Evidentiary Hearing on the Motion to Disqualify Defense Counsel

Witnesses Michael Garko & Samuel D. Rosen

29 - 30 August, 2002 // Volume I

IN THE CIRCUIT COURT FOR PINELLAS COUNTY, FLORIDA CHURCH OF SCIENTOLOGY FLAG SERVICE ORGANIZATION, INC., Plaintiff VS. CASE N0. 00-002750-CI-20 DELL LIEBREICH, individually and as Personal Representative of the Estate of Lisa McPherson, ROBERT MINTON and THE LISA MCPHERSON TRUST, Defendants. BEFORE: The Honorable W. Douglas Baird Circuit Judge PLACE: 315 Court Street Clearwater, Florida DATE: August 29 - August 30, 2002 REPORTED BY: Susan M. Valsecchi, RPR Registered Professional Court Reporter Sixth Judicial Circuit ---------------------------------------­ HEARING (VOLUME I) ---------------------------------------­ Pages 1 - 192 (Excluding Index.) ROBERT A. DEMPSTER & ASSOCIATES (727) 443-0992  APPEARANCES F. WALLACE POPE, JR., ESQUIRE SAMUEL D. ROSEN, ESQUIRE JOHNSON, BLAKELY, POPE, BOKOR, RUPPEL & BURNS Post Office Box 1368 Clearwater, Florida 33757 (727) 461-1818 Attorney for Plaintiff WILLIAM B. HILL, JR., ESQUIRE PAUL, HASTINGS, JANOFSKY & WALKER 600 Peachtree STreet, NE, Suite 2400 Atlanta, Georgia 30308-2222 Attorney for Witness Samual Rosen KENNAN GEORGE DANDAR, ESQUIRE THOMAS DANDAR, ESQUIRE DANDAR & DANDAR P.O. Box 24597 Tampa, Florida 33623 Attorney for Dell Leibreich LANSING SCRIVEN, ESQUIRE 442 W. Kennedy Boulevard, Suite 280 Tampa, Florida 33606 Attorney for. Witness Michael Garko 3 WITNESS PAGE MICHAEL GARKO INDEX OF WITNESSES DIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. DANDAR 25 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. ROSEN 88 REDIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. DANDAR 115 SAMUEL DAVID ROSEN, ESQUIRE DIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. DANDAR 128 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. HILL 160  P R 0 C E E D I N G S THE COURT: All right. We're here to continue the evidentiary hearing on the motion to disqualify Defense Counsel. MR. ROSEN: Thank you, Your Honor. Good morning. If I might raise one or two preliminary matters to which we have submitted some papers to the Court. The first one is -- was a short motion that we submitted a couple of days ago entitled Plaintiff's Motion for Relief From Kennan Dandar's and Tom Dandar's Contumacious Conduct. I don't know -- has Your Honor had a chance to read that? THE COURT: Yes. MR. ROSEN: Okay. I would -- as Your Honor knows, one of the remedies we're seeking is a time limit to Mr. Dandar's defense, apart from any other remedies that Your Honor may impose, for the activity which occurred before Judge Barton respecting the conflict, so I would suspect that that's probably a good starting point for today, that motion, if I may ask Your Honor ahead of time -- I'm not going 5 to argue it. Everything we have to say we've put in our papers. THE COURT: Well, I'm going to consider the circumstances regarding the conflict and the matters that were contained in the motion and the transcripts of the hearings before Judge Barton. I don't have any particular desire at this point to do anything about it. I'm going to -- you know, we're going to see this hearing through and receive all of the relevant testimony that needs to be received on the part of either party, and then it will be resolved along with everything else. So I'm not going to lay down any markers at the beginning of this process regarding how it's to be effected. MR. ROSEN: I take it from your comment that the markers refers to time limits. THE COURT: Right. MR. ROSEN: Okay. If I could then move on to the next two, which are related. We filed bench memorandums. One is concerning exclusion of testimony respecting alleged conversations with Robert Minton, and 6 the second is a memorandum to exclude Mr. Dandar's defense as irrelevant. They are related matters. I don't know if Your Honor has had a chance to review those. THE COURT: Just briefly. I just got them a couple days ago. MR. ROSEN: Okay. Well, they're kind of short, but let me walk you through what the problem is. On the assumption that what was going to happen before this Court has some similarity to what happened during 35 days before Judge Schaeffer, Mr. Dandar's case in defense, as we understand it, is to call witnesses, including Mr. Prince, himself, to testify to conversations they had with Mr. Minton. The, quote, defense that Mr. Dandar is presenting or at least we expect that he will, because it's what he presented to Judge Schaeffer, is that in these conversations which occurred after the settlement meetings in March and April, Mr. Minton allegedly made comments and admissions -- I shouldn't say admissions -- comments -- to Mr. Dandar and to 7 Mr. Prince which they interpret as he threatened them, as we threatened them and Mr. Minton in the settlement meetings, both church representatives and attorneys threatened Mr. Minton. And I assume Mr. Dandar is offering that to demonstrate collaterally something respecting Mr. Minton's testimony. We have three points to make on that, and I think this is going to cover all of the evidence that Mr. Dandar has to present, except for perhaps himself. His entire case, as we understand it, is this, based on the witnesses he identified, including me: Here's the history of this, and here's why we think this evidence is excluded. First of all, it's not relevant to any issue in this case. What we're trying, as Your Honor knows, are discrete and-very specific acts of misconduct by Mr. Dandar. What Mr. Minton allegedly said to Mr. Dandar and Mr. Prince, which they interpreted as being some sort of a threat, is not relevant to these issues.  Secondly, as we set forth in the first of these briefs -- the bench memorandum, rather --­the one that is entitled Plaintiff's Testimony -- excuse me -- Plaintiff's Bench Memorandum to Exclude Dandar's defense, that's where we argue the relevance in the second one. We argue as follows: Mr. Minton was on the witness stand before Your Honor. He is no longer here. And not surprisingly, Florida is not to his liking. To the extent he was asked when he was before you on the witness stand of any conversations he had along these lines, supposedly this defense, he denied them. More importantly, to the extent he was asked, this is a collateral matter. And I think the law is that you cannot impeach a witness on a collateral matter by offering extraneous evidence, i.e., other witnesses. THE COURT: Since when is Mr. Minton's credibility a collateral matter? MR. ROSEN: No. The credibility is not the collateral matter. Mr. Minton's credibility is certainly an important matter, not anything but collateral, but the collateral  issue is whether or not Mr. Minton says something to Mr. Dandar or Mr. Prince, you know, which they interpret as meaning the Church of Scientology threatened me. That's not -­that is collateral. That doesn't go to Mr. Minton's credibility. The second aspect is as follows: I think the law since Queen's Bench that if you want to impeach a witness, you must confront them, give them an opportunity and say in effect, "Didn't you tell me X?" Okay? To the extent that they did ask him about it, that's a collateral impeachment. To the extent that they offer evidence of any conversations with Mr. Minton that they did not ask him about when they were on the stand -- when he was on the stand -- that violates the fundamental rule that you cannot impeach a witness without first confronting him with the statements. So we have it in two different compartments, depending on whether the information to be elicited is something that was addressed in Mr. Dandar's cross-examination of Mr. Minton before you or not.  I don't know what the testimony is, so I can only tee up the categories, if you will. It's going to be one of those two. If it's the first one, we think it's collateral. If it's the second one, clearly it cannot be offered. Now, let me get to the bottom of this. And as we understand it from the proceedings before Judge Schaeffer, Mr. Dandar's defense is as follows: In meetings, settlement meetings held between the Church and its Counsel and Mr. Minton and Ms. Brooks and Mr. Minton's counsel starting in my office on the 28th of March and continuing into the month of April, Mr. Dandar's allegations before Judge Schaeffer was that we threatened Mr. Minton, we somehow pressured him to provide -- to bear false witness against Mr. Dandar. That may be relevant, as Your Honor indicated, to the extent it goes to the credibility of Mr. Minton, but I remind Your Honor that most of the evidence in this case has nothing to do with credibility. It's documents that existed long before, whether it be Mr. Minton's checks, whether it be Mr. Dandar's letters, notes, et cetera, his briefs, his statements to the courts. But I want to go beyond that for a moment. There were six people at the meeting in my office, a representative of the church and two attorneys, myself and Ms. Yingling. Across the other side of the table were Mr. Minton, Ms. Brooks and Mr. Minton's attorney, Mr. Jonas, from the firm of Hale and Dorr in Boston. Six people at this meeting. Mr. Dandar has alleged before Judge Schaeffer that at this meeting Mr. Minton was threatened. Let me tell you what's happened so far because I'm going to ask you to have Mr. Dandar, if you're going to allow him to pursue this defense, to make a proffer. Number one, Judge Schaeffer asked if the attorneys would be willing to-waive their work product privilege with respect to the notes at that meeting. All three attorneys waived. Myself, Ms. Yingling and Mr. Minton's attorney waived our work product privilege and produced the notes. There's nothing in there 12 about threats. Mr. Dandar persisted, "I know they threatened him. That's my claim. I don't have any evidence. I wasn't at the meeting." The next thing that happens is three of the six people at the meeting have testified. Mr. Minton testified both before you and before Judge Schaeffer emphatically denying that there were no threats, no promises, no coercion, nothing addressed to him. Ms. Brooks, who did not testify before you but did testify before Judge Schaeffer, said the same thing, "I was at those meetings, no threats, nothing." Ms. Yingling, an attorney for the church testified before Judge Schaeffer, "I was there. There were never any threats." Now, does that mean that he cannot call the other people who were at the meeting, including me? Because Your Honor knows he said last time I'm his first witness. Not necessarily. But it would strike me that in this context, if Mr. Dandar wants to allege -- continue to allege -- without any 13 evidence, no good-faith belief, as far as I'm concerned, that anything was said, either by my client or by the attorneys, myself included, at this meeting, which was in any way inappropriate by way of a threat or coercion, I would ask you to ask Mr. Dandar to make a good-faith proffer. And that not only applies to my testimony -- and I'm perfectly willing to testify. As Your Honor knows, one of my partners, Mr. Hill, is here to represent me in case I have to testify. But Mr. Dandar is apparently going to call a series of witnesses, and I would ask that Your Honor ask him to make a good-faith proffer. If Mr. Dandar is going to stand here and tell you, "I have a good-faith belief," I will use myself as an example, "that if Mr. Rosen takes the witness stand, he's-going to admit that he threatened Mr. Minton," that's fine. Let him make the good-faith proffer, and Your Honor can deal with whether or not that is good faith after the testimony is in. But so far, what has happened is just this 14 endless thing of Mr. Dandar making accusations of what happened in these meetings that neither he was in nor any of his witnesses were in, and he just makes acquisitions of misconduct against attorneys. He's made acquisitions against Mr. Pope. Mr. Pope was not even there, and he complained that Mr. Pope threatened Mr. Minton. And I think there comes a point in time -- I'm not asking you necessarily to cut him off, because I understand that given the seriousness and the nature, perhaps, as Your Honor said a moment ago, 'you should hear all of the relevant evidence, but I think it is appropriate, as Mr. Dandar is going to call a parade of these so-called defense witnesses all addressing one issue, supposed threats to Mr. Minton, that he make a proffer of what he intends to offer, and Your Honor can then determine whether it's relevant, whether it is hearsay, as we've argued. You know, a statement by Mr. Prince on the stand as to what Mr. Minton told him is hearsay, pure and simple. And I think it would benefit the process, 15 then, if Your Honor is going to consider any of this, that we start with each witness, including myself, with Mr. Dandar making a proffer. I thank Your, Honor. MR. DANDAR: Judge, I would like to not follow his suggestion. I would like the Court to permit me to call Dr. Garko, my former trial jury consultant in the wrongful death case, who is sitting here with his attorney, paying his attorney to sit here. He's