 has.
25 So I have answered that. And we did go back
360
1 and check it.
2 THE COURT: I -- I think what he is saying is,
3 is your response that none exist --
4 MR. FUGATE: None exist.
5 THE COURT: -- regarding if he were to change
6 his wording to say Flag Services Organization or
7 Church of Scientology International and/or -- in
8 other words, no matter who he put in the request as
9 to who might have it, there are none.
10 MR. FUGATE: The answer would be the same.
11 There are none.
12 MR. DANDAR: And never has been.
13 MR. FUGATE: And never has been as far, as I
14 know. That was answered in the deposition. And I
15 have checked, and there are none.
16 THE COURT: I do remember, now that you
17 mentioned it, because I did read Mr. Kartuzinski's
18 deposition -- I didn't know what this was, but now
19 that I think about it, I do remember him talking
20 about it. I don't remember what he said about any
21 writings, but I presume you've looked for them?
22 MR. FUGATE: I have. Actually, as I said,
23 yesterday I would have answered it, but I thought,
24 before I do that, let me go back and check. And I
25 did, and those are the accurate answers.
361
1 THE COURT: So you don't need to reword this.
2 MR. DANDAR: No.
3 THE COURT: I think what you can assume is
4 there aren't any.
5 MR. DANDAR: Right. And I wasn't --
6 THE COURT: No matter whose name you would put
7 in it, there aren't any.
8 MR. DANDAR: Right.
9 And I didn't ask that question in a derogatory
10 fashion. I just wanted to make sure we covered the
11 oceanfront.
12 THE COURT: Okay.
13 MR. DANDAR: The other thing I want to bring to
14 the court's attention --
15 THE COURT: Is this your original or is this my
16 copy?
17 MR. FUGATE: I think I filed the original with
18 the clerk. Did I? That's your copy, Judge. And
19 you can throw that away or keep it.
20 THE COURT: This is a signed copy which is why
21 I worried --
22 MR. FUGATE: I just signed all of them because
23 I didn't have a stamp.
24 THE COURT: Madam Clerk, this should not be
25 signed as a -- an exhibit in this case. It's just a
362
1 pleading. And both of them are pleadings that need
2 to be filed in the court file as a pleading.
3 And this would be the response, right?
4 MR. DANDAR: Yes.
5 THE COURT: So I am going to throw them out
6 because we've dealt with it.
7 MR. FUGATE: Right.
8 THE COURT: Now, the next thing we have is
9 Plaintiff's motion to abate dissemination of any
10 portion of the film The Profit.
11 It seems to me that that is a matter for
12 Ms. Brooks. I see Ms. Brooks is here, but I don't
13 see her lawyer.
14 MR. FUGATE: Your Honor, I -- I -- I didn't
15 know what that was until last night, and I read it
16 and I saw --
17 THE COURT: I didn't either, and I read it.
18 MR. FUGATE: -- and I saw that -- it seemed to
19 me to relate to either Ms. Brooks and/or Mr. Minton.
20 I contacted -- the only person I could get
21 ahold of last night was Mr. McGowan. He had not
22 received a copy of it. I told him that I would have
23 a copy for him today. And he asked that if you
24 would take this up after lunch, I think he can be
25 here.
363
1 And I'll give him a copy. He had not been
2 served as a copy.
3 THE COURT: He's on the certificate of service,
4 but he may not have gotten --
5 MR. FUGATE: As of last night, he had not seen
6 it. And he, I think, can come over this afternoon.
7 Is that --
8 THE COURT: Is that okay?
9 MR. LIROT: That's fine, Judge.
10 THE COURT: Okay. We'll put this off until
11 this afternoon and we'll take it up after lunch.
12 And if you would -- Ms. Brooks, if you would ask
13 Mr. McGowan to come over after lunch.
14 MS. BROOKS: I will, your Honor.
15 THE COURT: And I think that's --
16 MR. DANDAR: I just want to remind counsel that
17 we're still waiting for Mr. Jonas's notes that the
18 court ordered to be produced, as well as Mr. Rosen's
19 notes on the cases that he discussed the case with
20 Mr. Minton on March 28th.
21 THE COURT: That's right. There was --
22 Mr. Jonas was going to look to see. And Mr. Rosen
23 apparently had had a list of cases. And I believe
24 he was on vacation or he was traveling or something
25 last week.
364
1 MR. FUGATE: I'm sorry, Judge. I was --
2 I heard Mr. Jonas -- I think -- I don't have
3 any communication with him. I'll call Mr. Howie
4 about that. I believe Mr. Howie said he had placed
5 a call to him.
6 THE COURT: He did.
7 Maybe he was -- somebody was traveling. There
8 were two.
9 MR. FUGATE: Well, no. No. Well, actually
10 both of them were, as I remember. Mr. Howie said
11 Mr. Jonas was out of town, and he left a phone mail
12 message. And Mr. Rosen was out of town -- and I
13 didn't communicate with him. And I don't even
14 remember now who did -- but as I understood it he
15 was traveling.
16 I'll check on that today and report back to
17 your Honor. I just had totally forgotten about it.
18 THE COURT: Tell Mr. Rosen that if he doesn't
19 still have it, surely he can put it together --
20 MR. FUGATE: All right.
21 THE COURT: -- and reproduce it, and just state
22 that it may not be what he had, but it's a
23 reproduction.
24 MR. DANDAR: It's the cases with the amounts of
25 money that they spent.
365
1 THE COURT: Right.
2 MR. DANDAR: And finally, I'd like to have a
3 little case management on this hearing. Because if
4 I am the last witness, or I'm not, I need to know
5 approximately when they anticipate us -- the
6 plaintiff putting on its --
7 THE COURT: Okay.
8 MR. DANDAR: -- case.
9 THE COURT: That's fair enough.
10 Are you planning on putting on any witnesses
11 after Mr. Dandar?
12 MR. FUGATE: We are -- well, first of all, we
13 don't anticipate finishing with Mr. Dandar today.
14 And I think that's already been communicated with
15 counsel. And we are contemplating putting on at
16 least two witnesses, and we will let Mr. Dandar know
17 about those two witnesses. But I don't
18 anticipate --
19 THE COURT: Who are they?
20 MR. FUGATE: It would be perhaps Mark Bunker,
21 about the videos and the other discovery, and
22 Ms. Liebreich, unless we determine we can put in her
23 testimony and avoid having to bring her here.
24 THE COURT: Okay. I don't have any problem
25 with Ms. Liebreich's testimony. I do have a problem
366
1 with Ms. Liebreich having been shown depositions of
2 her sister, and those -- those documents being
3 introduced. Those would not be introduced in this
4 hearing.
5 MR. FUGATE: It would not be that, Judge.
6 THE COURT: Okay.
7 MR. FUGATE: It would be for a specific --
8 THE COURT: As far as her testimony, whatever
9 it was, I have absolutely no problem --
10 MR. WEINBERG: It would be her testimony.
11 THE COURT: I will tell you this, that there is
12 a benefit needless to say, of seeing and watching
13 and hearing, observing a witness. You know, I see
14 differences, in looking at the bland transcript,
15 and -- and hearing and listening to witnesses.
16 I say that only because I had certain things --
17 you know, my assumptions about Ms. Liebreich, just
18 kind of assuming that maybe Ms. Liebreich -- well, I
19 really won't go beyond that. I was reading a bland
20 transcript.
21 If either side thinks I would benefit from
22 seeing her, I -- as far as I know, the only time
23 I've ever seen Ms. Liebreich is when this hearing
24 started, and she was sitting at the table. And you
25 know, there was not a thing wrong with her. She
367
1 looked like a nice person. I don't have a clue how
2 she testified. If she was looking at the floor,
3 looking at counsel -- you know, I just don't know.
4 So if there's a benefit to her being presented
5 in person by either side, then that's fine. If
6 there really isn't, it's just the questions and
7 answers, I really have no problem with taking the
8 questions and answers, having them read into the
9 record.
10 MR. WEINBERG: We have video too from those
11 depos.
12 THE COURT: Okay.
13 MR. FUGATE: Bear in mind, actually, what you
14 just said -- because I remember from the beginning
15 of the hearing what you said, and I thought -- and
16 frankly, I haven't had a chance to go look at the
17 portions that I think would be relevant to what
18 we're doing. And if the video appears to be
19 sufficient from my perspective, then we would do
20 that. If not, because of the observation you just
21 made, we may ask her to come here.
22 But I haven't been able to do that. Been doing
23 other things. So I'll try to get to that tonight.
24 But I know, as a matter of fact, that
25 Mr. Dandar won't be finished today. So that's the
368
1 best I can tell you.
2 THE COURT: Okay. Well, if we're going to have
3 her here, then obviously Mr. Dandar's going to need
4 to know that so he doesn't have to bring her down at
5 whatever the cost is, over, you know, next-day fair,
6 which I suppose is usually more expensive.
7 MR. WEINBERG: I told Mr. Lirot that we'd try
8 to decide something at the end of the day. I didn't
9 know Mr. Dandar was going to bring it up now. I
10 talked to Mr. Lirot before.
11 THE COURT: Would she be fairly brief? Her
12 testimony was fairly brief. I'm not sure why this
13 testimony here is so much longer than before Judge
14 Baird. Frankly, the information that was Judge
15 Baird's hearing is what's fairly relevant here.
16 This seems to be much more lengthy --
17 MR. WEINBERG: The part that we want to present
18 to you --
19 THE COURT: -- and --
20 MR. WEINBERG: -- I think is fairly brief.
21 That's why I was hoping. I had contemplated we were
22 doing it maybe from depositions. I realize there is
23 no video from Judge Baird's hearing. We have
24 transcript from that.