a witness. Dr. Garko was not a party to the New York meetings. Dr. Garko was a party to conversations with Mr. Minton after the meetings commenced here in Clearwater. I also ask you to make a note and have Mr. Rosen produce anywhere in any record of Judge Schaeffer's where I accused Mr. Pope of extorting Mr. Minton. Mr. Pope states he was not at any of the meetings, and that's where we left it. We didn't go accuse him of something. He said he wasn't at the meetings. We took him at his word. I would like to start with Dr. Garko so he can get on and get off the stand. He is from 16 Northeast Tampa, and I hate to have him sit here while we argue this while his attorney is present. THE COURT: I can't recall. Did you confront Mr. Minton with these alleged statements that he made to Mr. Garko at the time that he was on the stand testifying? Mr. DANDAR: No, at that time we did not know that Mr. Minton had secretly met with Dr. Garko. Dr. Garko also secretly met with Sandy Weinberg, Counsel for Flag, the day before he testified for the church. THE COURT: The reason I'm asking is because it wouldn't be impeachment. Mr. DANDAR: Well, it's impeachment on this subject, his meeting with Mr. Minton which Occurred after Mr. Minton came into the contempt hearing on April 9th. His meeting resulted in conversations concerning Mr. Minton soliciting from Dr. Garko an agreement to testify that this so-called secret meeting took place in my office to add on David Miscavige, and Dr. Garko testified - THE COURT: Why isn't this all hearsay? Mr. DANDAR: It's not hearsay because, 17 number one, Mr. Minton is a party in this case, and it's a statement against interest. It's an admission against interest. When he files an affidavit in your court this secret meeting and there’s a witness - - he says that Dr. Garko was there - Dr. Garko is going to testify under oath it didn't happen, it never happened, and that's impeachment of, number one, of a party and, number two, of their only -- their prize witness. Their whole foundation of their motion rests on Mr. Minton. THE COURT: I wouldn't say their whole foundation rests on Mr. Minton. Mr. DANDAR: Okay. THE COURT: Mr. Rosen? MR. ROSEN: Yes, Your Honor. The history is as follows: At the time of the hearing when the hearings commenced before you and in April at the resumption of the contempt hearing, Dr. Garko was trial consultant engaged by Mr. Dandar. When those hearings resumed and we started formally the disqualification hearing on the 18 19th of April, Dr. Garko was sitting here at counsel table with Mr. Dandar. They cross-examined -- Mr. Lirot cross-examined Mr. Minton on the witness stand on the 19th before you. Mr. Minton testified to that meeting. You will remember the meeting. He flew down here, was picked up, he came to Mr. Dandar's office, they talked about the strategy of amending to add Mr. Miscavige, went down the elevator, Mr. Dandar then went to Mr. Minton and Ms. Brooks, and Mr. Dandar allegedly said this meeting never happened, et cetera. He sat here. Any conversation he had that Dr. Garko could offer that he had with Mr. Minton, they could have asked Mr. Minton about when he was here and they didn't. You asked a question of Mr. Dandar, let me answer it. I don't pretend to have memorized the entire transcript of the proceedings before you, but to my knowledge, there was never any question asked about any conversation with Mr. Garko, at all. 19 THE COURT: We've established that it's not impeachment, but that it's not - that it’s not admissable hearsay because it's it's an admission against - or it’s an admission by a party, which is Mr. Minton. MR. ROSEN: Yes and we anticipated that. If Your Honor could turn to our bench memorandum concerning Exclusion of Testimony Respecting Alleged Conversations with Robert Minton, you will see that we start out asserting that this is hearsay, and we anticipate in this - on page 3 we say the evidence is hearsay. THE COURT: It's obviously hearsay. MR. ROSEN: Yeah. And we anticipate this, as we go further on into the brief, we say, okay, on Pages 4 and 5, the only possible hearsay exceptions that Mr. Dandar could argue are either admission, party, which pertains to a party, or declaration against interest, which pertains to a non-party. As Your Honor knows, admissions and declarations against interests have one thing in common. They have to consist of a statement  20 which would -- a person would not make because it would subject them to some sort of liability, civil liability, criminal liability. THE COURT: This isn't a declaration against interest. MR. ROSEN: Say again. THE COURT: This is not -- these alleged statements would not be declarations against interests. MR. ROSEN: That's correct. THE COURT: And I don't think they suggested that they were. They suggested that these were admissions by parties. Why don't you address that. MR. ROSEN: Okay. And my response to that is they are not admissions because they don't admit anything. Mr. Minton is saying this is what I did and this is what happened at the meeting with Mr. Dandar. If it is offered as an admission through Dr. Garko of a conversation that occurred and they didn't ask him about it, we're back to the Queen's Bench Rule. You should have confronted him with it when he was on the witness stand. But let me give you, perhaps, a more 21 important proposition. Mr. Minton, while he is a, quote, party in the breach case before you in the sense that we have amended to add him as a defendant, he is not a, quote, party to this proceeding. This is a proceeding to disqualify Mr. Dandar as counsel for Ms. Liebreich. And I would suggest, Your Honor, consistent with your own ruling on April 9th, that Mr. Dandar was not a party to the contempt proceeding against Mr. Minton. If you remember, when Thomas Dandar tried to cross-examine him on the 9th, Your Honor said, "You're not a party this is a contempt proceeding. It's between the Plaintiff and Mr. Minton," and of course the Court. That's the same situation here. This is a proceeding to disqualify Mr. Dandar. Mr. Minton, while he is a party in the underlying case, is not a party to this proceeding. So even if you looked at it in the broadest light as an admission, even though they never confronted him with it, it can't come in as an admission of a party because he's 22 not a party here. And that's why we treated it in our brief in the alternative. If he's not a party here, then the only exception is a declaration against interest. And as Your Honor knows, a declaration against interest requires that the witness say something which would be against his own interest, which would, for example, subject him to civil or criminal liability. There is nothing to that effect that's, in fact, one of the reasons Your Honor to have Mr. Dandar make the proffer, because what you're going to hear is not anything about Mr. Minton making a statement of declaration against interests that, "God, I committed fraud," or I did this or I did that. THE COURT: I don't want to hear anymore about declarations against interests. I've already told you that that's not the exception here, so we don't need to argue that. MR. ROSEN: Well, if what he's asserting is admission, for the reasons I stated, including that admissions only apply to parties and Mr. Minton is not a party to these 23 proceedings for disqualification of Mr. Dandar. THE COURT: All right. I'm going to go ahead and allow the testimony. It appears to me that under 9802, it would be an admission, and it's the party's own statement. So do you want to call the witness? Mr. DANDAR: Yes, thank you. We call Dr. Michael Garko. MR. ROSEN: Your Honor, while Mr. Garko is coming forward, there's one other thing I forgot. We had indicated we were going to rest, we don't have anymore witnesses. However, we do have some additional exhibits to offer. What we've done, Your Honor, is we have two volumes for you. Volume I are just another copy of all of the exhibits that have already been received. Volume II -- and we've given these to Mr. Dandar -- are exhibits that we're offering. Some of them were identified earlier, but I forgot to move them in, and some of them came up afterwards in the Judge Schaeffer hearing. I'm offering these exhibits as part of our case, and we rest. And if Mr. Dandar wants to 24 take a few minutes to read them during a break, that's fine. But Volume I is what's already been received and Volume II is what we're offering. THE COURT: Well, you don't have to worry about offering them out of order, but I do think that Mr. Dandar ought to have an opportunity to take a look at them before the Court receives MR.ROSEN: Sure. THE COURT: I've already got the stuff you -- there were two volumes basically. MR. ROSEN: Yeah, they include ones that I forgot to move into evidence, so the ones -- this Volume I is the ones that are already in -- THE COURT: All right. MR. ROSEN: -- as we reviewed the transcript. And these are the ones that we will offer. Mr. Dandar can review them. MR. DANDAR: We would object to any new evidence since they already rested, and we would also object to, after they rested, moving exhibits into evidence. THE COURT: I've already told them I'm 25 going to allow them to open up their case and put this in if it's relevant and otherwise admissible, so let's proceed with the witness. MR. SCRIVENER: Good morning, Judge. I'm Lance Scrivener, Counsel for Mr. Garko. MICHAEL GARKO, called as a witness, having been duly sworn, testified as follows: DIRECT EXAMINATION BY Mr. DANDAR: Q. Good morning. Please state your full name. A. Michael Garko. Q. And what is your occupation? A. I'm a trial and jury consultant and a professor. Q. And professor on what subject? A. Communication. Q. What is the extent of your education? A. I have a bachelor's degree in communication, mass communication, with an emphasis in public relations. I have a bachelor's degree in humanities. I have a master's degree in communication and I have a Ph.D. in communication theory and research. Q. When did you start -- when did I retain you as my jury trial consultant? A. My recollection is somewhere at the end of '98, beginning of 1999. 26 Q. In what case was that? A. This case. I beg your pardon. The wrongful death case, Lisa McPherson case. Q. And from that moment on, you continued and practiced as my jury trial consultant, not only in the Lisa McPherson wrongful death case, but other cases, correct? A. That's correct. Q. And did there come a point in time when you ceased being my jury trial consultant on that wrongful death case of Lisa McPherson or any other case? A. Yes. Q. And when did that occur? A. You're asking me when did I perceive -­ Q. When did you. give me notice that you resigned? A. I sent you a letter not long ago telling you that I formally resigned from the Lisa McPherson wrongful death case. Q. That was after you testified before Judge Schaeffer? A. That's correct. Q. Okay. Now, during the course of the litigation in the wrongful death case, you came to know Robert Minton, correct? A. I did. Q. And during the course of the litigation of the 27 wrongful death case, would you ever contact Robert Minton without my permission? A. I don't have any recollection of ever calling him. With respect to your permission, I did that as a matter of protocol for myself. I didn't think I needed your permission either to call or not to call. I just did that because I wanted to focus on the matters of the case. I didn't want to interact with him or, in fact, the client. Q. Who was in control of the wrongful death case from the moment you started until today? MR. ROSEN: Objection, no foundation, calls for a conclusion. BY MR. DANDAR: Q. Based on your observations and experience in working with me -- well, let's back up. How often would you work with me on the wrongful death case? A. Well, over the three-year period, in those three years I worked with you almost every day. Q. And would you attend all of the depositions? A. I think I attended the lion's share of the depositions in that case, as well as hearings. Q. Would you attend the hearings? A. Yes. Q. And would you from time to time -- would you and I 28 go over to the Lisa McPherson Trust office and stop in and say hello? A. Yes, we did. Q. Okay. And did you meet Dell Liebreich, the personal representative of the estate? A. I did meet her. Q. Okay. Based upon your experience in working with me in the wrongful death case of Lisa McPherson, who was in control of the case? MR. ROSEN: Same objection. THE COURT: Overruled. THE WITNESS: The client. BY MR. DANDAR: Q. And who is the client? A. Ms. Liebreich. Q. Okay. Did Robert Minton, as far as you know, exercise any control over the wrongful death case? MR. ROSEN: Objection. THE COURT: Overruled. THE WITNESS: Not to my knowledge. I guess I'm -- what do you mean by control? If you could tell me what you mean by the control issue, I think I understand what you mean, but... BY MR. DANDAR:  Q. Okay. Control meaning directing me to do things in the case. MR. ROSEN: Objection. That's irrelevant. That's not the issue. MR. DANDAR: Well, I'm at a disadvantage on what the issues are, Judge, because the Motion to Disqualify hand-delivered to my brother on April 8th during Robert Minton's deposition did not specify any grounds for disqualification. And as we had a hearing on the 19th and the 30th of April before you, things just kind of blossomed. And when we went to Judge Schaeffer, they even grew even more. Now, they did file a Statement of Issues, I think, maybe two or three days ago, but you haven't ruled on that so I don't know what the issues are quite frankly, so... THE COURT: Well, the issue is whether you should be disqualified. You certainly can't be disqualified for representing your client, okay, so I think you know what the issues are. The issues are did you suborn perjury, did you file false affidavits, did you violate the canons of ethics. Those are the issues. 30 again There's no mystery about that. MR. DANDAR: But when they're objecting, they're saying it's outside the issues. If I violated the canons of ethics, they haven't stated until maybe two days ago where they're coming from on that. THE COURT: Well, I think it's fairly obvious. MR. ROSEN: Your Honor -- MR. DANDAR: It's not obvious to me. THE COURT: Maybe you ought to read that again. MR. DANDAR: If you're ruling that those are the issues -- THE COURT: I'm not ruling anything. You said you don't know where they're coming from. They've said where they're coming from, so it's no mystery. If you want to address that, fine. If you want to address something where they're not coming from, I don't know why you would want to do that. MR. DANDAR: I'm trying to be very cautious because this is a very serious allegation. It's a broad allegation against me 31 personally. THE COURT: Well, I think that in terms of the issues, I think that they have self-restricted the issues down to the ones that they set out in the document that I received a few days ago, and it seems to me that if that's what they think the issues are and the ones that they are going to be hanging their hat on, maybe those are the ones you ought to address rather than some issue that they don't think is relevant. MR. DANDAR: That's fine. The reason why I'm being so cautious -- the next reason I'm being so cautious is because I don't want Dr. Garko to leave the stand and they say, well, here's another issue you can use, Judge, and then I don't have any testimony. That's all. So I will go with that statement by the Court. MR. ROSEN: Your Honor, if I may just say a word, just to remind Mr. Dandar -- he's apparently forgotten something -- our original Motion to Disqualify Mr. Dandar, which I believe was served on April 8th and 9th, when we came to the hearing Your Honor indicated on 32 objection by Mr. Dandar that that was insufficient because given the gravity of the circumstances, Mr. Dandar was entitled to something much more by way of specification of what the misconduct was. And Mr. Pope, I remember, jumping up and saying, "Your Honor, you're absolutely right; he's entitled to know precisely what the specifications are, almost like an indictment, you know, here are the specifications of misconduct, et cetera, and we will do that." And apparently Mr. Dandar has forgotten that before we resumed before you on April 19th we served them and filed them and he has had it all of this time. THE COURT: Okay. MR. DANDAR: So just for the record, I'm looking at the Statement of Issues, service date of August 14th, 2002, which was six issues, and I'm also looking at an August 28th, 2002 bench memorandum which seems to raise six issues, some of which are not the same as the ones on August 14th. So should I address my witnesses both of these Statements of issues? THE COURT: Yeah. MR. DANDAR: All right. BY MR. DANDAR: Q. Dr. Garko, were you ever involved in conversations with anyone concerning how much money I was borrowing from Mr. Minton? MR. ROSEN: Objection to the leading nature of the question. This is his witness, judge. THE COURT: Sustained. It's also hearsay. BY MR. DANDAR: Q. Okay. Dr. Garko, did you have any conversations with Mr. Minton as to the status of the money he was giving me? MR. ROSEN: Objection. That's hearsay. THE COURT: I think it's vague. I don't know whether it's hearsay or not because it's a little too vague. Can you be a little more specific? BY MR. DANDAR: Q. Did you ever hear Mr. Minton classify the money he gave me as either a loan to me or to the estate? MR. ROSEN: Objection. That's hearsay, what Mr. Minton said. THE COURT: I have already ruled that it's an admission. You can answer. THE WITNESS: Could you repeat the question, please. BY MR. DANDAR: Q. Did you ever hear Mr. Minton classify the money that he gave me over the years as a loan to me or a loan to the estate? A. My understanding was that -­ THE COURT: Your understanding is not what we're talking about. What we’re talking about What we're talking about is conversations that you heard from Mr. Minton, statements that he made, not your understanding or your belief or anything else, okay, so be very careful about that. careful about that. THE WITNESS: Okay. I never heard him use the word loan. BY MR. DANDAR: Q. Did he ever say who the money was going to? MR. ROSEN: I'm going to object. That's vague, who the money was going to. THE COURT: Overruled. Go ahead. THE WITNESS: The money was going to the estate. BY MR. DANDAR: Q. Did you see checks to the estate? MR. ROSEN: I'm sorry. I didn't hear that 35 question. BY MR. DANDAR: Q. Did you see checks by Mr. Minton to the estate? A. I never saw any checks. I never saw checks. Q. So are you recollecting a conversation and statement made by Mr. Minton over the years that he was giving money to the estate? MR. ROSEN: I object to this. This is improper. MR. DANDAR: I need to pinpoint the witness down as to what he's referring to. THE COURT: Why don't you ask him what he heard and when he heard it. Then you can pin it down that way, what that may be. BY MR. DANDAR: Q. When did you hear Mr. Minton make any statement concerning who the money is going to? A. Over the years -- over the two or three years, the three years that I was working as the trial consultant on the case, we had conversations with Mr. Minton, you and I -- and I can't remember the exact times or places, but it was clear to me that when we did talk about the money, that the money was going to the estate to fund the litigation -- that is, the Lisa McPherson wrongful death 36 case -- that was my understanding based on conversations that you and I had with Mr. Minton at various points in time over the three years. Q. You sat with me at the deposition of Mr. Minton in May of 2000? A. I believe I did. Q. And John Merrett was representing Mr. Minton? A. Yes. Q. Do you recall in that deposition, did you try to correct anything that Mr. Minton said in that deposition about where the money was going to? MR. ROSEN: Objection. THE COURT: Wait a minute. The deposition speaks for itself. MR. DANDAR: I'm not asking what the deposition transcript is. I'm asking him if he tried to correct anything that Mr. Minton said in that deposition concerning where the money was going to. MR. ROSEN: How could he correct it? He's not the witness and he's not an attorney. I don't understand the question, Your Honor. THE COURT: Yeah, you need to rephrase. BY MR. DANDAR: Q. Can you recall for us specifically where this 37 conversation took place? A. It wasn't just one conversation, Mr. Dandar. When we did speak with Mr. Minton about funding in the case, it was clear to me that he intened the money to be channelled -- or funneled or whatever, directed - to the estate to be put in trust, some trust account, and to be used to fund this case. That was my understanding. I mean -­ Q. But what were the words of Mr. Minton? A. I don’t remember his exact words, but I can tell you what I didn’t hear him say. I didn’t hear him say, "Here's some money, go have a good time.” I mean, that’s not what he said. I inferred - it was implied - I concluded - from our Conversations with him, even as recently as 2002 when we went up to New Hamphsire, the the money was to be used to fund the litigation. That was my understanding. I mean, that's as simple as it is for me. I mean, that's what it was, and that's what it is in my mind as I sit here today testifying under oath. Q. Did Mr. Minton attach any strings to this money he gave me? A. I never heard Mr. Minton - MR. ROSEN: Objection to the question, "That he gave me." 38 BY MR. DANDAR: Q. I will rephrase it. Did you ever hear Mr. Minton attach any strings to the money that I received? A. Only that the money was to be used to fund - to support the costs incurred in the litigation of the Lisa McPherson wrongful death case. In terms of any other kinds of conditions or conditions, I never heard him say that -- say anything like that. Q. Did you ever hear Mr. Minton say that I had to amend the Complaint and sue David Miscavige? MR. ROSEN: Objection. THE COURT: Wait, wait. This is leading. You know, if he's got statements that he heard Mr. Minton say regarding some issue, maybe ask him about those statements, but, you know, you can't just lead him into yes or no answers. You know, that's not testimony. MR. DANDAR: Judge, I apologize for not saying this earlier. Dr. Garko is an adverse witness. Dr. Garko used to be a defendant in this case. And I'm going to get into that now, and maybe I should get into it right now. He certainly is not a witness for me or the estate. He's an adverse witness. 39 And I don't think you know about any of this -- and, see, I'm coming from Judge Schaeffer. This all came out. So let me go down there and establish that first, okay? THE COURT: All right. BY MR. DANDAR: Q. Dr. Garko, you and I have not talked to each other since the hearing of April the 9th, that day, April the 9th; is that right? A. No. That's not true. Q. When did we last talk? A. We spoke on the day that I testified in Judge Schaeffer's court. Q. Okay. All right. Other than the day that you testified in Judge Schaeffer's courtroom, is that the only time you and I have talked since April the 9th? MR. ROSEN: I object. If Mr. Dandar is trying to lay a foundation that this witness has a reason -- as a, quote, adverse witness - has a reason to lie, the fact that he used to work for Mr. Dandar and does no longer plainly fails. If he's got some animosity he wants to bring out through the witness, it is not “I haven't talked to you." 40 I haven't talked to my son in three months either. It doesn't mean that he's an adverse witness for me. THE COURT: Well, what's the basis that you're claiming he's an adverse witness, just because he has testimony that's not favorable to you? MR. DANDAR: No, I'm trying to establish that now. I mean, that was just one of many questions that I had to establish that. MR. ROSEN: Your Honor, can I ask for a proffer outside the presence of the witness so we don't waste all day with this as to what Mr. Dandar will proffer to you as a factual basis this witness will testify to which makes him adverse under the code? THE COURT: No. BY MR. DANDAR: Q. Dr. Garko, did you meet in private with your attorney, Mr. Scrivens, with Mr. Weinberg representing the Church of Scientology? MR. ROSEN: Objection. The fact that he meets with his attorney with an attorney for the church makes him adverse? THE COURT: Nothing is determined yet, Mr. Rosen, and it never will be if he never gets to answer the questions, so let's, you know, wait until he's finished with what he claims to be the proffer and then -- or the basis for the foundation -- and then we'll hear what you've got to say about it. BY MR. DANDAR: Q. Did you meet with Mr. Weinberg? A. You used the word in private. What do you -- can you be specific? What do you mean by in private? Q. Did you meet with Mr. Weinberg at your attorney's office with your attorney present? A. Yes, I did. Q. All right. Did you have that meeting the afternoon before you came in and testified for the Church of Scientology? A. No. Q. When did you have that conversation, that meeting? A. I testified in Judge Schaeffer's court it was the day before. Q. I thought that's what I said. I’m sorry. A. Maybe I misunderstood you. Q. Okay. And before you met with Mr. Weinberg, he sent you a letter -- he sent you a letter saying that the Church of Scientology Flag Service Organization was going 42 to dismiss you from this case before Judge Baird because they had no evidence against you; is that right? A. Yeah, that's correct. MR. DANDAR: I would like to have this marked as the defense exhibit. Who marks it? Should I just mark it? THE COURT: No. MR. ROSEN: Mr. Dandar, can I have a copy? MR. DANDAR: You most certainly may. THE COURT: Which exhibit is this? MR. DANDAR: I believe it will be Number 1. MR. ROSEN: No. It's Number 3. It's Defendant's 3. THE COURT: Okay. BY MR. DANDAR: Q. Take a look at Defendant's 3 for identification. Did you receive this letter? A. My attorney did. Q. Did you see this letter? A. I did. Q. Do you have any idea why this letter was sent to you on Friday, June 8th before you met with Mr. Weinberg on the following Monday? MR. ROSEN: Objection. Calls for 43 speculation, "Do you have any idea why an attorney did this"? THE COURT: Sustained. BY MR. DANDAR: Q. Did you know that you were about to receive this letter before your attorney got it on June 8th? A. No, I didn't. MR. DANDAR: I would like to move this Defendant's 3 in evidence. MR. ROSEN: My objection is only relevance, Judge. THE COURT: It will be received. BY MR. DANDAR: Q. Let me show you what we'll mark -- in Judge Schaeffer's courtroom it was Exhibit 190: in this courtroom it will be Defendant's 4. I'm handing you Defendant's 4 marked by the Court. Have you seen that before? A. I have. Q. And what is it? A. It's a release agreement and covenant not to sue. Q. Is that signed by Mr. Ben Shaw? A. It is. Q. Was Ben Shaw present when Mr. Weinberg met you and your attorney? A. No, he wasn't. 44 Q. And who drew up this covenant and release agreement? A. I believe it was my attorney, Mr. Scrivener. Q. In the first paragraph of the release agreement and covenant not to sue, Defendant's 4, it states that the Church of Scientology Flag Service Organization is releasing you for valuable consideration, quote, the receipt and sufficiency of which are hereby acknowledged, closed quote. What consideration did the Church of Scientology receive to release you from any and all claims? A. I have no idea. Q. Now, before you testified before Judge Schaeffer, did you tell Mr. Weinberg anything differently than what you said under oath in the hearing before Judge Schaeffer? MR. ROSEN: Objection. We're not trying the wrongful death case before Judge Schaeffer here. I don't understand this question, and it certainly doesn't go to the premise of this witness is adverse. THE COURT: It's a little too vague. BY MR. DANDAR: Q. Okay. After the hearing of April 9th, Mr. Lirot who attended that hearing, did you meet with him at the courthouse in Tampa?  