25 But I need to talk to these folks. And we'll
369
1 try to have a decision at the end of the day.
2 THE COURT: I'm very leery about putting in
3 piecemeal testimony.
4 MR. WEINBERG: Okay.
5 THE COURT: Quite frankly, I find that is not
6 satisfactory to me. When I look at the rest of the
7 depositions I sometimes find changes later. So if
8 you want to put it all in, put it all in. If you're
9 going to do it piecemeal, don't do that. So either
10 put it all in or call --
11 MR. WEINBERG: I think we would put it all in
12 but highlight for you --
13 THE COURT: You can highlight in your argument.
14 MR. WEINBERG: Okay.
15 THE COURT: You see what I'm saying? Put it
16 in, refer to whatever want to refer to. I assure
17 you if you put it all in, I will read it all and I
18 will know what she said.
19 MR. WEINBERG: We'll try to talk --
20 THE COURT: And I don't object if you want to
21 highlight the things you think are particularly
22 important, as to what you want to talk about. But
23 as I said, I don't like piece meal testimony.
24 MR. WEINBERG: It may make more sense to bring
25 her here and just focus on those particular specific
370
1 areas that we wanted to focus on in the testimony in
2 front of you. That may be the best way of doing it.
3 But let me talk amongst ourselves this
4 afternoon and try to --
5 THE COURT: Okay. My preference obviously is
6 unless it's real important that I see her, that she
7 not need to make the trip.
8 MR. WEINBERG: Okay.
9 THE COURT: I just don't think anybody ought
10 have to fly from Texas to here. It's an ugly trip.
11 By that I mean, it's long, and it's not a very
12 pleasant -- it's a fairly long plane ride.
13 MR. WEINBERG: It is.
14 THE COURT: So if you can do it with her prior
15 testimony, that would be better.
16 MR. WEINBERG: All right.
17 MR. DANDAR: Judge, the other thing is I have a
18 witness scheduling problem. Peter Alexander is not
19 going to be here next week. He is in town now. He
20 lives in Tampa. So hopefully -- I mean, if we can
21 put him on Friday, that'll be great, whenever the
22 defense -- or the plaintiff gets to start.
23 The other thing is we do want Mr. Rinder,
24 Mr. Rosen and Ms. Yingling to appear, as we asked
25 before for our presentation.
371
1 THE COURT: Well, have you subpoenaed them?
2 MR. DANDAR: Well, they're outside the
3 jurisdiction of the court. But they're within the
4 control of the defense?
5 THE COURT: What is it that you expect to gain
6 from having them come?
7 MR. DANDAR: I expect Mr. Rosen, as an officer
8 of the court, to tell the truth as to the
9 conversation he had with Mr. Minton and Ms. Brooks
10 on March the 28th and the 29th. And I expect
11 Mr. Rinder to answer those questions, and
12 Ms. Yingling. And find out why Ms. Yingling, a tax
13 expert attorney, was present during all these
14 meetings.
15 MR. FUGATE: Well, Judge, first of all, I think
16 I may file a motion, if that's his position, because
17 I think both Ms. Brooks and Mr. Minton have
18 testified that there were allegations that began the
19 hearing, as I recall the allegations, that Mr. Rosen
20 was present at a large number of meetings and had
21 made all sorts of threats. It turns out that he was
22 at one, and he -- you've told him he needs to
23 produce his notes as to what the list was he went
24 through.
25 The rest of everything's been testified to by
372
1 Mr. Minton and by Ms. Brooks. And I think a lot of
2 what was said did not -- or what was alleged did not
3 come out from their testimony. And I'm not sure
4 what the relevance of calling those folks would be.
5 And I'll be glad to put together a motion.
6 THE COURT: I think it's highly relevant, quite
7 frankly. And I think the relevance is, you've put
8 on two people who've admitted they've committed
9 perjury. Quite frankly, their credibility does not
10 start necessarily on an even keel. I think
11 therefore that that's their business if they want to
12 corroborate their testimony. If they don't, that
13 inures to your benefit. Why you would want them, I
14 have no idea. So you think that through.
15 If they don't want to put them on, then I think
16 that that is -- I mean, if it were me and I were
17 presenting their case, I would put them on. I would
18 put them on because I would want to lend some
19 credibility to people -- to two people whose
20 believability is crucial to their case. If they
21 don't, then that's their business.
22 But why in the world you think I should compel
23 them to bring them for you is really quite beyond
24 me.
25 So you think that through. I don't know that I
373
1 have any power to compel them to come. I really
2 don't. But as I said, that's -- that's really up to
3 the two of you all. If you --
4 I think they should be here and I think they
5 should testify. However, I think that the person
6 that should call them is the defendant. And if they
7 don't, then I think that is something that they'll
8 have to deal with in closing argument. If you want
9 to compel me to bring them and you think it's just
10 crucial to your case and you think there's anything
11 to be gained by it, and they won't produce them
12 voluntarily, then do your motion. But I really kept
13 expecting before this was over that they would
14 produce these people.
15 MR. FUGATE: Well, I certainly will heed what
16 the court has said, Judge.
17 THE COURT: I think you should. I mean, you've
18 got two people that you want me to believe who said,
19 "I've committed perjury. I'm a liar. And I'm a
20 liar under oath." Now, that's something that -- I
21 really don't have to tell you that.
22 MR. FUGATE: No, your Honor.
23 THE COURT: I mean, I would think you would
24 know that. I haven't researched the law, but I
25 would certainly think that when the court determines
374
1 credibility of one person versus another, one of
2 whom says, "I'm a liar under oath," and one of whom
3 says, "I'm not lying and this didn't happen," well,
4 that certainly weighs on the court's credibility and
5 determination. There's just no doubt about it. Any
6 court in the land would weigh that.
7 So as I said, why you would want me to bring
8 them, I have no idea. I don't understand lawyers
9 and why they want what they want and why they don't
10 do what they don't do.
11 On the other hand, I think they ought to
12 testify. I think that would be beneficial. If --
13 if you think that it's so important that they're
14 going to come here and somehow or another say that
15 these two people lied, why then, I'll just bring
16 them in for you.
17 But I think you -- I don't know that you're
18 going to -- to gain anything by it. I don't know
19 that you're not going to gain anything by it. I
20 have no idea what these people might say. It would
21 seem that somebody would want to produce -- I'm just
22 amazed that it would have to be you.
23 And whether I have the authority to produce
24 them, I have no idea.
25 MR. DANDAR: All right, Judge. I'll let you
375
1 know.
2 MR. WEINBERG: First of all, just so we --
3 following up what you said, we never said we
4 wouldn't produce them. And frankly, I had
5 contemplated possibly calling them, but then I saw
6 the hearing going so long, so I was beginning to try
7 to look ways to shorten it. But I hear -- I hear
8 you loud and clear.
9 And we never said we wouldn't produce them.
10 So --
11 THE COURT: No, I know --
12 MR. WEINBERG: If --
13 THE COURT: You didn't.
14 MR. WEINBERG: If --
15 THE COURT: I --
16 MR. WEINBERG: If Mr. Dandar insisted and --
17 that he wanted Mr. Rosen down here, Mr. Rosen will
18 come down here and testify, but -- you know, it may
19 well be we'll just put them on. And that's
20 something else we'll talk about at lunch.
21 THE COURT: As I said, I don't want to pull any
22 punches here. Naturally, this court, as I have said
23 from the very outset, takes this matter very
24 seriously. These are serious allegations, a serious
25 motion. You know, both sides better put on their
376
1 best case. And if it isn't your best case and you
2 lose or you win, so be it. But I don't want to hear
3 any whining afterwards, "Well, if I had known
4 that --" obviously, you're asking me to take the
5 word of two people, both of whom have said, "I lie,
6 and I lie under oath, but believe me now." And of
7 course, you're naturally going to do the best you to
8 corroborate their testimony as best you can.
9 MR. WEINBERG: By --
10 THE COURT: But the other side is, obviously,
11 saying, "They're lying."
12 MR. WEINBERG: Right.
13 THE COURT: "I have not said I've committed
14 perjury under oath. They are not telling you the
15 truth."
16 Now I have to weigh that, plain and simple.
17 MR. WEINBERG: And I guess, you know, we have a
18 particularly sort of unique position, because
19 it's -- because really, Bob Minton and Stacy Brooks
20 are certainly not our witnesses. I mean, given --
21 You've seen the whole history of all this.
22 THE COURT: They are your witnesses as far as
23 this hearing.
24 MR. WEINBERG: We put them on, but -- we put
25 them on, but in the traditional sense of our
377
1 witness, you know, it is -- these are people that --
2 that fought long and hard --
3 THE COURT: You can save that argument. As far
4 as I'm concerned, you put them on. You're going to
5 ask me to believe them, plain and simple.
6 Mr. Dandar, resume the stand.
7 MR. FUGATE: Judge, I also am listening. And
8 here is another notebook, but this one has all of
9 the iterations of the complaints. I think yesterday
10 you asked I've got Number 5, or the current fifth
11 amended complaint, and you were looking for some
12 others. So what I did is have original, first
13 amended, and then a fifth series.
14 If you need them for reference --
15 THE COURT: That's good.
16 MR. FUGATE: -- they're there.
17 THE COURT: I'm not sure I don't have those in
18 another book of the complaints filed in this case.
19 Is this it? Did I get this --
20 MR. WEINBERG: Well --
21 THE COURT: -- yesterday?
22 MR. WEINBERG: -- why don't we take that one
23 back?