Q. to me in A. I did, along with you, Mr. Lirot, Patricia Greenway, and an expert witness we were using in a case that we were trying that day. They were also present. Q. When you say we were trying that day, I was the attorney in a trial in Tampa? A. Correct. Q. Okay. And after that day in court and after you heard Mr. Lirot said about the hearing on April 9th, did you and I have a discussion? A. We did. Q. And did we have a discussion both in the meeting room in the courthouse as well as in the parking lot next to the courthouse? A. We had a conversation in a waiting room, witness waiting room, I believe it was. We had a conversation in the hallway of the courthouse going to the elevator. We had a conversation in the elevator. We had a conversation down the elevator, out through the courthouse, down the elevator, out through the courthouse, down the street, into the parking lot. Q. And would you agree that those conversations were - you were very upset with me? A. I was very concerned about what I had heard from Mr. Lirot and upset with you. Upset, disappointed. Q. Did you threaten me that you were -- did you state to me in the parking lot that you were going to go hire a 46 lawyer? A. No, that's not what I said, Mr. Dandar. To give that context -- Q. I just asked you that question. A. No, that's not what I said. Q. Okay. Now, since that time, and excluding Judge Schaeffer's hearing where you appeared to testify for the church, did you have any conversations with me? MR. ROSEN: Objection. It's irrelevant. THE COURT: Overruled. THE WITNESS: I'm sorry. Repeat your question, please. BY MR. DANDAR: Q. Since that day on April the 9th when we parted in the parking lot until you testified before Judge Schaeffer, did you have any conversations with me? A.ot with you but with your attorney. Q. Mr. Lirot? A. That's right. Q. Okay. And during that time-from April 9th to the time we met at the courthouse and when you testified, did you have any conversations with Mr. Minton? A. I had a conversation -- yes. Q. Did you go to see Mr. Minton when he was staying on the beach during the pendency or after he testified on 47 April the 9th? A. Yes, I did. Q. Do you recall what date that was? A. I don't remember the exact date. It was the first Sunday following April 9th. Q. Okay. And when you went to see Mr. Minton, did he have any conversation with you concerning him meeting with you, me, Jesse Prince, Stacy Brooks in my office to discuss adding on David Miscavige? MR. ROSEN: Objection, two grounds. This not only calls for hearsay, but this again has nothing to do with the premise this is an adverse witness. MR. DANDAR: It's not a leading question. MR. ROSEN: I would object to the solicitation of what other people in this meeting said. And I remind the Court of a comment I made earlier. This witness has now testified that this meeting occurred on the Sunday after April 9th. That would have been April 14th. Mr. Minton was on the stand in this court on April 19th and cross-examined. MR. DANDAR: We11, that's another question. I will get there. 48 BY MR. DANDAR: Q. Not telling us what the conversation with Mr. Minton was, did you ever tell me that you met with Mr. Minton? A. Did I ever tell you? Q. Yeah, before you testified before Judge Schaeffer? A. I never spoke with you, Mr. Dandar. Q. Right. And contrary to Mr. Rosen's comments to the Court this morning, were you sitting here as my jury trial consultant on April 19th? A. I don't think I was. Q. In fact, the last time you served as my jury trial consultant on any case was April the 9th, correct? A. That's my recollection. MR. ROSEN: I stand corrected. BY MR. DANDAR: Q. Now, did Mr. Minton tell you about this meeting where you're present, I'm present, Jesse Prince was present and Stacy Brooks are present discussing the addition of Mr. Miscavige as a defendant in the wrongful death case? MR. ROSEN: Objection, same objection, calling for hearsay. MR. DANDAR: Judge, you already said it's admissible under 9802. THE COURT: Overruled. 49 THE WITNESS: Are you talking about when I met with Mr. Minton - BY MR. DANDAR: Q. Yes. A. -- on Sunday, April 14th, is that what you're talking about? Q. Yes. A. What did he tell me about that meeting? Q. Yes. A. He told me that he was present, you were present, I was there, Jesse was there and Stacy was there. He mentioned to me the position that I took regarding the adding of David Miscavige. He talked about that. He talked about a conversation he had with you, I believe, in an elevator subsequent to the meeting, in which you were to have said to him something to the effect of this -- no one is to know about this conversation or this meeting is to be kept quiet or something to that effect, in essence that this was not for public consumption. I don't know the exact quote, but something like that. He talked about my position regarding the adding of David Miscavige to the wrongful death case. He recalled that -- you asked me what he talked about, and some of this may be inane to you, but he talked about the weather. He said, I remember, that it was very 50 hot. He talked about it being -- the meeting taking place in your new office. Q. Which office? A. The one on -- which one was it now -- the second one, the one -- I think it was on Kennedy. Is it on Kennedy? Q. Kennedy, okay. A. He talked about there was clutter in conference room because you had just moved in there. Q. You had an office there too, didn't you? A. Yeah, yes, I did, at least for a while. He -- that's all I can recall at the moment. Something may come to me as we go along here, but that's all I can remember at this moment about what he said regarding that meeting. That's all I remember at the moment, Mr. Dandar. Q. Did you have a reply to that? A. Well, I did. About the meeting? Q. Yeah. MR. ROSEN: I'm confused; Your Honor. Are we talking about the meeting on Sunday the 14th? BY MR. DANDAR: Q. Yeah. Did you have a reply to Mr. Minton on April the 14th when he told you about this meeting that he 51 said took place in my office on Kennedy Boulevard? A. I did. I replied to his general conversation about that. I reiterated my position regarding that meeting, and I told him that it was my position in that meeting, it was my position prior to that meeting, and it was my position even on that day of April 14th, that David Miscavige should not have been added to the wrongful death case, and I gave him three reasons. And I said, "If you recall, Bob, I gave somewhat of a speech about the adding of David Miscavige and why he shouldn't be added. From a jury trial consultant's perspective, I thought it was imprudent." And I said, number one, David Miscavige shouldn't be added because -- I used the metaphor of a smoking gun -- I said there's no smoking gun to support the claim in the Fifth Amended Complaint that David Miscavige knew about Lisa McPherson being in the Ft. Harrison Hotel and giving the order to, quote, let her die, end quote. I said, "There's no e-mail, there is no letter, there is no witness, there is no smoking gun." And I reminded him, I said, and the second reason I gave in that meeting as to why David Miscavige should not be added to the Complaint was that you had struck -- I said Ken had struck a -- not a deal -- but had signed a contract or an agreement with Scientology not to 52 add parties. I said, admittedly, I'm not a lawyer, but I told Mr. Dandar -- I told Ken as I said to him -- I told Ken that you have a legal hurdle to jump here. And I'm not an attorney and I don't know how or in what ways such a contract or agreement could be legally or ethically circumvented; I just felt it was problematic for you to deal with, and quite frankly a big distraction. And the third reason I gave, which is, I felt, a practical reason, is I said nobody is ever going to be able to serve David Miscavige a document, a subpoena, or any other document to put this kind of decision into process. You're not going to be able to serve him. And I reminded Mr. Minton, I said, and as it turns out, I was right on all three points. And I explained that to him, and he said I recall you making that argument. Q. Dr. Garko, my question was: Did you agree with Mr. Minton that a meeting took place between you and me, Stacy Brooks, Jesse Prince and Mr. Minton as outlined in Mr. Minton's recantation affidavit in my office on Kennedy Boulevard? A. That wasn't your question. Your question is what did I say to him in response to his discussion about the adding of David Miscavige, and I just answered your 53 question. Q. Okay. I'm sorry. So my next question is, did you correct -- did you have any reply to Mr. Minton when he said that a meeting took place between you and I, Stacy Brooks, Jesse Prince and he in my office on Kennedy Boulevard discussing the addition of Mr. Miscavige as a defendant? A. I did talk to him about that, and I said that I did not view it as a formal meeting. I tried to explain to him my perception of what went on that day when I was in the room with you, him and Stacy Brooks. Q. So Jesse Prince wasn't there? A. I don't have a recollection of that. Q. You've read the affidavit of Mr. Minton where he describes this meeting, that he flew into Tampa especially for the meeting to come to my office with an elevator, to discuss adding on David Miscavige with all of those individuals. A. I read his affidavit, yes. Q. And did you reply to Mr. Minton on April 145h that that meeting that he described never took place? A. What I said to him was that it was not a formal meeting. I viewed it as, for lack of a better term, a conversation. I mean, he and Stacy -- my recollection is that 54 he and Stacy Brooks stopped by the office, they did go into the conference room, we did go in there, and we were sitting around talking. I didn't view it as a driven -- an agenda-driven meeting. I just didn't see it that way. I saw it as a meeting, call it. Q. Was Jesse Prince there? A. I don't have a recollection of Jesse Prince being there. Q. And was Brian Haney there? A. I don't have any recollection of Brian Haney being there either. Q. Did this take place in my old office on O'Brien, the one you're talking about? A. No, no, no, I'm talking about -- no. The meeting that I'm thinking about - no. The meeting that I’m thinking about are the -- this event, whatever you want to call it, took place in your other office where there's an elevator. I think that's Kennedy Boulevard. Q. And do you recall when I moved into that office? A. I think I do. I helped you move. Q. Do you remember? A. I don't have a real clear memory of that. 55 Q. Okay. Well, isn't it true that the meeting that you're talking about that's not a meeting -- just dropped in out of the blue and said hi kind of a meeting, get together -- didn't that occur after the October 8th '99 hearing with Judge Moody where he upheld the stipulation? A. I'm unclear as to when it happened. My recollection is that we had been before Judge Moody on this issue at least twice. I remember you filed a motion to add David Miscavige as a party, and I believe Judge Moody denied that motion and you went back. Again, this conversation with Mr. Minton and you and Ms. Brooks and myself occurred either between those two hearings or subsequent to the second ruling by Judge Moody. I'm unclear as to exactly when. Q. And do you remember the second ruling by Judge Moody? A. I do remember that. Q. He permitted us to add him on? A. That's my recollection. Q. Now, let me see if I can help you out on dates. The hearing with Judge Moody the first time where he upheld the stipulation was October the 8th of '99. MR. ROSEN: Objection, leading. Mr. Dandar testified as to when it happened. THE COURT: Overruled. Go ahead. 56 BY MR. DANDAR: Q. I moved into my office on November 1st of '99. Okay? A. Okay. Q. The second hearing with Judge Moody is in the middle of December -- A. Okay. Q. -- '99. Does that help refresh your memory as to when Mr. Minton dropped in out of the blue to talk to us and say hi? A. I really don't remember. I'm not clear. Q. Okay. All right. So when you told Mr. Minton that this so-called special meeting that he describes in this recantation affidavit did not take place the way he described it, the people weren't there as the way he described it, people being there like Jesse Prince, did he have a reply to that? MR. ROSEN: That question is complete with testimony by Mr. Dandar. Can we just stick to questions, Your Honor? Mr. Dandar is testifying about some affidavit that's not even before the Court as to whether Mr. Prince is in this meeting. THE COURT: Would you restate the question? 57 MR. DANDAR: I will. BY MR. DANDAR: Q. This drop-in by Mr. Minton and Ms. Brooks -- MR. ROSEN: Objection to the characterization of the drop-in. THE COURT: I think I know what he's talking about. MR. ROSEN: Okay BY MR. DANDAR: Q.-- that you described, present at that meeting or the drop-in, whatever you want to call it, was me, you, Minton and Brooks. MR. ROSEN: Your Honor, Mr. Dandar is testifying. THE COURT: He's asking a question. I believe that's the testimony, but I'm not sure, so I would like to hear the answer, okay? THE WITNESS: My recollection is -- THE COURT: Who was present at that meeting? That's kind of the way you ask a question, you know? THE WITNESS: I was present, Your Honor. Mr. Dandar was present, Mr. Minton was present and Ms. Brooks was present. I don't have a 58 recollection of -- THE COURT: So you don't recall anyone else other than those four? THE WITNESS: I don't. THE COURT: All right. Thank you. Move on. BY MR. DANDAR: Q. Now, at that meeting that you just described for the Judge -- A. Yes. Q. -- did Ms. Brooks make any statement about the addition of David Miscavige? A. I mean, she made several comments along the way. Could you be more specific as to -- Q. Did she say something that caused you or shocked you about her position on adding David Miscavige? A. After I made the argument as to why I believed David Miscavige should not have been added or be added as a defendant in the wrongful death case, she looked over at you and said, "And so why did you add him, Ken," something to that effect. That's my recollection, "So why did you add him, Ken?" And I was surprised by that. BY MR. DANDAR: Q. Why were you surprised by that? 59 A. Because I knew that she was the person who came up with that idea, that she was the creator of it, the architect of it, whatever term you want to use. It was her idea. And when she responded that way, it just sounded odd to me. It was like -- I mean, she was encouraging you to do that. She was the one who was making that argument. I was opposed to it, as you know. MR. DANDAR: Okay. If you will give me a minute, I will get the right one. There's like five recantation affidavits in here. MR. ROSEN: I can't hear you. Your Honor, can I ask Mr. Dandar to speak up? I simply cannot hear him. THE COURT: I think he's just mumbling to himself at this point. MR. ROSEN: Okay. BY MR. DANDAR: Q. All right. Dr. Garko, you did review the recantation affidavits of Mr. Minton? A. I did. Q. And -- well, you know what, I will just come back to that. Okay. THE COURT: While we've got a short break here, why don't you either -- you or Mr. Rosen -- can 60 explain to me procedurally how this Miscavige motion in front of me went. My understanding is that you moved to amend the Complaint to add him as a party. MR. DANDAR: Him and two corporations and two other individuals. THE COURT: All right. And then there was a hearing, and that was denied. MR. DANDAR: Yes. THE COURT: And then there was another hearing and it was granted. MR. ROSEN: No. MR. DANDAR: I will explain how it happened. THE COURT: No. There was an order saying you may add him as a party. MR. DANDAR: Yes. THE COURT: Okay. And then how did they finally get removed as a party? MR. ROSEN: What happened is this: Mr. Dandar's first motion to amend which was filed in September of 1999 was a motion to add five defendants, including Mr. Miscavige. Judge Moody said no. That motion that was filed is the subject 61 of the breach case. That was the breach of the agreement not to add parties. After Judge Moody said no, Mr. Dandar came back in December with a second motion, this one only to add Mr. Miscavige, not the other four. And he did it on the eve of the statute of limitations running out. Judge Moody said, "You want to do this, you act at your peril. This may be a breach of this contract, but you want to add him, you're telling me the statute is running out," he had an immediate hearing and he said go ahead and add him. That was the second breach that resulted in the judgment in Texas that was before you on domestication. Mr. Dandar then purported to serve Mr. Miscavige as a defendant in the wrongful death case. I was brought in to represent Mr. Miscavige; that's my appearance in the wrongful death case. I argued a series of motions before Judge Moody. One was the service was no good. Two was the motion to dismiss. Three was summary judgment. Judge Moody then ruled that the service 62 was insufficient, the service is quashed; and in view of that determination, I don't have to address the other issues that you raised. So service is no good; Mr. Miscavige is not presently in. Mr. Dandar then told -- I think it was Judge Quesada who at that time took over from Judge Moody on the wrongful death case -- we're not going to try to re-serve him. So he was stricken from the caption. The only consequence of the second one, of the second motion, which was successful before Judge Moody, is, as I said, it resulted in a breach case in Texas which is now the judgment is back before you. THE COURT: Fine. MR. DANDAR: Would you like to see the order? THE COURT: No, I just wanted to understand it. MR. DANDAR: Well, what he said isn't exactly correct, but... THE COURT: Well, it's not that important. MR. DANDAR: It isn't? THE COURT: No. I only understood about 63 the one regarding the, you know, related organizations. I presume that that was the difference, that there was a difference between an individual or a related organization in terms of the agreement or at least that was the argument. MR. ROSEN: No. The first one was to name two churches and three individuals, including Mr. Miscavige. The second one was -- Mr. Dandar's position was we're adding Mr. Miscavige not as the head of RTC, but we claim he acted in some other capacity, and therefore the agreement not to add the churches or their executives does not cover actions taken ultra vires by an executive. THE COURT: Okay. I understand. BY MR. DANDAR: Q. During your years as my jury trial consultant, Dr. Garko, did you ever see Mr. Minton interfere with the conduct of the wrongful death case? MR. ROSEN: Objection. Calls for a conclusion under the canons. It's a conclusion of law. 64 THE COURT: Overruled. THE WITNESS: Could you explain what you mean, give me more specificity? What do you mean by interfere with the conduct? BY MR. DANDAR: Q. Interfere by saying do this and don't do that, things like that. A. I recall him saying on a number of occasions that you needed to use Stacy Brooks and Jesse Prince more. Q. In which way, use them more how? A. That you needed to follow their advice about issues that were related to the religion of Scientology and to include that component or that issue in the wrongful death case, that to make it more of a Scientology case than a wrongful death case. Q. Isn't it true, Dr. Garko, that throughout the time that you were my jury trial consultant you saw Mr. Minton having no involvement in the wrongful death case, that he was aloof, as you put it, in the wrongful death case? MR. ROSEN: Object to the form of the question. THE COURT: Overruled. THE WITNESS: I have characterized him as being aloof. I wouldn't say that he was never involved in the case. I mean, he was involved. 65 He was concerned. He demonstrated that concern. He was enthusiastic about the case, and he demonstrated that in a number of different times and places and contexts, situations, if I understood your question. BY MR. DANDAR: Q. Did you ever see me follow his advice and make the wrongful death case more focused on the Scientology aspects? A. His advice? Q. Yeah. A. I was never present in any conversation where I heard Mr. Minton say, Ken, you should do X, Y or Z and then you went and did X, Y or Z. If that's what you're asking me, I never heard those kinds of conversations. Q. All right. Now, I want to show you what's already in the court record. MR. DANDAR: And, Judge, if you need a copy of this, I can give it to you. It's a recantation affidavit number two of Mr. Minton filed by Mr. Howie, his attorney, on April 29th, 2002, and I want to show this to the witness. MR. ROSEN: Can I have a copy, Mr. Dandar? 66 MR. DANDAR: I don't have an extra copy. MR. ROSEN: I'm sorry? MR. DANDAR: I'm sorry? MR. ROSEN: May I see it before you show it to the witness? MR. DANDAR: I'm going to show him Paragraph 17, beginning on Page 6. MR. ROSEN: I just want to see the affidavit. Your Honor, I object to this. This is an affidavit that was filed, the recanting for purposes of the perjury statute. And the reason -- this is an appropriate example of why I asked for a proffer. I believe that what Mr. Dandar is now going to do is to try to impeach a witness, Mr. Minton; by asking this witness if the statements in the affidavit are true. I think that's improper. MR. DANDAR: That's not what I'm going to ask. THE COURT: I don't know what he's going to do. I guess we'll wait and see. BY MR. DANDAR: Q. Read out loud Paragraph 17. A. Paragraph 17?  67 Q. Yes. A. On Pages 6 of 20 and 7 of 20? Q. Yes. A. "In the fall of 1999, I flew to Tampa Airport and was picked up by Ms. Brooks and taken to Mr. Dandar's new office on Kennedy Boulevard in Tampa for a meeting concerning whether Mr. Dandar should add David Miscavige as a defendant in the wrongful death case. "Attending that meeting in Mr. Dandar's new conference room were Ms. Brooks, Mr. Prince, Dr. Garko, Mr. Dandar and myself. "The focus of the discussion was not -- was not what the facts were concerning Mr. Miscavige, but how to pressure him." Q. Did you have a conversation with Mr. Minton about that allegation that you just read in his affidavit? MR. ROSEN: I'm sorry. What's the date of the affidavit? MR. DANDAR: I previously said it's April 29th, 2002. MR. ROSEN: Your Honor, the witness testified to a conversation with Mr. Minton on Sunday, April 14th. I don't understand the question. Did he have a conversation with him at that meeting about an affidavit that was 68 filed two weeks later? BY MR. DANDAR: Q. Did you have a conversation on that subject matter with Mr. Minton after April 9th?. A. April 9th of 2002? Q. This year, right. A. A conversation with him about the meeting? Q. Yeah. Did you have a conversation about -­ A. Yes, I did. I had a conversation with him about the meeting. Q. And did you tell Mr. Minton that that meeting did not take place as he described in his affidavit? MR. ROSEN: Objection. How can he tell him on April 14th that a meeting described in an affidavit of April 29th didn't take place? MR. DANDAR: I didn't ask him about April 14th. I asked him after April 9th, did he have a conversation with Mr. Minton about his statement in that affidavit? MR. ROSEN: Could we establish when that was? THE COURT: All right. Well, if it was about the statement in the affidavit, then it would have had to have been after the affidavit, correct? 69 MR. DANDAR: Yes. THE COURT: All right. So let's ask him that first. Did you have a conversation with Mr. Minton after -- what was that, the 29th? MR. ROSEN: Yes. MR. DANDAR: Yes. THE COURT: -- the 29th of April regarding statements that he made in that affidavit? THE WITNESS: I don't believe I did, Your Honor. BY MR. DANDAR: Q. Is the first time that you are aware that Mr. Minton was claiming that a meeting took place with me and you, Brooks, Prince and him in my Kennedy Boulevard office with an elevator, was that on April 14th? A. No. Q. When was it? A. It was the day Mr. Lirot came to the courthouse in Hillsborough County with Ms. Greenway and summarized the hearing in Judge Baird's court that day, and that was the first time I learned about a number of different things. But, I mean, he talked about, you know, this meeting. And I think he testified. I think that's my recollection of one of the things Mr. Lirot summarized.  