24 THE COURT: You want this one back?
25 MR. WEINBERG: Yeah. 'cause is a more
378
1 complete --
2 THE COURT: Okay.
3 MR. WEINBERG: -- that he just gave you.
4 THE COURT: Yeah. I thought you gave me that
5 yesterday.
6 MR. WEINBERG: I did.
7 MR. FUGATE: I was listening. It was something
8 else, then.
9 THE COURT: Well, it was -- he gave it to me
10 and asked me to refer to one tab, and then we got
11 off into some discussion.
12 MR. WEINBERG: Because I think there's been
13 nine or 10 different versions. And you know,
14 it's -- we've all lost track.
15 THE COURT: Well, I've lost track of how many
16 notebooks I have too --
17 MR. FUGATE: A bunch.
18 THE COURT: -- I'll tell you that.
19 A bunch.
20 So I may have this two or three other places,
21 for all I know.
22 MR. DANDAR: Judge, I do have my graph of the
23 calls between my phones and the LMT phones.
24 THE COURT: Okay. Do you want to --
25 MR. WEINBERG: Well, I'm going to get back to
379
1 that later, if I can.
2 THE COURT: Okay. You might want to use that
3 when it's -- your counsel's time --
4 MR. DANDAR: All right.
5 THE COURT: -- and you let them use theirs --
6 MR. DANDAR: All right.
7 THE COURT: -- and you use theirs.
8 MR. WEINBERG: Judge, I'm going to try to go to
9 a few others areas first, which I think will be a
10 faster pace. Because these phone records kind of
11 slow you down. And later on we'll go back to that.
12 MR. DANDAR: What, after 4:00?
13 MR. WEINBERG: Maybe after 4:00.
14 (A discussion was held off the record.)
15 THE COURT: Go ahead.
16 BY MR. WEINBERG:
17 Q Mr. Dandar, yesterday you said that -- in response
18 to some questions, that you were unenthusiastic about --
19 about Bob Minton's idea of establishing the Lisa McPherson
20 Trust?
21 A Yes.
22 Q You were not in favor of it. And in fact you
23 asked him not to do it, correct?
24 A I -- well, there's several things there.
25 I was un- -- not -- I was asking him not to use
380
1 the name of Lisa McPherson in establishing this organization
2 that he wanted to establish. And I wasn't enthusiastic
3 about the picketing. Now, if he wanted to help people who
4 needed help, who wanted to leave Scientology and needed
5 counseling and things like that, that was something that
6 wasn't provided on a routine basis anywhere, so that was all
7 right. But the rest of it, I always expressed to him my --
8 Q Now --
9 A -- hesitation.
10 Q Do you recall that on December 4th, 1999, which is
11 right after you had incorporated the Lisa McPherson Trust,
12 that you, Ken Dandar, were the one that made the public
13 announcement of the opening -- of the establishment of the
14 Lisa McPherson Trust? Do you --
15 A Well, that would have been at the time of the
16 vigil. And that's all -- I don't remember that, no.
17 Q But you remember that -- that on December 4th, you
18 held a press conference where you addressed picketers and
19 members of the media at the Holiday Inn. And that actually
20 was the conference -- was the press conference where we
21 played the clip where you talked about the -- Jesse Prince
22 and the end cycle? Do you remember that?
23 A I participated -- I was asked to be one of the
24 many speakers at this gathering. And I'm not -- and the
25 press was there sporadically, and I did speak. But I didn't
381
1 hold a press conference, as you just suggested.
2 Q And do you remember at that gathering, when you
3 were at the microphone -- and there was a press microphone
4 there as well; there was a big banner with "The Lisa
5 McPherson Trust," and you actually made the announcement
6 that -- that Mr. Minton had established the Lisa McPherson
7 Trust?
8 A Well, looks like you got it on video, so I'm sure
9 you're correct. But it's --
10 You know, Michael Rinder was there as well.
11 MR. WEINBERG: We have a short video. Can we
12 play it?
13 (The videotape was played as follows:)
14 "Also, I am proud to say that the Lisa
15 McPherson Trust has been formed and is comprised of
16 individuals dedicated to serve the wishes of Lisa's
17 mother, Fannie McPherson. The Lisa McPherson Trust,
18 organized by Robert Minton -- who is not a worldwide
19 conspirator, by the way, but who is an extremely
20 gracious individual -- formed the Lisa McPherson
21 Trust to pursue the wishes of Fannie McPherson,
22 which are very simple: Expose the truth and the
23 abuses of the Church of Scientology. 'Tell the
24 world how my daughter, Lisa, died, and help other
25 victims of abuse from Scientology.' And that's
382
1 their stated goals, in writing, and that's what that
2 trust is all about."
3 (End of videotape.)
4 BY MR. WEINBERG:
5 Q Now, let me just hand up to you --
6 MR. WEINBERG: We'll mark as --
7 A Well, is there a question that -- going with
8 that --
9 BY MR. WEINBERG:
10 Q Yes, there is a question.
11 A All right. I didn't want to miss it.
12 Q Excuse me?
13 A I didn't want to miss it. I --
14 Q You -- that does refresh your recollection, that
15 you were the one -- they hadn't even opened their doors yet.
16 You were the one that made the first public announcement of
17 the establishment of the Lisa McPherson Trust, correct?
18 A I can't agree with that. I do not think that's
19 true. I think that was just a press briefing, when I said I
20 was one of the many participants who was asked to stand up
21 and say something.
22 Q And you said that the -- that the purpose of the
23 Lisa McPherson Trust was to expose the truth about
24 Scientology and tell the world how Lisa -- Lisa McPherson,
25 Fannie McPherson's daughter, died. That's what you said,
383
1 right?
2 A That's partly what I said, right.
3 Q That sounds like -- telling the world about how
4 Lisa McPherson died sounds a whole lot like the wrongful
5 death case, doesn't it? That has to do with the wrongful
6 death case, doesn't it?
7 A No, it doesn't. That would be there no matter if
8 there was a case or not a case.
9 Q Well, in fact --
10 A That wasn't in the case.
11 Q The fact of the matter is that the Lisa McPherson
12 Trust was used, from that point on when it opened up, until
13 it closed, to be very closely associated and affiliated with
14 the Lisa McPherson wrongful death case, wasn't it?
15 A That's false.
16 Q And not only were there all these phone calls but
17 there were a number of people there working at the Lisa
18 McPherson Trust, associated with the Lisa McPherson Trust,
19 that ended up on your witness list.
20 A Two.
21 Q And -- and for a year --
22 A Two out of 109.
23 Q And for a year, from June of 2000 until the Lisa
24 McPherson Trust closed sometime in the fall of 2001, your
25 expert witness, Jesse Prince, was being paid full-time by
384
1 the Lisa McPherson Trust, wasn't he?
2 A Because he was a full-time employee doing work for
3 the trust unrelated to the case.
4 Q Right.
5 THE COURT: Is the answer yes?
6 THE WITNESS: I'm sorry. Yes.
7 BY MR. WEINBERG:
8 Q And from that time until June of 2000 until
9 whenever it is in 2001, you -- Mr. Prince was working among
10 other things on the wrongful death case for you, wasn't he?
11 A When he showed up for depositions, he was, that's
12 correct.
13 Q Well, I mean, we're going to go into it in more
14 detail when you show me your list, but I think I heard you
15 say yesterday that 56 percent of your calls with the Lisa
16 McPherson Trust were to Jesse Prince.
17 A That's right.
18 Q Right. But -- and many of those calls happened
19 from June of 2000 until -- until the last call in 2001.
20 A That's correct.
21 Q Right.
22 And during that period of time, those calls with
23 Jesse Prince, I assume you're going to say, had to do with
24 the Lisa McPherson wrongful death case, right?
25 A That's right.
385
1 Q But during the period when these calls were taking
2 place, you weren't paying him; the Lisa McPherson Trust was
3 paying him.
4 A That's right.
5 Q And yet you say the Lisa McPherson trust doesn't
6 have anything to do -- I think you said -- anything to do
7 with the wrongful death case.
8 A That's correct.
9 Jesse Prince does. There's a big difference
10 there.
11 Q Okay. And how did it come about that you suddenly
12 ceded the responsibility of paying your expert witness, the
13 one on which you base the fifth amended complaint on, the
14 allegations about -- about letting her die and -- and end
15 cycle -- how is it that it came to be that you ceded the
16 responsibility of paying this expert witness to the Lisa
17 McPherson Trust in June of 2000?
18 A Well, I never ceded the responsibility of paying
19 for my expert witness to anyone, including the Lisa
20 McPherson Trust. So that's not correct. And number two, I
21 no longer needed Jesse Prince to work with me day in and day
22 out on the case, as he had been doing for a year.
23 Q So was it gratis, now, as far as the wrongful
24 death case was concerned? Ken Dandar didn't have to pay any
25 more for his -- his main witness for the fifth amended
386
1 complaint? You don't have to pay anymore as of June of
2 2000?
3 A He wasn't working for me full-time so I didn't
4 have to pay him for not working. That's right. I don't pay
5 people for not working.
6 Q Well, but you do pay people for working. And he
7 was working on the case. So why didn't you pay him for the
8 time that he was working on the case?
9 A I said that I was not charged for phone calls to
10 Jesse Prince. I was not charged if he showed up at a
11 deposition. I was not charged for that, if he wanted to
12 assist me. And I believe -- I would have to look at the
13 deposition list to see how many took place from June of 2000
14 to December of 2001, involved staff members of the Church of
15 Scientology.
16 Q Well, you're not saying --
17 THE COURT: Wait a second. I'm sorry.
18 MR. WEINBERG: I'm sorry.
19 THE COURT: I know you're on -- you're wanting
20 to continue.