Q. Okay. And as you sit here today, is it your recollection that that meeting took place or did it not take place? And we probably went over this. I don’t know. A. I objected to the characterization of it as being a meeting. I'm trained in such a way when somebody says you're going to have a meeting, the first thing that comes to my mind is I ask what’s the agenda, you know. It's true, there are impromptu meetings, but I just didn't see it as a meeting where -­ if he had an agenda, I didn't know about it. I just thought he was coming by the office with Ms Brooks. I went into a conference room, I sat down, we talked about various things. And this business about pressuring Mr. Miscavige came up, and I tried once again to voice my concern that we shouldn't do this, and that’s the context of why I gave my argument. So the pressuring business that I just read is what prompted me to give my speech about why this was an imprudent thing to do. Q. And Mr. Prince was not present at the meeting or the get-together or whatever it's called that you're referring to? A. I don't recall him being there. Q. And neither was Mr. Haney? 71 A. I don't recall him being there. Q. Okay. And Dr. Garko, are you aware of any agreement by the Estate of Lisa McPherson to give Mr. Minton or the Lisa McPherson Trust the bulk of any hoped-for proceeds from the wrongful death case? A. Written agreement? Oral agreement? Q. Either. A. I'm not aware of any formal, oral or written, agreement to do such a thing. Q. Are you aware of the beneficiaries, the ultimate beneficiaries, the aunts and uncle of Lisa McPherson, having any plans to use the hoped-for proceeds of the wrongful death case for any cause? MR. ROSEN: Objection, Your Honor. Among other things, calls for a legal conclusion by this witness, a non-attorney, as to who the beneficiaries are of an estate. THE COURT: Overruled. THE WITNESS: I just recall from depositions that were taken in Texas of the family, of the Lisa McPherson family, Lisa McPherson's family, there were questions about that issue, and I recall family members talking about that there was a potential to use any monies that were awarded in this case to fight 72 Scientology or some such notion. recollection of that. BY MR. DANDAR: Q. Now, whenever I would receive any money from Mr. Minton, Dr. Garko, were you aware of that? MR. ROSEN: Objection. There's no foundation. How could this witness possibly answer that question? MR. DANDAR: Well, it's a question to establish if there's a foundation. If he says no, then I agree with Mr. Rosen. BY MR. DANDAR: Q. Are you aware of when Mr. Minton would give me any money? A. Apparently on some occasions I was aware, and on other occasions I was not aware. Q. Okay. Dr. Garko, did you ever tell me that you were going to or that you did, in fact, meet with Mr. Weinberg in Mr.Scriven's office? A. Did I ever tell you that I was going to do that? Q. Yes. A. No. My attorney tried to contact you, but I never talked to you. Q. Do you know if you or your attorney ever told my attorney, Mr. Lirot, that you were going to meet with  73 Mr. Weinberg to prepare for your testimony as a witness for the Church of Scientology? A. I don't know what Mr. Scriven may have communicated to Mr. Lirot. Q. All right. Have you met with anyone associated with the Church of Scientology since you testified before Judge Schaeffer? A. No, I haven't. Q. Have you talked to anyone associated with the Church of Scientology? A. No, I haven't. Q. Are you aware of any meeting with Bob Minton in attendance where it was discussed in front of him to add on David Miscavige in the wrongful death case before we first went to court for the very first time in October to request the addition of Mr. Miscavige and to set aside the 1997 agreement not to add on further parties? MR. ROSEN: Objection to the testimony and to the question. There was no going to court to set aside any agreement. MR. DANDAR: Judge, I just can't -- I have to give you this order because that's a bold face misrepresentation to the Court. MR. ROSEN: It was filed after the motion was filed, and Mr. Dandar forgot to tell Judge 74 Moody that there was this agreement. When he got caught submitting a motion without disclosing a prior agreement, that's when he filed a declaratory motion that the agreement is no good. You don't file that as part of the motion. He never disclosed it. In fact, he accused us of breaching confidentiality -- THE COURT: So your motion that you originally filed with Judge Moody was to add parties and to set aside the agreement? MR. DANDAR: The first motion was to add parties. The second motion was to set aside the agreement. Mr. Fugate representing Flag brought it to my attention -- THE COURT: Oh, you had forgotten about it? He had to bring it to your attention? MR. DANDAR: No. He wrote me a letter warning me that there was an agreement, so I filed this motion to set aside the agreement which was the first thing heard before Judge Moody, and the order of October 22nd -- THE COURT: So we've got it straight, you filed a motion, you didn't say anything to Judge Moody about the existence of an agreement 75 saying you wouldn't do such a thing, then Lee Fugate calls you, and so you file an amended motion that does say something about it, right? MR. DANDAR: It came up in the very first hearing before the October 8th hearing, and we didn't argue the motion at that time because there was no time left, and so then I filed a motion to set aside the agreement. THE COURT: Okay. I understand the process. So what's your question to him? BY MR. DANDAR: Q. Was there ever a meeting before we went in before Judge Moody in October where Mr. Minton was present and we discussed in front of him to add on David Miscavige in the wrongful death case? A. I never attended any such meeting. Q. Did we -- you and I - ever have a meeting where we sat down with Stacy Brooks where we sat down strategized on the case of how we needed to add on more parties, for any reason? Without telling us any of the substance of the discussions, my question was: Was there any such meeting where we sat down with Stacy Brooks to strategize on adding more parties? A. My recollection was that there were various conversations at different points in time involving 76 Ms. Brooks and the litigation of this case and that particular issue, among other issues. Formal meetings, you want to call them meetings, I don't know. I do recall her advising, making arguments, about these kinds of issues. Q. I want to read for you from Page 93 of your testimony before Judge Schaeffer on that question. A. Right. Q. And the testimony is from June 11th, 2002. A. Right. Q. On Line 19, question, "Did we ever have a meeting with her where we sat down and strategized on the case of we need to add on more parties, for some reason, without telling us what the meeting was about?" Answer, Line 23, "I don't have a recollection of that." A. That's right. MR. ROSEN: Objection, Your Honor. What is the purpose of reading this? That's not impeachment. That's exactly what the witness just said. MR. DANDAR: I don't think that's what he said. I wanted to clarify that with the Court. THE COURT: Well, it sounded to me like it was exactly the same question and exactly the 77 same answer. Apparently there were various conversations, but apparently there was no meeting regarding the issue of adding parties. BY MR. DANDAR: Q. Dr. Garko, is Stacy Brooks a trial consultant on the wrongful death case? A. My understanding was that she was at certain times, yes. Q. Okay. A. You said trial consultant, Mr. Dandar? Q. Not like you, but a consultant on Scientology, a consultant in the case. A. Yes, I understood her to be a consultant with respect to Scientology matters, yes. Q. You were the only jury trial consultant, correct? A. That I know of on the case, yes. Q. Now, Dr. Garko, do you recall Mr. Minton asking me to go to his house in New Hampshire in February of 2002? MR. ROSEN: Objection. Is this going for hearsay, "Do you recall Mr. Minton asking me?" MR. DANDAR: Technically I'm a party too, I guess. I'm just trying to lay a foundation for my next question. THE COURT: All right. Go ahead. 78 THE WITNESS: I do recall. BY MR. DANDAR: Q. Okay. And do you know the purpose of that trip -- MR. ROSEN: Continuing objection, Your Honor. THE COURT: You know, I'm not sure - MR. DANDAR: I will withdraw that question. BY MR. DANDAR: Q. During the weekend trip to Mr. Minton's house in New Hampshire, did he mention anything about -- THE COURT: Wait a minute. Did he go on the trip? MR. DANDAR: Yes. THE COURT: I don't know that. You know lot about this that I don't, so try to explain it to somebody who hasn't heard it before, okay? MR. DANDAR: Okay. I'm sorry. THE COURT: Did you go on a trip with Mr. Dandar up to Mr. Minton's house in Connecticut? THE WITNESS: I did. MR. ROSEN: I think you misspoke. It's New Hampshire, not Connecticut. 79 THE COURT: It's all the same to me. MR. ROSEN: Someplace up north. THE COURT: When did this trip take place? THE WITNESS: It took place prior to -- I don't have the exact date, Your Honor. Sometime, I think, in February, I believe. THE COURT: Okay. All right. What was your question about this trip? MR. ROSEN: February of what year? THE WITNESS: Of 2002. MR. ROSEN: Thank you. I'm sorry. BY MR. DANDAR: Q. And during this weekend at Mr. Minton's farmhouse in New Hampshire in 2002, was there a discussion about funding the case? A. Oh, yes. Q. And what did Mr. Minton say about funding the case? A. I can talk a long time about that. I mean, that's a very open-ended question. Q. Well, I don't want you to talk a long time. THE COURT: That's true. Do you want him to just go on about it or do you have a specific question? BY MR. DANDAR: 80 Q. Yes. Did Mr. Minton in your presence say that he was going to continue to fund the case? A. He didn't say that. Q. Did Mr. Minton say, in your presence, that he was not going to fund the case anymore? A. He did say that. Q. Did Mr. Minton say in your presence, however, he had friends in Europe who were interested in funding the case? A. I don't know if he said it exactly that way. Q. Well, put it in your words of how you remember it. THE COURT: Put it in his words. That would be better. THE WITNESS: I recall Mr. Minton saying something like he was not going to fund the case, and then we queried him on did he know anybody else that would be inclined to do that. He said he might know some people in Europe. That's what I recall him saying. MR. ROSEN: Your Honor, I need to object and move to strike this. This is precisely the Queen's Bench type -- what I referred to as the Rule of Queen's Bench. Mr. Minton was on the stand. Mr. Dandar was obviously at this meeting. He wasn't asked 80 about this. I don't understand how he could not ask Mr. Minton, let him leave the witness stand and now bring in a witness to testify as to this where Mr. Minton is being denied of his -- and not only him, but us -- denied of his ability to have Mr. Minton's testimony on this subject? MR. DANDAR: Judge, it goes to -- and I believe -- I mean, I will go look it up, but I think this was brought up when Mr. Minton testified before you. And, yes, I'm operating here at somewhat of a disadvantage because I spent 35 days with Judge Schaeffer, so you're right; I've got all of this in my mind, and I believe -- that's all I can say -- that on April 19th Mr. Minton talked about this. I will go and double check. But it is part of one of their issues that they raise about the concealment of a May 2000 check. THE COURT: May 2002. MR. DANDAR: No. Actually, their issue Number 6 is a May -- THE COURT: Oh, right, right, May 2000, right. That's Exhibit Number 5.  82 MR. ROSEN: May 2000. MR. DANDAR: May 2000 concealment of a UBS check in his May 24th, 2000 deposition. Of course, they also argued to you on April 9th on questioning Mr. Minton that he concealed a March 2002 check from the Switzerland bank, but I don't know how he did that since that wasn't part of any deposition question. THE COURT: I thought we were talking about a conversation in February of 2002. MR. DANDAR: We are. THE COURT: Okay. So what's the May 2000 check got to do with that? MR. DANDAR: I don't want to say it in front of the witness, unless you want to have a side bar. I just wanted to ask the witness a follow-up question on Mr. Minton's comments about getting money from friends in Europe. That's all. THE COURT: Okay. MR. DANDAR: I'm told that on Page 881, Line 22 of Mr. Minton's testimony, he talks about - MR. ROSEN: Whose testimony? 