21 Are you saying that your expert didn't charge
22 you for either his own --
23 I don't know when --
24 When was his deposition taken?
25 MR. WEINBERG: Jesse Prince's?
387
1 THE COURT: Yes.
2 MR. WEINBERG: The first time it was -- it was
3 taken was in November of '99.
4 THE COURT: Okay. So that was before LMT.
5 If his deposition was taken anytime after LMT
6 was formed, I presume he charged you an expert
7 witness fee for his deposition.
8 THE WITNESS: Well, I didn't -- they took his
9 deposition. They refused to pay his expert witness
10 fee, which is probably a subject of a motion --
11 THE COURT: Okay.
12 THE WITNESS: -- before the court.
13 THE COURT: So -- I'm sorry. So they took his
14 deposition. Therefore they would have been
15 responsible --
16 THE WITNESS: Yes.
17 THE COURT: -- for paying his expert witness
18 fee.
19 THE WITNESS: Yes.
20 THE COURT: When he sat with you -- I gather at
21 some of the depositions he sat in to assist you, if
22 it was staff people from the church, is that
23 correct?
24 THE WITNESS: Yes.
25 THE COURT: And are you saying that if those
388
1 depositions were after this June of 2000 date, he
2 did it free, but if it was before June of 2000, he
3 was on your payroll, so in effect he was being paid?
4 THE WITNESS: Correct.
5 BY MR. WEINBERG:
6 Q And --
7 THE COURT: Go ahead.
8 BY MR. WEINBERG:
9 Q And -- and is it -- you had an arrangement, didn't
10 you, with Mr. Minton and Ms. Brooks, that -- that as of June
11 of 2000, they were going to take care of paying Jesse Prince
12 for the work that he did in the wrongful death case.
13 A That is false.
14 Q All right. So who did you have the arrangement
15 with? How was it that -- that you -- it came to be that --
16 that suddenly, in June of 2000, right at the time when the
17 first trial was supposed to begin, that he went off your
18 payroll and went onto the LMT for work that had to do for
19 the case?
20 A Because the trial of June, 2000 was continued by
21 the court, and I didn't need him to be there full-time, so I
22 said, "Jesse, you know, I don't need you here full-time."
23 And then he went and made arrangements with Bob Minton or
24 Stacy Brooks -- I mean, I don't know which one -- to work
25 full-time at the Lisa McPherson Trust.
389
1 Q Well, did he talk to you about that; that he was
2 going to relieve you of the responsibility of paying him?
3 A I had no responsibility to pay him unless I asked
4 him to help me.
5 Q Well, did he ask you to get paid for the work that
6 he did on the case once he went on the payroll of the LMT?
7 A No. Not that I remember anyway.
8 Q So it was just an understanding that you had with
9 Mr. Prince that you didn't have to pay him anymore, even
10 though he was working on the case?
11 A No. If he would have sent me a bill, I would have
12 paid it, but he didn't say I needed to pay him, that I
13 recall, as I sit here, nor did I pay him for phone calls or
14 showing up to assist me with questions of staff.
15 Q Well, you knew, at the time of his November, 1999
16 deposition, that the deal that Jesse Prince had was that he
17 was getting paid $5,000 a month, starting at FACTNet. Then
18 we showed you the checks from Bob Minton. And then you gave
19 him $5,000 a month, from Mr. Minton's money, for between
20 June of '99 and May of 2000. And then after that, he was
21 getting $5,000 a month again from LMT, as long as it was in
22 existence. And then you heard in this hearing he got $5,000
23 a month, up until almost the start of this proceeding, from
24 Ms. Brooks.
25 You knew that was the deal; that he was getting
390
1 5,000 bucks a month in his deal with Mr. Minton, right?
2 A No.
3 Q Well, why were you paying him 5,000 a month?
4 Didn't Mr. Minton tell you that that's what the deal was?
5 A No. That's the -- that's the arrangement --
6 that's what I agreed to pay Mr. Prince when I asked him to
7 come work on this case and educate me full-time, from June
8 of '99 to the end of May, 2000.
9 Q All right. And he told you that prior to that
10 time, that he was getting $5,000 a month from Mr. Minton --
11 A I don't think --
12 Q -- right?
13 A -- that --
14 No. I don't think that's true.
15 Q Well, he told you he was getting $5,000 a month
16 from somebody.
17 A I don't think that's true. I don't think he --
18 I -- I don't -- as I sit here -- I'm trying to remember as
19 best I can, but I don't remember him ever telling me, "This
20 is what I've been paid in the past."
21 Q Okay.
22 THE COURT: Did -- did -- this, I know; that if
23 I had reviewed the transcripts I would know.
24 Did Ms. Brooks say that she had paid Mr. Prince
25 after LMT closed?
391
1 MR. WEINBERG: Yes.
2 THE COURT: Or did Mr. Minton pay him?
3 MR. WEINBERG: She said that she cut the
4 checks. It was Mr. Minton's money, but that she had
5 actually written the last check to Mr. Prince --
6 again, this is my recollection -- I think she said
7 on April 4th or thereabouts of 2002.
8 THE COURT: Obviously, not out of LMT's
9 account, but out of her personal check?
10 MR. WEINBERG: I think it's out of her personal
11 account.
12 THE WITNESS: Yes.
13 THE COURT: But it was Mr. Minton's money?
14 THE WITNESS: Yes.
15 MR. WEINBERG: It was Mr. Minton's money.
16 What I can't recall is -- I don't know whether
17 the check's in evidence or not. I don't remember.
18 THE WITNESS: Check is not in evidence, but
19 that's what her testimony was.
20 THE COURT: Okay. I just couldn't remember
21 whether it was Ms. Brooks or Mr. Minton.
22 BY MR. WEINBERG:
23 Q All right. Now, Mr. Prince -- just so it's clear,
24 Mr. Prince didn't just go to depositions; he went to
25 hearings too. There were a number of hearings in front of
392
1 Judge Moody that Mr. Prince went to, right?
2 A Before he went to work at the LMT? That's
3 correct.
4 Q There were hearings that he went to after he went
5 to work with the LMT.
6 A Well, Judge Moody wasn't the judge much longer
7 after June of 2000, so I'm not sure.
8 I mean, the records will speak for themself when
9 he was present.
10 Q Okay.
11 THE COURT: Was there some understanding
12 between you and Mr. Minton and/or Ms. Brooks that
13 when Jesse was working -- Mr. Prince was working for
14 you, you'd pay him 5,000 a month, and when he was
15 working for them they'd pay him 5,000 a month, and
16 it just depended on who he was doing the bulk of his
17 work for, or was there no understanding among you?
18 THE WITNESS: No. There was no understanding.
19 There was no discussion about it. I had him for a
20 certain period of time, and then I told him I didn't
21 need him to be there all the time, and that's when
22 he went to work for the LMT. But there was no
23 arrangement from me to have him go work at the LMT.
24 I just said, you know, "You don't need to be here
25 full-time anymore."
393
1 BY MR. WEINBERG:
2 Q All right. Well, let me show you -- I'll hand up
3 a document. And we're going to try to refresh your
4 recollection as to how this --
5 MR. WEINBERG: I don't think there's a need to
6 mark this unless -- it just refreshes Mr. Dandar's
7 recollection.
8 BY MR. WEINBERG:
9 Q Now, Mr. Prince started at the LMT in June of
10 2000. And the first hearing that I was able to locate was a
11 June 7th hearing in front of Judge Moody that Mr. Prince and
12 Dr. Garko, Ben Shaw, even Mike Rinder -- all kinds of people
13 were there, including yourself, correct?
14 A No. I -- I just had my five-way, bypass,
15 Mr. Weinberg, and the record shows my brother was there.
16 Q Okay. And your brother was there. I'm sorry.
17 A And I'd like to know -- you know, I don't even
18 know what this is about. So anyway --
19 Q Well, we'll get the full transcript.
20 A But anyway, the record says he was at June 7th,
21 2000. So -- so -- so what?
22 Q Okay. I'm just saying --
23 A That's fine.
24 Q -- LMT --
25 A All right.
394
1 Q I mean do you remember that Teresa Summers' depo
2 was taken?
3 A No. I took Teresa Summers' depo, so it was before
4 this.
5 Q Do you remember that -- I guess your bypass is
6 going on -- that your brother appeared at Teresa Summers'
7 first depo?
8 A Is that right?
9 Q I'm going to show you.
10 A All right. I thought I took it. Boy, I'm really
11 not doing too well if I don't remember that.
12 Well, that's what it says. I wasn't there.
13 Q Teresa Summers is a -- she's on your witness list.
14 She was an employee of the LMT.
15 Mr. Prince made an appearance at her deposition on
16 June 13th, 2000, I guess, again, done by your brother,
17 right?
18 A That's right.
19 Q Right. But this time Mr. Prince was on the LMT
20 payroll.
21 A That's right.
22 Q But you all aren't being billed for his work,
23 right?
24 A He didn't send me a bill, that's right.
25 Q Okay. Now, let me show you --
395
1 MR. WEINBERG: If I can, your Honor --
2 THE COURT: I suppose it might be a good idea
3 to have these marked. I don't know what --
4 MR. WEINBERG: Okay.
5 THE COURT: I don't know how else --
6 MR. WEINBERG: I will.
7 THE COURT: -- we're going to --
8 Well, do them all and then we'll make them --
9 MR. WEINBERG: We'll do them all at the end.
10 A This shows her first depo was June 13th, 2000.
11 BY MR. WEINBERG:
12 Q Right.
13 A But --
14 Well, wait a minute. Wait a minute. There's
15 something wrong.
16 What's wrong is this shows Sclafani Court
17 Reporters being the court reporters.
18 Q Right.
19 A And unless we had two court reporters there, I
20 don't use Sclafani.
21 Q I think it's a depo --
22 A I --
23 Q -- we were taking.
24 A Pardon me?
25 Q I think it's a depo we were taking.
396
1 A Well then --
2 Okay.
3 Q But we'll get the full transcript.
4 A I thought I took the first depo.
5 THE COURT: Well, maybe you took the -- the
6 first depo and this is their depo.
7 THE WITNESS: That's possible. I can't --
8 BY MR. WEINBERG:
9 Q And I'm handing you up another depo transcript,
10 this is one of the church people, Brian Anderson. His name
11 came up today. You were asking for his -- what do you call
12 it --
13 THE COURT: Confidence report.
14 BY MR. WEINBERG:
15 Q The --
16 A Committee --
17 Q Goodness gracious --
18 A -- of evidence.
19 Q -- what do we call it?
20 The committee of evidence.
21 A Right.
22 Q You asked about that today.
23 And his depo was taken on December 6th, 2000, well
24 into Mr. Prince's work at the LMT. And Mr. Prince showed up
25 as your expert at that deposition. And you were there,
397
1 right?
2 A Oh, yes. Well, this says what I just told you at
3 the beginning of this questioning.
4 Q And did he bill you for this?
5 A No.
6 Q Okay.
7 A Did he stay for the whole deposition? I don't
8 know. I kind of remember him not staying for the whole
9 deposition.
10 Q Well, you invited him there, right?
11 A Yes.
12 Q He was there for a purpose, right?
13 A Yes.
14 Q Mr. Minton had told you that you needed to
15 increase the -- the participation of Mr. Prince in the
16 Scientology aspects of the case, and this is what you --
17 this is how you were doing it, right?
18 A Wrong.
19 Q All right. Let me show you the next one.
20 A Mr. Minton had nothing to do with Mr. Prince being
21 there. That was my idea, all by myself.
22 Q Now, you remember Annie Mora's deposition?
23 A Yes.
24 Q You were at that one, weren't you?
25 A January 17th, 2001.
398
1 Q All right.
2 A That's correct.
3 Q That's well into Mr. Prince's work at the LMT,
4 right?
5 A That's right.
6 Q And you remember that deposition. There was a --
7 there was a dispute, I think, if I remember correctly, that
8 took place at that deposition, right, about the 6-foot rule
9 or whatever it was?
10 A Yeah. I remember you and Mr. Shaw behaving so
11 unprofessionally, yelling and screaming --
12 THE COURT: That's not necessary. Honestly.
13 For heaven's sake --
14 THE WITNESS: Well, that resulted in the order
15 of Judge Quesada to have Judge Beach show up at all
16 the depositions.
17 THE COURT: So whatever it was, that's the one
18 that caused Judge Beach to have to sit in on the
19 rest of the depositions.
20 THE WITNESS: That's right.
21 BY MR. WEINBERG:
22 Q Well, Mr. Prince was there, wasn't he?
23 A He was sitting behind me. Yes, he was there.
24 Q All right. And he didn't bill you for that
25 deposition, right?
399
1 A No.
2 Let me make it easy. He hasn't billed me for any
3 deposition.
4 Q No, but I want to show you this. I mean, it's --
5 A Okay.
6 Q It's a simple question.
7 A All right.
8 Q The answer is, I'm right, correct?
9 A You're correct.
10 Q All right. And by the way, Annie Mora is one of
11 the staff members in the Office of Special Affairs, working,
12 which Mr. Shaw was part of, correct?
13 A That's correct.
14 Q So she's a Scientologist.
15 A Yes.
16 Q Was the idea, by the way, to bring Jesse Prince to
17 the Scientologists' depositions so that it would -- it would
18 cause some harassment? Was that the idea?
19 A No. I already answered your question. He has the
20 expertise on Scientology matters, that even after all this
21 time, I still don't have as much as he has.
22 Q Okay. You remember Judy Fontana?
23 THE COURT: If you've got just jillions of
24 these --
25 MR. WEINBERG: No. This is the last one.
400
1 THE COURT: All right.
2 A Yes, I do.
3 BY MR. WEINBERG:
4 Q And she's another member --
5 A OSA.
6 Q Part of Mr. Saw's office? Or was at one point?
7 A That's correct.
8 MR. WEINBERG: Okay. My last one, Judge.
9 THE COURT: Okay.
10 BY MR. WEINBERG:
11 Q Her deposition was taken on January 30th, 2001.
12 And I believe you'll see that Mr. Prince appeared -- well,
13 you do remember that he showed up at that depo, right?
14 A Yes.
15 MR. WEINBERG: Okay. Your Honor, I'm going to
16 mark these as composite exhibit. And I'll tick them
17 off for the record: The June 7th, 2000
18 proceeding --
19 THE COURT: It's all in the record. Just put
20 them in the record.
21 MR. WEINBERG: Okay. Well, I just want to make
22 sure that I've got them all here. I've got four.
23 How many do you have?
24 THE COURT: I have one, two, three, four --
25 MR. WEINBERG: Maybe it's five.
401
1 THE COURT: -- five. And actually, I've got
2 mine in order datewise, and I suggest you do the
3 same.
4 MR. WEINBERG: That's what I'm doing.
5 THE COURT: And I suggest the clerk staple them
6 together and mark them as a composite exhibit next
7 in line.
8 MR. WEINBERG: I see what I did wrong.
9 THE COURT: What is it, Madam Clerk?
10 THE CLERK: Number 155.
11 THE COURT: LMT, I've forgotten, closed down in
12 December of 2001?
13 THE WITNESS: Yes.
14 MR. WEINBERG: Well, I think effectively is --
15 what Ms. Brooks says is after Mr. Minton cut off
16 funding in August --
17 THE COURT: I just want a date.
18 MR. WEINBERG: I don't think I have a date. I
19 don't --
20 THE COURT: All right.
21 THE WITNESS: I think there's been testimony
22 December, 2001.
23 THE COURT: That's what my recollection was.
24 MR. WEINBERG: All right.
25 THE COURT: Sometime toward the end of 2001.
402
1 THE WITNESS: Most definitely.
2 MR. WEINBERG: It's definitely in the fall of
3 2001.
4 THE COURT: Right.
5 MR. WEINBERG: And this is marked as --
6 THE CLERK: 155.
7 MR. WEINBERG: Defense 155.
8 THE CLERK: A, B, C and D, E.
9 MR. WEINBERG: Just get this off my desk here.
10 BY MR. WEINBERG:
11 Q Now, you also had, while we're on this subject
12 matter, Ms. Brooks, while she was working at the LMT, coming
13 to hearings and to depositions on occasion, correct?
14 A Well, I can't answer that yes or no without
15 looking at the -- I hate to say that, but without looking at
16 the court reporter's transcript like you showed me for these
17 depositions.
18 Q Okay. Well, let me -- before we get there, let me
19 establish something.
20 Ms. Brooks was never paid by Dandar and Dandar
21 in -- once she -- once she became involved in the lawsuit,
22 is that right?
23 A Well, I don't know what you mean by became
24 involved in the lawsuit.
25 Q All right.
403
1 THE COURT: The question was -- it was just
2 real simple. You've told us she was your consultant
3 at some point in time. He wants to know if you ever
4 paid her.
5 THE WITNESS: I never paid her -- I found one
6 check that was written to her and her husband,
7 Vaughn, and after that it was all written to Vaughn.
8 So the first check was written to her and her
9 husband, and -- and then I never paid her a check
10 jointly or individually.
11 So the answer is, correct, I never paid her.
12 BY MR. WEINBERG:
13 Q Okay. And those -- and just so it's clear --
14 THE COURT: Were they married during -- I --
15 just so I can establish this, were they married when
16 she was working for you as her consultant at first?
17 THE WITNESS: Yes.
18 THE COURT: Okay. Was there a time when she
19 and he were both working for you, and you just wrote
20 a check to him as opposed to the two of them --
21 THE WITNESS: Uh --
22 THE COURT: -- or was his money for him and the
23 one check you gave her was work for her, or do
24 you --
25 THE WITNESS: I put her on the check by
404
1 mistake. All the checks were to Vaughn Young.
2 Because actually, it was Vaughn Young -- he was
3 doing all the work for me, not Stacy, in 1997, when
4 they were still married.
5 THE COURT: Okay.
6 BY MR. WEINBERG:
7 Q Okay. But in 19 -- starting -- starting sometime
8 in 1999, Ms. Brooks became your consultant in the wrongful
9 death case, correct?
10 A Well, it could have been '98, but definitely '99
11 she was a consultant, yes.
12 Q Right.
13 A Unpaid.
14 Q Right. She was again working gratis for you.
15 A Yes, she was. But she wasn't working that much.
16 I mean, most of her work was reviewing the PC folders with
17 Jesse Prince. And then after that it was just whenever she
18 would show up.
19 THE COURT: The PC folders of Jesse Prince?
20 THE WITNESS: With Jesse Prince.
21 THE COURT: Oh, with.
22 A Of Lisa McPherson. That was December, I think, we
23 established.
24 BY MR. WEINBERG:
25 Q Of '98.
405
1 A '98.
2 After that, it was just whenever she would just
3 show up, whenever I would just go to the LMT after
4 something, in Clearwater, and just -- or talk to her on the
5 phone for something.