83 MR. DANDAR: I'm sorry. That's Judge Schaeffer's courtroom. That's irrelevant. I will try not to do that again. MR. DANDAR: Dr. Garko -- no, that's not an issue. I'm sorry. MR. ROSEN: I can't hear. MR. DANDAR: That's not an issue. I'm not going to ask the question. sorry. BY MR. DANDAR: Q. Dr. Garko, you already said that you attended the Robert Minton deposition of May 24th, 2000. A. That's my recollection, yes. Q. Are you aware of any moment in time when I met with Mr. Minton or talked to Mr. Minton about preparing him for that deposition? A. My recollection is I don't have a recollection of meeting met with Mr. Minton prior to his deposition, that you met with him. I don't have a recollection of that. I didn't see it. I wasn't in attendance. MR. ROSEN: Your Honor, I don't want to sound like a broken record, but the reason I asked for the proffer, Mr. Minton testified that Mr. Dandar made a statement to him between the two of them. He's going into that deposition. Mr. Minton didn't testify that 84 Dr. Garko was there. THE COURT: I think Dr. Garko just said he wasn't there either. MR. ROSEN: But my question. is what's the purpose of even eliciting that he wasn't there? THE COURT: Well, I don't know, but we're somewhere, I guess. BY MR. DANDAR: Q. Dr. Garko, were you or were you not at the May 24th, 2000 deposition of Mr. -- THE COURT: That isn't the question. You asked whether or not he had met with Minton and you prior to the deposition to prepare for the deposition. That's what you asked. And he said, no, he didn't remember being with him prior to, to prepare for the deposition. MR. DANDAR: Okay. I'm sorry. BY MR. DANDAR: Q. Did you observe any conversation that I had with Mr. Minton the day of the deposition before the deposition started on May 24th, 2000? A. You talked to him, yes. Q. Were you present? A. My recollection is I think we stood in the hall 85 and chatted before the deposition, during the deposition -- I mean, after the deposition. Q. Was there any conversation from me to Mr. Minton for him to lie or conceal the UBS check? A. No conversation ever took place where you asked Mr. Minton to perjure himself, not in front of me. Q. In all of the years that you have known me, Dr. Garko, have you ever known me to ask any witness to lie? MR. ROSEN: Objection. Character witness? THE COURT: Sustained. That's not the issue. MR. DANDAR: Well, they have placed my character in issue. They're calling me a perjurer. THE COURT: No, no one has placed your character in issue, okay? We're talking about professionalism here. We're talking about your duty as a lawyer. We're not talking about whether you kicked the dog or were bad to your kids, okay? That's not what it's about. It's about whether or not you violated your duty as a lawyer and whether or not you suborned perjury. MR. DANDAR: Well, I believe the 86 question -- and he's known me since '98. THE COURT: It doesn't matter if he had seen you do it any number of times. It would still be irrelevant, okay? We're talking about this circumstance. We're not talking about some other. BY MR. DANDAR: Q. Dr. Garko, are you aware of any time where I've prepared an affidavit for Mr. Minton to sign stating that there was no agreement between the estate and he or the LMT to receive hoped-for proceeds from the wrongful death case? A. Out of an abundance of caution, I don't have a clear recollection of that. For some reason in my mind, there's some memory of that, but I don't have a clear recollection of that, so I just -- I'm not clear on that. I really don't remember. Q. All right. I think I'm just about done. Let me just check. Okay. For the record, Mr. Minton was questioned on April 19th commencing at Page 55 concerning the New Hampshire trip at the end of February 2002 and the UBS checks. My question to you, Dr. Garko, is: In the New Hampshire trip at Mr. Minton's house, did you ever hear Mr. Minton say that Ken Dandar wanted un-traceable money to 87 assist in continuing the case? A. I never heard him say that. Q. Okay. MR. ROSEN: If Mr. Dandar has a lot longer, I've got a nature call. I can hold it for a bit if he's close to the end. THE COURT: I've got a lunch call. BY MR. DANDAR: Q. One question: Did I ever represent Mr. Minton? A. I don't think so. I don’t recall you representing him as an attorney. Q. We talked about the May 24th, 2000 deposition. Are you aware if I met or talked with Mr. Minton to prepare him for his September 2001 deposition or his October 2001 deposition? A. I don't have any knowledge of that or a recollection of that. MR. DANDAR: That's all I have. THE COURT: Do you intend to cross-examine this witness ? MR. ROSEN: Yes, I do, Your Honor. THE COURT: Do you think that it's going to be a lengthy cross-examination? MR. ROSEN: No. I believe if I can take a nature break, my cross-examination will be less 88 than a half an hour, maybe even shorter than that. Let me be safe and say a half an hour. I don't want to disappoint you, Judge. THE COURT: You're not going to disappoint me. The thing that disappoints me is that it's noon and it's time to take a lunch break, so I hate to keep him here, especially keep his attorney here, but I think we're going to have to do that. MR. ROSEN: If you will just give me a couple minutes to mosey on down to the men's room, we can come back, and I'm sure I will be done by 12:30 if that's okay with you, Judge. THE COURT: Okay. Five minutes. (Thereupon, a brief recess was held.) CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. ROSEN: Q. Dr. Garko, you describe yourself as a jury trial consultant, but, in fact, you perform far greater services than a typical jury consultant who helps select jurors and looks for demographics, right? A. Yes. Q. Okay. I mean, most jury trial consultants don't attend depositions and court hearings and the like as you have; is that right? 89 A. Not necessarily. Q. Okay. You said you signed on to be a jury consultant -- a trial consultant -­with Mr. Dandar in 1998, beginning of '99, around that area? A. My recollection is the end of '98, beginning of '99, somewhere in there. Q. What was your financial arrangement? Were you being paid by the hour or a flat rate? MR. DANDAR: Relevance, privileged. THE COURT: Privileged? MR. DANDAR: It's a personal business matter between me and Dr. Garko. It's not an issue in this case. THE COURT: Overruled. THE WITNESS: Initially I was hired and I received a retainer, a monthly retainer, that would -- plus my billable hours, you know, but billable hours would certainly amount to more than the retainer, but there was a monthly retainer that I was paid. BY MR. ROSEN: Q. All right. So you were paid X number of dollars flat per month for your services? A. That's right. Q. And did that arrangement continue throughout the 90 period of your relationship with Mr. Dandar in this case, wrongful death case? The concept of retainer? A. The concept of retainer? Q. Yeah. A. Yes. Q. Did the retainer increase or -- I'm not interested in that. I'm only interested in was the basis of the payment retainer as opposed to hours? A. I received a retainer. I worked on the basis of a retainer -- Q. Okay. A. -- throughout my involvement in the case. Q. Okay. And when was it that you began to office on Mr. Dandar's premises? A. I'm not sure about that. Q. Approximately. A. Gosh, maybe a year into the case; six months, a year into the case, something like that. It was when he moved over into his new office on Kennedy, from O'Brien to Kennedy. Q. Somewhere around November of '99, in that area? A. Yes, yes. There was an office there and... Q. Okay. So you just moved in -- you started officing on his premises, and I presume you paid no rent, right? 91 A. I don't know what you mean by officing. Q. You maintained an office. A. He maintained an office. I didn't have an office. Q. And you had an office in his suite for your use. A. There was an office there that was used for the Lisa McPherson Trust, and I used that office. Q. Okay. And did you go to that office fairly regularly? A. I went to the offices regularly. I was there. Q. How frequently would you say you had conversations with Mr. Dandar on strategy issues, either in the wrongful death case or this case, whether they be adding a party, should we take this deposition, should we serve these interrogatories, anything involving what lawyers do in terms of strategy, if you can understand my broad question. And I'm just asking you for your best estimate. Did that happen once a day? Three times a week? Four times a month? Whatever it may be. A. All the time. That was part of my function as a trial and jury consultant, was to provide counsel on strategies. Q. And that counsel included being involved in questions to be asked of witnesses in depositions that Mr. Dandar was taking? A. Do you mean in preparing witnesses? Q. No, no, no, suggesting to Mr. Dandar what he might ask a witness in deposition. A. I think from time to time I did that. Q. Okay. You testified that you were hired by Mr. Dandar as a consultant in the wrongful death case. Did there come a time when you were also -- your employment was broadened, let's say, to be his consultant in this breach case? A. The breach case in Florida? Q. This case before Judge Baird in this courtroom. A. Not necessarily. I mean, specifically, I was assisting him in matters related to Scientology. To me it all sort of blended together. Q. Okay. Well, fair enough. In your mind, your services included services in this case, this breach case, right? A. Yes, I suspect that's true. Q. And you, in fact, have attended depositions held in the breach case including of Mr. Minton, right? A. Yes. Q. And you've attended court hearings - A. Sure. Q. -- in this case? A. Yes. Q. And I misspoke. On April 19th you weren't sitting 93 at counsel table; you were a witness designated by Mr. Dandar. A. That's correct. Q. So you were under the judge's sequestration rule; you were outside. A. That's correct. Q. And after April 19th, after you had ceased to perform services designated for Mr. Dandar, Mr. Dandar is the one who designated you as a witness, right? A. That's true. Q. Okay. This meeting that occurred -- excuse me. I'll strike the word meeting. I understand what you mean. A conversation that occurred on the subject of whether to add Mr. Miscavige, as you've described it -- I'm not going to take you through it again -- that conversation, now that you know the sequence of the first motion, the second motion and when Mr. Dandar moved his offices, does that help place in time when this conversation occurred? A. It really doesn't. I mean, it really doesn't. Q. Let me see if I can perhaps refresh your recollection. I believe you testified that there was conversation on the subject of, quote, whether to add Mr. Miscavige, and you spoke out that it would be a bad 94 idea for the following reasons. Now, I don’t want to be too literal with you, Dr. Garko, but I took your words, "Whether to add," as indicating that this conversation occurred before the second motion to add Mr. Miscavige. Am I understanding your testimony correctly? A. I did say, "Whether to add." Q. Am I understanding your testimony correctly? A. Understanding it to mean that the meeting took place between the two hearings? Q. Yeah, before the second motion, the motion before Judge Moody, to add Mr. Miscavige as a defendant. A. My recollection is I was making an argument not to do it. Q. Okay. Now, this is one of how many different conversations you had with Mr. Dandar -- forget Minton or Brooks -- on strategies in terms of amending complaints, you know, the five or nine amended complaints that Mr. Dandar filed throughout the wrongful death case - what is your estimate as to how many conversations you had over the years with Mr. Dandar on the subject of amending his pleadings in the wrongful death case? A. Mr. Rosen, it would be very difficult to give you a number. Q. Could you tell me, is it somewhere between X and Y 95 or it's more than two dozen or less than 2,000? Anything that would help us? A. When Complaints were amended, I would discuss with him those Complaints. Q. Okay. A. To give you an exact number would be very -­ Q. No, I don't want an exact number. I want your best approximation of how many conversations you had with Mr. Dandar on the subject of amending pleadings at various times. A. Quantitatively speaking, I could just say to you quite a few. Q. Okay. This meeting -- excuse me. I keep saying the word meeting and I need to correct myself. The conversation that occurred that you've described with Minton and Brooks and you on the subject of adding Mr. Miscavige -- I didn't hear you mention it -- was Dell Liebreich at this meeting? A. No. Q. Was she participating by telephone? A. No. Q. After the meeting, did you and Mr. Dandar get on the phone with Ms. Liebreich and get her consent to do this? A. No. 96 Q. Did you ever participate - I assume that Mr. Dandar certainly must have had conversations with Ms. Liebreich outside your presence, right? A. I assume that. Q. Did you ever have any conversations with Ms. Liebreich outside Mr. Dandar's presence? A. Not with respect to the strategies of the case. Q. Let me see if I understand this conversation. The subject is whether to add Mr. Miscavige. You've told us the opinion you expressed and why. You've told us Ms. Brooks was very much pushing this. A. Yes. Q. What was Mr. Minton's position at this meeting? A. He didn't say too much. Q. Did he express in any way to you of yes, no, maybe, on the subject of adding Mr. Miscavige that you can recall? A. Not that I can recall. Q. What did Mr. Dandar say? Did he express any view of yes, no or maybe? A. My recollection is that we debated that issue. I don't recall specifically where he came down at that point in time. Q. But we know at some point in time he decided to file that motion to add Mr. Miscavige, right? 