6 Q But you never got a bill from her.
7 A No.
8 Q And you had an arrangement, did you not, with
9 Mr. Minton and Ms. Brooks, that Mr. Minton would take care
10 of the responsibility of paying Ms. Brooks for her work as a
11 consultant on the wrongful death case.
12 A False.
13 Q Now --
14 A That is not true at all.
15 Q -- did you have some understanding with someone
16 that you didn't have to pay her when she showed up at
17 hearings and at depositions?
18 A No. No understanding with anyone.
19 Q Were you just waiting for a bill, but you just
20 didn't get it?
21 A I wasn't waiting for a bill. I just -- if she
22 sent me a bill, I would have paid it.
23 Q Now, once the LMT opened up at the beginning of --
24 the end of '99 --
25 THE COURT: I'm sorry. I just have to --
406
1 'cause I'll never, ever remember to ask this.
2 MR. WEINBERG: Okay.
3 THE COURT: Did, on the PC folders of Lisa
4 McPherson, both Mr. Prince and Ms. Brooks assist you
5 in looking at those and giving you information --
6 THE WITNESS: Yeah.
7 THE COURT: -- their thoughts on what they
8 meant?
9 THE WITNESS: Yes.
10 THE COURT: Okay. And was she --
11 Mr. Prince was paid for that.
12 THE WITNESS: No.
13 THE COURT: He was not paid for that.
14 THE WITNESS: No. He was not. Not -- I'm
15 talking about December, '98 when they spent a few
16 days looking at the original PC folders, and then
17 Mr. Prince told me which ones I should get copied,
18 which were 1995, at that time. And then after that,
19 Mr. Prince spent a considerable amount of time --
20 THE COURT: It was after that he -- he became a
21 permanent fixture on your payroll for a while?
22 THE WITNESS: Six months later.
23 THE COURT: And she never did.
24 THE WITNESS: No.
25 THE COURT: But neither of them billed you for
407
1 their work on the PC folders.
2 THE WITNESS: Not that December, '98, that's
3 correct.
4 THE COURT: Okay.
5 THE WITNESS: That was, I think, two -- two
6 days --
7 THE COURT: Okay.
8 THE WITNESS: -- of review.
9 THE COURT: I just wanted to establish that in
10 my own mind. Thank you.
11 MR. WEINBERG: I was going to actually ask the
12 same question --
13 THE COURT: Oh.
14 MR. WEINBERG: -- so --
15 THE COURT: Okay.
16 BY MR. WEINBERG:
17 Q And they had --
18 MR. WEINBERG: Actually, a number of questions
19 you asked I was going to ask.
20 BY MR. WEINBERG:
21 Q They spent quite a bit -- quite a number of hours
22 looking at those PC folders in December of '98, didn't they?
23 A I think a total of four to six hours a day, times
24 two.
25 Q Right.
408
1 Plus they spent time talking to you about their
2 review of the PC folders. Because while they were reviewing
3 them, they couldn't talk to you, because there was a
4 representative from the Church of Scientology there.
5 A That's not true. They were in my conference room
6 alone. I was in there from time to time, talking to them.
7 Q Well, where was Glen Steilo, the representative of
8 the church?
9 A He was sitting across the hall in the reception
10 area.
11 Q All right. Now, Stacy Brooks, once the LMT opened
12 up, she -- she was being paid and was working at the LMT.
13 So beginning in January of 2000, whatever money Stacy Brooks
14 was getting was coming from someone other than you.
15 A You know, I had no personal knowledge of that.
16 Q Okay. But you know that she was supposedly
17 working full-time on the LMT at that point, until it closed.
18 A Well, she was working full-time. Whether or not
19 she's been paid to do that, I have no idea.
20 Q Okay. And during that period of time, from
21 December, '99, January of 2000, until the LMT closed,
22 whenever it was, in the fall of 2001, Stacy Brooks did
23 things on the wrongful death case, as your consultant, while
24 she was at the LMT, being paid by the LMT. Yes?
25 A No. I -- I can't say yes. I mean, if she showed
409
1 up at a depo or she showed up at a hearing, then I can say
2 yes, if you show me that.
3 Q Okay. I guess I need --
4 A Otherwise --
5 Q -- to show it to you.
6 A -- it was, you know, just talking to her briefly.
7 Q Okay. Stacy Brooks came to Benetta Slaughter's
8 depo, didn't she?
9 THE COURT: Don't have him try to guess. He
10 doesn't know.
11 MR. WEINBERG: Well, I was in the process of
12 walking --
13 THE COURT: Give him what you've got --
14 MR. WEINBERG: Okay.
15 THE COURT: -- and let him see it, and then
16 he'll acknowledge if she was there, if she was.
17 Give him all of them at one time. You don't need to
18 drag this thing out for 20 minutes, what can be done
19 in five.
20 MR. WEINBERG: I know I've got them separated,
21 so --
22 THE COURT: Well, unseparate them.
23 THE WITNESS: I'll do that for you if you want.
24 MR. WEINBERG: Well, I've got them in packages.
25 THE WITNESS: I know. I can answer the
410
1 anticipated question, but saying if it says I was
2 there --
3 THE COURT: Yeah. Well, that's what I said.
4 He says he can't remember who was at what
5 deposition. And I think that's very fair. So I
6 think that you need to show him and then he'll
7 acknowledge. If it says there on the page that she
8 was there, she was there.
9 I presume you will.
10 THE WITNESS: I will. And my memory serves me,
11 is Jesse and Stacy were both there, but Stacy left.
12 She didn't stay for the whole thing. That's my --
13 what my memory tells me.
14 THE COURT: For what?
15 THE WITNESS: Benetta Slaughter's deposition,
16 or the other two employees of Benetta Slaughter,
17 Katie Chamberlain, Brenda Hubert Spencer.
18 THE COURT: I still can't even remember when
19 LMT opened. Was it November, '99?
20 MR. WEINBERG: No. It was -- the office
21 actually opened on January 4th or 5th of 2000, but
22 the organization was incorporated in November of
23 '99, and so they were setting it up between November
24 and when the actual office over in Clearwater opened
25 at the beginning of 2000.
411
1 THE WITNESS: They were looking for office
2 space in November, December, '99.
3 THE COURT: Did you say it opened in January of
4 2000?
5 MR. WEINBERG: The building opened, but the LMT
6 had already opened. They were operating -- at first
7 they said they were using Mr. Dandar's office, and
8 then they were looking for space. And they found a
9 building in Clearwater.
10 THE WITNESS: Well --
11 THE COURT: They said they were using his
12 office to look for a building.
13 MR. WEINBERG: Right.
14 THE COURT: They never really said they
15 operated out of it, was my recollection, but --
16 THE WITNESS: That's correct.
17 THE COURT: -- the record will speak for
18 itself.
19 MR. WEINBERG: Here's --
20 THE COURT: Thank you.
21 MR. WEINBERG: I'm still separating --
22 THE WITNESS: So according to the Benetta
23 Slaughter --
24 THE COURT: Wait a second.
25 MR. WEINBERG: I don't have my copy yet. We
412
1 had them neatly organized in stacks --
2 THE COURT: Until I screwed you up.
3 There's that word, "screwed," in transcripts
4 again. Oh, well.
5 MR. WEINBERG: I try to leave that out.
6 What was that other --
7 THE COURT: I suppose it could be worse.
8 "Get a hat."
9 MR. WEINBERG: "Get a hat."
10 THE WITNESS: Now, where does that come from?
11 THE COURT: I don't know. It's just an
12 expression I've always used. "Take a hike." "Get a
13 hat." There's a vulgar way of expressing it that
14 people should not use, certainly, in court.
15 THE WITNESS: Right.
16 BY MR. WEINBERG:
17 Q Okay. Now, December 7th, 1999, Ms. Brooks made an
18 appearance at the Bennetta Slaughter deposition. Which
19 obviously we know who Bennetta Slaughter is. You brought
20 Mr. Brooks and Mr. Prince. But at this point, Ms. Brooks
21 was affiliated with the LMT, and you didn't pay her for this
22 work, is that right?
23 A And the notice says it's only a half-hour long,
24 so -- I don't understand that.
25 I think that's when Bennetta Slaughter got up and
413
1 walked out.
2 Q Okay. Now December 14th, '99. That's the
3 hearing -- I think you will agree that's the hearing in
4 front of Judge Moody.
5 THE COURT: I don't have that one.
6 MR. WEINBERG: Here. We might have left this
7 out.
8 THE COURT: I hope I don't have two of them
9 or --
10 MR. WEINBERG: Well --
11 THE COURT: Okay. I got it now.
12 BY MR. WEINBERG:
13 Q Now, that's the hearing -- that's the big hearing
14 that was in front of Judge Moody, in which the Sea Org
15 argument about adding David Miscavige was argued, right?
16 A December 14th of '99? No.
17 Q That's when -- that's when it was.
18 A No.
19 Q Yes.
20 THE COURT: No sense in arguing between the two
21 of you all. I don't want to hear it.
22 THE WITNESS: Oh, I'm sorry.
23 Let me think. Let me think.
24 THE COURT: Just get --
25 A It's possible. How's that? I mean, it's
414
1 possible.
2 BY MR. WEINBERG:
3 Q All right. Well, this is a hearing that you
4 brought both Ms. Brooks and Mr. Prince to, in any event,
5 right?
6 A Well, you know, I -- I probably asked Jesse to be
7 there, but I'm not sure I asked Stacy to be there.
8 Q In any event, she was your consultant at that
9 point, and you didn't pay her, right?
10 A Right.
11 Q December 22nd, 1999 hearing in front of Judge
12 Moody, Ms. Brooks, Mr. Prince and Vaughn Young shows an
13 appearance.
14 A Isn't this a deposition of Vaughn Young?
15 Q I'm sorry. No. I don't think so.
16 A Right here, December 21st and 22nd of '99.
17 THE COURT: I think you're looking at the wrong
18 one.
19 MR. WEINBERG: December 22nd of '99, which is a
20 hearing.
21 THE COURT: It was my next one.
22 THE WITNESS: I'm sorry. All right.
23 THE COURT: Mine was out of order. The next
24 one really is the 21st and 22nd.
25 MR. WEINBERG: I'm sorry.
415
1 THE WITNESS: Yeah. I'm not sure what that was
2 about, but she's there.
3 THE COURT: Just go through these, all of them.
4 Just say what they are and he'll say that she was
5 there, and then you can ask your question.
6 A Okay. So she did show up for a time or two at the
7 two-day deposition of Vaughn Young on December 21st and 22nd
8 of 1999.
9 BY MR. WEINBERG:
10 Q Okay.
11 A They hadn't seen each other for a long time, and
12 it was very emotional for both of them.
13 Q But she was there as your consultant in that -- in
14 that -- in that deposition, wasn't she?
15 A No. She was there because Vaughn was there and
16 she wanted to support him.
17 THE COURT: Well, Vaughn Young was -- was
18 another one of these anti-Scientologists, right? I
19 mean, he didn't need her to help you --
20 THE WITNESS: No. They were --
21 THE COURT: -- with his testimony.
22 THE WITNESS: They were separated. They were
23 divorced.
24 THE COURT: I understand that.
25 THE WITNESS: Right.
416
1 THE COURT: He was on the same side at that
2 time that Ms. Young was on.
3 THE WITNESS: Correct.
4 BY MR. WEINBERG:
5 Q And Mr. Young was your expert witness. You had
6 told Judge Moody that he was dying. You had announced that
7 you needed to take his deposition to preserve his testimony
8 for trial, correct?
9 A Yes. That's all true.
10 Q Right.
11 And at this deposition, we were allowed to do a
12 discovery deposition, and then you took a trial testimony in
13 January, correct?
14 A Yes. Yes.
15 And fortunately, he's actually still alive.
16 Q All right. What's your next -- what's the next
17 one there? 'Cause mine are all out of order.
18 THE COURT: The one I show next is
19 January 21st, which is a videotaped deposition of
20 Robert Young.
21 MR. WEINBERG: Right.
22 THE COURT: And I do not see Ms. Young --
23 Ms. Brooks there.
24 MR. WEINBERG: Oh, I see -- you can take that
25 one out.
417
1 THE WITNESS: Page 65, Mr. Weinberg just
2 announced --
3 She must have walked in.
4 MR. WEINBERG: Oh, I see what it is. Page 65,
5 "For the record, can we note that Mr. Young's
6 ex-wife, Stacy Brooks, is now present at counsel
7 table?"
8 BY MR. WEINBERG:
9 Q And you didn't pay her for that appearance,
10 correct?
11 A No.
12 And I don't know how long she stayed.
13 Q Okay. And what's the next one on your list?
14 THE COURT: March 15th, 2000, deposition of
15 Bennetta Slaughter.
16 MR. WEINBERG: Right.
17 BY MR. WEINBERG:
18 And that was the full deposition of Bennetta
19 Slaughter, correct?
20 A Yes.
21 Q And you brought both Mr. Prince and Ms. Brooks as
22 your consultants and they're listed as consultants there,
23 right?
24 A Yes. But I only really brought Jesse Prince.
25 Stacy just showed up.
418
1 Q Well, I know you say that.
2 A Well --
3 Q But she didn't just show up. You asked her to be
4 there?
5 A I don't think so. I asked Jesse to be there.
6 THE COURT: You know, the truth of the matter
7 is, she was there. You didn't ask her to leave, did
8 you?
9 THE WITNESS: Well --
10 THE COURT: And you didn't pay her.
11 THE WITNESS: Right.
12 THE COURT: And at that time, she was acting
13 from time to time as your consultant.
14 THE WITNESS: Yes. Yes.
15 THE COURT: So don't make this difficult for
16 us, Mr. Dandar.
17 THE WITNESS: Well, Judge, I'm not. When I
18 say -- I asked -- I mean, I have to be accurate. I
19 didn't ask --
20 THE COURT: You don't know whether you did or
21 not.
22 THE WITNESS: No. I'm pretty sure I didn't.
23 THE COURT: "I'm pretty sure I didn't." "I
24 don't think I did." You don't know. The deal is,
25 she's there.
419
1 THE WITNESS: That's right. She is there.
2 THE COURT: You let her stay. She was your
3 consultant. If you hadn't wanted her there, you
4 could have told her to get out.
5 THE WITNESS: Correct. I never told her to
6 leave.
7 THE COURT: Right. And she was your
8 consultant.
9 THE WITNESS: Yes.
10 THE COURT: And you were free to consult with
11 her, if you needed to, before, after or during,
12 right?
13 THE WITNESS: Yes. Yes.
14 THE COURT: And you didn't pay her.
15 That's all this is trying to establish.
16 THE WITNESS: Okay.
17 THE COURT: Whatever work that was. Okay?
18 THE WITNESS: All right.
19 BY MR. WEINBERG:
20 Q And the last one --
21 THE COURT: -- is a transcript of a proceeding
22 before Mr. Moody -- I'm sorry -- Judge Moody on May
23 the 3rd of 2000. And of course, I don't know what
24 it was, but it's a -- some proceeding, May of 2000.
25
420
1 BY MR. WEINBERG:
2 Q And Ms. Brooks shows again and -- in addition to
3 Mr. Prince and Mr. Haverty, who's --
4 THE COURT: And Dr. Garko.
5 THE WITNESS: Yes.
6 BY MR. WEINBERG:
7 Q And -- and Dr. Garko, who are all your
8 consultants, right?
9 A Yes.
10 MR. WEINBERG: All right. If we can mark those
11 as the next exhibit? Because mine are screwed up.
12 THE COURT: Well, Madam Clerk, if you would put
13 these in order by date, A, B, C, D, E, whatever it
14 is, by date. And it'll be the next in order --
15 THE CLERK: 156.
16 THE COURT: -- 156.
17 MR. WEINBERG: All right. Can I take yours,
18 Ken?
19 THE COURT: I'm out of paper clips, Madam
20 Clerk.
21 MR. WEINBERG: I have a ton in my desk.
22 THE COURT: Wait. My clerk here --
23 Oh, if you've got some there --
24 MR. WEINBERG: I've been pulling them off.
25 THE COURT: And the clerk and I can share.
421
1 MR. WEINBERG: Here's a few.
2 THE COURT: I've got some here now. Thanks.
3 All right.
4 MR. WEINBERG: Got a few more, rather than
5 throw them away.
6 THE COURT: Well, mine are all packed at home,
7 so I may take these. At home, all these boxes are
8 packed up and I can't find anything.
9 BY MR. WEINBERG:
10 Q Now, in that clip that we played, you certainly,
11 in December of 1999, which is right after you incorporated
12 the Lisa McPherson Trust, it certainly didn't sound like you
13 were unenthusiastic about the Lisa McPherson Trust, did it?
14 A Well, I guess that's subject to interpretation. I
15 mean, it is what it is.
16 Q And is there a particular reason why you at this
17 press -- at this -- at this proceeding or whatever it was,
18 where the press was invited, were the one that actually
19 announced the formation and creation of the Lisa McPherson
20 Trust?
21 THE COURT: I think he's explained that. I
22 think he says --
23 MR. WEINBERG: Okay.
24 THE COURT: -- he just remembers -- now, I
25 don't know, but his remembrance is he was one of
422
1 several speakers who were asked to speak, and that
2 was what he said.
3 THE WITNESS: There's no question about that.
4 I just was asked to speak, one of many people.
5 Other people were talking about the trust as well.
6 THE COURT: But this was an opportunity to sort
7 of show off the trust or announce the trust for the
8 benefit of the community and/or the press, right?
9 THE WITNESS: That's right. Even though they
10 had no office space, no place to go.
11 THE COURT: I mean, the press was invited, I
12 take it.
13 THE WITNESS: Yes.
14 And again, I had nothing to do with that. I
15 think either the trust or Mr. Jacobson, who had
16 organized pickets before, before I ever even knew
17 about the Church of Scientology in downtown
18 Clearwater -- he may have -- I'm pretty sure he's
19 the one that organized that whole thing.
20 THE COURT: Okay. I'm on my last page. I take
21 it you're going to a new topic.
22 MR. WEINBERG: Had a couple more questions --
23 THE COURT: Okay.
24 MR. WEINBERG: -- about the LMT.
25 THE COURT: Go ahead. I'm going to change
423
1 books here, but I've got another one.
2 MR. WEINBERG: Okay.
3 BY MR. WEINBERG:
4 Q Now, in addition to utilizing for free the
5 services of Ms. Brooks and Mr. Prince while they were
6 employed at the LMT, you also, at a particular point in
7 time, served as counsel for the LMT, right, in the wrongful
8 death case.
9 A Well, my answer to that --
10 THE COURT: That's a very --
11 A -- is no.
12 THE COURT: -- confusing question. You served
13 as --
14 MR. WEINBERG: Okay. I'll make it --
15 THE COURT: -- counsel for LMT in the wrongful
16 death case.