97 A. That's correct. Q. Dr. Garko, from your testimony, I'm getting an -- and please tell me if I am correct or not - that you, indeed, were the closest advisor working basis, hand in glove, to Mr. Kenean Dandar in with the McPherson matters, right? A. I would be one of those people that worked with him on a daily basis, yes. Q. Wait a minute. Not one of these people. I'm asking you if anybody was closer to him by way of an advisor, almost, as you've described, on a daily basis. Were you the number-one advisor to him? A. From a trial and jury consultant's perspective, yes. Q. Okay. Now, after this meeting, did you participate in any discussion with Ms. Liebreich and Mr. Dandar on the subject of filing the motion to add Mr. Miscavige? A. No. Q. Do you have any knowledge on the subject of whether Ms. Liebreich ever approved that motion? A. I don't. Q. Do you have any knowledge of whether Ms. Liebreich even knew that Mr. Dandar filed it? A. No. Repeat your question again. I'm sorry. 98 Q. Do you have any knowledge of whether Ms. Liebreich even knew that Mr. Dandar had filed this motion? A. I didn't have direct knowledge. I presumed it. Q. You presumed it. A. I presumed it. Q. All right. I don't want you to assume. And when I ask you do you have any knowledge, it means did somebody ever say anything to you -- A. No. Q. -- or did you see a letter or something. A. No, I did not. Q. Did Mr. Dandar ever represent to you that he had spoken with Ms. Liebreich and she instructed him to file the motion to amend? MR. DANDAR: Objection, work product, what conversations he had with me alone. MR. ROSEN: I don't believe so. This is crime fraud, if it's anything. MR. DANDAR: I don't understand crime fraud. We're talking about whether Mr. Minton perjured or was asked to perjure himself, not about my conversations with anybody else. THE COURT: I will sustain the objection. BY MR. ROSEN; 99 Q. Now, if I understand correctly, you, in daily contact as Mr. Dandar's advisor, spoke out not only against but rather forcefully against adding Mr. Miscavige, right? A. That's true. Q. And you gave Mr Dandar the three -- I don't want to comment, but it sounds pretty coherent reasons for your position, right? A. I thought it was a good argument. Q. Okay. Now, we know that Mr. Dandar ultimately filed the motion. Did you have any discussion with him as to why he went and did that in the face of your recommendation? MR. DANDAR: Objection, Judge. This occurred after the alleged that brings us to your courtroom. This concerns after October the 8th that he's talking about. And for for him to ask him what Mr. Dandar thought or why he did something is also work product. MR. SCRIVEN: Judge, I would join the work product objection. THE COURT: I will sustain that. BY MR. ROSEN: Q. At the time that Ms. Brooks participated in this conversation, who was Ms.Brooks employed by? LMT? A. I'm not sure, Mr. Rosen. I don't know. 100 Q. Well, who did you understand her to be an agent of, if anyone? Whose interests was she serving? A. I thought she was a consultant for Mr. Dandar at the time. That's my recollection. Q. Did you have an impression that whe was being paid by Mr. Dandar? A. My understanding is that she was not being paid. Q. Now, you have -- you're aware that one of the issues in this case involved two Swiss bank checks? A. Yes. Q. Did Mr. Dandar ever indicate to you in any way, shape or fomr that he had received these checks, either one? A. If these are the two checks for the amounts of $500,000 and the other for $250,000 -­ Q. That’s correct, sir. A. -- no. Q. In fact, sir, did there come a time when Mr. Dandar told you he could not continue your retainer because he didn’t have any money? A. Yes. Q. Can you tell us when that was, sir? A. That was in September of 2002. Q. No. We're in August of 2002 now. A. I beg your pardon. I'm sorry.  101 Q. I'm going to give you a hint. It's not September 2002. A. I beg your pardon. It was in September of 2001. Q. At that time, you were still on the monthly retainer with him, right? A. I was. Q. And Mr. Dandar told you he had to discontinue that monthly retainer because he didn’t have any money? A. That's what he told me, yes. Q. Did he ever resume paying that monthly retainer? A. Never did. Q. Did he ever pay you anything after he cut you off in September of 2001? A. Nope. Q. Now, I want to make sure we understand something. You're aware now that on or about the 7th of March of 2002 Mr. Dandar received a check for $250,000, a Swiss bank check from Mr. Minton. A. I am now aware of that. Q. You weren't aware of it at the time that Mr. Dandar was telling you he didn't have any money to pay you, right? A. That's correct. Q. Are you aware of the amount of money in the aggregate, an estimate -- and I'm not asking for any kind 102 of breakdowns -- the amount of money that you folks spent in costs and expenses, experts, depositions and the like? MR. DANDAR: Objection, privileged. Violates the Second District Court's opinion. MR. ROSEN: It's not privileged and it doesn't violate the opinion. We went through this last time. THE COURT: Why is it relevant? MR. ROSEN: Because we're showing that With respect to this money, Your Honor knows our position is that Mr. Dandar stole it, and he was hiding it from even Dr. Garko and telling him, "I don't have the money to pay you." MR. DANDAR: Judge, it's not relevant because there's no issue of whether or not I stole money. That was my money. This Church of Scientology has no standing to come into this Court to say I stole money that doesn't belong to them, and they had no interest in when I had the money. THE COURT: We're getting far afield here. MR. ROSEN: All right, Your Honor. I will move on. THE COURT: His testimony was, at least from my notes, that Dandar told him he wasn't going to tell him. MR. ROSEN: He wasn't going to tell him what? THE COURT: That Dandar told him he didn't want to tell Garko about the checks. MR. ROSEN: Right. And that goes to the credibility. THE COURT: And Garko said he didn't know about the check, so I don't know why we need to go into how much money was spent. MR. ROSEN: Okay. I will move on. BY MR. ROSEN: Q. In the questioning of you by Mr. Dandar you alluded to some discussion with Mr. Lirot on the day that Mr. Minton had first testified here. A. Yes, I did. Q. And you were in some trial with Mr. Dandar in Tampa? A. That's true. Q. Do you recall that date to be April 9th? A. That's what I recall. Q. Now, Mr. Lirot came up to where you folks were in Tampa and gave you a report of what Mr. Minton had said? A. Yes, he did. 104 Q. And can you tell us what that -- I'm not suggesting you give us chapter and verse, line by line, but could you give us the substance of what Mr. Lirot said? MR. DANDAR: Work product, priveleged That's my attorney talking to me and my trial consultant. MR. ROSEN: Okay. I will lay a foundation. BY MR. ROSEN: Q. You mentioned there was some other person there, an expert witness in the case you were trying? A. I did. Q. That person is not one of Mr. Dandar's many consultants in this case, is he? A. Not to my knowledge. Q. He's not one of Mr. Dandar's supposed consultants in the wrongful death case, is he? A. Not to my knowledge. Q. And he sat there and listened to this conversation? A. That's my recollection. Q. Tell me what Mr. Lirot said. A. He summarized the hearing. He summarized specifically Mr. Minton's testimony, and he said -- and these are the items I remember; they stand out in my 105 mind -- one, that Mr. Minton testified that Mr. Dandar had asked him to lie, that is, to suborn perjury. Two, that Mr. Dandar had concealed from me the monies that Mr. Minton had given to him, one check for $500,000 and one check for $250,000, is my recollection. That he's talked about David Miscavige and the adding of David Miscavige, and he made some points about that. The things that caught my attention were the suborning of perjury and Mr. Lirot talked about misappropriation of funds, I believe. That was the topic. Those two things caught my attention. Q. What, if anything, did Mr. Dandar say? A. He said a number of things. One of the things I remember -- MR. DANDAR: I just want to object and make sure we're restricting it only to this conference room where one of my expert witnesses were present. THE COURT: I don't know-what we're restricting it to. Yeah, this is where this other person was present. THE WITNESS: One thing I do remember him saying -- and it's a quote; it's exactly what he said -- quote, "I wish I would have listened 106 to Michael," end quote. And that was in -­ BY MR. ROSEN: Q. In the context in which you said that, you're Michael. A. I'm Michael. Q. In the context in which that was said, can you please explain what Mr. Dandar said that he should have listened to you? A. That was with respect to the adding of David Miscavige. Not to add David Miscavige was my advice, and he wished he would have listened to that. Q. The advice you already testified to that you gave as to the reasons why he shouldn't be doing it. A. Exactly. Q. And Mr. Dandar said, "I wish I would have listened to Michael in terms of not adding him." A. Correct. Q. Did Mr. Dandar make any statements saying, in words or substance, Minton is a liar, this never happened, the money was mine, anything about any of the content of what Mr. Lirot was relating? A. I don't recall him saying that. Q. Well, did Mr. Lirot relate that Mr. Minton had just come off the witness stand and testified that Mr. Dandar stole the money? 107 A. That's what I -­ MR. DANDAR: Objection. That's a mischaracterization of Mr. Minton's testimony on April 9th. MR. ROSEN: Excuse me. Mr. Minton's testimony. BY MR. ROSEN: Q. Is that the substance of what Mr. Lirot related in that meeting in Tampa as to what Mr. Minton had said? A. That's an inference that I drew from what Mr. Lirot said. Q. And at that moment when first confronted with that acquisition by his counsel, Mr. Lirot, did Mr. Dandar deny it? A. I don't recall him denying it. Q. When Mr. Lirot reported that Mr. Minton's testimony here in court included that the money was supposed to be used for the estate's expenses in wrongful death and not a personal loan to Mr. Dandar, when Mr. Lirot reported that testimony, when first being told about this acquisition, did Mr. Dandar deny it? MR. DANDAR: Same objection, Judge. in the April 9th testimony. THE COURT: Overruled. THE WITNESS: Mr. Dandar listened to 108 BY MR. ROSEN: Q. My question is: Did he say anything -- A. No. Q. Did he say that's not true? A. No, he didn't say that directly. Q. And was part of Mr. Lirot's report on April 9th of Mr. Minton's testimony, did it include the event of Mr. Dandar telling Mr. -- allegedly telling Mr. Minton not to disclose Swiss bank checks because -- in deposition -- because you didn't sign them, they didn't have your name on them, or words to that effect? A. I don't recall that. I don't recall it. Q. Do you recall a discussion that Mr. Lirot reported that Mr. Minton had testified, in words or substance, that Mr. Dandar had told him not to disclose these Swiss bank checks? A. I do recall that. Q. And what -- at the instant that he was first confronted with that accusation, what was Mr. Dandar's statement? Did he deny it? A. No. 109 Q. Okay. Now, this person who was in the room was an expert engaged, I assume, by Mr. Dandar in that other case you were trying in Tampa? A. That's correct. Q. Well, Mr. Dandar knew that person was in the room, He wasn't hiding or anything. A. That's right. Q. Okay. So he knew that that -- I think you said he was a psychologist. A. Yeah, I think he's a psychologist. Q. Mr. Dandar knew that that psychologist in that room was not part of his work -- withdraw that -- had nothing to do with any McPherson case; he knew that, right? MR. DANDAR: Objection as to what counsel knew. BY MR. ROSEN: Q. Did you know it, Dr. Garko? A. I never perceived that particular expert witness to be involved in the wrongful death case. MR. DANDAR: I would object, Judge. I don't know how to do this, because actually that expert witness was involved in the wrongful death case. MR. ROSEN: Well, you're going to have to get on the stand and testify to that, sir. BY MR. ROSEN:  110 Q. Was anybody else present at this meeting, by the way, in Tampa where Mr. Lirot is reporting the events? A. Patricia Greenway, I believe, was there, Ms. Greenway. Q. Ms. Greenway, okay. Is Ms. Greenway another one of Mr. Dandar's supposed consultants? A. Not to my knowledge. I don't know. Q. Do you have any idea how many fact witnesses Mr. Dandar has designated as, quote, consultants who may not be deposed, either in this case or