17 MR. WEINBERG: I'll --
18 THE COURT: Clarify it.
19 MR. WEINBERG: I'll make it -- I'll make it
20 clear.
21 THE COURT: All right.
22 BY MR. WEINBERG:
23 Q It's true that you appeared as counsel for LMT.
24 A The answer to that broad question is no. There
25 may have been one time I went to Judge Penick because they
424
1 didn't have a lawyer and they needed someone desperately for
2 the injunction suit. And I may have been there, but I don't
3 remember -- unless you show me something, I don't ever, ever
4 remember representing LMT in the wrongful death case of Lisa
5 McPherson.
6 Q Well, let's start with the wrongful death case
7 and -- let's do that.
8 MR. WEINBERG: If I can approach?
9 THE COURT: You may. If you've got more than
10 one --
11 MR. WEINBERG: Well, this is -- this is --
12 THE COURT: Let's --
13 MR. WEINBERG: -- a little different, Judge,
14 procedure.
15 THE COURT: Okay.
16 BY MR. WEINBERG:
17 Q Now, this Judge Penick appearance had to do
18 with --
19 This was on March 24th, 2000, right?
20 A Yes.
21 Q And you're shown here as the attorney for the
22 McPherson Trust. And you actually appeared in court that
23 day and said, on page 4, "Yes, sir. For the record, my name
24 is Ken Dandar, and I represent the Lisa McPherson Trust,
25 Incorporated."
425
1 A Well, that's what it says.
2 Q All right.
3 A That's what I just told you. My memory is --
4 Q Right. And that had to do with the picketing?
5 A Well, according to this, it had to do with the
6 picketing and -- and OSA, Richard Howd filing suit against
7 Mr. Minton to get Mr. Minton and anyone associated with him
8 to stop picketing.
9 Q And did you bill the Lisa McPherson Trust for
10 that?
11 A No.
12 Q Mr. Minton asked you to appear for the Lisa
13 McPherson Trust?
14 A Somebody did. I can't -- I don't know if it was
15 him or Stacy or --
16 Q My specific question is, do you recall that it was
17 Mr. Minton, since this had to do with -- with an incident
18 that involved Mr. Minton -- was it Mr. Minton that asked you
19 to appear in behalf of the Lisa McPherson Trust?
20 A I don't think so. I don't really know the answer
21 to that.
22 Q And -- and the reason you didn't bill the Lisa
23 McPherson Trust is that Mr. Minton was already paying you in
24 the wrongful death case?
25 A No. Maybe. I mean, really, there's lots of
426
1 people I don't bill for things. I mean, as strange as that
2 sounds. But I didn't bill for it.
3 THE COURT: Well, it's certainly possible,
4 since he was your benefactor, that you thought it
5 might be offensive to him if you had billed him for
6 some small appearance.
7 THE WITNESS: That's right.
8 THE COURT: Well, then say so.
9 THE WITNESS: Well, I -- he -- he didn't ask me
10 why. I just said I don't remember -- I know I
11 didn't bill him for it. But that would be the
12 reason why. It would be offensive. It would be
13 picayune.
14 BY MR. WEINBERG:
15 Q What --
16 THE COURT: Somebody --
17 THE WITNESS: It would be --
18 THE COURT: Somebody was giving me all that
19 money and I made a little appearance, I don't think
20 I'd send them a bill.
21 On the other hand what counsel's trying to show
22 is here you are appearing for LMT, probably at his
23 request, free.
24 THE WITNESS: It could be at his request; it
25 could be at Stacy's request. It was at the request
427
1 of the corporation.
2 BY MR. WEINBERG:
3 Q Right. There were a number of things that you did
4 for Mr. Minton: This appearance, incorporating the Lisa
5 McPherson Trust, other things that you did because he asked
6 you to do it, and you didn't send him a bill for it, right?
7 A Those two were the only things. If he was
8 involved in this hearing, asking me to come, that would be
9 true.
10 Q Well, also utilizing the services of Jesse Prince,
11 Stacy Brooks, that he was paying for. He asked you to do
12 that and you did it.
13 A No.
14 Q Didn't bill him for it.
15 A No. That's not true.
16 Q All right.
17 MR. WEINBERG: Well, your Honor --
18 A How would I bill him for using the services of
19 Jesse Prince and Stacy Brooks? I don't get that part of
20 your question. Is that what you meant to say?
21 THE COURT: Save it for argument. Move on.
22 MR. WEINBERG: I'm handing to the clerk what I
23 just -- the March 24th, 2000 cover -- the three
24 pages of this Penick thing. We'll mark it as our
25 next exhibit, which would be --
428
1 THE CLERK: 157.
2 MR. WEINBERG: -- 157. So what we just went
3 over was 157.
4 THE COURT: Oh. I called it 155.
5 It's 157, Madam Clerk?
6 THE CLERK: Yes.
7 MR. WEINBERG: 156 --
8 THE COURT: I was putting some stuff in order
9 and I put 154 on top.
10 What is it? 157.
11 MR. WEINBERG: Yeah.
12 THE COURT: Okay. Thank you.
13 MR. WEINBERG: 156 was the Stacy --
14 THE COURT: No, I got it. I just put --
15 MR. WEINBERG: Okay.
16 THE COURT: -- another one down on top.
17 BY MR. WEINBERG:
18 Q And you were also, in April -- March, April, early
19 May of 2000, representing the Lisa McPherson Trust with
20 regard to discovery matters in the wrongful death case.
21 A No.
22 Q Weren't you?
23 A No.
24 Q Well, let me show you two letters that I'll hand
25 up, that you signed, or two memos that you signed, and ask
429
1 you to look at those and see if that refreshes your
2 recollection of what you were doing.
3 Now, these are two memos that you sent and signed
4 and faxed to Rick Moxon, correct?
5 A Correct.
6 Q One is on 4-21-2000 and one is on 4-24-2000,
7 right?
8 A Correct.
9 Q And these have to do, among other things, with the
10 discovery involving the Lisa McPherson Trust, don't they?
11 A Correct.
12 Q And you are the lawyer that is communicating with
13 a defendant in this case's lawyer concerning a Lisa
14 McPherson Trust deposition. There wasn't anybody else other
15 than you, right?
16 A But I am not representing the Lisa McPherson
17 Trust. And both these memos do not even come close to
18 saying that.
19 Q No. But you're just making representations for
20 the Lisa McPherson Trust counsel.
21 A I'm relaying information given to me by Stacy
22 Brooks that, number one, on the first one, 4-21-00, no one's
23 going to appear for the LMT, Incorporated deposition.
24 Better reschedule it, because there's a conflict in the
25 scheduling. That's number one.
430
1 And the other one, dated 4-21-2000, I'm relaying
2 to the -- you know, the judge asked me -- Judge Moody asked
3 me to contact the LMT and see if they're going to produce
4 these videos of witnesses, and so I'm relaying to Mr. Moxon,
5 pursuant to Judge Moody's order, what I've been told by the
6 LMT.
7 And as you know, Mr. Leipold appeared for the
8 first deposition of the LMT, representing the LMT.
9 Q He appeared for the deposition of Robert Peterson.
10 He didn't appear for the LMT, did he?
11 A He appeared for the LMT. Mr. Peterson was the
12 corporate designated representative of a corporate
13 deposition.
14 Q All right. So -- so -- Mr. Moxon was to take this
15 as not a suggestion that you were speaking for the LMT; you
16 were just acting as a go-between between the defense and the
17 LMT?
18 A Yeah. I was relating information I received,
19 maintaining my position only as the attorney for estate.
20 Q All right. And the LMT at that point didn't have
21 a lawyer, did they, on April 21st and April 24th.
22 A Well --
23 Q 'Cause if they did, the lawyer would have been
24 doing these memos, right?
25 A No. They did have a lawyer. Mr. Leipold.
431
1 Mr. Merrett was coming into the picture, maybe. But it was
2 Judge Moody who asked me to do this.
3 Q Well, you remember that you appeared in front of
4 Judge Moody on April the 10th --
5 THE COURT: Are you introducing these or not?
6 MR. WEINBERG: Well, I was going to follow your
7 instructions. And there's one other thing that goes
8 with these two.
9 THE COURT: Okay.
10 MR. WEINBERG: Or several other things that
11 went with these two. So I was going to do it all at
12 once.
13 THE COURT: All right. I thought you said you
14 were just going to do a couple more things here.
15 Sounds to me like you've got a lot of stuff --
16 MR. WEINBERG: All right.
17 THE COURT: -- and you're into another area.
18 MR. WEINBERG: We can stop for a break now. I
19 can pick up.
20 THE COURT: It isn't a break. I told you I
21 wanted to get a new pad. I had one page left.
22 MR. WEINBERG: Okay. I'm sorry.
23 THE COURT: All right. Go ahead. Keep going.
24 I was trying to start and finish in one area, and I
25 thought perhaps we were at a good stopping point,
432
1 and you said, "No, I've got one or two questions."
2 MR. WEINBERG: Well --
3 THE COURT: Here we are.
4 MR. WEINBERG: Here I am.
5 THE COURT: Here you are.
6 Go on ahead.
7 MR. WEINBERG: All right.
8 BY MR. WEINBERG:
9 Q You -- you, Ken Dandar, was the lawyer that was in
10 court doing the argument with regard to the production of
11 tapes from LMT before Judge Moody, correct?
12 A In April, 2000?
13 Q Yes.
14 A Yeah. Because I was already getting clued in onto
15 how abusive this was going to be, and I didn't want to have
16 to spend time and time and time on these depositions.
17 Q But the